Elbows or wrists ?

[k gledhill]

In chi-sao stages what do you develop to strike, elbow positions or wrists ?

Elbows allow your center to be 'occupied' along your centerline while you aim your relaxed fist at the target, head etc... as you progress to striking using each arm to do this, by simply staying at angles to the fight, your forearms create a natural barrier to your self...each arm is in striking rotation along your attacking line, elbows in striking so each can be doing the job of 2 hands by simply 'being' in the way of attempted entry to your line as your still striking in rotation...each arm striking swapping for the other , angling to allow for movement ..etc...IF contact is made by the arm your contact is made WITHOUT CHASING off your line ..economy of motion your duality of technique allows you to simple focus on hitting the guy and using no thinking reactions to keep doing that simple idea going attacking longer than he can attack you. No hand grabbing over trapping etc...doing 3 moves for a statue pose attack :D

In chi-sao on the other hand if your using wrist deflections feeling and sticking...

Wristing involves taking your wrist/hand and removing it from pointing both at the target and using the same arm to strike in ONE BEAT doesnt matter how fast you make it you wont heave ONE doing 2 actions at the point of impact ...meaning you will deflect with wrist then strike...your alignment will moving off target then back to target .
You will have a disjointed feeling between fighting /sparring and chi-sao so you do more chi-sao because you get hit less :D and become untouchable ;) a common delusion of sticky dirty clinchers.

Wrists by the nature of their 'idea' will have to chase lines of force to seek contact AWAY from your attack line and become functional by contacting first then striking...control to strike not controlling strikes, subtle difference but a world apart when fighting from no pre-conact

I was a wrister for many years so know the difference now I use the elbow development as a fighting method....elbows or wrists ?

ELBOWS

[grasshopper 2.0]

Elbows AND wrist I would say. Generally one or the other first then the other then both. Its progression from one stage to the next but it should be all as the situation requires in unison or some aspect of one more than the other. Same as shoulder, spine, legs, back, etc. Eg ur jum sao should have elbow chracteristics/pressure, some from wrist...shoulder, back, etc

[k gledhill]

if the wrists are xing the line as they strike I have no issues with them ;)

[YungChun]

It's very tough to understand exactly what folks mean in print with this stuff.. Perhaps referring to some specific position/condition might help..

To me it was always very much an interaction and dynamic that involves BOTH the position of the elbow AND the wrist... the beginning of alignment--not that structure ends there though...

If you connect the dots then you have some vector that either has the line or not... Of course, it's just as much about the energy present (how they resist) too so you have structure and energy...

[cobra]

By "wristing", do you mean "chasing hands"?

[k gledhill]

taking the hand/wrist off the strike-line/centerline = wristing

bad habit to break ...

[cobra]

Why can't the hand come off a bit, only momentarily on the way as long as the elbow is continuing the line?

[YungChun]

Why can't the hand come off a bit, only momentarily on the way as long as the elbow is continuing the line?

It can but how did it happen? It's all about the conditions...

Elbow position alone is not enough IMO.... That's not to say you can't be moved off line, but then what do you do with it?

[cobra]

I was thinking more of the focus or intent with the elbow, then even though my hand comes offline a bit, so what, then I'm cutting instead of piercing, focal point still center. Typically the deflection would only happen after contact unless it was a "surprise" action, in which case I'm just trying to get something in the way which would bring me off more like what I believe you are saying, in which case I would most likely be on center with the other hand. Hard to say, too many variables. Hard to sort out on the net. Better to "Talk" with the hands. Hope part of this made sense.

[k gledhill]

Why can't the hand come off a bit, only momentarily on the way as long as the elbow is continuing the line?


whats a 'bit' ? from what angle ?

its more about a mind set to strike attack and use whats behind the fist to deal with countermeasures. The point [fist] can be 'taken' off line by an outside action...but the following strike from vu-sao should simply fire into the space the previous action made directly , trying to make an attacking action again ...As the vu-sao strikes in, the parried/stopped previous hand re-chambers [tut sao from slt]
to become the new vu-sao ....


the line we make in SLT doesnt have a 'slight' move off the line when striking....precision in high speed exchanges will prove that...you will tend to exaggerate
actions as they get more pressured. What was a 'bit' in training ..becomes a huge gap in your lead line entry...

The stages of developing the strikes will show that the lead hand moving off the line even a bit allows your partner to fill the gap your wrist made with his rear following strike....the redundancy of having two extended arms when drilling will show you this...
the rear hand is the one you dont see ;) that you worry about ! the lead I can use to 'ask' what your intentions are :D if you hold the line in your counter strikes [ your probably training ] if you move to parry my lead strike with a lateral action then I strike with my following hand [vu-sao] to maintain the attacking entry.

Its a humbling experience to try to use wrists against someone who plays the straight line facing at angles idea....whatever you do to the lead strike they will fill with the rear hand instantly..if you use your upper body to turn with the 'bit' of hand parry off line then it gets worse for you..you chased a 'bit' AND turned a 'little' :D:D:D thats all it takes to gain entry and not let you re-face...

the fighting system is based on these 'mistakes' that are done in more exaggerated actions before us as we attack.

more pressure in training will show errors to work on for high speed precision ...no thinking...

we have drills to pak sao to the line but not chase past it ...simple hand removal 'just' as the partner is about to pak your punching wrist/forearm/elbow you take it away suddenly...how we use feints or 'blanks' to see if we are chasing with wrists or bringing the elbows to the center as we pak /jum etc...if their lead pak x's the line we can enter and 'cut' across it with our following strike to make a bridge and trap with the 'same' striking arm ....strike cut and trap by simply letting the guy chase the lead hand across the line and filling the gap he made with a counter ...by usung our forearms rather than our own lead hand we are closer , striking , parrying with the same lead striking arm etc..economy of action...havent used the rear hand yet .....
After a while the guy stops chasing the hand we throw at them with, and starts to focus on parrying to his/her line then striking forwards from the parry....WSL was known to ko guys in the same time you heard the 'slap' of pak sao ..he would instantly strike from the line to the guys head ..SLAP !!


We can use feints or sudden arm retractions to show the common use of wrists/hands to use energy with elbows flying out ...no idea of a connection to elbows parry to line....

[Buddha_Fist]

There are more "fancy" things that can be done by leading actions with the wrist. Truth though is that very few work with a skilled non-compliant opponent - there just isn't the time to pull that stuff off. Leading with the wrist may also throw you off-balance (depending on the footwork). Punching power would not come from a stable base (root), but rather involves significantly use of the shoulder / upper body rotation - that is if the punch has any power at all. Leading with wrists is a trademark of handchasing, as there is too much focus on doing too much (result is hands unnecessarily crossing punching lines) rather than simply delivering a short snappy blow.

Leading with elbow is kind of the opposite: You maintain your balance. Actions are short, quick, and simple as the elbow moves like a sharp piston that can only move in so many ways. There's less opportunity for shoving punches, as the arm goes quickly back to neutral just to follow up immediately with the next action.

[k gledhill]

The system is about elbow control....tan strike elbows spread off the line and back again to repeat...jum elbows come into the line and off as they strike repeat...SLT has this control method in the section following the strikes from either arm...Its the only time in our daily routines that we place the elbows like this...

combine the 2 and either arm only has to point along your center, facing with chum kil to adjust angles, shift...move using tactics.

Respond with little idea.

[couch]

It can but how did it happen? It's all about the conditions...

Elbow position alone is not enough IMO.... That's not to say you can't be moved off line, but then what do you do with it?

Good to see you here, Jim.

[cobra]

Kevin,

I think we're on the same sheet of music, just different perspectives or terminology. I had never heard the term "wristing" before and was trying to understand what you meant. Think I get it now.

[k gledhill]

wristsing is putting your focus of intent out at the end of the arm among other things. Placing energy at your wrists in chi-sao rolling trying to use them to deflect energy rather than adopt the elbows as SLT has shown :D.
A common mix up is to do a tan huen vu with no jum before the vu comes back, so it seems to be a wristing action to some.

Tan goes out along the line, wrist xing the line to intersect as you punch along it, then the huen to jum sao, meaning you contract the shoulder girdle muscles down and in to control the line from inside. Then relax the elbow out to bring the vu-sao back ...repeat...

tan/jum are the basic striking arm actions.....elbow leaves with tan as the fist stays on the line. Jum stays on the line as the fist strikes along the line.
In chi-sao we are doing this partnership all the time, tan strike one arm jum the other , repeating ...only we are facing each partner to make the equal reaching of them work when we adopt angles later in more advanced fighting applications....each partner gives the opposite energies to each other I strike your strike with the opposite energy in the drill iow ...you use a tan strike to counter my jum strike and vice versa. It develops a reaction to strike an attempted strike to us in no contact face -offs with a responding strike...attack an attack with an ...:D we are striking in chi-sao rotation with jum/tan constantly or tan jum as we face the dummy at entry angle with a tan and a jum elbow [sidepalms make the elbow go in as jum] we also train in the dummy the alignment of each strike with the 'potential' to strike . looks like tan and low side-palm, so a lot of guys make it a move using the tan as a block while the emphasis is on a low hand strike with a palm :o why do this relatively low percentage attack on the dummy ? simple its not a move as seen, with no information....its tan / jum facing at an angles just as toi ma in chi-sao ..we should be able to reach to strike with either arm, but with only one leading at at time , which one leads depends on your reality of angle and timing etc..striking with the nearest one will help :D

add the bong's lateral displacement to the jums bridging strike and we develop unthinking use of the bong/vu as we go forwards attacking, for it to move anything it touches sideways to our facing line of strikes...its energy is different from a lan sao which is just a solid arm bar to trap facing etc...

After the bong goes up we recover back to strike from elbows in again repeat in chi-sao to make it unthinking.

Wristing actions will develop a completely different fighter using gates with tan flying around all over the place while turning in front of your target aiming off line etc...messy.


Seung ma attacking/ counter attacking steps forwards plus toi ma steps attacking / counter attacking, angling off the line of force and from the tactical side appropriate to the entry side...using the same tan/jum strikes only adding the shifting and stepping in close quarters to maintain the striking /elbow working angles and distances to both offer ourselves a defensive attacking workout with each other...

add the random nature of the partners striking and adding random side entry and countering with stopping to check positions and strikes, balanced stances etc...and the progression moves to gor-sao and sparring...systematic stages to simple fighting with 2 free hands like any fighter we see in the ring ;) moving striking to movement before us
not magic moments for all attacks while standing like a statue doing 'moves' :D

I hear similar language with the emphasis on these ideas from G. Lam Sifu its funny how the language of the transmission can change the whole idea from aggressive fighters with 2 free hands striking , with relentless attacks, to guys who want to clinch and roll lop n chop, using 2 wrists/hands all the time chasing to control things BEFORE they attack, turning right in front of the guy they are fighting ..then turning back etc...trying to re-direct energy at the wrists...

language or information is the water in the glass that is passed down...

[YungChun]

Good to see you here, Jim.
Hi Kenton!! Thanks, what's up?



its funny how the language of the transmission can change the whole idea from aggressive fighters with 2 free hands striking , with relentless attacks, to guys who want to clinch and roll lop n chop, using 2 wrists/hands all the time chasing to control things BEFORE they attack, turning right in front of the guy they are fighting ..then turning back etc...trying to re-direct energy at the wrists...

language or information is the water in the glass that is passed down...

If I read this right, yes it is funny and also not correct use of the tools and concepts.. I agree that it's about instant linear penetration, often while angling...

Some confusion may arise when folks think in terms of bong or biu sao, etc, when the elbow is off the line for a moment.. Also when I speak of releasing energy at the wrist, this is also from the elbow position but since contact is at the wrist initially this is where energy is transferred from.. Otherwise yes when the alignment happens, and our wrist and elbow are on the line--Bang--we should train to have already hit them..

This also could lead to a discussion of 'tork sao' the use of the palm to control the opponent's wrist, instead of using the wrist/wrist to make contact supported by the elbow of course. In these cases folks seem to begin to heavily rely on this same poor wrist control concept with the elbow totally out of the mix.. That's a problem as well..

[k gledhill]

Hi Kenton!! Thanks, what's up?



If I read this right, yes it is funny and also not correct use of the tools and concepts.. I agree that it's about instant linear penetration, often while angling...

Some confusion may arise when folks think in terms of bong or biu sao, etc, when the elbow is off the line for a moment.. Also when I speak of releasing energy at the wrist, this is also from the elbow position but since contact is at the wrist initially this is where energy is transferred from.. Otherwise yes when the alignment happens, and our wrist and elbow are on the line--Bang--we should train to have already hit them..

This also could lead to a discussion of 'tork sao' the use of the palm to control the opponent's wrist, instead of using the wrist/wrist to make contact supported by the elbow of course. In these cases folks seem to begin to heavily rely on this same poor wrist control concept with the elbow totally out of the mix.. That's a problem as well..

The fist should be able to make contact using the forearms to do what many rely on / wrists for..controlling with palm to another elbow perhaps ;) but not wrist to wrist...if you parry the leading wrist in sparring it will simply be filled by the following strike. The redundant factor of chi-sao to fighting is that we will not use 2 extended arms like chi-sao...so controlling techniques based on the 'drill' become pointless game chi-sao. not developing striking etc...using forearm angles...subtle change of focus.