Discipleship

[eric_thomson]

What is discipleship? Is it some kind of ceremony or something that students get when they reach a certain level? I heard that some Kung Fu schools have tea ceremonies when their students reach black belt or start their own studio. Has anyone else heard about this? If so, could you illustrate what discipleship is and what ceremonies, if any, are involved?

Sincerely,
Eric

[ShaolinTiger00]

What is it?

Poor Grammar. :)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by eric_thomson
What is discipleship? Is it some kind of ceremony or something that students get when they reach a certain level? I heard that some Kung Fu schools have tea ceremonies when their students reach black belt or start their own studio. Has anyone else heard about this? If so, could you illustrate what discipleship is and what ceremonies, if any, are involved?

Sincerely,
Eric

Traditionally when a student became a disciple, the relationship between student and teacher becomes similar to one of father and child. In some schools this also implies a more spiritual relationship as well as meaning that the student may be trusted to learn the 'secrets' of the art.

The idea of a disciple is not unique to the MA. In fact it is probably more common in a religious sense.

[eric_thomson]

If I wanted an English lesson I would have posted at EnglishMagazineForums.com If your not gonna help me out stay away!

[dnc101]

A disciple is someone who studies and learns under a 'master'. The disciple would faithfully learn the masters art, his methods, principles, possibly even his moral code and/or ideologies. Descipleship implies a deeper level of commitment than just a student or follower. To use the term any other way is incorrect (refer to ST00's reply).

[ShaolinTiger00]

The disciple would faithfully learn the masters art, his methods, principles, possibly even his moral code and/or ideologies. Descipleship implies a deeper level of commitment than just a student or follower.

You've just joined a cult.

and you called me incorrect. ohhh the irony..

[SaMantis]

What's wrong with being in a cult? You get instant friends, you never have to worry about what to wear every morning, haircuts are a thing of the past, and everybody gets new white sneakers and all the Kool-Aid they can drink. Heck, you don't even have to do pesky stuff like think for yourself!

See ya later, I'm late for my mass wedding. ;)

p.s. - eric, I believe Gene Ching is a disciple of a Shaolin monk, as is russbo at russbo.com. Try posting in the Shaolin Kung Fu section or visit the above site, you can get a lot of information (fact-based rather than rumor-based) that way.

[dnc101]

Don't get your knickers in a twist- I was refering him back to your post because you are correct. I'm agreeing that it is poor grammar.

As for the cult thing, all cults probably have disciples, but all desciples aren't necessarily in cults. The only cult I know of that didn't have any disciples was the one I tried to start. Every one thought I was disagreeing with them and left! :)

[joedoe]

I took up discipleship with my current sifu's father. It wasn't a cult - we only had to shave our heads once, and wear purple robes every 3rd Saturday of each month :D

Seriously though, I wouldn't have called it a cult. It was just a formalisation of the relationship between the student and the teacher.

[Sho]

It's almost a synonym for apprenticeship.

[patriot]

Jesus had a 12 disciple-cult?

[Shaolin brother]

Hello

This is the first time on the forum and a big hello all to all.

My question is about discipleship.

Why is there a disciple concept in the first place?

Back in China in the 1900's what was the structure and values of been a disciple?

Today in our modern society do kung fu traditional schools still have exactly the same standards as in China in the 1900's.

For those who are or have been a disciple what is teh up side and down side of this type of relationship?

Anyone have any tips and advice about this please feel free to share.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Desciple was used way back then, but today they use other terms for it. Sucky and brown nose come to mind.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52SCDmFx-7c&feature=PlayList&p=4019BE0532FEBBAE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

[David Jamieson]

Hello

This is the first time on the forum and a big hello all to all.

My question is about discipleship.

Why is there a disciple concept in the first place?

Back in China in the 1900's what was the structure and values of been a disciple?

Today in our modern society do kung fu traditional schools still have exactly the same standards as in China in the 1900's.

For those who are or have been a disciple what is teh up side and down side of this type of relationship?

Anyone have any tips and advice about this please feel free to share.

When you learn an art, you learn from a teacher and mentor.
If you are especially good and eager to learn, then it is generally a good bet that you will carry the art forward upon the demise of the current master.
that distinction is recognized through and act of acceptance that is mutual, and that falls within a framework of passing the art of one to another as well as maintaining the standards for cultivation of it.

that's not something you just dole out to anybody, because you basically can't just give an art to someone who doesn't have the focus to gain it and redistribute it.

discipleship serves in the manner that it keeps the art vital and not just tossed around in bits and pieces by uncaring and ignorant people.

It is a contract.

[Ray Pina]

In reality, even the term "sifu" was used for students who lived with their teacher. The relationship was more personal and demanding. Discipleship was literally like being adopted. You were now family, and were subject to all the responsibilities that comes with being a family member.

[TenTigers]

In reality, even the term "sifu" was used for students who lived with their teacher.
Untrue. In reality, the term, "Sifu" is used under quite a few circumstances. And as far as only by live in students-quite often, Sifus are introduced to others by that term.
The relationship was more personal and demanding. Discipleship was literally like being adopted. You were now family, and were subject to all the responsibilities that comes with being a family member
[B]very true. But that should be the same whether you live in or not. If your Sifu is giving you the knowledge he has devoted his life to , then it is only right that you in turn, should honor that and respect it, and treat him as family[. It is only in this day and age of spoiled snotnosed children, that they see the Sifu as someone they have bought a service from, and have this feeling of entitlement. That is why I and my Sifu before me, tell students that they are not paying tuition, they are paying membership dues. Anything they get, they earn through sweat/B]

[Ray Pina]

Its true. You have to respect your teacher whether its your sifu, coach, professor, whatever you call it for the style.... but it is a completely different thing that when you're done training you stay and cook for your teacher, eat with the family, clean up, help with chores and sleep and live there. You are family.

That's different than bowing to "sifu" upon exiting the strip mall location, hopping in mom's mini-van and going back to a soft-a$$ life. My Chinese teacher would not let us call him sifu for precisely the reasons I stated. To him, a native Chinese practitioner of over 50 years, it wasn't an accurate term. No one -- most of the students were first generation Chinese American -- called him sifu. His adopted disciple daughter called him dad. She lived with him and they appeared to be constantly together. She knows more of the system them anyone. And while a small woman I wouldn't count on her hand-to-hands I've seen her best a room full of eager men with wooden swords, full contact.

There's a difference. And its important for the American to know it and recognize it. We tend to idolize and romanticize our "masters" which makes you feel obligated to be at their beckon call. Or that somehow you're a better student for being there all the time.

This is all childish. After being exposed to a very wide range of arts and systems, ranging from traditional issin-ryu to wing chun to hung gar to S Mantis to internal to BJJ to MMA... I can say, "just shut up and train." Good trainers require good athletes and vise a versa. There should be equal respect.

I know so many kung fu legends in their own mind and in reality they haven't done di(k.... for themselves as a fighter, for their students as fighters or for their system.

This could be related to another running post, that martial arts aren't just for fighting so the focus shouldn't be there. Well, maybe music isn't for listening either. And you can blow on your tuba like a dying walrus to relieve your stress.... you're not a musician though. You're a fool having your kicks.

[YouKnowWho]

what is teh up side and down side of this type of relationship?
(Down side) If your

- teacher wants you to beat your best friend up, whill you do it?
- student is in jail or on the run, will you bail him out or hide him in your house?

(Up side) Many

- teachers want to accept disciples because they wante to build up their own army (biting dogs).
- students want to become disciples because they want to be "in the pack" (safe by number, also if your teacher owns the police department, you won't have any more problem from the law for the rest of your life).

Relationship comes with responsibility.

[GeneChing]

Read our latest e-zine article, Bai Shi Ceremony - Tradition, Honor, Respect (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=907) by Brian Bruning.

There's a lot of threads on discipleship, as it is a major part of traditional kung fu. We had a hard time choosing a good one to attach this new e-zine article. For easy reference, I'm collating some of the other good threads here:
Significance of Baisi Ceremony in Hung Ga (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54200)
Shaolin Temple Discipleship (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51505)
Bai See Ceremony (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43881)
"Closed door" vs secular learning what's the difference? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44968)
Personal students or closed door student (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44386)
Secrecy and Discipleship in America (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38635)

[MysteriousPower]

Its true. You have to respect your teacher whether its your sifu, coach, professor, whatever you call it for the style.... but it is a completely different thing that when you're done training you stay and cook for your teacher, eat with the family, clean up, help with chores and sleep and live there. You are family.

That's different than bowing to "sifu" upon exiting the strip mall location, hopping in mom's mini-van and going back to a soft-a$$ life. My Chinese teacher would not let us call him sifu for precisely the reasons I stated. To him, a native Chinese practitioner of over 50 years, it wasn't an accurate term. No one -- most of the students were first generation Chinese American -- called him sifu. His adopted disciple daughter called him dad. She lived with him and they appeared to be constantly together. She knows more of the system them anyone. And while a small woman I wouldn't count on her hand-to-hands I've seen her best a room full of eager men with wooden swords, full contact.

There's a difference. And its important for the American to know it and recognize it. We tend to idolize and romanticize our "masters" which makes you feel obligated to be at their beckon call. Or that somehow you're a better student for being there all the time.

This is all childish. After being exposed to a very wide range of arts and systems, ranging from traditional issin-ryu to wing chun to hung gar to S Mantis to internal to BJJ to MMA... I can say, "just shut up and train." Good trainers require good athletes and vise a versa. There should be equal respect.

I know so many kung fu legends in their own mind and in reality they haven't done di(k.... for themselves as a fighter, for their students as fighters or for their system.

This could be related to another running post, that martial arts aren't just for fighting so the focus shouldn't be there. Well, maybe music isn't for listening either. And you can blow on your tuba like a dying walrus to relieve your stress.... you're not a musician though. You're a fool having your kicks.

I have seen this as a phenomenon among people of European descent. The United States is such a new country that these people lack long standing traditions besides turkey on Thanksgiving. They get introduced to this cool Kung Fu scene and "thousands of years" of traditions and it makes them feel special. "I want to be a disciple and have this cool background that will make me standout amongst other Euroamericans.".

[SPJ]

Jesus had 12 disciples.

Confusicous or kong fu zi had 72 disciples but over 3000 students.

---

disciples are lucky few, with more one on one times

the teacher may teach different things to different disciples based on their talents and specialty

such as dong hai chuan taught differen skills to his ba gua disciples.

--

only seeing the up side

down side may be that you have to continue or carry on whatever--

even thou some may choose not to

--

[jo]

Nowaday, it lets "sifu" establish levels or "gates" of discipleship, each which cost more than the next.

Its all about the cash.

-jo

[David Jamieson]

Nowaday, it lets "sifu" establish levels or "gates" of discipleship, each which cost more than the next.

Its all about the cash.

-jo

Ha!

Indeed, it can be and if it is, then where is the value?

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

An exert from Gene's Article:

"With the conclusion of the Bai Shi ceremony, the student and Master are connected through an "adoption" or a formal extension of his family unit, in which the "inner door student" is officially recognized as the next generation in the lineage of the Master.

The ceremony signifies the student's commitment to the school, to the founder, to his master and to his kung fu "brothers and sisters,"


What happens if a Disciple shame's his Master?

Is there a formal way of getting rid of him?

[SPJ]

bai shi usually is a private event or just family/school member only.

however, if some disciple or student did not follow school rules or men gui

there will be punishment according to the gate rules

and yes, they can be thrown out of school.

zhu chu shi men 逐出师门

thrown out of the teacher's door.

wai shi di zi or outdoor disciple is different, they did not bai shi, they are not indoor thus not bound by the rules as much.

however, some general rules also apply to outdoor students.

indoor or inner room/courtyard: closer students

outdoor or outer room/courtyard: distant students

just like the architecture of old chinese houses/mansions

---

this applies to all trades of profession including kung fu

--

[GeneChing]

That's not 'my' article, it's Brian Bruning's. Please give credit to our author. I may have published it but be sure to give Brian face for his work.

As for your question, yes. There are formal rituals to cast out a member. Traditionally, most of them involved beating the crap out of them. Many clans had formal punishment systems. Those are less universal, more secular.

Last year, I had the rare honor of being a witness at a re-acceptance ceremony for Alvin Raul Cardona. He had been cast out of Lily Lau's Eagle Claw system seven years before and worked to make amends ever since. I wrote about that in Legends of Kung Fu: Chin Woo Reboots Taiji Legacy in our 2009 November/December issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=845).

[lkfmdc]

Among many of the Cantonese, it was NOT a "private event", they frequently put ads in the newspapers announcing it. Of course, it also has to have "witnesses" from the established Wu Lin or it doesn't count

Traditionally, getting kicked out often mean getting "off'ed" as in KILLED. I have several letters from my sifu where he alludes to the "rules of the under ground" and discusses punishment. Trust me, you don't want to read them :D

[GeneChing]

I was at Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's first disciple ceremony (see Dr. Yang and his Disciples
in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797)) which was invitation only, but I was invited as a reporter to announce it all, just like lkfmdc says.

Doesn't Murray's The Origins of the Tiandihui list some of the Hongmen punishments? Some lineages are tongs, so you don't really want to dishonor them.

[lkfmdc]

I was at Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's first disciple ceremony (see Dr. Yang and his Disciples
in our 2009 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797)) which was invitation only, but I was invited as a reporter to announce it all, just like lkfmdc says.

Doesn't Murray's The Origins of the Tiandihui list some of the Hongmen punishments? Some lineages are tongs, so you don't really want to dishonor them.

One of my favorite punishments from the "under ground" - red hot nail though the tongue! yummy!

Also, tying all four limbs up and together and dropping you arse first on top of a large wooden spike!

I know several "tianddihui" books with whole lists of nasty stuff

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Hi Gene, my error, I really liked Brian Brunings article.

Thanks for your feedback also, I like those methods Of outcasting "farn gwut jais" who have bought shame to their Master themselves and their school.

Sometimes though beating them doesn't work cause they are weak and gutless, so name and shame is also an option...

[YouKnowWho]

"rules of the under ground"

Such as "三刀六洞 - 3 stabs to make 6 holes". The worst part is you have to do it to yourself.

[bamboozled]

Hi everyone,

For the peeps that had actually gone through the baisi ceremony..how has it changed your life, for better or for worse? What positive or negative consequences? Any surprises? Any unexpected strain or strengthening of your relationship with your sifu?

Thanks.

[YouKnowWho]

Any unexpected strain or strengthening of your relationship with your sifu?

You will become your teacher's biting dog. You will bite whoever that your teacher wants you to bite. If someone says something bad about your teacher, your teacher will send you to beat that person up even that person may be your best friend.

[ngokfei]

Discipleship is a real headache in that there is so many who abuse its true meaning.

what really taints it is the $$$ that always gets involved.

My 1st traditional sifu refused to bai si anyone. He basically said that it would not be understood or followed correctly. He mentioned how even in China it was abused and in the end didn't mean anything.

Practice more.

[thelegend731]

Discipleship is very necessary in martial arts. A mentor figure is usually needed to progress in life in general successfully. In order to impart maximum lessons and values from a martial art, I believe a strong, responsible, and knowledgeable mentor is crucial.

I think a personal relationship is a very valuable component in this respect. However, are such quality instructors and masters available today? That is debateable..

[Immortal_Dragon]

Lets see...where to begin. Well I will say Discipleship had honor and purpose back in the day. There was a definite friendship or maybe even a father/son relationship when you had a "sifu". I think the formal purpose of having disciples is to pass on what is taught from one generation to the next. However.....

In today's standards, Discipleship has a different concept. I think really what it boils down to is money. There are all kinds of discipleship ceremonies these days. Either way, I can't help to roll my eyes now when I read something about martial art "disciples". I am sure the titles, names and even the mudd gets thrown around by these creations. I can only imagine what kind of political fall out comes with the territory. Either way looking back at personal experience, I wasted a lot of time trying to become a disciple myself. "Disciples" are a dime a dozen now a days.

[Keng Lee]

hello every one and hskwarrior it is Keng again I have really important question for everyone I want to be a disciple of my teacher Grandmaster Wu what steps should i take to getting this done?

Hskwarrior you said I should ask Grandmaster Wu right?

[hskwarrior]

This is only my opinion.

You should mention somehow that you are interested in becoming a disciple. That is the first step. Now, this master knows your intentions. it may take time before he answers. however, he is watching, observing, looking too see if you are worthy of such an honor.

Its not something to take lightly. that is if you're deteremined. some people here on this forum don't believe in what you are asking. they are the types who go from teacher to teacher looking for more knowledge.

the choice is up to you.

[Keng Lee]

i wud like to follow Grandmaster Wu forever and do his kung fu only so I will mention it to him. I saw on a movie the student bow and give the master tea and thats it

[hskwarrior]

money too....

[Keng Lee]

how much money is reasonable?

[hskwarrior]

i can't speak on that one.

[Keng Lee]

maybe i sell my bike and tv and raise 400 dollars?

[hskwarrior]

since im helping whats my cut? hahaha JK

[Keng Lee]

i have a nice bicycle and a working television and a nintendo 64 i think if i sell that stuff i can get 400 dollard

[hskwarrior]

sure. but i don't think you need that much money to do that.

[Keng Lee]

well if anyone else out there can help me know what to do exactly please write

[Violent Designs]

a red pocket for formality.

and take your sifu out to a nice dinner, lots of wine and meats, haha.

[TenTigers]

you first approach an intermediary, someone who is a friend or associate of your Sifu, who can then speak to your Sifu, rather than approaching him directly. He will then find out how and what is required for Bai-Si. This way you know you will do it correctly. This is the traditional method.

[mooyingmantis]

It depends on the teacher, but some expect thousands of dollars. One Chinese sifu I know of expects you to host and pay for an entire banquet, plus give him a red envelope.

$999 is one traditional gift amount given during a bai si.

[knockabout]

I thought traditionally if you become a disciple of a sifu they would take you in without money? Or am I brain washed from watching too many kung fu movies? I thought it was more like a father son relationship with no money involved.

[David Jamieson]

Give it some thought.

Money represents something right? It represents your labours and how much you have given of yourself in order to gain it.

So, consider that when you consider the worth of the master you are seeking to learn from.

There are some traditional numerological ideas around the amount.
108$ and so on as an example.

It is essentially what can you afford to engage the teacher and fulfill his needs as well as maintain your own.

Throwing yourself into poverty to learn how to not be impoverished is not common sense.

So, bai si is a serious thing too. Well, I guess it depends on the intention of all involved and whether or not the ceremony is some superfluous thing to them or not. I'm guessing it is not with the teacher you are pursuing.

Common sense, dignity and respect. The marks of a learned man. :)

[lkfmdc]

you need to invest in the proper clothing

http://images.imagestate.com/Watermark/FL6338.jpg

[LSWCTN1]

This guy HAS to be a troll...

[lkfmdc]

This guy HAS to be a troll...

I resemble that remark :mad:

[SteveLau]

It depends on the teacher, but some expect thousands of dollars. One Chinese sifu I know of expects you to host and pay for an entire banquet, plus give him a red envelope.

$999 is one traditional gift amount given during a bai si. by mooyingmantis


If bai si requires taking such a step or similar, I strongly suggest not to become disciple of this teacher. A good teacher today will not requires a person to go through such nonsense.




KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

Don't give cash. In the old time, one ounce of gold will be proper. Don't ask your teacher. Ask one of his disciples as a middle person.

[hskwarrior]

I say ask your sifu forget the middle man. who needs a middle man? if you want to become his disciple why should he learn you do from someone else?

[Drake]

this guy has to be a troll...

shhhhhhhh!!!!

[YouKnowWho]

I say ask your sifu forget the middle man. who needs a middle man? if you want to become his disciple why should he learn you do from someone else?

I'm talking about the money part. Some teacher didn't want to talke about money.

When you ask an instructor how much he will charge to be his disciple, if the teacher said "$100", you may think it's too cheap and look down on his skill level. If he said, "$5000", you may think he is greedy. It's a lose-lose situation for a teacher to answer how much money that he wants from you.

[hskwarrior]

on that i can agree wicha!

[unyma]

It depends on the teacher, but some expect thousands of dollars. One Chinese sifu I know of expects you to host and pay for an entire banquet, plus give him a red envelope.

$999 is one traditional gift amount given during a bai si.

Why $999, I thought 8's were the lucky number. Wouldn't $888 be more appropriate?

[TenTigers]

Why $999, I thought 8's were the lucky number. Wouldn't $888 be more appropriate?

mine goes to eleven, so it would be $111111.

[GeneChing]

I'm merging this thread with an older discipleship thread.

I'm also linking it to an article I wrote on the topic for my first master, Wing Lam. See On Discipleship (http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/64).

[MasterKiller]

Disciple this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mK7dzyUkM

[B.Tunks]

You shouldn't ask to become a disciple. You should be invited.

[rachard1583]

The approach is really to just keep it simple and follow some basic principles when practicing.


russian martial arts (http://www.kgb-militaryschool.com/view/video )

[SPJ]

money for the teacher

it is called shu xio.

usually enough for covering his time, food, traveling, or some accommadation

room and board, sort of

and some extra

how much extra depending on your good will or xin yi.

---

:cool:

[SPJ]

the teacher may have many and many students

but only one or just a few disciples.


Li shu wen the spear of god never took in disciple, but only had students.

until one day he broke his rule and took in the first disciple, which was huo dian ge.

huo was body guard for pu yi the last emperor of china and of qing dynasty

---

:cool:

[omarthefish]

David Jamieson has been on spot, IMO, all around on this thread. From pluses and minuses to the comments on how much money to give.


how much money is reasonable?

The rule of thumb, for my teacher anyways ... at least the advice I give folks who are trying to answer this question with regards to bai si with my teacher, is that it the specific amount depends on your own financial circumstances. It should be enough that you feel like you are being really generous and extravagant but not so much that it becomes a real financial burden.

$500 might be a pretty sizeable sum for a college student working to get through school. OTOH, if you own a mid-sized business and make 6 figures/year, $500 would be a pretty cheezy, cheapskate gift.

Oh, an avoid unluckey numbers. ie. basically anything with a 4 in it. 6's, 8's and 9's are all good, especially 8's which represent growth and development and 9's which represent longevity and stability.

On privacy, I'd say yes and no. IME, they are invitation only but those inviations could include a hell of a lot of people. My bai si was incorporated into part of Shifu's 60'th birthday. In China, 60, 70, 80 etc, B-days are particularly big deals so there were tons of his other students past and present there along with their family and friends. It was a dinner banquet of probably at least 100 people with 2 disciples accepted towards the end of dinner.

Plus: Felt like a really big deal, lots of witnesses, very formal and easy to remember exactly how long I have been with him.

Minus: Forced me to get so drunk from accepting toasts of congratulations from all my new "brothers" that I nearly had to be carried home. :p

[Eric_H]

You shouldn't ask to become a disciple. You should be invited.

I disagree. It takes a man to stand up and say what he wants and speak his mind. If the Sifu rejects you so be it, but to wait and hope if discipleship is your goal - that's a losing game for everybody.

[SteveLau]

Yep. It is alright for either side to take the initiative in establish the sifu-disciple relation.



KC
Hong Kong

[B.Tunks]

I disagree. It takes a man to stand up and say what he wants and speak his mind. If the Sifu rejects you so be it, but to wait and hope if discipleship is your goal - that's a losing game for everybody.

In my opinion a real man doesn't give a sh.it about or chase such such things and just trains.

[Violent Designs]

If you're sifu is training you even when you're not a "disciple" and training you legitimately, what do you really fear?

[TenTigers]

If you are training hard, and diligent, and....you have the right temperment, then your Sifu will be aware of it.
If you have ego issues, feelings of entitlement, etc you can forget it.

[TenTigers]

In my opinion a real man doesn't give a sh.it about or chase such such things and just trains.

YEAH! Real Men dig trains!!


trains are cool....




pulling a train is even cooler...

[SPJ]

you may be a student for many teachers

but you can only be a disciple for one teacher and carry his name sort of.

--

:)

[David Jamieson]

You can never be a great leader until you learn to be a great follower.

They share the same traits and to be a great leader, you must understand all the virtues of being a great follower.

as leader you must be humble, you must serve and you must obey your people.

discipleship is like this. It is the recognition that in order for something worthwhile to continue, it must be handed to someone else. You don't want to hand information and knowledge to someone who doesn't respect themselves, understand themselves, is a general dullard, lazy or not in possession of the simple virtue of mindfulness.

you never know what someone else is thinking, but their actions are fairly clear indicators of overall intention.

:)

[TenTigers]

"A student will search for a Master for ten years.
A Master will test his student for Ten years."
-or something like that..
Bottom line is, look at love relationships. People meet, date, get married, and in several years of living closely together, discover things about each other that they never knew. ("Boy, ya think ya know someone!")

What makes people think the teacher/student relationship is any different?
Students come in on their best behavior-"The Honeymoon Stage"
It is only after awhile, under stress and time, that their true colors come out.

"Yi ji hao meen, but ji sum." You can know/see a man's speech and face, but not his heart.

In some cases, discipleship comes at a point where it is inevitable. The student and teacher have been together for a long time, have a close bond of trust, and at that point, it is almost just a formality.

[GeneChing]

It's about taking vows. Some people today don't stick to vows. Just look at the divorce rate now or even how well people adhere to their New Year's resolutions. Some people are even get their tattoos erased now. To become a disciple is to take a vow of lifelong commitment. It's not a step for everyone. What's more, contrary to popular belief, it does not raise or lower your status within the wulin. Many might use it for marketing their schools or inflating their reputations, but that's really delusional on their behalf and on the behalf of those who are suckered in by such ploys.

If you want to become a disciple of someone, it's a very personal decision. To quote Crowley, "Do as thou wilt."

[David Jamieson]

Only ~G could somehow tie Thelema to this. lol

good one though! :p

[TenTigers]

Only ~G could somehow tie Thelema to this. lol

good one though! :p
Hermetics, Gung-Fu and a Mason?
Your knowledge knows no bounds, sir!:cool:

[GeneChing]

Where's hskwarrior? ;)

[David Jamieson]

Hermetics, Gung-Fu and a Mason?
Your knowledge knows no bounds, sir!:cool:

funny how that works isn't it?
the more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually know.
stupid reality :mad:

:p

[Lucas]

well in my reality the more i learn the larger my penus gets...i had to stop learning cuz i was starting to scare the ladies.

[Violent Designs]

well in my reality the more i learn the larger my penus gets...i had to stop learning cuz i was starting to scare the ladies.

what style teach me

i will carry on ur discipleship through give birth to many children.

[bawang]

he takes my wombat combat online course

[Lucas]

he takes my wombat combat online course

Yep. yu got to zign up for Bawang online courses. just be careful not to learn toooo much

[Violent Designs]

Yep. yu got to zign up for Bawang online courses. just be careful not to learn toooo much

f*ck bawang. i'll rape a squirrle before learning from him.

[Lucas]

i'll rape a squirrle before learning from him.

funny that you mention that.......form #86 is basically that.

[Violent Designs]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qUFDMUpk9jE/TQcUXhQhZqI/AAAAAAAAoYs/wRnJrhSlsIg/s1600/reincarnation-hitler-demotivational-poster-1268085600.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Hermetics, Gung-Fu and a Mason?
Your knowledge knows no bounds, sir!:cool:

...I forgot to add...same to you and likewise, I'm sure :p

[curenado]

If it is a traditional relationship then it is a vanishing power art refining highly admirable men.

But, unfortunately Gene is right about the "all or nothing" state of it. If you see it advertised, run away. If it is offered to you honorably by one who can truly offer you something, then consider the valuue and stay - if it has value to you.

So far, we only teach for members here and there is so much to learn that the relationship, where it exists is highly beneficial - but some people remain highly independent and just "touch base" with a senior. I think if you have a general custom of austere independence, not only do you leave individual seniors or masters the liberty to select the style of rapport they see is most beneficial for each person, you allow students to learn and function in the level and way that affords them the most benefit.

If you (teachers/masters) are supposed to replace yourself before you die, then at least one such relationship is going to be a part of your experience. I do know master Don was (very proud) pleased with his "Houston black belts" which is an example of multiple disciples.

I was in that relationship, though independence was part of Mater Don's philosophy. It was not the same pale as perhaps a zen buddhist one might be. I was also twelve at that time and five of the older students also trained and guided me in various degrees.
(that was 35 years ago now - master Don is in Colorado and I am in Arkansas but going out there later this year to get my celestial pearls and lumps...)

While it was a tightly knit school to me, only some of us were there a lot of the time and the rest came at scheduled lesson and workout times. The format was open, allowing that core student group to form naturally around one or more instructors. It seemed much better for those of us who did. Being around "off schedule" involved us in many more of master's activities and teachings as well as keeping the school.

It is the disciples who are most likely to retain the master's teachings as they received them and style thier schools on the same essential priorities.
In Kung Fu, I don't know how you can get to black belt and not, ipso facto, be a disciple of the teacher who was able to really impart skill and awareness at that level - but just my perspective.

Real masters have much broader knowledge and skills to impart and are like treasures, the more so that they can teach. That really seems to strengthen the combat part of thier Kung Fu.

[GeneChing]

Discipleship Ceremony
The Promise of Continuity and Longevity of a Traditional Kung Fu
By Reza Momenan and Sarah Parker

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/7325_KFM2018-June-Cover.jpg
May+June 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1412)

[GeneChing]

Last night, Gigi and I were honored to be witnesses at Sifu Bryant Fong's Disciple Acceptance ceremony. He accepted 13 indoor and 1 outdoor disciple.

I just posted a Disciple Acceptance Ceremony for Master Bryant Fong album on our facebook page. (https://www.facebook.com/pg/Kung-Fu-Tai-Chi-Magazine-135964689362/photos/?tab=album&album_id=10157548591674363)

[GeneChing]

On taking martial vows. READ Big Brother’s Disciples (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1515) by Gene Ching

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/4703_20194503Discipleship.jpg

THREADS
Fall 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71322-Fall-2019)
Discipleship (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?55224)
Shaolin Temple Discipleship (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?51505)
Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng)
Heir to late Grandmaster Wing Kwong Lam? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70856)