Lien gung sik - Solo Training

[Yoshiyahu]

wing chun kuen, training equipment includes:

mirrors
sandbags
candles
rattan rings
chopstick bundles
paper
wooden dummy.

Here is some equipment use in solo training?

Most of them are pretty self explantory.


Now I wanted to know your opinions on the use of chop sticks and punching a candle flame and paper? How useful are those things in real fighting?

Please share your opinions and provide some good quality information.

[-木叶-]

无师无对手，对镜与桩求

"Without my sifu or any opponent, i will look to the mirror or the wooden dummy".

[anerlich]

Now I wanted to know your opinions on the use of chop sticks

There are better methods and equipment in modern times to develop the attributes these are purported to develop.


and punching a candle flame and paper? How useful are those things in real fighting?

Waste of time IMO.

[Lee Chiang Po]

mirrors = You can not watch yourself and know what you are doing right or wrong. You have to feel that.

sandbags = Yes, they can help you develop the fists and wrists for hard punching.

candles= Forget this.

rattan rings= forget this.

chopstick bundles= It is easier to eat with a fork.

paper = forget this too.

wooden dummy. = Yes, this will help you in your applications.

Learning is done in a learning invironment. You learn nothing of value while you are getting slammed in the face. You only apply what you have learned earlier. This is why I say you do not have to actually fight to learn to fight. You have to learn to fight first, then you apply what you have learned to do when you fight. You test what you have learned, and you determine what does and does not work for you when you fight.
If you do not have a partner to train with, you can make yourself a one armed dummy to train and drill with. It will not be the same, but no dummy is exacly like working with a human partner. Here is where you use a little imagination.

[donbdc]

If you benefit from it use it! mostly I use mirrors, the dummy and Kettlebells!
Don Berry DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

Don: What is the purpose of...

1. Striking the flame on a candle

2. Twisting a Bundle of chop sticks

3. Punching paper


There was and eagle claw guy from Shaolin who said tht todays martial arts lack the paper punching training. Although I saw a Jeet Kune Do video which had this sort of training with in their system?

Please share your opinion?

[donbdc]

When I studied your system w/ Master McField those where doe for:

1 Chopstick, grip strength and training the elbows

2 & 3 Punching speed.
say Hi to Woody
Don Berry DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

When I studied your system w/ Master McField those where doe for:

1 Chopstick, grip strength and training the elbows

2 & 3 Punching speed.
say Hi to Woody
Don Berry DC RKC

Thank you Don? I was wondering if any other lineages...or someone outside of us Don utilizes those tools before. I previewed a book called 72 Skils(Kungs) of shaolin. It speaks of hitting the flame and chopstick drilling as well. But many people today have lost this training. I was wandering if their are any other YKS or mainland WC people who still keep this training alive? And Why?

But thats alot Don for sharing. I suspect you will gain scrunity from some of the others. I saw Woody yesterday. He always speaks highly of you Don Berry. Keep up the great training.

[donbdc]

:D
Do you think any body on this forum holds me in any regard? No my friend I am no pedigree,LOL!
Peace
PS Get a Kettle Bell and find an instructor!
Don Berry DC RKC

[anerlich]

There was and eagle claw guy from Shaolin who said tht todays martial arts lack the paper punching training.

Some unnamed **** "from Shaolin" has an opinion. Big ****ing deal. Maybe some training methods get lost because they suck.


PS Get a Kettle Bell and find an instructor!

Agree 100%. Preferably get several KB's.

[Yoshiyahu]

Some unnamed **** "from Shaolin" has an opinion. Big ****ing deal. Maybe some training methods get lost because they suck.



Agree 100%. Preferably get several KB's.

Thank you for your opinion Anerlich. Please share me in your point of view what is the reason for following the drills:

1. Twisting chop sticks?

2. Punching a flame of a candle?

3. Punching a sheet of paper?

4.Rattan Rings

What is the reason for this training?

[donbdc]

Few people on this forum like them, and the subject has been brought up a few times. I use them and I like them, and since YOU asked I will explain a little.
I use them w/ complex hand motion and foot work patterns. Insert the hands through opposite directions, do Gahn/Johm or tan Dah or whatever complex motion you want apply w/ foot work. Keeps the elbows inside and makes sure the upper and lower boddy are working together. It's a nice training tool.
As far as KB's go go to Dragondoor.com, LOok for a certified trainer. This will help you in soooo many ways!
Take Care
Don Berry DC RKC

[sanjuro_ronin]

On a side note, Kettlebells are a VERY traditional training method.
Versions of KB exist in TCMA and in Okinawan Karate.

[donbdc]

On a side note, Kettlebells are a VERY traditional training method.
Versions of KB exist in TCMA and in Okinawan Karate.

Exactly! They are not new just a rediscovery of an old training device, put together w/ modern training techniques from some of the formost sports physiologist in the world.
Did I say go to dragondoor.com:D.
Don Berry DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

On a side note, Kettlebells are a VERY traditional training method.
Versions of KB exist in TCMA and in Okinawan Karate.

sanjuro_ronin. Whats the benefit of kettel bells?

Also in your opinion what do you think the purpose of punching a flame and piece of paper?


Don Berry what got you into using kettle bells?

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin. Whats the benefit of kettel bells?

Also in your opinion what do you think the purpose of punching a flame and piece of paper?


Don Berry what got you into using kettle bells?

Punching paper?
Hmmm, never been attacked by a piece of paper before...

[donbdc]

sanjuro_ronin. Whats the benefit of kettel bells?

Also in your opinion what do you think the purpose of punching a flame and piece of paper?


Don Berry what got you into using kettle bells?

a good friend of mine got his certification, he is a JKD instructor as well. I started trianing w/ him 3 yrs ago, immidiately saw the benefits. Endurance, strength, mobility. Done properly they are w/o a doubt the biggest bang for your buck! 20 minutes 3-4 times/ week, your done.
It will improve your game and even help prevent injuries! and even more importantly your over all health!
Don Berry DC RKC

[chusauli]

KB's are the bomb!

I trained with Shi Sou, Muk Yee Pai, and weights for a long time - when I saw KB's I thought they were great!

I learned from Mark Cheng, RKC, and also learned from Valery Fedorenko, AKC - 2 different styles of KB's, but both great!

Its old school weight training, as it should be.

[Yoshiyahu]

Punching paper?
Hmmm, never been attacked by a piece of paper before...

So true. I never been attacked by a wall bag, wooden dummy or heavy bag. But I still think there is a benefit to hitting them. What about you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So true. I never been attacked by a wall bag, wooden dummy or heavy bag. But I still think there is a benefit to hitting them. What about you?

I think there is a benefit to humour.

[donbdc]

KB's are the bomb!

I trained with Shi Sou, Muk Yee Pai, and weights for a long time - when I saw KB's I thought they were great!

I learned from Mark Cheng, RKC, and also learned from Valery Fedorenko, AKC - 2 different styles of KB's, but both great!

Its old school weight training, as it should be.

Dr Mark Cheng is a phenomenal instructor. He has an incredible eye for detail and really can coomunicate instruction well. All in all the best KB instruction I have ever had came fro Mark.
Don Berr DC RKC

[chusauli]

Dr Mark Cheng is a phenomenal instructor. He has an incredible eye for detail and really can coomunicate instruction well. All in all the best KB instruction I have ever had came fro Mark.
Don Berr DC RKC

Without a doubt, Mark Cheng is one of the best KB instructors out there! He was personally trained by Pavel.

Valery Fedorenko and Steve Cotter are also phenomenal!

[Frost]

Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn't even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?

And at least one well known coach with ties to the old soviet union has pointed out that the coaches and athletes over there he has spoken to know nothing about Pavel and that the kettlebells they used in their training in the soviet era were differently shaped and mainly used for explosive throwing and jumping exercises as well as some exercises for the feet.

Not saying that people can’t find a use for them but they are not better than traditional methods of lifting and there popularity does show the power of a good marketing campaign

[anerlich]

Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn't even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?

Thank god none of these sort of shenanigans go on in Wing Chun, eh? :p

[Frost]

Thank god none of these sort of shenanigans go on in Wing Chun, eh? :p

LMAO :D cheers at work and needed a laugh

[donbdc]

Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn't even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?

And at least one well known coach with ties to the old soviet union has pointed out that the coaches and athletes over there he has spoken to know nothing about Pavel and that the kettlebells they used in their training in the soviet era were differently shaped and mainly used for explosive throwing and jumping exercises as well as some exercises for the feet.

Not saying that people can’t find a use for them but they are not better than traditional methods of lifting and there popularity does show the power of a good marketing campaign

I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don't care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT's, Chiro's MD's and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB's further than Pavel ever could. It's not about Pavel it's about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don't care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT's, Chiro's MD's and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB's further than Pavel ever could. It's not about Pavel it's about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC

Good comeback...I really can't comment on kettel bells or pavel. I am totally ignorant to the subject. But it sounds like a great debate thus far.

[chusauli]

Don,

Absolutely! Its all about the results you have!

[Frost]

I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don't care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT's, Chiro's MD's and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB's further than Pavel ever could. It's not about Pavel it's about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC

I am sure you get the same breakdown of attendees at a crossfit seminar or any other seminar, as I said dragondoor is very good when it comes to marketing.

Are you looking at kettlebells as a PT tool to help rehab injured athletes, or as strength and conditioning tool? I think this is where we maybe differ I will look at guys like Cooke for injury prevention material and rehab work, not for strength and conditioning advice as I do not believe this is their area of expertise.

But I am always willing to learn and change my mind; I was put off by the whole kettlebell thing because of the lack of scientific evidence to back up their claims, and by pavel himself. If you can point me to some per reviewed scientific studies about the specific benefits of kettlebells for strength and conditioning over other methods of training I would love to see them

[donbdc]

I am sure you get the same breakdown of attendees at a crossfit seminar or any other seminar, as I said dragondoor is very good when it comes to marketing. Thats mostly John DuCane not Pavel's department. The forum has good ? and answer post for these type of discussions.

Are you looking at kettlebells as a PT tool to help rehab injured athletes, or as strength and conditioning tool? I use it as a rehab tool for my patients based on Cookes work.

I think this is where we maybe differ I will look at guys like Cooke for injury prevention material and rehab work, not for strength and conditioning advice as I do not believe this is their area of expertise.
Cooke is a trainer for the Indiannapolis Colts. So Strength and conditioning are injury prevention. Cookes work just checks those imbalances first so the training is done properly.

But I am always willing to learn and change my mind; I was put off by the whole kettlebell thing because of the lack of scientific evidence to back up their claims, and by pavel himself. If you can point me to some per reviewed scientific studies about the specific benefits of kettlebells for strength and conditioning over other methods of training I would love to see them

I like this attitude! Too few of us have it. I think there have been a few comparative studies though very small (n) and pretty old, done in the 20's in the eastern block. I think it is a great idea, Dr McGill could do it. I will put the suggestion out. I will also look for more info for you. Kenneth Jay's book ,Viking Warrior Conditioning,is a great book full of research on V O2 and cardio benefit.
Don't let a personality stop you from your own personal development. Find a certed trainer and try a kb see what you think after swinging for a month.
All the best
Don Berry DC RKC

[Frost]

I like this attitude! Too few of us have it. I think there have been a few comparative studies though very small (n) and pretty old, done in the 20's in the eastern block. I think it is a great idea, Dr McGill could do it. I will put the suggestion out. I will also look for more info for you. Kenneth Jay's book ,Viking Warrior Conditioning,is a great book full of research on V O2 and cardio benefit.
Don't let a personality stop you from your own personal development. Find a certed trainer and try a kb see what you think after swinging for a month.
All the best
Don Berry DC RKC

I was under the impression that the soviets never actually did any comparative studies and this was part of the problem with the folks at dragon door; they made all the claims without any scientific back up.

If Dr McGill does take up the suggestion that would be great, too much in the strength and conditioning field is based on too little research and marketing blowing what little research there has been done on a particular area out of all proportion (the tabata protocol for example. Saying aerobic training limits strength gains and is unnecessary and intervals are all you need, or that MMA is strictly an anaerobic endeavour etc)

Thanks for the book recommendation, in return as far as conditioning books relating to martial arts can I suggest Joel Jamison’s ultimate MMA conditioning book. Joel’s methods are based on years of research into the old soviet methods and have been proven with the many pro mma fighters and other athletes he has worked with.

All the best to you in your training too.

[donbdc]

Thanks I will check it out!

[donbdc]

Some more info on Kettle Bells and Cooke.

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=136871559676&h=5NDWP&u=d7G6D&ref=mf

[TenTigers]

KB's are the bomb!

I trained with Shi Sou, Muk Yee Pai, and weights for a long time - when I saw KB's I thought they were great!

I learned from Mark Cheng, RKC, and also learned from Valery Fedorenko, AKC - 2 different styles of KB's, but both great!

Its old school weight training, as it should be.

I just picked up a really nice pair of Muk Yee Pai from Hop-Ga Sifu David Chin Dai-Wai. Furniture-grade oak, beautifully crafted, and he will be coming out with an instructional DVD soon. If you recall the book, "The Intelligent Swordplay of the Lamist School" (as opposed to the stupid swordplay?) by Lo Wai Keung, in the back he shows the Lama P'ai Mok Yee Pai set. I haven't tried it yet-the book is buried somewhere in storage!
What movements do you do with the Muk Yee Pai?

[chusauli]

I just picked up a really nice pair of Muk Yee Pai from Hop-Ga Sifu David Chin Dai-Wai. Furniture-grade oak, beautifully crafted, and he will be coming out with an instructional DVD soon. If you recall the book, "The Intelligent Swordplay of the Lamist School" (as opposed to the stupid swordplay?) by Lo Wai Keung, in the back he shows the Lama P'ai Mok Yee Pai set. I haven't tried it yet-the book is buried somewhere in storage!
What movements do you do with the Muk Yee Pai?

There is no set needed. Do the Pak Hoc Luk Lik Kuen, or Lama Chuen, Pao, Cup, Gwa, Jong, Sou, Jung Gu Chai Ming, etc. Or do Lama sets Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han. Even CLF or Hung Gar 5 element sets can be practiced with them.

Where do I get these Muk Yee Pai?

[TenTigers]

Where do I get these Muk Yee Pai?



http://www.realhopgar.com/catalog_1.html

[Yoshiyahu]

Are there any other great training tools that augment your Wing Chun other than Kettle Bells?

Or do you believe Kettle Bells are the be all to end all?

[donbdc]

Well Brother,
KB's have been great to me. I believe if your going to train in Martial Arts you need to be strong and in a good state of fitness, so I utilize KB's a lot. I also use a lot of join mobility drills, body wirght excecise and a pull up bar for that.
But the dummy, Rattan Ring, Pole, knives and a mirror: are tools I use every day.
Have a good one

Don Berry DC RKC

[donbdc]

I also utilize other grip strengthening tools, such as rolling up weights on a rope and Captians of Crush grippers. They are the bomb, just google them, and some isometrics for grip strength. I mix excercises I have learned from Sifu Randy Williams and strong man David Whitley at Iron Tamer. com.
If interested I have a good connection for grippers and Kettlebells.

Don Berry DC RKC

[chusauli]

Actually, doing squats and deadlifts and swings help your WCK tremendously, along with pushups, pull ups, and crunches. Not to mention some cardio.

When you actively engage the low back, abdominals, glutes and core muscles with pelvic thrust coordinated with your striking - that is the goal.

You can achieve that with dumbbells, barbells, Chiishi, KB's, sledgehamers, etc. Then do it without equipment.

[donbdc]

Actually, doing squats and deadlifts and swings help your WCK tremendously, along with pushups, pull ups, and crunches. Not to mention some cardio.

When you actively engage the low back, abdominals, glutes and core muscles with pelvic thrust coordinated with your striking - that is the goal.

You can achieve that with dumbbells, barbells, Chiishi, KB's, sledgehamers, etc. Then do it without equipment.

Not only does all of that help your WCK, but done properly it will help fight type 2 diabetis, hear dz, depression...etc. The real battles we all face.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having a strong body is very important for health reasons, it is CRUCIAL for training MA if fighting is, in any way, a part of your training.
Modern medicine and studies have shown that strength training is actually more benefitial than "aerobic" training ( Probably because you can actually do both at the same time and it is "low impact").
Its good for your bones and for women, that is very important.

[chusauli]

http://www.realhopgar.com/catalog_1.html

Thanks! Christmas may come early!

LOL! Dumb swordplay of the Lama school doesn't quite have the ring to it.

[chusauli]

Not only does all of that help your WCK, but done properly it will help fight type 2 diabetis, hear dz, depression...etc. The real battles we all face.

Amen!

On Larry King, September 10, 2009:

KING: The book "Why Our Health Matters," the guest, Dr. Andrew Weil.OK, if you -- if you could make some changes, give us some that you would make right now. Be -- be -- be the king.

WEIL: OK. First of all, we don't have a health care system in this country, we have a disease management system that's horribly dysfunctional and getting worse by the day. And the vast majority of disease that we're trying to manage is lifestyle related and, therefore, preventable.

[donbdc]

Amen!

On Larry King, September 10, 2009:

KING: The book "Why Our Health Matters," the guest, Dr. Andrew Weil.OK, if you -- if you could make some changes, give us some that you would make right now. Be -- be -- be the king.

WEIL: OK. First of all, we don't have a health care system in this country, we have a disease management system that's horribly dysfunctional and getting worse by the day. And the vast majority of disease that we're trying to manage is lifestyle related and, therefore, preventable.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is as a chiro for over 20 yrs to treat people who refuse to make any changes. Fat, sedentary people w/ chronic low back pain refusing to help themselves, expecting a miracle in pill form w/ immidiate results. Truth is the only time I may end up using my WCK is on one of them, LOL!

[chusauli]

I have the same problem.

Just educate them.

[donbdc]

I have the same problem.

Just educate them.

I find that some get what I call the gift of desperation, where they're finally so sick and tired of being sick and tired they are willng to do what it takes. But many are not there yet, some have become addicts and some have becme so entangled w/ their pian that they have begun to identify themselves w/ their symptoms. Thus, they become afraid of being healthy, it would mean losing their identity.
Strange thing pain, the mind. How to change their thoughts that goes beyond education, it has to be on a deep emotional level.
I am always looking for tools in this regard.
Take Care
Don Berry DC RKC

[chusauli]

Some are drawn to the carrot; others the whip. LOL! :)

[TenTigers]

some have becme so entangled w/ their pian that they have begun to identify themselves w/ their symptoms. Don Berry DC RKC

pian.. that's been in Cantonese, right? It means whip or tail, as in San Pian Chiew(sam been jow).
So it actually means pen1s. So they are getting entangled with it? That's gotta hurt. I've clipped it in my zipper a few times, and I gotta tell ya, it's no picnic. Of course, nothing like that scene in "Something about Mary." But actually getting it tangled...it would have to be pretty long...being jewish, I've never personally encountered that problem, and what with the cold weather coming, not likely to occur anytime soon. Not that I haven't tried. I mean, just out of curiosity. Not lately, of course. When I was little. Just something kids do when they have too much time on their hands. Of course, after awhile, other things to do with it besides trying to tie it into a knot 'sprang up," so to speak, and that started to occupy more of my time....might be why my eyesight is failing...

[TenTigers]

Some are drawn to the carrot; others the whip. LOL! :)
kinda the same thing, isn't it?
My sister was fond of carrots. Used to by them and cucumbers all the time...never ate them though...
curious...

[TenTigers]

she used to go through alot of batteries too. I don't know why a girl would need to use a flashlight so much...

[chusauli]

Rik,

Me thinks you need some release...

All this phallic symbolism and references to your sis says you need to go get some.

Doctor's orders!

Your qi will be more balanced.

:)

[TenTigers]

Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write it.
Blame Donbdc!
He's the guy with the obsession with pians!:p

[donbdc]

http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=744343497&share_id=144169763276&comments=1#s144169763276
This is from my local paper. Thought i'd share.
Keep training
Don Berry DC RKC

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write it.
Blame Donbdc!
He's the guy with the obsession with pians!:p

hey i think you should buy your sister some cucumbers and offer to help her make them disappear...this way you can just get it out your system buddy.

Wow your a walking taboo novel waiting to happen.

Please tell me your story when your finish.

[Hendrik]

(scrol down) my lien gung sik. Let go and sleep while standing. standing until the whole body feel like floating silk levetate in the air with every join loose up --- the first move of Yik Kam's SLT.


http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm

[JPinAZ]

Haha, very 'interesting' video of you standnig in the kitchen nodding off while waiting for your bacon to finish frying :confused: