Juk Jong - Bamboo Dummy

[Yoshiyahu]

With In the Wing Chun Yuen Kay San system there is a freestyle Bamboo Dummy.

I have not heard of any practioners in America who uses this Dummy

Does anyone here know where to obtained a Bamboo dummy or what it looks like?

Does anyone here use the Bamboo Dummy?


After, the Muk Yan Jong is used, allowing a student to pretend they have an enemy present in training. With a classmate in chi sao, a student must be careful not to cause harm, but with a dummy more power is possible. This brings the techniques together, giving the practitioner flexibility.

Also this statement about the regular wooden dummy seems to mean one can use power on the dummy? is this correct. Most Yip Man students say they never use power on the dummy. Just proper structure?


In Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen, there is also a Juk Jong (Bamboo Dummy) that has twelve bamboo hands. The Juk Jong methods are all free-style, using the only the methods of Wing Chun Kuen as guidelines. The Juk Jong was used many years ago on the Red Junks. They would put bamboo arms through the cabins that had weights on the back ends. In use, they functioned like the Lien Wan Sa Bao (Linked Chain Sand Bags- a group of sand bags hung together). If a student is slow, they will be hit by the return of a previously struck arm (or sand bag).

Here is some information concerning the Juk Jong I found interesting!



cite information:

http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-practitioners-leung-dai-chiu-teacher-of-wing-chun-kuen/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080330095621AAHl0Xp

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_leung01.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

The dummy serves its purpose, you just have to decide what you wanna use it for.

I hope that I live to see that day where we will have holographic training partners ALA Star trek: the next generation, because that would be so freaking cool !!

One can only imagine the level we could take our MA skills if we had holographic training partners !!

[Pacman]

you should not be trying to kill the dummy with every move. that defeats the purpose of training the dummy

[sanjuro_ronin]

you should not be trying to kill the dummy with every move. that defeats the purpose of training the dummy

At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.

[Yoshiyahu]

At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.

So true. The Dummy is to build proper use of fighting power. But the dummy Form can be practiced in air. This way you build flow. An increase flexibility.

In the Yuen kay san we have three Jongs

Muk Yan Jong - Wooden Dummy for building power, conditioning, proper structure, correct alignment and footwork posistioning.

Juk Jong - Freestyle bamboo dummy for conditioning, free flow, continous attack and defend, getting use to retraction or reaction of the arms.

Hong Jong - The Air Dummy is is Yin way of doing the Dummy form. One benefit is building Chi the Yin way by practicing the form repetitiously. Also you can strecth out the arms as well and get fuller extension thus building more follow through power. You are developing Chi in a different way but also you can continously flow with out obstructions. Availability is another thing. The air dummy can be done anywhere. or slightly modified upon a tree.

But sanjuro I don't usually agree with you. But I was actually thinking of the Holographic star trek thing today. Your right that would be totally cool. But that would elimanate alot classroom or dojo training too. People would just log on to a holodeck all day to fight and train martial arts.

Heres a wierd ID take the matrix's Idea where you can down load and Martial Art system into your brain. And then go on a holodeck to harness the skills and muscle memory to go with your knowledge...

Wow I hate to fight that guy...

[Pacman]

At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.

what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy

[sanjuro_ronin]

what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy

The dummy can be used to drill your feel, to condition, to drill the stability, the solidness of your deflections, to drill the placement of your centerline and more.
It can be done at a slow and "soft" pace or it can be banged like a Tijuana Hooker on a friday night after payday.
You get out of the dummy what you put in, you put in half baked effort, you get hal baked effort.
Of course, you don't have to agree, to each their own.

[kung fu fighter]

Here is the bamboo dummy and some of it's applications http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjs-roWT1zw

[Yoshiyahu]

what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy

What is the one purpose you know of?

Are you familiar with kuit kuen that speaks about the dummy?

[Pacman]

The dummy can be used to drill your feel, to condition, to drill the stability, the solidness of your deflections, to drill the placement of your centerline and more.
It can be done at a slow and "soft" pace or it can be banged like a Tijuana Hooker on a friday night after payday.
You get out of the dummy what you put in, you put in half baked effort, you get hal baked effort.
Of course, you don't have to agree, to each their own.

haha good one about the hooker

from what i know, the purpose of the dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently. it is not used to develop power

to be fast in your combos you do not want to manhandle the dummy with every movement because for one it is not necessary to use much strength to deflect an arm and two it will slow you down with tension

[Yoshiyahu]

haha good one about the hooker

from what i know, the purpose of the dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently. it is not used to develop power

to be fast in your combos you do not want to manhandle the dummy with every movement because for one it is not necessary to use much strength to deflect an arm and two it will slow you down with tension

Okay I agree with constant use of stiff power and rigidness. However I have always read and heard the dummy is for power training. You hit the dummy alot harder than actual training partner.

Are you familiar with the Wing Chun Maxims on the dummy form???



Maxims of Wing Chun


Wing Chun Kuen Kuit


Wing Chun Training Proverbs

- The Wooden Man develops use of power.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Wing_Chun_Training_Proverbs


The Wooden Man

- There are 108 movements for the Wooden Man; repeated practice brings proper use of power.

- Steps vary and always maintain close contact with the Wooden Man.

- Power starts from the heart and shoots towards the centerline of the Mok Yan Jong.

- Up, down, back and forth, the movements are continuous.

- Power improvement cannot be predicted.

- The arm bridge sticks to the hands of the Wooden Man while moving; adhesion power when achieved will be a threatening force.

- Power can be released in the intended manner; use of the line and position will be proper and hard to defeat.



http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#The_Wooden_Man

[Pacman]

no i have not heard that but i guess it can help you dev. power since you are hitting a solid object and thta will help you check your structure

but from what i learned that is not the focus

[Yoshiyahu]

no i have not heard that but i guess it can help you dev. power since you are hitting a solid object and thta will help you check your structure

but from what i learned that is not the focus

Pacman: No the Mok Yan Jong develops more than one thing. Just as SLT develops Chi and shortpower. SLT also develops other things as well. The Mok Yan Jong sole purpose is not to develop power or condition your limbs. But that is apart of one the purposes.


Pacman said:
dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently


Pacman, Isn't it possible to practice combo moves with a partner? by one self(shadow boxing), or with a mirror. What added advantage does a dummy give. Why is the dummy wood instead of something soft that won't hurt your arms??? How do you condition your arms to take impact from a hard stylist like Hung Gar??? Do you believe the only purpose of the dummy is to practice combinations???? Why is there a form???? Is it only free style for the wooden dummy???? I thought the Bamboo dummy was solely for freestyle and the wooden dummy was for training power...Please share you view????

One should practice the Mok Yan Jong

Even Pace with a continous flow.

Fast with snappy strikes.

Slow with hard strikes

Soft with light force and slow with emphasize on proper structure, alignment and application.

Would you agree with this?

If you practice the Jong ten times a day utilizing these four applications wouldn't you say one would have a rounded skill increase?

Here is one source I found concerning Sum Nung Wing Chun:


After, the Muk Yan Jong is used, allowing a student to pretend they have an enemy present in training. With a classmate in chi sao, a student must be careful not to cause harm, but with a dummy more power is possible. This brings the techniques together, giving the practitioner flexibility.

http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-practitioners-leung-dai-chiu-teacher-of-wing-chun-kuen/

Also what else do YKS Sifus' and Practioners say about utlizing power concerning th Mok Yan Jong?


Please share your opinion???

ps. I am really enjoying this discussion.

[Tom Kagan]

If you find yourself wanting more than one kind of dummy to have around, you may instead want to consider finding smarter people with which to practice.

[bennyvt]

most moves are either seperate or at most two moves, normally a block and then attack. There are no combos in vt. Seperate moves done with flow but every one could be changed into something else. Might just be the wording but combos are stagnant sequences not flowing moves.

[Yoshiyahu]

most moves are either seperate or at most two moves, normally a block and then attack. There are no combos in vt. Seperate moves done with flow but every one could be changed into something else. Might just be the wording but combos are stagnant sequences not flowing moves.

Actuallly I have to strangely agree with you. When pacman was speaking I assumed flowing techniques automatically because he is a YKS practioner which centers around flow, softness, and redirection of force.

Bennyvt and Tom Kagan are you familiar with the Bamboo Dummy used in many mainland WC curriculm?

But as for Pacman I can merely speculate. How ever there are several Defend and simultaneous Attack combinations one can drill to make one accuracy and precision alot better. But also one should constantly strike the wooden man contionously with out breaks with continous flow of motion. But I get the idea of isolated drilling.

But please by all means Pacman share your view on combination drilling.

I for one think that combo practice can be beneficial. After all the Kuit Kuen says to drive down the middle and execute three moves at once. However with WC one does not premeditate his attack but feels for hits as he gains connection through a bridge. His sensitivity training it what leads him to contionously hit his opponents openings in a flowing matter.

[Pacman]

yes i do not mean combos like a rigid premediated combo attack. i mean being able to flow from one move to another in a continuous motion

you asked why not do them in the air? well you can, but its harder to visualize without the dummy and with the dummy you learn the feeling as you work with the arms

you also asked why its made of wood. it really doesnt have to be. back then they made it out of wood because that was the easiest material to aquire adn to work with. (no plastics or foams back then. the only other alternative would have been stone or metal)

[chusauli]

Within the seed of any motion in WCK, there are a myriad of changes, and that is why there are no fixed combos of any sort in WCK.

I was introduced to the Juk Jong by my sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, over 25 years ago. He showed me a sequence of moves like Dan Chi Sao, and later, when I studied under Hawkins, he was big on using spring based dummy arms which Ho Luen had made for him.

Like Tom said, it's better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong.

I always joked with my students, sand bag training, Jong training, and other bag training is for students you don't like...(or at least Chi Sao or want to have contact with)

As for the executing of 3 moves - it is more of understanding to use your feet (steps), torso and hands to arrive together (San Zhao yi Qi Dao/Sam Jiu Yat Chai Do) and comes from Yue Fei's martial essays...here's a copy of it from the Chen Tai Ji manuals in English:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenchangxingIWMA.html

"Important formula says: taking a step and entering (one) must advance body, (the movement is) real only if body and hands arrive together, in the method there is a formula about where to get it from, (once) you understand this principle, (you will realize) how miraculous it is."

That is the origin of 3 moves executing at the same time.

[Yoshiyahu]

Within the seed of any motion in WCK, there are a myriad of changes, and that is why there are no fixed combos of any sort in WCK.

I was introduced to the Juk Jong by my sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, over 25 years ago. He showed me a sequence of moves like Dan Chi Sao, and later, when I studied under Hawkins, he was big on using spring based dummy arms which Ho Luen had made for him.

Like Tom said, it's better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong.

I always joked with my students, sand bag training, Jong training, and other bag training is for students you don't like...(or at least Chi Sao or want to have contact with)

As for the executing of 3 moves - it is more of understanding to use your feet (steps), torso and hands to arrive together (San Zhao yi Qi Dao/Sam Jiu Yat Chai Do) and comes from Yue Fei's martial essays...here's a copy of it from the Chen Tai Ji manuals in English:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenchangxingIWMA.html

"Important formula says: taking a step and entering (one) must advance body, (the movement is) real only if body and hands arrive together, in the method there is a formula about where to get it from, (once) you understand this principle, (you will realize) how miraculous it is."

That is the origin of 3 moves executing at the same time.




Excellent response Robert and Pacman...

So whats the benefit of Juk Jong?

How is the difference in benefits with a Mok Yan Jong in contrast to a Juk Jong???

Robert do you have any pictures or videos of a Juk Jong????

[couch]

If you find yourself wanting more than one kind of dummy to have around, you may instead want to consider finding smarter people with which to practice.

Wow, Tom. I'm impressed. You've made a joke, albeit a dry-humour kind. Still lurking around, I see. Cheers! ;)

[Pacman]

Like Tom said, it's better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong.

its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult

in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said "ok now use it"...you would never be able to learn how to apply it

[Yoshiyahu]

its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult

in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said "ok now use it"...you would never be able to learn how to apply it

Wow...thats terrifying...I can really see that approach. Thats a great way to prove your point. I think the dummy gives a tactile way of drilling a technique over and over again. It gives some resistance rather than drilling mere air. An of course the dummy aides increasing muscle memory through tactile stimulation.

But this is my opinion albeit a good one. What do you think Chausli?

[chusauli]

its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult

in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said "ok now use it"...you would never be able to learn how to apply it

That's a bit ASS backwards. The reason my students and grandstudents enter the ring/cage is because from day one, I teach them to accept things like takedowns, jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, Thai roundhouse kicks and the like against them and what people on the street will be throwing at them. Few people will attack with Karate punches or WCK punches shown in many classes.

Using a Juk Jong will not help you against those tools - Only training against them will help you.

[chusauli]

Excellent response Robert and Pacman...

So whats the benefit of Juk Jong?

How is the difference in benefits with a Mok Yan Jong in contrast to a Juk Jong???

Robert do you have any pictures or videos of a Juk Jong????

A Juk Jong can be made in the pattern of a 5 when you roll a dice. I have no pictures for you. 5 spring arms on a flat board and instant Juk Jong...go see the youtube video again.

Again, I think the Juk Jong is only useful if you live in Communist China, there is a martial arts ban, and have to train solo/secret. Or you take your big sweaty, smelly student and tell him to practice with that the next hour or until class is over...and advise him of Irish Spring and the benefits of other deodorant soaps.

Both Muk Yan Jong and Juk Jong are used solo - Muk Yan Jong is more important of the two. IN MYJ, you really step in and hear the sound - 1 sound for three moves is teaching you alignment and timing. Example - Tan Sao/Jing Jeung, Sam Gwok Ma.

[Pacman]

That's a bit ASS backwards. The reason my students and grandstudents enter the ring/cage is because from day one, I teach them to accept things like takedowns, jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, Thai roundhouse kicks and the like against them and what people on the street will be throwing at them. Few people will attack with Karate punches or WCK punches shown in many classes.

Using a Juk Jong will not help you against those tools - Only training against them will help you.

i dont know why you are so rude, but oh well. in any case your comments are confusing.

i never said anything about not accepting any other type of attack. its just that you need to train in stages. if you jump to the final stage, application in a live and stressful pressure situation, without developing proper forma and coordination etc. you will not fully understand the principles behind the 12 san sik or the wooden dummy or whatever you are trying to learn and you will not be able to apply it skillfully

then you will think you understand WC, but in reality you only understand it from a superficial level. you wont fully understand the yiu dim because you were never able to apply it properly. then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a "im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren't they?" philosophy

in short, you will end up like terrence!

and regarding your students in the ring. kudos to any of them who have any success but to say they are fighting with wing chun is beyond a stretch.

they are not using wing chun. i am not critiquing their heart or hard work or skill in any way, but sorry...'protecting the center' and having proper 'structure' are not unique to WC and not enough to qualify anyone as fighting with wing chun.

if that were the case, most pro boxers would qualify as wing chun fighters

[Tom Kagan]

... Tom Kagan are you familiar with the Bamboo Dummy used in many mainland WC curriculm?

Yes.

And?

[CFT]

then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a "im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren't they?" philosophyTo have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn't make it inferior.

You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.

The only reason why old "Tai Chi masters" "win" against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.

[bennyvt]

no never used it. Totally agree with the combos, wording makes a big difference. I was taught you can practice anything on the dummy. From simple bong sao practice from slt to add lib spontaninus moves- two man drills etc. Only limited by your imagination. But a solid foundation of techniques should be practiced before just making it up as it may not be the best response for that attack.

[Pacman]

To have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn't make it inferior.

You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.

The only reason why old "Tai Chi masters" "win" against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.

never said one was superior than the other. simply pointed out the differences in emphasis


You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.

i am completely aware of this

[CFT]

never said one was superior than the other. simply pointed out the differences in emphasis.Who says? If you fight you'd need all of those, whether you train Muay Thai or Wing Chun.

There is an old saying:

"Yat daam, yee lik, saam kung fu"

"First courage, second strength, third skill".

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes.

And?

What benefits does one gain from practicing the Juk Jong???

Do you feel the Juk Jong is a piece of equipment left out of most WC systems here in America???


To have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn't make it inferior.

You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.

The only reason why old "Tai Chi masters" "win" against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.

What would happen if if those old Tai Chi Masters spent a life time fighting younger resisting opponents. What would happen if those same Tai Chi masters with years of fighting experience were to fight a younger well condition and unskilled fighter?

[CFT]

What would happen if if those old Tai Chi Masters spent a life time fighting younger resisting opponents.They don't though.


What would happen if those same Tai Chi masters with years of fighting experience were to fight a younger well condition and unskilled fighter?It depends on the age and fitness of the Tai Chi "master" and whether the skills gap can bridge the difference in age, fitness and conditioning.

[Yoshiyahu]

They don't though.

CFT, Thank you very much for your expedient response.

It depends on the age and fitness of the Tai Chi "master" and whether the skills gap can bridge the difference in age, fitness and conditioning.

What I am saying is their skill level, knowledge and cunningness can sometimes defeat a less skilled, more conditioned younger opponent. Sometimes as you get older you acquire what I have heard old man strength. Its different than the strenght of youth.


Also not all Internal/ Tai chi practioners do tai chi for mere health. Especially direct descendants. Although they do not showcase or broadcast their fighting skills. Some Tai Chi fighters can really use it in combat effectively against a resisting opponent. Especially those who live in areas where they have been tried and tested by hooligans and hoodlums. At any rate I guess the answer to this quarry would be in ones perspective based off of pass experiences.


chusauli What benefits does one gain from the Juk Jong?

[chusauli]

i dont know why you are so rude, but oh well. in any case your comments are confusing.

i never said anything about not accepting any other type of attack. its just that you need to train in stages. if you jump to the final stage, application in a live and stressful pressure situation, without developing proper forma and coordination etc. you will not fully understand the principles behind the 12 san sik or the wooden dummy or whatever you are trying to learn and you will not be able to apply it skillfully

then you will think you understand WC, but in reality you only understand it from a superficial level. you wont fully understand the yiu dim because you were never able to apply it properly. then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a "im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren't they?" philosophy

in short, you will end up like terrence!

and regarding your students in the ring. kudos to any of them who have any success but to say they are fighting with wing chun is beyond a stretch.

they are not using wing chun. i am not critiquing their heart or hard work or skill in any way, but sorry...'protecting the center' and having proper 'structure' are not unique to WC and not enough to qualify anyone as fighting with wing chun.

if that were the case, most pro boxers would qualify as wing chun fighters


Not rude, just sharing my opinion. You're reading it as rude.

To say against Mike Tyson is silly; and to ramp it up from inanimate objects to living beings is silly.

Let's not forget striking is the the most efficient way to protect the center. Striking with authority requires proper alignment. Is the stance and power from WCK or elsewhere? IN WCK, the body is the hammer, the fist the nail.

In YKS WCK, we say "Fang Lut Jik Chung", in YM WCK, we say "Lut Sao Jik Chung" - WCK not being attached or in contact - one must rush in - this is the essence of WCK at a distance - this way is to build a bridge. How would you purport to get in when the rules have you start out in a distance?

If you know about fighting, all actions build a bridge. An opponent not cooperating with you will not want you to stick to him, and in MMA, you risk then grappling. What do you do?

All the Jok Jong training will not help you.

[chusauli]

chusauli What benefits does one gain from the Juk Jong?

As a sifu, you get rid of the smelly, dumb student you don't want to Chi Sao with for an hour by telling him, "practice 2000 reps of punching on the sand bag and play Dan Chi Sao on the Juk Jong for the next 20 minutes."

That is the benefit of the Juk Jong.

[Tom Kagan]

What benefits does one gain from practicing the Juk Jong???

Do you feel the Juk Jong is a piece of equipment left out of most WC systems here in America???

Since you read my first post in this thread but do not understand and choose to ask these questions of me, obviously I'm not going to spend time repeating myself.

"Argue with a dummy and you now have two dummies." -- author unknown.

[JPinAZ]

As a sifu, you get rid of the smelly, dumb student you don't want to Chi Sao with for an hour by telling him, "practice 2000 reps of punching on the sand bag and play Dan Chi Sao on the Juk Jong for the next 20 minutes."

That is the benefit of the Juk Jong.

Ahh, I think I finally I get it!! But, I didn't know Terrence was smelly too :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Since you read my first post in this thread but do not understand and choose to ask these questions of me, obviously I'm not going to spend time repeating myself.

"Argue with a dummy and you now have two dummies." -- author unknown.

Please answer my question my WC brother

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, ---author Kefa Shimon

[Tom Kagan]

Please answer my question my WC brother


I did. I'm not going to repeat an answer you choose to not understand. Reread my first post and answer your own question.

[Pacman]

Not rude, just sharing my opinion. You're reading it as rude.

ok my bad. your comments are ASStarded, and likewise not being rude just my opinion.


To say against Mike Tyson is silly; and to ramp it up from inanimate objects to living beings is silly.

if ramping up from learning to coordinate ones body by doing movements in the air and against a wooden dummy to live beings is silly, then isnt ramping up from nothing to live beings as you suggested even worse?



...All the Jok Jong training will not help you.

if you read what i wrote i never said jok jong should be all you train. i just said that it can be useful in some aspects of training.

[chusauli]

Pacman,

I am curious, help me understand what great benefits you get from a Juk Jong that you don't get better from training with a human being?

What are the "useful in some aspects of training" you speak of?

Anything would perhaps change the way I look at the usefulness of this device...

[Sihing73]

Pacman,

I am curious, help me understand what great benefits you get from a Juk Jong that you don't get better from training with a human being?

What are the "useful in some aspects of training" you speak of?

Anything would perhaps change the way I look at the usefulness of this device...

Hello Robert,

From your response it would seem that you do not think much of the Dummy Form or it's usefullness. I am curious as to why it would have been part of the system if it is of no value? Did those before us just make it up to pass the time with no real purpose? Do you not have the dummy form in your curriculum and do you not teach it? If so, then it must have some purpose or why bother? Not a slight but an observation.

From my perspective the usefullness of the dummy is simple;

It is to be used to refine ones skills when no partner is available. The shape of the dummy arms and the square holes for the arms as well as the play in the support slats all serve a valuable purpose. The holes allow one to drill the proper energy and body mechanics when performing a technique. For example if one applies a Bong Sau the arm will be directed to the opposite corner, the dummy body will turn and also play on the support slats. The practicianer can evaluate their technique, or a senior can do so, by the reaction of the dummy to the technique applied.

The dummy is not to be beaten on nor is it to develope, imho, power. It is rather to help refine ones body structure by providing the feedback and also compliments ones footwork and stance as well.

A little hard to explain properly in this medium but I think you may get the idea.

The dummy is simply another tool, not the end all be all but another piece of the pie. The purpose, as I stated and this is simply my opinion, is to compliment ones training mostly when no partner is available.

You know they say that imitation is the highest compliment and many systems utilize a dummy of one type or another. Some arts now drill edged weapons against dummies as well. For something with little or no purpose it sure seems to get around..................

[chusauli]

I think the Muk Yan Jong is indeed a great tool, but I think the Juk Jong to be of little value.

I do teach several Muk Yan Jong sets, and it is a great tool for the development of structure and for solo training.

As for the Juk/Jook Jong, I think it is a lame device.

I hope you are all clear this topic is on the Juk or Jook Jong (Bamboo Dummy).

[sanjuro_ronin]

On a side note and perhaps to echo Roberts view on the "bambo dummy", I have trained with dummys that have spring arms and fleaxable arms and they suck !
In theory it makes sense because it adds a certain "aliveness" to the training, in reality, unless you use some serious springs that are VERY h ard to bend and come back at you very fast and hard, it becomes an inferior training aparatus to the standard fixed arm wooden dummy.
The only one I liked was one in which the arms were hard and ridged but had springs attached to the back that allowed you to pull the arm up or down (only up or down) and the spring was pretty taught and snapped back nice and fast, if you weren't careful, you would eat it.

[Yoshiyahu]

I did. I'm not going to repeat an answer you choose to not understand. Reread my first post and answer your own question.

Please share your views...


This video is off the subject but I like it check it out tell me what you think?

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=mook+yan+jong+sum+fat+site%3Agoogle.com#q=wooden +dummy+site:google.com&hl=en&emb=0&start=0

[chusauli]

On a side note and perhaps to echo Roberts view on the "bambo dummy", I have trained with dummys that have spring arms and fleaxable arms and they suck !
In theory it makes sense because it adds a certain "aliveness" to the training, in reality, unless you use some serious springs that are VERY h ard to bend and come back at you very fast and hard, it becomes an inferior training aparatus to the standard fixed arm wooden dummy.
The only one I liked was one in which the arms were hard and ridged but had springs attached to the back that allowed you to pull the arm up or down (only up or down) and the spring was pretty taught and snapped back nice and fast, if you weren't careful, you would eat it.


I'll say that some individuals who have used the spring loaded arms have lost quite a few teeth and received injury to their chin and mouth area. There is a reason it isn't on the market anymore: Product liability!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll say that some individuals who have used the spring loaded arms have lost quite a few teeth and received injury to their chin and mouth area. There is a reason it isn't on the market anymore: Product liability!

Those must have been good springs cause the ones I have used lack some serious chi !!
LOL !
Most of them are too light and wimpy, you need ones that are basically very stiff and require a good deal of effort to "bend".

[chusauli]

If one uses the body, and not the arm and shoulder strength, they're all easy to bend!

[sanjuro_ronin]

If one uses the body, and not the arm and shoulder strength, they're all easy to bend!

LOL, good point !
But I am sure you have seen and felt some of those "wimpy" ones, they do more harm than good.

[Tom Kagan]

Please share your views...

I already have: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=957080&postcount=14

I do not have much use to talk over the internet to a person who is repeating questions as if they were a zoetic MukYanJong. So, unless you have some smarter additional questions to provoke a conversation I find interesting enough to give an answer beyond my first post in this thread, consider this my last post on the subject.



This video is off the subject but I like it check it out tell me what you think?

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=mook+yan+jong+sum+fat+site%3Agoogle.com#q=wooden +dummy+site:google.com&hl=en&emb=0&start=0

I think you are looking for something which cannot be found on the internet. What that is, exactly, isn't something of which I know or with which I can help you.

[Yoshiyahu]

I already have: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=957080&postcount=14

I do not have much use to talk over the internet to a person who is repeating questions as if they were a zoetic MukYanJong. So, unless you have some smarter additional questions to provoke a conversation I find interesting enough to give an answer beyond my first post in this thread, consider this my last post on the subject.




I think you are looking for something which cannot be found on the internet. What that is, exactly, isn't something of which I know or with which I can help you.

Okay thank you for your post. Please feel free to offer some useful information soon...

[Yoshiyahu]

http://users.softpress.com/oxfordwingchun/Pictures/Resources/item8a1.gif


http://users.softpress.com/oxfordwingchun/Pictures/Resources/item7a1.gif


Nice Videos:


http://www.indiawingchun.com/images/v3.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=Pjs-roWT1zw




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oFp0lksDlc



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo922dJmFKE