Continuous stepping without stepping...

[iron_leg_dave]

So my wife and I have battled over my kung fu room from the day that we moved into this townhouse almost two years ago. Really, it is the dining room and for furniture I have compromised to allow a card table, two bar stools and a stand for some plants and a clay buddha. Otherwise the room remains empty, for my kung fu which takes up a lot of space.
Recently, she became pregnant again and my kung fu room has turned into a storage facility while she loses her mind moving furniture and appliances around the house. I have resorted to practicing 2 wide steps or less leg drills and my sequences using only upper body techniques. I have discovered, that this has built strength in the sides of my waist.

Here is a video of Lien bu quan, the continuos stepping sequence... with no stepping....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMQzL7_izUI

[Shaolin]

An old timer told me once, "a happy wife is a happy life".

[David Jamieson]

An old timer told me once, "a happy wife is a happy life".

Well, if you're gonna have a wife, that is absolutely true. :)

[iron_leg_dave]

Thats a very sure bit of wisdom.

It is my one room. She gets everything else. Luckily, it has never been an argument because eventually she would win! In all reality, it is a dining room, how could I justifiably demand that there be no dining set? Plus it would be easier for the washer and dryer to be in there etc.

I am forutanate that she retains the respect to leave it empty. The only kind of lawn we have is the 3 feet between the house and sidewalk and the space where the dumpster sits on the otherside. My legs would turn into jelly within a couple of weeks if I didn't have that room.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So my wife and I have battled over my kung fu room from the day that we moved into this townhouse almost two years ago. Really, it is the dining room and for furniture I have compromised to allow a card table, two bar stools and a stand for some plants and a clay buddha. Otherwise the room remains empty, for my kung fu which takes up a lot of space.
Recently, she became pregnant again and my kung fu room has turned into a storage facility while she loses her mind moving furniture and appliances around the house. I have resorted to practicing 2 wide steps or less leg drills and my sequences using only upper body techniques. I have discovered, that this has built strength in the sides of my waist.

Here is a video of Lien bu quan, the continuos stepping sequence... with no stepping....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMQzL7_izUI

But, okay, sure this is actually good for training, but you're just waving your arms around.
This is a golden opportunity to practice whole body movement, generate the movement from the dantian area, don't let your arms wave around, have them follow the spiraling of your waist. A strike done this way is way more powerful than one with shoulder strength movement.

[iron_leg_dave]

But, okay, sure this is actually good for training, but you're just waving your arms around.
This is a golden opportunity to practice whole body movement, generate the movement from the dantian area, don't let your arms wave around, have them follow the spiraling of your waist. A strike done this way is way more powerful than one with shoulder strength movement.


I have been thinking about how to approach this response. I don't want to sound rude or arrogant, or like I know something.

I do understand basic longfist theory, and xing yi theory also. I have had and currently have multiple qualified teachers and a high level of comprehension. The problem could be the frontal view of the torso, or the fact that since I do practice a lot of xing yi, my torso movements are strong and subtle rather than loose and and large.

Or it could be a legitimate lack of skill accrued over these 8 short years of daily longfist...

If you have some freetime, would you watch it again to come from a fresh perspective, and then elaborate so that I can clearly understand what you are saying about my power generation?

If so, thanks. If not thanks for giving me something to ponder.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Dave,

Please don't take this wrong, but eight years is still a beginner, especially to Sal.

I won't try to speak for Sal, but I agree with him, it appears, from the video, that your movements lack effective pelvic movement. If your pelvis is squared to your target your power is diminished.

It is axiomatic that power is generated from the hips, but the origin of the power is from the rear foot pushing off the ground. The body then twists, or undulates in a whip-like fashion,, as the power moves from the ground up through your pelvis/tan tien, through your shoulders and arm to the point of impact. The movement may be pronounced or very subtle as circumstance dictates.

Do not think of striking with your arms or fist, think of striking with your pelvis/tan tien. You will know it when you are able to perform it correctlly because you can feel it and the power of your strikes will increase geometrically.

Think "push off the rear foot" and twist the pelvis towards your target. This applies whether the strike is with the front hand, the rear hand and regardless of whether it is a linear strike or a circular strike.

[LFJ]

you could watch his full run at it and judge.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ironlegdave#play/uploads/5/s8g5w9V6S-s

[Scott R. Brown]

I do not want to comment on it unless Dave requests it. I do applaud him for putting himself out there and showing his accomplishment, but there is always something to criticize in just about anyone's form. Even a Master is likely to find flaws within his own form.

I feel a critique without a request for one might be considered unkind in this environment.

[iron_leg_dave]

Hi Dave,

Please don't take this wrong, but eight years is still a beginner, especially to Sal.

I won't try to speak for Sal, but I agree with him, it appears, from the video, that your movements lack effective pelvic movement. If your pelvis is squared to your target your power is diminished.

It is axiomatic that power is generated from the hips, but the origin of the power is from the rear foot pushing off the ground. The body then twists, or undulates in a whip-like fashion,, as the power moves from the ground up through your pelvis/tan tien, through your shoulders and arm to the point of impact. The movement may be pronounced or very subtle as circumstance dictates.

Do not think of striking with your arms or fist, think of striking with your pelvis/tan tien. You will know it when you are able to perform it correctlly because you can feel it and the power of your strikes will increase geometrically.

Think "push off the rear foot" and twist the pelvis towards your target. This applies whether the strike is with the front hand, the rear hand and regardless of whether it is a linear strike or a circular strike.



Right, the thing is I wasn't putting up a video for the purpose of critique or it wouldn't have been in my messy bedroom for one thing!

Haha.

Its not a performance, I'm just trying to be social with you guys... Most of my friends that do kung fu are too lazy to kick it with on this level. So here it is, lets keep in mind that is a mature discussion right?

The power in longfist is not generated from the rear foot. It is not generated from the front foot either. In fact, the feet don't generate the power in any kung fu.

The first thing to move, is the mind. So it is the mind which generates power. Any thought other than a movment (a kind of thought because it is an action controlled by the mind and what does the mind do other than "think"). The next thing to move is the qi. The breath and a neurological signal. Next are the kua. In a forward step with one leg behind, the back leg kua pulls forward and the front leg kua pinches shut by leading backward. The front foot therefore must drill into the earth, pulling slightly slightly inward. The rear foot also presses the ground pulling the rear leg slightly inward. Therefore the legs pull together, and acting in unison, they retrieve power from the ground.

But, it is the turning of the pelvis that generatesthe power into the legs, and directs the rebounding force back up from the earth and into the torso. Now the lumbars, abdominal sheeth and obliques decide which side of the shoulders will pull and which side will push, or if both will pull or both will push. Then the shoulders, elbows wrists etc....

I am just trying to demonstrate that I know what you are talking about, and my claim is that if it is skillful, the motion of the pelvis, spine and torso are relatively subtle so as not too waste any energy. Also, that some power is generated in the muscles, some in the correct mechanics, some in the mind, and some in the "qi".

[iron_leg_dave]

Also, just to clarify, my feet are together, I am talking about literally standing up and doing the form... if that makes it any easier to see.

The weight shift from foot to foot is so subtle that you can hardly see it... but you can feel it in your feet, legs and core afterward. Not to get back on topic or anything... Haha.

[Scott R. Brown]

Right, the thing is I wasn't putting up a video for the purpose of critique or it wouldn't have been in my messy bedroom for one thing!

Haha.

Its not a performance, I'm just trying to be social with you guys... Most of my friends that do kung fu are too lazy to kick it with on this level. So here it is, lets keep in mind that is a mature discussion right?

The power in longfist is not generated from the rear foot. It is not generated from the front foot either. In fact, the feet don't generate the power in any kung fu.

The first thing to move, is the mind. So it is the mind which generates power. Any thought other than a movment (a kind of thought because it is an action controlled by the mind and what does the mind do other than "think"). The next thing to move is the qi. The breath and a neurological signal. Next are the kua. In a forward step with one leg behind, the back leg kua pulls forward and the front leg kua pinches shut by leading backward. The front foot therefore must drill into the earth, pulling slightly slightly inward. The rear foot also presses the ground pulling the rear leg slightly inward. Therefore the legs pull together, and acting in unison, they retrieve power from the ground.

But, it is the turning of the pelvis that generatesthe power into the legs, and directs the rebounding force back up from the earth and into the torso. Now the lumbars, abdominal sheeth and obliques decide which side of the shoulders will pull and which side will push, or if both will pull or both will push. Then the shoulders, elbows wrists etc....

I am just trying to demonstrate that I know what you are talking about, and my claim is that if it is skillful, the motion of the pelvis, spine and torso are relatively subtle so as not too waste any energy. Also, that some power is generated in the muscles, some in the correct mechanics, some in the mind, and some in the "qi".

Well I guess it is a matter of perspective.

I would say you have much less understanding of Kung Fu than you believe.

[iron_leg_dave]

Well I guess it is a matter of perspective.

I would say you have much less understanding of Kung Fu than you believe.


Well, I hope that is forever the case. That way it will never get boring.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, I hope that is forever the case. That way it will never get boring.

And you will continue to learn and improve!

[iron_leg_dave]

Thanks, I hope so... I have vested interest beyond belief! :p

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Dave,

Please don't take this wrong, but eight years is still a beginner, especially to Sal.

I won't try to speak for Sal, but I agree with him, it appears, from the video, that your movements lack effective pelvic movement. If your pelvis is squared to your target your power is diminished.

It is axiomatic that power is generated from the hips, but the origin of the power is from the rear foot pushing off the ground. The body then twists, or undulates in a whip-like fashion,, as the power moves from the ground up through your pelvis/tan tien, through your shoulders and arm to the point of impact. The movement may be pronounced or very subtle as circumstance dictates.

Do not think of striking with your arms or fist, think of striking with your pelvis/tan tien. You will know it when you are able to perform it correctlly because you can feel it and the power of your strikes will increase geometrically.

Think "push off the rear foot" and twist the pelvis towards your target. This applies whether the strike is with the front hand, the rear hand and regardless of whether it is a linear strike or a circular strike.

This is exactly what I mean, you are spelling it out perfectly, thanks!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Right, the thing is I wasn't putting up a video for the purpose of critique or it wouldn't have been in my messy bedroom for one thing!

Haha.

Its not a performance, I'm just trying to be social with you guys... Most of my friends that do kung fu are too lazy to kick it with on this level. So here it is, lets keep in mind that is a mature discussion right?

The power in longfist is not generated from the rear foot. It is not generated from the front foot either. In fact, the feet don't generate the power in any kung fu.

The first thing to move, is the mind. So it is the mind which generates power. Any thought other than a movment (a kind of thought because it is an action controlled by the mind and what does the mind do other than "think"). The next thing to move is the qi. The breath and a neurological signal. Next are the kua. In a forward step with one leg behind, the back leg kua pulls forward and the front leg kua pinches shut by leading backward. The front foot therefore must drill into the earth, pulling slightly slightly inward. The rear foot also presses the ground pulling the rear leg slightly inward. Therefore the legs pull together, and acting in unison, they retrieve power from the ground.

But, it is the turning of the pelvis that generatesthe power into the legs, and directs the rebounding force back up from the earth and into the torso. Now the lumbars, abdominal sheeth and obliques decide which side of the shoulders will pull and which side will push, or if both will pull or both will push. Then the shoulders, elbows wrists etc....

I am just trying to demonstrate that I know what you are talking about, and my claim is that if it is skillful, the motion of the pelvis, spine and torso are relatively subtle so as not too waste any energy. Also, that some power is generated in the muscles, some in the correct mechanics, some in the mind, and some in the "qi".

Cool, yeah we are having a friendly discussion, this benefits everyone else too, cool.

Well, from what you say here, you do understand the generation of movement.
Whether it is "internal" or "external" (no such thing really, everything is internal if done right) what you described is the method.

Maybe the camera is making optical illusions, I know whenever I try to film or photograph myself, the camera never seems to make it look like I have my knee over my toeline when moving, and we even measure with a ruler to get it right and the camera still makes it look like I am up too high for some reason.

But, just to make sure, I looked at this video of the full form with stepping of yours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8g5w9V6S-s
and it appears that your timing is off, at least the camera is doing it, if not you.
Like your top half of your body is a few second late of the movement generated from the bottom half. Instead of them being simultaneous.
Its the same thing I saw in the initial video you posted in this thread.

On another note, the Shaolin Chan Yuan drills are the greatest thing to practice when you have no stepping room, the teach you everything you need to do in order to move from the bottom and have the spiral energy and movements coordinate the whole body as one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8tMO0Gb8gs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKS670txV4

[iron_leg_dave]

Cool, yeah we are having a friendly discussion, this benefits everyone else too, cool.

Well, from what you say here, you do understand the generation of movement.
Whether it is "internal" or "external" (no such thing really, everything is internal if done right) what you described is the method.

Maybe the camera is making optical illusions, I know whenever I try to film or photograph myself, the camera never seems to make it look like I have my knee over my toeline when moving, and we even measure with a ruler to get it right and the camera still makes it look like I am up too high for some reason.

But, just to make sure, I looked at this video of the full form with stepping of yours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8g5w9V6S-s
and it appears that your timing is off, at least the camera is doing it, if not you.
Like your top half of your body is a few second late of the movement generated from the bottom half. Instead of them being simultaneous.
Its the same thing I saw in the initial video you posted in this thread.

On another note, the Shaolin Chan Yuan drills are the greatest thing to practice when you have no stepping room, the teach you everything you need to do in order to move from the bottom and have the spiral energy and movements coordinate the whole body as one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8tMO0Gb8gs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKS670txV4

Hm.

It feels right... and people become injured when I hit them... but thats all I can say for myself. Thanks dude, I will get in front of the mirror and see whats going on. I recently had a lower back injury, and practiced my kung fu "softly" just to keep playing the movements but with absolutely no force whatsoever and that lasted a couple of months. It is possible that I am unconsiously holding tension in the lower spine and that that is the root of the problem if one exists.

[iron_leg_dave]

But, just to make sure, I looked at this video of the full form with stepping of yours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8g5w9V6S-s]

Oh gawd. Ha! Thats when I got fat. I went through this cheeseburgers and beer phase.
I've meant to take that down but I need to make some full speed real videos of those forms outside while the weather is good first.

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh gawd. Ha! Thats when I got fat. I went through this cheeseburgers and beer phase.
I've meant to take that down but I need to make some full speed real videos of those forms outside while the weather is good first.

That would be a good idea. Especially if it is a poor example. If that was filmed when your back was injured that would account for my poor impression too. Since Sal commented on it, if you don't mind I will make a comment too.

The form appears mechanical. Protecting an injury would make it appear so.

While you have the movements down with some precision, you don't have the heart of the movements yet. This is partially due to incorrect timing, and partially due to an incomplete mind set. Relax the mind more, some call this "emptying the mind" and let the body move on its own. Don't TRY to do the movements, JUST DO THEM! Once you understand the movements in the proper sequence, with proper body alignments etc. the body will inform you, if you have the right mind set.

But then THAT is what takes years of practice! The form should appear less thought out and more natural. The timing for your power generation was off as well.

It is less important that the people you strike feel your power, and more important that you generate power effortlessly. Just because you can strike hard does not mean you are striking with optimal efficiency. When you improve your technique, you will be more powerful with less effort.

Relax your shoulders more. :)

[iron_leg_dave]

That would be a good idea. Especially if it is a poor example. If that was filmed when your back was injured that would account for my poor impression too. Since Sal commented on it, if you don't mind I will make a comment too.

The form appears mechanical. Protecting an injury would make it appear so.

While you have the movements down with some precision, you don't have the heart of the movements yet. This is partially due to incorrect timing, and partially due to an incomplete mind set. Relax the mind more, some call this "emptying the mind" and let the body move on its own. Don't TRY to do the movements, JUST DO THEM! Once you understand the movements in the proper sequence, with proper body alignments etc. the body will inform you, if you have the right mind set.

But then THAT is what takes years of practice! The form should appear less thought out and more natural. The timing for your power generation was off as well.

It is less important that the people you strike feel your power, and more important that you generate power effortlessly. Just because you can strike hard does not mean you are striking with optimal efficiency. When you improve your technique, you will be more powerful with less effort.

Relax your shoulders more. :)


Hm, good post. I don't know what you mean with the last paragraph, but I do see it... if you know what I mean. Which is what you were aiming to do I think. Thanks then, thats very helpful. I will post another one next year.

What do you think about the meteor fists?

In the little tiger swallow form, the mechanics feel totally different from this one, but the only real difference is that the arm doesn't slap the opposite palm instead it just stops near the waist.
What feels different, is that it feels like the fist should be almost directly over the shoulder, whereas in this form, it feels like the arms should be at like 30 degree angles to the body. I don't get it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Dave,

The last paragraph was in response to your response to Sal. You said, "It feels right... and people become injured when I hit them... but thats all I can say for myself."

So I was commenting that a punch may be powerful, but still not be optimally efficient. A well executed strike uses less physical power and more technique. Years ago on one of the learning channels I watched scientists test a boxer's punching power. I do not remember his exact weight, but it was somewhere between 145#-165#. His punching power we equivalent to a 250# man. You don't generate that much power with strength. It is the feet, hips and shoulders that do it. You should be hitting with your body, not your muscles or your arms. When I strike I consider everything past my elbow as a weapon and not actually part of my body. I feel myself striking with my elbow even though the impact point may be my fist. This is not to be confused with an elbow strike. The last joint used in a linear strike, with the exception of the vertical fist, is the elbow. everything past the elbow is one solid piece. Another way to think of it is the forearm is the nail and the elbow the hammer. You are driving the nail into your target.

As far as a more thorough analysis of your form in regards to exact foot and hand placement, order of movements, and other details, I will leave that to Sal if he chooses to comment. I am more of a underlying principle sort of guy, not a detail minded one. Sal has much more experience than I in that depart and I would always defer to his expertise.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hm, good post. I don't know what you mean with the last paragraph, but I do see it... if you know what I mean. Which is what you were aiming to do I think. Thanks then, thats very helpful. I will post another one next year.

What do you think about the meteor fists?

In the little tiger swallow form, the mechanics feel totally different from this one, but the only real difference is that the arm doesn't slap the opposite palm instead it just stops near the waist.
What feels different, is that it feels like the fist should be almost directly over the shoulder, whereas in this form, it feels like the arms should be at like 30 degree angles to the body. I don't get it.

Well, to tell the truth, the Lien Bu form is not from Shaolin originally, they started doing it there since the 1920s.
It is a Dragon set from the Wudang internal martial arts style. It is really supposed to be done like fast Taiji if you know what I mean. It should have lots of twisting energy generating from the waist.

The Little Tiger Swallow set is from Shandong province, far west of where Lien Bu comes from, as such it should have all attack and defense movements coming from an angle out of the centerline. Pretty much this is a Mizong (Lost Track) Quan set originally (which itself is a mixture of Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan and Shandong Meihua Zhuang Quan - Plum Flower Poles Boxing), something like a cross between Muslim Cha Quan and Preying Mantis (which adopted this set for this very reason).

[iron_leg_dave]

Hi Dave,

The last paragraph was in response to your response to Sal. You said, "It feels right... and people become injured when I hit them... but thats all I can say for myself."

So I was commenting that a punch may be powerful, but still not be optimally efficient. A well executed strike uses less physical power and more technique. Years ago on one of the learning channels I watched scientists test a boxer's punching power. I do not remember his exact weight, but it was somewhere between 145#-165#. His punching power we equivalent to a 250# man. You don't generate that much power with strength. It is the feet, hips and shoulders that do it. You should be hitting with your body, not your muscles or your arms. When I strike I consider everything past my elbow as a weapon and not actually part of my body. I feel myself striking with my elbow even though the impact point may be my fist. This is not to be confused with an elbow strike. The last joint used in a linear strike, with the exception of the vertical fist, is the elbow. everything past the elbow is one solid piece. Another way to think of it is the forearm is the nail and the elbow the hammer. You are driving the nail into your target.

As far as a more thorough analysis of your form in regards to exact foot and hand placement, order of movements, and other details, I will leave that to Sal if he chooses to comment. I am more of a underlying principle sort of guy, not a detail minded one. Sal has much more experience than I in that depart and I would always defer to his expertise.


Thanks Scott.

[iron_leg_dave]

Well, to tell the truth, the Lien Bu form is not from Shaolin originally, they started doing it there since the 1920s.
It is a Dragon set from the Wudang internal martial arts style. It is really supposed to be done like fast Taiji if you know what I mean. It should have lots of twisting energy generating from the waist.

The Little Tiger Swallow set is from Shandong province, far west of where Lien Bu comes from, as such it should have all attack and defense movements coming from an angle out of the centerline. Pretty much this is a Mizong (Lost Track) Quan set originally (which itself is a mixture of Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan and Shandong Meihua Zhuang Quan - Plum Flower Poles Boxing), something like a cross between Muslim Cha Quan and Preying Mantis (which adopted this set for this very reason).


I see.

So in practice, how should Lien Bu be played and how should Lttle Tiger Swallow be executed?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I see.

So in practice, how should Lien Bu be played and how should Lttle Tiger Swallow be executed?

Lien Bu like fast taiji.

Xiao Hu Yan like long fist Mantis.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Sal,

I did a YouTube search for Lien Bu. Do you have a link for a properly executed form?

I can't seem to find one!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

I did a YouTube search for Lien Bu. Do you have a link for a properly executed form?

I can't seem to find one!

Most people do it like robots, mostly because they are trying to learn the postures.
The name means Linking Steps, which the purpose of the set is to learn how to connect your movements together flowingly, ha.

It's spelled Lian Bu in Pinyin, not lien bu.
I searched using the chinese characters, and found two decent ones, the first one does it Wudang internal style, the second one the long fist way.

These are good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsaync2CPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jByi_m4dJ2I

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank you Sal I really appreciate that you took the time to find them for me!:)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thank you Sal I really appreciate that you took the time to find them for me!:)

I appreciate people that care about what they are doing and learning enough to have decent and civil discussions with people.
I'm always learning something new so I am always willing to pass on something new to others.

I've learned at least one thing in life from martial arts, which is, "the more you give, the more you get".
If you concern yourself with helping others and doing what you can, then everything flows into place, as you need it.
Most people take and take in the world, but if one instead fills their basket with giving to others with overflowing, then one is naturally taken care of by the world around you.

[iron_leg_dave]

Lien Bu like fast taiji.

Xiao Hu Yan like long fist Mantis.

Got it. I've heard so many versions over the years. I play all of my longfist forms in various ways, and one way that I like to play lien bu is like taiji.

Thanks!

Give it atleast a few months, then I'll post another go.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Got it. I've heard so many versions over the years. I play all of my longfist forms in various ways, and one way that I like to play lien bu is like taiji.

Thanks!

Give it atleast a few months, then I'll post another go.

By the way, most people's opening movement posture is incorrect. That's a 20th century way it was changed.

You don't really make your arms parallel to each other and the floor, instead you angle your elbows down so that it looks like you are holding a large ball.

[iron_leg_dave]

By the way, most people's opening movement posture is incorrect. That's a 20th century way it was changed.

You don't really make your arms parallel to each other and the floor, instead you angle your elbows down so that it looks like you are holding a large ball.

That is exactly how I do it.

Actually, that is what first initiated me tying my longfist into my taiji. I took ball holding in the first form as a subtle hint.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That is exactly how I do it.

Actually, that is what first initiated me tying my longfist into my taiji. I took ball holding in the first form as a subtle hint.

Taji is long fist.

[iron_leg_dave]

Taji is long fist.

That it is, and what brought me to that realization, later confirmed for me in an article by Adam Hsu, was that very posture in Lien Bu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That it is, and what brought me to that realization, later confirmed for me in an article by Adam Hsu, was that very posture in Lien Bu.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm

[iron_leg_dave]

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle30.htm

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticleComparisonChart.htm

Very cool!