Mantis Hand Skill

[fiercest tiger]

To all mantis players!

i have a question about your mantis hand with the one finger, do most of you guys train this finger or hand shape?

do you really think you can hurt someone with it, even if you missed the target and hit a boney area?

do you think that your finger is strong enough to penetrate someones muscle and injure them?

without answers like they are only used at soft parts of the body like, the throat and clavicle, and eyes. can you really use it!??


thanks in advance :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

good question tiger, I often used to think the same way about an isyun-ryu fist. But the diiference between a mantis hand position and say a tiger claw is practical application. The mantis hand is meant more to show the style then to use it as a strike. Although we do have some tecniques that use it as an eye poke , but it is for the most part to distinguish the stlye. Also when we demonstrate a grab we show the finger hooked and the last two closed, but in the event of a actual grab all 5 finers are used. As far as finger strength anyone can condition the fingers to become very strong. My first hung gar teacher Ting Fong Wong used to drill his finger through a brick! And I have seen a picture of feng hua Yi from our system doing a hand stand on his index finger, so it is possilble to condition the hands and fingers to do almost anything, but again not likely or practical for all..........

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[fiercest tiger]

hi mate!

yes im just asking because there are lot of mantis players here, but are they REALLY confident with striking using the one finger, do they REALLY train it like your old masters did?

thats why i ask this such question!! people like to imitate but cannot do, that most people are form experts only... you understand what im saying?

thanks for the answer :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

Yes I do understand, that is why I answered you honestly. Maybe some people would like to think that a one finger strike to the right pressure point could imobilize an opponent but its highly unlikely. Finger pokes can work well to subue an atack but I would not rely on that in a serious confrontation. PS I dont think any one is capable to trian like the old masters..... We have to many things to be preoccupied with our time i,e jobs wives freinds fun... in the old days kung fu was a way of life, now its just a love for the art and the time we try to find to practice it

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kiasyd]

Hi!

I'm training 7 start Praying Mantis for 5 months now, and as far as I know (wich isn't very much :) ) the mantis hand (diu sao) is normally one of two things:

1 - a grabbing action
2 - an attack actin using the "external" part of the wrist.

I don't think the finger is used for poking. It normally goes along the opponent's arm during the grab.

There are other attacks on the praying mantis systems that are pokes in soft areas, but they aren't used with the diu sao.

-- Kiasyd

[baldmantiz]

there is another technique used in mantis called the double poke...basically if i were to poke at the eyes this is what i would use instead of the one finger...the double pokes are done using all 5 fingers closed together....but i forget what this hand position is called.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

[Young Mantis]

FT,

While the mantis hand is a unique and characteristic hand formation of all the mantis styles, it is not the only hand formation we use in fighting. In fact, I would say it is used less often than palm or fist strikes. Your question about the mantis hand leads me to think your exposure to mantis has been through movies and watching forms. I have yet to see a movie where the mantis style is depicted accurately. It is always shown as a finger strike and it appears the practitioner never uses anything else. Well, the movie wants to make sure the audience knows what style that person is supposed to be using, to distinguish him from say a tiger claw fighter in the movie.

There is a lot more to the mantis hand than what you think. There are many practical applications to the diu sao and very specific reasons for why the hand is shaped in that way. Earth Dragon, I am surprised you would say there aren't being as that you are a mantis practitioner. It is not just for show and for distinguishing the style, at least not in my school or lineage.

YM

[BeiTangLang]

(nm)

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[dedboy]

Few students in my school have trained it, but we have the option of something called 'Poison Palm' training.

It's sort of a corrollary to iron palm, and involves pulling 'peg' type nails from a stump using just the forefinger and thumb tip.

The skill that results from training allows techniques like using thumb and forefinger to snap the armbone after hooking a punch.

This is different from a poison palm style of qigong I've heard of that results in the practioner emiting some sort of chi poison from the palms. (Not sure if anyone actually claims to be able to do it, or knows the method for cultivating the skill.)

[fiercest tiger]

young mantis ive never seen a n/mantis school but only forms and movies etc.
ive seen some really silly applications of mantis like most schools. what im saying is if you miss with a mantis eye poke aka 1 finger strike and hit the skull do you think that most mantis players condition the finger strong enough to not break it!?

i didnt know it was only used for grabbing and using the wrist!!! :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

dear young mantis, I think you misunderstood what I said or possibly I didnt explain my self correctly. I answered fierce tiger's question about why we use that hand position, for a strike or a poke.I replied that it is sometimes used as a poke or a grab but for the most part it is used to distinguish mantis from other styles of kung fu not other styles of mantis.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger

You miss understand what mantis is all about. You're so far off the tack that thee s just no point to stat correcting your views least you should get offended.

But I do tend to understand that you being a southern kung fu pactioner is fixated with hand configrations. I mean, that's all that Southern Kung Fu has going for.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Young Mantis]

Earth Dragon,

I don't think I quite understand your last post. You said: "it is sometimes used as a poke or a grab but for the most part it is used to distinguish mantis from other styles of kung fu not other styles of mantis."

Are you saying that for you, the mantis hand is primarily used for display? That it is only sometimes used for a grab or strike but otherwise serves no practical application purpose? That there are times you use the mantis hand for no reason except to let others know that is the style you do?

This is interesting to me to see how other Mantis branches view the Mantis hand.

YM

[fiercest tiger]

believe it or not, i know alot more than what you think. unfortunately i have never seen a mantis player REALLY use its finger to pierce ****e! some mantis looks good, but how many can use that fist..this is my whole point!!! how many really train there finger....honestly everyday like the old masters??? not many have these skills, so i guest just look like a mantis and everything will work out well huh!!

i was obvously bored when i wrote this topic! :p

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

young mantis, why dont you explain whatyou think the mantis hand is used for. since my 19 years of training and my master know not as much as you.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

No need to get riled,...you did make the statement & it is quite fair that young mantis ask the question in the intrest of stylistic difference. I you are uncomfortable in sharing your the information of your 19 years of training & your masters, then I understand, but you did make the statement & young mantis _NICELY_ asked a question.

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[Young Mantis]

Dear Earth Dragon,

Why the hostility? I was not trying to discredit your knowledge of your mantis nor did I mean to offend you. I only found your comment that the mantis hand to be used for display very interesting.

For me and my lineage of Northern Mantis, every time the mantis hand appears in the forms, there is an application for it. Every time I practice those applications, there is a reason why the hand is formed that way. I do not know of a single instance where the mantis hand is formed just for the sake of show in my lineage's mantis. Perhaps it is different in your 8-Step Mantis which is why I asked about it. If you find this question offensive, then you can choose not to answer it. I did not disagree with your comment that the mantis hand can be used as a grab or poke. In fact, I quite agree as well as using it as a reverse diu sao where as Kiasyd stated, we use the back of the wrist to strike.

I never said I know more mantis than you or your sifu. We are not even of the same branch much less lineage. I can honestly say I know very little of your mantis branch and so I thought this to be a fair and general question.

BTL, thanks for helping to clarify my intentions.

FT, I hear what you are asking. Perhaps, there were some Mantis practitioners who liked striking with the single finger. I think what some of us mantis practioners are trying to say is that the single finger poke or strike is but one weapon in the style's arsenal and not a prevalent one at that. I don't practice it that often because there are many more techniques and applications that are more reliable and practical.

YM

[This message was edited by Young Mantis on 08-01-01 at 08:09 AM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am sorry for comming across as offensive as I seemed, I didnt mean to and again I apologize. It seemed as if your lineage which I thought was eight step was counterdicting what our master had taught us. Not sure if you know the whole story about my sifu's kung fu brothers claiming things of geneology resrtiction which he is not, simply out of their jealousy for him jealousy from their master Wei Xiao Tung. So I try to defend my teacher as best I can becuse he is not able to speak for himself on this board....(I dont even think he knows how to use the interent), but anyways he has taken some flack from a certain school and their students which I thought you were a part of, so I'm sorry for my strong response. But in all our forms the mantis hand is present and displayed but in practical application the acual finger position is not. their can only be so many applications of a grab or a poke, so therefore the hand postion is to claim mantis , much as the way we hold our hands and place our feet in 8 step, much wider hand span and much tighter deeper stance than say 7* or shinny board. how could you distinguish snake style form crane or lepoard if it wasnt for the hand or foot postion?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Young Mantis]

Earth Dragon, there really is no need to apologize. I figured it must have been some misunderstanding and I was not offended by your earlier post, just wanted to make sure you knew where I was coming from. I understand what you mean about distinguishing hand formations and how the form and the application of a technique can look different.

I can't say I know much about the politics pertaining to your branch of mantis outside of what I have read on this forum but I wish you and your Sifu luck and success in your endeavors.

YM

[fiercest tiger]

i hope i didnt come across rude, but just liked to know how many mantis people use and condition this fist technique!

thanks for the insight guys! :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[baldmantiz]

don't worry tiger, you weren't rude. i do train my hands in this position, but mostly to get used to the feeling of grabbing and trapping. i haven't really trained it for any kind of power strike. i believe that the mantis strike which utilizes the back of the hand could do damage if used properly to an area on the face, chin, etc.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

FierceTiger,

All mantis practitoners dream of being able to plunge their fingers into the soft flesh of their opponents and disembowel them in one stroke. Eagle claw practioners would give anything to be able to crush the bones and dislocate joints and perhaps disembowel their opponents with their fingers. Dragon claw stylist would love to heal the cracking of bones as their opponent's skull implodes in their vice like grip. Tiger claw artist wouild be thrilled to leave deep scratches on their enemy's chest and back just like the powerful cat they hope to immitate.

But before we achieve kung fu at it's highest, raw beginners have to first learn to claw their way through a wet paper bag..... and move on from their.

Does this answer you question?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[wisdom mind]

interesting topic, this is my main training focus at this time specifically the conditioning and usage of the traditional mantis claw

i do all sorts of pushups regular, knuckle, fingertip, back of wrist push ups with mantis claw formation for foundational support

i strike iron palm bag with back of wrist and dot it with finger tips.....

fingers can be used to poke and scratch, as well as grasp vein and tendons, one must have strong hands and wrist to use it also one can strike with the knuckles....proper positioning is crucial or you can harm yourself....

ask away

[tanglangman]

I was under the impression that the poke to the eyes using the mantis hand is meant to distract the opponent so that you can do a low attack, if this is the case then the you aren't expecting the strike to contact the eyes because they will be busy blocking it.

On a side note. Has anyone any knowledge of the One finger Zen hand shape??? It has just struck me that I haven't seen it in any of the forms I've seen, which to be honest isn't that many.

Anyone????

[Kiasyd]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I was under the impression that the poke to the eyes using the mantis hand is meant to distract the opponent so that you can do a low attack, if this is the case then the you aren't expecting the strike to contact the eyes because they will be busy blocking it. [/quote]

Exaclty, like the the bung bo form ilustrates, but with the "classical" two fingers eye poke, instead of the diu sao.

-- Kiasyd

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Would you all say that the center piece to the mantis system is to develop powerful finger strength by doing push ups, iron hand and chi kung training. Imagine the damage it could cause if not only you can strike at the eyes, but plunge your finger into your enemy's abdoment.

Remeber that the old kung fu masters must have been able to penetrate armour and other shielding with their bare hands. or catch swords between their fingers.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

You have a valid point, we have fighting principles in our system called the cardinal points and the are basically statagies to defeat your opponent, one such is to strike high to open the low area and visa versa. This is I beleive is what you meant by faking or attempting the eye poke to attack low, But I think the start of the thread to was to demise if the mantis hand/finger position was a sincere attack. With only attemting to eye poke your accuaracy will not be perfect or good enough to actually do any damage if and when you do have the opportunity to poke without the opponent having to block. So to attack at the upper gate we must first clairify if indeed the finger is fast or accurate enough.or the hand trainable enough to convince fierce tiger

http://www.kungfuUSA.net