2 man sets

[grifter721]

Does anyone know any two man sets, besides Stomping steps?
I know 2 2 man sets, Stomping steps and Broadsword
fighting with the spear....If anyone know broadsword fighting with the spear how long is yours?

[grifter721]

oh yeah and does 8 step have any intricate 2 man sets?

[EARTH DRAGON]

yes young sparrow. (fai lung yen)

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kiasyd]

In 7-star praying mantis we train a beginner set called Ling Pa Kahn (or something like that :) ), but there are inumerous other sets. Basically every form that has the word Ling on in is a 2-man set :)

-- Kiasyd

[Young Mantis]

Grifter721,

The Northern Praying Mantis System has many partner forms, both empty-hand and weapons. You can check www.northernmantis.com (http://www.northernmantis.com) for a listing of the forms taught at our school.

YM

[18elders]

I know a broadsword/spear set and it is very long. It also ends up as an empty set in the end after the weapons are disarmed from each other.
As far as the empty hand sets, every form i have learned has has a 2 person set to it as well as numerous 2 person drills from the sets.

[yingching]

There is quite a bit of difference between a Ling and a Doy da. All Mantis sets can be played with a partner. However the Doy Da set requires a partner such as Toe Fa San Doy Da (Peach FLower Umbrella Boxing.

[Tainan Mantis]

Earth Dragon, can you provide more details about this 2 man form?
I know of Hsiao Hu Yen(Little Tiger Sparrow) practiced in Taiwan by practicioners of 7 star, Plum Flower and 8 Step.
The most famous teacher of this form being Wang Song Ting.I suspect that we may be talking about the same form, but as near as I can make out the form Fai(fei?) Long Yen means Flying Dragon Sparrow.

[18elders]

Hey buddy, how's things in Taiwan?
Spoke to your sister as did John. He is sending the package to you. Let me know what you think.

[Tainan Mantis]

I accidentally taught my students the secret techniques and now they're mopping the floor with my butt.
Shr-fu said he'd like to have some USA seminars in March.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I sorry I got my sets mixed up , you are correct but master wei called young sparrow! I would imagine it is the same and Im sure your translation and mandarin is better than mine LOL it is a countinous set with backfists, spinning kicks, trapping and power cuts. Is this the form you are thinking of? My teacher is from taipei so I would imagine not much is different. thanks

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[18elders]

That would be great if he comes over, i think Shr-fu would like him to come over before March also.
I'm not sure if he sent the package yet, i'll ask him tomorrow in class.
Next time you come back to the states you'll have to stay longer!

[Tainan Mantis]

This set, Hsiao Hu Yen, is very popular in Taibei. The 1 & 2 man are still practiced by many people so I'm sure it is the same form.
This form has at least 2 names. Many years ago when it was part of the Long Fist system it was called," Roaring Sparrow Tiger "-same pronunciation as the modern version.
After it was adopted by Mantis the name was changed to,"Little Sparrow Tiger" and 2 more versions were created called,"Middle... " and,"Large...."
These later additions are in the same spirit as the original, containing; Longfist, Ground Boxing(Ditang), Shaolin, and Mantis.
There are still people who practice Hsiao Hu Yen under the original title. Their form has more of a Shaolin look. It is not very popular, probably because it just doesn't look as good as the version you practice.
As I said before the famous teacher of this form is Wong Song Ting, a contemporary of Wei Hsiao Tang.He taught it to my Shr-fu's master Li Hong Jie of the Plum Blossum style. Has your master mentioned your school's lineage of this form? I am curiuos because I have never seen any 2 dif schools do the form with same moves. Usually about 80% the same.
Master Wang is known to have taught many dif masters.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on this topic, do you know if the Xiao Hou Yuan practiced in YMAA (from Nanjing's central kuoshu institute) ressembles the one you are mentionning in your post??
Just curious...

[EARTH DRAGON]

yes he has mentioned plum flower but not really sure on direct master to sifu teachings. chiang hua long creator of ba bu tang lang was a seven star master but he did learn from other masters who were plum flower, before our system was born our system is only 357 years old, basically new but there is a web site that lists lineage from all mantis stlyes www.goecities.com/mantiscave (http://www.goecities.com/mantiscave)

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

You are talking about Dr Yang's form that was published in his book,"Long Fist", right? I can not answer this question.
This is what my teacher noticed about the form. He said that he has seen or learned the form from many dif people and everyone does it differently. Unless there is a kung fu book from the old Nanjing school on this form, then it is almost impossible to say how it was done 100 years ago. But such a book may exist that was published before WW2. Has anyone heard?

[Crimson Phoenix]

A friend of mine went to YMAA's summer camp last year, and Li Mao Ching was there...he apparently made only slight variants on the forms (like, put your hand next to here instead of there for example), so I guess the way Yang does his longfist forms is the same as Li Mao Ching, hence we can assume that it is how it was done in Nanjing, if that can help...but since you said your sifu mentionned that he said many versions, maybe there's no need to look for further "unicity"....
Thanks!!

[NPM]

The Northern 7* Praying Mantis System, as passed down by late Great Grand Master Law, Gwong Yook has many two-person empty-hand sparring forms. All of these partner forms are categorized into two major types.

The first type is called the "Ling Kuen" or ling form. The Chinese word "ling" means to lead or to understand. Thus the title refers to the second person leading the first into doing the movements of the form and also the partner form's purpose of understanding the techniques and theories of each form. Every empty-hand solo form passed down by Law, Gwong Yook to Wong, Hon Funn can be done with a partner from beginning to end. One person does the form as it is in the solo version and the other person, the one doing the "ling" side, does the attacks and reactions that accompany each technique of the solo side. So the partner forms for Bung Bo, Sup Baht Sao, Daw Ghong, Tsahp Tchoy, Bahk Yuen Tchut Dhong, Bahk Yuen Tao Tow, etc. would be called Ling Bung Bo, Ling Sup Baht Sao, Ling Daw Ghong, Ling Tsahp Tchoy, Ling Bahk Yuen Tchut Dhong, Ling Bahk Yuen Tao Tow, etc.

In Hong Kong, amongst the practitioners of the Wong, Hon Funn lineage, almost all intermediate to advanced level students would have learnt Ling Bung Bo, Ling Sup Baht Sao, and Ling Daw Ghong. Some of the more advanced students, graduated students, and disciples would have learnt more than the three mentioned above.

The second category of two-person empty-hand sparring forms is called "Doyee Da" or partner fighting and includes the forms "Toe Fah Sahn" (Peach Flower Blooming) and "Tao Dzeep" (Stealing and Connecting). These two-person forms do not have solo versions like the ling forms but like all forms, they train specific types of techniques and fighting strategies.

Besides the "doyee da" there are also forms like "Pahk Awn" (Strike and Press) and "Dzeem Sao" (Sticking Hands) although calling them forms seems to be a bit of a misnomer. They are actually partner-based reflex and sensitivity exercises using specific techniques and strategies. When first learned, they have a basic sequence mostly for learning all the techniques of this exercise. As practice advances, the subsets or techniques can be shifted around depending on the attack or counter-attack but always staying within a range of techniques. Another exercise similar to this is "Hahk Fu Tao Sum" (Black Tiger Ambushes). In this partner exercise, only one sequence of techniques is practiced and trains not only the technique but also reaction time and distance.

I hope I have answered and clarified any misconceptions regarding the two-person empty-hand forms of the Northern 7* Praying Mantis System of the LGY lineage.

NPM

[Kiasyd]

Thanks for sharing this knowledge! It's a great post! :)

-- Kiasyd

[Oso]

ttt

another decent thread...

[Brazil Mantis]

Dear NPM,

thank you very much for this clear post about two man set of Praying Mantis System.

If possible, I would like to know about 'Ling' of Dai Fan Che Set. As a basic and rigid form, this one is a bit diferent than Bung Bo, Sup Baht Sao, Daw Ghong and others and Dai Fan Che has a Ling as theses others forms?

I can see each motion and application as Seung Foon Sao Ton Choi - Pek Choi - Pek Choi - Ton Choi and Tau Sum Choi but complete set has connection from the top to end?

Sincerely,

[Oso]

Brazil Mantis...umm, not sure if NPM is still around...that post is over 4 years old.

Wasn't sure if you saw how old this thread was.

[Brazil Mantis]

Oso,

thanks for tell me. I did not look before post here...

Ual, over 4 years!!

All the best,

[Robert Young]

> Crimson Phoenix

> A friend of mine went to YMAA's summer camp last year, and Li Mao Ching was
> there...he apparently made only slight variants on the forms (like, put your
> hand next to here instead of there for example), so I guess the way Yang does
> is longfist forms is the same as Li Mao Ching, hence we can assume that it is
> how it was done in Nanjing, if that can help...but since you said your sifu
> mentionned that he said many versions, maybe there's no need to look for
> further "unicity"....

> Thanks!!


I accidentally read this part of post. I think I can clear some of the question here.

The form, Xiao Hu Yian, mentioned in the Yang's book is from 7 Star PM GM Wang Song-Ting. Yang learned the form from his teacher Master Li Mao-Ching. The Xiao Hu Yian Master Li learned was from his senior LF brother who learned from GM Wong Song-Ting.

Other Long Fist forms in the book were Long Fist styles from Sang Dong where my GM Han grew up. The only two exceptions are Lien Bu and Gong Li that were from Nang Jin Guo Shu Guan.

GM Wang was a very difficult master to learn from. If a student asked second time for demonstration of the form he taught, the student has better prepare to get a hit, a real hit. If a student want to learn the application of the moves in the form, he also better prepare to get a real hit or throw. That is why the same form learned from GM Wang from two different students end up different. This is the general situation of GM Wang when he taught.

Cheers,