Chinese WCK vs European WCK

[grasshopper 2.0]

Hi folks - i've seen this clip many times and i personally love it. I've been to Emin's seminars and, although i have my reservations about him as a teacher or his personality for that matter, i don't have any regarding his skills.

BTW: let's not turn this into another typical Emin thread...

Now what i find interesting, we can take the WT lineage as an example, as the differences in how their WCK appears or is practiced. I find the european style more flowy, while the chinese style is more posey...and if anything, i find the chinese style of WCK to be very stiff in application (eg. force the tan da to work).

the lineage is the same...eg. Leung Ting..but why the different flavours between europe WT and Hong kong WT

also, what are your thoughts on this clip?

it looks completely natural, you can see how positions are clearly compromised, and it's not forced - but simply happens.

here's something i randomly pulled off Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkETsfqp5co

you can see there's a lot of static transition, no distance is closed, one line of attack, no definitive strikes, but more of who's fastest. but the body is never really compromised..the victor simply was able to "tap" the other guy...but not really control the body, the axis, or structure of the opponent.

This is not intended to be a clash of lineages..simply my inquiry between european wck and chinese Wck.

[anerlich]

Being from Australia, I have no interest in what might happen in such Wing Chun backwaters.

[couch]

This is not intended to be a clash of lineages..simply my inquiry between european wck and chinese Wck.

I know where you're going with this, but IMO I think it has more to do with the individual's approach to WC rather than country vs. country.

If I had my say, I'd say that a lot of Chun IS flicky-flicky, patty-cake-based. But even one of Ip Man's sons has been interviewed lately saying that WC is for health only. So to each their own.

I personally like Alan Orr's Extreme Chi Sau clip on utube. I think it's a good representation of where Chi Sau should be going. Why not turn up the heat? And when that temperature gets comfortable, turn it up some more. This is where I go with my stuff.

Patty cake is for a very short time frame. Then comes the hitting. :)

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ya i agree. Turn up the heat one notch each time. his chi-sao is like what WT lat sao tries to bring in, but a little bit more controlled - stress, different lines of attack, etc.

I like the idea of the clip of Alan Orr (had to take a look upon your response). Based on the clip, he is using his number one asset - his size. Also, he keeps the opponent at a punching/striking distance. I ask- where's the mobility of closing or opening that distance, etc. I think that's potentially a result of him relying on his size all the time.

Give him an opponent bigger or taller and he'll realize that keeping your attacker in that one distance isn't so great and should be varied throughout. When i say "him" or "he"..really i mean all of us.

It's a matter of when you're ready to turn it up a notch, half a notch up and you'll realize your WCK goes to sh*t. progress comes gradually, many not having the patience to get there, and take it to the fighting notch too soon only to be let down and say WCK doesn't work. I mean, if you can't even chi-sao well fast under high stress, how the heck do you expect to even fight with it?

as for what Ip Man's son said..really? like your dad was able to use it..so that's pretty quick of him to say. Is it just me or do the son's not really represent WC so well?...perhaps just living off the name?

just thinking out loud!


I know where you're going with this, but IMO I think it has more to do with the individual's approach to WC rather than country vs. country.

If I had my say, I'd say that a lot of Chun IS flicky-flicky, patty-cake-based. But even one of Ip Man's sons has been interviewed lately saying that WC is for health only. So to each their own.

I personally like Alan Orr's Extreme Chi Sau clip on utube. I think it's a good representation of where Chi Sau should be going. Why not turn up the heat? And when that temperature gets comfortable, turn it up some more. This is where I go with my stuff.

Patty cake is for a very short time frame. Then comes the hitting. :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most likely what he was saying was that in these days and times Wing Chun is practiced mostly for health and fitness. The old man was known for his ability to kick arse. Actually I think most gung fu is practiced as a fitness program as most people do not ever get into fights. Sparring in a kwoon is not the same thing.

[LSWCTN1]

http://www.wcarchive.com/html/sifus/wing-chun-sifus-k.htm

have a look at Kernspecht on here. my guess is that the first line says it all. knowing as i do Kernspecht lineage before he was involved with LT might give a clue as to why his stuff is more combat orientated (it might also give a clue why he has the politics and fighting too..)

Kernspecht would have fought. full stop. LT? not necessarily against resisting opponents... :eek:

[grasshopper 2.0]

Ya that's another point I suppose. The guy was an ex wrestler, full contact fighter, massive frame and ends up doing wt from some chinese guy...

Wck must have something there even agaisnt resisting opponenets. Possibly demonstrates the "singer not the song" that counts

[LSWCTN1]

Ya that's another point I suppose. The guy was an ex wrestler, full contact fighter, massive frame and ends up doing wt from some chinese guy...

Wck must have something there even agaisnt resisting opponenets. Possibly demonstrates the "singer not the song" that counts

although i agree, what i meant was his wck instructor before LT - to say a similar vein of person would be unfair, but has a similar 'challenge' mentality

[grasshopper 2.0]

Sorry- u lost me! I don't understand what ur trying to say...

[LSWCTN1]

Sorry- u lost me! I don't understand what ur trying to say...

sorry :o

Kernspecht trained with Alan Lamb (who is a good instructor by all accounts) and also A.N. Other before going to Leung Ting. the other guy he trained with is (or was) very much into sending his students out to fight for little or no reason. not compete, but cause trouble in other schools/seminars etc.

Oddly enough, the biggest, most famous, WCK cult in the UK is run by one of this guys students - although he advertises that he is the true grand master of the whole of WCk - a title supposedly given by the leader of Bak Mei, who are the leaders of kung fu in china ;). Proper fruitloop! He doesnt mention being trained by Kernspechts instructor anywhere...

[grasshopper 2.0]

ahh i see. yea..as is the exciting world of politics. haha...although i'm from WT lineage, i could care less about all this crap. Unavoidable unfortunately...

[Alan Orr]

Ya i agree. Turn up the heat one notch each time. his chi-sao is like what WT lat sao tries to bring in, but a little bit more controlled - stress, different lines of attack, etc.

I like the idea of the clip of Alan Orr (had to take a look upon your response). Based on the clip, he is using his number one asset - his size. Also, he keeps the opponent at a punching/striking distance. I ask- where's the mobility of closing or opening that distance, etc. I think that's potentially a result of him relying on his size all the time.

Give him an opponent bigger or taller and he'll realize that keeping your attacker in that one distance isn't so great and should be varied throughout. When i say "him" or "he"..really i mean all of us.

It's a matter of when you're ready to turn it up a notch, half a notch up and you'll realize your WCK goes to sh*t. progress comes gradually, many not having the patience to get there, and take it to the fighting notch too soon only to be let down and say WCK doesn't work. I mean, if you can't even chi-sao well fast under high stress, how the heck do you expect to even fight with it?

as for what Ip Man's son said..really? like your dad was able to use it..so that's pretty quick of him to say. Is it just me or do the son's not really represent WC so well?...perhaps just living off the name?

just thinking out loud!

Very interesting. Thank you for your wisdom. Always good to have advice from someone who does not understand our body structure methods. I am keeping my opponent under my control, that is why the range stays the same. If you think you can move around an opponent when in close range then have fun. A good grappler with eat you alive. You have to be able to control the opponents body power and still be able to delink and hit. That was the skill that I was showing.


Alan Orr

[Alan Orr]

I know where you're going with this, but IMO I think it has more to do with the individual's approach to WC rather than country vs. country.

If I had my say, I'd say that a lot of Chun IS flicky-flicky, patty-cake-based. But even one of Ip Man's sons has been interviewed lately saying that WC is for health only. So to each their own.

I personally like Alan Orr's Extreme Chi Sau clip on utube. I think it's a good representation of where Chi Sau should be going. Why not turn up the heat? And when that temperature gets comfortable, turn it up some more. This is where I go with my stuff.

Patty cake is for a very short time frame. Then comes the hitting. :)

Thanks for your comment. I agree with you, a lot of the chi sao that you see people doing is not teaching the skill required under pressure.

Best

Alan

[-木叶-]

If I had my say, I'd say that a lot of Chun IS flicky-flicky, patty-cake-based. But even one of Ip Man's sons has been interviewed lately saying that WC is for health only. So to each their own.


I believe you are referring to GM Ip Chun's interview.

He was not actually saying WC is for health only.

This is my best translation on the clip:

GM Ip Chun: "My vision for the future is that, lesser and lesser conflicts will
be resolved by force, and more by negotiation. So how will Wing Chun be
relevant in the far distant future when no force is being used? So what if
you can one versus nine? Nobody will be doing it at that time, and will
Wing Chun be irrelevant and lost then.

In order for Wing Chun to be relevant and be preserved, as martial arts practitioners we must understand it is not only for fighting, but as a way of life, and for contributing to the society. By promoting Wing Chun other than self defence, but also as a way to improve our health (greatly ;) for me), the human
race will continue to use Wing Chun and Wing Chun will be preserved."

[grasshopper 2.0]

That makes a lot more sense - thanks for the translation/clarification. And ya, my post is not really about country vs country at all. More stemming from my own observations...but its not like I'm well travelled or anything

[Yoshiyahu]

Great qoute...

thanks for that...



I believe you are referring to GM Ip Chun's interview.

He was not actually saying WC is for health only.

This is my best translation on the clip:

GM Ip Chun: "My vision for the future is that, lesser and lesser conflicts will
be resolved by force, and more by negotiation. So how will Wing Chun be
relevant in the far distant future when no force is being used? So what if
you can one versus nine? Nobody will be doing it at that time, and will
Wing Chun be irrelevant and lost then.

In order for Wing Chun to be relevant and be preserved, as martial arts practitioners we must understand it is not only for fighting, but as a way of life, and for contributing to the society. By promoting Wing Chun other than self defence, but also as a way to improve our health (greatly ;) for me), the human
race will continue to use Wing Chun and Wing Chun will be preserved."

[grasshopper 2.0]

Very interesting. Thank you for your wisdom. Always good to have advice from someone who does not understand our body structure methods. I am keeping my opponent under my control, that is why the range stays the same. If you think you can move around an opponent when in close range then have fun. A good grappler with eat you alive. You have to be able to control the opponents body power and still be able to delink and hit. That was the skill that I was showing.


Alan Orr

I see your point now. Things like this are hard to tell just by watching a clip. But ya. i'm not offering any advice, only saying what comes to mind. anyway, i agree - i don't think one can move around that easily either. i'm just saying that based on the video, you're a big guy. How would i know whether you're using structure, skill or simply strength to get the outcome you want? also, what if the guy is bigger and taller than you? do you still maintain a certain distance? what if that's his ideal distance? etc. again, thinking out loud. no egos here, right? it's just a forum ;)

back to the original topic.. regarding different flavors of chi-sao based on origin, again you can contrast the chi sao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuzITQpFWGs&feature=related) with that of the emin clip above. (this is no measure of fight skill or whatnot, just discussing the appearance, flow, strength, control, etc within the different types of chi-sao itself based on its "ancestry" so to say...)

[bennyvt]

i was surprised when i went to hong kong the difference in attitude not all but most seemed to have an ' well im chinese so i dont have to train hard.' still some good guys there but most seemed to thinked they were better because they were chinese. I was always taught by barry its not the style that counts the most it the amount me training done.

[Vajramusti]

i was surprised when i went to hong kong the difference in attitude not all but most seemed to have an ' well im chinese so i dont have to train hard.' still some good guys there but most seemed to thinked they were better because they were chinese. I was always taught by barry its not the style that counts the most it the amount me training done.
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True dat- but there are WC folks I know- Chinese and non Chinese who train hard every day.
In Ip Man's days there were some who trained very hard and others who just came to some classes.

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True dat- but there are WC folks I know- Chinese and non Chinese who train hard every day.
In Ip Man's days there were some who trained very hard and others who just came to some classes.

joy chaudhuri

Yea alot of good Wing Chun can be found in Taiwan, Vietnam and other asian countries outside of China.