Shaolin Rou Quan - Supple (soft) Boxing

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan is my favorite style of Martial Arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4TnQf9LFXs
Shows the great Shaolin master Zhu Tian Xi explained applications.
These movements are found in various Rou Quan sets that I have learned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyhHetPrhmY
The rare to see Shaolin Rou Quan 36 posture Yi Lu set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SabJwXlBwEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s
The Er Lu (second road) to the previous set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuVdVOhB1cc (part1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuVdVO (part2)
The Shaolin Luohan 13 Gong Quan set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fJy0V-ZiEs
Shaolin Chan Yuan Gong (Zen sect Circular excercises or skills), a Rou Quan neigong set that establishes a strong foundation for internal martial arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKS670txV4
Shaolin Chan Yuan Quan applications and movement explanations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqzmMbpEO8U
Shaolin Liuhe Gong (6 harmony exercises or skills), a Rou Quan neigong set, which is learned first as a foundation.

Various Rou Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIoXRPGAB2w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83MGzkmu1kk

If you know of more, please add to this list, thanks!

[ittokaos]

Wonderful vids! Thank you for posting them.

The first vid of Shifu Zhu Tian Xi reminded me of the first time I attacked(at his req) Sifu Manuel Rodriguez. Another that understands kung fu and knows how to use it. Also, he is another that doesn't really seem like he can move with speed, fluidity, and power all at once but when he does you are very suprized.:eek:

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wonderful vids! Thank you for posting them.

The first vid of Shifu Zhu Tian Xi reminded me of the first time I attacked(at his req) Sifu Manuel Rodriguez. Another that understands kung fu and knows how to use it. Also, he is another that doesn't really seem like he can move with speed, fluidity, and power all at once but when he does you are very suprized.:eek:

Yes, when one uses the correct core body mechanics, all the work happens fluidly on its own, not brute strength which requires will power.

[GeneChing]

Zhu is one of the great Shaolin folk masters. He visited our office back in 2000. I wrote a rather lackluster article on it in our 2000 July issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=119): When Mountains Meet-San Francisco Hosts Shaolin Kungfu 2000. He's featured in our DVD - Shaolin Kung Fu 2000 (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-ca103.html) - which captures his demo team (along with a huge demo of local masters) along with a special bonus footage of GM Zhu doing Shaolin Chan Yuan Quan (Shaolin Zen Circle Fist) and applications. That section is the real gem in this DVD - traditional Shaolin at its finest.

Ok, end of sales pitch. Carry on. ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Zhu is one of the great Shaolin folk masters. He visited our office back in 2000. I wrote a rather lackluster article on it in our 2000 July issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=119): When Mountains Meet-San Francisco Hosts Shaolin Kungfu 2000. He's featured in our DVD - Shaolin Kung Fu 2000 (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-ca103.html) - which captures his demo team (along with a huge demo of local masters) along with a special bonus footage of GM Zhu doing Shaolin Chan Yuan Quan (Shaolin Zen Circle Fist) and applications. That section is the real gem in this DVD - traditional Shaolin at its finest.

Ok, end of sales pitch. Carry on. ;)

You can find his life story on line, I think some site has a PDF file about him.

That demo is great pm the Shaolin KF 2000 DVD.
That's the only time that he taped himself doing that form.
And the applications section is amazing. If you blink at the wrong time all you see is the assistant on the floor. How he goes from 0 to 120 MPH that fast, I don't know. He's one of the best traditional martial artists around.

[GeneChing]

GM Zhu has that economy of motion that comes from well-practiced techniques. It was fascinating to meet him. When he said he was going to show Shaolin Chan Yuan Quan and allow us to film it, I didn't really know who he was yet. Nor was I that familiar with Chanyuanquan. But I got to watch the filming and the apps were just devastating. You don't really get a sense of how quick and efficient he is from the footage. That's really hard to capture on film.

GM Zhu is an example of the power of many of the folk masters around Shaolin. As I've said so many times before, everyone fixates on the monks, but few look at the folk masters. The folk masters kept traditional Shaolin alive. If you look at Shaolin Kung Fu 2000 (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-ca103.html), you'll see GM Zhu's demo team, which is pretty much wushu. The team isn't even monks. They're just some star kids from his school. Zhu isn't a monk. He's a laymen disciple like me. When people say that the traditional is all gone from Shaolin, they just don't know.

This is something I was trying to get at with my 2008 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=789) cover story Shaolin Masters Keeping the Faith (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=793). Ironically, I couldn't put Chen Tongshan on the cover of a Shaolin special. A major part of the sell power of our Shaolin specials is that monk on the cover. Chen Tongshan, like Zhu Tianxi, is not a monk. It would be wrong to robe them up (I doubt they'd do it anyway, even to be on the cover). Many of the top traditional Shaolin masters from Shaolin are not monks. But that's too complicated for the newsstand covers.

But back OT to rouquan, I agree with Sal. It's great stuff. I look forward to studying it someday.

[LFJ]

It would be wrong to robe them up (I doubt they'd do it anyway, even to be on the cover).

he's robed up in the instructional videos he made. sal linked to them in the first post. :)

anyway, i was gonna ask if you all have found any footage of chanyuanquan and liuhequan (the boxing sets that match the gongs), or other information on them.

i havent seen that demo video yet. did gm zhu mark the set for public display? his instructional videos were, but not that bad.

[Sal Canzonieri]

he's robed up in the instructional videos he made. sal linked to them in the first post. :)

anyway, i was gonna ask if you all have found any footage of chanyuanquan and liuhequan (the boxing sets that match the gongs), or other information on them.

I haven't seen that demo video yet. did gm zhu mark the set for public display? his instructional videos were, but not that bad.

Well, he used to be a monk, along with a group of others of his lineage, and then they all quit in protest about 10 years ago concerning who was going to be the new abbott and the then support for modern wushu Shaolin crap.
But now the abbot there has become a big supporter of traditional Shaolin and is working hard to find the correct ways to do the sets and document them. He has been releasing a series of booklets with complete very detailed explanations for each movement, in english and chinese. I have the Rou Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu books and they are fantastic. They have been interviewing the local folk masters and comparing the sets and correcting the sets for any missing moves and so on.
These booklets are very hard to find, I have just a few of the 10 that are out so far.

Zhu Tian Xi's videos are okay, but if you know about these forms videos, they tell you things without telling you, what I mean is that they explain things so that if you already know the foundational material, what they really mean is very clear and verifies what you learned, but if you are a beginner and think that you can just use the videos to learn from you will learn things wrong with things but in that they know beginners will do wrong.
Mark the Chan Yuan set, yes, they are marked, each version of the set on the different videos is missing some moves. But if you have all the versions, you will have the complete set. I had learned all of it and found this out by observing each version was missing something the set I knew had.

I have put some videos of Chan Yuan Quan on my Youtube page. When I have the chance I will post more.
There is no Liuhe Quan set that matches the Liuhe Gong set. Shaolin Liuhe Quan is a different style from a different origin, although it uses Shaolin Rou Quan as one of its foundational materials.
Liuhe Gong is a moving nei gong set, it already is a routine, it doesn't need a matching Quan set.
I have taught seminars on the Liuhe Gong set and shown the self defense applications of each move, besides the nei gong movements, and also I have shown how you can do the set with a staff in hand. And I have shown how you can do partner movements, one person using movements #1 against a second person doing movements #2. The Liuhe Gong has very much to teach and is very important as the main foundation to base all subsequent Shaolin Quan training on.
The main thing it teaches, outside of the nei gong health benefits - cleansing the organs and channels, is to "Swing, Sink, and Point" during the execution of the movements, which is totally internal and the far beginning of understanding how to do Taiji Quan.

If people first learned Liuhe Gong, Chan Yuan Gong and Quan, Luohan 13 Gong and Quan, and the other Rou Quan sets, then they would have a spectacular internal martial arts foundation and core body mechanics that would make it VERY EASY to understand and do Taji Quan, saving many many years.

[LFJ]

about the liuhe boxing set matching the neigong set, i just read you incorrectly elsewhere.

here's a couple more videos.

liuhegong:
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/18934281-1587646302.html

chanyuangong:
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/19706782-1587646302.html

how do these compare to the complete versions you know? what are they missing, if anything?

also, is there a video of the 108 rouquan set? is that the one gm zhu did an instructional on? how about rouxingchui?

[Sal Canzonieri]

about the liuhe boxing set matching the neigong set, i just read you incorrectly elsewhere.

here's a couple more videos.

liuhegong:
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/18934281-1587646302.html

chanyuangong:
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/19706782-1587646302.html

how do these compare to the complete versions you know? what are they missing, if anything?

also, is there a video of the 108 rouquan set? is that the one gm zhu did an instructional on? how about rouxingchui?

ha, what is this the ghetto version of the sets? These are the laziest versions of the sets that I have ever seen! There is no whole body movement, just arm swinging independent of the dantian movements.
Also, the swing, sink, point emphasis is totally missing.

The Liuhe Gong is almost the same as Zhu Tian Xi's version, except this has the 4th and 5th movements reversed. Strange cause that would mess up the meridian channels you would be clearing.

The Chanyuan Gong here has a few missing movements, he is doing these the same as the commercial video and includes the same marked mistake that they put in it in the same place.

I think that this is just someone copying the commercial videos?

I have two videos only of the 108 Rou Quan, one is of Zhu Tian Xi when he was very young and he skips a whole part. The other is his commercial video, which contains all the movements, but you have to watch his applications and teaching the class to see the complete form, because he does the demo and then adds the missing stuff when teaching the class.

Rou Xing Chui there is a commercial video out of the set. They claim that the set goes back to the early Tang dynasty and was done in a demonstration to the emperor. But, they say it was added to over time.
When I see the form, it very much appears like Tongbei, with a lot of the same postures and movements using the same names for them too. Which makes me suspicious that it is a recent form (at least from the 1600s). Unless this is one of the Shaolin root sets that Dong Cheng used when he developed Tong Bei, so that might be way they seem to have some overlap.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Just found this video of Zhu Tian Xi doing some Chan Yuan Gong, he's skipping some of them and adding one that is hardly ever shown to others (strange!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8tMO0Gb8gs

[LFJ]

I think that this is just someone copying the commercial videos?


no idea, i just found them. but some of the moves are completely different. like the third movement in liuhegong.


Just found this video of Zhu Tian Xi doing some Chan Yuan Gong, he's skipping some of them and adding one that is hardly ever shown to others (strange!):

nice find, your searching skills are great!

i'm interested, if you know the full versions of these shaolin neigong and rouquan sets, can you upload them sometime? they are extremely rare.

not sure why gm zhu and all the others talk about wanting to spread shaolin arts to more and more around the world (as he said in one of his videos), but then they always mark their stuff which just causes confusion. especially for those doing research on it. cant even see what its supposed to look like.

[Sal Canzonieri]

no idea, i just found them. but some of the moves are completely different. like the third movement in liuhegong.

nice find, your searching skills are great!

i'm interested, if you know the full versions of these shaolin neigong and rouquan sets, can you upload them sometime? they are extremely rare.

not sure why gm zhu and all the others talk about wanting to spread shaolin arts to more and more around the world (as he said in one of his videos), but then they always mark their stuff which just causes confusion. especially for those doing research on it. cant even see what its supposed to look like.

Well, that guy's Liuhe Gong, he just switches the 4th and 5th movements around, they are transposed, everything is there though, just poorly executed. You can hardly tell what the moves are for. He's doing the third movement right, just sloppy, and his angles are exaggerated. Same for his fourth movement, that's way extended and is missing the scoop the moon action, the most important part of the movements.

By the way, the real way to do it, in the right order, the first posture is for the lungs, the second for the spleen, the third for the liver, the fourth for the triple burner, the fifth for the heart, and the sixth for the kidneys.

Shaolin Six Harmony Life Bringing Exercises - Shaolin Liuhe Yang Sheng Gong - 六合养生功


第一式：单手推山宣肺气 – Dan Shou Tui Shan (Single Hand Pushes Mountain)
Xuan Lung Qi (Announce Lung Energy)

第二式：风摆杨柳健脾气 – Feng Bai Yang Liu (Wind Swings Tree Willow) - Jian Pi Qi (Strengthen Spleen Energy)


第三式：怀中抱月舒肝气 – Huai Zhong Bao Yue (Bosom Center Embraces Moon) – Shu Gan Qi (Relax Liver Energy)


第四式：降龙伏虎调三焦 - Jiang Long Fu Hu (Subdue Dragon Ambush Tiger) Tiao San Jiao (Harmonize Triple Burner)

第五式：罗汉托天养心气 – Luohan Tuo Tian (Luohan Support Sky) – Yang Xin Qi (Support Heart Energy)


第六式：青龙摆尾益肾气 – Qing Long Bai Wei(Green Dragon Swings Tail) – Yi Shen Qi (Benefit Kidney Energy)


Hmm, well I haven't taped me doing the full versions because I give seminars about the sets. I've done two seminars two years in a row in Spain that went very well, teaching the full sets, the nei gong, the quan, the applications, and more. I've done a bunch in NJ and NYC too over the years.

I know the full versions with correct movements of this whole traditional system:

Shaolin Liuhe gong
Chan Yuan Gong and matching Quan set
Luohan 13 Gong and matching Quan set
Rou Quan 108 postures
Rou Quan 32 postures Yi Lu and Er Lu sets
Ape Monkey Quan
Hong Quan both Xiao and Lao Jia versions
Hong Quan Er Lu
18 Louhan Hands sets 1 to 8
Lao Hong Quan sets 1 to 4
Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures
Shaolin Five Elements Quan (very rare)
Rou Xing Chui
18 Luohan Quan and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan
Liubu Jia from Big Vast Fist
Yue Jia Ba Fan Shou rows 1 to 24
Various Wei and Nei Gong sets

There are also other sets from other related systems I know or am working on.

I'll gladly go anywhere I am requested to teach seminars on these sets.
I teach the correct body mechanics, footwork, and WHY the movements do what they do, which no one I know of does so. Also applications, self defense, and how to convert the sets into weapon sets.

[LFJ]

He's doing the third movement right, just sloppy, and his angles are exaggerated.

the third movement, huaizhong baoyue, zhu tianxi pushes straight forward and then scoops back downward. while this kid pushes to the side across his chest in front of the opposite shoulder. its a completely different move.

how did you learn these shaolin neigong and rouquan sets? who was your teacher?

[Sal Canzonieri]

the third movement, huaizhong baoyue, zhu tianxi pushes straight forward and then scoops back downward. while this kid pushes to the side across his chest in front of the opposite shoulder. its a completely different move.

how did you learn these shaolin neigong and rouquan sets? who was your teacher?

yeah, I said that this weird guy in the video doesn't do the most important part, the scoop the moon movement. Zhu does do it straight forward and then scoops, his main student does it with an angle and then scoops, so do other people. I learned that you just point your arm towards your centerline line as you move it forward (it deflects on incoming attack) and then once you reach out you scoop in and down back.
So, there is a slight incline towards the center line.
Actually the first move has a slight incline too for the same reason.
If you are thinking of the self defense aspects acting as one with the neigong aspects, then you protect your centerline at all time. By making a vector in front of you, your arms automatically protect as they attack. In the videos, Zhu is doing it just for Qi gong reasons, not self defense, and who knows, maybe he doesn't want to show it perfectly, in case people are just copying it and not going to a real teacher.

I learned these and many other things from a private Kung Fu club that I belonged to and now lead. I worked at a place that had a very large population of Asian engineers working there, they had formed a KF club before I worked there and many practitioners traded forms with each other and practiced self defense and test how the forms worked and it was Shaolin based. Everyone had been practitioners in China before they came here to work. It was open to anyone that wanted to practice. So I joined about 20 year ago. Little by little, the engineers retired and left the company or were laid off, and five years ago I became the leader of the club and now teach the material we all practiced. Obviously one of them was a student of Zhu Tian Xi's material, maybe from a different lineage. Since, they were not "official" teachers in a school system, we were able to learn the close door stuff since we were not a threat. If you wanted to learn more, you did. Also, there were people there that taught a lot of Southern Shaolin as well.
Also, outside of there I took classes with students of Peter Kwok, also people from Liu Yun Chiao (Wutang School), Bruce Frantzis, Frank Allen, and also others that were part of the Taiwan / Shandong Northern Long Fist lineages and Shuai Jiao lineages. I've been having private and semi-private classes for over 15 years in NYC with someone that knows a real lot about traditional methods. Also, I traveled all over meeting people for my research and trade people information and forms.

The integration of everything I learned is like learning Ziran, Natural style, I learned important foundatinal basics, core mechanics, footwork, self defense, nei gong, etc, from Shaolin, Taji, Bagua, XingYi, and many more styles, as you would if you learned the Ziran style. Hence, I call what I learned, Natural Chinese Martial Arts.
Everyone like to disparage teachers, so I only talk about that stuff when I am in person with someone. I learned things from people that they did not teach their own students, because they said their students were not interested in history and why certain things are done so, and they were afraid the information would be lost. Hence, I have a huge archive of information.
Just one aspect of it, the interelationship between all the internal martial arts and the long fist arts, I was able to write a 260 page book (all text, so far, I still have to add all the graphics). So, unorthodox, but I learned a hell of a lot more than most people every do and I've been able to not only write all these history articles, but also protect myself when touring with my band around the world and everything I learned has really worked. I was also asked to judge forms tournaments during the 1980s for many years.

[LFJ]

awesome. what about the chanyuanquan set? where did you learn it? it seems in 2007 you had only heard about it, never thought it really existed: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47237

also, what do you know about this jingangquan set, there is so much taizu changquan and hongquan in it. the poster says its part of the cotton boxing sets, which i have only seen master deyang's school do;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSRzgdC5bfk

btw, what do you charge for your seminars?

[LFJ]

a version of the shaolin luohan 13 quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTfXbARdXS4

and by the students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgDp--rohkk

dont know why its called "yijinjing" on both videos. it also seems to be missing quite a few of the essential 13 movements that make up the set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

awesome. what about the chanyuanquan set? where did you learn it? it seems in 2007 you had only heard about it, never thought it really existed: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47237

also, what do you know about this jingangquan set, there is so much taizu changquan and hongquan in it. the poster says its part of the cotton boxing sets, which i have only seen master deyang's school do;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSRzgdC5bfk

btw, what do you charge for your seminars?

The truth is that there is no actual separate Chan Yuan Quan, what it is is a series of drills that you do as self defense movements based on the movements from the neigong drills. Zhu Tian Xi created that particular Chan Yuan Quan set he did. At that time I had yet to see his version of it. I had heard he had one, but had not seen it yet. Other people have their own version, I had mine. Mine includes tongbei and Chang Quan drills inside it. One of Zhu Tian Xi's students does it with Chuo Jiao kicks added to it.
That's how real routines are created, from through knowledge of the style, its footwork, strategy, concepts, core body mechanics, drills, etc. Once you have instilled the foundation into your body / mind system, you naturally created Quan (routines) from the drills.

That particular Jingang Quan set is not at all like the Shaolin Jingang style, also known as Vajra style.
What this is, is from the long fist system of styles found in Henan province that are centered around Wenxian County (which is where Chen village is located).
In this county there is a long history going way back to Tang Dynasty of Da Hong Quan (Big Vast Fist), and over time by Ming era, there developed (from influence of Shaolin Rou Quan and TZ Chang Quan, and other styles from Shanxi, Sichuan and Shandong) there developed some local internal martial art styles. Jingang Quan was one of them. All these styles have the same common core, their opening movements are about the same, to show were they came from (the movements in sets actually tell a story of where they came from, who passed the moves, etc. The opening sections are usually a series of salutes, sometimes more than one, telling who passed the set on to who. Shaolin always kept the original salutes and then added their own. So, certain Shaolin sets have like 3 or more salute material in the beginning of their sets, they were always a repository of routines, not always the originators (hardly ever actually) and they gave homage to where the sets came from by keeping the salutes.
For example, the opening moves of Lao Hong Quan Routine 1, say "the land was conquered from east to west (by Song Emperor), now protection is needed from the north, so one must ride the tiger (use martial arts, which is tough for a Buddhist to justify) to strike righteously and defend".
Cotton boxing, another name for Taiji, also another name for Duan Quan, closerange boxing, part of the Wen Family of martial arts (always mentioned in the military manuals, such as Qi Jiquang's book and others.

I charge $1,000 for a seminar, no matter how many people are there.
I give the historical background, teach the foundational movements, the core mechanics, then the nei gong, then the quan, then the applications, with hands on person to person trying out of the concepts, while explaining why things are done in such a way.

[Sal Canzonieri]

a version of the shaolin luohan 13 quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTfXbARdXS4

and by the students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgDp--rohkk

dont know why its called "yijinjing" on both videos. it also seems to be missing quite a few of the essential 13 movements that make up the set.

Uggh, crap fu.
Not only is it missing a lot of the movements (the are not 13 Gong being done at all), but it is showing no understanding of internal movements, nothing is coming from the dantian area, no whole body movement, incorrect stances, incorrect footwork. It's being done like fake Taiji. The ending is really incorrect most of all.

I know that there are some different lineages besides Zhu Tian Xi's that do this set. But this one seems just plain wrong. Why bother doing the set this way? And passing it off as Yijinging to cover up is weird and suspicious.

[LFJ]

cool, thanks. i know about the 10 sets of the old vajra style. wasnt sure about this neigong style though.

shaolin cotton boxing (mianquan) was discussed here before. no one really knew about it. its this one:
http://www.56.com/u16/v_NDI3MDIxODE.html

i'd like to see something about the series of salutes, so i'd get an idea of what you're talking about. its been discussed before, but doesnt sound familiar.

[Sal Canzonieri]

cool, thanks. i know about the 10 sets of the old vajra style. wasnt sure about this neigong style though.

shaolin cotton boxing (mianquan) was discussed here before. no one really knew about it. its this one:
http://www.56.com/u16/v_NDI3MDIxODE.html

i'd like to see something about the series of salutes, so i'd get an idea of what you're talking about. its been discussed before, but doesnt sound familiar.

I like this one:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1501361658783490794&hl=en

[Sal Canzonieri]

A Mian Quan set (cotton fist):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkYf353GKU

[wuseng33]

has anyone got any ideas on what was the first of these rou quan or internal sets, i am lead to believe the luohan shi san gong was first but not entirely sure ? i am also curious as to why the luohan shi san gong set starts facing the opposite way? was there another set originally done prior to this?

[Sal Canzonieri]

has anyone got any ideas on what was the first of these rou quan or internal sets, i am lead to believe the luohan shi san gong was first but not entirely sure ? i am also curious as to why the luohan shi san gong set starts facing the opposite way? was there another set originally done prior to this?


hmm, it appears that the Liu He Gong and the Chan Yuan Gong were more simple and prototypical in movement to the Luohan 13 Gong set.

What do you mean the Luohan 13 Gong starts facing the opposite way?
I dont think it starts with your back to the audience.

What it does, like all Shaolin sets that are very much like Taiji Quan, is that it moves to the right first, whereas most Shaolin sets move to the left first.

These Shaolin sets: TZ Chang Quan 32, Rou Quan 36 Yi lu and er lu, Xiao and Da Hong Quan, Jingang Quan, Luohan 13 Gong ALL immediately go to the right and they all star with the same opening movements, as does the Chen Taijian Yi Lu set.

Most other sets in Shaolin, such as the Luohan sets, and so on, start moving to the left side first.

[wuseng33]

As you said the Lohan 13 gong moves to the right (or starts facing the opposite way compared to other typical shaolin forms) why is this for these early forms? when they all go to the left now? or as my initial thought was maybe the set had something else that led into the lohan 13 gong? just find it interesting why these are differnt and for what reason?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, one thing is that you can date the sets by seeing what direction it moves in first.

The ancient Big Vast Fist style that I have been talking about in the other thread is the main original root to many of the oldest Shaolin sets and it too moves to the right first.

Just about every post-luohan quan set that Shaolin has starts to the left.

Just about every set that is related to Chang Quan or Hong Quan in any way (Pao Quan, Tongbi Quan, Rou Quan, etc) starts to the right. Ancient sets were based on drills, and drills were done right side first and then left side (because most people were righty)

It's the Luohan sets at Shaolin that started the moving to the left first, with left hand guarding and attacking first.

Some think that is because this was done in honor of Huike, who chopped off his right arm to show his sincerity to Bodhidharma so that he would be accepted as his pupil.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's a set that is tought at the Liu borthers school in Tagou Dengfeng.
The Shaolin Rou Xing Chui - Shaolin Supple Shaped Hammers

Supposedly this set was the one that was demonstrated to the Tang Emperor by a Shaolin Monk when they were celebrating the 13 Monks that helped the new Emperor get into power.

少林柔形捶

歌诀

柔形捶法招术精，防身健体并一功；
意导引动动带息，出入进退一气成。
起落如猫行如蛇，势含松紧柔缓行；
心是主帅眼为旗，足赛战车手先锋。
拧裹钻翻回手钩，招之即打势难封；
刚来柔化借他力，顺势发捶去无空。
打前顾后闪转疾，滚出滚入巧力生；
双手互换阴阳诀，迎上取下招势灵。
捶法百炼身心合，交手之中显神通；
日久功深根叶茂，陶冶情操福寿增。

少林柔形捶谱（28 式）Shaolin Soft Shape Hammers (28 Postures)

1 虎抱頭 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head
2 白猿獻果 - Bai Yuan Xian Guo - White Ape Offers Fruit
3 搬拦捶 - Ban Lan Chui - Shift (Swing) Block (Deflect) Hammer
4 餓虎扑食 - E` Hu Pu Shi - Hungry Tiger Pounces on Prey
5 回手捶 - Hui Shou Chui - Returning Hand Hammer
6 青龙獻爪 - Qing Long Zhua - Green Dragn Offers Claws
7 斜形捶 - Xie Xing Chui - Slanting Shaped Hammer
8 金雞上架 - Jin Ji Shang Jie - Golden Rooster Ascends Shelf
9 劈砸捶 - Pi Za Chui - Spliting & Smashing Hammer
10 白鶴亮翅 - Bai He Liang Qi - White Crane Spreads (Flashes) Wings
11 连环捶 - Lian Huan Chui (Linking Hammers)
12 黑熊亮掌 - Hei Xiong Liang Zhang - Black Bear Shows Palms
13 夯地捶 - Hang Di Chui - Pile-drive Ground Hammer
14 狸猫上樹 - Li Mao Shang Shu - Leopard Cat Ascends Tree
15 掏心捶 - Tao Xin Chui - Fishout Heart Hammer
16 梅鹿臥枕 - Mei Lu Wo Zhen - Plumflower Deer Lies on Pillow
17 追风捶 - Zhui Feng Chui - Chase Wind Hammer
18 鷂子翻身 - Yao-zi Fan Shen - Sparrowhawk Flips Body
19 护頭捶 - Pu Tou Chui - Protect Head Hammer
20 毒蛇吐信 - Du Shi Tu Xin - Poison Snake Spits out Letter
21 打桩捶 - Da Zhuang Chui - Strike Stump Hammer
22 雄鷹展望 - Xiong Ying Zhan Wang - Heroic Eagle (Hawk) Unfolds Towards
23 冲天捶 - Chong Tian Chui - Rush Sky Hammer
24 野馬掀蹄 - Ye Ma Xian Ti - Wild Horse Lifts Hoof
25 橫掃捶 - Heng Chui - Horizontal Sweeping Hammer
26 獅子舞花 - Shi-zi Wu Hua - Lion Dancing Flower
27 擊鼓捶 - Ji Gu Chui - Beat Drum Hammer
28 虎抱頭 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head (repeat in reverse)

Starting with posture 28 you can do the whole set in reverse side.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Can someone in China please buy a copy of this book for me, I will pay you back immediately via paypal.

Title: 少林内功：柔形捶·云龙剑·修身功
Author: 高德江 编著
ISBN: 9787207038975 / 7207038976

it's only available used, it is from 1998. I need it for my research, thanks!

[SergeTk]

Deleted due to mistake on my part , confused Rui Quan with Ru Yi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

one of Lohan Rui Quan forms by GM Chee Kim Thong........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gS6hkq8mYg

Ruo is pinyin for Supple or Soft (not Rui, there is no word "rui").

Thanks, interesting form. Are you saying this set is named "Luohan Ruo Quan"?

(Lohan is Lindsley Lohan's last name, in pinyin it is Luohan)

(Just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby)

thanks

[LFJ]

Ruo is pinyin for Supple or Soft (not Rui, there is no word "rui").

(Just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby)

actually its "rou" (柔). "ruo" might be 弱, meaning "weak".

and "rui" can be 瑞, meaning "auspicious".

so unless he means lindsay lohan creating a set called "lohan (family) auspicious boxing", then it should probably be "luohan rouquan". but you already know that. :)

(just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby) :p

[Sal Canzonieri]

actually its "rou" (柔). "ruo" might be 弱, meaning "weak".

and "rui" can be 瑞, meaning "auspicious".

so unless he means lindsay lohan creating a set called "lohan (family) auspicious boxing", then it should probably be "luohan rouquan". but you already know that. :)

(just friendly corrections, not trying to be snobby) :p

HAHAH! How stupid of me! It is Rou, sorry. I made a typo (that I do often too!)
That's what I get for trying to correct people, darn.

Rui, yeah, he most likely means Auspicious. Since Luohan would be auspicous.

Well, regardless, I've never seen that set he did.

[SergeTk]

Proper name of the style is Luohan Ru Yi Quan ............. the link shows one of the sets/forms .........

[B-Rad]

M Zhu is an example of the power of many of the folk masters around Shaolin. As I've said so many times before, everyone fixates on the monks, but few look at the folk masters. The folk masters kept traditional Shaolin alive. If you look at Shaolin Kung Fu 2000, you'll see GM Zhu's demo team, which is pretty much wushu. The team isn't even monks. They're just some star kids from his school. Zhu isn't a monk. He's a laymen disciple like me. When people say that the traditional is all gone from Shaolin, they just don't know.
****, this guy came through Ohio (in '99 I think) with his demo team and I didn't know who he was. The Wah Lum guys were claiming these were real monks from the Shaolin Temple, but all I saw was some modern wushu demos (nothing different than what I was learning). So I just thought it was just some more amateur modern wushu guys scamming Wah Lum :p I went to their seminar and all they taught was a series of single line drills from some non-shaolin systems (baji, pigua, and xingyi). Zhu demoed some pretty basic taiji quan, but that's it. Not that I probably would have known what to do about it as a teenager, but it's kind of weird to have had a real Shaolin expert within a few feet of me here in Ohio at the time and have had no idea, lol.

[Sal Canzonieri]

****, this guy came through Ohio (in '99 I think) with his demo team and I didn't know who he was. The Wah Lum guys were claiming these were real monks from the Shaolin Temple, but all I saw was some modern wushu demos (nothing different than what I was learning). So I just thought it was just some more amateur modern wushu guys scamming Wah Lum :p I went to their seminar and all they taught was a series of single line drills from some non-shaolin systems (baji, pigua, and xingyi). Zhu demoed some pretty basic taiji quan, but that's it. Not that I probably would have known what to do about it as a teenager, but it's kind of weird to have had a real Shaolin expert within a few feet of me here in Ohio at the time and have had no idea, lol.

Are you sure it was Zhu Tian Xi? I thought he wasn't in the US til 2000?
I just read his book and he said he was in the US in 2000.

Also, I doubt he was doing Taiji Quan. He must likely was doing some internal Shaolin like Chan Quan or Rou Quan. He's a Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan Quan master, as well as a Taizu Quan master. I don't think he ever needed to do Taiji Quan since he already doing the stuff it is based on.

[GeneChing]

Prior to S.F. Bay Area visit, they performed five shows at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic in Columbus, OH. That was developed by Chan Pui, Jeff Naayers, John Leong, Huang Chien Long and Lily Lau.

Shaolin Kungfu 2000 was comprised of six boys and one girl, all students of GM Zhu's school. That's pretty impressive when you consider that those kids put on a long non-stop show and most performance troupes, whether they be monks or wushu champs, carry a team 3 to 6 times that size. They were all modern wushu performers, not monks at all, but the boys did shave their heads and wear robes. Gm Zhu was very clear about them not being monks and so were we when we held the performance (however there was one slip up by our MC who called the smallest boy a "little monk" at one point). That distinction might have been distorted in OH because the Arnold has a political aspect (as in real politics, now Governor of California politics, not just your run-of-the-mill politics in any circle of humans). The team met Arnold apparently, along with Ronald McDonald and the Mayor of Columbus. They were also given customized leather jackets from Arnold's personal tailor, which just goes to show. If they thought they were Buddhist monks, a leather gift would have been horridly insensitive. But then again, this is the Governator we're talking about. :rolleyes:

[B-Rad]

Also, I doubt he was doing Taiji Quan. He must likely was doing some internal Shaolin like Chan Quan or Rou Quan. He's a Shaolin Rou Quan and Luohan Quan master, as well as a Taizu Quan master. I don't think he ever needed to do Taiji Quan since he already doing the stuff it is based on.
Sorry, it was 2000. I remember now because it was the year I tore my ACL :-P It wasn't part of the official performance or anything, basically at the seminar he did some taiji quan with the older folk. Looked like standard taiji quan (24 form, or one of the related forms, I'm pretty sure I recognized the sequence). I suppose it could've been Rou Quan and my memory is fuzzy, since I didn't even know Rou Quan existed. Or they could've been showing him some Wah Lum taiji and he joined in. The guy seemed was pretty friendly :-) I missed their actual demo performance.


Gm Zhu was very clear about them not being monks and so were we when we held the performance (however there was one slip up by our MC who called the smallest boy a "little monk" at one point). That distinction might have been distorted in OH because the Arnold has a political aspect (as in real politics, now Governor of California politics, not just your run-of-the-mill politics in any circle of humans). The team met Arnold apparently, along with Ronald McDonald and the Mayor of Columbus.
GM Zhu may have been clear about it, but the Wah Lum people DEFINITELY weren't. Was flat out told by Jeff Naayers and everyone else in Wah Lum that they were actual monks from the Shaolin Temple ;)

[GeneChing]

Most of them were actually too young. Two of the males were of age, maybe four, hard to say... I probably have their exact details somewhere. Technically speaking, you can't become a 'shaolin monk' until your over 18. Before that, you are considered a shami which is a class of child initiates.

Zhu Tianxi is not a monk. He's a layman disciple (like me ;)). Zhu is a disciple of Shi Degen, and bears the Shaolin name Xingzhen.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan 108 postures set by Zhu Tian Xi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8ifq9xM00

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan 36 Postures set, Yi Lu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lskXBOfCIMA

Er Lu is posted there to somewhere.

[LFJ]

rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0

[Sal Canzonieri]

rouquan by shi yanxu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rin1gJ4CaK0

That's the Yi Lu set, thanks!
Hmm, interesting take on this set. Seems to have some chen new frame tjq in it.
chicken or the egg here?

[LFJ]

hi sal,

was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.

the three sets from shi degen's lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? :rolleyes:)

then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo's disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as "chan master chou" (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju (湛举) edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.

now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi sal,

was wondering if you know the history and origin of the separate rouquan sets.

the three sets from shi degen's lineage, starting first with the luohan 13 shi qigong set, is said to have been created by second chan patriarch huike. (with one arm? :rolleyes:)

then there is a single set listed in the shaolin encyc. which says it was created even earlier than the above. it says batuo's disciple, monk chou (seng chou) also known as "chan master chou" (chou chanshi), was skilled in qigong and fighting, and everyday had people come to ask for lessons from him. in order to help the old monks exercise too, he developed this rouquan set of originally 18 postures by combining his combat experience with the basic skills of luohan shiba shou. in the qing dynasty monk zhanju (湛举) edited the set and expanded it to 41 postures.

now what about the yilu and erlu rouquan sets done often by shi yanzhuang? they are visually unrelated to the other rouquan sets. what is the story on them?

There was a whole Rou Quan system, usually only the old people did them, they were considered too advanced. There are a series of neigong sets that one learns fist in the system, they are the ones that Shi Degen and now Zhu Tienxi taught (6 harmony gong, Chang Yuan Gong, Luohan 13 Gong, maybe Longshen Gong, and some others).

There are 5 different clusters of Shaolin Rou Quan.

- The one you are talking about above as shown in the Shaolin Encyc. would be the oldest.
Supposedly the Luohan 13 Gong Quan set (it is 18 postures, 22 movements counting repeat postures) was the original Rou Quan 18 postures set of Cheng Chou, it comes from staff and farmer movements (and of course is both a qigong set and a self defense set). The 18 Luohan Hands material that was added to the original 18 postures during the Qing dynasty to make it to 41 can be seen when you look at the 41 movements.

- then there is the ones that Shi Yanzhuang does (and Liu Zhenhai !), Yi Lu and Er Lu (36 postures each - important Shaolin number). Well, there's a debate about these sets. If you look at the Shaolin encyc., there is a section before the section that shows the drawings of the routines. It is a section on "lost" routines. The Rou Quan Er Lu and San Lu mentioned there are the same as the sets that Shi Yanzhuang does, essentially. The order of the movements from the "lost" sets are out of order and jumbled up. Maybe because the names of the movements were preserved from memory? Please go there to that section and read what it says about those three sets (the Yi Lu it lists there is exactly the same as the drawings for the set you mentioned about from Batuo, so since it is not "lost" why is it listed?)
(Right before these sets are listed three Shaolin Chang Quan sets, Yi Lu is the Taizu chang quan set, er lu and san lu are really lost and people are searching for them in case they have been renamed in another Henan folk long fist style. Please read what it says there too in case there is any history stuff, let me know thanks!)
Anyways, these two sets are VERY close to Chen TJQ as well, if you combine the Xiao Hong Quan set, the Taizu Chang Quan 32 posture set, and these two Rou Quan sets, you have the complete movements to the Chen TJQ Lao Jia Yi Lu set, nothing is missing whatsoever. The Yang style emphasized the Xiao Hong quan movements because Yang Lu Chan's village was famous for its shaolin hong quan. Both him and his first students, the famous Wu brothers (founders of Wu taiji Quan which makes Yang TJQ with Zhaobao TJQ) all are experts at Hong Quan.

- Also, there are the three sets of Rou Quan that Shi Degen taught. Which are said to come from one armed Haike. I was reading that he was an ex-military man and he came to Shaolin because he has lost his right arm in battle. Many Ming era sets descended from Jue Yuan / Bai Yufeng, such as Luohan and other Shaolin sets start on the left when stepping and begin with left hand in Honor of him, by the way. (all the OLDER pre-Ming era material descended from Zhao Kuang Yin - Chang quan, hong quan, pao quan, tongbi quan, etc., instead start on the right and follow the same beginning pattern as the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set, by the way.) There is the Rou Quan Yi Lu (which is 18 Luohan 13 Gong quan), there is a 108 movement set (I posted all these on YouTube), and supposedly a San Lu set that no one has ever seen (if you get what I was getting at with that phoney baloney guy before! Nudge, wink, wink). So far Zhu Tienxi hasn't shown it, neither has any of his school brothers or students. I would guess that if it still exits it would be 36 or 72 postures, to make 18, 36 / 72, 108, the normal size of a series of Shaolin sets.

- There is some Rou Quan sets that come from the Da Bei Quan style, that are said to have originated from Shaolin Rou Quan material once.

- There are some other Shaolin Rou Quan sets from other lineages that are very different from these all. I think they come from other time periods and influences. I posted some of these on YouTube.

BUT, the 16th century Priest Dong Cheng Tongbi / Tongbei Quan styles claims that he created some Rou Quan sets after he learned Taoist Neijia Quan and he merged those ideas with Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets AND then taught this set to Shaolin sometime during his lifetime. I have the lyrics to the set, it is 49 postures, it is pretty much just like Chen Taiji Quan Yi Lu with some odd postures here and there that are not found in Chen TJQ.

I have seen a Shaolin Rou Quan set that is long and very much like taiji quan, but I haven't had the chance to compare the two sets yet.

Also, sets that were perhaps Shaolin Mein Quan sets might be called Rou Quan sets now in some lineages (since both mean Soft Boxing).
And some Rou Quan sets are new called Shaolin Taiji Quan or Buddhist Taiji Quan in some lineages as well.

Do you know where any Shaolin Mein Quan sets are posted online?

[LFJ]

to get that straight,

you're saying the luohan 13 gong quan (the first of "3" from shi degen) "created by" huike, is supposedly the original 18 posture set created by sengchou, but edited to 41 movements in the qing dynasty?

and so sengchou's set shown in the encyc. is the qing dynasty shi zhanju 41 posture edition, and listed as yilu to the sets done by shi yanzhuang in the lost routines section? (perhaps "lost" refers to the original 18 or precise 41, btw which section number is it?)

but the luohan 13 gong quan set is really different from yanzhuang's sets.

which would mean that the luohan 13 gong quan is the oldest, and created by abbot batuo's disciple sengchou in the northern wei dynasty, rather than second chan patriarch huike.

it would also mean that since the 41 posture set is yilu to the two done by yanzhuang, and it was created in the qing dynasty, then these other two sets are also qing dynasty era at most.

as for the 108 posture set then, hard telling when it was created, if not also by sengchou since it is more inline with the luohan 13 gong quan than those other sets.

the only shaolin mianquan i have seen is done by master deyang's school. they are performing it here:
http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

to get that straight,

you're saying the luohan 13 gong quan (the first of "3" from shi degen) "created by" huike, is supposedly the original 18 posture set created by sengchou, but edited to 41 movements in the qing dynasty?

and so sengchou's set shown in the encyc. is the qing dynasty shi zhanju 41 posture edition, and listed as yilu to the sets done by shi yanzhuang in the lost routines section? (perhaps "lost" refers to the original 18 or precise 41, btw which section number is it?)

but the luohan 13 gong quan set is really different from yanzhuang's sets.

which would mean that the luohan 13 gong quan is the oldest, and created by abbot batuo's disciple sengchou in the northern wei dynasty, rather than second chan patriarch huike.

it would also mean that since the 41 posture set is yilu to the two done by yanzhuang, and it was created in the qing dynasty, then these other two sets are also qing dynasty era at most.

as for the 108 posture set then, hard telling when it was created, if not also by sengchou since it is more inline with the luohan 13 gong quan than those other sets.

the only shaolin mianquan i have seen is done by master deyang's school. they are performing it here:
http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html

Well, no, of course since its Shaolin, its not that straightforward.

The 18 postures within the Luohan 13 Gong Quan set are thought to compose the original set. Not that particular set itself as it is done today, but it's particular 18 postures.

This goes back to Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, as they found this old Luohan material and then were taking the Five Elements material and the 8 Directions material (which came from Shaolin Hua - Transforming character - Quan) and created their new "Attacking and Defending, Advancing and Retreating Boxing", which was later called Wu Quan (Five Boxing, not Five animals, that came much later) and then later called Luohan Quan. They started with some simple Luohan Quan and 18 Luohan Hands sets that were still to be found; they went through the library at Shaolin to find things, as near the end of the Yuan Dynasty, Shaolin was pretty much destroyed (yes, yet again) by northern invaders. When Jue Yuan got to Shaolin not much was left, hence, he went searching for experts to bring in some rejuvenation to Shaolin Quan. He met Li Sou and then Li's master, Bai Yufeng, who became the head librarian at Shaolin. Bai searched through the old books and rediscovered the Five Elements and Eight Directions methods and they continued from there.

Some people think that whatever was left of Shaolin Quan was preserved by Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng and that all we have of Shaolin Quan today is descended.
During the Qing dynasty, these 18 postures are thought to be what was used as the base for Shi Zhanju to create his 41 postures version. See, Sheng Chou might have created the 18 postures set, but it was extinct by the Ming era of Jue Yuan.

(Lost stuff is in the chapter right before the chapter that has the drawings of the sets, the chapter has names of set and their movements, but no drawings, and some historical info. Check it out and see if there is anything interesting there or some clues.)

Likewise, the Yi and Er Lu sets that Shi Yanzhuang does are composed of postures from those listed as Er and San lu in the lost forms chapter. Not the exact same sequences, they seem inside out when I tried to follow them.
These two sets are very Chen Taiji like (and hence, Tongbei Quan like).
Were they created in the Qing or earlier? Chen TJQ didn't exist before the 1650s, likewise Tongbei Quan didn't exist before the late 1500s. Chen TJQ was developed after the massacre of Shaolin monks by the rebels.

I know that the Shaolin Encyc.'s Rou quan Yi Lu set is very different than all other Rou Quan sets. I think it was radically changed and made much more typical Shaolin Quan like during the Qing era when it became the 41 posture version. There are some postures and movements seen in the Luohan 13 Gong, both sets start out with the same Old Man / Monk Splits Wood posture, for example.

I don't know why Huike is considered the founder of 3 sets of Rou quan that Shi Degen teaches. Nothing anywhere talks about this. There is a deep healing sitting meditation qi gong set that is attributed to him, it is for healing deep wounds in the body and so on. (Again, Liu Zhenhai has a vcd in his series showing this Huike healing qigong. Ha.)

All of this could have come from the same source 18 posture Rou Quan. So 41 postures Rou Quan was from Qing Dynasty, but Shi Degen's set from Huike could have formed much earlier, still using the original 18 postures Rou quan to start from.
Plus, who knows what happened during the early Ming and what Jue Yuan changed or not, what they preserved or not.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have a really good example of that set that was on google's video site, before they took over YouTube, it was called Buddhist Taiji. I think you can still find it.

This?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgOYk-FA4Pc

[LFJ]

thats a very neat one. i've not seen master deyang practice that but i have a very old picture of him in front of half a temple wall, standing on a meihua post doing the one leg stance at the beginning of that set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thats a very neat one. i've not seen master deyang practice that but i have a very old picture of him in front of half a temple wall, standing on a meihua post doing the one leg stance at the beginning of that set.

Is this the Mein Quan set in the video I posted or no?
It is labeled as Chan Men Taiji, which is a special Taji in the Shaolin Encyc, look it up and post what it says about it's history, it's important information about Taoist instruction coming into Shaolin.

[LFJ]

Is this the Mein Quan set in the video I posted or no?
It is labeled as Chan Men Taiji, which is a special Taji in the Shaolin Encyc, look it up and post what it says about it's history, it's important information about Taoist instruction coming into Shaolin.

i'm not familiar with the set you posted. the only shaolin mianquan i know of is what i posted at the end of my previous post.

i see a shaolin zonghe taijiquan (综合太极拳) set in the encyc.. it means "integrated taijiquan".

the history says at the end of the qing dynasty, monk rujing (如静) before becoming a monk studied taijiquan with with daoist menghuai (蒙懐道人) in linyi (临沂), shandong province.

after coming to shaolin he studied qigong, dianxue, jianshu, etc.. his disciples haichun (海春), haitang (海棠) and others requested him to teach. so he combined shaolin hongquan and 18 shou postures with those of taijiquan to create a 30 posture set called shaolin zonghe taijiquan (integrated taijiquan).

the set has been passed on from master to disciple to this day.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Check out this guy doing Shaolin quan sets.

The middle one I recognize as the Rou Quan 108 postures set, as Xhu Tian Xi teaches it. The set he does here is all complete, all the movements are shown.
He does them VERY external and looks he is just trying to get it filmed and not going into detail, so I don't fault him about it.

Do you recognize the first and third set he does?

He does some acrobatic stuff before the Rou Quan set.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Shaolin Mian Quan you posted: http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html

I wonder if it is this set that this "monk" calls "Rou Quan" but it is not any Rou Quan that I have ever seen before at all. It does though look like this Mian Quan set though. I bought his DVD of this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1obzWkKsyW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT1bXFqnP2s

[LFJ]

this guy also studied under zhu tianxi.

the first one is jingangquan, same as you posted here, only the first move is cut off in his video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5SSgSrRGkU

zhang shijie also has a video of it:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQyNTk4MDA=.html

the second one is 108 rouquan, as you pointed out.

the third one is luohanquan yilu, same as zhang shijie.

then there is luohanquan erlu, nanquan, bajiquan, changquan, luohanquan silu, dapaoquan (long).

[LFJ]

i always wondered what it would be. his introduction video doesnt really show any previews of the set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i always wondered what it would be. his introduction video doesnt really show any previews of the set.

The DVD I have doesn't look anything like teh Rou Quan that Shi Yongxin has been documenting (and also shown in Liu Zhenhai's VCD) nor does it look like any of Zhu Tian Xi's Rou Quan sets.

The closest thing I have seen it look like is that Mian Quan video.
I would post the demo of the set on YouTube but they would cry about copyright.
I'll try to review it at home and compare to this Mian Quan set.
Hopefully it is the same set, so we can lay to rest another mystery.

[RenDaHai]

Check out this guy doing Shaolin quan sets.

The middle one I recognize as the Rou Quan 108 postures set, as Xhu Tian Xi teaches it. The set he does here is all complete, all the movements are shown.
He does them VERY external and looks he is just trying to get it filmed and not going into detail, so I don't fault him about it.

Do you recognize the first and third set he does?

He does some acrobatic stuff before the Rou Quan set.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html

Saw this video a while ago. The unknown sets in here are some later sets of luohan quan. In the text he says 2 lo 4 so but it really depends on where he learned it. He says in the text he is zhu tian xis student but looking at the other forms i think it is more likely he is from Hui guang wu xiao, zhang shi jies school. Zhu tian xi teaches there sometimes, he must have learned that rou quan from zhu tian xi. Later on in the vid the younger kid performs another luohan set. Also there is an older man who does a short section of jinghua ba shi quan---a kaifeng shaolin form i know. THat is the only time i have seen a video of it.

Great video. One of the only examples of the other luohan quan sets. Adds weight to the theory that tianxi knows all 18. I will find him and find out. I know where the school is. (i met zhang shi jie at a competition once, he was judging).

Notice how the luohan set at about 7 mins in has a lot of pao quan in it. Including moves from the 3rd section.

ALso on the tianxi rou quan set, do we have any more info on this, it is unlike other rou quans i have seen. two people i have talked to said he made the set himself. but Degen did show him a lot of forms he showed no one else... any info?

[RenDaHai]

The Shaolin Mian Quan you posted: http://www.56.com/u85/v_NDM0OTgyOTg.html

I wonder if it is this set that this "monk" calls "Rou Quan" but it is not any Rou Quan that I have ever seen before at all. It does though look like this Mian Quan set though. I bought his DVD of this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1obzWkKsyW8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT1bXFqnP2s

Haha,

Can't watch the youtube videos but i can solve the 56.com 'mian quan' problem.

This is not mian quan. This is just some set made up for a performance, just like the 'gong fu quan' set after it. I have lived here for long enough, i've seen a thousand performances and watched them being choreographed. Its jsut bits of Chen Taiji (which everyone in dengfeng practices to some extent). put together for that particular performance. Of this I am absolutely certain. don't bother analysing it.

On the video i cant watch, if it looks a lot like taiji, it is probably taiji....

Rou quan is very non specific. THey do any soft moves and call it rou quan. I have seen people do xiao hong quan slowly and pass it off as rou quan. It is not well known so nobody argues.

When i get back home I'll try to post a set of shaolin mian quan, i have a video now.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Saw this video a while ago. The unknown sets in here are some later sets of luohan quan. In the text he says 2 lo 4 so but it really depends on where he learned it. He says in the text he is zhu tian xis student but looking at the other forms i think it is more likely he is from Hui guang wu xiao, zhang shi jies school. Zhu tian xi teaches there sometimes, he must have learned that rou quan from zhu tian xi. Later on in the vid the younger kid performs another luohan set. Also there is an older man who does a short section of jinghua ba shi quan---a kaifeng shaolin form i know. THat is the only time i have seen a video of it.

Great video. One of the only examples of the other luohan quan sets. Adds weight to the theory that tianxi knows all 18. I will find him and find out. I know where the school is. (i met zhang shi jie at a competition once, he was judging).

Notice how the luohan set at about 7 mins in has a lot of pao quan in it. Including moves from the 3rd section.

ALso on the tianxi rou quan set, do we have any more info on this, it is unlike other rou quans i have seen. two people i have talked to said he made the set himself. but Degen did show him a lot of forms he showed no one else... any info?


hmm, this stuff on this video is very much what I learned, even the Chang Quan and Nan Quan we had learned. And, I've been told that (Gene Ching) Zhu Tianxi's school did teach the modern wushu sets, since at the time that was what people wanted. Now they want traditional KF.

From what I know the Rou Quan set shown is original from Shi Degen, not made up by Zhu. If we watch all the sets in this video, you can clearly see that they are all made up of movements from Rou Quan. Most of the sets shown are just a mixture of Rou Quan and Pao Quan and Hong Quan. So, if they are Luohan sets, then you can see how they are all related.
I was always told to work hard to fully understand Rou Quan as it was the basis for all the later Shaolin sets. That it was bound with Luohan Quan during Bai Yufeng's time.

Here's a list of what is one this video, minus the parts when he is doing modern wushu or acrobatic stuff (I didn't count the nan quan and modern chang quan wushu sets). Let me know if you can figure out with no names.

Also, I recognize the background where he filmed, it is where Zhu Tianxi and others filmed the videos I have posted on my youtube channel, back in the 1980s

here's the routines:
1- Jingang Quan
2 - Rou Quan 108
3 - Luohan Yi Lu
4 - Luohan Er Lu
5 - Baji Quan (which set, xiao or da or? or modern wushu version)
6 - Luohan Quan Si Lu
7 - Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu (as Tagou calls the set)
7x- Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu, first part of the set
8 - unknown set (?)
9 - unknown set (?)
10 - kaifeng shaolin - Jing Hua Ba Shi Quan (can you post the chinese characters for this?)
11 - weapons practice stuff
12 - unknown sets - two different (?)
13 - some numchuk stuff and staff set (which one?)

[Sal Canzonieri]

I posted a video of the Shaolin Rou Xing Chui set - 少林柔形捶

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZcJsl8r1E

The demo is by Gao Dejiang.

It's a very short set, halfway it repeats itself on the other side.

I read that this set may be one of the oldest Shaolin sets still around, comes from combining Tang era Military martial arts with Shoulin Rou Quan.

Has anyone any more info on this set?

I learned it once, it's very easy if you know most Shaolin internal stuff.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Something strange, this video:

http://www.56.com/u65/v_NDI3MDM3MjY.html

is titled Da Bei Quan (Great Compassion Boxing), 128 movements.

It's the same set as the 128 (41 postures) move Shaolin Rou Quan set (nothing like any Shaolin Rou Quan I have ever seen anywhere) book that was published decades ago by Ding Shao Sz.

Here's the more common seen version (this version is done the same exact way as the illustrations in Ding Shao Sz's book, more so than the previous video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBULs8lPMx4
http://www.56.com/u41/v_NDI2NzQ0ODY.html (for those that can't access YouTube)

Supposedly:
This set was said to come through Zhang Xian San, probably the best Six Harmony Boxing master in Taiwan's history.
However Chang tended to teach Mantis to few people and taught Shaolin mostly instead.

The problem is that:

There is the Chan Men Taiji Quan that was practiced by Shaolin monks, which was derived from the "Da Bei Xin Tuo Luo Mi" Buddhist scripts.

AND

there is a different thing that is also named Da Bei Quan, which is a style taught in Beijing by Buddhist monk Qi Yun and spreading throughout the country. Having absorbed the body and hand techniques of Bagua Zhang (Eight Trigrams Palm) and Xingyi Quan (Form and Meaning Fist), this style requires that the practitioner should combine internal and external force into one, using will, not strength. Today is is taught by Qiao Xiu Chuan, third-generation disciple of Da Bei Quan, and committee member of the Beijing Wushu Association.

Though they are named the same thing, it seems that they are two different styles,
one practiced by people in Henan (as part of Shaolin, Li Yuan Chi demonstrated the art to the general public at Henan, China in 1985)
and the other by people in Beijing (lineage from founder Qi Yun).

Anyone have any further info?

[SergeTk]

This goes back to Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, as they found this old Luohan material and then were taking the Five Elements material and the 8 Directions material (which came from Shaolin Hua - Transforming character - Quan) and created their new "Attacking and Defending, Advancing and Retreating Boxing", which was later called Wu Quan (Five Boxing, not Five animals, that came much later) and then later called Luohan Quan. They started with some simple Luohan Quan and 18 Luohan Hands sets that were still to be found; they went through the library at Shaolin to find things, as near the end of the Yuan Dynasty, Shaolin was pretty much destroyed (yes, yet again) by northern invaders. When Jue Yuan got to Shaolin not much was left, hence, he went searching for experts to bring in some rejuvenation to Shaolin Quan. He met Li Sou and then Li's master, Bai Yufeng, who became the head librarian at Shaolin. Bai searched through the old books and rediscovered the Five Elements and Eight Directions methods and they continued from there.


Bai Yu Feng founded another style which could easily be Wu Quan ....... Wu Zu Quan (5 ancestors fist) above story is very similar to 5 ancestors creation story of GM Chee Kim Thong lineage.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Bai Yu Feng founded another style which could easily be Wu Quan ....... Wu Zu Quan (5 ancestors fist) above story is very similar to 5 ancestors creation story of GM Chee Kim Thong lineage.

This is where Five Ancestors story originally comes from:

Yi Quan was a direct student of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, he later traveled with Jue Yuan to south eastern China. There he was introduced to Ma Long, who further taught him internal martial arts.

During the very beginning of the Qing Dynasty, Yi Quan later became the Shaolin teacher of the founder of Choy Gar (who was an uncle to the last Ming emperor).
From this point the Wu Quan developed into the Wu Xing Quan (Five Animals) and much later the story of the Five Ancestors developed as a legend.

[SergeTk]

This is where Five Ancestors story originally comes from:

Yi Quan was a direct student of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan, he later traveled with Jue Yuan to south eastern China. There he was introduced to Ma Long, who further taught him internal martial arts.

During the very beginning of the Qing Dynasty, Yi Quan later became the Shaolin teacher of the founder of Choy Gar (who was an uncle to the last Ming emperor).
From this point the Wu Quan developed into the Wu Xing Quan (Five Animals) and much later the story of the Five Ancestors developed as a legend.

I don't belive the legend of Five ancestors got much to do with the style of Five Ancestors...........

I have another question is Luohan Rou Quan (soft boxing) same as Louhan Ru-Yi Quan which knows as "The old man set" or "As you Wish Fist" or "Printing The Red Palm'. More i read this topic more I come to a conclusion that they are no the same even though both are soft luohan styles..........

[Sal Canzonieri]

I don't belive the legend of Five ancestors got much to do with the style of Five Ancestors...........

I have another question is Luohan Rou Quan (soft boxing) same as Louhan Ru-Yi Quan which knows as "The old man set" or "As you Wish Fist" or "Printing The Red Palm'. More i read this topic more I come to a conclusion that they are no the same even though both are soft luohan styles..........

No, they are two different styles.

[HuiGuangWuYuan]

Sorry, it was 2000. I remember now because it was the year I tore my ACL :-P It wasn't part of the official performance or anything, basically at the seminar he did some taiji quan with the older folk. Looked like standard taiji quan (24 form, or one of the related forms, I'm pretty sure I recognized the sequence). I suppose it could've been Rou Quan and my memory is fuzzy, since I didn't even know Rou Quan existed. Or they could've been showing him some Wah Lum taiji and he joined in. The guy seemed was pretty friendly :-) I missed their actual demo performance.

GM Zhu may have been clear about it, but the Wah Lum people DEFINITELY weren't. Was flat out told by Jeff Naayers and everyone else in Wah Lum that they were actual monks from the Shaolin Temple ;)


Hello,

I was there and what Master Zhu was teaching was some basic chan yuan gong. As far as what my Shifu, Jef Naayers had said was that Master Zhu was a Monk who had left Shaolin Temple in protest. Also, The basic line drills that were being taught in the other seminar were basics out of the Jin Gang Quan a Traditional Set from Shaolin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8XY_QWH7mU

[Thomas316]

sal, is ur history book ready?

[tiaji1983]

Hey Sal, you seem to know a lot about the history of Shaolin. My teacher teaches TCMA, and told us Taijiquan and Wudang Taijiquan and Wudang Chung Fa were both adapted from Shaolin Taizuquan. Do you know or could you guide me to information (if it is correct) that Taizuquan is the style that Taijiquan and Wudangquan came from? Thank you if you can provide the information or point me in the correct direction. I dont doubt what my teacher tells me, I just like to research and back things up I say, as so many TCMA are so obsessed with lineage and history, which I really dont feel like it matters... But it does to some. :p

[Xian]

Here's a set that is tought at the Liu borthers school in Tagou Dengfeng.
The Shaolin Rou Xing Chui - Shaolin Supple Shaped Hammers

Supposedly this set was the one that was demonstrated to the Tang Emperor by a Shaolin Monk when they were celebrating the 13 Monks that helped the new Emperor get into power.

少林柔形捶

歌诀

柔形捶法招术精,防身健体并一功;
意导引动动带息,出入进退一气成。
起落如猫行如蛇,势含松紧柔缓行;
心是主帅眼为旗,足赛战车手先锋。
拧裹钻翻回手钩,招之即打势难封;
刚来柔化借他力,顺势发捶去无空。
打前顾后闪转疾,滚出滚入巧力生;
双手互换阴阳诀,迎上取下招势灵。
捶法百炼身心合,交手之中显神通;
日久功深根叶茂,陶冶情操福寿增。

少林柔形捶谱(28 式)Shaolin Soft Shape Hammers (28 Postures)

1 虎抱頭 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head
2 白猿獻果 - Bai Yuan Xian Guo - White Ape Offers Fruit
3 搬拦捶 - Ban Lan Chui - Shift (Swing) Block (Deflect) Hammer
4 餓虎扑食 - E` Hu Pu Shi - Hungry Tiger Pounces on Prey
5 回手捶 - Hui Shou Chui - Returning Hand Hammer
6 青龙獻爪 - Qing Long Zhua - Green Dragn Offers Claws
7 斜形捶 - Xie Xing Chui - Slanting Shaped Hammer
8 金雞上架 - Jin Ji Shang Jie - Golden Rooster Ascends Shelf
9 劈砸捶 - Pi Za Chui - Spliting & Smashing Hammer
10 白鶴亮翅 - Bai He Liang Qi - White Crane Spreads (Flashes) Wings
11 连环捶 - Lian Huan Chui (Linking Hammers)
12 黑熊亮掌 - Hei Xiong Liang Zhang - Black Bear Shows Palms
13 夯地捶 - Hang Di Chui - Pile-drive Ground Hammer
14 狸猫上樹 - Li Mao Shang Shu - Leopard Cat Ascends Tree
15 掏心捶 - Tao Xin Chui - Fishout Heart Hammer
16 梅鹿臥枕 - Mei Lu Wo Zhen - Plumflower Deer Lies on Pillow
17 追风捶 - Zhui Feng Chui - Chase Wind Hammer
18 鷂子翻身 - Yao-zi Fan Shen - Sparrowhawk Flips Body
19 护頭捶 - Pu Tou Chui - Protect Head Hammer
20 毒蛇吐信 - Du Shi Tu Xin - Poison Snake Spits out Letter
21 打桩捶 - Da Zhuang Chui - Strike Stump Hammer
22 雄鷹展望 - Xiong Ying Zhan Wang - Heroic Eagle (Hawk) Unfolds Towards
23 冲天捶 - Chong Tian Chui - Rush Sky Hammer
24 野馬掀蹄 - Ye Ma Xian Ti - Wild Horse Lifts Hoof
25 橫掃捶 - Heng Chui - Horizontal Sweeping Hammer
26 獅子舞花 - Shi-zi Wu Hua - Lion Dancing Flower
27 擊鼓捶 - Ji Gu Chui - Beat Drum Hammer
28 虎抱頭 - Hu Bao Tou - Tiger Wraps Head (repeat in reverse)

Starting with posture 28 you can do the whole set in reverse side.

Here is another version of the set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baz1PcMPC-4&feature=plcp


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

- Also, there are the three sets of Rou Quan that Shi Degen taught. Which are said to come from one armed Haike.
...There is the Rou Quan Yi Lu (which is 18 Luohan 13 Gong quan), there is a 108 movement set, and supposedly a San Lu set that no one has ever seen.

they say that "Rou Quan was made by Huike, and has 3 roads." as you said previously, the 18 postures of 13 Luohan Gong form were created by Sengchou, not Huike, and besides, it seems nobody is aware of any "3rd" road!
a natural assumption here is that of the "3 roads of Rou Quan," they may just be referring to the long 108-movement form that Huike has created, and that it consists of 3 roads/sections, like other big SongShan Shaolin forms, which are divided into 3 roads/sections. then this long 3-road 108-movement form, made by Huike, is coupled with the shorter 18-posture old Rou Quan, whose essentials were laid by Sengchou.
does this guess seem reasonable? or is there any way to confirm or deny it?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal, you seem to know a lot about the history of Shaolin. My teacher teaches TCMA, and told us Taijiquan and Wudang Taijiquan and Wudang Chung Fa were both adapted from Shaolin Taizuquan. Do you know or could you guide me to information (if it is correct) that Taizuquan is the style that Taijiquan and Wudangquan came from? Thank you if you can provide the information or point me in the correct direction. I dont doubt what my teacher tells me, I just like to research and back things up I say, as so many TCMA are so obsessed with lineage and history, which I really dont feel like it matters... But it does to some. :p

Wow, I never saw this post, sorry. I was in the hospital at the time it was posted. I have done extensive research into this, and agree completely with your teacher. Here is something that will help your understanding of that:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle35-TZQ.htm

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle36-ShaolinSoftBoxing.htm

[ngokfei]

hey sal I see alot of your research is in the recent Kung Fu Tai Chi Shaolin Special.:D

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey sal I see alot of your research is in the recent Kung Fu Tai Chi Shaolin Special.:D

It is? I didn;'t get a chance to read it, I dont have it yet. When did it come out. I've been finishing up a bunch of books so haven't gone out much.

Like what?

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's a nice article with photos of the complete routine of the 41 posture, original Rou Quan:

http://www.chinesekungfu.com.cn/html/1301/6b813d8f-a5f5-48cc-a217-35f35739ff85.htm

Looks like there is some history given in the beginning.

[LFJ]

That's the one attributed to monk Chou (Seng Chou), of the Northern Wei Dynasty. I think the encyclopedia said it only had like 8 postures at first, if it's indeed the same set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That's the one attributed to monk Chou (Seng Chou), of the Northern Wei Dynasty. I think the encyclopedia said it only had like 8 postures at first, if it's indeed the same set.

yeah, it is. Looks more like Luohan. it was 18 postures of Luohan first, then the other moves were added to it to make 41. So, we can see what the Luohan Looked like back in Northern Wei times.

Do you have the name for the person who expanded it and when he did it from the Shaolin Encyclopedia?

The postures have ones that were later in taiji quan, like Single Whip, White Crane Spreads Wings, and some others.

[LFJ]

Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who's credited with quite a lot in the Qing.

[GeneChing]

hey sal I see alot of your research is in the recent Kung Fu Tai Chi Shaolin Special.:D
I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. That was out of respect for his research (I would have cited if there were any actual quotes), as well as my constant effort to keep things fresh. However, I can't help it if we reached some of the same conclusions. That's reaffirming, yes?

The Soft Fist By Gene Ching and Gigi Oh appears in our Shaolin Special 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1088), which hits the newsstands next week.

Rouquan is really only the hook in this article, mostly for those that don't really know Shaolin. The piece is more about current trends at the Shaolin Temple Cultural Center in America. Nevertheless, I'll be eager to hear your reactions - both positive and negative. Thanks, as always, for your support.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah, 18 postures. The encyclopedia says it was expanded to the current 41 postures by Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju who's credited with quite a lot in the Qing.

1727 Qing Emperor then forbade, punishable by death, any Han martial arts practice, especially at Shaolin, they knocked down all the gates and rebuilt the area to make it more accessible.
Since Shaolin monks still feared government prosecution, they secretly learnt and practiced it. During the the late 1700s/early 1800s, monks Haifa, Zhanmo, and Zhanju were among those who left Shaolin and practiced Wushu in a small monastery Shigau Monastery.

That explains Zhanyu being so involved with the design of Shaolin martial arts.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. That was out of respect for his research (I would have cited if there were any actual quotes), as well as my constant effort to keep things fresh. However, I can't help it if we reached some of the same conclusions. That's reaffirming, yes?

The Soft Fist By Gene Ching and Gigi Oh appears in our Shaolin Special 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1088), which hits the newsstands next week.

Rouquan is really only the hook in this article, mostly for those that don't really know Shaolin. The piece is more about current trends at the Shaolin Temple Cultural Center in America. Nevertheless, I'll be eager to hear your reactions - both positive and negative. Thanks, as always, for your support.

Cool, excited to read it!

[ngokfei]

LOL

"I intentionally avoided Sal's work on this subject for our recent cover story. "

Why?

So, what was your sources for this material then? You do want to give credit to those individuals work.

You avoided his work to show respect for his research - now that doesn't make sense.

[GeneChing]

Sal's research is great. We published some over the years. It can be a little too focused for our general readership as his scholarship goes screaming above the heads of many of our readers and I hate to chop it up to make it fit within our format, so I've had to pass on a few, but that was not out of disrespect for his work. We're a newsstand mag, not a scholarly journal, so not everything works. Fortunately, there's the internet. As Sal does fine publishing it on his own, there's no need for me to repeat what he wrote. The point of that article was not to quote Sal.

The source for the bulk of the information was the subject of the article, Shi Yanxu. I supplemented some with my own research (believe it or not, I do research this stuff too :rolleyes:). Truth be told, I was actually hoping it would come out more divergent from Sal's stuff on Rouquan, just to get an alternate perspective, but he has the topic pretty well covered in his articles (I think all the important ones are cited in this thread).

But again, Rouquan was the hook. I only examined the history, methodology and roots of it in a very cursory manner. The piece was more about misconceptions of Shaolin (that it's only external) and trends in the Shaolin diaspora. Many Shaolin schools are moving ever so gently towards more internal methods like Rouquan. What's more, there was a major focus on the upcoming American Shaolin Festival which Yanxu is spearheading, as well as the new international ranking system. The song of Rouquan, which runs through the article, provided the chorus to discuss several other topics in the different verses. It was the cover story, after all. ;)

[LFJ]

as well as the new international ranking system.

Uh oh. More McTemples on the horizon?

[GeneChing]

You'll have to read the issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1088).

Look at the cover blurb carefully.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/cover2013_03.jpg

"Shaolin's new ranking systemS"

:cool:

[Sal Canzonieri]

Just 5 years ago, no one heard of Rou Quan most anywhere. Now it is all over the place, and there are tons of videos around.

But my articles still are the only ones that people quote from:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle36-ShaolinSoftBoxing.htm

There's much more about it in my forthcoming book.
I finally made it to chapter 5 of 8 in the final draft.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ha, thanks.



hey LFJ, realized we previously talked about Zhu Tianxi and his "creation" of set in the Ape Monkey Fist thread. Ren mentioned that he read that Zhu said he created the 6 Harmony qigong set (Nothing about him creating the other sets). and I responded with:

""Shaolin Wu Fang Chan Gong" 'Five Direction Chan Work' section of this book:
中医气功学
ISBN 978-7-80231-223-4

Some of the same postures with the same names, but the 3rd one is missing and instead a totally different 5th one is there (which is found in Chan Yuan Gong). And there is no 6th one.

So, I don't see how he "invented" it, just changed it to make it his own. "


So, Zhu or Shi Degen got it from there originally. Zhi must have reorganized it and renamed it.

So, that's one set that Zhu didn't create himself, the movements (even posture names) are from there.

He didn't originate the (18 ) Louhan 13 Postures material, so that leaves the 108 only. Being that there is video of him performing a version of it when he was much much younger (not exactly the same as the 108 in his older age video), then what did he do? add more to it to create his VCD version of the 108 (which I have seen called Da Rou Quan)? Hmmm.

[LFJ]

But does that book say anything on its history? It was just published in 2007. What's to say it wasn't drawn from Zhu Tianxi's?

Zhu said he created it after 10 years of study combining his Shaolin training with his knowledge of Neigong. The word he used is "duchuang" which means 'original creation'. Is it a blatant lie? :p

I definitely think his 108 Rouquan is more than likely his own. It combines sequences from Paoquan and 'his' Luohan sets, then it's all an extension of Chanyuangong. Many of the individual movements are indeed ancient, but as RenDaHai mentioned, it's not especially well structured like other ancient sets.

Do you have a video of his younger years performance of the 108? It would be interesting to see and compare nonetheless.

[Sal Canzonieri]

But does that book say anything on its history? It was just published in 2007. What's to say it wasn't drawn from Zhu Tianxi's?

Zhu said he created it after 10 years of study combining his Shaolin training with his knowledge of Neigong. The word he used is "duchuang" which means 'original creation'. Is it a blatant lie? :p

I definitely think his 108 Rouquan is more than likely his own. It combines sequences from Paoquan and 'his' Luohan sets, then it's all an extension of Chanyuangong. Many of the individual movements are indeed ancient, but as RenDaHai mentioned, it's not especially well structured like other ancient sets.

Do you have a video of his younger years performance of the 108? It would be interesting to see and compare nonetheless.

The book is a pretty deep overview of all different types of qigong and neigong. There's all different Shaolin and non-Shaolin material in the book. It doesn't give any indications that the set shown is from Zhu, especially since it has a different name and different ending moves. So, you could say he took his Shaolin training with is knowledge of neigong and modified this Wu Fang Chan Qigong set to make his Six Harmony, but he didn't make it out of thin air.

The 108 Rou Quan seems really disjointed like new sections were added in. The video I have of him when he is much younger is the same one that I have on my YouTube videos where he is doing the Jingang set and a lot of there ones. I will have to find it and post it on YouTube when I get the chance. It is a much more fluid set and flows well with the other Shi Degen material. His new version just looks like he made it longer by adding in the Chanyuan Qigong material into it.
He is really much younger in the original version, I don't see how he could have created it by then. Other people do the version I have seen in the original Rou Quan, not his newer 108 Rou Quan.

[GeneChing]

Changong Rouquan (Chan Merit Soft Fist) By Shi Yanxu 禪功柔拳 - 釋延續 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvayS2HgoP8)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Changong Rouquan (Chan Merit Soft Fist) By Shi Yanxu 禪功柔拳 - 釋延續 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvayS2HgoP8)

That's great, thanks!
Rou Quan Routine #1

#2 is a little shorter.

[GeneChing]

The Soft Fist (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1094) by Gene Ching and Gigi Oh.

Hope you invested in the print issue too. ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal! we need that video so bad! upload it please!

Okay, finally went to my storage area and found it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtJNf7vkWcU
That's the version he learned from Shi Degen, way back when. So there is clear doubt that he made it up himself.

compare to his newer version, all he did was add more moves from the Chan Yuan Gong set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb8ifq9xM00

and the history part at the beginning tells about there being 3 sets.

[SHemmati]

the forms are the same, just the newer form (in whcih Zhu is at least 20 years older) has an extra section. at the beginnings of the form, the performer goes to his left side, then he turns to the right going into pushing elbows in on horse stance. here the young Zhu shrinks body to T-stance after this mabu, while the older Zhu does a sequence of postures in between. this extra sequence is:
move forward push double palms, snap kick, double hammers strike stomach, double hammers strike ears, wave palm, shrink to rest stance, shrink to rest stance, striking hammers, turn to 7-star arms in T-stance, single whip arms on horse stance, and then comes to the mentioned shrink body to T-stance.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the forms are the same, just the newer form (in whcih Zhu is at least 20 years older) has an extra section. at the beginnings of the form, the performer goes to his left side, then he turns to the right going into pushing elbows in on horse stance. here the young Zhu shrinks body to T-stance after this mabu, while the older Zhu does a sequence of postures in between. this extra sequence is:
move forward push double palms, snap kick, double hammers strike stomach, double hammers strike ears, wave palm, shrink to rest stance, shrink to rest stance, striking hammers, turn to 7-star arms in T-stance, single whip arms on horse stance, and then comes to the mentioned shrink body to T-stance.

So, that's his big claim that he made up the form, when obviously its been around since when we was much younger and others in Shi Degen's lineage also did the set.
Same as with the Six Harmony Gong, he says he made it up, which he changed a few steps from the Shaolin 5 Directions Qigong, but it essentially is the same form.

So, there is still a lost Shaolin Rou quan set, they have the revived 36 postures yi lu and er lu sets. The Rou Quan in this video above is 108 postures (?), so there should be a middle 72 posture set. It discusses that on the narrative of one of the VCDs and also in another Shaolin medititational Qigong VCD series too it is mentioned, that 3 Rou Quan sets came from one lineage, and other Rou Quan sets came from other lineages.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That extra sequence he added makes the new version feel disjointed and out of sorts.

[SHemmati]

the form, with or without that extra section, has the Chan Yuan Gong material within. there's a close relation between this Rou quan and Chan Yuan Gong.

when it comes to Shi Degen, styles get complicated. Luohan quan and Rou quan, the 2 oldest Shaolin styles, have both versions coming out of Shi Degen's lineage and teachings, which seem strange and complicating the analyses! i think we are facing the same thing as we are about Luohan quan!

i think, like Luohan quan, we must put a distinction between Degen's lineage teachings and the nonhandled core Shaolin materials, so that the 3 Rou quans of shaolin are not of these Degen's forms, but are the 3 forms of the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the form, with or without that extra section, has the Chan Yuan Gong material within. there's a close relation between this Rou quan and Chan Yuan Gong.

when it comes to Shi Degen, styles get complicated. Luohan quan and Rou quan, the 2 oldest Shaolin styles, have both versions coming out of Shi Degen's lineage and teachings, which seem strange and complicating the analyses! i think we are facing the same thing as we are about Luohan quan!

i think, like Luohan quan, we must put a distinction between Degen's lineage teachings and the nonhandled core Shaolin materials, so that the 3 Rou quans of shaolin are not of these Degen's forms, but are the 3 forms of the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

Well, the three roads of Rou Quan described in the Shaolin Encyclopedia are practiced as 2 roads now: the famous Yi Lu and Er Lu. But Er Lu is only done at Dengfeng.
Another thing about this version of Rou Quan, they contain within them, if not done all super fast and sloppy like Shaolin monks often to this form (what an injustice!) you can see it, are the 32 forms of General Qi JiQuang's martial art shown in his famous military history book. As such, the set has a lot in common with Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures (they are all 32 posture sets!).

ALSO, it is THIS Shaolin set that was appropriated from, along with Xiao Hong Quan (not Da Hong quan at all) and Taizu Chang Quan, when Chen Taiji Quan was being reconstructed by the Chen family after the routines of Chen Wangting were said to have been lost (they were also merged with Tong Bei).

Now, the OTHER Rou Quan is very different as it has, as you said, the Chan Yuan Gong within its base. It also have tong bei quan in it. This would be a very internal Rou Quan and more like Qigong than like a boxing set like the Yi and Er Lu are.

So, I guess Shi Degen had no trouble teaching both versions of Rou Quan, since they are so different.