Hop Ga History Confusion (Deng lineage?)

[htowndragon]

So here's the thing. I have heard Deng Gum To was the student of Wong Lun, who I was also told was Wong Lum Hoi. In this lineage, Wong Lun is a student of Wong Yan Lum. That would make sense to me. Even if Wong Lum Hoi and Wong Lun were the same student, I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.

HOWEVER, I was reading an article online in Chinese that listed both Wong Lun and Wong Lum Hoi separately as students of Wong Yan Lum. This was written by a student of the Deng lineage.

My question is, who was Wong Lun and was he the same guy as Wong Lum Hoi?

[Chan Da-Wei]

So here's the thing. I have heard Deng Gum To was the student of Wong Lun, who I was also told was Wong Lum Hoi. In this lineage, Wong Lun is a student of Wong Yan Lum. That would make sense to me. Even if Wong Lum Hoi and Wong Lun were the same student, I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.

HOWEVER, I was reading an article online in Chinese that listed both Wong Lun and Wong Lum Hoi separately as students of Wong Yan Lum. This was written by a student of the Deng lineage.

My question is, who was Wong Lun and was he the same guy as Wong Lum Hoi?

Two different people.

You and I had this discussion some time back and I believe I put you wrong, my Chinese is not great!

Sifu David Rogers may be able to answer your query as to who Wong Lun was. Perhaps try contacting him. He's a member on this board.

Cheers,
David

[hskwarrior]

Deng Gum To

thats very similar to what i said when i stubbed my big toe...."dad gum toe!"

[cerebus]

thats very similar to what i said when i stubbed my big toe...."dad gum toe!"


No, no, no, that's a different lineage entirely.... :D

[hskwarrior]

No, no, no, that's a different lineage entirely.... ]

i wonder if the DENG system and the DANG system are the same? anyone got the characters?

[htowndragon]

yeah. Deng and Dang are just different spellings for the same character.

[hskwarrior]

lol i was kidding young brother.

[cerebus]

yeah. Deng and Dang are just different spellings for the same character.

So I WOULD be correct in saying "Deng it all!" :D

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=htowndragon;957124]...I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.QUOTE]

Yes and no. Wong Yan Lum and Wong Lum Hoi (no familial relation, they were gung fu brothers, only) were both students under lama Sing Lung. But Lum Hoi was the youngest member of the five Cantonese disciples and had learned for a shorter time than Yan Lum. When Sing Lung died Wong Lum Hoi continued training under Chu Chi Yiu and Wong Yan Lum, so they were both his sihing and his actual teachers. These three remained close friends for the rest of their lives and often shared the same students.

jd

[htowndragon]

Is there anymore info on this guy? Does he have his own line of people outside of Ng Siu Jung?

I really want to trace back to Sing Lung's original disciples and see what kind of material they got. It's always cool to dissect the system.

[RisingCrane]

Htowndragon:

Wong Lun was Wong Yan Lum's last disciple.
Wong Lun was the nickname for Wong Geng Choh. They are the same person.
I do not know about Wong Lum Hoi. He is not part of our lineage.

The spelling 'Deng' is the pinyin. Many Hong Kong or Cantonese speakers use 'Tang' like 'Tang Fong' (Wong Fei Hong's student.) It's the same character.

I can't help you with your other questions I'm afraid. I can speak Cantonese but I read very little Chinese.

[jdhowland]

Is there anymore info on this guy? Does he have his own line of people outside of Ng Siu Jung?

I would like to learn this, myself. After 35 years of searching for scraps and tidbits of early lama kyuhn history I still haven't found any evidence of a surviving lineage for Chu that doesn't also have either of the Wongs in its pedigree.

He did have students of his own. Besides Wong Lum Hoi, Chu also taught an early lama style to Au Wing Nin. Au wanted to expand his knowledge of the style and later became the senior student of the Ng brothers at about the time Bak Hok was being codified (1920s). This explains why Au's style of white crane is unique and preserves a conservative and less intricate version of lama compared to Ng Siu Jung's later students.

A major problem in finding successors of the various branches is that there were at least two major famines in Gwongdung since the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war. War and disease killed many of those involved in the tradition. The cultural revolution supposedly killed many more. Most lineages known today are from third and fourth generation practitioners who fled to Hong Kong and southeast Asia such as those of Ng Siu Jung, Au Wing Nin, Ng Yim Ming, Lok Chee Fu, Teng Jak Ming, students of Choy Yit Gung, etc.,.

It would be interesting to know how many other versions of Hap Ga still exist on the mainland besides the Deng tradition, which, happily, is now represented on this forum.


I really want to trace back to Sing Lung's original disciples and see what kind of material they got. It's always cool to dissect the system.

I'm with you there, bro. I hope it is still possible to trace lineages by the morphology of the sets. It's problematic now, because the styles exploded in creative restructuring during the first half of the 20th century and, as I've written before, I've yet to see different lineages of Hap Ga or Lama with any sets in common. The situation is only a little better in the White Crane branch, because Ng Siu Jung so actively propagated the system. But even TWC sets with the same name often do not appear to be related. Maybe some were inspired by others and designations such as "lesser" or "greater" were dropped.

Could be worth a graduate thesis, someday.

Be well.

jd

p.s. I was taught that Chu Chi Yu was the senior most of the original five Cantonese students even though Wong Yan Lum became more famous.

[Gru Bianca]

Dear John,

I've sent you a couple of PMs.

Regards :)

[jdhowland]

Dear John,

I've sent you a couple of PMs.

Regards :)


Thanks. Got them.

Gru, I hope you will add information and corrections to this thread

John

[htowndragon]

Au Wing Ning is a famous guy, but other than Steve Richards group I haven't seen anyone who practices his material.

How would you compare/contrast the "older lama style" in comparison to our lineage from Ng Yim Ming?

[jdhowland]

Au Wing Ning is a famous guy, but other than Steve Richards group I haven't seen anyone who practices his material.

How would you compare/contrast the "older lama style" in comparison to our lineage from Ng Yim Ming?

Ooh. Good question. Remember, I may not be able to distiguish what my teachers were learning in the 40s and 50s from what I was taught in the 70s and 80s since I learned Hop Ga and Au Wing Nin style TWC from the same teacher.

Cheuk Tse was planning to write a book about Au Wing Nin style White Crane but nothing seems to have come of it. It does show, however, that he thought that Au's teaching made a unique style. My observation based upon other samples of TWC is that Au's "style" is pared down. It stresses the "seeds" and is not designed for performance art. Very similar to Ng Yim Ming's Hop Ga. My take on Au's system is that he learned "lama kyuhn" first and kept those teachings when he became a student and teacher of White Crane, so it is essentially turn-of-the-century lama style. Cheuk Tse was a student of Ng Siu Jung, first. When grandmaster Ng stopped teaching personally, he sent Cheuk to Au Wing Nin, who, by some accounts, was his senior remaining disciple.

In terms of basic training, our Hop Ga and TWC were the same. This was probably just convenient for our class, which combined both systems, although the Hop Ga sets were taught last among sifu's curriculum.

One major point of similarity is that the chyun cheui is exactly the same in both systems, with no twisting of the forearm before impact. Ng Yim Ming Hop Ga does have a twisting punch similar to the "slipping" hand of some styles or to Choy Lei Fat's chaap cheui. In our school, the twist punch was considered an application of chyun, and not a basic seed, iself.

Our essential fists are: gau, chyun, jin, gwa, deng, bin, paau, kap, chau, nau, jaau, and a short uppercut called johng. There is also a short range straight backfist strike in both systems which I never learned a name for, though I think of it as a "chyun-johng."
jd

[htowndragon]

"slipping" punch, is what we call in our line "sin choi" which is similar to the "chaap choi" of choy lee fut. last time i got my terminology mixed up with "sin" and "sow" because hop gar due to a conversation with a deng family hop gar stylist.

thanks for the info! much appreciated.

[Violent Designs]

interesting stuff.

[Gru Bianca]

If I am not mistaken Au Wing Nam was famous for his Min loy Cham and if the info I got was correct he was called the King of Min Loy Cham.

Not too sure about his "personal" style of Pak Hok Pai, but I know very well someone who could give me some insight on it.

I'll ask.

[once ronin]

Au Wing Nin was known as Min Lui Jum Wong.

How he got there is with religion. As he calmed with Buddhist heart, his internal got better.

Harry Ng on the other hand has violence all aorund him including himself. Harry Ng was said to be a better fighter only because he had no limit to how much he was willing to hurt you.

The early students of Au Wing Nin was known to ah kung fu. The later students was know to wan kung fu.

[htowndragon]

Au Wing Nin was known as Min Lui Jum Wong.

How he got there is with religion. As he calmed with Buddhist heart, his internal got better.

Harry Ng on the other hand has violence all aorund him including himself. Harry Ng was said to be a better fighter only because he had no limit to how much he was willing to hurt you.

The early students of Au Wing Nin was known to ah kung fu. The later students was know to wan kung fu.

In regards to Au and Ng, both make sense to me.

I don't really understand the last part of your statement though.

[jdhowland]

How would you compare/contrast the "older lama style" in comparison to our lineage from Ng Yim Ming?

comparable: Both lineages share the same fists and propensity for many kinds of open-hand strikes. Both have frequent use of the gam gong jih (single finger strike) and biu jih (darting with four fingers). Both use only northern style straight line drills and do not have sahp jih sets.

contrasting: Hap Ga emphasizes long and short hands in early training: TWC methodology emphasizes long power first, then gradually shortens the range. Hap Ga has many slapping strikes but does not use the thrusting palm as much: chang jeung is a basic and very important technique in TWC.

These similarities and differences apply to the versions I have seen but may not be evident among all branches.

jd

[htowndragon]

in my line of hop ga we have the division "bak hok" and "law horn". in "law horn" the two main strikes used are "sin choi" and "sao choi"

do you guys use these too?
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[jdhowland]

in my line of hop ga we have the division "bak hok" and "law horn". in "law horn" the two main strikes used are "sin choi" and "sao choi"

do you guys use these too?...

Our Hop Ga doesn't specify these as divisions, although TWC does. In White Crane, the fei hok sau represents the first several years of conditioning and essential kyuhn based on the lama fists, while lo hon sau is more advanced. My teacher clarified it by stating that the baahk hok is the basic style of the system, emphasizing strong waist turning, whipping power and active footwork. Lo hon comprises the favored fighting techniques of a master or system. He pointed out that many systems have lo hon sets or divisions and that these represent the guardian techniques of a school, the methods relied on to protect your reputation and honor against other trained fighters.

If this is generally true then, yes, lo hon is an advanced type of training not entrusted to everyone. In TWC the maitreya hands and mihn leui jam are the only divisions considered more advanced because they require specialized so-called "internal" training that takes years to learn. I don't know that any school of Hap Ga makes use of those concepts. They may be methods that were developed mostly by Wong Lum Hoi and/or Ng Siu Jung. Think of the wrathful image of a door god...that's the lohon style.

John

[htowndragon]

i dont know how the hell that ad got there so please ignore it.

[htowndragon]

my sifu always said the law horn stuff was "like poison".

[Gru Bianca]

I just came back to the hotel from the Qingyun Si, 庆云寺the temple where based on our tradition Shenglong 升龙spent some time.

There are no written records of him at the monestary despite checking their Buddhist tree at least not under that name.

I bought a book at the temple tough and in it I found two stories where he is mentiioned and apperently he was famous in the area; one of the two stories concerning him is openly stated being the product of a local oral tradition whereas the other story is based on historical records.

Based on the second story it appears therefore that this monk did really exist however it is not mentioned anywhere that he was from Tibet or that he knew Lion's Roar; it is stated he was from Panyu (today part of Guangzhou) and that he was an expert in the Shaolin art.

Of all the students he may have had are mentioned only four, being 德荣 (Derong) 绩荣 (Jirong) 灿荣 (Canrong) and finally 芳容 (Fangrong)

:confused:

[htowndragon]

i thought it was 星龍? (Sing Lung)

[Gru Bianca]

I've seen it written also in that way, as I've seen it written also as 升隆.
In the book I've mentioned in my previous post there is also another story about 洪文定 Hong Wending the son of 洪熙官 (Hong Xiguang) where a Tibetan Monk named 星龙 is mentioned as the inheritor of the Tibetan White Crane originated from 啊达陀 A Datuo in Tibet. According to this story (which is nothing more then just that, a story as many in this obscure kungfu mythology ) Xing Long 星龙 would have passed his Kungfu to a nun named 五枚 Wumei.

You can imagine how mixed up are the history of so many different Kungfu family of the south.