Hong Jong - Empty Dummy

[Yoshiyahu]

Does any one practice the Hong Jong/Air Dummy.

After you learn the Muk Yan Jong form you can also practice it in the air with out a dummy. Does anyone see this as useful or necessary to produce any benefits. If you see any benefits to practicing the Air Dummy/Empty Dumm form let me know?

I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuASgwTsinE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX_puQ553oo

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7928396258421464692&ei=N5eeSvSUHIWyrgLs2dDzCw&q=wooden+dummy+site%3Agoogle.com&hl=en&emb=1#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWosMEZ4-8

[chusauli]

If you're a guy that likes forms and likes long sequences, that is again the benefit of solo practice of the Hung Jong. Its an aid to memory and practicing your movements in the air. Chinese like long forms as it helps to discover the full spectrum of movement and possibilities, and would help them remember movements they might otherwise forget.

I guess you can say that is like sex with an imaginary blow up doll. :)

[couch]

I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.

Hey. I'm the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey. I'm the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.

oh really can I see the video?

[JPinAZ]

We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it's also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.

Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.

I'm not chinese, and not sure about the whole "love long forms" or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me :)

[anerlich]

But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.


You need to get out more. I've been practicing it for over 20 years.

[Phil Redmond]

You need to get out more. I've been practicing it for over 20 years.
You beat me to it Andrew. :)

[bennyvt]

i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.

[Yoshiyahu]

i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.

Great feed back. Finally some well informed answers from a real WC practioner. I am over joyed you shared your experience openly and honestly. May you always increase in skill. But I would have to concur with what you were saying. Also different techniques can be drilled on a person as well as the dummy or even other inanimate objects such as trees to give you different angles and posistioning and height and distances to work with. Excellent keep the quality information coming


We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it's also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.

Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.

I'm not chinese, and not sure about the whole "love long forms" or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me :)


Oh my friend thank you tremendoulsy for sharing your views. Excellent comments. Thank you for showing me that their are real WC fighters left in the world. I understand and agree with all your saying. Personally I don't think Long long forms are beneficial at all. I think shorter forms make more sense. The more condense and simple the better.



If anyone else has any post that are actually useful please share.

[chusauli]

You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.

Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll...? When do you actually get to do it? :)

LOL!

[cobra]

I do it regularly, in the air and on the dummy, good benefits!!!!! Helps the mind too!

[JPinAZ]

You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.

Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll...? When do you actually get to do it? :)

LOL!

Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your 'sense' of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won't continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something :rolleyes:

Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?

[Yoshiyahu]

Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your 'sense' of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won't continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something :rolleyes:

Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?

Hey my friend let me tell you SNT is useful for beginners and idiots. You dont need a form. You want a form watch skill resistant fighters and do what you see them do. This real form practice. You see them punch you punch like they do against resistant compentant fighters. After you spent years of getting socked in head and groin like real compentant fighters than you will understand true Wing Chun.

Sil lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bill Gee have alot of use. Have some smelly unskilled student do those forms in front of mirror imagining they are really fighting. But for us real fighters we don't watch arms flop around in the mirrior. Fighting is like eating. Do you need a mirror to watch the spoon of soup go into your mouth. Do you need a set hand pattern to practice each day to make sure you use the toliet correctly. No you sit your arse down...do some grunting, Push, squeeze and in some instances pulll until you hear the water splash and then you grab some toilet tissue to wipe your arse with. Let me see do you need a solo form to learn how to use the toliet?

Let me Guess. SOTT This means Sit on the toilet.


The SOTT form
First you open. Then your hands slide to your trouser. next you unbutton your troser with the left hand and right hand. Then your right hand slides the zipper down while your left hand clasp your pants together. Next both hands go to your sides. Now slide your trousers down. Next with both hands Gan Sau your drawers. Now squat. Then place all your arse pressure on to bowl. Sit back. Keep the back straight. Head looking forward. Push on your coien. Release and Dispel the negative Chi. Now you did it all your negative vibrations will begin to fill the waters below your buttocks with negative chi stool. After your have completed grunting and some cases yelling and screaming you close by sitting up. Wiping your brown or green buttocks clean of debris. both hands pull your speedos up. Now your trousers. Now your button your trousers with both hands. Next zip the zipper with the right hand. place hands at your side. Now exhale. Thus conclusion of the SOTT form.

Practicing SNT form is like practicing the SOTT Form. its utterly useless unless your attacker decides he needs to practice a forms before he hits you. Oh yea some guy might even attack you with their form on street. Like some Shotokan guy trying to apply his kata upon your face. Then You want to use bil gee or chum kiu to seek his bridge.

In my humble opinion fighting with a set pattern will you get submitted and knocked out. The fight will end before you can even get to Tan Sau fok Sau motion. An you will be the one on the ground bleeding...ha ha...

So if you want a real form find competent fighters who are actually resisting you. Then see if your form wiill defeat them.


Now Chauslis is my answer on the money yet buddy????

Sorry Jpinaz

[chusauli]

My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex. :D

SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.

The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.

So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.

[TenTigers]

Let's use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman, and this is all tongue in cheek.

LOL!

you must've gotten hold of the Greek edition... ;-p (_!_) :D

[bennyvt]

anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.

[CFT]

If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.Depends on what you practice and how you practice.

[Yoshiyahu]

My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex. :D

SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.

The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.

So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.


Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff. Anyway now he agrees with me. An I was talking a mouthful of BS...I was being overly sarcastic and He says I am right by dump thing...Anyway I just wanted to comment on this because in away he is not actually given his opinion on what he believes concerning form practice. On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you? An then on another note he compared my analogy of taking a dump to that of doing forms. So which is buddy...

Tell us Robert Chu...

Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.



Please swallow the blue or red pill. Don't mix them both



anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.



Another Excellent post...Thank you very much for your input. This is the example of a useful post...Although I have no idea what the word **** is??? maybe you can write the word with a non-vulgar counterpart???

[CFT]

Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff.Do you understand the intent of the post? To train using form and then transcending form?


On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you?Isn't there a commonly held view that one can fight after only training SNT and CK? You're confusing curriculum with essence.


Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.Depends where you are in your training. If you understand what the forms give you then you don't necessarily need to return to them unless you think there is value in it. Personally I do think that interactive training with another human being is the best option.

[Paul T England]

Forms can be useful...but as everyone thinks they know best, they will never expand their understand.

Robert is correct in IMHO that you transend form and need to do the real thing wheather.... sex or fighting.

To me, its very useful doing air dummy as its different from on the dummy. most kung fu systems have forms which allow full motion, flow and body cotnrol, air dummy is a good answer to that.

I like returning to the forms although I know them and teach them all the time. I find they provide mental training and a return to basics, elbows, strucutre etc.

I say do what is difficult, forms are easy great move onto sparring, air dummy is easy move onto somethign else, one legged stance is easy, move onto something else....if its difficult for you to do it might be worth doing it more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Yoshiyahu]

Forms can be useful...but as everyone thinks they know best, they will never expand their understand.

Robert is correct in IMHO that you transend form and need to do the real thing wheather.... sex or fighting.

To me, its very useful doing air dummy as its different from on the dummy. most kung fu systems have forms which allow full motion, flow and body cotnrol, air dummy is a good answer to that.

I like returning to the forms although I know them and teach them all the time. I find they provide mental training and a return to basics, elbows, strucutre etc.

I say do what is difficult, forms are easy great move onto sparring, air dummy is easy move onto somethign else, one legged stance is easy, move onto something else....if its difficult for you to do it might be worth doing it more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

another excellent post. In my opinion in a class setting one should seek to drill and spar and chi sau. But when working alone. One should work on their forms, hit their wooden man, practice their solo drills. I believe everytime you practice the form you are developing more skills with in your wing chun. There are new insights and lightbulbs to be turned on everytime you enaged the simple solo basics.

There is a time to drill, a time to fight, a time to chi sau and a time to do form practice.

I don't think forms should be forsaken, When your alone you can work on those things. With other people you work on other things.

[bennyvt]

totally agree in a two hour class an hour form is a waste. But if you do training all day, partner training is impossible and dangerous.

[k gledhill]

forms are simply solo time to develop freefighting as the goal.
Slt develops centerline striking , elbow angles, line clearing actions, attack arm cycling, bridge recovery ....
Chum kil teaches to face with turning , not to turn away from the target ;) huge change in goals.
The dummy is slt + ck movement and the idea flowing with bg thrown in for good measure.

[TenTigers]

I found that the Hong Jong formed a link, or bridged a gap, from the Mook Jong to using the techniques. It's a connection that is formed ,or perhaps broken.
Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.
Hard to express, or imagine, since it is still practicing "form" in the air, but it becomes like shadowboxing. Apparantly, it was a neccesary step, otherwise, would it exist?
Anyway, that is my opinion and limited experience.

[-木叶-]

Hi,

According to GM Ip Chun:

When Si Jo Yip Man arrived in Hong Kong from Fut San (long history skipped), and started to teach Wing Chin, he had a difficulty in teaching the jong faat. There were no such Wing Chun jongs in HK.

This is because in way back in his house, his jong is actually rooted into the ground. In HK, all the houses were multi-storeyed, making it difficult to do that.
Imagine your downstairs neighbour seeing you drill a hole upstairs.

So he came up with the idea of teaching the jong faat, empty handed.

After awhile, his disciples proposed the idea of "hanging" the jong on
a wooden frame, which came to be the jong we are all using now. Further
down the road, many other innovative ideas were introduced, like the standing
nailed ones etc etc.

[anerlich]

You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you?

No. Forms are for solo training.

Class time is better spent on working with partners. If your class is spent doing forms and/or conditioning, it is wasteful, because you can and should do most of that on your own.


Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.

I agree with this.


So he came up with the idea of teaching the jong faat, empty handed.

No disrespect intended, but that idea is hardly a deductive leap of genius.

[-木叶-]

No disrespect intended, but that idea is hardly a deductive leap of genius.

No problem, i'm just contributing what i know, and i didn't mean it to be,
i am just stating the facts.

[chusauli]

Wow...he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff. Anyway now he agrees with me. An I was talking a mouthful of BS...I was being overly sarcastic and He says I am right by dump thing...Anyway I just wanted to comment on this because in away he is not actually given his opinion on what he believes concerning form practice. On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don't do form practice 95% of the time in class do you? An then on another note he compared my analogy of taking a dump to that of doing forms. So which is buddy...

Tell us Robert Chu...

Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.

Please swallow the blue or red pill. Don't mix them both



Yoshi,

Its obvious you are very green and young. And I am being polite.

The form becomes you after a while - how long depends on you. SNT and CK can create almost every move in WCK - so the 95% is not that much of a stretch.

I think you may need remedial reading - I never said 95% of class time is spent on these forms.

Is SNT useful or useless to you? That is the real question. Gu Lao WCK uses no forms. Do you really need a form? Who is the one that needs a form?

As for blue and red pills, perhaps you have mixed up your suppositories...

[chusauli]

I found that the Hong Jong formed a link, or bridged a gap, from the Mook Jong to using the techniques. It's a connection that is formed ,or perhaps broken.
Sometimes, when you play a set like th ejong, you only see it as the jong, or as you and the jong. Hong Jong breaks that connection and brings it to the realm of fighting.
Hard to express, or imagine, since it is still practicing "form" in the air, but it becomes like shadowboxing. Apparantly, it was a neccesary step, otherwise, would it exist?
Anyway, that is my opinion and limited experience.

Rik,

In WCK, you should not wait until you learned Hung Jong to using techniques, you should learn how to apply them immediately. If you wait to learn the Hung Jong, you'd probably be 2-3 years. How can you learn to fight then? Hung Jong does not break any connection of doing forms and transition to fighting - it is still a form - its the Muk Yan Jong set without the Muk Yan Jong.

I think you have confused the Da San Jong method of training with Hung Jong.

Da San Jong is freely mixing the moves learned in WCK in a random freestyle manner, akin to shadow boxing, and can be done in the air or on the Jong.

This is still not doing Mai Sang Jong or the alive stage of combat application of the Jong. And even then, that would only be a beginning - the world of combat is very big - strike, kick, throw/sweep, jointlock, groundfighting and weapons. You still have to get contact.

Forms are handholding; they serve a use for developing in the beginning. They're good for categorizing, aids to memory, perhaps limited aerobic/anaerobic training, structure, position, and a lead in to possibilities.

[TenTigers]

ah, ok. That Makes alot of sense-logical steps and progressions.Thanks!

[Yoshiyahu]

My Friend Robert...Maybe I worded things wrong for you to understand!!!

Did you say that SLT and CK are 95% of Wing Chun. What I got from that was your saying if you know SLT and CK you have 95% of the curriculm?


Is this what you are saying friend?

If so, Then I disagree with your perspective. From my View at best CK and SLT and Bil Jee are 50% of WC. But having those three forms is not the majority of the WC curriculm. But this is my opinion.



Yoshi,

Its obvious you are very green and young. And I am being polite.

The form becomes you after a while - how long depends on you. SNT and CK can create almost every move in WCK - so the 95% is not that much of a stretch.

I think you may need remedial reading - I never said 95% of class time is spent on these forms.

Is SNT useful or useless to you? That is the real question. Gu Lao WCK uses no forms. Do you really need a form? Who is the one that needs a form?

As for blue and red pills, perhaps you have mixed up your suppositories...

[chusauli]

My Friend Robert...Maybe I worded things wrong for you to understand!!!

Did you say that SLT and CK are 95% of Wing Chun. What I got from that was your saying if you know SLT and CK you have 95% of the curriculm?


Is this what you are saying friend?

If so, Then I disagree with your perspective. From my View at best CK and SLT and Bil Jee are 50% of WC. But having those three forms is not the majority of the WC curriculm. But this is my opinion.


You can disagree, and as you state, that is your opinion.

But perhaps try to understand what I am saying and you will gleen more. What movements are not in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu that are not in the rest of the WCK system, excluding the pole, which has a different system behind it? Chi Sao, San Sao, applications, Biu Jee set, Muk Yan Jong and Baat Jaam Dao all are extensions of these 2 basic sets. What can you name that is not present in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu? SNT and CK are your basis - all the rest is for you to learn permutations and combinations. Even Gwai Jang and Fak Sao are just permutations or variations of basic moves in SNT and CK.

As the Chinese state, first learn fixed, then become alive, finally master changes and permutations. This is in all Chinese arts.

You may not realize it now, but what I am saying is not the beginner's POV. Anyway, this is what your sifu is supposed to teach you. How far are you in the WCK system? How long did you learn? And from whom? Did you get the complete transmission?

[-木叶-]

There is a saying that if you truely understand the little idea, you have learnt
Half of wing chun kuen

[Yoshiyahu]

You can disagree, and as you state, that is your opinion.

But perhaps try to understand what I am saying and you will gleen more. What movements are not in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu that are not in the rest of the WCK system, excluding the pole, which has a different system behind it? Chi Sao, San Sao, applications, Biu Jee set, Muk Yan Jong and Baat Jaam Dao all are extensions of these 2 basic sets. What can you name that is not present in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu? SNT and CK are your basis - all the rest is for you to learn permutations and combinations. Even Gwai Jang and Fak Sao are just permutations or variations of basic moves in SNT and CK.

As the Chinese state, first learn fixed, then become alive, finally master changes and permutations. This is in all Chinese arts.

You may not realize it now, but what I am saying is not the beginner's POV. Anyway, this is what your sifu is supposed to teach you. How far are you in the WCK system? How long did you learn? And from whom? Did you get the complete transmission?

Okay I agree that as for techniques the majority of techniques are found with in SLT and CK. But you have other techniques found in Bil Jee and Mok Yan Jong that are prevelant in first two forms. However there are three hands in Wing Chun.
Tan, Fook and Bong. All other techniques are just variations of those three hands. So in essence one can say that 90% of WC system is knowing the three terrors of of WC.

My disagreement is your percentage. But I see what your saying as Permutations and combinations. I do agree with your analogy of that. But I merely saying someone who Just has SLT and CK does not have the entire system. Because the forms do not teach you Sensitivity do they? you need Chi sau for that...Nor does the form teach you how to trap. The forms are an encylopedia. And you just because you have dictionary doesn't mean you have entire term paper. You use the words in dictionary to write your paper. But you need other elements to write a paper. Like practice, ink, pen, computer, etc.

As for naming whats not present in SLT and CK.

Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy

Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy?

Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy?

Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy?

Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee?

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee?

Diaganol downward elbow strikes?

But you are right when you say these are just permutations of SLT and CK. Because one can modify the techniques slightly from SLT and CK and do the same thing. But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik?


But you made some good points I can not deny. Please share with me...What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of?

[chusauli]

Okay I agree that as for techniques the majority of techniques are found with in SLT and CK. But you have other techniques found in Bil Jee and Mok Yan Jong that are prevelant in first two forms. However there are three hands in Wing Chun.
Tan, Fook and Bong. All other techniques are just variations of those three hands. So in essence one can say that 90% of WC system is knowing the three terrors of of WC.

My disagreement is your percentage. But I see what your saying as Permutations and combinations. I do agree with your analogy of that. But I merely saying someone who Just has SLT and CK does not have the entire system. Because the forms do not teach you Sensitivity do they? you need Chi sau for that...Nor does the form teach you how to trap. The forms are an encylopedia. And you just because you have dictionary doesn't mean you have entire term paper. You use the words in dictionary to write your paper. But you need other elements to write a paper. Like practice, ink, pen, computer, etc.

As for naming whats not present in SLT and CK.

Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy

Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy?

Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy?

Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy?

Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee?

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee?

Diaganol downward elbow strikes?

But you are right when you say these are just permutations of SLT and CK. Because one can modify the techniques slightly from SLT and CK and do the same thing. But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik?


But you made some good points I can not deny. Please share with me...What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of?


My 95% statement is to reflect on how important the two sets are. WCK is basically Tan, Bong and Fuk. Sure 90% is okay. Statistics like that are just someone's estimation. 95% of statistics is made up on the spot, including my statement. :)

As for your questions:

Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy - This is found as the Double Chuen Kiu Sao opening of Chum Kiu

Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy? - Simply use the outside Fuk and replace the hand with a diagonal Jum Sao, which creates the upper Jaam Sao, and of course, you have Gaun Sao in SNT...Kwun Sao is just a combo of shifting Bong Sao and upper Tan Sao

Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy? - Huen Sao is in every set of WCK...simply alternate left and right while using CK shifts...

Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy? - Every step is a kick, and you have double Lop Sao in SNT and CK...

Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..

See? All the above is in SNT and CK, just minor variations. When you are technique based, instead of concept and principle based, you get screwed up and think its all different...

But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik? - Yeah, its called a teaching methodology and curriculum...

What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of? - The pole is based on the Su Lam system as it uses a different power base, stances, and movement. As we know from history and lore, it was appended to WCK.

Your analogy of dictionary and encyclopedia are not quite correct in this context.

[David Peterson]

Right on the money, Robert :)
DMP

[chusauli]

Thanks David! Nice to see you here! :)

[Yoshiyahu]

My 95% statement is to reflect on how important the two sets are. WCK is basically Tan, Bong and Fuk. Sure 90% is okay. Statistics like that are just someone's estimation. 95% of statistics is made up on the spot, including my statement. :)

As for your questions:

Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy - This is found as the Double Chuen Kiu Sao opening of Chum Kiu

Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy? - Simply use the outside Fuk and replace the hand with a diagonal Jum Sao, which creates the upper Jaam Sao, and of course, you have Gaun Sao in SNT...Kwun Sao is just a combo of shifting Bong Sao and upper Tan Sao

Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy? - Huen Sao is in every set of WCK...simply alternate left and right while using CK shifts...

Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy? - Every step is a kick, and you have double Lop Sao in SNT and CK...

Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..

See? All the above is in SNT and CK, just minor variations. When you are technique based, instead of concept and principle based, you get screwed up and think its all different...

But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik? - Yeah, its called a teaching methodology and curriculum...

What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of? - The pole is based on the Su Lam system as it uses a different power base, stances, and movement. As we know from history and lore, it was appended to WCK.

Your analogy of dictionary and encyclopedia are not quite correct in this context.



Again there is alot of what you said I can agree with, However some of your comparisons are not quite kosher.


Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..



I believe these to bee off the mark. But again thatsd my opinion. When you speak of Double Lan Sau are you referring to SLT???

[chusauli]

Again there is alot of what you said I can agree with, However some of your comparisons are not quite kosher.


Quote:
Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..



I believe these to bee off the mark. But again thatsd my opinion. When you speak of Double Lan Sau are you referring to SLT???


Kosher or not, that's fine - but now you can see how I see things.

Yes, Double Lan Sao - from SNT.

Off the mark, that's your opinion. I think you do not understand WCK yet, that's my opinion. Maybe in another 30 years, you'll think like me.

[Yoshiyahu]

Kosher or not, that's fine - but now you can see how I see things.

Yes, Double Lan Sao - from SNT.

Off the mark, that's your opinion. I think you do not understand WCK yet, that's my opinion. Maybe in another 30 years, you'll think like me.

I guess I would have to see your applications of the double lan sau?

Do you mean with both arms cross over one another???


Also what benefits does the Hong Jong have for a beginner?

[chusauli]

I guess I would have to see your applications of the double lan sau?

Do you mean with both arms cross over one another???


Also what benefits does the Hong Jong have for a beginner?

Look at the Yip Man SNT, the hands do not cross like in YKS WCK.

Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit.

[JPinAZ]

Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit.

Why not? I think Hong Jung training is PERFECT for someone that knows SNT and has started learning to move around a bit in thier training.
Maybe it's a great way to start to teach a somewhat beginner student ways to move thier whole body once they understand how to use thier individual parts (hands/feet) and how to connect them. They start to learn how the whole body operates and gives them something to practice at home besides just the standing form of SNT. We call this heaven human earth connectivity. Why wait 2 or more years to start learning how to connect the body and use it as a whole unit instead of individual parts?

[anerlich]

My school certainly doesn't wait until after CK to instroduce students to the dummy, be it wood or air.

[Yoshiyahu]

My school certainly doesn't wait until after CK to instroduce students to the dummy, be it wood or air.

You do realize the Air dummy is Wooden dummy form with out the dummy right?


Why not? I think Hong Jung training is PERFECT for someone that knows SNT and has started learning to move around a bit in thier training.
Maybe it's a great way to start to teach a somewhat beginner student ways to move thier whole body once they understand how to use thier individual parts (hands/feet) and how to connect them. They start to learn how the whole body operates and gives them something to practice at home besides just the standing form of SNT. We call this heaven human earth connectivity. Why wait 2 or more years to start learning how to connect the body and use it as a whole unit instead of individual parts?

There in lies the difference. Many Traditional Martial Arts take 20 years to learn. One reason is because the first year all you practice is stances. An each additional year you practice something new. But some legends speculate WC was devised to be learn rather quickly. I can see a definite benefit in learning the

Mook Yan Jong and learning drills on both the Mook Yan Jong and Bamboo dummy.

[JPinAZ]

I agree.
I'm curious why someone with as many years experience as Robert has would say such silly statements as "Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit".
That's like saying they need to learn the forms first before they do partnering training..
I can give someone an air-jong solo form and incorperate it on the dummy as well in the first year to start developing thier footwork, hand work and body unity work early on. No need to even talk about SNT and CK or anything else first before doing that.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Robert Chu please share why its wrong for a beginner to learn the Hong Jong?

Is it okay for the beginner to practice on the Juk Jong?

[couch]

Well Robert Chu please share why its wrong for a beginner to learn the Hong Jong?

Is it okay for the beginner to practice on the Juk Jong?

If you read his post, he comments that before CK is SNT. And generally, you build on the skills from before. So the Jong/Hong Jong are both reserved for when a person has a good foundation in SNT and CK. That was what was said there. Unfortunately and fortunately there is a curriculum is most Wing Chun. You can't teach someone an advanced math problem without teaching them numbers. Same kind of idea with the curriculum. (Note: I say curriculum, not fighting/sparring).

[anerlich]

You do realize the Air dummy is Wooden dummy form with out the dummy right?

Yes, and I don't know why you would think otherwise unless you have comprehension issues.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you read his post, he comments that before CK is SNT. And generally, you build on the skills from before. So the Jong/Hong Jong are both reserved for when a person has a good foundation in SNT and CK. That was what was said there. Unfortunately and fortunately there is a curriculum is most Wing Chun. You can't teach someone an advanced math problem without teaching them numbers. Same kind of idea with the curriculum. (Note: I say curriculum, not fighting/sparring).


So for fighting is it beneficial to practice the dummy while learning SNT CK?

[couch]

So for fighting is it beneficial to practice the dummy while learning SNT CK?

This question doesn't make any sense.

Look:

1. If you're going to learn the curriculum of WC, then it is advisable to learn the dummy after CK. This is regardless of whether you want to fight with your WC or just learn the curriculum. It has to do with building blocks as I mentioned before.
2. Traditional Martial Arts are a strange beast. You can learn a curriculum and never spar/fight. ...just run drills and talk theory all day. As a Registered Acupuncturist, that would be like going to school and learning all the theory, but never having a 700-hour practicum at the end.

So to 'attempt' at answering your question: for fighting, it is barely beneficial to practice any of the open hand forms. For fighting, time is better spent working drills, turning up the heat on them and then putting them into a sparring/fighting context.

[Yoshiyahu]

How do you work on fighting skills or conditioning when you don't have an opponent or partner?



This question doesn't make any sense.

Look:

1. If you're going to learn the curriculum of WC, then it is advisable to learn the dummy after CK. This is regardless of whether you want to fight with your WC or just learn the curriculum. It has to do with building blocks as I mentioned before.
2. Traditional Martial Arts are a strange beast. You can learn a curriculum and never spar/fight. ...just run drills and talk theory all day. As a Registered Acupuncturist, that would be like going to school and learning all the theory, but never having a 700-hour practicum at the end.

So to 'attempt' at answering your question: for fighting, it is barely beneficial to practice any of the open hand forms. For fighting, time is better spent working drills, turning up the heat on them and then putting them into a sparring/fighting context.

[couch]

How do you work on fighting skills or conditioning when you don't have an opponent or partner?

Are you changing the subject or just trying to lead the conversation in a direction where my answer will be to your liking?

Here's a good answer to your question nonetheless:
http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/34089.html

...This stuff is probably a helluva lot better than hitting the Jong all day.