Wing Chun or CLF?

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq30157OqoA

[jdhowland]

Huh. Some kind of fat ga thing going on, there. I didn't know anyone else used the WC name. No reason why not, though. She was a popular character in stories and, like Mu Lan, could have had different wushu styles named after her.

[hskwarrior]

Fat Ga? ypu think so?

There is a set of moves found in CLF there and in my lineage as well.

[Ben Gash]

Most definitely CLF. Even if it wasn't obviously the CLF Ping Kuen (which it is), the fist seeds are all there.

[Violent Designs]

This is hard for me to watch. It is like a mockery of legitimate CLF form . . .

now wing chun teachers are stealing our forms too?

What are they trying to do, play CLF slow and weak? This is like the shapes and movements of CLF, without the essence or soul.

A pathetic display if you ask me.

[chasincharpchui]

agree with ben

looks like this guy has learnt ping kuen from like a video or picture book

[Hendrik]

As we all know from the Taiping development,

CLF is one of the biggest Influence in 1850. Some even refer Chen Hueng as Jhee Sin.




There is no supprise to see Ping Kuen in Weng Chun Eternal Spring.

[hskwarrior]

Most definitely CLF. Even if it wasn't obviously the CLF Ping Kuen (which it is), the fist seeds are all there.

Yeah i totally agree with that. its strange to see it labeled as weng chun


now wing chun teachers are stealing our forms too?

i got the feeling of "trying to pull on over" on someone.

[Hendrik]

Yeah i totally agree with that. its strange to see it labeled as weng chun



i got the feeling of "trying to pull on over" on someone.



Standing in the angle of studying martial art DNA and history.

Weng Chun is different type of art compare with Wing Chun, IMHO.

[hunt1]

Want to keep this response narrow to just 1 point.

This form is only in the Chu Chung Man family of Weng Chun and the history of it is that its not weng chun proper. CCM liked the form when he saw it . Learned it and passed it on.

[TenTigers]

a xerox of a xerox....

[Violent Designs]

Want to keep this response narrow to just 1 point.

This form is only in the Chu Chung Man family of Weng Chun and the history of it is that its not weng chun proper. CCM liked the form when he saw it . Learned it and passed it on.

Just suck it up and learn the legitimate thing then from a CLF teacher. Or take Lama Pai, Hop Ga, or whatever he fancies. Doesn't have to be CLF. But want a long arm style taught correctly, don't learn it without a teacher.

IMHO

[jdhowland]

Fat Ga? ypu think so?

There is a set of moves found in CLF there and in my lineage as well.

Yeah, I do mean Choy Lee Fat. I just sometimes use the term Fat/Fut/Faht Ga to denote any southern style of buddhist boxing method that isn't clearly designated CLF or is CLF derived, as this seems to be.

jd

[lkfmdc]

my vote, BAD choy lay fut :mad:

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't know what choy la fut looks like, but I know that I did see some WC moves there. However, they were not good WC at all. Well, not in my opinion. I think he has sort of mixed styles here. WC is a much more effecient form and does not have all that arm swing and round movements, and he kicks wrong. So no, that is not wing chun, or weng chun or whatever. I am guessing it is supposed to be the same thing.

[AdrianK]

As said before, Wing Chun is very different than Weng Chun. There is no "Weng Chun" derived from any of the major lineages of Wing Chun - YKS, Gulao, Yip Man, etc. Weng Chun is not one of the other names for Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun/etc.

Weng Chun claims common ancestry from the southern shaolin temple, but we all know(or should know) that there's never been any legitimate historical data to prove that.

Obviously it shares some things in common with CLF - That form has very little in common with Wing Chun.

[Ben Gash]

Obviously it shares some things in common with CLF - That form has very little in common with Wing Chun.

It doesn't share things with CLF, it IS CLF. It is the CLF Ping Kuen, done very badly.

[hskwarrior]

yeah, that's ping kuen....and its kinda shameless to take a form then not give it its credit then label it as another system.

[AdrianK]

yeah, that's ping kuen....and its kinda shameless to take a form then not give it its credit then label it as another system.

Sure okay, but what does it matter anyway? Its doubtful this guy stole it himself. It was more than likely stolen almost a hundred years ago, if not more.

[hskwarrior]

my only issue was that a CLF form or WC?

i think on one hand its great CLF is so great people have to take from it.

adrian, do you study weng chun?

are the chinese characters for Weng Chun and Wing Chun the same?

[AdrianK]

Whether its a Wing Chun or CLF form isn't really a valid question, because Weng Chun shares no forms in common with Wing Chun.

I don't study Weng Chun, its fairly rare to find anywhere in the US.

I haven't seen the chinese characters for Weng Chun, but AFAIK the chinese characters are different as well.

[Phil Redmond]

Look here and you'll see the first character for "Weng" has less strokes than the character for "wing" http://www.wengchun-kungfu.com/

The first character in the link below represents "Wing".
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=wing%20chun
You can see that there are more strokes in this character.

[Ben Gash]

They describe it as meaning "eternal spring", they're in the complete book of Wing Chun, and the Ving Tsun museum has lots on them, so I think it's safe to assume they're Wing Chun.

[extrajoseph]

Phil and Adrian are correct.

Weng Chun is written like this 永春 and it means forever spring, whereas Wing Chun is written like this 詠春, with an extra radical meaning to speak to the left of the "weng" character, and it means to sing the praise of spring.

So Weng Chun literally means "forever spring" while Wing Chun literally means to "sing the praise of spring".

Two different TCMA styles with two different characters and meaning for "yong" (pinyin), even though they both have the same sound. So we can see Chinese is rather tricky at best of times.

In my humble opinion, if it is a CLF form then it is done badly, there is no speed, no power and no internal jin.

[Charn Fu Gerk]

Definitely a CLF form, with shortened movements (Done terribly) no jin and his style appears to have a nasty case of swine flu.. :eek:

Makes me never want to train in a park again just in case some sneaky WC b#st#rd (Of any kind) is peeping from behind a tree with a camera to "add" a new form he "likes" to his "Repetoire" :mad:

[CFT]

Why is anyone worried? (I know you're not)

If it is performed incorrectly then they have not stolen the true essence.
If they don't attribute it to CLF then the reputation of CLF is not at stake.

[hskwarrior]

Makes me never want to train in a park again just in case some sneaky WC b#st#rd (Of any kind) is peeping from behind a tree with a camera to "add" a new form he "likes" to his "Repetoire"

thats funny. I do train at the park. and have had a wing chun disciple....but he was a tourist. he was watching our training and came over to us. He started talking about the long range techniques vs the shorter ones.

So i said to him "you guys are like this" and did some chain punches.....

then i threw a few techniques at him........and showed the type of energy we use.....and i swear to you the guy left shaking in his boots. he thanked me for the inside look at clf......but even my students can't stop chuckling at that one.

[hskwarrior]

Why is anyone worried? (I know you're not)

right i'm not. but, it would be like a CLF guy taking WC techniques and saying its short handed CLF.

[Eric Olson]

Poorly executed CLF, the energy is all wrong.

EO

[David Jamieson]

I guess they're trying to spice up their system with some extra stuff.

wing chun is a small system that only takes a short time to get into you. It makes sense that they would be left wanting more. lol

still, merging doesn't work so well and you have to move beyond forms.

I find schools that stick too much to forms and not enough extrapolation to application and free style usage are generally pretty stagnant overall.

I do like the use of forms in martial systems to ground someone, but I find that it goes on for too long in a lot of systems and progress is impeded by the whole pattern learning.

It's good at beginner and intermediate levels, but all advanced stuff should be formless but drawn from the material as is found in the styles forms.

having said that, for a basic handset from CLF (and I'm not a clf guy) I didn't find that set to be particularly well played.

there were parts were intention could've been greater in expression, but it was empty shape instead.

[Hendrik]

As I have mention before, in 1850, CLF influence other southern martial art evolution in Canton big time.

Weng Chun is a different type of art exist at that time and Wing Chun is the art of the red boat opera actors. The Characteristics of Wing Chun is Feminine or soft, it is also due this art is popular to the Red boat actors who is playing female role.


One Can see a snap short of the evolution via Cho Gar martial art of Canton.
Within Cho family, I have studied the art of Wing Chun which is passed down by Yik Kam the red boat opera actor.

and also study the Cho Gar evolution or hybir form/set called CLF which makes up of the CLF basic Pow, Cup, Shou, Kwa, Chap, Noi Liem and Ngoi Liem sau.


However, I was train in a seperate way where SLT/Wing Chun kuen and CLF evolution set were cleary presenting to myself.


As we all know, the power generation is different between WCK and CLF, even at the close range, CLF has its Kee Lum Sau type of power generation, and SLT is using the White Crane of Fujian + emei 12 Zhuang (snake slide) way of power generation.

[AdrianK]

They describe it as meaning "eternal spring", they're in the complete book of Wing Chun, and the Ving Tsun museum has lots on them, so I think it's safe to assume they're Wing Chun.

Because supposedly they share a common history.

But as for the Forms, the fighting, literally everything I've seen with Weng Chun, is very different. Its a different system.



Makes me never want to train in a park again just in case some sneaky WC b#st#rd (Of any kind) is peeping from behind a tree with a camera to "add" a new form he "likes" to his "Repetoire"

Honestly, I thought you had to be at least 13 to post on this forum? :confused:

Do you realize how ridiculous the scenario you just presented, sounds? This isn't some Kung Fu movie.

[Violent Designs]

Hi Hendrik what is Kee Lum Sau, the chinese characters?

Sorry I do not speak Cantonese.

Thank you

[Eric Olson]

I guess they're trying to spice up their system with some extra stuff.

wing chun is a small system that only takes a short time to get into you. It makes sense that they would be left wanting more. lol

still, merging doesn't work so well and you have to move beyond forms.



Also, CLF and Wing Chun are about as far apart as you can get in terms of body mechanics. If it was a Wing Chun guy doing another short-hand style he might be able to fake his way through....but not in this case.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik what is Kee Lum Sau, the chinese characters?

Sorry I do not speak Cantonese.

Thank you

麒麟手

http://www.56.com/w61/play_album-aid-7306594_vid-MjYzMDYyMjk.html

[hskwarrior]

is that the same form as this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Qa1CR_5zs

[Hendrik]

is that the same form as this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Qa1CR_5zs

Nope. It is something at almost 60% of the clip on my post.

[Vajramusti]

There should be no confusion: the u tube version is clearly labelled as weng chun. Not wing chun- which also has little in common with CLF. Despite Jamieson's often stated views- wing chun is not easy to learn and takes time and good instruction and practice to do it well. Wing chun forms are loaded with concepts and details..that are not self evident to many folks.
Back to the scheduled program---

joy chaudhuri

[Violent Designs]

麒麟手

http://www.56.com/w61/play_album-aid-7306594_vid-MjYzMDYyMjk.html

Thank you.

[Ben Gash]

Look here and you'll see the first character for "Weng" has less strokes than the character for "wing" http://www.wengchun-kungfu.com/

The first character in the link below represents "Wing".
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=wing%20chun
You can see that there are more strokes in this character.

However, various Wing Chun lines use the Weng character as well. Due to the similarities of the characters, and given the supposed evolution of WC, could the Wing Chun characters not just be an evolution of the Weng Chun ones?

[AdrianK]

However, various Wing Chun lines use the Weng character as well. Due to the similarities of the characters, and given the supposed evolution of WC, could the Wing Chun characters not just be an evolution of the Weng Chun ones?

Regardless, its obvious to see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfYiI1QHf_k

looks nothing like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMwVThfGH6E

Aside from the extremely common blocking methods present in countless styles, karate and kung fu. The chi sao is very different, their techniques are very different, even if they have a similar look, and its obvious from the Hoffman video that "Weng Chun" has several influences, one of which is obviously wing chun, but not so much that it comes out in any significant way.

Oh no! I just showed the Gary Lam video, I can't be giving our secrets away :D


Furthermore, "Weng Chun" Master Andreas Hoffman claims that it is the forefather of Hung Gar and Wing Chun.

Neither of which are historically verifiable, and significantly distance it from being a part of the already countless Wing Chun lineages.

And nonetheless, there is no "Fa Kuen" or "Plum Blossom Fist" nonsense in any other Wing Chun lineage other than this singular Weng Chun style.


Finally, the Fa Kuen in that video may not even be the original. I'm at a loss at finding ANY other Weng Chun Fa Kuen videos to demonstrate that form... and if you click here (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.AndreasHoffmansChiShimWengChunSys temComponents) it states:


In the Weng Chun family there are different versions of Fa Kuen: short versions, long versions and even different sets with the name Fa Kuen.

So this demonstration could have come from anywhere, the source material isn't even verifiable as legitimate.

[Ben Gash]

To me it looks like a mix of WC and Hung Gar. I must say, Hoffmann's expression is a lot bigger than some HK teachers, and he does that weird body rolling thing as well.
No WC creation history is verifiable, and indeed most contain mythical figures and events that may never have happened.

[AdrianK]

To me it looks like a mix of WC and Hung Gar. I must say, Hoffmann's expression is a lot bigger than some HK teachers, and he does that weird body rolling thing as well.
No WC creation history is verifiable, and indeed most contain mythical figures and events that may never have happened.

We can trace everything we know about Wing Chun back to the Red Boat Opera Troupe. Every lineage since that has claimed to have been derived from that, has an extreme number of commonalities.

Weng Chun on the other hand, looks like it has some wing chun influences, but many of those techniques shown are found in white crane, hung gar, etc.

No creation history is verifiable, but Weng Chun history in general is pretty iffy. Even their creation legend differs, whereas Wing Chun is claimed to be derived from Ng Mui to a girl named Yim Wing Chun - Weng Chun is claimed to have been derived from a Southern Shaolin temple called Weng Chun.

All in all, very, very different.

[hskwarrior]

whereas Wing Chun is claimed to be derived from Ng Mui to a girl named Yim Wing Chun - Weng Chun is claimed to have been derived from a Southern Shaolin temple called Weng Chun.



but doesn't wing chun also claim that they said it was created by a female so they government would think their gung fu was useless since it was created by a woman?

[AdrianK]

but doesn't wing chun also claim that they said it was created by a female so they government would think their gung fu was useless since it was created by a woman?

No, not at all. You're getting your legends mixed up :) Wing Chun was supposedly created by the Five Elders or whatever(like several southern style creation stories), then adapted by Ng Mui and taught to Yim Wing Chun... Nonetheless, its a BS story anyway, but I'm just showing you how the legend differs.

In Weng Chun history there doesn't seem to be any Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

However, various Wing Chun lines use the Weng character as well. Due to the similarities of the characters, and given the supposed evolution of WC, could the Wing Chun characters not just be an evolution of the Weng Chun ones?
Which other lines use the "Weng" character? Weng Chun's history is different from Wing Chun and from what I've been told by native speakers that the differences in the characters distinguish the lineages. Now if I got it wrong I'd appreciate your input.

[Ben Gash]

Apparently Pan Nam, Pao Fa Lien and Hung Suen use it. They also don't share the Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun creation myth, and describe the term Wing Chun as having revolutionary significance.
The characters are actually discussed on p.108 of Complete Wing Chun, and it suggests that either the characters were changed for reasons of secrecy, or that due to the oral transmission between semi-literate practitioners it just morphed back and forth.

[CFT]

The Chan Yiu Min (son of Chan Wah Sun) line use Weng Chun (everlasting spring) rather than Wing Chun (praise spring).

It's just not conclusive that use of either term can reliably determine lineage.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ChanYuMin

[Hendrik]

The Chan Yiu Min (son of Chan Wah Sun) line use Weng Chun (everlasting spring) rather than Wing Chun (praise spring).

It's just not conclusive that use of either term can reliably determine lineage.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.ChanYuMin

If one check into this Chan Yiu Min's Weng Chun naming, one could read information from the chinese web that bring up the reason behind Chan's naming.

Chan's Weng Chun is a hybird of Small Hung kuen is what the chinese analysis suggest.



Wing Chun is definately not Weng Chun, a different style. that is forsure.

[lkfmdc]

the oral transmission between semi-literate practitioners

never doubt that a poorly educated, semi to NON literate population had effects upon stuff like this and even more importantly the HISTORIES being taught

[TenTigers]

Young Chun Fujien Pai Ho-Wing Chun Fukien Bak Hok has in their lineage that Fong Qinyang passed on her father's art of White Crane. They were from Wing Chun (young Chun) County. Their documentation is a bit more reliable than all the other stories, yet most Wing Chun schools seem to completely ignore this, and continue with their "Traditional History."
Fine. I am not a WCK hater. Frankly, I don't buy that Fong Wing Cun married Hung Hei Guen and taught her Crane techniques to him either.
Nor do I buy that Adator witnessed a fight between an albino ape and a white crane.
Wudan and Chang Seng-Feng are highly doubtful
Lu Tung Bin founding the Dragon Gate sect is dobtful
immaculate conception? doubtful
alien abduction?
well, that I would have to argue with. In fact, just the other day, I witnessed an alien abduction of sorts. These aliens grabbed this guy, and beat him up pretty bad. I'm not sure what it was all about, cuz I don't speak Spanish...

[Phil Redmond]

Apparently Pan Nam, Pao Fa Lien and Hung Suen use it. They also don't share the Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun creation myth, and describe the term Wing Chun as having revolutionary significance.
The characters are actually discussed on p.108 of Complete Wing Chun, and it suggests that either the characters were changed for reasons of secrecy, or that due to the oral transmission between semi-literate practitioners it just morphed back and forth.
Thanks, I never knew that. The learning process never ends for me. :)

[AdrianK]

These aliens grabbed this guy, and beat him up pretty bad. I'm not sure what it was all about, cuz I don't speak Spanish...

To be fair, you're in new york dude, they were probably citizens :D

Unless you're talking about aliens from canada?! :eek:

[TenTigers]

yeah, they say that if they dropped a nuclear bomb on NYC, thousands of Americans would be killed.

[Vajramusti]

Apparently Pan Nam, Pao Fa Lien and Hung Suen use it. They also don't share the Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun creation myth, and describe the term Wing Chun as having revolutionary significance.
The characters are actually discussed on p.108 of Complete Wing Chun, and it suggests that either the characters were changed for reasons of secrecy, or that due to the oral transmission between semi-literate practitioners it just morphed back and forth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People can use what suits them but there are fundamental structural and other differences involved her for all of them to be lumped together.
Ip Man wasn't "semi-literate" and he used the wing chun and not weng chun characters in his calligraphy and has said that they were different styles.

Pan Nam mixed in hung gar, po fa lien has its own stepping and jong work, and hung suen is also different.You just have to see and compare their stances and motions.

CMAs love their stories- but wong wa bo, and leung ye tai were real boat people and leung jan was a real person and Ip man made the greatest contribution in wing chun devlopment. Those who studied extensively with him passed on the fundamentals well. Part time folks and auditors
put in things on their own to fill gaps..

Actually wing chun remains a fairly rare system despite the spreading, the marketing and the corruptions resulting from limited knowledge.

joy chaudhuri.

[LSWCTN1]

i think that Wing Chun and Hoffman's weng chun may well be different, but share commonalities. weng chun claims descent from Fung Sui Ching, while Yuen Kay Sans written material says that Fung Sui Ching taught the same wIng chun art as Fok Bo Chuen...

Chu Chong Man, the 'poster boy' for wEng chun, has a lineage interspersed with Leung Jan and Fung Sui Ching teachings. Andreas Hoffmans main teacher (Cheng Kwong) also studied under Lok Yui of YMWCK. and dragon style. Hoffman taught this too, before wEng chun. Maybe, to judge wEng chun, the lineage of Michael Tang (Chun Pak) and others should be looked at in more detail.

there are clips on youtube of Hoffman practising wEng chun under Wai Yan's guidance, whilst stood in YJKYM. which (correct me if i'm wrong) is only used in wIng chun.

Fung Sui Ching was taught by Dai Fa Min Kam, who's lineage Pan Nam also had associations with and was classed as the same art by him.

also, i believe it was Chu Chong Man who introduced the Fa Kuen into wEng Chun as he liked the form. nothing more, nothing less. I'm also pretty sure that the wEng chun character only started to be used in the Dai Duk Lan period, and was a deliberate change.

i must point out that this is all from memory, so it is more than possible to be wrong - i am open to correction!

[fivestar]

I´m a wing tsun teacher and I started learning weng chun for further research. In my own experience they are same style. I find it very interesting that we can find the same moves in Siu Nim Tau as in weng chun´s Saam Pai Fat or Sap Yat Kuen.

I visit a seminar with Michael Tang. It was a seminar in Germany organized by Andreas Hoffmann. I liked his Weng Chun forms but his chisao and applications were not professional. He told us that he use the knowledge of his Tai Chi Chuan to improve his weng chun forms. At the seminar I asked Michael Tang if he think that Wing Tsun and Weng Chun were the same style. He told me yes he think so, but today they are different.

Ignatius Siu´s Fa kuen is interesting and hopefully Ignatius Siu will post more videos about his weng chun. I´m wondering which kind of weng chun principles you have to follow with the Fa Kuen. Maybe a student of Ignatius Siu can explain more.

The fighting skill and body work of Andreas Hoffmann is incredible. I think his main teacher was Wai Yan and he demonstrated the weng chun sap yatkuen of Pak Chung in YJKYM, as I know Wai Yan´s weng chun has no YJKYM.