What are "Heavy Hands"

[Yum Cha]

Now that we poor Australians have finally been watching free to air "UFC Wired", I've noticed they talk about "Heavy Hands" a lot.

Everybody knows what it means, and what it feels like. Generally meaning, you will get KTFO if you cop one. So I'm thinking, here amongst the cream of the full contact crop, there is still enough differentiation that some guys just excel at it above all others.

What do you think makes it? I don't know the form guide on all these fighters, is it brute strength, perfect technique, timing and targeting? Or are they just 'the strikers' by comparison? Is it something a grappler can develop as well?

And, is it any different than a similar power as maybe demonstrated by Mas Oyama, or say modern Hung Kuen?

I'm even thinking about iron palm training, not the out there stuff, just the initial hardening.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Thats a complex question...'heavy hands' is usually attached to those who at any time can knock an opponent out with one punch. Some people can do it with a accumulation of punches, but 'Heavy Hands' is meant for the power hitters. Don't confuse it with with strength...it can be attributed to any number of combinations, accuracy, speed, technique, torque, foot work, distance, counterpunching, hip movement etc...some people are naturally good at and some grapplers do become good at it...ie Dan Henderson.

There's only one way to find out if you have it....

[diego]

There's only one way to find out if you have it....
Hit a Makiwara board?.:confused:

[uki]

we masons have heavy hands, it is developed inter-dedendently with doing the work... to me it amounts simply to hitting hard, like a rock or a piece of lead...

[David Jamieson]

it's cryptic crap.

someone either can hit hard because of strength and good structure, or they can't because they lack that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's cryptic crap.

someone either can hit hard because of strength and good structure, or they can't because they lack that.

In a nutshell.
Typically boxers that hit hard naturally are said to have heavy hands, has zero to do with the size or "weight" of the hands.
It comes from the old timers that liked to "drop" their strikes ( Dempsey comes to mind) and their punches felt "heavy".

[Ray Pina]

Some guys just hit harder.

With that said, structure, mechanics and timing have a lot to do with it... I'm glad to say that teammates and guys I've fought say I have heavy hands.

Iron palm trains two things: relaxed hitting, letting the weight and mechanics do the work for you, and also conditioning your hand. But it's also static.

Hang a heavy bag, wrap your hands and get to work. The bag will make you move and you'll have to hit while moving. But it will develop power.

[IronFist]

what does it mean to "drop" a punch? (the dempsey example above)

[David Jamieson]

what does it mean to "drop" a punch? (the dempsey example above)

sinking your weight as you connect.

[Yum Cha]

What got me thinking about this is that its one of those "obscured by being common" skills.

As many people have said, some people have it, some don't.

Yet, as many people have alluded, its the result of good training.

Yet, all well trained fighters don't have it....i.e. Ali. Debatably the best fighter of our lifetime, or close enough for this purpose, who was known to have to work really hard for the power punch. He took his meals small bites at a time, not in one big Tyson-esque munch.

...and while using western examples here for a common denominator and full contact anecdotal evidence , I am making my way in a round-about fashion to TCMA...

Ray, I'm hardly surprised to hear you are tagged as having heavy hands.

I reckon the "heavyness" comes up from the ground via flat footed, rooted stances, and as mentioned before, the 'drop' to lower the centre of gravity.

I've seen leaping shots, where the attacker jumps up and in, and throws a right cross on the way down, from the elevated position, its like a looping overhand right. Its targeted at the vagas nerve on the jaw and will drop a guy if it connects, but that's not heavy hands, that's precision.

A liver shot that drops a guy is a better example.

So, my thinking is that to have heavy hands you have to hit heavy things to train, you have to learn to have a solid stance, perhaps even drop a little on impact,
you have to have the fist, wrist and arm to handle the power,
you have to have good form.

And, I don't think any of this is only relevant to western style fighting, but perhaps more emphasised under full contact conditions where you can really work it.

Another reason for TCMA to 'cowboy up' a bit.

[Boston Bagua]

ray,

Why wrap your hands?

Why not train the hands as they are going to be used in reality. Without gloves, wraps etc.?

[Lee Chiang Po]

A heavy bag is usually made of canvas, and so if you go to hitting it as hard as you can it will not be long before it starts to peel the hide off your hands. At least a thin glove would prevent that.

[goju]

ray,

Why wrap your hands?

Why not train the hands as they are going to be used in reality. Without gloves, wraps etc.?

BINGO! i couldnt agree more not to mention hand wraps are cumbersome and uncomfortable to wear

i love hand conditioning its alot of fun to do and a must if you want to fight competively i think

[uki]

Why wrap your hands?if i remember correctly... ray is a sports fighter kinda guy and sports have rules.


Why not train the hands as they are going to be used in reality. Without gloves, wraps etc.?one of the reasons i love the cold winter months is the fact that all my jackets and sweaters are long in the sleeves and help "naturally" pad the hands, wrists, and arms simply by dressing for the seasons...

i'd say if you feel your feet when you hit with your hand that you have heavy hands... the marvelous one hit wonder - sneaking comet comes around the sun. BAM!!! extinction level event. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

BINGO! i couldnt agree more not to mention hand wraps are cumbersome and uncomfortable to wear

i love hand conditioning its alot of fun to do and a must if you want to fight competively i think

Hand conditioning is fine, but if you fight competitively you will have to wrap your hands or you will never be able to train. No matter how conditioned you think your hands are, they take lots of abuse when you start doing hard sparring, bag and mitt work. In order to train daily, you need to protect your weapons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron eagle has finger poaked the correct.
I have years of Makiwara and IP training and when I do my bag work I typically do NOT wrap my hands or use gloves, unless its a canvas bag and then I will use wraps or thin bag gloves.
But when I am racking in the rounds, going for 10-15 rounds on the bag, yeah, I wrap them, but if only doing 6 rounds are so, not so much.
ON top of that if you are competing you have to get used to fighting all those rounds with gloves, while I don't like the 16OZ they do make for a great work out for your arms while doing the bag.

[Ray Pina]

ray,

Why wrap your hands?

Why not train the hands as they are going to be used in reality. Without gloves, wraps etc.?


I walk past a hanging heavy bag every time I leave my home office and go to my kitchen. I hit that thing free handed a lot. But when I'm really training, in that, it's time to train, I wrap the hands and put on boxing gloves.

1) I go to town on that thing for 8, five minute rounds. With my boxing coach on my a$$ the whole time. After round 4 or 5 you're exhausted. One bad landed punch can damage the hand or wrist and then you're out for weeks.

2) It's harder to go long rounds with gloves. They're heavy.

Truth is, I'm not worried about fist fighting. I learned down here that knives and guns can and do get pulled at anytime, anywhere. People have been shot in my local neighborhood over club bathroom lines... over nothing really but grudges.

The couple times I've been challenged verbally or confronted, I was so **** calm about the thing knowing I'd kick their a$$ they felt it. Changed their attitude. I think most people know if they're going to be doing the beating or taking it.

[uki]

I walk past a hanging heavy bag every time I leave my home office and go to my kitchen. I hit that thing free handed a lot.coolness... my last heavy bag i had filled with corn and i left it out overnight in the yard - deer ripped a hole in it and were eating.

I think most people know if they're going to be doing the beating or taking it.and other people could care less either way. :)

[Ray Pina]

One of the benefits of being single is being able to hang a heavy bag in the middle of a my chill out room. Though it would also be a great place to install a stripper pole.

[TenTigers]

-or a bike lift and rebuild a '57 Panhead.
A Les Paul leaning up against a Marshall double stack is also cool.

Heavy Hands is also an expression used in CMA referring to specific palm training. The bag is struck very relaxed, only using the weight of the hand/arm falling. The power is increased very gradually-almost unconciously. The result is the arms are light, and sensitive and responsive, quick and agile, but the hands hit heavy with shock power.

[Kevin73]

I think the term "heavy hands" gets thrown out as much as "warrior" does in MMA matches. You seem to hear it about every fighter who has a KO under his belt.

To me, when I hear "heavy hands" I think of the old time boxers who DID use hand conditioning and hitting hard objects who would break things on their opponent when they punched them. Dempsey/Marciano were known for breaking ribs, jaws, even the opponent's arms when they tried covering up.

I just don't see that in most of the top guys.

[goju]

Hand conditioning is fine, but if you fight competitively you will have to wrap your hands or you will never be able to train. No matter how conditioned you think your hands are, they take lots of abuse when you start doing hard sparring, bag and mitt work. In order to train daily, you need to protect your weapons.

my point is you cant still break your hand or damage it with it wrapped or gloved alot of mma fighters train and fight with screwed up hands and mess them up during fights because they do not do any kind of knuckle or hand conditioning

wraps and gloves will only protect you so much much

i do regular pad work and hard sparing and my knuckles are fine
the only exception being that i skip heavy bag work because i find it tedious and boring

[Ray Pina]

-or a bike lift and rebuild a '57 Panhead.
A Les Paul leaning up against a Marshall double stack is also cool.

Heavy Hands is also an expression used in CMA referring to specific palm training. The bag is struck very relaxed, only using the weight of the hand/arm falling. The power is increased very gradually-almost unconciously. The result is the arms are light, and sensitive and responsive, quick and agile, but the hands hit heavy with shock power.



I like everything about this post.... I did that kind of bag training when I trained S Mantis with Mark M. A near rock hard bag on a table with two bags suspended on the sides: back of left hand, back of right hand, left palm, right palm, back hand to left bag, back hand to right bag, punch the center suspended bag.... after 20 or 30 minutes stick your hand in the big jow jar.

I have one of those hard bags now. Its on my balcony ledge. I hit it sometimes. relaxed heavy hands. That's the key. Good points!

I have a Burns of London Marquee up against an old school Univox amp... I want a bike bad. Maybe someday when I'm grown up and mature.

[Lucas]

One of the benefits of being single is being able to hang a heavy bag in the middle of a my chill out room. Though it would also be a great place to install a stripper pole.

lol no kidding with the stripper pole. i converted my living room to a work out area, weights and heavy bag, dumped my furniture. now when i have women over its a good excuse to get them get on the floor right off the bat :D (sorry no furniture) ;)



I have one of those hard bags now.

do you still use jow?



I want a bike bad..

motor or pedal?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the term "heavy hands" gets thrown out as much as "warrior" does in MMA matches. You seem to hear it about every fighter who has a KO under his belt.

To me, when I hear "heavy hands" I think of the old time boxers who DID use hand conditioning and hitting hard objects who would break things on their opponent when they punched them. Dempsey/Marciano were known for breaking ribs, jaws, even the opponent's arms when they tried covering up.

I just don't see that in most of the top guys.

The reason we still speak of Marciano and Dempsey is because they were freaks.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

my point is you cant still break your hand or damage it with it wrapped or gloved alot of mma fighters train and fight with screwed up hands and mess them up during fights because they do not do any kind of knuckle or hand conditioning

wraps and gloves will only protect you so much much

i do regular pad work and hard sparing and my knuckles are fine
the only exception being that i skip heavy bag work because i find it tedious and boring

Considering the benefits that come from good bag work, you may want to reconsider this. I can't imagine bag work not being a core part of someone's training regiment, but to each his own.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Considering the benefits that come from good bag work, you may want to reconsider this. I can't imagine bag work not being a core part of someone's training regiment, but to each his own.

The bag is INDESPENSIBLE in solo training, it allows you to develop power, speed, endurance and foot work.
The only thing that bag doesn't do is help you develop defence and address the issue of "limbs" but there are "armed" punching bags out there like the Muay Thai clinch bag that have arms to "get in the way".
The perfect striking bag would be as dense as a 100lb sound bag (:p), have arms in the "guard" position and have legs tuff enough to kick the crap out off !!
I would pay good money for that baby !!

The HB is anything BUT boring and tedious.

[goju]

Considering the benefits that come from good bag work, you may want to reconsider this. I can't imagine bag work not being a core part of someone's training regiment, but to each his own.
for one i kick like a mule and always break them lol
and two its just not to realistic for me with pads you have a moving person you can strike a bag just sits there not fun at all for me

[goju]

the only time i use it is to train my kicks out sid eof that i do not need it for power in speed

one of the lads here spared with me and didnt note i lacked speed or power

[sanjuro_ronin]

for one i kick like a mule and always break them lol
and two its just not to realistic for me with pads you have a moving person you can strike a bag just sits there not fun at all for me

Its a serious thread ( so far), no need for childish stuff here.
I don't know ANY serious MA who does NOT use or advocate bag work.

[goju]

and the childish stuff is where?
i dont COMPLETELY see the bag as useless but there are far better things to use than that and i only tend to rely on it if i dont havce some one to train with:D

[Ray Pina]

for one i kick like a mule and always break them lol
and two its just not to realistic for me with pads you have a moving person you can strike a bag just sits there not fun at all for me

Go to a boxing gym and ask someone how to use the heavy bag. Believe it or not, there is a right way and a wrong way. The right way actually teaches you movement.

Hit the bag: one, two.

It's going to swing away from you. Circle as it comes back.... one, two, three.

Circle.

Give it a flying knee, an upper cut and a hook.

Circle.

Never let the bag touch or jam you.

Try doing that for 5 minutes, 3 rounds and build from there. That will change you. Increase your punching power, crispness and movement.

[Ray Pina]

Wish I had good jow. The place I used to go in NYC CHinatown changed owners and the jow went down the tubes.

Definitely want a chopper.

If anyone knows some good online jow I'd love to hear of it. The stuff I used to get was like magic. Decent bruises gone overnight

[sanjuro_ronin]

Go to a boxing gym and ask someone how to use the heavy bag. Believe it or not, there is a right way and a wrong way. The right way actually teaches you movement.

Hit the bag: one, two.

It's going to swing away from you. Circle as it comes back.... one, two, three.

Circle.

Give it a flying knee, an upper cut and a hook.

Circle.

Never let the bag touch or jam you.

Try doing that for 5 minutes, 3 rounds and build from there. That will change you. Increase your punching power, crispness and movement.

Great start for beginners, quite correct.
Throwing X number of punches and kicks into the bag is NOT bag work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wish I had good jow. The place I used to go in NYC CHinatown changed owners and the jow went down the tubes.

Definitely want a chopper.

If anyone knows some good online jow I'd love to hear of it. The stuff I used to get was like magic. Decent bruises gone overnight

Our very own Dale Dugas has some of the best Jow you can get Bro, get if from him.

[goju]

Go to a boxing gym and ask someone how to use the heavy bag. Believe it or not, there is a right way and a wrong way. The right way actually teaches you movement.

Hit the bag: one, two.

It's going to swing away from you. Circle as it comes back.... one, two, three.

Circle.

Give it a flying knee, an upper cut and a hook.

Circle.

Never let the bag touch or jam you.

Try doing that for 5 minutes, 3 rounds and build from there. That will change you. Increase your punching power, crispness and movement.

i know ive boxed for most of my life and i was with t'sko who have a eight time boxing champ as the coach
its still boring id much prefer thai pads because you can do more

[sanjuro_ronin]

i know ive boxed for most of my life and i was with t'sko who have a eight time boxing champ as the coach
its still boring id much prefer thai pads because you can do more

I gotta say, some of the stuff you say does NOT mesh with the experience you profess to have.

[goju]

I gotta say, some of the stuff you say does NOT mesh with the experience you profess to have.
please sanuro no do not say that i cant bare to live with the thought of such an amazing world wide known martial artist like yourself questioning my skill!!
i just cant!!!!!!:confused::confused::confused::(:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

please sanuro no do not say that i cant bare to live with the thought of such an amazing world wide known martial artist like yourself questioning my skill!!
i just cant!!!!!!:confused::confused::confused::(:(

Ok, I won't say it.....sheesh dude, you can be such a sissy at times.
:p

[goju]

Ok, I won't say it.....sheesh dude, you can be such a sissy at times.
:p
BUT YOU STILL THINK IT!!!!!! :D
besides dales supposed to mosey on down sometime to come play
if not ill finally be old enough to compete in the sabaki challenge in this coming summer so people can see me in action:D

[TenTigers]

Burns guitars are cool-cool enough for Brian may, right? And the Marquee is like a strat with a cali surfer attitude. Alot of guys are building way cool old skool choppers and bobbers from Harleys to Brit bikes (BSA, Triumphs, Nortons) and Honda 750 chops are real 70's. Pick up an issue of The Horse, which is dedicated to old skool backstreet choppers, instead of the Orange County Chopper pre-built platinum card yuppie wannabe chrome plated specials. (they are the silk PJ Shaolin wannabe's of the Chopper world)

[Yum Cha]

So, Dempsey and Louis were freaks, not well trained powerful fighters? A little of both? Going to have to do some youtube this arvo for a little research...

So, the conversation drifts towards 'how to develop' heavy hands...I guess we are taking targeting and timing for granted for the sake of the discussion? I'm a big fan of targeting, btw.

I think Uki made a good point, "You feel it in your feet." Rooting, grounding is certainly an element.

Likewise, I think looseness comes into play, Systema have a powerful loose punch. Its an internal style thing, with the concept being you transfer all your power into the target, and don't hold anything back in tenseness of your muscles.

We train with a Mui Thai striking bag. Some guys bash it and rock the holder pretty well. Other guys hit it, and it comes close to winding the holder, but doesn't rock them. Being a regular holder of the bag, this is an obvious difference in technique between the strikers. You MMA types, is this common in your world, in more dynamic situations?

Kenetic energy = 1/2 mass x speed (2). Is heavy hands kenetic energy, somehow I think yes, and something more...

Heavy Bag

Anybody who says not to work a heavy bag with wraps or gloves has either iron palmed the hell out of their hands, or never worked a heavy bag properly.

Fight like in the real world? Yea, last week I had a fight with a big fat guy with no arms or legs and a heavy canvas shirt who let me have 3 sessions of 3x3 minutes with me whacking the hell out of him until I wanted to puke. Oh, yea, he wobbled around a bit, but never hit me back.... I guess he won though, as I just couldn't hit him any longer....I swear the bas1ard was laughing at me....

I damaged my hands in my 20's with this kind of nonsense, and it wasn't until I got into the CMA camp I learned how to treat them properly.

You have to protect your weapons...bad hands have ended the career of many fighters, including Aussie Champ, Joe Fenech.

Also, I'm not sold hardened hands make heavy hands. Other than when your hands don't hurt, you wield them with more abandon. I think this is something where some of the Iron Palm guys might have some comment?

[Yum Cha]

Burns guitars are cool-cool enough for Brian may, right? And the Marquee is like a strat with a cali surfer attitude. Alot of guys are building way cool old skool choppers and bobbers from Harleys to Brit bikes (BSA, Triumphs, Nortons) and Honda 750 chops are real 70's. Pick up an issue of The Horse, which is dedicated to old skool backstreet choppers, instead of the Orange County Chopper pre-built platinum card yuppie wannabe chrome plated specials. (they are the silk PJ Shaolin wannabe's of the Chopper world)


Love my Honda VTX1800c motortrike conversion....wish the range as a bit more than 125km on a tank of petrol though. Goes like a cut snake, but.

[Boston Bagua]

Wish I had good jow. The place I used to go in NYC CHinatown changed owners and the jow went down the tubes.

Definitely want a chopper.

If anyone knows some good online jow I'd love to hear of it. The stuff I used to get was like magic. Decent bruises gone overnight


Ray,

As Sanjuro Ronin mentioned (Thanks for the kind words brother) I make and sell all manner of very strong Dit Da Jow for injuries and Iron Palm training.

Let me know how I can help you out.

be well,

Dale

[Boston Bagua]

BUT YOU STILL THINK IT!!!!!! :D
besides dales supposed to mosey on down sometime to come play
if not ill finally be old enough to compete in the sabaki challenge in this coming summer so people can see me in action:D

You mean me, or knifefighter Dale?

Always get confused.

[goju]

You mean me, or knifefighter Dale?

Always get confused.

lol well i dont think we have spoke before so im gonna go with knife fighter dale:D

[TenTigers]

Love my Honda VTX1800c motortrike conversion....wish the range as a bit more than 125km on a tank of petrol though. Goes like a cut snake, but.

nice ride. Although I'm a Harley guy, I love anything on two wheels, or three, in yuor case-love old Harley Sevicars.-so long as it's not ghey.
I have no idea what kind of mileage I get on my '73 Shovelhead. I just know that whenever I get on it, I top it off. I don't want to run out of gas. Pushing those big ol' Harleys is a sumbich.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

As Sanjuro Ronin mentioned (Thanks for the kind words brother) I make and sell all manner of very strong Dit Da Jow for injuries and Iron Palm training.

Let me know how I can help you out.

be well,

Dale

Dude, thank you all so much. If you can send me a message with a web link or how I can pay you to send me some jow I'd be stoked. It's been years since I've had good stuff. If guys here are attesting to it, I'll give it a try.

Looking for stuff to rub into my shins after taking nasty shin on shin clashes pretty much. If I had good jow I'd probably up my iron palm training too.

Thank you so much

[Ray Pina]

Great bunch of topics this week. Thanks for Jow and bike info hook ups.

I've got to settle down to write for work now but wanted to say thanks. I've posted a lot all over this board this week and some of it could appear heavy, regarding kung fu, but truth is there are some great, unique attributes to be garnered from them.

The problem I faced was the people who taught me the technology would not work with me as a fighter. They were just passers of knowledge. The guys that work with me as fighters are standardized fighters. Where before I was comfortable and successful standing right lead, but horrible on the ground..... now every one I train with insists on doing everything left forward. At first it bothered me but I've really learned to appreciate a left lead jab. What a life saver. And combinations.

I'm just starting to get back to working in the old stuff and kind of insisting for people to leave me alone when free playing. Correct technical mistakes, not stylistic differences.

Another huge lesson: Keep the freaking chin down. I'm lucky I haven't been KOed or lost any teeth.

Peace. And God bless my writing tonight.

[Boston Bagua]

Dude, thank you all so much. If you can send me a message with a web link or how I can pay you to send me some jow I'd be stoked. It's been years since I've had good stuff. If guys here are attesting to it, I'll give it a try.

Looking for stuff to rub into my shins after taking nasty shin on shin clashes pretty much. If I had good jow I'd probably up my iron palm training too.

Thank you so much

Tiger Exits the Forest (http://www.coilingdragon.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26_20&products_id=35)


this is the formula you want to use on your shins, and also for any other conditioning drills that are not iron palm training.

Iron Palm training would use another formula.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[taai gihk yahn]

Tiger Exits the Forest (http://www.coilingdragon.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26_20&products_id=35)
.

does it come w/the Da Mo egg? I'd only buy it if it came w/the Da Mo egg; I'd even just buy the Da Mo egg without the jow, if that's available!!!

:D

[Yum Cha]

nice ride. Although I'm a Harley guy, I love anything on two wheels, or three, in yuor case-love old Harley Sevicars.-so long as it's not ghey.
I have no idea what kind of mileage I get on my '73 Shovelhead. I just know that whenever I get on it, I top it off. I don't want to run out of gas. Pushing those big ol' Harleys is a sumbich.

Yea, I like Harleys well enough, for small block twins....:D

When it comes to sidecars, I always think about the old BMW / Steib combinations.

Yea, I get about 10 litres per 100km/city, bit more on the road. Thing is, out in the country, you can get 100km between drinks. Can you see the buzzard circling yet?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great bunch of topics this week. Thanks for Jow and bike info hook ups.

I've got to settle down to write for work now but wanted to say thanks. I've posted a lot all over this board this week and some of it could appear heavy, regarding kung fu, but truth is there are some great, unique attributes to be garnered from them.

The problem I faced was the people who taught me the technology would not work with me as a fighter. They were just passers of knowledge. The guys that work with me as fighters are standardized fighters. Where before I was comfortable and successful standing right lead, but horrible on the ground..... now every one I train with insists on doing everything left forward. At first it bothered me but I've really learned to appreciate a left lead jab. What a life saver. And combinations.

I'm just starting to get back to working in the old stuff and kind of insisting for people to leave me alone when free playing. Correct technical mistakes, not stylistic differences.

Another huge lesson: Keep the freaking chin down. I'm lucky I haven't been KOed or lost any teeth.

Peace. And God bless my writing tonight.

Funny thing about your "keep chin down comment", you will notice that huys that have boxed for years wlak with a noticable "hunch", you get used to keeping your chin down !!
LOL !
Its funny, even when doing bag or pad work the first thing that happens is my chin comes down and hands go up !

[Kevin73]

The reason we still speak of Marciano and Dempsey is because they were freaks.

There were other boxers that could also do things like that. Both Dempsey and Marciano trained relentlessly! How many people train like that today to get the results they achieved? I talk with an old school kenpo guy out in cali and he has lots of stories of the "old timers" power training with a makiwara and other punching methods that could crack bones with a punch and not injuring their own hands. They conditioned their hands to match their punching power, which is something most fighters don't do now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There were other boxers that could also do things like that. Both Dempsey and Marciano trained relentlessly! How many people train like that today to get the results they achieved? I talk with an old school kenpo guy out in cali and he has lots of stories of the "old timers" power training with a makiwara and other punching methods that could crack bones with a punch and not injuring their own hands. They conditioned their hands to match their punching power, which is something most fighters don't do now.

Are you saying that NO ONE else trained as hard or conditioned as much?
No, that is not the case, Dempsey and Marciano were the best of their respective times, the elite of the elite.
Osan Bolt ( SP?) is the fastest man ever ! are you saying all those other runners before him and even those running against him now don't train as hard or are as dedicated?
No, I don't think you'd say that.
Hard work + dedication+ natural skill + genetic disposition for given sport= Champion.
I am not taking anythign away from Jack and Rocky or Joe or Sugar Ray, but to insinuate that they were the best because they simple trained harder than anyone else or were more dedicated is an insult to all the other fighters of their time, it is also very unrealistic and creates unrealistic expectations for younger atheltes.

[Frost]

Funny thing about your "keep chin down comment", you will notice that huys that have boxed for years wlak with a noticable "hunch", you get used to keeping your chin down !!
LOL !
Its funny, even when doing bag or pad work the first thing that happens is my chin comes down and hands go up !

And if the same guys have done a lot of clinch work/neck wrestling and are used to shrugging their shoulders up all the time they can look real freaks lol :D

[Ray Pina]

Its funny, even when doing bag or pad work the first thing that happens is my chin comes down and hands go up !

I can say I have that habit now but when I get tired I resort back to smelling the flowers in the air.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And if the same guys have done a lot of clinch work/neck wrestling and are used to shrugging their shoulders up all the time they can look real freaks lol :D

Don't get me started on those southern mantis guys either !

[SPJ]

Now that we poor Australians have finally been watching free to air "UFC Wired", I've noticed they talk about "Heavy Hands" a lot.

Everybody knows what it means, and what it feels like. Generally meaning, you will get KTFO if you cop one. So I'm thinking, here amongst the cream of the full contact crop, there is still enough differentiation that some guys just excel at it above all others.

What do you think makes it? I don't know the form guide on all these fighters, is it brute strength, perfect technique, timing and targeting? Or are they just 'the strikers' by comparison? Is it something a grappler can develop as well?

And, is it any different than a similar power as maybe demonstrated by Mas Oyama, or say modern Hung Kuen?

I'm even thinking about iron palm training, not the out there stuff, just the initial hardening.

nobody is interested in watching a fight that starts and ends with a single punch and KO.

b/c it is over the second it starts.

so we need drama, beaten down, got up and counter and won in the end

sort of twist and turn

then we are savoring all these moments of defeat, return, overcome and triumph

sort of mimicking events of our mundane life

then we will fork our money for the tickets.

--

[TenTigers]

nobody is interested in watching a fight that starts and ends with a single punch and KO.

b/c it is over the second it starts.

so we need drama, beaten down, got up and counter and won in the end

sort of twist and turn

then we are savoring all these moments of defeat, return, overcome and triumph

sort of mimicking events of our mundane life

then we will fork our money for the tickets.

--

I am just the opposite. I hate to see a fight go on and on for many rounds. I especially hate any fight that is won by decision.
I like to watch guys like Tyson drop someone a minute into the first round.
I look at boxing, or any sport fight as fighting. It should be fast, hard, and brutally effective. Otherwise, something's wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am just the opposite. I hate to see a fight go on and on for many rounds. I especially hate any fight that is won by decision.
I like to watch guys like Tyson drop someone a minute into the first round.
I look at boxing, or any sport fight as fighting. It should be fast, hard, and brutally effective. Otherwise, something's wrong.

I agree, while a long fight may have more chance to see some very cool stuff, there is something awesome about someone knocking some's head off into the crowd at 1:25 of the first round !

[Ray Pina]

I use to feel the same way but now I actually enjoy prolonged matches, it means the fighters are more closely matched and it comes down to will... which is what I enjoy and learn from the most these days.

[Pork Chop]

Dude, thank you all so much. If you can send me a message with a web link or how I can pay you to send me some jow I'd be stoked. It's been years since I've had good stuff. If guys here are attesting to it, I'll give it a try.

Looking for stuff to rub into my shins after taking nasty shin on shin clashes pretty much. If I had good jow I'd probably up my iron palm training too.

Thank you so much

Dude, for shin stuff, I've had a lot more success with Namman Muay (http://www.amazon.com/Namman-Muay-Athletes-Liniment-Recovery/dp/B001ON8ZN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1253299465&sr=1-1) than I ever had with dit da jow. And i've tried various forms of ddj homemade by various folks - from respected herbalists to old school sifus, none of it's worked like the Thai stuff for my shins.

[Lucas]

Dude, for shin stuff, I've had a lot more success with Namman Muay (http://www.amazon.com/Namman-Muay-Athletes-Liniment-Recovery/dp/B001ON8ZN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1253299465&sr=1-1) than I ever had with dit da jow. And i've tried various forms of ddj homemade by various folks - from respected herbalists to old school sifus, none of it's worked like the Thai stuff for my shins.

we have a minor thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=959486#post959486) about that oil.

[Ray Pina]

Good looking out.

[Yum Cha]

A comment made about conditioning the hands, hardening the hands....

I'm not sold that 'heavy hands' and conditioned hands are the same thing. I think heavy hands is more a full body mechanical thing, than just 'sharpened edges'.

i.e. some people say, though I've never tried, that an open hand slap can knock you out cold as easy as a fist, if delivered properly. Not a penetrating force, but to bounce the brain off the skull, penetration isn't required.

Likewise, for the tcma crowd, 'sinking power' Chum Lik, makes your hands very heavy.

[Kevin73]

Are you saying that NO ONE else trained as hard or conditioned as much?
No, that is not the case, Dempsey and Marciano were the best of their respective times, the elite of the elite.
Osan Bolt ( SP?) is the fastest man ever ! are you saying all those other runners before him and even those running against him now don't train as hard or are as dedicated?
No, I don't think you'd say that.
Hard work + dedication+ natural skill + genetic disposition for given sport= Champion.
I am not taking anythign away from Jack and Rocky or Joe or Sugar Ray, but to insinuate that they were the best because they simple trained harder than anyone else or were more dedicated is an insult to all the other fighters of their time, it is also very unrealistic and creates unrealistic expectations for younger atheltes.

Name one of today's boxing champions that hits things without his wraps on or soaks them to toughen them up and condition the hand to withstand being able to punch full power without a glove?

I'm not talking about overall training and who does more of what, I AM talking about DIFFERENT training methods that old timers put alot of time and effort into that today's fighters don't do. Again, how many of today's fighters condition their hands for punching?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Name one of today's boxing champions that hits things without his wraps on or soaks them to toughen them up and condition the hand to withstand being able to punch full power without a glove?

I'm not talking about overall training and who does more of what, I AM talking about DIFFERENT training methods that old timers put alot of time and effort into that today's fighters don't do. Again, how many of today's fighters condition their hands for punching?

You may have missed my point.

[MasterKiller]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/2069629715_8df21a4e01.jpg

[Yum Cha]

...looks like we have a winner!

[TaichiMantis]

...looks like we have a winner!

ding!ding!ding!


I'm not sold that 'heavy hands' and conditioned hands are the same thing. I think heavy hands is more a full body mechanical thing, than just 'sharpened edges'.

i.e. some people say, though I've never tried, that an open hand slap can knock you out cold as easy as a fist, if delivered properly. Not a penetrating force, but to bounce the brain off the skull, penetration isn't required.

Likewise, for the tcma crowd, 'sinking power' Chum Lik, makes your hands very heavy.

I agree