Resolving the forms "issue"

[MightyB]

I still haven't resolved it for myself.

As a traditionalist I say "who am I to change the system?" since I'm nowhere close to being a sifu.

Pragmatically I don't find a lot of use for a lot of them other than for showing off and feeling cool.

Personally- sometimes I like doing them, sometimes I think they're kind'a g@y.

Right now I think It would be cool to pull off a b!tch'n Siu Fu Yin form and I'll probably work on it tonight.

But I know that next week- I'll probably work on my groundwork and throwing and work out a lot and not give a 2nd thought to doing forms
---

See what I mean- I can't resolve the issue. :confused:

[Lucas]

personally, i view forms as a tool. just like my weight bench or heavy bag. just a different type of tool.

example: there are quite a few isolated exersizes I can do that would be beneficial to maintaining and increasing balance capabilities. Personally, I like getting some of my balance training in by doing forms. that way, im not bored by just doing solo balance drills, DULL, and i also am working on cardio, coordination, structure, technique, etc.

im of the opinion that forms are a tool, a unique tool to be sure, but a tool nonthe less. i think no less of form work than i do of weight training. it just happens to be a tool i personally know the value of and put to use when i want that value at that particular time.

[diego]

I still haven't resolved it for myself.

As a traditionalist I say "who am I to change the system?" since I'm nowhere close to being a sifu.

Pragmatically I don't find a lot of use for a lot of them other than for showing off and feeling cool.

Personally- sometimes I like doing them, sometimes I think they're kind'a g@y.

Right now I think It would be cool to pull off a b!tch'n Siu Fu Yin form and I'll probably work on it tonight.

But I know that next week- I'll probably work on my groundwork and throwing and work out a lot and not give a 2nd thought to doing forms
---

See what I mean- I can't resolve the issue. :confused:

stop looking at your training diary, lol you have a "DIARY":( and do your form when you are not sparring...uno work your posture while watching tv, and then break your posture when you play with your friends.

[Lucas]

oh and also, no one should fool themselves, forms are a big section of where the art comes from in kungfu.

yes, regardless of what anyone thinks, there is a direct relation to forms and dancing. its that quality of movement, art, and technique blended into one continuous drill that has its own level of merit.

[bawang]

oh and also, no one should fool themselves, forms are a big section of where the art comes from in kungfu.

yes, regardless of what anyone thinks, there is a direct relation to forms and dancing. its that quality of movement, art, and technique blended into one continuous drill that has its own level of merit.

hi

no lol

[TenTigers]

once again, Bawang's diamond sword of truth cust through the mists of delusion.

[SPJ]

to me, long forms are like a menu in a restaurant.

we may not eat all the food on the menu.

so we order some from the menu and make a meal.

meaning we pick some postures ONLY from the long forms.

we take a few and practice on them, work on the apps on dummy, bag, with partner etc.

for example, there a form of 8 big basic palms from Ba Gua.

I only work on one palm at a time. I practice just Lion catching the ball (one posture with many apps) for a whole month.

--

new students coming to us always ask to see long forms. we all laugh.

a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

learning and practicing one move at a time, one posture at a time.

--

:)

[Lucas]

its the shamanistic aspect of the form. similar to dancing you are imbodying the spirit of the animal. where as in a dance you do the same thing, depending on the dance, think more of a tribal type of dance. its more than mere movement. its like a fusion of spirit.

take for instance any tiger style. when you move, you arent merely doing the movements and the techniques, you are a tiger. feirce of eye, strength of heart, you may even growl. you strive to take on the aspect of the tiger, the relentlessness of attack, the agressiveness of retreat, etc.

many sequences of form is more than mere movement and technique. you become the form. its like another skin.

[TenTigers]

you don't need the form to do that. You can do it with individual Tiger techniques.

[Lucas]

of course you can. hell i can do it without any techniques. but it is AN aspect that can be compiled with form training. it was my elaboration of correlation to the artistic aspect of forms being similar to dancing. dancing is the only word i could think of, thats why i express to think more along the lines of tribal dance.

of course its a scale, you can surely do a form with absolutley no art. or it can be mainly just art.

but there is a connection between art and cma forms, i believe thats a strong portion of the artistic connection.

its the personal expression through movement and spirit.

[bawang]

the artistic part of kung fu is not in the forms
its artistic part and beauty is in the brutality and cruelty
form is when some guy needs money so he "performs" all the techniques he learned in a flowery and harmless manner to villagers for money
the 1800s are over

[Lucas]

im pretty sure thats a personal perspective, while i agree with you, personally there is more than just that in regards to the artistic aspect.

sure the beauty and flow of combat, prevelant in any confrontation, is there, but there is no denying the shamanistic development in cma

[bawang]

hi
what do u mean by "shamnisitc" ??

in my opinion the focus on the artistic part is why kung fu is a complete joke today

performing forms was a very socially low activity like begging

[Lucas]

hi
what do u mean by "shamnisitc" ??


'Shamanism comprises a range of traditional beliefs and practices concerned with communication with the spirit world'

'There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Shamans are intermediaries between the human and spirit worlds'

in regards to CMA, its the connection between the animals and our development of martial arts based off of them. again its one of those things that has such a wide range of variation. most practitioners probably dont try to embody any spirit when they practice.

a good example is when you watch a shaolin monk do any animal form, he has that animals spirit.

[Lucas]

i fully understand that. personally, my kungfu generally contains little art, the time i get to train i usually practice techniques on my bag or a partner, lift weights, or other types of conditioning. usually when i do art, its by drawing.

except when i practice weapons, i can tend to get more influential there.

[Lucas]

hard to express on internet, but look at it like this.

when you see a kungfu guy acting like a tiger, does he really ahve the spirit of the tiger, or is he only acting?

[Scott R. Brown]

I like some forms and dis-like others. To me forms develop grace, coordination, and depending upon how on performs it, aerobic capacity. They can be similar to dance and there is nothing wrong with that. Soft forms and hard forms both have benefit according to ones goals.

If one is training for reasons other than self-defense alone, they have benefits.

If one was only interested in learning to defend their self, their time would be more efficiently spent learning to shoot a gun properly. It is more effective, it is easier to get good and take less training time!

Also social skills in order to avoid dangerous conflicts are a greater advantage then physically fighting in may circumstances.

[Lucas]

I like some forms and dis-like others. To me forms develop grace, coordination, and depending upon how on performs it, aerobic capacity. They can be similar to dance and there is nothing wrong with that. Soft forms and hard forms both have benefit according to ones goals.

If one is training for reasons other than self-defense alone, they have benefits.

If one was only interested in learning to defend their self, their time would be more efficiently spent learning to shoot a gun properly. It is more effective, it is easier to get good and take less training time!

Also social skills in order to avoid dangerous conflicts are a greater advantage then physically fighting in may circumstances.

thats a great sum up'in

to me its always been a full spectrum, from useless fairy dancing, to solid hardcore technique drills, and everything in between.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, technically speaking...even a two move drill is a form. With a partner it is even better. Call it performing techniques or call it performing a two man form. One still improves self-defense performance when one practices prearranged actions.

[Lucas]

Well, technically speaking...even a two move drill is a form. With a partner it is even better. Call it performing techniques or call it performing a two man form. One still improves self-defense performance when one practices prearranged actions.

how dare you be technical :mad:

[Scott R. Brown]

how dare you be technical :mad:

LOL!!.....Ummmmm....let's call it a minor lapse in consciousness!

[bawang]

If one was only interested in learning to defend their self, their time would be more efficiently spent learning to shoot a gun properly. It is more effective, it is easier to get good and take less training time!



the reason to focus on real fight in kung fu isnt about defending yourself, its about keeping a real chinese tradition and culture because real kung fu was about fighting. its about being true to yourself and not dedicating years of your life on a lie

the problem is most of us were exposed to kung fu from movies. once you find out thats all fake and real kung fu training and fighting is diffrent sometimes its hard to accept and change

[SPJ]

if you are summoning the spirits or calling the cloud to rain--

then it is a ritual, or ceremonies

either native american or taoist priest some 2500 years ago

yes, there will be some setups in the site

there will be chanting and some movements

--

the main thing is the sincerity of the summoner

--

it is said that every time you summon or communicate with the spirits, you would lose some your life in this world, your life span would be shortened.

--

so I was told when I was a little kid.

:eek:

[SPJ]

if you are summoning the spirits or calling the cloud to rain--

then it is a ritual, or ceremonies

either native american or taoist priest some 2500 years ago

yes, there will be some setups in the site

there will be chanting and some movements

--

the main thing is the sincerity of the summoner

--

it is said that every time you summon or communicate with the spirits, you would lose some your life in this world, your life span would be shortened.

--

so I was told when I was a little kid.

:eek:

shamanism is not for everyone.

:eek:

[Lucas]

:eek:

is that why i feel so old?

:eek:

[bawang]

performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the "spiritual" part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt "fun" anymore

[Lee Chiang Po]

Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.

[Scott R. Brown]

the reason to focus on real fight in kung fu isnt about defending yourself, its about keeping a real chinese tradition and culture because real kung fu was about fighting. its about being true to yourself and not dedicating years of your life on a lie

the problem is most of us were exposed to kung fu from movies. once you find out thats all fake and real kung fu training and fighting is diffrent sometimes its hard to accept and change


performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the "spiritual" part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt "fun" anymore

Hi bawang,

Those are your personal opinions, and I respect them, however forms, as a "real" tradition and cultural expression", is not a necessary attitude to have in order to derive a benefit from performing them.

Many Japanese MA jutsu perform as few as two step forms that are strict technical expressions of real life actions.

Because they are an effective training method they are nearly universally practiced by those expecting to get into real fights.

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.

Very good advice!:)

To me there are two types of forms, less than real life actions, and true to life actions. Both serve a purpose, but one is more practical in terms of real life self-defense than the other!

[bawang]

Since you train your techniques one at a time, I am going to assume that the forms you speak of are pre-arranged fight forms of some sort. If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might. So in this case, rather than do that, why not just make up your own forms so that you can do one technique and let it lead into another and another and another. This is the way the Wing Chun forms work. You are not actually pretending to be fighting, but simply practicing your technique and developing accuracy and power. Of course Wing Chun is limited somewhat as to techniques, but each can be applied to a good many different situations. I would guess that in this case it would work as well for other forms of gung fu. Maybe.

i dont know any forms

If this is true, I cannot see where it would be all that beneficial since you will never have a fight that starts or ends like the form might.
in northern kung fu all the movements of the forms are exxagerated and done wrong on purpose
if you perform the forms like you actualy do them in private, the farmers watching you have no idea wtf youre doing

[TenTigers]

True, the shamanistic element is prevelant in some forms. In some forms, the sun-da, or sun-gung is woven into the form itself, and by performing the form, you invoke your spirit.
It is even said that when you perform your form, you are spiritually connecting yourself to the past masters.
When performing the Kuan-dao, you are Kuan-Gung. Certain moves, tightening the helmet strap, stroking the beard, scoffing at the enemy, riding the horse, sharpening the blade, etc are not just mimicry, but ways to connect directly with the spirit of Kuan-Gung. You should have a feeling of majesty and power. This eventually can be invoked at will in times of combat.
Is there a difference between dim-heurng and chang-sun? For some, yes. For others, no.
-of course, that is if you actually believe in all that stuff....
what do I know? I'm just a gwailo who took some Gung-Fu lessons.

[Scott R. Brown]

i dont know any forms

Two movements performed in succession = a form.

[bawang]

i dont think thats the kind of form mightyb was talking about, i think he was talkinga bout the usual long performance taolu

[iron_leg_dave]

I had a teacher, that said that forms are an encyclopedia to be studied and contemplated. All of it is embedded.

I think of the forms in the sequences of a system as letters composing a language, that makes sense once you are able to start speaking it and will eventually form words, which, fluently and powerfully can heal or harm when properly applied.

I don't know if that carries enough resonance to make sense over the internet without any BL, but that is how I explain kung fu to people.

[Scott R. Brown]

I had a teacher, that said that forms are an encyclopedia to be studied and contemplated. All of it is embedded.

I think of the forms in the sequences of a system as letters composing a language, that makes sense once you are able to start speaking it and will eventually form words, which, fluently and powerfully can heal or harm when properly applied.

I don't know if that carries enough resonance to make sense over the internet without any BL, but that is how I explain kung fu to people.

That makes sense to to me.

[David Jamieson]

good forms worked properly will adjust and correct your structure.

You can't have power with a weak foundation. Forms help you to develop the right foundation for delivery of the techniques when you step into the next aspect of training.

[Ray Pina]

I still haven't resolved it for myself.

As a traditionalist I say "who am I to change the system?" since I'm nowhere close to being a sifu.


My impression is that you've been in the game long enough and have more real experience then a lot of sifu. They're your tools, do whatever the hell you want to do with them, right? Chances are you'll make something unique and custom made.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

When I don't have a training partner, I often shadow-kickbox. On good days, it flows just like a set form. Plus, if I shadow box with a certain intent, then the expression of that intent changes what the shadow boxing looks like, so I agree with the idea of shamanistic aspects being part of it. I find the difference between shadow-kickboxing and forms is that forms are set and progressive, usually with the more challenging concepts and techniques being expressed near the end of the form, whereas shadow-boxing is applying everything you know from the beginning.

The Qin Emperor used a form of rhythm and dance to unite his armies before a battle. They would do a drum dance - each soldier had an hourglass drum and two drumsticks. They would dance, leap, swing the drum around and drum in unison. Having the troops perform it together made for stronger bonds and loyalty, greater coordination, and higher individual performance. It wasn't a Martial arts form per se, but it worked very well, with the added benefit of striking fear into the enemy with the sound of the drums and possibly the sight of thousands of synchronized soldiers.

Even today, many armies perform group drills to enhance cohesion. Heck, most MA clubs do the same thing, "form" or "no form." Although the nature of combat has changed, I think that in a world where armies often camped within sight of one another before battle, using drill time to impress and frighten the enemy seems like a pretty good idea. Maybe a quick and easy way is to link a whole bunch of crazy moves together, then get everybody together before the battle and have them all do it at the same time - preferably with lots of shouting and drumming.

Oh, right, a point.... um, So when you do solo form, just play with it. Maybe do it really slow, for a "slo-mo-shadow-boxing" effect... or do it really fast for a "no time to think" effect... or just work on your attributes with it.

[KC Elbows]

Forms should have a lot of important notes about transitions in them. Just saying.

[Mr Punch]

My impression is that you've been in the game long enough and have more real experience then a lot of sifu. They're your tools, do whatever the hell you want to do with them, right? Chances are you'll make something unique and custom made.Excellent advice.


Forms should have a lot of important notes about transitions in them. Just saying.This too. You should write the notes on your arms, then when you put your arms out in a position from the forms you can read about the transitions.

[uki]

forms are expressions of ourselves... i am a freeformist - just let your body follow your intention... i always hear the petty arguments that forms are impractical to actual fighting, obviously this is nothing more than an extreme mindset. if anything, forms allow one to practice movement, which is especially helpful when engaging multiple attackers... yet for me, doing form amounts to a meditation where i can zone out and let myself go... in form, your only limitation is your mind.

reflecting on it... forms are usually only done by those with a spiritual mindset in regards to the martial arts. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

forms are expressions of ourselves...
exactly... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a9Fk-zYCk4&feature=channel_page)

[diego]

performing is for money and ego, therees nothing spiritual about it
in a traditional training forms is not used for training, u train the techniques one at a time
the "spiritual" part is from hard training after your endorphins wear off and your training isnt "fun" anymore

interesting what about the tongs with there secret forms...meaning if you demo this dance outside of the school you will be shot?...i know this street guy 22 years old he is a good fighter did judo and played hockey at a college level...he is street i know if he studied all of the advanced combo's in my system he would be powerful like a shaman...he is a powerful guy girls love him and guys want to party with him but he is ignorant he has no spiritual power and I would never show him how to do the postures properly he would get too strong and ****y prolly get himself shot. sounds hokey but there is something to CMA at a higher level...most practitioners may seem high but there is something there.:D

like buk sing choi li fut only has four sets orsomething but they won't show them to the public in full properly...

[uki]

they won't show them to the public in full properly...and you will never see one of the shaolin do a form in public... ever. :)

[Ray Pina]

Forms aren't bad but I think we're going a little too far with them.... there may be something there regarding the spiritually-minded martial artist and form.

I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling.... then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work.... sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.

[MasterKiller]

I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling.... then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work.... sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.

This .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Funakoshi once said, forms must be done perfectly, real fighting is a different matter.
Forms can serve a mirad of functions.
Do you need forms to fight? NO.
Do you need forms to do learn a MA ? NO.
Are forms a waste of time? NO.

You get out of forms what you put into them.

[hskwarrior]

like buk sing choi li fut only has four sets orsomething but they won't show them to the public in full properly...

buk sing isn't the only one's out there that WON'T.

[TenTigers]

Forms aren't bad but I think we're going a little too far with them.... there may be something there regarding the spiritually-minded martial artist and form.

I know after two hours of carrying team mates, hitting tires with the sledge hammer, pushing cars, pummel/throwing drills, sparring and free rolling.... then going cross town for two hours of shadowboxing, sparring and bag work.... sil lum tao just seems unnecessary.

I've said this before; forms that are designed to train developmental aspects are different than forms that are a textbook of the system's techniques, theories concepts, etc.
Siu Lim Tau is developmental. It teaches the beginner WCK person to develop alignment, structure, proper elbow position, and proper execution of movements required to learn the system.
For you Ray, it would certainly be unneccesary, as you are not a WCK practitioner. It wouldn't serve you.
Perhaps Ying Yi Kuen's (hsingyi) Five Elements would be a better choice, as it is something you have absorbed into your training and your structure more.

Someone like Alan Orr, Terrance, etc would practice SLT, even if they did that routine, as they practice MMA as well as their WCK and integrate them.

There is a reason why past Masters of styles that utilize developmental forms always say, " (whatever style) begins and ends with (their developmental form)"

i.e. Sanchin/saamjien, Siu Lim Tau, Ng Hang, Sam Bo Ging

[SPJ]

usually,

1. the beginner forms or foundation forms. yes that is what we practice daily or most of the time.

2. intermediate forms, variations and derivatives from 1.

3. advance forms, focusing on special power or technique, so they are not as broad base as 1.

4. indoor forms (secret) forms, some techniques reserved for indoor students only.

so only the lineage holders know about 4.

however 1 is open to all students.

:)

[SPJ]

usually, there are several ways to practice the same forms/moves;

1. xing jia to get the body shape/structure right and transition right.

you can practice as slowly as you want like drawing a bow or standing in postures.

2. jin jia, to get the balance of power issuing.

3. gong jia to get the spirits/shen

4. qi gong, to get the breathing right.

speed, power and accuracy/precision are all in 2.

:)

[MightyB]

After reading all of your posts and some personal insight- This is what's taking shape in my head:

Forms are a type of martial-folk dance. Yes- they are a type of dance. They help with balance, grace, and coordination issues (like all forms of dancing will do) but that's all they really do for the martial artist. They are better suited to the martial artist if they at least mimic the techniques that are used in fighting.

Take tai-chi as an example. Looking at it in "levels" -

forms are for beginners. They will be able to serve a function of strengthening the legs for low level stances (important as a defensive base against throwers) and training the practitioner how to move about in a deep stance.

Phase two for the beginner should be push hands - which are really about balance and coordination in that deep stance against a partner.

The next phase is push hands wrestling (looks like shuai chiao, Americans have no idea about this level). This is deep stance free style wrestling.

The final level is San Da.

Unfortunately- we have this idea that there are "secrets" contained in the forms that will somehow transmit ultimate power to us if we were just to learn that one more form.

The secret is in repeatable practice against live partners with various forms of resistance (look at my tai chi example). The more you can do that- the better you get.

[TenTigers]

in Taiji the forms also teach the movements between the movements-the transitions, which beginners cannot yet absorb. Being able to move from one position to another while maintaining your structure is difficult.
The difference-an all arts between low level and high level is "closing the gaps"-as my SPM teacher would say.
There are many gaps. Gaps in transition while maintaing structure, gaps in timing, gaps in reaction, gaps in positioning your body, etc.

[uki]

forms are for beginners.bah... and this is here is the beginners mindset. :)

[Skip J.]

......Take tai-chi as an example. Looking at it in "levels" -

forms are for beginners. They will be able to serve a function of strengthening the legs for low level stances (important as a defensive base against throwers) and training the practitioner how to move about in a deep stance.

Phase two for the beginner should be push hands - which are really about balance and coordination in that deep stance against a partner.
hmmmnnnn.... I tried a little push hands and got bounced all over the room..

I must still be a beginner I guess.

I think you young guys just have a whole different perspective than us who don't even start until we're old.... Besides, doing the form is a whole 'nuther animal.

When in class learning the form, then we're not doing the form....

But at home, when just doing the form; then there is that transport to a different place in your mind, and I don't know of a different way to get "there" from here without the form.

And frankly, anybody who can do the 108 and then progress on is not a beginner at anything. I just hope I make there while still in this world...

[MightyB]

in Taiji the forms also teach the movements between the movements-the transitions, which beginners cannot yet absorb. Being able to move from one position to another while maintaining your structure is difficult.
The difference-an all arts between low level and high level is "closing the gaps"-as my SPM teacher would say.
There are many gaps. Gaps in transition while maintaing structure, gaps in timing, gaps in reaction, gaps in positioning your body, etc.

Why is it that people think beginners can't absorb something that's derived from a form?

I'll use myself as an example. I started Kung Fu when I was 17 (previously I had wrestled and done some karate off and on). I was at my peak physical condition. I just finished winning the regional track meet as a middle distance runner. I was weight training everyday. And I was (and still am) naturally athletic. Using hindsight as a measure, there was no form that existed in any system that I couldn't learn and physically perform at that time including the highly physical stuff of modern wushu. Not only that- there wasn't a form that I couldn't have learnt and performed well. I was more than physically capable. Yet, using traditional methodology- the "advanced" stuff was reserved for those who've been in the system for a long time. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What would make sense is to teach the highly physical stuff to the people who actually have the capacity to pull it off (and who could pull it off well). Forms training can only teach you to perform the form well. There's no hidden secrets that will make you a master fighter contained in forms. Personally I've learned well over 30 (lost count and purposefully let myself forget a few) forms. Guess what- there's no secrets. You can only get good at fighting by drilling constantly with the moves against another person (both of you have to have the b@lls to get hit too). That's the only way.

So to me- why waste the opportunity of training somebody with youth and energy to do the things that require youth and energy to pull off because of some misguided belief in secret abilities that are contained in forms? There are no secrets.

[uki]

a good example is when you watch a shaolin monk do any animal form,how do you see the shaolin do a form unless you are a shaolin yourself?

he has that animals spirit.but thats impossible... your spirit cannot take on the aspects of another spirit. :p



performing forms was a very socially low activity like beggingso is juggling... if you'd take the stick out of your arse, you might begin to understand what is being conveyed here. you speak as if something that is low cannot possibly be of importance... i could run off into a rambling of how humble and powerful water is because of it being "low", but a man of your great understanding already knows exactly what i am talking about. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms were used and created for many reasons - development skills, catalog of techniques, solo training exercise and so forth, learning to fight from a form was never really one of the reason though, why?
Better, easier and quicker ways to learn how to fight than from forms.

[MasterKiller]

Forms were used and created for many reasons - development skills, catalog of techniques, solo training exercise and so forth, learning to fight from a form was never really one of the reason though, why?
Better, easier and quicker ways to learn how to fight than from forms.

People often overlook that forms training might just be endemic to clasical Chinese culture. Tests for advancement in government and military posts involved rote memorization of complete books, and were graded on the ability to regurgiate the information verbatim without any attempt to understand the material in any sort of context.

[TenTigers]

I don't think you understood my point. It is not about learning another form, or skillset. It is about understanding and nailing the details-in this case, I was referring to the transitional movements. Not different movements, but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.
Beginners seem to look at it like,"I'm here-in this stance doing this technique, then I step to here, and do this technique,etc."
It's the "Then I step and.." part, where the gaps occur.
The way a seasoned fighter can just slip a punch, where is brushes his head and misses by a C.H.
Or the timing of a counter strike that intercepts your attackers intent, rather than his strike. You counter the "p" not the "unch."
these have nothing to do with learning an "advanced" form.
You are correct. There are no secrets.
The secret is, (and not to sound mystical or "high falootin") can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists?
If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think you understood my point. It is not about learning another form, or skillset. It is about understanding and nailing the details-in this case, I was referring to the transitional movements. Not different movements, but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.
Beginners seem to look at it like,"I'm here-in this stance doing this technique, then I step to here, and do this technique,etc."
It's the "Then I step and.." part, where the gaps occur.
The way a seasoned fighter can just slip a punch, where is brushes his head and misses by a C.H.
Or the timing of a counter strike that intercepts your attackers intent, rather than his strike. You counter the "p" not the "unch."
these have nothing to do with learning an "advanced" form.
You are correct. There are no secrets.
The secret is, (and not to sound mystical or "high falootin") can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists?
If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.

This is where many "bunkai" ( applications) and "himitsu" ( Hidden hands) of karate come from.
Taking techniques from forms and trying to make them work and then seeing that its NOT the end technique but how one gets there, that is the kicker.
And because people do things differently (transitions) you can have a technique with mulltiple applications and then comes the "true" application" or the debates about whether it is a "grappling " application or a "striking" application or an "armed" application, etc, etc.

[MightyB]

It could be that I'm experiencing the Chicken or the Egg phenomena in art. Would I be able to do a tu sau to cut past an opponent's defense, would I use Du Sau Ti Sa Na Ding to punch somebody, would I be able to feel my way past an opponent's defense to off-balance them without the forms training or is it that I've gotten to a point where I can't remember not knowing how to do that stuff so now I'm at a point where forms/style have become irrelevant? Especially now since I know how to blend the mantis with the throwing and groundwork with Judo and no longer give a F*** about what position my foot happens to be in when I kick someone in the face or if my du sau was with the pinky or whole hand when I'm applying a straight arm crush after a particularly nasty uchi mata.

[uki]

but the place your body is in when you are in between one movement and another.

It's the "Then I step and.." part, where the gaps occur.the point of inflection.

can most people see it, or grasp it? Are they even aware that it exists? no... most people cannot...


If they are not, well, then it IS a secret,
and it will forever remain a mystery to them.secrets only last for so long. :D

[Lucas]

another aspect of this is that the subject matter itself is so variant and vast. its hard to nail down in simple text conversation.

from style to style, region to region, even within the same house, there are so many different types of forms. Every style uses them to one extent or another.

Some work a single techniques form, over and over and over in a patternized drill. some string several techniques together for a quick combination, practiced over and over and over as a patternized drill. some string 10-200 techniques together, for the exact same reason.

the more aspects put into a form, the more aspects that will be drilled when you are doing solo work.

for instance: some forms are strickly a 3 punch combination drill. some involve footwork, awareness drills, balance drills, etc.

the point being, that what ever material is within the form you are practicing, is the material that that particular form will teach/drill/reinforce/introduce/etc.

the reason seasoned practitioners will do forms that they have been doing for 20+ years? Repetative upkeep. you dont use it you lose it.

for some people, form work is one of the primary places they may recieve specific in line drill work for specific elements. balance/stability/structure/transition/etc......

for many chinese styles, the way to move is ingrained within the form. from standing to standing, every physical aspect besides direct resistance is often times displayed, trained, drilled, and expanded upon within the form.

just depends on what form your doing.

example, western boxers use drill form ALOT

what do you suppose a lot of pad work entails? correct execution, part of which is within the form of said technique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't like forms, why?
I like to hit stuff !
:p

[diego]

buk sing isn't the only one's out there that WON'T.

it took my stepdad ten years to show me bits of the method...like he scared kaido would come back from the grave like "THRILLER" and punch him in the head:)


for some reason Paulie Zink's name entered my mental screen...

[TenTigers]

I don't like forms, why?
I like to hit stuff !
:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYUikEmEkls&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky70E88tFrU&feature=related
;)

[Ray Pina]

The secret is in repeatable practice against live partners with various forms of resistance (look at my tai chi example). The more you can do that- the better you get.

Bingo!

......

[uki]

Bingo!i get plenty of resistance training bouncing my body parts of of objects at the block job: pushing wheelbarrows, banging my head on scaffolding, kicking my shin on a cinder block, stepping on a stone rake which causes it to fly up and smash me in the face if i don't block it(yes - it doesn't only happen in tom and jerry), jumping into the hole, jumping out of the hole... resistance training comes in a variety of ways, especially if one puts just a tiny amount of effort into making the best of every movement and aspect of the day. once again, i practice martial arts so that i do not have to fight. :)

that'd be an I on 27... :p

[MightyB]

When I practice forms (I see a lot of other people doing this), I have a tendency to practice the form in order to be able to perform the form better. I have things that I'm trying to do like expressing jing, making sure my hands and feet are where they should be, trying to be fluid, make no mistakes, move fast when I have to move fast, pause for emphasis, etc... the problem is that I'm practicing the form to make my performance better. Everyone I see does this- we practice the form so we can do it better. :confused:

[Drake]

Getting better at a form requires getting better at the techniques. Being better at the techniques means you are better at using them instinctively. Sparring isn't always effective, especially when it degenerates into a rock'em sock'em match. Inability to utilize techniques in a practical manner, derived from forms, makes sparring nothing more than a reinforcement session of bad habits under the guise of "real" training.

[Drake]

Stances are very important. We're talking about forms in general, yes? Or are we talking about crowd-pleasers only?

[TenTigers]

[Then there are the forms that could be considered more "performance oriented" ie: beng bu,


From most Mantis schools, they say that Bung Bo is the form that Wong Long created, when he created the Mantis style. Why would that be considered a performance set? Unless in your Mantis system it is different?

[MightyB]

Sorry Drake, my reply was meant for Mighty B.

I think throughout the thread, people have been steered away from the concept of the more basic forms. If you want to count all forms, then Hill Climbing stance with Reverse Punch is a form, and a very necessary one at that.

Actually- I think the single most important form in Mantis is probably one of it's newest and is only found in the LKY 7* line which is Sub Sa Lo. It's definitely not pretty. Basically it's a line drill. But after years of contemplation, IMO it's by far the single most important form in the whole system for people who actually want to study martial arts for the sole reason to learn self defense.

[Ray Pina]

i get plenty of resistance training bouncing my body parts of of objects at the block job: pushing wheelbarrows, banging my head on scaffolding, kicking my shin on a cinder block, stepping on a stone rake which causes it to fly up and smash me in the face if i don't block it(yes - it doesn't only happen in tom and jerry), jumping into the hole, jumping out of the hole... resistance training comes in a variety of ways, especially if one puts just a tiny amount of effort into making the best of every movement and aspect of the day. once again, i practice martial arts so that i do not have to fight. :)

that'd be an I on 27... :p



I agree with you. You can train mechanics and structure and timing and accuracy all day long by yourself, stepping over puddles to insure pushing angles, you name it. But only someone trying to punch you and or take you down can teach you certain lessons. Only being punched and taken down and having to continue can teach you certain lessons ... these are lessons one should address frequently if they want to be ready for fighting.

[MightyB]

using Mantis:

Solid Warm ups that incorporate all of the basic motions and techniques, solid workout that taxes my muscles throughout a wide range of motions. Always working on flexibility in the legs and hips and leg strength in low postures.

Sub Sa Lo as a self defense pattern.

for internal and to keep with the martial arts stereotype :) Some Zhan Zhong(sp?) standing meditation (basically I advocate standing in martial postures from the system similar to how tai chi-ers will stand in postures like single whip- promotes meditative state and is a form of isometric exercise)

2 person drilling is mandatory and has to be done whenever possible. To me, this is the "meat" of the system is. (I now do a blended version of kung-fu and Judo that I've nicknamed" kung-fudo"-- better than "JuFu" :p ) Everything I do is very simple. The simpler the better. I work on the basis of trying to create a high percentage for successful application. Doesn't mean I throw it out if it's difficult, just means that it has to be so basic that it can be done spontaneously under stress against a bigger and meaner person with a high chance of success. Preferably I like to work out with someone who's roughing me up a bit with grabs, clinches, locking, throwing, and wrestling.

As far as forms-- I do have my favorites that I try to practice regularly at home. I do try to go through as many as I can remember once every couple of months. But that's only to keep 'em there.

Again- as an ideal, after Sub Sa Lo - I really just practice a couple of really pretties like Siu Fu Yin, Tong Long Chit Don, and the first Jot Yu. I do have a fondness for Sup Ah Sou and Chop Choy - So I practice those a lot. I don't do too many weapons, just Lok hop Darn Dao, Lok hop sern Dao, and Goon Le Guan.

That's how I do it.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This may have been stated already, but I feel compelled to state it again:D

However you want to say it, philosophize about it, or **** and moan about it, forms are an antiquated training method. Regardless of the fact that they were used to categorize movements, many people still subscribe to the falsehood that forms equal fighting. I do not believe forms are completely useless. There are several older martial artists who are unable to spar hard or even do bag work due to chronic illnesses that can still do forms, and get a decent work out from them. This still does not equate to fighting skill, but most people at that stage do not care about fighting skill anymore, it is more for self preservation through the exercise benefits. That being said, the question needs to be asked by purists to themselves. What is true Kung Fu, practicing an antiquated exercise that does not produce fighting capabilities, or focusing on basics and resistance training which does. I also do not believe that forms are what makes a style what it is. If anything, forms make a style what it is not. Boxing has never used forms and was and still is an effective martial art. The reason is because all the focus in boxing is on resistance training and combat. Nothing else matters and really, nothing else should. I do not do forms anymore because my time is better spent doing training that benefits my fighting skills. In the end that is what matters the most.

[MightyB]

Anyway- all businesses have a mission statement. It's basically a way to encapsulate the entirety of the business's philosophy and reason for existence into one or two brief - descriptive sentences.

Those darn Gracies have a mission statement which basically states that the whole reason for the existence of their martial art can be summarized with the fact that a smaller and weaker person studying GJJ can defeat a larger and stronger opponent.

I'm not saying this as a fanboy or BJJ nutrider or anything- I'm saying this because they stated a purpose and dedicated their whole effort into making that purpose a reality, and for the most part, they did make it happen.

Do we have a mission statement in TCMA?

[MasterKiller]

Do we have a mission statement in TCMA?
Crush your enemies.
See them driven before you.
Hear the lamentations of their women.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Make your female enemies pole dance for you.
See them drive you like you have never been driven !!
Fear the lactations of women.

Dude !!!!:eek:

[Ray Pina]

Had a great run last night where I incorporated shadowboxing, pivots, back peddling, kicks, takedowns and shoots. Worked cordio and mechanical combos all while under duress < -------- better than forms. Though not as many seasoning or hardening benefits as fighting. One good fight brings home so many things that work for you as well as areas you have to ramp up. And if you fight, you'll ramp them up quick fast.

This is why fighters improve: they have to.

This is why so many form guys can't fight: they don't have to.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Crush your enemies.
See them driven before you.
Hear the lamentations of their women.


That is good!!

[uki]

Crush your enemies.
See them driven before you.
Hear the lamentations of their women.another classic example of the male chauvinistic attitude that plagues the hordes of simple men.

[IronWeasel]

another classic example of the male chauvinistic attitude that plagues the hordes of simple men.



I do forms.

You will be crushed.

Your woman will lament.

[Lucas]

you forgot to see him driven before you

[MasterKiller]

you forgot to see him driven before you

God forbid if there is a headwind!

[Drake]

another classic example of the male chauvinistic attitude that plagues the hordes of simple men.


And you are utterly powerless to do anything about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speaking of forms:

[Drake]

Speaking of forms:

This is why you'll always be my favorite person here.

[SIFU RON]

my favorite style ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is why you'll always be my favorite person here.

Well, for such kind words one must act accordingly.

[Drake]

Well, for such kind words one must act accordingly.


Some like the front... some like the back. :D

[uki]

And you are utterly powerless to do anything about it.bringing it to light is having done enough. :)

[Drake]

bringing it to light is having done enough. :)

Sanjuro and I are having an important discussion. Please return to your backyard self-injury "training".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some like the front... some like the back. :D

Anyone who truly appreciates good form knows that the secret is in the core, the hips and the back: