how much force should you use

[Shadow Skill]

Remember the society we live in. We're not fighting off people who genuinely want to murder us and our family, most of the time we fight. Usually its people who **** us off or we **** them off. Is it worth severely injuring them? What about the legal consequences? The medical bills and financial hardship they could incur?

Yeah, chances are they probably should've thought of that before they got into a fight with you. But you should understand where your opponent is coming from, as well. We're all inconsiderate *******s at one time or another, the only difference is those inconsiderate *******s we mess up, probably don't have the training we do. And as such, we have a responsibility to it as well.

I was reading the timming and striking thread and this made me think. when in a fight how bad do you want to mess someone up should you grapple them and choke them out or should you just let your hands fly.
personaly I'm more of a fan of striking. plus everytime I think of choking someone out I get reminded of my brother who got charged w/ strangulation when someone pulled a gun on him.. whole nether story
do you even have time to consider the options, or does pure reaction and repetitive traing kick in

[iron_leg_dave]

I was reading the timming and striking thread and this made me think. when in a fight how bad do you want to mess someone up should you grapple them and choke them out or should you just let your hands fly.
personaly I'm more of a fan of striking. plus everytime I think of choking someone out I get reminded of my brother who got charged w/ strangulation when someone pulled a gun on him.. whole nether story
do you even have time to consider the options, or does pure reaction and repetitive traing kick in


I train striking everyday. Very seldom do I grapple at all anymore.

I have been in a handful of confrontations as an adult, usually with drugs and/or alcohol involved and they always came down to either chin na or closing the gap quickly and choking to submission except one, but I outweighed him and caught him while he was moving and drove him into a wall. It is usually my voice that ends it and I will reason with someone once they have accepted defeat.

I also was almost beaten once and ended up ending it with a carefully placed punch to the back directly over the heart, which caused him to go limp for a few seconds and then sit up and try to catch his breath before leaving and not coming back.

I use striking as a supplemental tool for real life grappling instead of vice versa, and years of kung fu has yet to change that reality for me. Your instinct is to control, and there is more control once contact is made, then in any kind of standoff.

[iron_leg_dave]

Also, I do longfist, but have never actually used a kick in a real fight as an adult outside of practicing with pads. I've never even thought about kicking in a real fight since I was a child and our fights were full of them... But that was the 80's.:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

According to most laws...you are allowed to use just the same amount of force as is used against you. Unfortunately the advantage then goes to your attacker because you cannot legally end a confrontation by escalating to a higher level of attack than the one used against you.

So for example, if someone pushes you and you break his jaw, legally you are in the wrong and may be held criminally and civilly liable. You may use great bodily injury only when it is attempted against you, but once the opponent submits or becomes unable to defend their self you must stop your attack.

It doesn't seem fair I know, but that is the law in most places!

[Lee Chiang Po]

I wish I could say that I have never initiated a fight, but I have. When I was in my prime I took money to do such things. However, no matter if you do that or if you are strictly self defense, you have to use your head. There is seldom going to be a situation that allows you to simply bust someone up. These times do exist I suppose, but not under most circumstances. You should never kick anyone in the upper body or head. For any reason, unless you have deadly intent. Twice in my life I have seriously regretted my actions. Both incidents led to the lose of life. In one case I was no billed by a grand jury. But in the other case I was billed and charged with involuntary manslaughter. The charges stuck and I was convicted. In the first case I was alone against 2 people, one attacking me from the rear. But in the other case I had control of the situation and took that extra step and delivered a kick to the top of a fellows head. It happened so quickly, and once done I could not take it back. There has never been a day that I did not regret what I did in either case, but I can not take it back.
When you overpower someone, you then become the aggressor. He is now the victim, so you have to then be extremely careful that you do nothing that will give you grief later on.

[iron_leg_dave]

I wish I could say that I have never initiated a fight, but I have. When I was in my prime I took money to do such things. However, no matter if you do that or if you are strictly self defense, you have to use your head. There is seldom going to be a situation that allows you to simply bust someone up. These times do exist I suppose, but not under most circumstances. You should never kick anyone in the upper body or head. For any reason, unless you have deadly intent. Twice in my life I have seriously regretted my actions. Both incidents led to the lose of life. In one case I was no billed by a grand jury. But in the other case I was billed and charged with involuntary manslaughter. The charges stuck and I was convicted. In the first case I was alone against 2 people, one attacking me from the rear. But in the other case I had control of the situation and took that extra step and delivered a kick to the top of a fellows head. It happened so quickly, and once done I could not take it back. There has never been a day that I did not regret what I did in either case, but I can not take it back.
When you overpower someone, you then become the aggressor. He is now the victim, so you have to then be extremely careful that you do nothing that will give you grief later on.



Geezuz... dude, that is some heavy schlitz.

[Shadow Skill]

Geezuz... dude, that is some heavy schlitz.

no kidding,

[uki]

use whatever force is needed to end the confrontation... if it takes only the force to walk away, then do it... if it only takes a well placed headbutt to the face, then do it - only puss!es call the cops anyways. i don't consider the law when defending myself from aggression, as my first priority is to concern myself with the moment, not something unforeseen in the future... fear of the laws can be a fatal hesitation. :D

[Lucas]

use whatever force is needed to end the confrontation

thats my mental stance on this issue. what happens happens though. its also highly circumstancial however. i dont believe that in every situation that people will always be able to have complete control over their actions. somethings just really are involuntary by reaction.

[uki]

thats my mental stance on this issue. what happens happens though. its also highly circumstancial however. i dont believe that in every situation that people will always be able to have complete control over their actions. somethings just really are involuntary by reaction.my teacher always told me that if backed into an aggressive situation that i should loudly exclaim three times that i practice and train martial arts... after that, it all fair game. the shaolin have this wonderful perception of the matter at hand... if someone attempts to physically harm them in a situation and they end up having to defend themselves - which might lead to the attacker being killed - this amounts to the attacker having committed suicide. :)

[TenTigers]

I remember when one of the students asked our Tang Soo Do teacher that thing about having to warn them three times, and if it was true.
"Sure. The backfist to the head is their first warning..."

I am always reminded of that scene in "Cannonball Run;"
Roger Moore: "I have to warn you, I'm Roger Moore."
Biker: "Who?"
Roger Moore: "Uh, Roger Moore?" >SMASH!<

I always quote a line I heard , I believe it was in "Weaponless Warriors" not sure, and I think it was Chaka Zulu who said it;
"You can call me Pu$sy, F@ggot, whatever. But you put your hands on me, you're gonna get hurt...bad."

I will use whatever force it takes to stop my opponent from continuing his attack.
Unconciousness usually works.

I teach my students to use barrages and combinations, each one setting up the next. If one or two strikes do the job, you can always stop, rather than only knowing a one shot deal type of reaction. It's like dressing for the cold-you can always take something off, but you can't put on what you don't have.

[TenTigers]

Iron Leg-out of curiosity, how old are you?

[iron_leg_dave]

Iron Leg-out of curiosity, how old are you?

115 yeeyah ol kung fu massah killah!

No, I'm 27.

[Ray Pina]

Train what you train and you'll do what you do.... no thought required.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You are right. You will do what you do best when you do anything. And you can not always think before you act. However, when you have control of any situation it is best to stop there or at least consider the consequences. It is always better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6. At least that is what I have always been told.
Any time you deal with the authorities over someone dying, they ask silly questions like, were you mad, or were you in fear for your very life? It matters. In the first incident I was involved in, I was in the process of defending my very life. Fear was my motivator. In the second incident I had control of the person, and so I could no longer use that excuse. Through witness accounts I had the person under full control, yet I kicked him in his head. It had to be out of anger and not fear. This changed the whole complexion of the situation. It suddenly goes from self defense to manslaughter. Involuntary is just a lesser degree of guilt.
You see, growing up, my hero's and roll models were desperate and dangerous men. I am not what one might consider a good example except possibly for the death penalty or something.

[Eric Olson]

use whatever force is needed to end the confrontation... if it takes only the force to walk away, then do it... if it only takes a well placed headbutt to the face, then do it - only puss!es call the cops anyways. i don't consider the law when defending myself from aggression, as my first priority is to concern myself with the moment, not something unforeseen in the future... fear of the laws can be a fatal hesitation. :D


Uh...that's about the worst advice I've ever heard. You can only use force that is reasonable to the situation or you could end up in jail yourself.

[SPJ]

I was reading the timming and striking thread and this made me think. when in a fight how bad do you want to mess someone up should you grapple them and choke them out or should you just let your hands fly.
personaly I'm more of a fan of striking. plus everytime I think of choking someone out I get reminded of my brother who got charged w/ strangulation when someone pulled a gun on him.. whole nether story
do you even have time to consider the options, or does pure reaction and repetitive traing kick in

only enough to defend ourself.

we do not take laws into our own hand.

that would be the job of the police and other law enforcement officers.

:)

[uki]

Uh...that's about the worst advice I've ever heard. same can be said of the variety of so called advice on these boards.


You can only use force that is reasonable to the situation or you could end up in jail yourself.ummmm... duh, how did you not come to realize this from my post? every encounter is circumstancial, yet i am not gonna let myself be afraid of possible jail time for protecting myself from someone intent on killing me... a jail sentence will end, being killed IS the end. :)

[Ray Pina]

Back away safely and go about your business. Do whatever, and only whatever, it takes to achieve this. Forget the cops. You take advantage of the guy once you have him, give him that extra unnecessary kick to the head... he'll remember. He'll find you and he'll probably be armed.

It's not the movies. If you don't kill the guy he'll hold a grudge. That's why it's most important to avoid the confrontation at all costs.

[Eric Olson]

Back away safely and go about your business. Do whatever, and only whatever, it takes to achieve this. Forget the cops. You take advantage of the guy once you have him, give him that extra unnecessary kick to the head... he'll remember. He'll find you and he'll probably be armed.

It's not the movies. If you don't kill the guy he'll hold a grudge. That's why it's most important to avoid the confrontation at all costs.

What Ray said.

[David43515]

What Ray said.

Guys carry grudges. Thier friends carry grudges. Thier families carry grudges. Thier girlfriends carry grudges. (Starting to get the picture yet?)

And as for that stupid "Only pussies call the cops anyway" remark.....bystanders call the police. People who want you and the guy you`re fighting to pay for the stuff you broke call the police. And people who just got thier ass kicked by you call the police.........and they LIE.

Get used to it.

[TenTigers]

wow. self-defense is alot of work. I would have to hunt down his entire family, and then any witnesses...it would be a bloodbath. Better off just giving them your wallet.

[Eric Olson]

wow. self-defense is alot of work. I would have to hunt down his entire family, and then any witnesses...it would be a bloodbath. Better off just giving them your wallet.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

-Gandhi

[Scott R. Brown]

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

-Gandhi

Except for me....that makes me KING!!!:D

[uki]

Better off just giving them your wallet.but i don't own a wallet, let alone do i have anything to go in it... if people end up attacking me, it will ultimately be to seriously injure me or to end my life - both are justifications to use lethal force if one is not able to escape the confrontation.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"and a fist for a fist makes the whole world full of better fighters...

Guys carry grudges. Thier friends carry grudges. Thier families carry grudges. Thier girlfriends carry grudges. (Starting to get the picture yet?)yeah... it is beginning to look like lots of insecurity issues...

And as for that stupid "Only pussies call the cops anyway" remark.....bystanders call the police.oh but that was great eh?? :p


People who want you and the guy you`re fighting to pay for the stuff you broke call the police.just break the attacker, nothing else... boy... that was a simple one. :rolleyes:

And people who just got thier ass kicked by you call the police.........and they LIE.maybe they shouldn't instigate physical altercations then.

Get used to it.LOL... i am used to everything at this point in my journey. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recall a conversation I heard from two very high ranking Kyokushin guys, they were both high ranking Judoka too.
#1- Yeah, karate has to be in the last resort, I mean, you may have to kill the SOB"
#2-Agreed, I mean you just don't know, he could be some punk and that is that, or he can be some connected fool and he'll be after you and your family,its just insane"
#1- Yeah, had too much of that in Japan....
#2- I hear you, that's what the old man probably meant when he said karate as the last resort, I agree with you...

[Lucas]

there was a time i was confronted by 3 guys drinking out of the back of their pick up truck. 3 drunk guys who wanted to kick my ass for nothing more than the way i looked.(ok maybe i flipped them off, but they started it) i was alone, it was late, i had no escape options. but i had a knife. i put my back to a wall and pulled it. ended up having a few beers with those guys that night.

one time at a party, same deal. some homies wanted to come down on me cuz i wasnt one of theirs. they were drunk of course. i tried to de escelate the situation with words the best i could. no where to run. i ended up getting beat down by a gang that night. worst beating ive ever had. i had to take it. maybe i said something wrong, or looked the wrong way. things can get out of hand pretty quick with a mob.

in the first situation, had i tried to talk or walk, i would have gotten beaten. in the second if i tried to fight back, i probably would have quite a few more scars than i have now, or maybe even be dead.

my point, sometimes **** is un predictable and you dont really have the option of control of the situation. you have to ride the wave sometimes and hope for the best.

[Ray Pina]

This lesson was presented to me when I first to moved to Puerto Rico and a couple local heavies were fu(king with me, drawing my "let's go to the beach" response. Turned into a 3-on-1 jumping with one of them armed with a pipe, which hit me.

Didn't absorb the lesson until a few weeks later when the 3 swelled into about 15... pipes, knives and two guns this time.

Lesson learned: keep the mouth shut. Always swallow the pride and walk away. If engaged, as much violence as can be summoned as quickly as possible and then get away. Find out what word on the street is involving your come-up-ance. Make powerful friends.

[uki]

Make powerful friends.this is the best thing i have seen you post yet. :D

[sansoo99]

Ray Pina is right on, you will train and when in the Sh...t goes down you will know what to do

It will come without thinking and if not you will be the one on the ground bleeding

...if you stop and analyze it will be too late if someone has the intent of hurting you or worse

As for yelling at someone that you practice martial arts...not a good idea

Dont give anything away

If there is crowd, let it be clear you dont want to fight

I have dropped many guys where everybody standing around thought that he slipped and fell

I really dont want to end up in court,

www.martialartifacts.net

[Lucas]

along the lines of misdirection, appearing meek or cowardly (fracturing or staggering your troops) to appear less of a threat has its uses. Then so does standing tall, looking fierce (extra campfires, drummers, and keeping an empty ness in the center of troop formations to appear a larger force) and seemingly unafraid and welcoming confrontation has its uses as well. all the varying tactics will have a time and place.

awareness and possessing the mental faculties to assess and adress the varying circumstances and contributing factors is, IMO, one of the most important elements in being able to determine what route you want to take in defending, evading or avoiding possible confrontations.

with that said, from my point of view, sometimes its a good idea to let someone know what they are getting themselves into, some people just have no clue, and when they realize you're gonna put out your A game, they may have a change of intentions. other times, its good to let someone over zealous to assume you are a weak pushover. alot of that is being able to discerne personality type and intent as well though.

ugh had to go on lunch and lost my train of thought....

[uki]

As for yelling at someone that you practice martial arts...not a good ideai only said this was what a teacher once told me...

[LSWCTN1]

i know many people of the mindset that if you F with them, then you take on board all that they have to offer. Mnay of these people are not agressors, but will not back down.

in the uk we have a nice law where we can act first in we are in fear of our safety.

also, reasonable force is relative. if someone threatens you with a gun theoretically you can take their life in defence. i know things are a little different in America but in the UK if you did you would at least be looking at a manslaughter charge.

one of the points that Uki raised is actually very valid. if someone attacks you either unprovoked or on perceived provocation then they are potentially endangering your life. why shouldnt reasonable force cover unintentional death? in theory?

personally if someone strikes me and i then strike them back we are entering into a mutually agreed arrangement. if one of us walks away or admits defeat and is still attacked - that is assault.

however, almost all (IME) encounters involve alcohol. what usually happens is one person gets hit and then his friends/the doorstaff get involved and break it up. the other party then walks outside to carry one what the first party (who has now left) started. if someone says something along the lines of '1 on 1' then could that not be constituted as a verbal contract, or at least an agreement therefore negating any assault carge? (dont think verbal contracts are legal in the UK? maybe they are in the US though?)

just some thoughts

[Lucas]

its a good point, the only thing is that dueling was outlawed in the states some time ago, so the 1v1 contractual agreement is void due to the law.

:(

I know, its sad....

[uki]

i know many people of the mindset that if you F with them, then you take on board all that they have to offer. Many of these people are not agressors, but will not back down.another aspect of the tiger energy... if you are minding your own buisness and someone physically attacks you, there should be no fear of consequence in what may happen in self-defense - you can only cross one bridge at a time and if you are worried about crossing the second bridge while crossing the first bridge, you might not be aware of the holes in the planks. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Whether you should knock your opponent down or just push him away depends on who you are dealing with. Sometime your "push" may scare your opponent to death (I do wish this can be true in the real world), sometime you just invite him to come back at you again.

[uki]

Whether you should knock your opponent down or just push him away depends on who you are dealing with.it also depends on if some people will be pushed away or knocked down...