Let's do it with "style"

[MightyB]

As promised, we need to stop talking so much 'bout "what if's" and start talk'n 'bout solutions.

I'll offer mine- feel free to contribute:

Start with fighting as it is now as a base. Not what we think fighting was like 300 years ago- start with "what is" as a given. Use that as your basis for training.

Teach jabs, slips, crosses, hooks, basic kicks, footwork, neck wrestling, basic takedowns... oh my goodness, yes I'm saying teach "glorified" kickboxing or San Shou to beginners. The idea is to create a "fighter" as a base.

Do that for up to 3 years, you know- bag work, sparring, etc.

While you're doing this- gradually introduce the concepts of your system. Like in mantis, show how to use the intercepting hand (tu sau) to link strikes and throws and set up combinations- introduce the diu sau and foom sau, etc. Gradually introduce the monkey footwork.

Maybe introduce a form... (after 3 - 4 years) but, because you started with a fighter- you have a guy who's using the stuff you're gradually introducing. Extend this gradually over time where you're training an experience "fighter" the concepts and techniques that work from your "style".

Given enough time- you'll mold a fighter into a Mantis man.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What???
Started them with the most natural way to be an effective fighter and then when that core is developed, introduce advanced principles to make the most out of the solid core???
That's crazy talk !!!
You must be part of some cult !!!
:p

[Lucas]

how dare you be realistic and all!

[sanjuro_ronin]

how dare you be realistic and all!

The nerve of some people !

[MasterKiller]

Maybe introduce a form... (after 3 - 4 years) but, because you started with a fighter- you have a guy who's using the stuff you're gradually introducing. Extend this gradually over time where you're training an experience "fighter" the concepts and techniques that work from your "style". After 3 or 4 years of 'fight' training, I doubt they would want to spend anytime learning forms.

[Pork Chop]

If I had my druthers....

I would focus on laying a foundation with skillsets, probably at least a year in duration (or until they grasped it enough to be proficient - like blue belt level) and I'd do it in this order:

wrestling (freestyle, folkstyle, or greco) - to focus on simple takedowns, takedown defense, & ground positioning

boxing - basic punching, punching defense, boxing strategy, footwork, and power generation

jacket wrestling (judo and/or bjj) - 2 parts, standing & ground, sweeps, hip throws, & defenses. more ground positions/movement, & submissions

muay thai - teaching kicks, hand & feet combos, kicking defense, clinch with knees & elbows

san shou - integrating the striking with the takedowns

mma - integrating everything

Traditional breathing, meditative, and flexibility training will be incorporated to warm ups & cool downs at all phases. Also at all phases there will be at least one day each for striking, clinch, and ground to be able to maintain stuff already learned.

This is kind of what i'm looking to do with my kid, if he shows any interest.

The method to the madness is that I feel wrestling is the base of mma. Guys from wrestling backgrounds, who have rudimentary striking & submission skills are still at the top of the food chain in mma. I've also had a very hard time transitioning into grappling training, coming from a purely striking background.

When it comes to striking stuff, my muay thai coach used to say "it's easier to teach a boxer to kick than it is to teach a kicker to box"; so the footwork, power, defense, strategy, and rhythm of boxing can really build a great foundation.

I think jacket wrestling is when you really start to go from gross motor movement to all the really cool advanced stuff. It opens up a lot of possibilities. It reinforces the emphasis placed on balance on the feet and proper positioning on the ground.

The muay thai and san shou phases will probably blend together. The first of the 2 phases will be teaching the proper tools (a ton of time spent throwing an azzload of kicks), there will be an intermediary strategy stage to learn the gameplan of muay thai, and the next phase will be re-integrating the takedowns & balance learned from the earlier grappling phases. I keep them separate because Thais at the top of their game still do well at san shou without changing their style all that much.

MMA will just be putting all the pieces together.

I'd actually consider trying to integrate at least some aspects of a tcma style even as early as the boxing stage, specifically odd-angle punches, and some bridging/gate theory. By the mma phase it'd be nice to integrate distancing, striking-takedown-submission combos, and some additiona strategies/theories/principles.

The traditional would be flavor to the base skill set. So if they've got long arms maybe something like hop ga by the mma phase; or if their muay thai focuses on elbows & teeping the centerline maybe mix in some wing chun or xingyi. Some stuff, like the principles of life gate & death gate, already appear in the base "sport" skill set so it would just be expanding on that.

[Lucas]

if your boy shows interest, he'll be a good fighter with your attention.

[TenTigers]

As promised, we need to stop talking so much 'bout "what if's" and start talk'n 'bout solutions.

I'll offer mine- feel free to contribute:

Start with fighting as it is now as a base. Not what we think fighting was like 300 years ago- start with "what is" as a given. Use that as your basis for training.

Teach jabs, slips, crosses, hooks, basic kicks, footwork, neck wrestling, basic takedowns... oh my goodness, yes I'm saying teach "glorified" kickboxing or San Shou to beginners. The idea is to create a "fighter" as a base.

Do that for up to 3 years, you know- bag work, sparring, etc.

While you're doing this- gradually introduce the concepts of your system. Like in mantis, show how to use the intercepting hand (tu sau) to link strikes and throws and set up combinations- introduce the diu sau and foom sau, etc. Gradually introduce the monkey footwork.

Maybe introduce a form... (after 3 - 4 years) but, because you started with a fighter- you have a guy who's using the stuff you're gradually introducing. Extend this gradually over time where you're training an experience "fighter" the concepts and techniques that work from your "style".

Given enough time- you'll mold a fighter into a Mantis man.
nope. you will produce a fighter who will never use anything that was introduced later. "Under stress, we digress." he will always revert back to what he first learned, when pressured.
Now, I'm not saying that everything you have is wrong. On thr contrary, you outlined a perfect trainng plan. Just the end part needs to be omitted.

Now, if you train the foundational techniques of whatever style you wish to train, you can then add all the other stuff, and you will have a person who fights using his "style," and is capable of doing all the other things. Why does it owrk in reverse? Because the framework is what is being developed during the foundation, whether it is kickboxing or Kung-Fu, and the other skills are layered on.
You may dissagree, but it's been proven over and over, year after year, and it is the reason why the whole conversation comes up about Kung-Fu guys fighting like kickboxers. Whatever you learned first, is what you will revert back to.

[YouKnowWho]

After 3 or 4 years of 'fight' training, I doubt they would want to spend anytime learning forms.
After a student has learned:

- jab, hook, upper cut, back fist, hammer fist, ...
- front kick, side kick, round house kick, spin back kick, crescent kick, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ...
- hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, inner hook, ...
- neck choke, arm bar, leg bar, side mount, 69 mount, ...

they may want to find a way to remember what they have learned so they won't forget. A personal training form for memorize purpose may be valuable at that moment.


Given enough time- you'll mold a fighter into a Mantis man.
IMO, this is going backward.

When a fire starts, the color is red (or blue). Whe the fire has reached to the highest temperature, there is no color there. If we look at the highest level of Mantis form, the 摘要 (Zhai Yao) form, all the mantis flavor has been removed.

I prefer the "let's do it with no style" approach instead.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You would be better served to forget about all that other silly stuff and learn a real gung fu. Like Wing Chun.

[SPJ]

whatever you do first or most of the time.

they stick with you the rest of your life.

:eek:

[diego]

As promised, we need to stop talking so much 'bout "what if's" and start talk'n 'bout solutions.

I'll offer mine- feel free to contribute:

Start with fighting as it is now as a base. Not what we think fighting was like 300 years ago- start with "what is" as a given. Use that as your basis for training.

Teach jabs, slips, crosses, hooks, basic kicks, footwork, neck wrestling, basic takedowns... oh my goodness, yes I'm saying teach "glorified" kickboxing or San Shou to beginners. The idea is to create a "fighter" as a base.

Do that for up to 3 years, you know- bag work, sparring, etc.

While you're doing this- gradually introduce the concepts of your system. Like in mantis, show how to use the intercepting hand (tu sau) to link strikes and throws and set up combinations- introduce the diu sau and foom sau, etc. Gradually introduce the monkey footwork.

Maybe introduce a form... (after 3 - 4 years) but, because you started with a fighter- you have a guy who's using the stuff you're gradually introducing. Extend this gradually over time where you're training an experience "fighter" the concepts and techniques that work from your "style".

Given enough time- you'll mold a fighter into a Mantis man.

Jackie chan studied forms at a young age and made millions, the problem is people are boring and lazy.

[Yum Cha]

The kind of guy that comes into TCMA after a start in combat styles seems to fit into the evolution of training being mentioned. Its not a one school solution, but it is common. Start athletic and adrenalin laced, and evolve into more intricate stuff; maybe you got to go a bit more mellow due to wear and tear.

But a novice trained up with no fighting experience who just learns the style is a lot different. Harden them up with a bit of pressure testing and the talented ones don't pick up the western style, but they learn how to work against it. But ****, takes a long time in my experience, 5-7 years isn't uncommon.

Of course, I think that you need some full contact boogie in your martial arts life, just like you need forms, pad work, breathing exercises and stretches/chi gung. Its just getting the mix right over your career.

[SavvySavage]

MightyB,
I think you're on to something. I was thinking of the evolution of Kung Fu to be the same way. Skill training/sparring first and forms years later.

This is not backward. IMO it is backwards to teach a complete newb forms, have them meditate on technique, practice those contrived techniques on non-resisting opponents, and then hope they will be able to fight one day. They'll look good on paper as "knowing" Chinese martial arts. These same individuals will resort to dome sort of bad kickboxing when under duress. I've seen it. Unless they trained crappy kickboxing on their own I don't see how one could say "digress under stress". They did forms for years.

The above "traditional" method of training was only valid when Kung Fu masters were streetfighting. They would drill and do form and then go test it out against a real opponent. Why do you guys think the old stories always go the same way. A super talented older man, who knew a secret style, beat younger stronger Kung fuers who were already established fighters. These youngins nelt down and disciples with said older man. The key to these stories is that they were already trained street fighters. They were already training breath, structure, power, etc and beat people. The new secret style they were taught ENHANCED what they already knew. Essentially, as a metaphor, these fighters put raw materials(a cow) into a machine and steak came out.
When doing martial arts you have to want the real beef and leave the tofu for the people who can't handle the beef.

Dong Hai chong did it when he first introduced ba gua to the world. Lam Sang did it this way too with his second group of disciples.

[MightyB]

I believe I heard once that Forms came from Fighting, not the other way around. IMO we do teach backwards.

---

Master Wang - I love your "style". Way to put it into perspective.

---

I had to stop and take notes after reading Pork Chop's post. Man- you got it all worked out already. Seems like you've been thinking about this for a long time.

---

Savvy- seems to me that we're a lot alike and coming to a lot of the same conclusions.

---

Good posts and a lot of great ideas. Thanks guys.

[Pork Chop]

I had to stop and take notes after reading Pork Chop's post. Man- you got it all worked out already. Seems like you've been thinking about this for a long time.


just a few years :D

started learning wrestling with my best workout buddy last night
hoping to use the time with him to springboard me into being more comfortable with the actual training of the grappling stuff (kinda got proximity issues).
he was like "wanna see my best throw that i'm catching all these bjj guys with?"
i'm expecting ankle pick or a sweet double
he busts out an arm and hip throw
in other words, o-goshi (大腰), the only Judo throw I've spent any real time on
small, crazy world

[TenTigers]

I think you're on to something. I was thinking of the evolution of Kung Fu to be the same way. Skill training/sparring first and forms years later.


I, and several others on this forum have been saying this FOR YEARS.

If you go back in time,when warring states were fighting for territory, what do you think they taught first, forms, or drilling, hitting and fighting?
What do they teach in boot camp, forms?
Now, fast forward a bit;
Ming loyalists overthrowing the Ching Dynasty-how do you think they trained-forms, or drilling, hitting, and fighting?
Fast forward again-
the fights go from the battlefields to the streets-again, what do you teach? Foorms, or Drilling, hitting and fighting?
Fast forward yet again.
Now people are opening up schools. They do public demonstrations, in attempts to bring in more students. What do you put out there, drilling, hitting and fighting?-or forms? "Oh, we are better-we do the Tiger/Crane form." "No, we are better. We do the Drunken Fist" etc.

The reality is, forms (unless they are developmental, such as Siu Lim Tau, Sam Bo Ging, Samjien Kuen, etc) were taught LAST, only after the drills, skills, and fighting were taught, more of a diploma of sorts, as a textbook, and further polish. Sometimes forms were only taught to lineage bearors.


" IMO it is backwards to teach a complete newb forms, have them meditate on technique, practice those contrived techniques on non-resisting opponents, and then hope they will be able to fight one day. They'll look good on paper as "knowing" Chinese martial arts. These same individuals will resort to dome sort of bad kickboxing when under duress. I've seen it. Unless they trained crappy kickboxing on their ownhow one could say "digress under stress". They did forms for years.
I don't seeThe above "traditional" method of training was only valid when Kung Fu masters were streetfighting. They would drill and do form and then go test it out against a real opponent.

This is not the traditional way to learn Kung-Fu. This is crap, McKwoon type-teaching, and bad Shaw Bros. movies. Are you basing your understanding of Kung-Fu based on this type of training and these stories? No wonder you "woke up!" LOL


Welcome to the Dark Side, young padiwon:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

Skill training/sparring first and forms years later.
When I started my sparring during my young age, I realized that it was easier to dodge a punch than block it. When I started to learn the forms, I tried to pay attention on the "dodging" moves in those forms, unfortunately, I couldn't find any.

[TenTigers]

When I started my sparring during my young age, I realized that it's easier to dodge a punch than block it. When I started to learn the forms, I tried to pay attention on the "dodging" moves in those forms, unfortunately, I couldn't find any.

That would depend on what style and forms you learned. Some forms have them, some don't. Sometimes, it is in the footwork,turns, steps, shifts,etc. Sometimes not.

In most systems, the forms serve one purpose, the Sifu provides the rest-which is often where the breakdown occurs.
An easy example is WCK. The forms are developmental. The drills, and fighting are taught by the Sifu. This is where a good Sifu can make or break a style.

[MightyB]

That would depend on what style and forms you learned. Some forms have them, some don't. Sometimes, it is in the footwork,turns, steps, shifts,etc. Sometimes not.

In most systems, the forms serve one purpose, the Sifu provides the rest-which is often where the breakdown occurs.
An easy example is WCK. The forms are developmental. The drills, and fighting are taught by the Sifu. This is where a good Sifu can make or break a style.

This is too funny. Seriously- if you knew who youknowwho's Master was, you'd feel kind'v silly. I'm 100 percent sure his master taught applications... man tenTigers, you have me ROFL.

[Ray Pina]

That's exactly how boxing and kick boxing train. And after you get the basics down every coach will have their own thing. Parrying and countering, however you do it, is nothing new or relegated to fighters in a temple in China 1,000 years ago. All the tricks are out there. No one has them all. You go look for what ya like or keep your eyes open for that something you like when you see it.

[TenTigers]

This is too funny. Seriously- if you knew who youknowwho's Master was, you'd feel kind'v silly. I'm 100 percent sure his master taught applications... man tenTigers, you have me ROFL.

um, seriously, if you had read the post...

[MightyB]

um, seriously, if you had read the post...

Got it... anyway- I think we're all in agreement on this one. So who's coming up with the next interesting thread?

[TenTigers]

Got it... anyway- I think we're all in agreement on this one. So who's coming up with the next interesting thread?

well, that's the thing. For most of us, we are in agreement:
1. Traditional Kung-Fu, when trained the way it was originally trained is all about training for fighting with drills, bagwork, conditioning-lien gung, and fighting. Forms were ALWAYS secondary, if at all. (excluding developmental forms)

If you look at traditional poems, kuen kuit, maxims, such as "Yat Dahm, Yee Lik, Sam Gung-Fu" or "Lien Kuen But Lien Gung, Do Lo Yat Chung," and others, you notice, NONE of them are about forms. All of them are about training, and fighting.

It's not the style, it's the training methods.

2. The people that dissagree, usually have thier views based on poor experiences/teaching methods.
This has happened in the past several generations. (not in all schools, but definately in many)

We,, as representitaves of our generation have the opportunity, and more so, the responsibility to change that.
That does not mean throwing out your Kung-Fu and just doing kickboxing, but really seeing how your Kung-Fu should be taught. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
As Sifu Raymond Wong says,"Keep the Kung-Fu in Kung-Fu."

once we put all that behind us, we can concentrate on the hows and whys, and all of us can benefit.
"The rising tide lifts all boats"

[Scott R. Brown]

1) Buy Handgun!

2) Buy Ammo!

3) Practice shooting gun!

4) Practice drawing and then shooting gun!

5) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving!

6) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving behind and around obstacles!

7) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving behind and around obstacles at moving targets!

8) Shoot Martial Artist who is annoying you with his EEEEEyyyowwwww sounds!:)

[YouKnowWho]

Some forms have them, some don't. Sometimes, it is in the footwork,turns, steps, shifts,etc. Sometimes not.
As far as I know, the "偏頭 (Pian Tou) - head dodging" (dodge your head under your opponent's hook punch - boxers do that a lot) doesnot exist in any long fist, prey mantis, Zimen, Baji, WC, Taiji, XingYi forms that I know. It doesn't even exist in the SC 24 Si (solo forms). The only place that I know is in the SC 2 men drills (front cut counter front cut) that when your opponent's right hand holds on your left upper lapel (behind the neck), you rotate your head under his right arm and move your head to the other side of his arm so he won't have a good holding on you. The "偏頭 (Pian Tou) - head dodging" was designed to avoid a colar grip but it can also be used to dodge a hook punch. Someone told me that this move is not allowed to be used in Judo tournament. The reason is unknown (since I'm not a Judo guy).

Why the form designers didn't include such important move? I still don't know why.

[TenTigers]

good question. We have it in our Ng Ying Kuen-Five Animal Form, in our Dragon section, the body bends and sways at the waist in an arc, as if you are bobbing and weaving,m and then shoots a biu-jee. The application which was shown to me was ducking under the hook punch , and then countering with an eye strike.

Like I said, the forms will only give you so much, the rest comes from the Sifu's direct transmission, and of course, from yourself..

[Ray Pina]

Personally I prefer shielding to dodging. In fact, it's the one thing I dislike about boxing. I feel like one can go down this road of ducking, then ducking again, then weaving. No one's that good. No one can see it all coming or guess right every time. And can you guarantee you're the fastest, with the better instincts? And if so, can you be sure of that tomorrow?

I'd rather hide behind shielding. But that's the beauty right? everyone has their thing.

[TenTigers]

ducking, slipping, bobbing and weaving, gets you inside the range of his strikes. Covering will keep you at his range, where he can continue.
This is what separates the "sweet science" from standing there and simply beating each other senseless.

[SavvySavage]

Si lum Tao, Sam Bo gin, etc are developmental forms because they train breathe and structure...and should therefore be taught first? All forms train these attributes. Name a form that doesn't train them. It's all propoganda. You don't need to learn gung gee fook Fu first to have power and what not. The moves in that form happen to be in all the other forms so if you memorize the gung first it makes memorizing the rest of the forms easier.

Martial arts is the only kind of movement where you "need" to learn forms. If they taught a swimming form people would take years to learn how to swim if ever. Same thing for a bike riding form.

If people taught forms years later there would be no one to perform for the new year. The developers of forms were actually fighting and they wanted to catalogue the tricks they knew so they could:
1. Memorize them and train into old age
2. Possible pass these tricks on to other fighters.

The Fu non choi fist is a trick. You strike with a single knuckle cause you know it has abdifferent feel on the adversaries body than your fist and allows forndifferent reCtions for you to take advantage.

The single palm change of ba gua was meant to show horizontal power. Once you understand the feeling you try to apply his power in push hands and sparring...you don't drill single palm change for 7 years.

[TenTigers]

"Si lum Tao, Sam Bo gin, etc are developmental forms because they train breathe and structure...and should therefore be taught first? All forms train these attributes. "

not true. not in the same way. SPM has very subtle, but very specific body structures, alignments,movement and breathwork. The Sam Bo Ging focuses specifically on these. Siu Lim Tau also focuses on training correct structure-which because of the range they play at-it becomes much more crucial. Proper elbow position, alignment and connection must be developed at the foundational levels.
It's like mechanical engineering. Smaller, precise movements require greater detail, higher tolerances, etc. Large gross movements have a greater margin of error.

"If people taught forms years later there would be no one to perform for the new year."

You completely missed the point. If you had understood my post, you would've gotten that teaching forms last was the method that was used when they were teaching people to fight. The performances etc, all came much later, which is why the emphasis changed.
Fighters were not demonstrating on New Year's.
Also, many forms were not meant for outsiders. Face it, Siu Lim Tau, Samjien, Sam Bo Ging etc were not demo forms. To the untrained eye, these forms are boring, and nonsensical. They are not for the public.

"The single palm change of ba gua was meant to show horizontal power. "

Very elementary understanding of this, but a good explanation for beginning students. You cannot overload them with thoughts and concepts in the early stages, or they get confused. The single palm change is horizontal, vertical, contains strikes, spiraling energy,sweeps, footwork, turns, takedowns, joint-locking., etc. But focusing and concentration on one thing to develop proper foundation is crucial.

.you don't drill single palm change for 7 years

I agree. But, Dong Hai Chuan's original students, were all highly skilled practitioners in their own right, before they came to him. They most likely did not spend 7 years.

Also-when a teacher says drilling the single palm change for seven years, he isn't saying that, and nothing else. Just like when they say,"Three years samjien." The student practiced the form, hei-gung, striking the post, spcific weight training, jars, iron palm, conditioning, etc. One can only imagine the type of person you will have then. After that, (the developmental stage) the rest is technique.

Don't take everything at a such a superficial level, and then make judgements based on this.
Delve a little deeper into these arts. Do some research, seek out the best teachers, ask questions. Some questions have simple answers. Others, require a little work, and thought.

[TenTigers]

I think the problem arises, when teachers overload their students with forms.
Sure, some do it for demos, some do it for curriculum requirements.
The more physically demanding forms,"raise your level" of fitness, coordination, flexibility, stamina-more associated with Northern and Wu-Shu type styles.

But there is also that mentality that by learning a form, you are transformed into a fighter. I blame this type of thinking on crappy Shaw Bros. films. Every one of these has the young student avenging his teacher/family/father, etc by learning the secret form, and then beating the bad guy.
People actually buy into this garbage, and their teachers encourage it.

There is also the mentality that if you learn the forms of a system, then you can grasp its fundamental techniques and concepts.
I know people who learned the entire forms syllabus of Wing Chun in two years. Sure, the forms are short, no complicated footwork, piece of cake.
Do they know the system? Of course not. Only a fool would believe this. (there are many of these such fools, evidently)
The, "Oh, I got it," mentality.:rolleyes:
Some people learn one or two sets of a system, and then think they "Know it."
That is like learning a few strings on the guitar, or a few keys on the piano.

The forms are only one piece of the puzzle-and a very small piece at that. So small, that in many cases, it is quite unneccesary.
The real understanding comes from the direct hands on transmission from a qualified Sifu, the countless drilling, exchanging, hitting,sweating, etc.
The same way you learn any skill.
Take boxing-just because you know how to do a semi-decent jab, cross, uppercut, and hook, does not in any way, shape, or form, mean you understand boxing.

Then you get some students who wake up and realise that this is NOT the way to train.
Unfortunately, they now have this jaded idea that that is the method, ALL traditional Sifus use.
Perhaps their experience is not the norm.
Traditional forms doesn't make the training traditional and correct.
Neither does lineage.
Nor famous teachers.


(actually...it's all in the silk pajamas-ya gotta have the silk PJ's)

[SavvySavage]

Now you're not understanding my posts. I'm not talking about supposed training in the old days. I'm talking about learning usable skills NOW.

Rudamentary understanding of the single palm change? I think my understanding is spot on. Yours sounds like you read it off a website. The single palm change has strikes and sweeps in it? All it is is you waving your hands around in the "bagua" way. You may be able to interpret strikes and sweeps but that is the problem with the current model. It's all interpretation of what you could do and not what you can do. Martial arts has become too mentally involved. There are sweeps in judo but they don't practice bagua. You don't need the single palm change to learn how to sweep and strike. That goes back to my analogy about learnng the swimming form instead of just going in the water and swimming.:o

[TenTigers]

Now you're not understanding my posts. I'm not talking about supposed training in the old days. I'm talking about learning usable skills NOW.

nope. Correct training is correct training. You seem to think that training was different in the old days. It wasn't. Training was hands on, drilling, conditioning and fighting. The only thing that has changed is that we have modern equipment, and better knowledge of physiology, and nutrition.
Where did you get your ideas about this so-called "traditional" training? You are way, off.

Rudamentary understanding of the single palm change? I think my understanding is spot on. Yours sounds like you read it off a website. The single palm change has strikes and sweeps in it? All it is is you waving your hands around in the "bagua" way. You may be able to interpret strikes and sweeps but that is the problem with the current model. It's all interpretation of what you could do and not what you can do. Martial arts has become too mentally involved. There are sweeps in judo but they don't practice bagua. You don't need the single palm change to learn how to sweep and strike. That goes back to my analogy about learnng the swimming form instead of just going in the water and swimming.

Nope again. My teachers taught me the "Traditional" way. More tiime spent on hands on applications and drilling, than waving your arms.

Man, if "All it is is you waving your hands around in the "Bagua" way," well, what can I say...

But hey, if it works for you, then fine. I don't know how long, and under whom you've studied Bagua-don't want to either.
But apparantly, you've come to the point where you've surpassed those methods. Good for you. You've got it. you know it, and they no longer are valid for you.

So, where to now? Are you no longer doing Bagua? Are you studying something else?
Share your experiences.

[bawang]

When I started my sparring during my young age, I realized that it was easier to dodge a punch than block it. When I started to learn the forms, I tried to pay attention on the "dodging" moves in those forms, unfortunately, I couldn't find any.

pu bu and xu bu "cat stance" are dodging
"cat stance" in chinese is "shan bu" dodge stance
ding bu, xie bu, cha bu are all dodge stances

forms teach you common techniques but not your system. u are right

the truth[/B]

u are right too

[bawang]

As promised, we need to stop talking so much 'bout "what if's" and start talk'n 'bout solutions.


Start with fighting as it is now as a base. Not what we think fighting was like 300 years ago- start with "what is" as a given. Use that as your basis for training.

Teach jabs, slips, crosses, hooks, basic kicks, footwork, neck wrestling, basic takedowns... oh my goodness, yes I'm saying teach "glorified" kickboxing or San Shou to beginners. The idea is to create a "fighter" as a base.

.
hi

traditional northern training already trains all of those for beginners, theyre called "jibeng gong" beginner skills

[Pork Chop]

I agree with you Ray that head movement isn't the end-all be-all; as you get older your reactions diminish, and someone who's smart will throw a punch to where he knows your head's gonna be. Feinting is all but a lost art in boxing, but it can really wreak havoc on people who rely on head movement.

On the other hand, if by shielding you're talking shelling - then that's not all that great either. I've seen a little bit of crazy monkey and in a boxing gym shelling is something you pick up in the first 6 months, usually. Remy Bonjasky pulls it off in K1, other guys even manage to pull it off in mma, but I really hate it as a strategy. Even if you don't get 100% out of the way with head movement, you can still take a lot of the power off the punch by re-angling yourself. With shelling, you literally turn yourself into a punching bag and hope that your arms/gloves absorb enough of the blow to keep you from getting hurt.

Funny enough, I actually do like an active defense. A lot of those old fashioned karate & kung fu blocks may not translate well these days. But if you look at a lot of Thais or Jack Johnson (the old boxer), James Toney, even George Foreman, parrying WITH head movement can really take a guy out of his game. Done properly you can gain dominant position AND disrupt the other guy's balance.

[TenTigers]

PC, when you say shelling, are talking about the Boston Crab type of shielding?
I think there are a few other terms for it. We do it alot in Hung-Ga, and Ali used it, as well as Suger Ray Leonard. You also saw alot of point-fighters pick up on it, and I think the Jailhouse Rock guys call it skull and crossbones.
Duncan Leung and Alan Lee's guys make great use of it with kwun-sao variations.

[Pork Chop]

well the real crab style that archie moore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATaP2TyF9U) fought out of was a movable thing, it involved parrying & head movement in addition to the guard.

crazy monkey mighta been a bad example; as in addition to the guard, you do try to parry a little bit with your elbows.

the "shelling" that I'm talking about is putting your gloves on your forehead, digging your elbows into your ribs and just trying to hold that structure while the other guy tees off on you. It's something they teach you at the beginning in boxing to counter a guy flurrying on you, but it's kind of a "last resort" thing. basically what the dude in the white wife beater's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrYo9Itxd9M) doing the first half of this vid

[Ray Pina]

I don't like shelling either. My master used to tell me I was like an ostrich suticking his head in the sand doing that.

I don't like the turtle position in BJJ either. It's essential in sport jiu-jitsu... doing that on the street is a dead end.

[Pork Chop]

I don't like the turtle position in BJJ either. It's essential in sport jiu-jitsu... doing that on the street is a dead end.

Agree with you 100% here
it should be legal to power bomb people in turtle position in bjj competitions

[dimethylsea]

The single palm change of ba gua was meant to show horizontal power. Once you understand the feeling you try to apply his power in push hands and sparring...you don't drill single palm change for 7 years.

Gotta disagree here bro. One of the first things I ever learned in martial arts (bagua is my first style) was something called "fan zhang", a simple stationary version of single palm change. 10 years in.. I'm doing and using it constantly. Yes I drill it. It feels wonderful.
Sure you want to apply things in push hands and sparring.. doing so early and often is good.. but drilling outwardly simple movements hundreds and thousands of times is really where the fun is. It's also where the fight is at!

[dimethylsea]

Rudamentary understanding of the single palm change? I think my understanding is spot on. Yours sounds like you read it off a website. The single palm change has strikes and sweeps in it? All it is is you waving your hands around in the "bagua" way. You may be able to interpret strikes and sweeps but that is the problem with the current model. It's all interpretation of what you could do and not what you can do. Martial arts has become too mentally involved. There are sweeps in judo but they don't practice bagua. You don't need the single palm change to learn how to sweep and strike. That goes back to my analogy about learnng the swimming form instead of just going in the water and swimming.:o

Single Palm Change is a principle. It is the notion that I change my leading hand and/or my leading hip as I change a future direction of motion.
Single Palm Change as a set classical movement in a bagua style helps you capture that line's flavor, it tells you what that line favors in the way of building power.. how do they like to grow their gongfu.

Single Palm Change is not striking or sweeping.. but many strikes or sweeps contain the Single Palm Change principle. You do the set piece movement for power by that teacher's standards.. but the whole time you are learning to see close cousins of your movement in all sorts of things that hurt people.
Part power, part perspective.

If you do something often enough you will start to "see it in everything".

[Ray Pina]

Agree with you 100% here
it should be legal to power bomb people in turtle position in bjj competitions

Sport BJJ is OK. In MMA I feel knees to the head should be legal to reward the person who either stuffed the shoot or forced their opponent to roll over.

[YouKnowWho]

But there is also that mentality that by learning a form, you are transformed into a fighter.
Unfortunately some CMA masters still believe in this even when they get old.

Knowing how to do it and being able to do it are two different things. It takes many years of hard work to transfer knowledge from your brain onto your body. Old CMA saying said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs are no longer be yours (your body won't be able to response quickly as needed)".

CMA is 2 persons art and not "solo" art.

[Ray Pina]

I honestly think Ba Gua should not be studied until one is already a competent fighter. There are a lot of heady principles, with the coiling and uncoiling, etc.

A fighter will take these principles and add them to his arsenal, find ways to generate power where as before he had to pull back to reload.... it's not such a difference chambering at the waist and needing to pull the fist back in order to throw it back out with power. Not having to do that is an advantage.

However, doing so against a game opponent is another story. Too many Internal Principle Heads walking around demonstrating in the air, against students and awed onlookers. The ones I know have never had their abilities truly challenged.

10 years studying single palm change.... in that time you could become a fierce BJJ player or boxer. A real high level guy that can step outside of his world and play competently with other stylists.

[Ray Pina]

Another thing about these long learning curves:

Aside from being terribly romantic ("It takes 10 years to train X) it lines the instructors pockets with sucker money. Imagine a music instructor or soccer coach or any other field where the instructor kept you focused in one specific area of study for 3, 5,7 years?

Just batting in baseball. One chord on the violin.... you show me a coach/student combo working on just that for half a decade and I'll show you two crazy people.

Why are traditional martial artists such suckers?

[dimethylsea]

I honestly think Ba Gua should not be studied until one is already a competent fighter. There are a lot of heady principles, with the coiling and uncoiling, etc.


Ray,
There is an underlying assumption here that "fighting" is the ultimate goal. I have students that are not and NEVER WILL be fighters. They train with me because bagua helps them (be physically able to) go to work and earn a living to support their families. Or they train with me because it's a coping mechanism for their own stress issues. Most of them train with me because it's fun. I encourage them to fight, but that is not part of the life-path of alot of folks. The second you start talking about "fighting" as the be-all and end-all judgement criteria on which good or bad training is measured.. then you lose 80% of the students. Fighting as "part" of it is much more acceptable though (and in time.. maybe they will develop a taste for it).



10 years studying single palm change.... in that time you could become a fierce BJJ player or boxer. A real high level guy that can step outside of his world and play competently with other stylists.

In 10 years of studying good bagua (honestly even Gao Yi-Sheng said *to h*ll with it" after 3 years of single palm change) will have garnered the hard worker many benefits from their practice. They will likely be a better, more healthy human. They will be subtle thinkers and they will have stuff they can practice till they die and not risk injury or debilitation from their beloved art.

10 year of studying BJJ? Injuries, bad attitudes and close-mindedness (although I will grant this one is part of alot of bagua people also). Most people will never make 10 years into BJJ, they will get hurt competing or training to compete. Plus they will have to deal with and be around BJJ people. This is the worst!

10 years of boxing? Hmm.. this one is a much better bargain I think. Lots of solo work that can be done, boxers tend to have a good attitude, it's not horribly expensive like BJJ. Boxers don't usually think they possess Supreme Ultimate Power, they just know what they know. The head injuries issue shouldn't be too bad if you stay an amateur and keep your headgear on. Physical fitness, fighting skills.. it's all there. I encourage all my people to get as firm a grasp on the "sweet science" as they have the stomach, liver, and chin for.

[mawali]

Maybe it is the US penchant for exaggeration or inabibity to research a foreign import like baquazhang/baquaquan but from what I learnt walking the circle, it was always more than just that! At the same time you would doing jibengong and shenfa of the 'style variant' with shuai, na, etc and roushou.

Anyone who does or claims to walk the circle for x years and doing nothing else is being cheated big time and he would appear not to have a clue to his madness!

[Ray Pina]

All good points. I have to admit my prejudice, my mind ultimately looks for the martial advantage and disadvantage. I think there is great material there physically, spiritually and mentally. Lots of different roads and feet to walk them.

[Knifefighter]

In 10 years of studying bagua, the large majority of people will likely have a very unrealistic idea regarding their actual fighting skills, as well as being clueless about systems that actually develop real abilities.

Fixed that post there for ya buddy.

[Frost]

Ray,
There is an underlying assumption here that "fighting" is the ultimate goal. I have students that are not and NEVER WILL be fighters. They train with me because bagua helps them (be physically able to) go to work and earn a living to support their families. Or they train with me because it's a coping mechanism for their own stress issues. Most of them train with me because it's fun. I encourage them to fight, but that is not part of the life-path of alot of folks. The second you start talking about "fighting" as the be-all and end-all judgement criteria on which good or bad training is measured.. then you lose 80% of the students. Fighting as "part" of it is much more acceptable though (and in time.. maybe they will develop a taste for it).



10 year of studying BJJ? Injuries, bad attitudes and close-mindedness (although I will grant this one is part of alot of bagua people also). Most people will never make 10 years into BJJ, they will get hurt competing or training to compete. Plus they will have to deal with and be around BJJ people. This is the worst!


Jesus 1990 is calling and wants this thread back, 10 years of BJJ will not lead to injuries, bad attitudes and close-mindedness anymore than studying any art for that length will.

In fact those that stick with a competitive sport for that long will normally be quite open minded and have a very healthy attitude, competition breeds open mindedness (you want any advantage over your opponent no matter where you learn it from). And over the 10 years you will have tapped out enough to know you are not that great or wonderful, those that don’t regularly compete will never know just how humbling it actually is.

And I know a number of people that study BJJ/grappling and MMA for fitness and stress relief and never want to actually have a pro fight. They study it because it’s fun, safe and helps them stay fit and active. Chinese arts don’t have the monopoly on these types of students

[goju]

Fixed that post there for ya buddy.

youve extended your crack potness to the other threads now?:D

[Frost]

well the real crab style that archie moore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATaP2TyF9U) fought out of was a movable thing, it involved parrying & head movement in addition to the guard.

crazy monkey mighta been a bad example; as in addition to the guard, you do try to parry a little bit with your elbows.

the "shelling" that I'm talking about is putting your gloves on your forehead, digging your elbows into your ribs and just trying to hold that structure while the other guy tees off on you. It's something they teach you at the beginning in boxing to counter a guy flurrying on you, but it's kind of a "last resort" thing. basically what the dude in the white wife beater's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrYo9Itxd9M) doing the first half of this vid

Crazy monkey has a lot more to it than just the shell and arm sliding (as you pointed out). People see the first part of the drill (usually on the net) and assume that is the whole process (I am not talking about pork chop here but rather the people he is talking about, those you see just standing there adsorbing the shots ala Tito against chuck).

I know from experience that crazy monkey only starts off with the shell and arm slides over the head, then you add in modified slipping and stepping to enable you to counter punch effectively. I tend to see crazy monkey and shelling as a great way to teach someone new how to deal with strikes and get into the clinch without taking too many hits, especially if they are primarily grapplers or don’t have the time to learn striking; it’s a nice safe effective way to teach people a tight defence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most internal MA should be done after someone has done a few years of external MA, just my view.
RE:
Crazy Monkey, Rodney's stuff is nothing new per say, its been around in MT and Kali ( for example) for ages, nevertheless Rodney does some great stuff with it.
Its an error to view it as a defensive game, though it certainly can be used as one in a last resort.
No one likes to be a punching bag so I don't think anyone cares to use it in that way.
Most "shielding" techniques are never done "on the ropes", though it tends to be there that they are used, they are supposed to be done with footwork and evasive manuvering and in the case of FMA and MT, with "limb destruction" ( elbow to oncoming fest for example).

[Frost]

True I think people see it as a defensive game because that is the phase he teaches first, to get you comfortable with someone hitting you and to build a good defensive base, but that is as you point out just the start of the process. You then learn to use it in conjunction with footwork and modified slipping/ducking to create angles to hit off and throw power punches off both hands. But too many people only see glimpses of it so assume it is purely defensive.

From personal experience using the CM structure in defence and offence seems to enable me to hit without getting hit so often, and to enter the clinch without taking too much damage, (but then my boxing always sucked:()

And using the elbows to destroy fists, (especially in a no glove environment) is nasty, hell even with mma gloves catching the elbow sucks:(

[Ray Pina]

There is a fine line of foolishness between alleviating stress and walking in a circle for 10 years building allusions of grandeur of even martial competency, let alone supremacy.

All martial arts are intended for combat. That is their aim and reason for being.

I can use my car to store many things. I can go in there and turn on the radio and have a party. I can sleep on the roof. Only when I turn it on, put it in gear, remove the break and give it gas am I driving and the car is performing its function.

I have an electric guitar which I crank to 11 and jam out with all these effects. To me, when I'm high, it sounds good.... I do not consider myself a musician. That is a serious life practice.

I would certainly be careful with the way I dance around the martial world. Because it's not a pretty one. Lots of egos. Lots of guys trying to get up by pushing you down. In short, it's a fighters world. And lots of fighters are messed up people. That's why they fight.

I'm not saying this about all fighters. I know lots of good, cool ones too. Just saying. You have to know your place. Its not like 10 years ago. You start talking crazy at a gathering there's a chance someone with some real experience can be there and drop you right on your head.

I can never understand training martial arts and not be absolutely possessed about being the best fighter you can be..... what the fu(k does it feel like being in class? Like sitting on the beach with a board but not going surfing? To sit on the side of the playground with the ball just dribbling but never taking a shot?

Man, my advice to you is bring some boxing gloves and a mouth piece to your next practice and get to work. You and your training partners have A LOT of work to do. Get your $hit in gear. What are you doing? Are you going to be the one that embarassas Ba Gua? To train in a system and claim it is an honor. Go visit a real BJJ club. Guys are fighting their way up in rank everyday, proving to themselves and the guys they train with they deserve their rank.

Walk in a circle for 10 years? To relieve stress???? A good thai kick to your leg will remove any drama of the day, believe me.

Martial arts training is about developing the qualities of a warrior while remaining a gentlemen. Number one on the list is the ability to remain brave and do what is right while facing physical threat.... I've seen so many CMA guys die that quiet death from just not having the sack or ability to step up. Walking in a circle will not develop that.

[lkfmdc]

To people who always talk about martial arts for health and spiritual cultivation I must always remind them that this was a very late development, never the intended purpose.... Martial arts were about fighting, and one might argue should remain at least partially about it or what is the point?

If you are JUSt looking for spiritual awakening, esoteric "fun" or health you have Yoga, Zen meditation, Chi Kung, Pilates, etc.....

But finally, I always go back to the same point. While there is nothing wrong with being CONSCIOUSLY AWARE that you are doing something "just for health" I would argue instead that most people delude themselves into thinking that because what they are doing is a "martial art" then they are learning in part how to fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've had this debate more often that I care to remember, it seems to me that those that, on some level or another, are concsious that their MA training is NOT combat applicable, have resided to the notion that, at least it has some exercise/mental health benefits.
As long as they don't delude themselves or others, I am fine with that.
But as someone once said:
"MA, for health? spirituality?
There are many more types of activity that are far healthier and there is nothing spiritual about making a fist and punching "someone".
Then again, true health pursuits and spiritual pursuits don't let you dress up in a kooky get up and pretend you are Bruce lee, Jackie Chan or Jet Li."

[lkfmdc]

People who play raquet ball never have the delusion that they could pick up that raquet and fight off an army of 12 guys with knives, yet I know quite a few "I do martial arts for health" types who have made off hand remarks about how "well, I do martial arts" as if that means they can fight

There IS a larp'ing element here. And at times it has serious consequences, I remember a 105 lb woman who was a POINT FIGHTING and kata champion who thought that made her a "fighter". She was known to tell men off in bars and threaten them and announce "I am a black belt!". She told friends she feared noting because "I am a sparring champion". She was found dead in a ditch by the side of the road :(

[Drake]

Not trying to stir anything up here, but weren't a lot of the shaolin arts, at the beginning, more of a fitness regimen than a fighting style? I'm just sayin'...

[sanjuro_ronin]

People who play raquet ball never have the delusion that they could pick up that raquet and fight off an army of 12 guys with knives, yet I know quite a few "I do martial arts for health" types who have made off hand remarks about how "well, I do martial arts" as if that means they can fight

There IS a larp'ing element here. And at times it has serious consequences, I remember a 105 lb woman who was a POINT FIGHTING and kata champion who thought that made her a "fighter". She was known to tell men off in bars and threaten them and announce "I am a black belt!". She told friends she feared noting because "I am a sparring champion". She was found dead in a ditch by the side of the road :(

True story or anecdote?

[lkfmdc]

Not trying to stir anything up here, but weren't a lot of the shaolin arts, at the beginning, more of a fitness regimen than a fighting style? I'm just sayin'...

the dirty truth that no one wants to talk about is the fact that in the past, REAL monks seldom did "martial arts" ... it wasn't a Buddhist activity. Most of the martial arts being practiced in ANY monastery (not just Shaolin) were done by laymen, often fugitives from the law or "retired" criminals/murders who always had the option of retiring to the monastery as opposed to facing the "justice" of the court

Or, you have "monks" who did practice martial arts, for SELF DEFENSE, it indeed to fight...

IE, monks weren't doing martial arts for spiritual reasons

[Drake]

You can't very well iron palm a bullet, I suppose.

[lkfmdc]

True story or anecdote?

100% true story, she was an ATA black belt (Taekwondo)

[sanjuro_ronin]

100% true story, she was an ATA black belt (Taekwondo)

That is quite sad.

[lkfmdc]

You can't very well iron palm a bullet, I suppose.

"boards don't hit back"

but a 2 by 4 can come in useful :D

[Drake]

the dirty truth that no one wants to talk about is the fact that in the past, REAL monks seldom did "martial arts" ... it wasn't a Buddhist activity. Most of the martial arts being practiced in ANY monastery (not just Shaolin) were done by laymen, often fugitives from the law or "retired" criminals/murders who always had the option of retiring to the monastery as opposed to facing the "justice" of the court

Or, you have "monks" who did practice martial arts, for SELF DEFENSE, it indeed to fight...

IE, monks weren't doing martial arts for spiritual reasons

Doesn't the story go that Bodhidharma came to the temple, saw that all the monks were disgusting fatties, and started coming up with routines so that they could actually get into shape?

And what about the old story that the fighting arts also came from merchants who got attacked by evil, nasty bandits in the mountains and had to learn how to defend themselves?

[lkfmdc]

That is quite sad.

yes, but worse yet, this happened more than a decade ago, and yet it was not the wake up call it should have been....

the news angle was "black belt killed" with all the hype and BS of typical local news casts

[David Jamieson]

Shaolin monks have been involved in martial arts for some time.

as is pointed out in M Shahars recent book, the shaolin had a manual on use of staff in combat dating from the early 1500's.

It is acknowledged by others outside of shaolin, namely a general or two as being the best examples of training the long staff for combat.

so, it is best to not try and redact the idea of martial monks. Yes they have been extant for a long time.

p.s it is also noted in several historical documents that shaolin monks in particular were involved in martial practices such as boxing and weapon use since the Tang dynasty (700's -) although to be fair, there are no manuals from that time.

It is generally accepted that codified martial arts practice has been extant there since at least teh tang dynasty. It is also accepted that the 5 animal frolics qigongs went through there and were possibly, next to the 2 premier classics of muscle/tendon change and bone marrow washing, used for bringing physical balance to the monks who otherwise sat in meditation for extended periods of time.

[Drake]

"boards don't hit back"

but a 2 by 4 can come in useful :D


Reminds me of a time when I was younger, and broke one over a vicious dog's head. 2 minutes later I was up in a tree nursing a bite wound.

[lkfmdc]

Doesn't the story go .......



story, legend, myth, lie.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

"boards don't hit back"

but a 2 by 4 can come in useful :D

Anyone that has ever tried to break something and doesn't knows, BOARDS DO HIT BACK !!
LOL !

[Drake]

story, legend, myth, lie.....

Then what actually happened, then?

[lkfmdc]

but seriously,

monks doing chi kung and/or yoga to stay strong so they can meditate, YES

monks doing broadsword and whip chain as a spiritual practice :rolleyes:

[Drake]

but seriously,

monks doing chi kung and/or yoga to stay strong so they can meditate, YES

monks doing broadsword and whip chain as a spiritual practice :rolleyes:

That was the intent of Bodhidharma, though, according to the account I mentioned. They were too flabby and out of shape to meditate or even get daily chores done.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Warrior monks are nothing new, all history has them, from all over the world.
The was just NOTHING spritual about the MA practice, they did it to protect the assets of the monestary/religion or for religious expansion.
No spiritual motives behind it.

[lkfmdc]

try and follow along Jamieson, I know its hard for you at times :rolleyes:




Or, you have "monks" who did practice martial arts, for SELF DEFENSE, it indeed to fight...

IE, monks weren't doing martial arts for spiritual reasons

ergo


Shaolin monks have been involved in martial arts for some time.

as is pointed out in M Shahars recent book, the shaolin had a manual on use of staff in combat dating from the early 1500's.



In the real world, nasty people come to take the gold off your Buddha so you have to beat them off with sticks

[Lokhopkuen]

1) Buy Handgun!

2) Buy Ammo!

3) Practice shooting gun!

4) Practice drawing and then shooting gun!

5) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving!

6) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving behind and around obstacles!

7) Practice drawing and then shooting gun while moving behind and around obstacles at moving targets!

8) Shoot Martial Artist who is annoying you with his EEEEEyyyowwwww sounds!:)

Handguns are for sissies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN4GlNZB1-g):D

[lkfmdc]

Warrior monks are nothing new, all history has them, from all over the world.
The was just NOTHING spritual about the MA practice, they did it to protect the assets of the monestary/religion or for religious expansion.
No spiritual motives behind it.

this.....

(again)

[Drake]

Try firing a handgun while moving and see how accurate you are. I'll admit, one of the biggest shocks for me was when I joined the military and found out how rarely you actually hit what you are shooting at. Especially at 300m with an M16A2.

[lkfmdc]

That was the intent of Bodhidharma, though, according to the account I mentioned. They were too flabby and out of shape to meditate or even get daily chores done.

Damo is credited with Yi Jin Ching, more akin to Yoga than martial art

[Drake]

Damo is credited with Yi Jin Ching, more akin to Yoga than martial art


This is what happens when you write all of the important stuff on untreated wood tables.

[Lokhopkuen]

There is a fine line of foolishness between alleviating stress and walking in a circle for 10 years building allusions of grandeur of even martial competency, let alone supremacy.

All martial arts are intended for combat. That is their aim and reason for being.

I can use my car to store many things. I can go in there and turn on the radio and have a party. I can sleep on the roof. Only when I turn it on, put it in gear, remove the break and give it gas am I driving and the car is performing its function.

I have an electric guitar which I crank to 11 and jam out with all these effects. To me, when I'm high, it sounds good.... I do not consider myself a musician. That is a serious life practice.

I would certainly be careful with the way I dance around the martial world. Because it's not a pretty one. Lots of egos. Lots of guys trying to get up by pushing you down. In short, it's a fighters world. And lots of fighters are messed up people. That's why they fight.

I'm not saying this about all fighters. I know lots of good, cool ones too. Just saying. You have to know your place. Its not like 10 years ago. You start talking crazy at a gathering there's a chance someone with some real experience can be there and drop you right on your head.

I can never understand training martial arts and not be absolutely possessed about being the best fighter you can be..... what the fu(k does it feel like being in class? Like sitting on the beach with a board but not going surfing? To sit on the side of the playground with the ball just dribbling but never taking a shot?

Man, my advice to you is bring some boxing gloves and a mouth piece to your next practice and get to work. You and your training partners have A LOT of work to do. Get your $hit in gear. What are you doing? Are you going to be the one that embarassas Ba Gua? To train in a system and claim it is an honor. Go visit a real BJJ club. Guys are fighting their way up in rank everyday, proving to themselves and the guys they train with they deserve their rank.

Walk in a circle for 10 years? To relieve stress???? A good thai kick to your leg will remove any drama of the day, believe me.

Martial arts training is about developing the qualities of a warrior while remaining a gentlemen. Number one on the list is the ability to remain brave and do what is right while facing physical threat.... I've seen so many CMA guys die that quiet death from just not having the sack or ability to step up. Walking in a circle will not develop that.

Well formed.
Well thought.
Well said.

[Lokhopkuen]

Try firing a handgun while moving and see how accurate you are. I'll admit, one of the biggest shocks for me was when I joined the military and found out how rarely you actually hit what you are shooting at. Especially at 300m with an M16A2.

That's why they invented the full auto setting:D

[Drake]

:D
That's why they invented the full auto setting:D


And promptly got rid of it. :D

What they found was that if you weren't hitting the target after the 3rd round, you probably weren't going to hit it with the 10th, 20th, or 40th round either. We wasted a crapload of ammo in Vietnam due to this.

Of course, crew-served (M240B, M249, MK-19 and M2) are all suppressive/ruin your day weapons, so they actually work best in full auto. Just don't forget the ghost round and your headspace and timing.

[Ray Pina]

People who play raquet ball never have the delusion that they could pick up that raquet and fight off an army of 12 guys with knives, yet I know quite a few "I do martial arts for health" types who have made off hand remarks about how "well, I do martial arts" as if that means they can fight

There IS a larp'ing element here. And at times it has serious consequences, I remember a 105 lb woman who was a POINT FIGHTING and kata champion who thought that made her a "fighter". She was known to tell men off in bars and threaten them and announce "I am a black belt!". She told friends she feared noting because "I am a sparring champion". She was found dead in a ditch by the side of the road :(

Something that woke me up early on as a kid, was twin brother karate class mates were killed with pipes and then had their heads run over by a van. I was about 8 or 9.

Those kids always fooled around in class. Their parents made them be there. You could tell.

That's not why they're dead. They were just kids. And I never knew the whole story.

But training.... either do it or don't. But if you do it, do it right. And there's lots of right ways... and you know it when you think you're doing it. Then go look around, and you might be surprised.

Good signs:
Sometimes it hurts when you wake up
You accidently hurt a training partner... because you're just explosive and strong
Your gi or clothes are drenched after every practice.... that's the biggest one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's why they invented the full auto setting:D

Never bothered with it on any firearm I have ever used.
One bullet has always been enough for me.

[TenTigers]

Good signs:
Sometimes it hurts when you wake up
You accidently hurt a training partner... because you're just explosive and strong
Your gi or clothes are drenched after every practice.... that's the biggest one.
that about sums it up

[David Jamieson]

monks did the postures/ physical practices for spiritual purposes as well.

knowing that spiritual creatures such as demons and their ilk did not reside in our plane of perception, there were indeed practices that were used to create change in the spiritual world.

these practices were indeed physical. (generally in the form of dance that was all too often quite martial in content and intent with performance)

If you recall, the idea of shutting the gates of hell with incantation, physical acted spells and so on.

It's a huge subject, but to write it (martial practices) off as merely protecting assets is egregious.

Yes, that was part of it, but not the whole of it.

just sayin...

[sanjuro_ronin]

monks did the postures/ physical practices for spiritual purposes as well.

knowing that spiritual creatures such as demons and their ilk did not reside in our plane of perception, there were indeed practices that were used to create change in the spiritual world.

these practices were indeed physical. (generally in the form of dance that was all too often quite martial in content and intent with performance)

If you recall, the idea of shutting the gates of hell with incantation, physical acted spells and so on.

It's a huge subject, but to write it (martial practices) off as merely protecting assets is egregious.

Yes, that was part of it, but not the whole of it.

just sayin...

It is of some debate as to what proceeded what.
Some argue that the martial proceeded the spiritual, while others argue the reverse, either way, the spiritual WAS martial in application and intent, something that is NOT the case nowadays.

[bawang]

i saw on youtube an old hongquan guy said "without the fighting chinese amrtial arts have no reason for existance" its deep
i live in a modern lifestyle and i have no time to devote to martial arts 10 hours a day, im not a martial artist,and i dont do it for spiritua things. i would feel embarrased if i tell people i do martial arts
im no good and i only practice the basics for 3 years, i stopped doing forms and fancy advanced things 3 yrs ago srsly

[TenTigers]

Martial Arts were practiced (in temples) before Boddhidarma, and were also practiced at other temples-where Boddhidarma did not have any influence.
So, it's a nice story.....nothing more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Martial Arts were practiced (in temples) before Boddhidarma, and were also practiced at other temples-where Boddhidarma did not have any influence.
So, it's a nice story.....nothing more.

Indeed, look at the case of India.

[bawang]

i think chinese people invented chinese martial arts not indians. indians invented indian martial arts

[TenTigers]

Boddhidarma is credited with bringing Chan or Siem (zen) Buddhism and a form of yoga/qigong to China. The rest stem from exaggerated stories and tales about heroic Shaolin Monks, and Kwai Chang-Caine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think chinese people invented chinese martial arts not indians. indians invented indian martial arts

No really the point Bro.
The point was that long before there was Budidharma there were "warrior monks".

[bawang]

No really the point Bro.
The point was that long before there was Budidharma there were "warrior monks".

thats true

Another thing about these long learning curves:

Aside from being terribly romantic ("It takes 10 years to train X) it lines the instructors pockets with sucker money.
one day im going to teach kung fu for free mebbe in 10 or 20 yrs
its up to the next generation of kung fu ppls to stop the money making mentality

[David Jamieson]

thats true

one day im going to teach kung fu for free
its up to next generation of kung fu ppls to stop the money making mentality

There are a few teachers who will give of their time and knowledge without expecting money.

But, it's a vicious circle, because there are all sorts of people who want to be students but aren't satisfied unless they pay a lot which in turn is how they value things in their lives and even if they walk away with nothing, they think they have some skills because they paid for them.

which of course is laughable.

Reciprocity is required in my opinion. It needn't be money, but if your agreement is to do the hard work, then you should do it and your teacher should kick your ass to the curb at teh first sign of you dogging it on that sort of agreement.

when it comes to money, it is my opinion that the whole lot of us are confused as to what it is worth and how it equates to things.

Not many people have a logical and sensible view of money. If they did, the entire economy wouldn't run on credit and people wouldn't be complaining about predatory lenders and instead they would be out their working for their money and not spending what they don't have.

Unfortunately, it is demonstrable that the greater majority of us are not quite "with it" when it comes to understanding money.

this maps across to how we devalue things based on price taggery.

Kungfu lessons included.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a few teachers who will give of their time and knowledge without expecting money.

But, it's a vicious circle, because there are all sorts of people who want to be students but aren't satisfied unless they pay a lot which in turn is how they value things in their lives and even if they walk away with nothing, they think they have some skills because they paid for them.

which of course is laughable.

Reciprocity is required in my opinion. It needn't be money, but if your agreement is to do the hard work, then you should do it and your teacher should kick your ass to the curb at teh first sign of you dogging it on that sort of agreement.

when it comes to money, it is my opinion that the whole lot of us are confused as to what it is worth and how it equates to things.

Not many people have a logical and sensible view of money. If they did, the entire economy wouldn't run on credit and people wouldn't be complaining about predatory lenders and instead they would be out their working for their money and not spending what they don't have.

Unfortunately, it is demonstrable that the greater majority of us are not quite "with it" when it comes to understanding money.

this maps across to how we devalue things based on price taggery.

Kungfu lessons included.

yeah, the economy of this world is based on credit, you can't buy anything of any substance without it, just a fact of life.

[Lokhopkuen]

Never bothered with it on any firearm I have ever used.
One bullet has always been enough for me.

When Chuck Norris hears your name he wets himself U so bad:cool:

[Lokhopkuen]

:D


And promptly got rid of it. :D

What they found was that if you weren't hitting the target after the 3rd round, you probably weren't going to hit it with the 10th, 20th, or 40th round either. We wasted a crapload of ammo in Vietnam due to this.

Of course, crew-served (M240B, M249, MK-19 and M2) are all suppressive/ruin your day weapons, so they actually work best in full auto. Just don't forget the ghost round and your headspace and timing.

Yea but oh the feeling of fu@king off 30 rounds of good ole' made right here in America ammunition;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

When Chuck Norris hears your name he wets himself U so bad:cool:

Not true, Chuck once ate a crate of .50 caliber rounds, he then crapped them out in one salvo that created the Grand Canyon, this was the first ever use of "rail gun" technology.
Shooting Chuck Norris only makes him scratch.

[Drake]

Yea but oh the feeling of fu@king off 30 rounds of good ole' made right here in America ammunition;)


I prefer to get my rocks off on the Ma Deuce :D

[Ray Pina]

:D

Just don't forget the ghost round and your headspace and timing.

Can you explain this?

[Drake]

Can you explain this?


A ghost round is where there is no round in the breech for the first trigger pull. What this does is set up the cycling process for the larger crew served weapons. You'll see this on the M2 and MK-19.

Headspace and timing are setting required when you install the barrel on the M2. There's a tool you use to find out how many "clicks" you need to rotate the barrel to ensure proper functioning of the weapon.

[Drake]

In other words...first trigger pull, nothing happens. Second trigger pull, fun for the whole family.

[dimethylsea]

Jesus 1990 is calling and wants this thread back, 10 years of BJJ will not lead to injuries, bad attitudes and close-mindedness anymore than studying any art for that length will.


Gotta disagree. My personal experience is that people training grappling seriously for competition or promotion (which usually requires competition) tend to collect injuries fairly regular. We constantly had people in recovery when I was around the MMA crowd.



In fact those that stick with a competitive sport for that long will normally be quite open minded and have a very healthy attitude, competition breeds open mindedness (you want any advantage over your opponent no matter where you learn it from). And over the 10 years you will have tapped out enough to know you are not that great or wonderful, those that don’t regularly compete will never know just how humbling it actually is.


They tend to have an attitude that anything that works in their paradigm is good to go, and anything outside it is just not on the radar and is ignored. There are plenty of exceptions of course.. but I'd say that the big picture is pretty clear. Again this is based on my personal experience with MMA folks, being good friends with them, training their arts and teaching out of their schools. Competition breeds open-mindedness towards things that work in competition and that's as far as it goes.



And I know a number of people that study BJJ/grappling and MMA for fitness and stress relief and never want to actually have a pro fight. They study it because it’s fun, safe and helps them stay fit and active. Chinese arts don’t have the monopoly on these types of students

No Chinese martial arts certainly doesn't have a monopoly on this. Some people do train MMA for fun and fitness, but they seldom have the motivation to become the "big name" types or to wind up running their own gym. I have known a few.. but the majority of the people I've met who run MMA gyms are the worst fusion of a Dana White personality and have the manners of a hooligan or gang member if they don't have the "sales face" on.

Like I said.. there are plenty of exceptions. My best martial arts friend is a pro-MMA fighter. He would wipe the floor with me emptyhanded any day of the week. He's a very nice guy.. I love him like a brother.. but he understands less about what I do than vice versa.

[dimethylsea]

Man, my advice to you is bring some boxing gloves and a mouth piece to your next practice and get to work. You and your training partners have A LOT of work to do. Get your $hit in gear. What are you doing? Are you going to be the one that embarassas Ba Gua? To train in a system and claim it is an honor. Go visit a real BJJ club. Guys are fighting their way up in rank everyday, proving to themselves and the guys they train with they deserve their rank.


I don't think this was aimed at me.. but I'd like to remind you Ray.. that some people in bagua are "Been There Done That" on the gloves, mouthpiece and BJJ angle.
Heck I started teaching out of a MMA gym. BJJ is great. If it weren't for the personalities it would be even better. The problem is that in TMA the attitudes of the MAists in question don't usually require that you trust them not to blow out your joints while rolling at the end of class.



Walk in a circle for 10 years? To relieve stress???? A good thai kick to your leg will remove any drama of the day, believe me.


A good thai kick is a wonderful thing.. I am thankful to my brother coaches who gave me the bits of Thai I know.. including those wonderful leg kicks. But people cope with stress in various ways. Some people can relieve their stress with Thai. I did/do that. Wonderful exercise. Other people need something different to engage them fully. Bagua can be just the ticket for SOME of those folks.




Martial arts training is about developing the qualities of a warrior while remaining a gentlemen. .

I agree with this 200%!!! And the MMA people I've met who are true gentleman are among the finest exponents of martial arts presently alive IMO.

[Ray Pina]

A ghost round is where there is no round in the breech for the first trigger pull. What this does is set up the cycling process for the larger crew served weapons. You'll see this on the M2 and MK-19.

Headspace and timing are setting required when you install the barrel on the M2. There's a tool you use to find out how many "clicks" you need to rotate the barrel to ensure proper functioning of the weapon.

Wow. The movies make it look so simple.

[Ray Pina]

From my experience, you have about 5% of guys in a BJJ or MMA crew that are competing hardcore. These guys are training too hard to care about any dramas. They're usually close knit and an inner group.... these guys do get injured. I tend to hurt my feet. In the past three years I have broken my clavicle and ribs (two years ago) and my right foot (8 months ago) and left foot (3 months ago). Jammed toes all the time. Sore is a way of life.

It happens when big boys are playing hard.

Then you have senior guys, both in age and in rank. They're usually super cool guys. They've done the fighting. They've learned the lessons on how to hurt and how to heal up and recover. These are guys that have trained and competed hurt. They've done it all.

The problem areas are the guys who are "into it" but not competitive enough to compete but competitive by nature so they turn getting to the water fountain into a contest. They usually charge right at you like a lunatic, to show you how tough and game they are. Some of these guys can be blow hards.... but they're the most fun to tap.

As for styles, I can say I've become a better fighter learning something from all of them, including internal. But the reason I had to leave the internal training environment was because there was too much talk, too much explanation and demonstration and self acceptance of things as they should be instead of live play to see results. And that can happen anywhere, but it was prevalent in internal.... the old ladies of Kung Fu. And that says a lot.

The seniors in MMA and BJJ have walked the walk. They had to. Someone competing in those forums wouldn't waste time training with phonies. And those men don't talk. They don't have to. There lives are a line of built reputation.

But what happens with these stress-fearing types is that they, like anyone else, want to be a member of the club. And why not? But they're not fighting. Many aren't even really training. They're improving their circulation, flexibility and breathing, but they aren't making themselves crisp weapons, explosive, violent beings.... so they talk. And they theorize. And they harmonize about the harmonies. And channels. And proper ways of doing this and that.... and hell, maybe they're even right! But when your bushed from training so hard and you know you can tear right through this strange talkative creature you just don't care. You pushed yourself as hard as you could again.

You know when someone is training. You see it right away.

[Frost]

[QUOTE=dimethylsea;958941]Gotta disagree. My personal experience is that people training grappling seriously for competition or promotion (which usually requires competition) tend to collect injuries fairly regular. We constantly had people in recovery when I was around the MMA crowd.

I didn’t say they wouldn’t lead to injuries, I said they won’t lead to any more injuries than any other art. Of course if you are competing hard you get injured, the same is true if you are a competitive Thai boxer, if you fight full contact taekwondo or compete in any martial art. My personal experience after switching to MMA/grappling after doing Chinese systems for a decade is that the injury rate amongst those that really compete/spar is about the same.



They tend to have an attitude that anything that works in their paradigm is good to go, and anything outside it is just not on the radar and is ignored. There are plenty of exceptions of course.. but I'd say that the big picture is pretty clear. Again this is based on my personal experience with MMA folks, being good friends with them, training their arts and teaching out of their schools. Competition breeds open-mindedness towards things that work in competition and that's as far as it goes.

I find competition breeds open-mindedness to what works period, a lot of the guys I know who do MMA/grappling also have an interest in self defence work/knife defence etc and they bring the same mentality to that, if it works in the environment then teach it to us. They seem to have less hang-ups about learning new things than the traditional guys I used to work with.


No Chinese martial arts certainly doesn't have a monopoly on this. Some people do train MMA for fun and fitness, but they seldom have the motivation to become the "big name" types or to wind up running their own gym. I have known a few.. but the majority of the people I've met who run MMA gyms are the worst fusion of a Dana White personality and have the manners of a hooligan or gang member if they don't have the "sales face" on.

And the majority of people who train at traditional schools don’t have the motivation to become the big name or open there own school either, what’s your point?

There are as*holes everywhere, my personal experience (like Rays) is that the good gyms are run by guys who have been there done that and as a result are very nice and easy going

[Drake]

Wow. The movies make it look so simple.

This stuff is all done before you go outside the wire... except the ghost round, depending on the rules. They normally roll out in RED status, which means the weapon is completely ready to fire (round in the chamber).

[sanjuro_ronin]

This stuff is all done before you go outside the wire... except the ghost round, depending on the rules. They normally roll out in RED status, which means the weapon is completely ready to fire (round in the chamber).

Don't forget tracer rounds too bro, just to be sure you know that your running out, LOL !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having been in TMA environments, in both TCMA and TJMA and been in BJJ and MT and sport combat environments I can say this:
Both have enough *******s to go around and neither has a monopoly on them, period.

[Ray Pina]

It could be argued that guys studying MMA are certainly more open minded.... chances are they expanded beyond what they were studying before, to find a way to train more inclusively.

Very few places can train you in everything. In fact, I have a coach for BJJ and I have a coach for boxing. I'm now looking for a place where I can at least kick box twice a week or even better spar MMA. Not so easy to find down here but it will be done.

You have to give MMA guys credit. It's not easy... especially when a fight is coming. It's like training hardcore in multiple sports. Just the conditioning alone is brutal.

This is also a point that I have seen lacking in CMA. I often encounter the attitude that their technique is so advanced, that they can be, well, literally out of shape.

Truth is, we're training our bodies to be weapons. Like any athlete, especially a competing one, you have to arrive with the best raw material. You need to be explosive, you need to have endurance, flexibility, the ability to go really hard but then grab some air and calm down in a very short time.... there's a lot of skill sets and abilities that need to be acquired.... just to get through training, sometimes.

Again, this isn't a diss CMA or TMA post. Just saying, don't let the juice heads ruin your view of a system of training.

I believe any stylist wishing to test his or her root and balance (I'm thinking Ba Gua) would benefit from stopping by a local BJJ or MMA club and just play throws. These guys literally do it for a living. And once you see how smooth and effortless they throw, you'll see the skill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Conditioning??
What is this "conditioning" that you speak of? is this the MMA version of Chi kung ??
:p

[Frost]

Ray raises a good point, just making it through a normal MMA or grappling class requires good conditioning, and if you are planning to complete in either then you have to add in extra workouts, it’s not optional it’s a must.

Normally if you see an out of shape grappler or MMA guy they are new or coming off a long lay off, where as the conditioning in a lot of traditional schools leaves a lot to be desired.

I always found it amusing that the best conditioned guys when I went to my kung fu school were the ones who competed in semi or full contact events, yet they were laughed at by the other students for not having traditional technique (and these guys were usually way out of shape).

On a side note the karate styles I trained in and the Korean ones were on the whole trained in by fairly fit strong students, where as the Chinese arts were populated by a lot of unfit people

[Drake]

Conditioning??
What is this "conditioning" that you speak of? is this the MMA version of Chi kung ??
:p

Body massage!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Body massage!

Trouble maker...

[Drake]

Trouble maker...

I would've left this site a looong time ago if it weren't for you...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would've left this site a looong time ago if it weren't for you...

Just for that

[Ray Pina]

So much comes down to conditioning.

Even a newbie that is strong, athletic and tough can be hard to tap. You have to maintain control and wear them down. Control the position and make them work. When they are tired, then they practically give you the submission just to get you off of them.

In fighting, when you are tired you will drop your hands and/or get sloppy... which will get you hit, hurt and scared. Creating more of the same until it just self implodes.

Fatigue makes cowards of us all.

You'd be surprised how many people are training REALLY hard. Martial arts, as we know it, is alive and evolving quick fast.... I noticed even the MMA gloves have evolved. I like the new 4 oz much better. They're more like a cover then a glove.

[Drake]

Just for that

which sure beats reading about how people are better than others because art x beats art y!

[sanjuro_ronin]

which sure beats reading about how people are better than others because art x beats art y!

That's just crazy talk, you need to spend more time in the WC forum !

[Drake]

That's just crazy talk, you need to spend more time in the WC forum !


I went there once. ONCE. And I ain't NEVER goin' back!

[lkfmdc]

he's not a trouble maker, he's more of a FRENCH MAID ;)

[Drake]

Yes... yes... **** those FRENCH MAIDS...


*waits for it*

[sanjuro_ronin]

he's not a trouble maker, he's more of a FRENCH MAID ;)

Some people.....

[Drake]

It's like a neverending torrent of hotness

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, at least I am keeping it clean, LOL !

[Drake]

**** you, Gene, for your silly, prudish rules! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

**** you, Gene, for your silly, prudish rules! :eek:

Its cool, its more of a challenge this way AND it keeps things soft, which is much better than the hard core crap, at least to me:

[Drake]

Its cool, its more of a challenge this way AND it keeps things soft, which is much better than the hard core crap, at least to me:

XXX is too much, really. But nips... nips should be ok... I mean... they ARE just nips!

[sanjuro_ronin]

XXX is too much, really. But nips... nips should be ok... I mean... they ARE just nips!

Fine, enjoy:

[David Jamieson]

Just for that

she looks like she needs to pee really bad.

in a sexy way of course.

:D

[SavvySavage]

Ba gua dude from emptyflower,
I can't spell your name. I disagree with your opinion of "discovering" new things while doing your single palm change drill. The drill can be used to train structure and possibly as a meditative and cultivating method and even a form of exercise that could help keep you fit into old age.. But to say that doing it gives you some sort of fighting skill is misleading especially for new students who don't know better.

What exactly does this drill teach? Please list the TANGIBLE benefits and skills. I'll list a few:

structure training, whole body connection, stretching of joints/muscles/meridians, massaging of organs for health. The last two are more for Chinese medicine and health people. But the first two are for people training to to develop skills. Now that you know what the drill can do you can develop TWO person drills and sparring drills using the two concepts I listed. Vertical and horizontal power can be trained through drills and should be. Pushing, punching, throwing.

[SavvySavage]

Good posts, Ray. Keep it coming.

I've heard my ba gua teacher say that bagua is about applying shapes to different situations and that you really can't spar with it. He meant that it won't look baguaish if you spar. What I say to that is this: How do you know you have any skill under pressure if "you can't spar" with it? It's all just pretend in a way then.

Ray,
I agree wih your statement about teachers demonstrating technique and not having their skills really tested. I've often wondered if some teachers could really do said technique if we were sparring. On the other hand I know of a teacher who used to street fight and is older now. He doesn't spar much and ONLY teaches by way of demo stration. When you're old you're old. Most teachers don't have his kind of experience.

Quick question, Ray. You've stated in the past that your old internal teacher still spars with golden gloves. What does one of these matches typically look like? Do hey both don gloves and other gear and go CRAZY on each other or is it just light sparring with little contact?

[Ray Pina]

Couple limitations I see in two person Ba Gua training, from my limited experience:


1) No one gives you their hand that way and leaves it out to have their weight and intention read.

2) No one circles with you that way.

I like Ba Gua's martial aims. I just think there are better ways to train them. Why do we see men pulling off Russian arm drags, bumping the underhook to take the back for big slams... because they are short, explosive movements pulled off in tight.

Very hard to get behind a man circling you at arms length. It's not realistic and wasn't intended to be that way. It was meant to turn the other guy mid-action, like the Russian Arm drag, up close.

[Ray Pina]

Do hey both don gloves and other gear and go CRAZY on each other or is it just light sparring with little contact?


I haven't seen my master in about four years unfortunately. When we sparred with gloves, and when others came to play, it was usually a quick closing of distance and me or the others receiving a heavy but controlled hand.

Shapes are important for our style, and I still use them all the time, even when western boxing. A big one I use most often is when using a right lead. I'll throw it out at an incoming strike but upon contact collapse it so it's perpendicular to my erect body, my chin pretty much hiding behind my elbow, though I'm not collapsed. Top of arm to elbow is pointed directly at what I'm shielding against. Arm bends 90 degrees across myself.

Then the back hand is across my chest , near the lead arm's shoulder, backing everything up. It creates a sort of + shield in front of my face and saves me all the time.

The trick is being offensive with it. Throw out the lead attack but then shield if he absorbs the attack and counters. Later you combine that with attacking his shield, pulling it down, etc.

Kind of hard to explain online but I did my best.

[dimethylsea]

Ba gua dude from emptyflower,

What exactly does this drill teach? Please list the TANGIBLE benefits and skills. I'll list a few:

structure training, whole body connection, stretching of joints/muscles/meridians, massaging of organs for health. The last two are more for Chinese medicine and health people. But the first two are for people training to to develop skills. Now that you know what the drill can do you can develop TWO person drills and sparring drills using the two concepts I listed. Vertical and horizontal power can be trained through drills and should be. Pushing, punching, throwing.

Structure training and whole body connection are both very important. I think that variants of single palm change teach the following things (which I am going to list in no particular order). It should be said that other drills or movements can teach some of these.. but one won't get the "bagua flavor" by doing those (very valid) things.. just by doing single palm change.

1. Learning to "Default" to keeping the arms with approximately 50-70 degrees in either direction of your personal center line, unless there is a good tactical reason not to.
2. Learning to keep the eyes level and the head upright, unless there is a good tactical reason not to (sometimes tucking the chin is a Very Good Thing!).
3. Learning to change both the palms to the up position or the down position simultaneously, followed by SPC variants where one is up, the other is down, then they swap.
4. Learn to turn the waist in coordination with rotational motion in the forearms and fingers. I.e. the waist gets 5% turn (just for instance), which means I need 30% in the forearms and 70% in the fingertips.
5. Learn to do all of the above turning WITHOUT letting your head move, unless there is a good tactical reason to do so.
6. Learn to keep the "active hand" within about 20 degrees of center line, while keeping it fixed in your gaze, unless there is a good tactical reason not to.
7. Learning to maintain inward power to the elbows and activate the back, while managing to turn through the elbows (this one is a pain).
8. Learning to keep the change in elbow joint angle as small and deliberate as possible. Figuring out how to get the hands in the right place tactically by rotating the arms and moving things further down the body than the shoulders.

That's just what springs to mind right off hand.

One thing I would point out is that "Single Palm Change" is not a single drill. It's a collection of practices that can be done different ways.
There is the San Fan Zhang or three overturning palms which are very simple "change the lead hand" type SPC variants. One is straight-line, one is circular, one is circular and overhead. All these are SPC. They can be done with stationary feet, with linear (forward, backward, angling) footwork, or with the circle walking footwork.
This is a brief clip of the simplest fan zhang done in the simplest way (stationary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtXpReK-6g
There is alot of the back power and the Ba Gang missing from this (it's an older clip).

Then when we talk about SPC on the circle there are (basically) four variants of this that most (I won't say all) of the "official" SPC forms the various bagua schools do can be found in.

1. "Simple" Single Palm Change. This is the exercise I was doing in the clip, except that it's done while circle walking. Yin Style "Piercing palm change" or "San Chuan Zhang" (3 borings) is in the class of SPC. It uses an inside k'ou bu, then an outside bai bu.
2. "Outside" SPC. This is the circle fan zhang done with a outside k'ou bu, and an inward bai bu. You turn to the outside of the circle and walk the other way.
3. "Lower" SPC. This is similar to "simple SPC" but you drop down lower. Basically it's a SPC with a height change of some kind.
4. "Complex" or "Standard" SPC - These are all the variants that use an inner k'ou bu, and outer bai bu and then "add" something (usually an outside kou bu). This is the "Single Palm Change" most people learn as part of their "official style" set.

Please note #4 is the "official" one most people learn and talk about as "The" Single Palm Change for their school.. but there is WAY more to Single Palm Change than this. That's how all the various schools can do "different" SPC forms.. and not be all wrong except one.

If someone is learning Single Palm Change in all it's variations and preparatory practices.. you could spend years learning it. I did. It was fun. It still is. :D

[dimethylsea]

Couple limitations I see in two person Ba Gua training, from my limited experience:


1) No one gives you their hand that way and leaves it out to have their weight and intention read.

2) No one circles with you that way.

I like Ba Gua's martial aims. I just think there are better ways to train them. Why do we see men pulling off Russian arm drags, bumping the underhook to take the back for big slams... because they are short, explosive movements pulled off in tight.

Very hard to get behind a man circling you at arms length. It's not realistic and wasn't intended to be that way. It was meant to turn the other guy mid-action, like the Russian Arm drag, up close.

Ray you are saying some good things in this post. Alot of the "official" two-man choreography is mainly something done for smoothness and coordination. It's not (in my estimation) the best way to really teach how to use bagua martially.

My belief is that you have to crash in, moving forward very aggressively, while looking for the opportunity to adhere/stick and "turn them off". Most bagua people have not considered or researched how they are going to get to clinch range. And they have not done enough free play to realize this is a serious issue.

The standard Gao response is "Always attack first". If they throw up that hand and (as you put it) "leave it out to have their weight and intention read" then good for me. If they don't.. keep crashing forward and keep attacking.

That "leave it out to have their weight and intention read" is a product of too many generations of bagua people not going out and banging out with the neighbors who don't do bagua or xingyi. That's how bagua people fight bagua people. Cautiously. Suitable for challenges with your relations inside the style.

But trying to fight a thai boxer that way? Painful would be the least of it for the poor bagua dude.

[Ray Pina]

My favorite lessons from walking the circle all have to do with kicking.

[goju]

of course baguas not going to look like the fight seen in "the one" when applied nor was it intended to

i think peoples comcept of tma has been watered down by preformance wushu and movies
if you look at any tma form and apllication its simple and direct

novel g.bell i believe was his name was on the shortlived mma series the iron ring and he demonstrated some of his fighting methods from i think it was yin or yin fu bagua zhang and all the techniques he showed were superfast and to the point:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course baguas not going to look like the fight seen in "the one" when applied nor was it intended to

i think peoples comcept of tma has been watered down by preformance wushu and movies
if you look at any tma form and apllication its simple and direct

novel g.bell i believe was his name was on the shortlived mma series the iron ring and he demonstrated some of his fighting methods from i think it was yin or yin fu bagua zhang and all the techniques he showed were superfast and to the point:D

You'd love to see Master Painter's nine dragon baguazhang, its very effective.

[goju]

ive heard of the guy in magazines just never seen his stuff preformed:D
obviously the styles effective other wise it wouldnt have been favored by chinese bodyguards way back

[sanjuro_ronin]

ive heard of the guy in magazines just never seen his stuff preformed:D
obviously the styles effective other wise it wouldnt have been favored by chinese bodyguards way back

Youtube has some stuff, Dale Dugas is one of his instructors.

[dimethylsea]

You'd love to see Master Painter's nine dragon baguazhang, its very effective.


John Painter is a very classy dude. He's caught alot of flack over the years from people who objected to the oral history of his lineage, but he's always been a gentleman. He's also has a number of really odd skillsets beyond bagua including (so I hear) illusion/stage magic and fast-drawing pistols.
If someone wanted some good training they could do FAR worse than the Gompa.

Dale seems to be cast in Painter's mode.. he's a gentleman online and trains hard. He also likes the heavy iron. Check ou his kettlebell clips on youtube!

[Ray Pina]

There is so much bad stuff out there that it begins to look good if dresses aggressively. I'd be careful.

As far as expectations of what TCMA or in this case Ba Gua should look like... we need more real resistance against unfriendlies to form an opinion. I'd love to see Novell's footage. Did he fight in the show?

[goju]

no he was a guest coach and demonstrated some techniques fast as all hell too
he however has cometed and is a champion in full contact competions

[Ray Pina]

That is not necessarily accurate and part of the problem.

It is true that Novell Bell fought a visiting Chinese fighter in a ring and won. I saw the footage. That was many years ago and against what I would judge to be a beginner amateur fighter.... who was giving up size. I don't believe the event was sanctioned. That level of fighter would not be competing today even at the amateur level. The competition has become that fierce.

Here is the point I'm making. I've seen Novell's demonstrations. He has knowledge. He moves skillfully. There's no doubt he can handle himself against the average man on the street.

But how does one circulate within the martial world for as many years as he and the other "masters" mentioned without wracking up a bunch of fights? I just fought Aug. 1. Have to pass on an Oct. 15 fight because I'm traveling for work but am fighting again in Nov.

There are levels in martial arts. There is never a finished product but there is a time when one has to go out and fight. These masters somehow have avoided that stage and transitioned from student to master without ever having gotten dirty... and that's their loss. Because no matter how many people they wow with their demonstrations, they lack knowledge that competing amateur fighters have.... about their bodies, mind, dealing with intensive training, overcoming bad situations, pain, injury, promotional drama. Going to fight another man who set a date to fight with you... and you both have three months to prepare to be your best for that day.

When you have done that enough, there's something about you. Renzo Gracie is so full of that stuff. I see it dripping off of high-level, successful fighters.

Honestly, I think it shameful that the word master is thrown around so easily and many are so easily drawn to the spotlight to put on a facade of something they are not.

They're not masters of combat because for the most part they haven't faced that challenge. So they're the masters of what?

[Ray Pina]

or


And again, opportunities to demonstrate and talk.... but why still no real fight footage? You can't get around it.

Want to know who a master is? Randy Couture. He lost to Brock Lesner but fought a beautiful first round controlling a man much larger and younger then himself. Even though he ultimately failed, he demonstrated real skill.

That's balls. Balls to go fight. And balls to put it on the line and possibly lose.

These guys would lose everything they've built with their mouths and friendly video sessions if they stepped up. So they don't. <-------------- (period)

[Frost]

These are good points made by Ray, we see all these demonstrations but virtually no fight footage from these masters, we don’t even see their students getting into a ring/cage. How can you be a master of a fighting art if you don’t have a proven fight record or have produced good fighters?

I understand not everyone wants to fight in the ring, but we rarely see any footage of these guys going hard in their own gyms, just applications and theory.

Anyone can demonstrate fast technique when they know what technique is being thrown and that nothing is following it up.

[goju]

well as ive told the people who say this go find these guys and offer to spar with them
then you will see if they are good
not every master cares about impressing a bunch of teenagers on a board who sit on their ass all day and talk **** about what style kicks what styles ass you know

[Ray Pina]

not every master cares about impressing a bunch of teenagers on a board who sit on their ass all day and talk **** about what style kicks what styles ass you know

You are naive.

How did Novell Bell get his reputation? He certainly didn't get it fighting anyone, certainly not anyone of note.

He got it not only promoting himself on the internet but intimidating people with his urban background. It was hard enough for a hippy-surfer like myself to find Kung Fu guys to fight with in NYC back in the day.... who would rush out to fight a 6-foot-something urban giant? .... no one from Kung Fu, that's for sure.

There have been opportunities for him to fight MMA guys though. But he passed. Plane and simple.

Yet the video demonstrations, the web sites, the instructional videos.... no shortage of them.

People want to believe in this "high level" mysterious unbeatable technique. It doesn't exist. Fighting is technical but its also a very tough, dirty thing. Anything can happen.

I have tons of video. Tons! All fighting. Some I win wonderfully. Some I lose. I'm not a master. I'm a kook. So much to learn.

I actually feel sorry for these guys because they painted themselves into a corner. They've made so much hype about themselves they can't go fight now. And now they'll never get a chance to learn the most valuable, real lessons of martial arts. And they'll have to live with that.

The other thing is you can't fool people who do what they do. Fighters know.

If you're training with fighters and doing well you'll be approached by coaches or promoters to fight --- because they are watching, they'll match you up with someone they think will be a good fight.

Fighters jump all over that. To test themselves. To see what they're made of. To rally their training partners. And for the fun.

Some of those guys pass. They move well. They have technique. But they lack "it." That thing that will let them set an appointment to fight a guy of same size and stature (this is important for Novell who has been known to bully these same internet kids).

Almost as a general rule, these guys start out being the guy in the gym always correcting the newbies, getting off on demonstrating their knowledge. Then they become teachers.

This is all fine. But be honest about where you've been and where you are.

[Rockwood]

I think there are people who can be "ok" or "good" at martial arts without going through the rigorous testing of ring fighting or street fighting.

But you'll never reach your full potential, and much of what you want to do will never blossom and come to life without that testing.

Fight sports isn't the only place to do this, but it's the safest, funnest and easiest way to do it.

Fighting for your life is another way, but that's crazy, dangerous and messy.

Ultimately, if you don't do one or the other, you'll never be great.

Personally, I spar with other low level, sub-amateur dweebs and geeks like myself, so I'll never even reach a medium level of skill in Chinese martial arts. I'm cool with that, I have a family, kids, mortgages, etc to deal with. So the added stress of truly attempting to be the best I can be is not an issue. Survival is the issue at the moment, keeping my wife happy and roof overhead.

My teachers gave that kind of thing up to test themselves in brutal and extreme ways, where people were seriously injured. Some even spent time in jail, or were injured, or had to grapple with mental and emotional issues because of the things that they did. They got the skill, but was it worth it? For them yes, for me no.

We are lucky to have the MMA and sport fighting boom in progress right now, it gives everyone a chance to spar skilled opponents safely. That's not to be taken for granted, just 20 years ago that was nearly impossible. This should lead to new heights for the Chinese martial arts.

-Jess O

PS Hi Ray, glad your quest to test yourself in the ring continues to lead you to great things.

[Lucas]

We are lucky to have the MMA and sport fighting boom in progress right now, it gives everyone a chance to spar skilled opponents safely. That's not to be taken for granted, just 20 years ago that was nearly impossible. This should lead to new heights for the Chinese martial arts.



very well said

[Ray Pina]

Good post, and nice to hear from you and I agree 100%.

For me, I have no allusions of grandeur. I highly doubt you'll see me on the UFC.

I've always studied and trained. I became bored and discouraged with TCM tournaments and then MMA became common.... too common to ignore. So I wanted to see if I could compete there amateur. And I couldn't so I trained harder, improved, learned, and then I could.

Now I'm going through the same steps professionally.

If I had a wife and kid and house I don't know if I would bother, especially if I was getting books published like some people we know (have them both on my shelf):)

One does not have to go out to fight. But honestly, the biggest martial art lessons I've learned have come from it. It's not something someone can teach you, just things you learn. And its all kinds of things.

I do take issues though with men who have no gone the distance --- that alone requires something unteachable -- and pass themselves off as an authority on a subject they are really unfamiliar with. Complete bums win street fights everyday. That's no test of skill. Skill is beating someone good who is also trained and prepared to fight.

The truth is, it's mostly Kung Fu and exotic stylist that get away with that. Because styles like Judo and BJJ and MM are open and competitive. They seek out competition and comparison so its highly standardized. As a member you can go anywhere in the world and know where you fit in.

I'm not saying these guys aren't good. I'm not saying they are good. I'm saying its very unclear what's up with them but its clear they didn't see the need to compare their material with their day's standard. They're certainly not up to today's standard.

Who would advertise an untested, 20 year old computer? Better yet, who would buy it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good post, and nice to hear from you and I agree 100%.

For me, I have no allusions of grandeur. I highly doubt you'll see me on the UFC.

I've always studied and trained. I became bored and discouraged with TCM tournaments and then MMA became common.... too common to ignore. So I wanted to see if I could compete there amateur. And I couldn't so I trained harder, improved, learned, and then I could.

Now I'm going through the same steps professionally.

If I had a wife and kid and house I don't know if I would bother, especially if I was getting books published like some people we know (have them both on my shelf):)

One does not have to go out to fight. But honestly, the biggest martial art lessons I've learned have come from it. It's not something someone can teach you, just things you learn. And its all kinds of things.

I do take issues though with men who have no gone the distance --- that alone requires something unteachable -- and pass themselves off as an authority on a subject they are really unfamiliar with. Complete bums win street fights everyday. That's no test of skill. Skill is beating someone good who is also trained and prepared to fight.

The truth is, it's mostly Kung Fu and exotic stylist that get away with that. Because styles like Judo and BJJ and MM are open and competitive. They seek out competition and comparison so its highly standardized. As a member you can go anywhere in the world and know where you fit in.

I'm not saying these guys aren't good. I'm not saying they are good. I'm saying its very unclear what's up with them but its clear they didn't see the need to compare their material with their day's standard. They're certainly not up to today's standard.

Who would advertise an untested, 20 year old computer? Better yet, who would buy it?

Great post Ray and may I say that you seem to have mellowed out a bit and I can see you becoming a very good MA, keep up the good work Bro.

[David Jamieson]

I agree that the way to fully understand what you are doing as a martial art you must test it either through amateur or professional competition or, street fight.

Having said that, I have to say that everyone's full and eventual potential is a pine box.

At 45 years, I'm just training. I still pressure test, but with no where near the vigour and vim that I did in my 20's and 30's

Having said that, get out there and get punched in the face you sissies!
You'll never know how not that bad it is until you try. :D

(provided you don't lose teeth or get anything broken in the process...cept maybe yer nose. lol )

[Lucas]

Having said that, get out there and get punched in the face you sissies!
You'll never know how not that bad it is until you try. :D



lol too true. i remember the first time i got rocked as a teenager by a boxer friend in a friendly match. i was like, wow thats not so bad...as i was getting up off the grass...

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol too true. i remember the first time i got rocked as a teenager by a boxer friend in a friendly match. i was like, wow thats not so bad...as i was getting up off the grass...

That;s not the worse bro, the worse is when some kid with a handful of years training pushes you to the limit even though you've been doing MA longer than he has been alive !!
The old MA adage that experience must fear the speed and strength of youth !!

[bawang]

hi there is a good chinese saying 花拳入门,误了一生
when you become diciple in a flower style, you whole life is wasted

[Lucas]

That;s not the worse bro, the worse is when some kid with a handful of years training pushes you to the limit even though you've been doing MA longer than he has been alive !!
The old MA adage that experience must fear the speed and strength of youth !!

lol. ive kind of felt that before. theres this kid i used to spar with, had increadably strong and fast kicks, one of those guys that only has one mode when sparring; destroy, maim, kill, decapitate. but then im only 30, so....:D

[Ray Pina]

I still hate that taste you get in the back of the throat, way up high, when you get punched in the nose. But nothing gets me madder than being thrown.:)

I'm guessing I got three more years before I have to start really fearing the youth.

[goju]

theres to many old f arts on this board:D

[Skip J.]

lol. ive kind of felt that before. theres this kid i used to spar with, had increadably strong and fast kicks, one of those guys that only has one mode when sparring; destroy, maim, kill, decapitate. but then im only 30, so....:D
Ummmmm, old is when those kiddoes in their '50's look and act so much younger...

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres to many old f arts on this board:D

Yep, some of us have been doing MA since before you were born.
And some before WE were born !