Wing Chun sparring

[kungfublow]

Hello All!

This is my first post here but I have been reading this forum for some time. I have been studying Wing Chun for 3 years now. I have a question that I hope the more experienced people will be able to answer. I have spent a fair amount of time watching videos on youtube and everytime I see two Wing chun people sparring it tends to look like two people just swinging at each other. Where are all the techniques? I see tons of chain punching but no fook sao, or tan, or kwan........ Are these people just untrained and are unable to use their Wing Chun the way it was designed or do most technigues fall apart under pressure? So I guess I'm asking why most Wing chun when pressure tested looks like just constant chain punching. Maybe I'm not seeing the right videos though.

I'm looking foward to everyone's thoughts on this. Can anyone post videos where someone is using good Wing Chun under a high pressure situation?

Thanks to all!

[Vajramusti]

The U tube is not an accurate sample of reality. Suggest making the effort and visiting a top flight school when there is "sparring" going on. So called chain punching when done right is a developmental tool -NOT to be overdone in sparring.
Lots of bad wing chun on u tube. I am sure you will get noise and more opinions.

joy chaudhuri.

[goju]

theres ALOT of real bad wing chun

lets face it the majority of wc practioners cant apply there style

but with that said neither can the majority of other martial artists as well most people do train in a unrealistic manner, most people do not train hard enough and most peoples martial training will fly out the window in an actual fight

being that we live in a modern society where martial arts arent used for survival as they were in the old days its not suprising there is alack of quality practioners

does wing chun work? yes i would find it hard believe that the shaolin temple wanted to create a style that worked well against others and could be learned in a quicker amount of time but in the end ended up making a martial art that doesnt actually work:D:D

[Lee Chiang Po]

There is a fascination today with video. The stuff you see on utube is mostly young people that are only half trained in their chosen style, and they have not actually trained or practiced long and hard enough to show the skills you seek. These same people have the notion that fighting is learning, but it really isn't. I suppose that you do learn a few things when fighting, like not getting too close, or when you should have ran, but in most cases learning stops when you leave your training space. You only get to apply what you have learned when you fight, and very little of anything else as far as technique. If you talk to most seriously skilled people they will tell you that they have spent a great portion of their lives training and working with a partner doing repititious moves over and over until they can do then in their sleep and under any condition, such as fight stress. You need to work with a partner as much and as often as you can so that you learn timing and such. That is where you learn, not sparring in a ring or street fighting.
When you do see serious fighting skills being demonstrated there is always the guys that question it because the guy is not fighting a resisting opponent. This is silly because when a person is resisting he stops usually as soon as he catches a fist in the face or neck. These same people seem to think that fighting is learning. It isn't. It is applying what has been previously learned. It was suggested that you visit a good kwoon and watch some of these people sparing or applying technique. You can ask the skill level and probably get to see some really good technique being used. You can find some good stuff on utube, but on average you only find stuff that is in name only.

[anerlich]

This is my first post here but I have been reading this forum for some time.

If so, then you miraculously missed the considerable number of older posts closely related to the subject of this thread.

[k gledhill]

check out ..http://www.philippbayer.net/ he has several videos of shparink ;)

[Pacman]

ive seen many of these too. some people say "this is how WC will look". two people throwing punches at each other and brawling is not skilled fighitng no matter what

i think this style of fighting comes from two reasons

1. people misunderstand the strategy of overwhelming your opponent and constant attack. it really doesnt mean unloading on an opponent nonstop with no skill, but people take it as such

2. they might have some success iwth this. against another unskilled opponent, the brawler who is in better phsyical condition will win


Hello All!

This is my first post here but I have been reading this forum for some time. I have been studying Wing Chun for 3 years now. I have a question that I hope the more experienced people will be able to answer. I have spent a fair amount of time watching videos on youtube and everytime I see two Wing chun people sparring it tends to look like two people just swinging at each other. Where are all the techniques? I see tons of chain punching but no fook sao, or tan, or kwan........ Are these people just untrained and are unable to use their Wing Chun the way it was designed or do most technigues fall apart under pressure? So I guess I'm asking why most Wing chun when pressure tested looks like just constant chain punching. Maybe I'm not seeing the right videos though.

I'm looking foward to everyone's thoughts on this. Can anyone post videos where someone is using good Wing Chun under a high pressure situation?

Thanks to all!

[Paul T England]

You will not always see wing chun tools such as tan, bong, fook etc as it depends on my aspects such as range, skill, type of equipment etc.

You should see go punching and to a large extent the punch is wing chun.

Most people in most martial arts styles can't apply their art fully. But then you have to identify what applying the art means....gloved sparring or light contact or chi sau are not always good indicators.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Paul T England]

btw

Top three groups to look at in my eyes are WSL guys, Robert Chu/Alan Orr Guys and Duncan Leung guys.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[kungfublow]

Thanks for all the responses!

I was worried that all my training and hard work was just going to lead to me throwing random punches over and over again in a fight. I don't see the point of all this hard work if that's where this is leading. I can learn to fight like that on my own just by fighting. It's good to know that with dedication and lots of drill training you can make this work under pressure. That's my end goal. I'll keep up the hard work and enjoy the ride that is Wing chun. Hopefully I can get to the point where I can use all this in a real fight situation.

I totally agree that you can't learn to use your wing chun while pressure testing it. In my experience with this there isn't time during a fight exchange to worry about what technique I am going to use and when I am gonig to use it. I would think this needs to be like a reflex. You feel something then react to it. I think that this can only be achieved by drilling until your body just reacts in any given situation on it's own without thinking about it. Then there would be a different set of things to work on during fighting. Things like timing and distance. I don't think during sparring a person should be worried about how to apply technique. They should just be able to do it without thinking about it .

[Yoshiyahu]

Wonderful Post. Excellent summary. I think right now this is one of the better threads up and running.

I enjoyed the many explanations on why WC doesn't look like WC when it is applied by young inexeperience fighters on Television. Have you seen the footage of Bruce Lee applying WC on a rooftop. Like a Beimo. I think it would be a good idea if you guys on here could get together and film a video of WC being applied.

I would love to see that?

[m1k3]

Morning y'all.

I just wanted to jump in with a little discussion on sparring. Sparring is a training tool much like drills or pad work or hitting the bag, it is not fighting. The only way to know how you will look in a fight is to get in one. And remember, how you look in that fight is only how you look against that particular person at that particular time.

Sparring is a good way to test what you have learned, under pressure in a controlled environment. There are many levels of sparring from very light contact to rather heavy contact and from one step you attack and I counter to continuous sparring. All of it is good. The closer you get fight like conditions, heavy contact continuous sparring the better you will be able to judge your strengths and weaknesses in a fight.

Of course some people spar simple because it is a fun way to bang on each other with out getting in trouble for it.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Youtube.
Youtube seems to be fine for well know masters to show off their demos and forms, but for some reason the real fighting doesn't show up there, strange eh?
RE: Sparring.
Sparring can be as close to the real thing or as far away as YOU CHOOSE to make it.

[Knifefighter]

This thread is a perfect example of why you don't see the things you think you should see from WC in actual fighting and why the majority of people who train WC cannot use their techniques effectively.

It has nothing to do with Utube or most WC people not learning "proper" WC (despite what some clueless "masters" will tell you).

The fact is real fighting will look nothing like the way WC is "supposed" to look.

[Knifefighter]

Top three groups to look at in my eyes are WSL guys, Robert Chu/Alan Orr Guys and Duncan Leung guys.
I think the only guys you can actually see mixing it up with outside opponents are Alan's guys. Notice how their fighting rarely resembles what most people think WC is "supposed" to look like. There's a reason for that and it's not that they've learned "poor" WC, but that effective fighting will express itself only in certain ways.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There is no skill standard to post on youtube. Less that 10% of the youtube videos have any merit at all.

[SavvySavage]

My opinion styles aren't supposed to "look" like anything at all. You train them a certain way to learn some style tricks and structure and then you apply them. You refine it till it can save your life not so that it "looks" like wing chun.

I'm throwing out two options here:
1. Understand that styles aren't really supposed to look like the way they are trained in forms.

2. For the people bad mouthing youtube and saying it's all bad wing chun: You're obviously skilled enough to bad mouth someone else's hard work. So instead of bad mouthing put up a video of yourself showing how someone as skilled as you spars with wing chun.

I think that both my options won't be liked by most especially the supposed skilled people who "know" what wing chun is and how it should be applied.

Sanjuro Ronin brought up a good point. You guys will put up a thousand forms and demo techniques but no sparring. Either you don't believe yourself to be good enough or you're afraid of being made fun of the way you are making fun of these others on youtube. Video did a good thing for kung fu. It made people look past all the BS that passes for skill.

I know I'm starting to sound like knifefighter here but I don't want to be considered in the same ilk as him(no offense, knifefigher). I am not demanding a video from anyone really. I'm saying that if you're good enough to make fun of vids on youtube than you should be good enough to put up a good video to show everyone on youtube...or stop crap talking.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Styles ARE supposed to look like styles. Boxing looks like the boxing (that's trained) when under pressure from a skilled resisting opponent; so does wrestling, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ, karate, judo, sambo, TKD, etc.

But when your style only begins to look like what you train once you're within 30 inches of your opponent - then getting there may entail your style looking like something else, ie.- boxing, kickboxing, etc...(as is often the case when wing chun sparring/fighting takes place)...

If you're up against a skilled resisting opponent with a solid long range game - and with enough size so that you're not going to simply overwhelm him due to your superior size.

And with the evolution of mma, even styles like "pure" wrestling, judo, BJJ, etc. will have the same longer range problem when up against a skilled striker.

[saulauchung]

I agree with Ultimatewingchun. The reason why you learn a particular style of MA is because you liked the look of it and you want to 'own' it so you can apply it. Yours may look slightly different to others because of your physique, preference, etc, but it should look fundamentally the same. Tell the JKD guys that they'll look nothing like Bruce Lee once they apply JKD moves in sparring or in a real bout and you've upset a lot of people :D

[kungfublow]

This thread is a perfect example of why you don't see the things you think you should see from WC in actual fighting and why the majority of people who train WC cannot use their techniques effectively.

It has nothing to do with Utube or most WC people not learning "proper" WC (despite what some clueless "masters" will tell you).

The fact is real fighting will look nothing like the way WC is "supposed" to look.

Why is that? What then is the point of training all the techniques and the forms? Woking on getting your tan in the right place or your bong perfect. If all these things will not be used in the real fight. What then are the things you should see from Wing chun in a real fight?

[Knifefighter]

Why is that? What then is the point of training all the techniques and the forms? Woking on getting your tan in the right place or your bong perfect. If all these things will not be used in the real fight. What then are the things you should see from Wing chun in a real fight?
Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Watch people who are skilled at real fighting doing real fighting. They will be using the techniques that work.

99.999% of techniques that work for real against resisting opponents are being used by those that regularly fight. These are the things you will see.

While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

[chusauli]

While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.


I agree. Train WCK with emphasis on application, and you see it looks like the WCK you use.

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.

The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us...and then follows by answering the question "why bother"? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT "WHY BOTHER"? IS INDEED A VALID QUESTION)....

(the implication being that he's not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that "purely visible" wing chun may not be that efficient)...

but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you've really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal...

(Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)...

But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.

Btw, go back and watch the Belfort/Silva fight and you'll see that Vitor first rocked Wanderlai with a typical boxing-like rear cross...and then...he finished him off with a chain punch attack with multiple strikes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

***VERY carefully worded and well-thought-out post here from sanjuro.
The uniqueness of wing chun MAY be visible, he tells us...and then follows by answering the question "why bother"? - (AFTER TELLING US THAT "WHY BOTHER"? IS A VALID QUESTION)....

(the implication being that he's not sure that it will be worth the effort since the end result could still be that "purely visible" wing chun may not be that efficient)...

but yet concludes by answering the question with this: IF you can make your very visible wing chun work, then you've really got something special because the very uniqueness of the style can give you a tactical advantage since very few people have seen it up close and personal...

(Remember when Vitor Belfort destroyed a great fighter like Wanderlai Silva in about 5 seconds with a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack? Remember BJJ when it first burst upon the scene in 1993 at the first UFC and in the immediate years thereafter? When virtually no one had a clue as to what Royce Gracie was doing or how to defend against it?)...

But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.

LOL !
Yes, it was carefully worded, thanks for picking up on that Victor !
Look at Machida, his unique system is what is giving him an edge right now over his opponents.
I recall the first time I sparred a Ba gau guy, the controlled sparring went in his favour, he was very hard to hit, but then he decided to try FC and there, his lack of expereicned showed and I took him out in less than 3 minutes, that said, IF I had NOT done a few ronds with him BEFORE, I probably would have had a heck of a time getting to him, he was just to different than what I had been/was exposed to.

BTW, I agree with where WC should be used ie: In a phone booth.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Couldn't agree more! (Well, forget the phonebooth ;))

...but yeah, when in close, and especially in a "street" atmosphere where there may not be much room to maneuver, wing chun can be very effective. That's the ultimate strengh (and uniqueness) that wing chun brings to the table.

And it's strength is also it's ironic weakness: because even in the "street" (and especially in a "match")...there's no guarantee that the fight will start from very close - hence the need for modifications/adaptations from any range longer than about 30 inches or so, imo.

[JPinAZ]

But I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time: wing chun's uniqueness basically begins and ends with the fight at 30 inches or less, and until then, successful wing chun against a truly skilled and resisting opponent is going to look like some variation of boxing/kickboxing.


Since I obviously have dissagreed with you on this point, I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion? Phil?

One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC's clips working out with the boxer, it didn't look like boxing/kickboxing to me.

Jonathan

[anerlich]

I would be curious to know if everyone from TWC feels this same way or has come to this same conclusion?

I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.


One of the reasons I ask is, by watching GM WC's clips working out with the boxer, it didn't look like boxing/kickboxing to me.

While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My God, Andrew...every word of that post was spot on. I applaud you! :cool: ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you. The TWC system is meant to be a launching pad, not a straitjacket.



While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.

Well said !

[Paul T England]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

[sanjuro_ronin]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

[m1k3]

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

Darn you and your use of logic! BTW, I thought Wing Chun was supposed to be easy to learn. :confused:

Fighting looks like fighting. UltimateWingChun, I disagree with your styles comment. Grappling looks like grappling no matter what the style, what makes them different is the rules they compete under. For example gi or no gi, subs or no subs. A hip throw looks the same in BJJ, Sambo, catch wrestling, free style wrestling, Greco wrestling or Judo. The only difference would be the wearing or not of a gi jacket. In other words, what handles are available to do the throw and in the case of Greco no legs used in the throw.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The way you have been trained will come out under pressure.....old school training would be pure style and thats how it would look....most people today don't train long or hard enough in a given style to make their movement look like the styles forms or mechnics. IMHO

I could smoke your average karate black belt in a full-contact sparring match in about 6 months because of the high pressure training that I went through. However, that type of match uses a strict set of techniques.

To fight in the street, you need knife defense, gun defense, empty hand defense against a stick or pole, takedown defense, basic grappling escapes, and escapes from basic holds (bear hugs, head locks, grabs, and so on). It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to develop those well enough to have an answer for anything.

This assumes about 2-3 hours of instruction per week and at least 3 hours of individual practice per week although I think that I probably did more on both counts.

[JPinAZ]

I know several people with a strong TWC background who have fought kickboxing and/or MMA extensively, as opposed to (and for a couple of them, including) the 100+ "street fights" many WC people claim, and all of them found it necessary, or at least, extremely useful, to incorporate techniques from elsewhere to work well at long range.

Thanks for the reply.
I'd agree that a lot of stuff 'works' at a long range. Same can be said for any range for that matter. My understanding of WCK is knowing what works most effectively and efficiently at the given range, facing, etc one is at (from a tools perspective).
Now, are you saying TWC does not have the necessary tools/concepts to operate from longer or pre-contact range and bridge into close range on its own? Why would they need these other things?
And, I'm not saying TWC can't do it, I've seen vids by both GM WC and Phil that make me think it does (And none of it looked like kickboxing to me as Vic advocates). I'm curious about why this issue with having to go to other sources to operate at long range? Or are talking personal preference or that they prefer to stay and fight out at that range and might need to incorporate other things because they are not intending to close the gap once the fight starts?


David Crook found his WC worked best when incorporated with CLF and Northern Sil Lum for long and medium range attacks and multidirectional defense. Victor and Sanjuro's points about confronting your opponent with an unfamiliar style are valid, if you can mix several such styles effectively you can be further advantaged. Difficult to do, maybe, but as he and several of his students, one of whom medalled in the police and fire olympics. have proved it is hardly impossible.

Rick Spain based his kicking style on Bill Wallace's. He also incorporates boxing tactics and techniques, plus the later BJJ and MMA. It's not that his TWC on its own is deficient, it's that the additions turbocharge it.

If you are ring fighting regularly, unless you are totally arrogant, or have some weird agenda of stylistic purity, you are going to hang out with your fellow competitors, swallow your pride and trade techniques and tactics and incorporate the stuff that works for you

IMO, WCK isn't a style. Sure, it has signature 'tools' that are somewhat unique looking to WCK, but thinking of WCK as a style is rather limiting. fwiw, I found it was WCK that turbocharged my overall fighting abilities, not the other way around - regardless what style I've done in the past. What turbo charged it? The concepts and principals, including the ideas of & efficiency & economy of motion.

Now, I agree, you should work out with as many different people from as many different fighting backgrounds as possible. And I see nothing wrong with using different things to get the job done as long as they are guided by principal. But I don't think you have to mix in what they are doing if what you are doing already works. It has nothing to do with pride, stylistic purity or agenda. It has to do with common sense.

WCK is about occupying your space with the strongest structure & maintaining your own CL and gravity while dominating your opponents’ gravity and taking away their structures. It’s about controlling their COM once the attack has been neutralized and then destroying what’s left of it. A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?


While William Cheung is a superb TWC technician and probably comes as close as anybody to stylistic purity under pressure, I think the phrase "working out" (as opposed to "fighting") is of pivotal importance.

Why would anyone workout, spar or train differently than they would intend to fight? This sounds counterproductive.

[kungfublow]

How long is long enough?
5 years? 9 years? 15 years?
If other systems are effective in less, what makes WC so inferior to them that it takes so long to learn it right?

Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that's good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn't a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I'm a one trick pony and that's all I can do. Sure it's effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe it just has more depth so it takes longer to grasp. If I can learn how to fight with another system in a matter of months maybe that's good. If your only goal is to be able to fight. Most likely you are going to use a couple of techniques that are easy to grasp and work consistantly with little effort or training. But now you are a good fighter that would be a one trick pony. If your goal is to get into something deeper and fighting is not the end all and be all of this then wouldn't a deeper system take much more time to learn and master and then apply. For me the longer the time taken to master the greater the reward. I could go out a learn how to throw a guy in a couple of weeks and it might work in every fight I ever have but really who cares I'm a one trick pony and that's all I can do. Sure it's effective but anything that comes so easy has no real pay off.

To me if it does take much longer to make Wing chun work I see that as a greater challenge with a greater reward. If the system is deeper then it should take longer to learn and master and then apply in a real fight situation.

Well, you certainly are entitled to your view.
I disagree, but to each their own.
If a MA, any MA, can't be used by its practioners to protect themselves as quickly as possible then it is quite obviously, inferior to other MA that can do this.

[goju]

more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself

[sanjuro_ronin]

more than likely though your not going to be able to apply any martial art quickly its gonna take a while before you can actually use it to defend yourself

Why?
Most guys that do MT or Boxing or even MMA, can "fight" within months, judo guys can throw people in months, BJJ guys can take down and choke most people after a few months.

[Ng Mui]

Wing Chun is beautiful when doing drills and forms. Fighting is ugly, never has there been or ever will be a graceful fight.
You worry a lot if tan sao is perfect while practicing the form, not worry so much when tan is blocking a punch coming toward your head.
All that matters is did it work.

Winning is beautiful, losing is ugly.

[goju]

Why?
Most guys that do MT or Boxing or even MMA, can "fight" within months, judo guys can throw people in months, BJJ guys can take down and choke most people after a few months.
but to get to a high level of skill it will take a while
plus you also have to consider in the factors if the person picks things up quickly, is athletically gifted etc etc
for example i picked up taekwondo kicking techniques quickly because im naturally flexible and had good coordination from me taking dancing lessons with my ex fiancee before hand

[goju]

i dont agree with that a fight should look beautiful as leung sheum said
looks at cung les fights those are nothing short of beautiful

[sanjuro_ronin]

but to get to a high level of skill it will take a while
plus you also have to consider in the factors if the person picks things up quickly, is athletically gifted etc etc
for example i picked up taekwondo kicking techniques quickly because im naturally flexible and had good coordination from me taking dancing lessons with my ex fiancee before hand

No one is talking high level, protecting yourself on the street is not high level in any MA training, it is basic stuff.
High level is trained fighter VS trained fighter, that is not what I am talking about.

[goju]

No one is talking high level, protecting yourself on the street is not high level in any MA training, it is basic stuff.
High level is trained fighter VS trained fighter, that is not what I am talking about.
well if we are talking street fighting that can be just as bad
a lot of technique flys out the window once you get sucker punched:D

i think its unwise to assume a street attacker can be taken out easily the way the fight can be unpredicatable

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you are convinced that you can't apply basic martial arts after 6 months then you need to re-think what you are doing.

Can you fight on a low level but lack confidence?
Is your instructor poor?
Is this the wrong style for you?
Do you need to practice your technique more?
Do you need to incorporate some boxing style training because you lack power or hand-eye coordination?
Do you need to spar more often and different types of opponents?
Do you need to get into better shape?
Lift weights?
Run?
Plyometrics?

[goju]

im saying though even if you are just training for self defense you should train like your going to fight the devel lol
six months wil you see an improvement? yes and depending on the person more so than others
but again it may not be enough to protect yourself its a pretty big assumption to think so

[HumbleWCGuy]

im saying though even if you are just training for self defense you should train like your going to fight the devel lol
six months wil you see an improvement? yes and depending on the person more so than others
but again it may not be enough to protect yourself its a pretty big assumption to think so

You nailed it! The most beneficial training that I did was full-contact fight preparation. Whether one is going to fight or not, just train like it for a while and the skill level will explode!

[anerlich]

Now, are you saying TWC does not have the necessary tools/concepts to operate from longer or pre-contact range and bridge into close range on its own?

No, and don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying the curriculum is there to be extended.

Go train for a few ring fights (or street fights if the ring ain't realistic enough :rolleyes:). The guys I talked about did, and came up with the approaches I mentioned.

I'll take their actual experience over your and everyone else's principles, concepts and theory every day of the week.

[JPinAZ]

No, and don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying the curriculum is there to be extended.

It wasn't my intention to put words into your mouth, just to understand what you mean better. Take it however you want, my questions still remain.


Go train for a few ring fights (or street fights if the ring ain't realistic enough :rolleyes:). The guys I talked about did, and came up with the approaches I mentioned.

I'll take their actual experience over your and everyone else's principles, concepts and theory every day of the week.

However you suggest I go train still wouldn't answer my questions regarding TWC's approach to fighting from long to short range.
And, I would expect you to take the word of someone you know over me, someone you don't. But, that still doesn't answer my questions regarding 'why' they do what they do, nor TWC's own approach to closing the gap from what some term as long range.

Thanks anyway

[Wayfaring]

WCK is about occupying your space with the strongest structure & maintaining your own CL and gravity while dominating your opponents’ gravity and taking away their structures. It’s about controlling their COM once the attack has been neutralized and then destroying what’s left of it. A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?


It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.

[Edmund]

I think the principal you should be guided by is to compliment your WC with techniques that address it's weaknesses. Every approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

By learning some kickboxing, you don't give away what your strength is. If your opponent knows you only want to get close, they can adjust to keep things at range.

Throwing a few kicks and long range punches to keep them guessing sets them up so you can move in close.




Now, I agree, you should work out with as many different people from as many different fighting backgrounds as possible. And I see nothing wrong with using different things to get the job done as long as they are guided by principal. But I don't think you have to mix in what they are doing if what you are doing already works. It has nothing to do with pride, stylistic purity or agenda. It has to do with common sense.
...
...
A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?

[chusauli]

It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.

Quite true, - Hung Kuen has this philosophy, as does Sumo, even Judo, and Shuai Jiao.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As I believe you are not trolling, but asking an honest question, JP...I'll give an answer to the TWC approach to long range - from my perspective.

TWC uses two basic approaches to fighting from long range-to-close range:

1) The Entry technique

2) Attacking the blindside

The Entry Technique (as William Cheung likes to call it) is done by lifting the lead leg into a defensive position along with both arms in a variation of an almost fully extended bil sao with the lead arm and a more-extended-than-usual wu sao with the rear arm...and hopping into the opponent's space at a slight angle.

The best way I've ever heard it described (by Blaine Collins, William Cheung's first American student and the dai-sihing of the entire North American chapter of William Cheung's World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association from it's inception in 1982 until Blaine voluntarily left the association at the end of 1990)...

is to look upon The Entry Techique as kind of like the classical Roman legion soldiers who used their shield to get close to the opponent safely and then began attacking with the short sword held in the other hand once they arrived.

The raised leg, the wu sao and the bil are the shield - in this analogy.

And I've been using this move since I started TWC in 1983 (that's 26 years now)...so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that I know something about how to use it - and what it's limitations are.

And I've used it successfully not only in sparring but also in an actual streetfight when up against two opponent's many years ago - and the element of surprise is a big factor with this move - as well as the fact that it can look intimidating as it comes in on you...prompting many people to back away from it...which can play into the TWC man's hands very well, as a matter of fact, since if the opponent back's up you can easily follow with a kick coming from the rear leg and keep him on the defense and continuing to back up and/or get kicked or punched.

It can work very well in this regard, but as I found through the years while sparring against skilled guys it does have it's limitations, ie.- the grappler will jump at the chance to grab that leg that's up in the air and launch a takedown, and against a good puncher he can time the "end" of your ENTRY TECHNIQUE and launch punches just as your lead foot is coming down to the floor...(and I might also add that not only is this my experience, but I have a very clear memory of William Cheung himself - waaaay back in the day - when asked about what are possible weaknesses of the Entry Technique - he himself offered the explanation I just gave about the move possibly getting timed so as to lauch an attack against the TWC man just as the lead foot is going back down to the floor).

In conclusion about this move, it's been my experience through the years that it works best when coming from the parallel leg position (ie.- my leading right leg vs. his leading left leg)...and when up against someone who looks like he's in a "kicking" type stance, if you get what I mean (as you can jam up his kicks quite nicely by extending your lead "shielding" leg and making it into a kicking weapon of your own as you're coming in)....

and it can work well against people who like to back up or dance around like a fancy up-on-his-toes boxer type, regardless of whether you started from parallel or cross leg positioning.

BUT IT HAS IT'S LIMITATIONS, clearly.

As does the blindside strategy, as a matter of fact.

This set of moves/strategies comes from the parallel position as well and is an attempt to jam up (and play off) his lead elbow as you either come in with some punches mixed with pak, gum, pak-cheun, bong-larp, or bong-larp-gum sao...or when he throws a straight punch at you with his lead arm....and can work very well in getting you a two-arm-on-one-arm advantage (hence the term "blindside", since he might also even have trouble keeping track of your lead arm punches due to the angling used with this)...

until you run into a skilled boxer type who is not throwing his lead hand punches with abandon - but is rather very skilled at mixing lines and jabs, and stiff straight leads, and hooks off the lead, so it can become very difficult, if not impossible, to bridge/jam his elbow at all...and/or he's simply timing you in order to land a big hook or uppercut with his lead hand as you come in...as this attempt to come into his space and either jam his elbow or punch your way in with vertical wing chun straight line punches can also be timed by a good boxer who leaves his lead arm off line as you attack (so there's no bridge) - resulting perhaps in eating a big hook, or an overhand, or an uppercut to the head (or the body) from his lead hand...

and is doubly problematical if the opponent has a longer reach than you - since your wing chun vertical punches are structurally shorter in reach than his horizontally thrown boxing leads, crosses, and overhands.

There are limitations. (Picture trying to use the above strategy against someone with the boxing skills like that of a Chuck Liddell, for example). Are you going to jam up and/or bridge off his lead elbow? Make him pay with a parallel positioned vertical wing chun punch attack that features your lead arm as the main attacking weapon?

SO LIKE ANDREW SAID: adding longer range punching and kicking techniques to a wing chun arsenal like this will TURBOCHARGE your game. The reason being you are no longer relying upon
a bridge in order to get to close range...and you're no longer limiting your attacking strikes to vertical wing chun straight punches.

[goju]

since my karate style is based on southern kung fu especially crane like wc is and bares similarities to wc i found the best way to close the gap is by using the signature low kick that are common in all the southern styles including wc

a good low side kick to the shin or knee or hip is a good way to immoblize your opponent especially if he moves around alot and allows you to close the gap

[duende]

It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.

Sure, this may very be the end result sought after, however it is easy to see how "outside-the-box" techniques can and do bring these concepts and principles into sketchy teritory.

Upon watching the Judo competitions at the last Olympic games for examples... It was surprising to see how often some competitors gave up their COM to commit to certain applications and techniques... Often ending in poor results btw. Time was not on their side IMO

I think this is one of those areas where we all seem to be after the same end result, but the means to the end and interpretation of these applied concepts are actually very different.

Yes... What something "looks like" doesn't matter, as long as it first meets the prerequisite of being at the right time and space.

[JPinAZ]

Thanks Victor for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.
I can see the advantages and 'possible' disadvantages of the technique as you've mentioned and have seen some clips of this. I think this is also seen in the opening of your dummy form?

In HFY, we do have a somewhat similar bridging strategy (minus the hop). One of which comes from our Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin training called Chin San Bo. Quickly put, it's about occupying your gates when moving forward into your opponent's space using 6-Gate Tin Yan Dei (heaven/human/earth) kiu sau concepts. The knee comes up to center and the hand spears up and forward into the upper gate. This strategy allows us to bridge with out opponent while not overcommitting and possibly taking a slight angle once the bridge has been made.

Of course, there is a correct time and place/range for usage of this strategy. It typically would be used with you bridging just to the inside of thier lead attack, but not exlusive to staying on the inside. Depending on the energies on the bridge prior to putting the lead foot back down, you either can stay on the inside and stabalize the bridge, or you may move to the outside of the lead arm with the wu hand upon landing. I think the hop might limit these options some as it's more of a commited approach (just from my perspective).

Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?

Thanks again for your reply.

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

Quite true, - Hung Kuen has this philosophy, as does Sumo, even Judo, and Shuai Jiao.

No sh!t. like Dave said, they all really do what I spoke about. That's obvious.
But I was speaking of WCK specifically in case you missed that part, and I am pretty sure the arts you mention above use a different approach to the end goal than WCK does, so what's your point?

[Yoshiyahu]

I think the principal you should be guided by is to compliment your WC with techniques that address it's weaknesses. Every approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

By learning some kickboxing, you don't give away what your strength is. If your opponent knows you only want to get close, they can adjust to keep things at range.

Throwing a few kicks and long range punches to keep them guessing sets them up so you can move in close.

How do you defeat someone with long rance punching and kicking?

What exactly is long range punching?

[chusauli]

Jonathan,

You are really acting like a jerk...and get inflamed on everything I write. Take a chill pill, dude. No need for attack. If you want to hash things out with me personally, you know where to contact me. But honestly, I am calling you on this. Either put me on ignore or shut up. I have no beef with you personally or your clan. Please don't continue to escalate things.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?" (JP)
..............................

***IF you reread my last post, Jonathan, I think you'll see that I did cover these moves.

[JPinAZ]

Jonathan,

You are really acting like a jerk...and get inflamed on everything I write. Take a chill pill, dude. No need for attack. If you want to hash things out with me personally, you know where to contact me. But honestly, I am calling you on this. Either put me on ignore or shut up. I have no beef with you personally or your clan. Please don't continue to escalate things.

Don't be so touchy, and I'm not inflamed and not attacking. I was talking about WCK methods, concepts and principals and you start talking about wrestling - I really didn't see your point. Quite often actually.

If you have a probelm with the way you think I'm acting, perhaps you should PM me instead of calling me out here, then telling me to contact you. Maybe you can tell me about some 'colourful stories' you've eluded to at the same time (see my point?) ;)

And what does 'my clan' have to do with anything?

[JPinAZ]

"Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?" (JP)
..............................

***IF you reread my last post, Jonathan, I think you'll see that I did cover these moves.

Yeah, you're right, you did talk about it. I did a quick readthru while here at work the first timeand didn't give it the full attention it deserved. Sorry about that - Will comment later. Thanks again for you reply!

[kungfublow]

How do you defeat someone with long rance punching and kicking?

What exactly is long range punching?


I'm not getting the long range punching and kicking either. My arm is only so long and my leg is only so long. What makes something long or short range? Isn't it all striking range or not striking range?

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge. I don't understand why you need to add other systems in to fill the gaps so to speak. Don't you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun? Not that I think it's bad to add other MA to what you do. I do think it would make you a more well rounded fighter. But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.

[Wayfaring]

Sure, this may very be the end result sought after, however it is easy to see how "outside-the-box" techniques can and do bring these concepts and principles into sketchy teritory.

Yes, agreed. HFY has a great approach in that outside-the-box techniques primarily seem to me to serve to "hand off" to inside-the-box. That is I think also the purpose of "man sao" in many other WCK approaches.

Structure inside the box is a universal working principle, WCK or not.

For example, rolling with a BJJ black belt who has a Braulio Estima type guard, I learn the boundaries to the box and am taught to stay inside the box as every time I get a limb extended out past my structural boundaries that would correspond to inside the box WCK, it gets isolated, I get stretched out, and I tap quickly. When I maintain structure, not as quickly.



Upon watching the Judo competitions at the last Olympic games for examples... It was surprising to see how often some competitors gave up their COM to commit to certain applications and techniques... Often ending in poor results btw. Time was not on their side IMO

Judo has sacrifice throws, appropriately named. They know they are giving up space and COM to execute them. They are lower percentage. That said, edging yourself closer to not giving up as much COM in those throws works better ;)



I think this is one of those areas where we all seem to be after the same end result, but the means to the end and interpretation of these applied concepts are actually very different.

Yes... What something "looks like" doesn't matter, as long as it first meets the prerequisite of being at the right time and space.

Yes, the means, interpretation, and execution towards these applied concepts in different arts is that which is interesting and unique and different. Yet as the skill level in the fighter gets higher, I see a lot of the fundamentals which are the same - right space and time. Those are what interest me now currently. The particular shapes that arrive there are not as much.

[anerlich]

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge.

That's arguable. But closing the gap and creating a bridge is not the be all end all or even the only effective combat strategy. If the other guy is better at closing the gap and creating a bridge, you might be better to have alternatives.


Don't you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun?

If you're on the ground at close range, h3ll no.


But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.

Perhaps, but if you regard WC as a fighting system with strengths and weaknesses, and you live in a world where there are many effective approaches on offer why would you restrict yourself unnecessarily?

[Edmund]

I'm not getting the long range punching and kicking either. My arm is only so long and my leg is only so long. What makes something long or short range? Isn't it all striking range or not striking range?

I would think that Wing Chun has everything you need to close the gap and create a bridge. I don't understand why you need to add other systems in to fill the gaps so to speak. Don't you have all the tools you need with just Wing chun? Not that I think it's bad to add other MA to what you do. I do think it would make you a more well rounded fighter. But if you just concentrate on making your wing chun work do you really need more to be able to defend yourself.

Well it's your own state of mind defining things.

You seems to want to say WC does it all in terms of striking.
You don't want to make a distinction between long range kicks and punches used in kickboxing and the strikes of WC.

My point only goes to people who make that distinction. Frankly I was just replying on from other posts that were discussing long range kicks and punches.

If you haven't made that distinction, that's another issue. You asked for videos of WC at the start. Why not just watch kickboxing videos if it's all the same to you?

As for having all the tools you need with just WC: I wasn't discussing the MINIMUM amount of tools necessary in the first place. An artist can survive with a minimum amount but having more tools doesn't make you any less of an artist.

[Pacman]

i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say "this is how WC will look when in a real situation" when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.

WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the "kickboxing" posture is more natural.

if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response--tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation


While I agree with you I will say this:
That happens because the most natural way to fight with all our tools is the "typical kickboxing" way, that said, I do think that, if one choose too, that by training WC in a full contact environment VS other systems ( not just VS other WC) that the "unique look" of WC MAY be able to be kept, if this training is done from the beginning.
Now, you may ask "why bother" and its a valid point and I would reply that possessing a UNIQUE AND EFFECTIVE style of fighting leads to having a tactical advantage.

[kungfublow]

Well it's your own state of mind defining things.

You seems to want to say WC does it all in terms of striking.
You don't want to make a distinction between long range kicks and punches used in kickboxing and the strikes of WC.

My point only goes to people who make that distinction. Frankly I was just replying on from other posts that were discussing long range kicks and punches.

If you haven't made that distinction, that's another issue. You asked for videos of WC at the start. Why not just watch kickboxing videos if it's all the same to you?

As for having all the tools you need with just WC: I wasn't discussing the MINIMUM amount of tools necessary in the first place. An artist can survive with a minimum amount but having more tools doesn't make you any less of an artist.


I don't think that Wing Chun does it all in terms of striking. I would think it would be pretty closed minded to think that this one system has all the answers. I just think that it has enough of the answers to allow me to effectively defend myself. I think you are right the more tools you have the better fighter you will be. I don't think that makes you less of an artist rather I think it makes you a more well rounded artist.

When it comes to long range and short range punching it's not that I don't want to make the distinction it's that I really don't understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?

[kungfublow]

That's arguable. But closing the gap and creating a bridge is not the be all end all or even the only effective combat strategy. If the other guy is better at closing the gap and creating a bridge, you might be better to have alternatives.



If you're on the ground at close range, h3ll no.



Perhaps, but if you regard WC as a fighting system with strengths and weaknesses, and you live in a world where there are many effective approaches on offer why would you restrict yourself unnecessarily?


Good points! Time is what restricts me. A wife and newborn as well.

[m1k3]

....

When it comes to long range and short range punching it's not that I don't want to make the distinction it's that I really don't understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?

How about if I use boxing as an example as it has both long and short range striking.

A jab or cross is a long range punch, the structure used to deliver that punch requires a certain amount of room for the punch to be effective. To0 far and you can't reach your opponent, too close and you lose power.

An uppercut or hood is a short range punch the structure used to deliver it is different than that of a jab or cross. Too far and the punch is ineffective, telegraphed and leaves you open for counters, too close and the punch is smothered and weak.

Hope this helps.

[kungfublow]

How about if I use boxing as an example as it has both long and short range striking.

A jab or cross is a long range punch, the structure used to deliver that punch requires a certain amount of room for the punch to be effective. To0 far and you can't reach your opponent, too close and you lose power.

An uppercut or hood is a short range punch the structure used to deliver it is different than that of a jab or cross. Too far and the punch is ineffective, telegraphed and leaves you open for counters, too close and the punch is smothered and weak.

Hope this helps.


Wow that does help thanks!

[Edmund]

I don't think that Wing Chun does it all in terms of striking. I would think it would be pretty closed minded to think that this one system has all the answers. I just think that it has enough of the answers to allow me to effectively defend myself. I think you are right the more tools you have the better fighter you will be. I don't think that makes you less of an artist rather I think it makes you a more well rounded artist.


You said before that you didn't understand the need to fill in the gaps.
Well you just answered your own question.



When it comes to long range and short range punching it's not that I don't want to make the distinction it's that I really don't understand the difference. What makes a punch long range?

The length obviously.

It's relative to your reach.

If it's near the end of your reach = long.
Well within your reach = short.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...on how to mix some longer range boxing with some shorter range wing chun. This guy has some pretty good moves, and a pretty good awareness of distance/range issues. Pick up the action at 0:50 - 3:20 into the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IQWr_qA7o4&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

[anerlich]

My take on the range thing from a more WC centric POV is that most of WC operates best at a range where you can use both hands simultaneously, e.g redirecting with one while striking with the other, chi sao sort of range. This OMHO requires you to be closer than the range of a boxing jab, or at the extreme, a mid-level sidekick.

Most WC lineages, mine included, have techs to operate at this range, but they are not the bread and butter stuff that most WC students practice most. Other arts IMO have have richer options at longer and closer ranges than WC's primary range.

I agree with m1k3, also.

[k gledhill]

you mention re-directing with one while striking with the other...basic level VT training is to make each strike do the job of 2 hands=

1 strike doing both the deflecting and hitting ...tan sao doesnt leave the line only teaches elbow positions pre-striking ....jum sao is the same...

both in the fist sections of SLT's ...tan ~ huen ~ jum ~ vu repeat etc....many dont do jum sao ..simply go into vu sao ....

it is at chi-sao/striking range....we have to extend from a bent arm that is close enought to reach and also use the angles we train in the SLT to function across arms/under etc...in unison doing, as you mentioned one redirecting & one striking as well as the basic striking with 2 free striking hands....that EACH have the capacity to act as 2 of your hands in any strike.

the systematic stages of dan chisao ...chi-sao...gor sao ...sparring develops these strikes/tactics...

maintaining the assault at our range with relentless strikes that always allow us to attack...kicking, pushing back to striking range, striking again...:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...maintaining the assault at our range with relentless strikes that always allow us to attack...kicking, pushing back to striking range, striking again...":D (k gledhill)
......................

***AGREED, this is indeed the wing chun way - ONCE YOU GET TO OUR RANGE.

It's getting there that will often require Longer Range Weapons And Strategies than those normally (and usually) found within most wing chun circles, imo. And the more skilled the fighter you're up against, the more you'll need the LRWAS.

[Yoshiyahu]

i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say "this is how WC will look when in a real situation" when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.

WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the "kickboxing" posture is more natural.

if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response--tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation

I totally agree...Great observation wow...you hit the hammer on the nail!

[mjw]

As my Sifu said,"when you deal with the criminal and the insane martial arts go down the drain."

A lot of wing chun is developmental drills which are good don't get me wrong but fighting isn't pretty. Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it's different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don't look pretty.

It is what it is.....

[Yoshiyahu]

As my Sifu said,"when you deal with the criminal and the insane martial arts go down the drain."

A lot of wing chun is developmental drills which are good don't get me wrong but fighting isn't pretty. Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it's different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don't look pretty.

It is what it is.....

i think what Pacman was stating is how on most of those videos they don't show any WC techniques besides front step, front kick and chain punches.

In other words Its basically who can punch the fastest wins the fight. Instead of the person being able to intercept and control their opponent. Their are not controlling techniques being down. No flanking, No redirecting energy or force or the opponents center line.

There is merely a bunch a knock em sockem robots.

WC has a great offensive techniques if use with the entry techniques and centerline controlling techniques. But basically if you just go in firing away trying to lay enough blows to hurt your opponent you may not be successful. But if you redirect your opponents center line or trap his arms while hitting him. You have a better chance of coming out unscathed.

I think thats what he is looking for. Basic self defense techniques use against a kick or a hook or jab. When most of the time we only see them just running forward with Chainpunches ablazing before they are even in striking range???

Curious do you guys apply controlling and trapping techniques along with centerline redirection when you spar????

Yes or NO?

[Pacman]

Look at felon fights etc. Especially when it's different styles fighting. Wing Chun vs wing chun or Jiu Jitsu vs jiujitsu etc. look beautiful but differnt styles clash and don't look pretty.

i never seen felon fights but i assume you mention them because they look like unskilled brawls. well thats probably because they arent trained fighters and thus they just brawl.

a reason different styles fighting may not look pretty is for the same reason i stated above. people are taken out of their element and comfort zone. thus their technique goes out the window as they might start to panic etc. its not that what they learned could not work, they just havent learned to make it work. its the same as if you train with the same people and then spar with someone who is a lot taller than you are used to.



...When most of the time we only see them just running forward with Chainpunches ablazing before they are even in striking range???



yes exactly. there is no need to mix up WC with other arts to fight in the long range. long or short range, WC can be useless or useful. its up to the individual to learn how to make things work.

those videos on youtube are the fault of the teacher who never discouraged or maybe even promoted students starting a chung choi from 10 feet away, and then continuing the chung choi even as the student was getting hit in the face for every time he was hitting the other person.

also the teachers fault for not telling the other student to try a different technique against a charging opponent than a chung choi.

rock em sock em robots is the best description

[t_niehoff]

i think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say "this is how WC will look when in a real situation" when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers.


Since you bring up my views -- which you, not surprisingly, misstate -- I thought I should clarify. Fighting is going to look like fighting. Period. IOWs it's going to "look" like MMA/NHB. That's simply the nature of fighting. That's my view. And, it is one backed up by overwhelming evidence: all you need to do is look at any genuine fights (where both sides have really bad intentions) and what do you see?

Since this is what a fight is going to be, the question anyone interested in preparing for fighting needs to address is: does their training prepare them for THAT? Are you going to be able to fit into THAT and prevail?

It's like looking at american football or rugby -- you can see what it is going to look like, and see what you are going to need to do IF you want to play those games. The very nature of the game determines the skills you need.

What frequently happens is people don't prepare for THAT but try to train for how they believe a fight SHOULD be ("I have a theory"). And so when they do ever fight, they naturally end up looking like untrained brawlers since that is essentially what they are -- as they have never developed genuine fighting skills.



WC posture is unnatural. its difficult to maintain. it can take lots of leg strength and you have to develop muscles that normally arent very strong. its not natural to put your elbows in, to tuck in your pelvis, etc etc. the "kickboxing" posture is more natural.


Without commenting on your mistaken view of WCK, let me say that our bodies are "hardwired" as to how they will move optimally at intensity (100% full out, full power). You can't change that -- it's how we are "designed". If you "train" to move in some other way, then you either won't be able to function well at intensity or you will override your "training" and move "naturally". IME a great many people are training to fail.



if you have not trained sufficiently, under a pressure situation all your training goes out the window. you lose all form and maybe even kick in with your natural defense response--tense up, swing wildly, get agressive and try to knock your opponents head off without strategy or skill.

this is the reason that WCers sparring on youtube dont look much like WC. its not because WC cannot be used in a live situation

I never said WCK couldn't be used in fighting or in a live situation.

The reason most WCK people look like crap is that they are crap. It has nothing to do with WCK, it has to do with (1) how they train and (2) who they train with.

There is only one way for anyone to develop competent-level fighting skills, and that is by training with and fighting/sparring with proven, competent (or better) fighters. This is true of boxing, BJJ, MT, WCK -- it is true regardless of the fighting art or style. So if a person doesn't put in hundreds of hours of sparring with competent fighters, they will be incompetent (poorly skilled).

[Pacman]

Since you bring up my views -- which you, not surprisingly, misstate -- I thought I should clarify. Fighting is going to look like fighting. Period. IOWs it's going to "look" like MMA/NHB. That's simply the nature of fighting. That's my view. And, it is one backed up by overwhelming evidence: all you need to do is look at any genuine fights (where both sides have really bad intentions) and what do you see?

frankly this is the most retarded thing i have ever heard. saying that all fighting is fighting shows such a fundamental lack of understanding as saying all wing chun is the same

as usual, your analysis is very superficial. to say it is elementary is an understatement.

if you watch other vids of brawls and streetfights, untrained people are not going to be throwing punches with their elbow in. they will probably do what they see the most. what they see in tvs and movies. throwing punches from the shoulder, maybe even wild swings. horizontal fists

that was my first instinct when i had no training. even when i started out in WC, i would lose all composure and form sometimes when i sparred and things got heated. adrenaline takes over and your natural instincts take over.

i would be an unskilled brawler like the WC you see on youtube.

however, i was taught to fight those instincts and its instinct for me to hunch, to squat down, and to keep my elbow in etc.



Without commenting on your mistaken view of WCK, let me say that our bodies are "hardwired" as to how they will move optimally at intensity (100% full out, full power). You can't change that -- it's how we are "designed". If you "train" to move in some other way, then you either won't be able to function well at intensity or you will override your "training" and move "naturally". IME a great many people are training to fail.

you are speakng very generally and i have no idea what you are talkign about specifically.

i specifically talked about keeping the elbow in. its a bit unnatural and difficult at first because most people lack the flexibility and the muscles used for that position.

"mistaken view". that really made me laugh out loud. you can claim to know a lot about fighting because you supposedly fight a lot in your exclusive underground fight club, but really...stop talking like you know about all sorts of WC. you demonstrated your lack of knwledge of SN WC when you described the 12 san sik

but apparently i have a mistaken view of WC and there is no emphasis on keeping your elbow in the center etc.


I never said WCK couldn't be used in fighting or in a live situation.

i never said you said this.



The reason most WCK people look like crap is that they are crap. It has nothing to do with WCK, it has to do with (1) how they train and (2) who they train with.

i dont know why u said this. this is a restatement of what i said, although i did not sound as much of a pr!ck as you.



There is only one way for anyone to develop competent-level fighting skills, and that is by training with and fighting/sparring with proven, competent (or better) fighters. This is true of boxing, BJJ, MT, WCK -- it is true regardless of the fighting art or style. So if a person doesn't put in hundreds of hours of sparring with competent fighters, they will be incompetent (poorly skilled).

wait say that again. i havent heard you say this before.

[goju]

oh the hoff is back:eek::eek:

[t_niehoff]

as usual, your analysis is very superficial. to say it is elementary is an understatement.

if you watch other vids of brawls and streetfights, untrained people are not going to be throwing punches with their elbow in. they will probably do what they see the most. what they see in tvs and movies. throwing punches from the shoulder, maybe even wild swings. horizontal fists


You are missing the big picture: the basis for everything is there. If you watch untrained (non)swimmers thrown in the water you will see all kinds of unproductive movement too. The environment -- whether the water or a fight -- is what we need to learn to deal with. You're right that people will be doing those things in a fight. The next question is: can you deal THAT?



that was my first instinct when i had no training. even when i started out in WC, i would lose all composure and form sometimes when i sparred and things got heated. adrenaline takes over and your natural instincts take over.

i would be an unskilled brawler like the WC you see on youtube.

however, i was taught to fight those instincts and its instinct for me to hunch, to squat down, and to keep my elbow in etc.


It's not a matter of "fighting instincts", it is a matter of learning to move more effectively (skillfully). Throw someone who can't swim into water and they will flail about; with practice they learn how to make their movement more productive.



you are speakng very generally and i have no idea what you are talkign about specifically.

i specifically talked about keeping the elbow in. its a bit unnatural and difficult at first because most people lack the flexibility and the muscles used for that position.


It's unnatural for you since you are not using it where it is "naturally" appropriate.



"mistaken view". that really made me laugh out loud. you can claim to know a lot about fighting because you supposedly fight a lot in your exclusive underground fight club, but really...stop talking like you know about all sorts of WC. you demonstrated your lack of knwledge of SN WC when you described the 12 san sik

but apparently i have a mistaken view of WC and there is no emphasis on keeping your elbow in the center etc.


Things like "keeping your elbow in the center" is beginner-level stuff, and adherence to it (dogma) confirms you are a beginner. The elbow goes where it needs to go to do what you want to do.



i never said you said this.


That wasn't clear so I made it clear.



i dont know why u said this. this is a restatement of what i said, although i did not sound as much of a ***** as you.


No, you didn't say anything like that.



wait say that again. i havent heard you say this before.

Too bad you won't listen to it.

People who haven't put in that work are incompetent fighters -- it doesn't matter if it is grappling or WCK or boxing or whatever. And since understanding comes from skill, an incompetent fighter has an incompetent understanding of his art (and fighting, for that matter). By working with competent fighters people will at least reach the stage of conscious incompetence (they are incompetent and know it). That's the first step toward competence. Unfortunately, most are unconsciously incompetent (incompetent and don't know it) and will stay there -- happy in their bubble.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I think sanjuro brought up a great point and it is the answer to a lot of the statements by knifefighter and niehoff who say 'this is how WC will look when in a real situation' when referring to youtube videos of WCers who look like unskilled brawlers." (Pacman)
...............................

***Pacman, I think you and I can debate some things in a civil manner; and in so doing, perhaps there can be a bypass of having to go back-and-forth with those who only want to give you the message that "you suck and they know it all"...

a bypass made possible because the same wing chun issues will be covered without all the self-serving theatrics- and without the need felt by others to have to respond to the theatrics.

So to begin, I also think that many, many youtube videos of WCers look like unskilled brawling - but I have a different take as to why that is.

And it's the same issue I've been trying to address within many threads for some time now; namely that real altercations (and realistic sparring against good opponents) will often look like brawling if one has brought a short wooden sword to a fight against a long wooden sword, ie.-

one is simply not adequately prepared to get close enough (without taking a battering) to use the short sword without having to resort to some MAKESHIFT long range fighting that hasn't been adequately trained beforehand - and trained with the appropriate longer sword.

Only in this analogy, I'm saying that you need to have a long sword in one hand and a short sword in the other - and you use whichever one makes the most sense at the moment.

[Pacman]

hi victor

i have three points:


1. sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?

2. lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword

3. the videos i have seen are WC fighters against one another. never a WC fighter against a different style. so even assuming your argument about WC lacking a long range game is true, these matchups on youtube would be even. i still just see two people flying towards each other with a very linear chung choi (chain punch)...which actually doesnt even look like a chung choi to me but just repetitive straight punches (maybe thats how YM does it i dont know)

[Pacman]

You are missing the big picture: the basis for everything is there. If you watch untrained (non)swimmers thrown in the water you will see all kinds of unproductive movement too. The environment -- whether the water or a fight -- is what we need to learn to deal with. You're right that people will be doing those things in a fight. The next question is: can you deal THAT?


yes i can. it is much easier to deal with a guy charging at you than a skilled fighter. you love pro sports as examples. watch any pro sport. who the hell does a kamikaze attack and wins consistently against fighters who use some skill and technique.




Things like "keeping your elbow in the center" is beginner-level stuff, and adherence to it (dogma) confirms you are a beginner. The elbow goes where it needs to go to do what you want to do.

its not dogma. it has a purpose. for protection, speed, and power. we generate our power differently than other arts. its also necessary to do the techniques that we do. i dont listen to it blindly w/o thinking and analysis. it is not dogma.

dogma is thinking you have it all figured out because you took some lessons, got your ass beat, realized you wasted your time, got bitter, watched pro sport fighting as proof of the next steps to take and convinced yourself you now are enlightened.

[Kansuke]

These same people have the notion that fighting is learning, but it really isn't. I suppose that you do learn a few things when fighting, like not getting too close, or when you should have ran, but in most cases learning stops when you leave your training space. You only get to apply what you have learned when you fight, and very little of anything else as far as technique. If you talk to most seriously skilled people they will tell you that they have spent a great portion of their lives training and working with a partner doing repititious moves over and over until they can do then in their sleep and under any condition, such as fight stress. You need to work with a partner as much and as often as you can so that you learn timing and such. That is where you learn, not sparring in a ring or street fighting.



What a stinking pile of bull**** that post was.

[TenTigers]

yes exactly. there is no need to mix up WC with other arts to fight in the long range. long or short range, WC can be useless or useful. its up to the individual to learn how to make things work.



check out what Sifus Duncan Leung and Alan Lee have up on youtube. I believe they have some really good applications of the longer range bridging and applying WCK against techniques outside of the system.

[Pacman]

What a stinking pile of bull**** that post was.


its not complete bull**** think you need both.

[Pacman]

Unfortunately, most are unconsciously incompetent (incompetent and don't know it) and will stay there -- happy in their bubble.

like you and your exclusive underground fight club that no one can join?

"hi, kettle? this is pot. you're black."

you are so hilarious. you attach that paragraph to every single one of your posts even if it doesnt apply to the conversation. you spout it off like people are disagreeing with you

who on this forum ever said that the best way to train is with people that are unskilled? no one. you're like rainman over here.

[goju]

lol!!
the first rule of fightclub is dont allow anyone in your secret club

the second rule of fight club is dont ever show your skill and methods of training you speak about so often

the third rule of fight club is you ride the coat tails of a unknown disgruntled ex wc practioner so you opinions seem valid

the fourth rule of fight club is to use terms like"unconciously incompetent"(we dont know what that means it just makes us sound like mr spock with downs sysndrome)

[JPinAZ]

lol!!
the first rule of fightclub is dont allow anyone in your secret club

the second rule of fight club is dont ever show your skill and methods of training you speak about so often

the third rule of fight club is you ride the coat tails of a unknown disgruntled ex wc practioner so you opinions seem valid

the fourth rule of fight club is to use terms like"unconciously incompetent"(we dont know what that means it just makes us sound like mr spock with downs sysndrome)

I read this three times, and it got better each time. Thanks for this one! :D

[JPinAZ]

check out what Sifus Duncan Leung and Alan Lee have up on youtube. I believe they have some really good applications of the longer range bridging and applying WCK against techniques outside of the system.

I've seen some of those and would agree. I'd also say some of the twc vids also show how to effectively bridge from longer range to shorter range without using jab/cross type of counter attacks. Nothing against Vic or anyone else, but I don't understand the obvious differences in approaches even within the same group.

On another note..
IMO, WC isn't a range-dependent fighting style, it's a system with a set of concepts, principals and tools that make a fighter better at fighting. IMO, there is no long range/short range, this thinking can lead to a technique figthing mindset. There is only a distance one can bridge and a distance one can't, regardless if it's a longer jab or a tight hook coming in. If I can't bridge, then they can't hit. So, there's either striking range or not. And if I can bridge, WC principals can apply.

From my experience, if I jab against a jab, I am going to create a long/short reach problem with my arms (as happens when throwing a standard boxing jab). From my WC perspective, this creates a time distortion and goes against 4 and 6 gate theories, as well as 2-line offense/defense strategies. I see no reason to abandon these things just because the person threw a longer punch vs. a shorter one. While I give credit to guys like Vic that are going out and trying new things and mixing stuff in at longer range to become a better fighter, I still just can't see the necessity (from my experience). WC has the answers for bridging this gap imo.

[t_niehoff]

like you and your exclusive underground fight club that no one can join?

"hi, kettle? this is pot. you're black."


Anyone can do what I did and go train at a MMA school. Nothing "underground" or "exclusinve" about it. In fact, I know quite a few that are doing that.



you are so hilarious. you attach that paragraph to every single one of your posts even if it doesnt apply to the conversation. you spout it off like people are disagreeing with you


Yes, it's hilarious that I respond to the things people say.



who on this forum ever said that the best way to train is with people that are unskilled? no one. you're like rainman over here.

This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are "skilled". But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently -- just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won't be able to handle them. IOWs, they don't have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK -- fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill -- or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers -- and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can't use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.

[goju]

Anyone can do what I did and go train at a MMA school. Nothing "underground" or "exclusinve" about it. In fact, I know quite a few that are doing that.



Yes, it's hilarious that I respond to the things people say.



This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are "skilled". But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently -- just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won't be able to handle them. IOWs, they don't have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK -- fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill -- or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers -- and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can't use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.

cant the same be said about you and the place you spposedly train at?just because the particular style you practice or"supposedly" i should say is used in the ocatagon doesnt give merit to you or your "gym"

and being that youve given no example of your skill we can assume your no different than some crackpot who does wc and thinks his vertical punch can make a tree explode in one blow?

of course not thats different right?


you honestly think your extending words of wisdom with you nonsense about training realistically

gee you should train hard in realistic fashion? hur hur hur gosh golly no one has ever thought of that snort hyuk hyuk

[Pacman]

you are not responding to what people say.

every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself.

first of all, the original sidebar conversation was what WC will look like in a real situation. you keep saying that WC is going to look like MMA and look like this videos on youtube. those videos on youtube are just unskilled brawls! that doesnt even look like what a skilled boxer or MT fighter would do!

btw, i have sparred people who have trained in MT, Karate, and boxing and i could always do what i trained...and it didnt look like MMA



This is exactly what I mean about unconscious incompetence: many of you believe in that you and your sifus are "skilled". But 99% of WCK people, including the masters and grandmasters, are unskilled. Unless, of course, skill in WCK means not being able to fight.

Of course, it is easy to see if you can use WCK competently -- just go spar with a good, competent fighter (MT or MMA) and see if you can do what you train to do. With very few exceptions, we never see that. And the reason is simple: unless you are doing that regularly (sparring with good, competent nonWCK people) you won't be able to handle them. IOWs, they don't have competent skills.

Sure, they know the curriculum of WCK but they have very litte genuine skill WITH WCK -- fighting ability using WCK movement (doing the things they train to do in fighting as they have trained to do them). The only people who do have skill -- or CAN have skill-- are those WCK people who regularly go out and trained with good, competent nonWCK fighters and fight trainers -- and by train I mean spend loads of time sparring with good, competent fighters.

No one is going to learn how to use their WCK from people who can't use their WCK. And, the ONLY way to learn how to use your WCK is through your own hard work of sparring with good, competent, nonWCK fighters. No one can tell you, no one can show you, no one can give it to you.


you are a moron. this is what i mean. you are having a conversation with yourself. who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC. your response to my comment is like...mind blowing because in my comment i just stated that no one disputes this!!!!

how did the conversation even get here. read the original start of the convo. this is a complete non sequitur

the conversation might as well be like this:

"hi terrence"

"bananas in the schoolyard rule rubgy oh my god its christmas!"

"what?"

"i just responded to what you said"

"no you didn't"

"bananas in the schoolyard rule rubgy oh my god its christmas!"


my theory is that you always divert because you say some stupid **** and then people get you on it and so you bring it back to something that no one disagrees with and then argue for it so it somehow seems like you won the argument

[goju]

**** so all those years and hard work you put into a martial art and you just end up looking like a sloppy amateur mma fighter who flails madly at his opponent:D
i can now see the light

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You are not responding to what people say.
Every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself...who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC ?!" (Pacman)
........................

***AND therefore, Pacman, the reason for continuing to argue with this guy...is....what? :rolleyes: :confused:

Here's a hint: he's a troll.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:D :D :D

[goju]

"You are not responding to what people say.
Every time you completely derail the conversation and bring up this topic, then continue to have a conversation/argument with yourself...who the hell ever advocated never sparring with competent people, WC or non WC ?!" (Pacman)
........................

***AND therefore, Pacman, the reason for continuing to argue with this guy...is....what? :rolleyes: :confused:

Here's a hint: he's a troll.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:D :D :D

if you know how to do it right vic you can troll the trolls it can actually be quite amusing didnt you see the thread where i got dale so riled up he nearly had a heart attack lol:D

[bennyvt]

im confused. Do you mean vt looks like mma in a fight. Crap people look crap when fighting. Or mma looks like **** vt in a fight.

[t_niehoff]

im confused. Do you mean vt looks like mma in a fight. Crap people look crap when fighting. Or mma looks like **** vt in a fight.

I'm saying fighting looks like MMA/NHB regardless of what your "style" is. That's what fighting IS -- that's how people optimally move when they fight and are hard pushed. I say "hard pushed" since if the intensity drops, people can do all kinds of things -- the analogy I like is running: when people run full out, they all "look" alike (you can't change how you do it); but they can do all kinds of funny walks. Put two people in and have them *really* (100% full out) fight and whether they do WCK or cornish wrestling or hung ga or kenpo or TKD or CLF or savate or whatever it will end up looking like MMA/NHB. That's just the nature of the game.

A fight will involve stand-up/free-movement, clinch, and ground -- or some combination of those. The body mechanics, tools, strategies, tactics, etc. that really work at each stage are particular to that stage, and any martial art that is viable will use those same things. They have to. Just to use the ground stage as an example: regardless of your style, a fight on the ground is going to "look" a certain way and to fight on the ground skillfully will require that you use the same fundamental skills regardless of your style or art. All those different styles (sambo, judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc.) will by necessity need to use the same mechanics, tools, tactics, etc. They just put them together slightly differently, with differing emphasis, etc. Where is there a "style" of ground fighting that has proven viable that doesn't do what judo, sambo, wrestling, BJJ, etc. does? Right - it doesn't exist.

Of course, people can create all kinds of weird ways of moving, use "unique" tools, have various theories of ground fighting, but when the sh1t hits the fan and they end up on the ground, the stuff that works is the stuff that you see in MMA/NHB, it's the stuff you see in judo, wrestling, BJJ, etc.

It's the same for stand-up and for clinch.

[goju]

thats funny because because you have fighters like cung le and lyoto who look completely different than other mma fighters despite your claims

[t_niehoff]

thats funny because because you have fighters like cung le and lyoto who look completely different than other mma fighters despite your claims

They don't "look" different. When Le and Michida fight, their fights "look" like MMA fights. Are their punches and kicks performed differently? Are their takedowns performed differently? Is what they do on the ground different?

As I said, they all use the same fundamentals. And as I said, how they put those things together is what varies and makes them unique. Silva comes out of MT and BJJ, yet similarly has a unique flavor to his game.

[JPinAZ]

Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.. So glad he came and cleared things up. We can all sleep better at night :rolleyes:
** yaaawwwnnnn **

[t_niehoff]

Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary.. So glad he came and cleared things up. We can all sleep better at night :rolleyes:
** yaaawwwnnnn **

I did have a nice vacation, thank you. I love the Tetons. :)

If you accept that fighting will look like MMA/NHB, then the next question to ask yourself is whether that is what you are preparing for. Ponder that while you do your SNT. ;)

[goju]

no they dont they clearly lok like a shanshou fighter and clearly look like a shotokan stylist
anyone who has seen either martial art alot will notice the difference between these guys and other typical mma fighters
again you claims are rediculous martial arts do not look like two spazzes wind milling at one another

[Ultimatewingchun]

Humm....

"Ponder that while you do your SNT"...and..."WCK is my primary art".

So good Wing Chun = no SNT/SLT...

Humm...


DON'T FEED THE TROLLS !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
..................................

:p ;) :cool:

[Pacman]

They don't "look" different. When Le and Michida fight, their fights "look" like MMA fights. Are their punches and kicks performed differently? Are their takedowns performed differently? Is what they do on the ground different?

As I said, they all use the same fundamentals. And as I said, how they put those things together is what varies and makes them unique. Silva comes out of MT and BJJ, yet similarly has a unique flavor to his game.

now i know why you are in the camp that says all WC Kuen is WC Kuen.

if you say all arts become the same thing surely you would say that all WC Kuen becomes the same

i really dnt have the energy to type now for some reason...but all i can say for now is that there is more to fighting than throwing the same style punch/kick...and btw in your examples they wouldnt do the same things.

[t_niehoff]

now i know why you are in the camp that says all WC Kuen is WC Kuen.


All WCK is personal. Just like boxers, MT fighters, judoka. wrestlers, etc., our objective is to develop our OWN personal game -- our own WCK. That means taking things and shaping them to ourselves, to our best advantage. So, we aren't "doing" YM WCK or YKS WCK or Gu Lao WCK or whatever. When we fight, when we actually DO WCK, we are doing our own personal WCK. We're not trying to do it like someone else. The branches of WCK are simply various ways of teaching us the skills of WCK.

So, you see, our branch or lineage or sifu doesn't tell us how to DO WCK -- our opponents teach us how to DO WCK. They show us what things work well for us, teach us how to solve problems, etc.

WCK is WCK. It is unique to each of us, yet we all draw on the same material.



if you say all arts become the same thing surely you would say that all WC Kuen becomes the same


See above. It is the same with boxing or BJJ. Boxing is boxing, BJJ is BJJ. The fundamentals are the same. But the individual expression varies.



i really dnt have the energy to type now for some reason...but all i can say for now is that there is more to fighting than throwing the same style punch/kick...and btw in your examples they wouldnt do the same things.

It has nothing to do with "the same style punch and kick". I'm talking about the fundamental skills of fighting. A hip throw is a hip throw, regardless of the art it comes from. If you want to pin someone on the ground, you are going to do the same things whether you do judo or sambo or wrestling or BJJ.

[JPinAZ]

I did have a nice vacation, thank you. I love the Tetons. :)

If you accept that fighting will look like MMA/NHB, then the next question to ask yourself is whether that is what you are preparing for. Ponder that while you do your SNT. ;)

No, I wouldn't. I said I'd accept if someone said something as simple as 'all fighting looks like fighting'. Can't you read??

And no, I'm not preparing myself to go fight sport. While I do think that sport fighters can be some bad mofo's, it's not what I trian for. From all my past experiences, I know that if I ever get into a fight again, there will be protective gear, soft floors, rules, limitations, refs, time limits, one-on-one only, tap outs and all the other safe stuff you get with sport fighting. I'll leave that kinda stuff to you. To me, that's not fighting, it's sport fighting.

[t_niehoff]

No, I wouldn't. I said I'd accept if someone said something as simple as 'all fighting looks like fighting'. Can't you read??


Yes, I can read. If you go back to my original response to bennyvt, you'll see I wrote: "I'm saying fighting looks like MMA/NHB regardless of what your "style" is. That's what fighting IS -- that's how people optimally move when they fight and are hard pushed."

You then responded to my post with: "Big deal, T takes a few weeks off the forum and comes back saying fighting looks like fighting - wow, how revolutionary."

So, I guess now that you either misread what I wrote or were intentionally misstating my view. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and concluded that you were agreeing with me (since you thought my view was apparently obvious).



And no, I'm not preparing myself to go fight sport. While I do think that sport fighters can be some bad mofo's, it's not what I trian for. From all my past experiences, I know that if I ever get into a fight again, there will be protective gear, soft floors, rules, limitations, refs, time limits, one-on-one only, tap outs and all the other safe stuff you get with sport fighting. I'll leave that kinda stuff to you. To me, that's not fighting, it's sport fighting.

It's amazing to me that this sort of thinking continues. It's been proven wrong so many times . . . .

What are you preparing for? Tell me how you learn to grapple without permitting tapping out? Do you break each other's limbs in training? Do you roll on concrete? Do you spar in stand-up without wearing gloves or mouthpieces? I mean, after all, you're not going to have those things on the street! And by your reasoning, since you are preparing for the street those things must impede your development. You surely don't want to use that "safe stuff" that sport fighters use. ;)

[kungfublow]

Here's what I don't get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it's pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can't.

To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn't martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can't we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can't you do the same with a fighter.

All fighting shouldn't look the same. If that's the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.

[Pacman]

Here's what I don't get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it's pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can't.

To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn't martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can't we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can't you do the same with a fighter.

All fighting shouldn't look the same. If that's the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.

brilliant. exactly what i was saying about WCK. the postures are unnatural. thats why you will not stick to them if you have not trained enough. you need to re-harwire your brain to use the art instead of your natural response. and many times you need to strengthen muscles so that you can hold these postures

when i wrestled in high school i can tell you it is not natural to squat down. your legs and lower back get tired. its not natural to stand like that. but guess what? there is a purpose and a reason for wrestlers to adopt that posture. and guess what? wrestling is in the holy trinitiy of MMA!!!! :eek:

i think your answer to "why train at all", however is in Ts history of posts. i think it is his opinion that any training that doesnt involve all out fighting is useless. go read his posts. if he ever sees someone drilling or doing things not at 100% intensity he says its useless.

so he is entitled to his opinion and i would be glad to finally have his views clarified because he says a lot of contradictory nonsense

but you said it much much better than i did. my thoughts were too jumbled with shock and horror at Ts other posts of ridiculous nonsense

watch as the conversation gets derailed again into "you must fight with competent fighters" and your points never get addressed

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are many pros and cons to "natural fighting", just as there are to "unnatural fighting", for lack of better terms.
Those are non-issues, the only thing that matters is making your chosen system work for YOU and the only way to do that is Spar, Fight, Train hard AND smart and with the best people you can, period.
Realize your limitations, exploit your strengths, fight YOUR fight.
But I will say this:
The more "unnatural" your system is ( and there are advantages to this), the more crucial it is to spar and fight OUTSIDE that system.

[t_niehoff]

Here's what I don't get T. If the body as you say is hard wired to move and fight a certain way then why train anything. Why not just go fight and learn yourself. Why waste your time on learning techniques and skills if the body is only designed to fight one way. You know the way so why learn anything new. Martial Arts is about training your body to do something different then what it's pre programed to do. Your body can be reprogrammed to respond differently but you seem to think that it can't.


A thoughtful response. :)

When I talk about hard-wiring, I am talking about how our bodies move to perform tasks optimally (when pushed to 100%). For example, throwing a ball, lifting a heavy weight, etc. And just because something is hard-wired doesn't mean our performance doing that can't be improved with practice.

To perform at high levels of intensity (when we are pushed to our limit) requires that you move optimally to successfully perform task it is your are attempting. As I said, you can do all kinds of funny walks (low intensity) but when you need to go full-out, 100% as fast as you can (high intensity), everyone runs the same way, the way we're hard-wired. There isn't some "other" way of running. But there are all kinds of ways of walking.

Good MA IMO helps you find those optimal mechanics for various tasks and to develop them. It's not that we all fight one way, it's that there are optimal mechanics (and movement, tactics, etc.) in stand-up, in clinch, and on the ground. All the valid MAs use those same things, just emphasize them differently, combine them differently, etc.



To use your anology of the person getting thrown into the water. The person flails about with no skill and the result is lots of splashing with no forward movement. Then you take that swimmer and teach them how to move their body in a certain way so they begin to really swim. This person needed to change their ential response to splash about to something different. Isn't martial arts the same. Those brawlers are people that have just been thrown into the water. Their first response is to fail about. Can't we then take them and show them how to use their body in another way to achieve another result aka Wing chun fighting. If you can teach someone to swim with a different body movement then what they are preprogrammed too then why can't you do the same with a fighter.


When you first throw someone in the water, the will flail about. But with practice, even with no instruction, they will work out how to swim and can become good swimmers. And they will be doing exactly what ALL swimmers do. What a good swimming teacher does is speed up that process.



All fighting shouldn't look the same. If that's the case then then we all should quit what we are doing and just go fight someone. Who needs to train if our bodies already knows the movements.

Does all groundfighting "look" the same? Yes, in that everyone who competently fights on the ground is using the same fundamentals (which use our hard-wired movement). But how they use them varies, depending on their level of development, personal taste, build, etc. All boxers use the same fundamentals yet are not carbon copies.

And there is more to fighting that using hard-wired movement. We need to learn to play the game with that hard-wired movement.

[t_niehoff]

brilliant. exactly what i was saying about WCK. the postures are unnatural. thats why you will not stick to them if you have not trained enough. you need to re-harwire your brain to use the art instead of your natural response. and many times you need to strengthen muscles so that you can hold these postures


You speak of the "postures of WCK being unnatural". Well, perhaps what you and some others are doing is unnatural. But I find what I am doing to be very natural.

You can't re-wire your body. You can't re-hard-wire your brain to lift heavy weights differently or to run differently. Your body is "designed" (evolution) to move optimally in certain ways. There's no getting around that. And there are many other in-born constraints on what we can or cannot do.



when i wrestled in high school i can tell you it is not natural to squat down. your legs and lower back get tired. its not natural to stand like that. but guess what? there is a purpose and a reason for wrestlers to adopt that posture. and guess what? wrestling is in the holy trinitiy of MMA!!!! :eek:


Here's what you don't get -- yes, it is unnatural to STAND like that, but if you want to explode into something, then it is very natural. It's not natural to walk around pushing your hips forwar, but if you are trying to curl a heavy weight then it is natural. The mechanics depend on the TASK. Don't you grasp that?



i think your answer to "why train at all", however is in Ts history of posts. i think it is his opinion that any training that doesnt involve all out fighting is useless. go read his posts. if he ever sees someone drilling or doing things not at 100% intensity he says its useless.


You aren't reading my posts.

Let me ask you a question: if what you are practicing doesn't work at 100% full-out intensity (which is what you will be facing in a fight), then why train it? Aren't you then training to fail? Because you're training things that will crumble at a certain level of intensity, right.

So, how do you KNOW it will work at 100%, full-out intensity unless you do it?

And, if you want to train something, whatever it is, shouldn't you train it as you intend to do it? Now, I'm not saying that lower intensity drilling doesn't have its usefulness, but that skill in doing X comes from doing X.



so he is entitled to his opinion and i would be glad to finally have his views clarified because he says a lot of contradictory nonsense


You don't understand my views because you are not reading them to understand them.

[goju]

anyone who argues going 100 percent intensity doesnt know what hes talking about
i recall a shotokan master i forget his name who passed away recently who was a product of a karate school that went full out all the time and he even admitted it was too much and as a result he said in his exact words "ive been broken in so many places"
it is something you can only do here and there

[t_niehoff]

anyone who argues going 100 percent intensity doesnt know what hes talking about
i recall a shotokan master i forget his name who passed away recently who was a product of a karate school that went full out all the time and he even admitted it was too much and as a result he said in his exact words "ive been broken in so many places"
it is something you can only do here and there

When you fight, when someone is trying to beat you into oblivion, are you going to go at 100% intensity?

If so, how long will you last if you never train at that intensity?

And, do you realize that you can increase your max intensity by training at or near intensity? Or, do you think that you can become a faster sprinter by jogging around the track (to borrow Bruce's example)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Terrence,
You are not suggesting training full contact 100% intensity all the time are you?
Even pro fighters don't do that.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,
You are not suggesting training full contact 100% intensity all the time are you?
Even pro fighters don't do that.

No, I'm not suggesting that you do it ALL the time. But I am suggesting that you do it regularly and consistently.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I'm not suggesting that you do it ALL the time. But I am suggesting that you do it regularly and consistently.

Ah, cool, agreed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The human body and mind is not hardwired to do a rear cross, a kimura, a low single leg, a judo throw, an armbar, a cross side control holdown, a duck under his hook and come back with a hook of your own on his outside, a straight lead as he begins a rear roundhouse kick, etc.

These things must be learned by purposely going against certain "natural" body actions and reactions.

And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are "natural", ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might "naturally" do it....

to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.

So that's the general setting, and here's the particulars for one certain troll:

While it's true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)...

and while it's true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn't change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)...

regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not...

and regardless of whether or not you can make any of the WCK you've learned through the years work...

and regardless of whether or not you've turned to mma, boxing, MT, or anything else you say you've been working with as a means of getting over your frustrations.

Your limitations are not, ipso facto, everyone else's limitations. You are GREAT at trolling, though. Gotta give you that.

[t_niehoff]

The human body and mind is not hardwired to do a rear cross, a kimura, a low single leg, a judo throw, an armbar, a cross side control holdown, a duck under his hook and come back with a hook of your own on his outside, a straight lead as he begins a rear roundhouse kick, etc.


Anton Geesnik (sp) the famed judoka once did a seminar where he was across the hall from a dance class. He took his judoka into the dance class, and as an experiment asked the dancers to pair up, and one to lie of the floor and the other to do whatever it took to hold his partner down. Then Geesnik went around calling our the names for the various pins that were being used. The point he was making is that those things are very natural, there is only a limited way of pinning people, and you will find them just by trying to pin one another. That's how people found these things in the first place!

Or, you can speed up the process by instruction, by having someone who knows them show them to you.

If you get into a fight, and your opponent tries to pin you, it's going to look like judo or BJJ or wrestling. In other words, it is going to look like MMA.

If you try to twist someone's arm to hurt them, you'll find the kimura. If you try to kick them, you'll find the roundkick. If someone swings at you, you'll find the duckunder. These things are all very natural -- you can see little kids do them in schoolyards. They don't do them well. That's where training comes in.



These things must be learned by purposely going against certain "natural" body actions and reactions.


You are right insofar as certain natural reactions can be easily taken advantage of -- for example, it seems natural to try and push your opponent off when he is on top of you or turning your head when he tries to hit you. But what I am talking about is using optimal body mechanics (which are hard-wired).



And while it is true to say that certain body actions that are good fighting movements are "natural", ie.- a throwing round/hook punches, regardless of how clumsy or efficient any individual might "naturally" do it....

to try and take half of this equation just outlined and ignore the other half is to play mind games with oneself and with others.


What I am talking about is our using optimal body mechanics to perform various tasks. What that means is being able to perform at our max intensity (full-ouot, 100%). Those mechanics are obviously very natural and are hard-wired.

But the mechanics is just part of the picture. Another part is using those things to play the game. Playing the game involves other things.



So that's the general setting, and here's the particulars for one certain troll:

While it's true that vertical wing chun punches, for example, are not natural and must be learned (through SNT/SLT elbows-in training within the first section of the form)...

and while it's true that this type of punching technique has its limitations in functionality in a live setting - this doesn't change the fact that they can be used with great efficiency in the proper setting (ie.- in close and after a line has been opened and controlled)...

regardless of whether you personally can make it work or not...


And my view is that the WCK punch is very natural -- IF you use it in the right circumstances. As I have said before, the vertical fist is due to keeping the elbow down. Try uppercutting with your palm not facing your body! When you are attached, you find very quickly that you don't want to raise your elbow. If you do, then you either go flying or he takes your back or takes you down. So you keep your elbow down. Then when you punch, you have a "vertical" fist. Your punches also are straight (since hooks involve raising the elbow).

When you know WCK's method, the tools are very natural.

[JPinAZ]

You can't re-wire your body. You can't re-hard-wire your brain to lift heavy weights differently or to run differently. Your body is "designed" (evolution) to move optimally in certain ways. There's no getting around that. And there are many other in-born constraints on what we can or cannot do.


Wrong, all wrong. Most people bend over and lift with thier backs naturally. Is that optimal? No. Most people have to 'learn' to lift with thier legs and keep thier backs straight/head up. Some might figure it out over time some might not, but it's not hard-wired. And you can re-wire the brain, happens all the time. Look at people that suffer severe head trama and damage part of thier brain. Thier brains re-hardwire naturally. And this can also be done thru repetitious practice of a given activity.

As for you stupid swimming analogy, you're wrong there too. Most people, if they learn by themselves how to swim, might just get to the doggy paddle level. Is this optimal? Nope, but it's natural. So for you to say that we are designed to move optimally from birth, then there would be no need to re-wire ourselves as we do so often (in sports, in fighting, acrobatics, etc). We all aren't born to juggle, walk a tightrope, swim using a breast stroke, lift with our legs, etc. These things are learned thru repetitive practice and self re-wiring.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wrong, all wrong. Most people bend over and lift with thier backs naturally. Is that optimal? No. Most people have to 'learn' to lift with thier legs and keep thier backs straight/head up. Some might figure it out over time some might not, but it's not hard-wired. And you can re-wire the brain, happens all the time. Look at people that suffer severe head trama and damage part of thier brain. Thier brains re-hardwire naturally. And this can also be done thru repetitious practice of a given activity.

As for you stupid swimming analogy, you're wrong there too. Most people, if they learn by themselves how to swim, might just get to the doggy paddle level. Is this optimal? Nope, but it's natural. So for you to say that we are designed to move optimally from birth, then there would be no need to re-wire ourselves as we do so often (in sports, in fighting, acrobatics, etc). We all aren't born to juggle, walk a tightrope, swim using a breast stroke, lift with our legs, etc. These things are learned thru repetitive practice and self re-wiring.

Yes, I agree with you JP...The Unnatural become natural through repetitious practice and diligence. To increase ones skill you have to fight and practice. A person who never fights will not be hardwired to fight effectively if he has never fought. Even fighting at high intensity is training. You are doing Anerobic training conditioning your mind and body to react effeciently at a high level.

So once again practice makes perfect!

[sihing]

From what I am reading of T's posts (correct me if I'm wrong T), he is saying that there is an optimal way of moving. IMO optimal is not always natural. Natural is the way you were taught to do something, not to mean that all human do things the same (the devil is in the details). Some people do things a certain way, these ways become natural to them alone depending on how much of that thing they are doing. The basic idea of how to hit a tennis ball is the same for all players (swing racket, hit ball) , but the way the individual player hits the ball is unique to them alone. What I am talking about here is timing, mechanics, set up and so forth. McEnroe and Borg were both great players, with two totally different ways to hit the ball, as both players affected the ball differently by the way the hit it. Borg’s swing produced lots of top spin which made the ball go high over the net and dip drastically after that, while bouncing high once it landed. McEnroe's shots were flatter and at times had underspin, therefore his shots were not so high above the net but were more direct in motion from his racket to the opposite side of the court. They also had totally different setups, with the same result, tennis ball hit from point A to B.

IMO WC brings someone’s natural ability to hit with their fists and feet and optimises it to become more powerful, simple & direct. Any striker from any system can learn something useful from the WC training system, as it is not about technique, but rather mechanics. Now for example, if you are constantly tensing your shoulders when you punch, you are not punching optimally. Yes you still may have good power from your shot, but it is not the best you can do, as something is holding back your full potential, plus injury can happen as well if too much shoulder is involved. WC does not tell you how to fight, or what to do when this or that attack is coming your way, it only trains your body to perform a specific physical movement at a higher than average ability level, it's physical as well as mental performance enhancement.
Instead of loading up my punch by drawing it back, I can hit from where ever the fist is, this is efficiency and directness. Simplicity is the fact that there aren't many moving parts in the punch, just a simple usage of ones legs with a connected body mechanic to produce a good punch. Our legs are already powerful from daily use, all one has to do is learn how to connect it with your upper body blows on every shot, for basic usage. The cool part is that this method has less stress on your body, because it is being optimized to produce the force in your blows as well as absorb it (receiving impact force). Again if too much shoulder is involved in your punching motion, you will injury it for sure, with possible lifetime effect, even though you are still punching somewhat hard. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things that is T’s point IMO. It has nothing really to do with the application of the abilities WC gives one, that is a different game and has all to do with sparring.

James

[Pacman]

Let me ask you a question: if what you are practicing doesn't work at 100% full-out intensity (which is what you will be facing in a fight), then why train it? Aren't you then training to fail? Because you're training things that will crumble at a certain level of intensity, right.


again... this is so crazy. of course practicing things that would never work in real life is useless. when did i or anyone ever advocate or defend this. also, why are you talking like you know what i train will crumble at certain levels of intensity?



So, how do you KNOW it will work at 100%, full-out intensity unless you do it?

no argument there




And, if you want to train something, whatever it is, shouldn't you train it as you intend to do it? Now, I'm not saying that lower intensity drilling doesn't have its usefulness, but that skill in doing X comes from doing X.

no argument here again.

this is another example of you arguing against ghosts.

although you may say low intensity and drills have its place, you poo poo any vid that doesnt show two people going bananas on each other.

you also poo poo fundamental WC principles and poo poo WC as a whole and then say that WC is your primary art

[Pacman]

while the judoka example sounds impressive you are over generalizing and trying to make a solid rule out of a few examples.

you know what is another natural reaction when some projectile is coming at your face? to close your eyes and to lean back. im sure oyu have seen unskilled fighters leaning back and flailing their arms at each other.

not every natural reaction is a good one and not all styles of fighting will be the same under a real situation



Anton Geesnik (sp) the famed judoka once did a seminar where he was across the hall from a dance class. He took his judoka into the dance class, and as an experiment asked the dancers to pair up, and one to lie of the floor and the other to do whatever it took to hold his partner down. Then Geesnik went around calling our the names for the various pins that were being used. The point he was making is that those things are very natural, there is only a limited way of pinning people, and you will find them just by trying to pin one another. That's how people found these things in the first place!

Or, you can speed up the process by instruction, by having someone who knows them show them to you.

If you get into a fight, and your opponent tries to pin you, it's going to look like judo or BJJ or wrestling. In other words, it is going to look like MMA.

If you try to twist someone's arm to hurt them, you'll find the kimura. If you try to kick them, you'll find the roundkick. If someone swings at you, you'll find the duckunder. These things are all very natural -- you can see little kids do them in schoolyards. They don't do them well. That's where training comes in.



You are right insofar as certain natural reactions can be easily taken advantage of -- for example, it seems natural to try and push your opponent off when he is on top of you or turning your head when he tries to hit you. But what I am talking about is using optimal body mechanics (which are hard-wired).



What I am talking about is our using optimal body mechanics to perform various tasks. What that means is being able to perform at our max intensity (full-ouot, 100%). Those mechanics are obviously very natural and are hard-wired.

But the mechanics is just part of the picture. Another part is using those things to play the game. Playing the game involves other things.



And my view is that the WCK punch is very natural -- IF you use it in the right circumstances. As I have said before, the vertical fist is due to keeping the elbow down. Try uppercutting with your palm not facing your body! When you are attached, you find very quickly that you don't want to raise your elbow. If you do, then you either go flying or he takes your back or takes you down. So you keep your elbow down. Then when you punch, you have a "vertical" fist. Your punches also are straight (since hooks involve raising the elbow).

When you know WCK's method, the tools are very natural.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.

[Yoshiyahu]

The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.

Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.

But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???

Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.

But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???

Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?

I used the flinch as an example, unlike you puny mortals, I have no flinch reflex :D


On a serious note, you first must see what your flinch reflex is, we all have different ones, then see how to make it combative, then drill it with low intensity, then up the drill to full intensity and then train it in full contact sparring.
Just like you do with anything new you are adding to your arsenal.

[kungfublow]

The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.

I get what your saying here. Maybe a example of this from my own experience is during lap sao. When someone goes for a body shot my flinch instinct is to drop my elbow and try to block it. Basically I'm chasing his hands. Just last night I was working on this with a training partner and the correct response to someone taking their hand away to try a body shot on you is for you to feel that loss of connection and go right to punching him first. Your hand will be faster because it's closer. Hopefully I explained that right.

You can train yourself to have different flinch responses to things. Take playing catch for example. When a child first starts to play catch their first reponse is to duck away from the ball. After awhile their frist response will just be to put their glove up. This isn't natural and it takes some time to teach the body this new response.

[Pacman]

The point is to take the most optimal way of doing something and make it as natural as possible.
Of course certain artificial activities will not be natural, but if we can take a natural movement, like the flinch instinct, and build a combative action from it, it will be all the more effective.

i agree i am all for it. but his whole point was that all fighting is going to look the same because we all move in the same way due to the natural hard wiring of our brains and evolution etc.

my point was that yes we might have some natural reactions based on our natural reflexes and what we think fighting is supposed to look lke, but training will overcome that and if you train to fight a certain way not all fighting from all styles will be the same thing

[Yoshiyahu]

I used the flinch as an example, unlike you puny mortals, I have no flinch reflex :D


On a serious note, you first must see what your flinch reflex is, we all have different ones, then see how to make it combative, then drill it with low intensity, then up the drill to full intensity and then train it in full contact sparring.
Just like you do with anything new you are adding to your arsenal.


Great analogy very useful post....


I get what your saying here. Maybe a example of this from my own experience is during lap sao. When someone goes for a body shot my flinch instinct is to drop my elbow and try to block it. Basically I'm chasing his hands. Just last night I was working on this with a training partner and the correct response to someone taking their hand away to try a body shot on you is for you to feel that loss of connection and go right to punching him first. Your hand will be faster because it's closer. Hopefully I explained that right.

You can train yourself to have different flinch responses to things. Take playing catch for example. When a child first starts to play catch their first reponse is to duck away from the ball. After awhile their frist response will just be to put their glove up. This isn't natural and it takes some time to teach the body this new response.

Very true.....Great example thank you i will be stealing your example of natural vs unnatural...ha ha.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.

But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???

Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?

combative action from flinching dont flinch just practice not flinching or just close your eyes and let someone hit you in the face (not hard) just enough to get the feel of things

[m1k3]

I agree, this has been an interesting thread! :eek:

I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:

1. Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won't be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn't for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.

2. Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.

What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent's conditioning and fighting heart.

So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.

:D

[Yoshiyahu]

Personally I think a skilled WC fighter will still look like he is doing WC even against someone who is better than he is. The difference is he will look like a guy doing WC getting beat up. Theres a difference between Fighting with WC and winning oppose to fighting with WC and getting the snot knock out of you.


Win or Loose your art shouldn't degrade to a halleluyah kick boxer.

Your structure and applications should still resemble WC. If it doesn't that is due to your lack of using actual WC to fight with. Many people take concepts of WC and fight with them. But just because you fight with the concepts and principals doesn't mean your doing WC? You must also use the hand techniques, structure, footwork, Theory and Concepts to do look like your doing WC?

Some choose to use concepts and principals only because they don't like to start off loosing when they spar. Thats why some schools teach you shouldnt fight with your WC until you have learn atleast Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Gee. Doing Chi sau begins to give you muscle memory on how to use your structure and hand techniques. You should gradually go from Chi sau to Fighting.

But I believe if you start engraining the WC structure and techniques in the beginning and force them fight only use WC structure, footwork and techniques then that person after a year or two will be formidable using nothing but WC with out degrading to halleluyah kickboxer.


I agree, this has been an interesting thread! :eek:

I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:

1. Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won't be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn't for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.

2. Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.

What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent's conditioning and fighting heart.

So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.

:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change." (M1K3)
...............................

The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range...the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)...and do it consistently enough...without help by borrowing from other systems.

THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.

As I said earlier on this thread, this "question" doesn't even arise with other systems ("how will it look in fighting")...hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)

This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems...

but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!

The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.

[m1k3]

Victor, this isn't just a wing chun issue. Boxing and Muay Thai ran into the same problems in the early UFC fights. It didn't mean they couldn't be used any more it just meant that they needed to adapt to new ranges and grappling (standing and on the ground). It then happened to the bjj guys when a bunch of wrestlers figured out how to add some submission defense and ground and pound to their toolboxes.

I like Wing Chun, it is a good tool to have. It reminds me a lot of dirty boxing with clinching, close strikes, elbows and knees.

There is no complete or best art. Its kind of like the game of rock, scissors and paper. If you only do rock it could be a long night if you get in a fight.:D

[Pacman]

hi victor

i think our discussion got derailed...i responded to you about this here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=960895&postcount=86

id like to hear your opinions



"What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change." (M1K3)
...............................

The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range...the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)...and do it consistently enough...without help by borrowing from other systems.

THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.

As I said earlier on this thread, this "question" doesn't even arise with other systems ("how will it look in fighting")...hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)

This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems...

but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!

The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.

[Yoshiyahu]

hi victor

i think our discussion got derailed...i responded to you about this here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=960895&postcount=86

id like to hear your opinions

Whats the discussion suppose to be about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

1. "sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?" (Pacman)
...............................................

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
.............................................


2. "lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
.......................................

**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

[Vajramusti]

The intense portion of a fight is when leg or hand contact is possible. If you can reach them they can reach you and vice versa. The real question involves ways to handle contact and whether one has practiced top quality wing chun footwork. Ah well-same old same old points.

joy chaudhuri.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun short range is as follows.

Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.


Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.

Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.

[JPinAZ]

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.


While it's true that WC does use a 'shorter range' punch, that doesn't mean it has to bridge with those close range shapes. Nor does it mean that 'WC' only exists once you are in that range. WC has long and short range bridging abilities, which allows the practitioner to engage the opponent from what some term as the outside range, in 180 degrees, to get into a range and position where they can use those shorter range 'WC punches' effectively.

To say WC is close range only because the fighter is 'more squared up' when striking is a misrepresentation of the system IMO. To say WC is just close range striking system would be ignoring the bridging aspects of WC, which start with Bai Jong and allows the practitioner a chance to connect with the opponent safely, bridge the gap, controll the line and apponent's COG and safely deliver strikes from a position of advantage - From longer range into closer-in striking range.



**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

While I agree that it's harder to fight someone with a reach, weight, height or skill advantage, WC concepts and theroies still apply regardless.
IMO, if there was a De La Hoya vs. Lewis fight, Oscar's best strategy would be simply to run :)
Lenox outweighs him by over 100 pounds of muscle! :eek:

[Pacman]

ok i see what you are saying. i didnt catch the first part because in YKS WC we have many strikes where we turn our body. we start from a squared off position with our elbows in, but we turn when striking so i guess by your definition we do have long range weapons.

regardless, in the de la hoya example yes you are right if he cant get in he will lose...but thats an IF. there is footwork and a myriad of techniques for moving in. even if you mixed your WC with the longer range strikes you are talking about, that still wont help you get in. that will just increase your reach by a few inches. you still need the skill to move inside

my whole point about the spear and sword analogy is that the spear has a longer reach yes, but just because it has a longer reach it is not considered the ultimate weapon by any means because once you bypass the spears reach with a sword you can then dominate



1. "sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?" (Pacman)
...............................................

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
.............................................


2. "lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
.......................................

**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

If give this another try, but I suspect that no matter what, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

In the following vid, which lasts for 2:40 - pay particular attention to the first 1:10 of it. It was made by yours truly, and the first 1:10 might throw some light on the "reach" and "distance" issues I've been addressing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1d1OyedoDE

AND THEN, watch part2...

which is 2:05 minutes long - with particular attention to what's being said and done around 1:35 of the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7rdDn3uTR8&feature=related

[Pacman]

in the first video you talk about reach and distance issues taht were apparent between the tall guy and the short guy. i get that.

but i dont see how that is unique to WC. even if you were boxer vs boxer--if you fight a guy with a longer reach than you, you will have those issues too

with the way you do your WC punches, then yes you will have less reach than if you did boxing style punches, but its all relative. at some point whether boxer or WC'er you will fight someone where you have a significant reach disadvantage.

[Ultimatewingchun]

If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely...

because then I'm attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn't exist within wing chun....

instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)...

and/or....

instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own...

because the best defense is not defense - it's offense.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Wing Chun short range is as follows.

Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.


Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.

Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.


Do you have any pics or videos of you doing anything?

[Pacman]

yeah you are correct. it only makes sense to utilize your reach. maybe try learning some YKS WC...turning while punching is integral.


If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely...

because then I'm attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn't exist within wing chun....

instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)...

and/or....

instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own...

because the best defense is not defense - it's offense.

[sihing]

Let's just say, if you are using facing concepts (having the ability to use two hands at the same time) while on the outside range (only kicking range), then you are mis-using the system. You trying to fight in a particular style, instead of using the training to aid you in combat, in other words your being unnatural in your actions. One of the reasons for chi sau is to train "contact" reflexes, what to do when contact is made, if there is no contact you just hit. Like Joy said, the dangerous range is when leg and hand contact can be made which is VT range.
If your sitting there waitin for your opponent to hit you then again you are mis-using the system, why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game? Yes, we have to adapt to our opponent, but the same it true for them.

Gotta run...

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If there is no contact you just hit...If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you...why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?" (sihing/James)
.............................................

***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I'm outside of contact range, let's say a good 3' away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I'm very curious?

Just walk in until I'm real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you're saying?"

[sihing]

"If there is no contact you just hit...If your sitting there waiting for your opponent to hit you...why are you still and not engaging in combat, why are you not taking his space and playing your game?" (sihing/James)
.............................................

***JUST HIT WITH WHAT? If I'm outside of contact range, let's say a good 3' away from even being at bridge range, what do you suggest I hit him with - from the wing chun arsenal? I'm very curious?

Just walk in until I'm real close to bridge range, and then with my next step I can start hitting? Is that what you're saying?"

Firstly, my thinking is not about hitting someone with something from the "Wing Chun" aresnal. If your thinking this way your limiting yourself, and your trying to display a style. Like walking with a ball and chain attached to yourself, something will always be holding you back if that is what you are trying to do. Basically I don't see WC as a bunch of techniques, straight punch, this or that block or entry tech, but rather a training method to teaches you to hit harder than you normally would with a support system to back you when your hitting runs into problems(basic ideology). For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made. Application is anything that works in that situation. If someone enters the range where they can hit you, you should be hitting them as well, what happens from there no one knows, as no Martial Art can guarantee anything.

Range is only important if you are not familar with dealing that range. All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing. Mis timing's will be made, but this is what the learning process is all about, the more mistakes you make, the better your skills will get, trial and error training. When doing this you are not really concerned with defeating them, but rather just learning from your interaction with them.

James

[Vajramusti]

With bik ma, timing and a sense of the line strike! Pak or lop if you need to!!

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm with you when you say this, James...

"For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made."

BUT WHEN YOU SAY THIS...

"All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing..."

***YOU lose me. It's not just a "timing thing" to be able to enter (successfully) against a boxer, kick boxer, or wrestler - even after you take the time to "familiarize" yourself with what they're doing. You have to have the tools to make that "timing" work, and those tools come from a lot more than just "familiarity" with what they're doing - it requires taking much of what they're doing and getting good at it - so that you can actually use a significant amount of it as part of your game...

because what they're doing is not part of your wing chun game; which, as you correctly pointed out earlier in your post - "kicks in when contact is made".

Well almost correct, imo. Wing Chun "kicks in" just about at, but not necessarily dependent upon, CONTACT.

[duende]

I have to say I respectfully disagree with you here James. Range is always important... Be if pre-contact or contact. If you hit when it's the wrong time to hit, you very well could be offering a stronger bridge to your opponant then any strike you are dishing out.
The way I see it, many techniques like the WC chain punch fail because they are attempted at too far of a range or when your opponant still has some timing/leverage that has not been sufficiently dealt with.
While I agree with you that Chi Sau teaches reactions etc... in my experience it is more beneficial as a facing/leveraging tool to learn what body mechanics are the correct one's to deal with the bridging or lack of bridging at hand. IE... When it is time to use a hand gun as opposed to an AK47 or Cannon for example.
Best,

Alex

[Vajramusti]

Different terminologies and takes.
To each his own, it appears. joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

I love pak and lop, Joy, and use them all the time. But what I'm saying is that these are just some tools to use in a game that requires many tools.

[sihing]

Vic,

Maybe a misunderstanding on what I meant?? When training with the boxers, wrestlers and such, you are learning how apply your training, not really learning how to do what they are doing. The more you do this, the more comfortable you will be against those types of fighters. Make sense? If one chooses to learn those disiplines then fine, that is up to the individual, nothing wrong with it of course. But the question is, for an average person's needs regarding self defence, is cross learning needed? IMO no. If your competing yes, you will need to crosstrain in other arts to win your matches. But as others said, your core striking will come from WC, supplemented from boxing, MT, and whatever else you want to mix in.

Alex,

Range is important, maybe I used the wrong word. Let's replace it with "Concern", if you are training with all types of fighters, Range will not be as much of a concern for you since you are accustomed to the various ranges involved. Play with a boxer for 6mths staight then spar a wrestler and you will see and feel a difference. Control of range is important, that is why you don't want someone to get in "your" range and then travel out of it over and over again. Wing Chun, or rather someone training in WC can function in any range, as we are not robots, but function best while close in striking. Chi sau reactions IMO included the body mechanic/structures need to succeed while close in. If your on the outside, and using WC concept/applications you'll end up chasing hands, wasting time trying to deal with what the other guy is trying to hit you with. When he hits, you step in as well, dealing with the blow and attacking yourself (easier said then done, that is why practice and more practice is needed). Whether you counter is successful or not, you have eaten his space which is one of the WC strategies.

In the end, it doesn't matter what you look like when you fight, results are what matter, but doing things, like using facing concepts at longer ranges makes no sense to me, since it doesn't apply at that moment of the fight (when to use a hand gun vs. when to use a shot gun).


James

[-木叶-]

Firstly, my thinking is not about hitting someone with something from the "Wing Chun" aresnal. If your thinking this way your limiting yourself, and your trying to display a style. Like walking with a ball and chain attached to yourself, something will always be holding you back if that is what you are trying to do. Basically I don't see WC as a bunch of techniques, straight punch, this or that block or entry tech, but rather a training method to teaches you to hit harder than you normally would with a support system to back you when your hitting runs into problems(basic ideology). For me there is nothing stopping me from throwing a jab, side kick or any other so called long range strike, WC attributes kick in when contact is made. Application is anything that works in that situation. If someone enters the range where they can hit you, you should be hitting them as well, what happens from there no one knows, as no Martial Art can guarantee anything.

Range is only important if you are not familar with dealing that range. All one has to do if you are training in the Wing Chun method, is after awhile work with boxers, kickers, wrestlers to familarize yourself with what they are doing and learn how to enter on them, mostly a timing thing. Mis timing's will be made, but this is what the learning process is all about, the more mistakes you make, the better your skills will get, trial and error training. When doing this you are not really concerned with defeating them, but rather just learning from your interaction with them.

James

I agree, thanks for the insight.

[m1k3]

Very interesting so far, but what I don't understand is why you assume you will have an advantage once you have acheived your close in range? Care to trade in close with a Mike Tyson or a Joe Fraser? :eek: How about Randy Couture or Rashad Evens or any skilled Judo player? As I have said before your opponent has his say on how the game is played also.

[duende]

Very interesting so far, but what I don't understand is why you assume you will have an advantage once you have acheived your close in range? Care to trade in close with a Mike Tyson or a Joe Fraser? :eek: How about Randy Couture or Rashad Evens or any skilled Judo player? As I have said before your opponent has his say on how the game is played also.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Range must be accompanied by leverage and energy awareness of the bridge at hand or space present.
If you get in close without the support of footwork, facing/positioning... Then most likely, you will not have a strong enough control of yourself, the bridge, or your opponant... And you will not have the time and space to nuetralize oncoming energy at the heaven, human, earth. Without even striking, your oponant can crash your techniques, bounce you, and send you flying.

James,
I'm not talking about chasing hands. By range, I'm talking about using precise measurement tools so that one can judge timing for bridging, engagement and occupying space.

By the sound of things, it seems many here may have recently adopted the "occupying space" term these days, but in HFY, when we refer to occupying space we mean "the strongest structure in space" as in "only one object can occupy one space at one time". This often refers to centerline domination, but it also comes in to play in bridging and leveraging upon engagement.

In HFY, we also have another saying... We don't chase hands, we chase space!

Good training to you all!

[chusauli]

In WCK we say, "Mo Juie Sao, Juie Shen!" (Don't chase the hands, chase the body.)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I say yes, chase space, (the most important space) occupy and control it, then chase the body...unless you can do both all at the same time - which is even better.

For example, he gives you an opening within a very important piece of real estate, and you throw a big rear cross and knock him out.

And I agree with you too, m1k3, wing chun has its limits at close range also, ie.- it may go to clinch and there's nothing you can do about it (or perhaps nothing you should even want to do about it, because a clinch might be to your advantage)...

since you've crosstrained enough so that you're prepared for all three of the most important ranges: standup, clinch, and ground.

The only asterisk I would add is long and short range standup, ie.- the preferred wing chun range.

[m1k3]

And I agree with you too, m1k3, wing chun has its limits at close range also, ie.- it may go to clinch and there's nothing you can do about it (or perhaps nothing you should even want to do about it, because a clinch might be to your advantage)...



Victor, I wasn't commenting about Wing Chun's limits at close range as much as I was saying there are other styles that like the inside game also. So, don't assume you have an advantage just because you closed the gap.

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you have any pics or videos of you doing anything?

I do not have any vids yet. I would love to take some...Maybe when you come to STL bring your camera?

[sihing]

Very interesting so far, but what I don't understand is why you assume you will have an advantage once you have acheived your close in range? Care to trade in close with a Mike Tyson or a Joe Fraser? :eek: How about Randy Couture or Rashad Evens or any skilled Judo player? As I have said before your opponent has his say on how the game is played also.

Who's assuming anything? Plus why put pro's into the mix when we are not talking about using our skills against anyone of that calibre? It wouldn't matter what anyone here is learning or training, none of us would stand a chance in the ring or a fist fight against any of those you mention, lol (if any here did, wouldn't they be doing it?). How about we keep this about average joe's with average intent and average amounts of time to train.

It is true that your opponent has a say as well as to what will happen, that is the game or equation everyone must solve when they fight, who can play their own game and not let the other play their's.

James

[sihing]

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Range must be accompanied by leverage and energy awareness of the bridge at hand or space present.
If you get in close without the support of footwork, facing/positioning... Then most likely, you will not have a strong enough control of yourself, the bridge, or your opponant... And you will not have the time and space to nuetralize oncoming energy at the heaven, human, earth. Without even striking, your oponant can crash your techniques, bounce you, and send you flying.

James,
I'm not talking about chasing hands. By range, I'm talking about using precise measurement tools so that one can judge timing for bridging, engagement and occupying space.

By the sound of things, it seems many here may have recently adopted the "occupying space" term these days, but in HFY, when we refer to occupying space we mean "the strongest structure in space" as in "only one object can occupy one space at one time". This often refers to centerline domination, but it also comes in to play in bridging and leveraging upon engagement.

In HFY, we also have another saying... We don't chase hands, we chase space!

Good training to you all!


Hi Alex,

I think when we talk about things on the forum, it must be assumed that when we isolate a particular topic, like Range, we must unconsiously assume that everything else is included. Of course leverage and energy awareness/sensitivity (or anything else you want to mix in) is there as well, this is all a given. The problem with using presice measuring tools, is that in a fight nothing is presice. If I'm thinking about precisely measuring my tools in a fight I will lose. All this stuff is done in the training, learning how to occupy or eat space, measuring range and distance, energy awareness, bla bla bla..all for us to absorb in training and use naturally when we need it in a fight. If you complicate things too much you get caught up in the act of moving, when all it took was a fist in the face to finish the fight. Everything you have mentioned is there in most all WC, as I agree it is not only about occupying space but doing so with you having the strongest structure in place against his weakest. Great things to have on paper, not always possible in reality. The first rule is to hit, hopefully you've trained enough so that these other things fall into place naturally for you as you hit.

Simplicity is the key.

James

[sihing]

In WCK we say, "Mo Juie Sao, Juie Shen!" (Don't chase the hands, chase the body.)

Total agreement here, nice and simple. The question is when do we do that, from far away while we are kicking him to death or closer in. How is the structure and body mechanics different when one is far away or closer in, or is there a difference?

James

[m1k3]

Who's assuming anything? Plus why put pro's into the mix when we are not talking about using our skills against anyone of that calibre? It wouldn't matter what anyone here is learning or training, none of us would stand a chance in the ring or a fist fight against any of those you mention, lol (if any here did, wouldn't they be doing it?). How about we keep this about average joe's with average intent and average amounts of time to train.

It is true that your opponent has a say as well as to what will happen, that is the game or equation everyone must solve when they fight, who can play their own game and not let the other play their's.

James

Hi James, the pros were merely examples of people who have inside fighting skills and are not wing chun players. As for assuming read the posts in this thread. The discussion seems to stop once the bridge has been acheived and you have achieved inside position. I was merely pointing out that just because you have accomplished this goal it doesn't mean you have acheived a dominating position.

There are plenty of average people who train boxing or kickboxing who like the inside game and all grapplers play the inside game. Try to guess the number of people who are former high school or college wrestlers. In the US at least that can be a large number. Failure to remember this can lead to a left hook to the liver or watching the sky fly past as you are about to make violent contact with the earth. Wing Chun wants to play the inside game, and I agree, but just remember others can play that game also.

Mike.

[duende]

Hi Alex,

I think when we talk about things on the forum, it must be assumed that when we isolate a particular topic, like Range, we must unconsiously assume that everything else is included. Of course leverage and energy awareness/sensitivity (or anything else you want to mix in) is there as well, this is all a given. The problem with using presice measuring tools, is that in a fight nothing is presice. If I'm thinking about precisely measuring my tools in a fight I will lose. All this stuff is done in the training, learning how to occupy or eat space, measuring range and distance, energy awareness, bla bla bla..all for us to absorb in training and use naturally when we need it in a fight. If you complicate things too much you get caught up in the act of moving, when all it took was a fist in the face to finish the fight. Everything you have mentioned is there in most all WC, as I agree it is not only about occupying space but doing so with you having the strongest structure in place against his weakest. Great things to have on paper, not always possible in reality. The first rule is to hit, hopefully you've trained enough so that these other things fall into place naturally for you as you hit.

Simplicity is the key.

James

Hey James,

I'm not advocating thinking about precise measuring tools when fighting. That's completely missing the point of my posts.

We have a saying... "The mind understands, the body knows" A WC'ers body has to be able to express the knowledge gained during training.

However, and this is getting to the point of my previous posts... If one advocates hitting without being in the right time and space to hit... IE range, they instead will get hit.

In my experience, there exists in many WC practitioner's today, a sheer over-confidense and/or false sense of security when getting in close.

Just because you were able to close the gap, does not mean that your opponent has no more bullets in their guns.

Time and time again, I witness both first hand and in video's WC fighters get in close without realizing how truly compromised their positioning and range is. Sure, they may have achieved some inside line of attack, but it is all an illusion. As their opponent still has their COG, still has leverage, while the chunner's footwork is vulnerable, and their bridge can't even support themselves, much less generate a real hit.

Like M1k3 says, many other fighters have their inside game as well. Just because the Chunner can get off a couple shots... does not mean the game is over. Heck, we all know people who can take these shots and more. Not to mention, many fighters will jam up your execution, and basically swallow you.

Sure, we all have study WCK and use similar terms and concepts. But how we express these concepts is sometimes very different.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe you and I are in complete agreement here, m1k3. While I have great respect and enthusiasm for the wing chun close quarter infight striking game, I also recognize that certain boxing styles, ie.- Marciano, Tyson, Frazier, and certainly close quarter standup wrestling in the clinch, Muay Thai, judo, sambo, etc....all offer infighting tools that wing chun does not...

and in fact, these are tools that are extremely important to have at least some decent skill at doing if one wants to be a truly well rounded inside fighter.

In other words, yes, I agree that wing chun has its limitations even within the close quarter standup game.

Can this be said enough?: 21ft century fighting is all about crosstraining!

[Wayfaring]

Hey James,

I'm not advocating thinking about precise measuring tools when fighting. That's completely missing the point of my posts.

We have a saying... "The mind understands, the body knows" A WC'ers body has to be able to express the knowledge gained during training.

However, and this is getting to the point of my previous posts... If one advocates hitting without being in the right time and space to hit... IE range, they instead will get hit.

In my experience, there exists in many WC practitioner's today, a sheer over-confidense and/or false sense of security when getting in close.

Just because you were able to close the gap, does not mean that your opponent has no more bullets in their guns.

Time and time again, I witness both first hand and in video's WC fighters get in close without realizing how truly compromised their positioning and range is. Sure, they may have achieved some inside line of attack, but it is all an illusion. As their opponent still has their COG, still has leverage, while the chunner's footwork is vulnerable, and their bridge can't even support themselves, much less generate a real hit.

Like M1k3 says, many other fighters have their inside game as well. Just because the Chunner can get off a couple shots... does not mean the game is over. Heck, we all know people who can take these shots and more. Not to mention, many fighters will jam up your execution, and basically swallow you.

Sure, we all have study WCK and use similar terms and concepts. But how we express these concepts is sometimes very different.

There's a couple of things I want to add to Alex's response here specifically to do with HFY and how its trained, of course from my perspective. First, "chasing space" and "only one object can occupy space at one time". This is all framed within a structured body support. For example, with a HFY 6 gate stance, both elbows on the nipple line, structured support for inner and outer hands (man sau / wu sau) and on the centerline, nothing is going to power through that to take your centerline. Sure, movement can change that and no longer make that the centerline, then that's a different game.

Next, HFY trains structured stances and support for body parts from day one. So yes you can in a fight situation maintain your own structure which includes measurements of your body parts like your elbow being a fist away from your chest and on the nipple line. And sweeping space to clear to the upper tan tien and out to the shoulder zero line and not further which would expose your balance / facing.

So what Alex is talking about in context here with the "right time and space" to hit that doesn't just correspond to the range is that your own body alignment, structures, and facing have to be intact for this to be the right time and space. Otherwise it is just trading "lucky punches" as opposed to striking with structure and power behind it.

And while yes HFY trains this, good fighters that I have seen develop an intuition for this kind of stuff as well from other disciplines. And I'm sure other WCK disciplines get to this as well through training. Just one example - Klitschko is kind of a centerline puncher for a boxer, and from my observations he does very well at drawing his opponent in to his structured space - gets them to overextend and thus be offbalanced while he maintains his balance and structure. Klitschko strikes with the right space and time IMO more than I've seen his opponents do.

Anyway, my .02.

[m1k3]

Who's assuming anything? Plus why put pro's into the mix when we are not talking about using our skills against anyone of that calibre? It wouldn't matter what anyone here is learning or training, none of us would stand a chance in the ring or a fist fight against any of those you mention, lol (if any here did, wouldn't they be doing it?). How about we keep this about average joe's with average intent and average amounts of time to train.

It is true that your opponent has a say as well as to what will happen, that is the game or equation everyone must solve when they fight, who can play their own game and not let the other play their's.

James

James, I had a chance to think about your "average joes" comment. Anybody who has trained a couple of hours a week for 6 months or so is no longer an average joe. Your average joe doesn't train and doesn't have even basic fighting skills. I am willing to bet that the majority of us who post here are in the top 20 or 30 percent of the population when it comes to fighting skills. Just like the people who like to jog or run. Even a casual jogger who only does a couple of hours a week of running is in MUCH better shape than your average joe.

So even if you are at the low end of the training spectrum when it comes to martial arts you are still much better than your average joe.

Comments anyone?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I do not have any vids yet. I would love to take some...Maybe when you come to STL bring your camera?

ya i might get to STL in acouple months. If your in Southwest MO let me know.

[Yoshiyahu]

ya i might get to STL in acouple months. If your in Southwest MO let me know.

Good when you get here you can teach me some submission wrestling...anyway hit me up with a private pm...i give you my information so you can look me up.

[duende]

There's a couple of things I want to add to Alex's response here specifically to do with HFY and how its trained, of course from my perspective. First, "chasing space" and "only one object can occupy space at one time". This is all framed within a structured body support. For example, with a HFY 6 gate stance, both elbows on the nipple line, structured support for inner and outer hands (man sau / wu sau) and on the centerline, nothing is going to power through that to take your centerline. Sure, movement can change that and no longer make that the centerline, then that's a different game.

Next, HFY trains structured stances and support for body parts from day one. So yes you can in a fight situation maintain your own structure which includes measurements of your body parts like your elbow being a fist away from your chest and on the nipple line. And sweeping space to clear to the upper tan tien and out to the shoulder zero line and not further which would expose your balance / facing.

So what Alex is talking about in context here with the "right time and space" to hit that doesn't just correspond to the range is that your own body alignment, structures, and facing have to be intact for this to be the right time and space. Otherwise it is just trading "lucky punches" as opposed to striking with structure and power behind it.

And while yes HFY trains this, good fighters that I have seen develop an intuition for this kind of stuff as well from other disciplines. And I'm sure other WCK disciplines get to this as well through training. Just one example - Klitschko is kind of a centerline puncher for a boxer, and from my observations he does very well at drawing his opponent in to his structured space - gets them to overextend and thus be offbalanced while he maintains his balance and structure. Klitschko strikes with the right space and time IMO more than I've seen his opponents do.

Anyway, my .02.

Thanks Dave for your kind words,

And I agree with you, core body mechanics like the one's you've described go beyond styles and transcend across disciplines. It is not about HFY, although being a practitioner, that is what I use to describe what I'm talking about.

What it is about is just pure physics. Knowing how to generate power, maintain power, without running away, looping, etc... Knowing what makes a hit a real hit... and not some artificial drill that falls apart in reality.

Being able to withstand crashing energy doesn't necessarily mean using force against force.

Good training to all

[iwingchun]

Hello,

i found a web page with many videos, wing chun sparring here
http://www.wing-chun.ws/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=198-in-pairs-sparring-&Itemid=58

Just take a look!!

[Chop suey]

That's not sparring, its chi sau.

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If it doesnt resemble wing chun, then why? Are they violating the basic principles? Look for elbow position, balance, use of centerline etc etc. All of these things can and do work. And if you adhere to them, guess what? It looks like wing chun.

Oh and back to the post about mike tyson. Anyone average person would be crazy to fight. Now consider we're free to kick to groin, knee, strike to eyes/ throat. No boxing gloves, no ropes confining the ring. In high school I once witnessed a 100 lb girl, drop her bully football-player boyfriend to his knees with a swift kick to the gonads in front of the lockers between classes after he started getting ruff with her. She didn't know any martial arts. Consider that wing chun was designed for someone small and weak to be able to defeat someone much more powerful. It's true. Now in addtion to the deadly array of strikes, add in being able to sense your opponents direction of energy just by simply making contact with his arms, maybe only for a fraction of an instant . A skill you've refined from countless hours of chi sau. I could go on and on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Please don't.

And while you're doing nothing, take a look at my signature. Oh, and yeah...you might want to stay away from that koolaid stand down at the corner for awhile.

[anerlich]

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If you read some posters on one of the other threads, wing chun apparently resembles what Lyoto Machida and Vitor Belfort do in the ring :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Chop Suey. So true in the design of Wing chun...Excellent post I have not seen such a post in a long while...



That's not sparring, its chi sau.

To respond to the original post about wing chun not resembling wing chun during an actual fight or sparring match:

If it doesnt resemble wing chun, then why? Are they violating the basic principles? Look for elbow position, balance, use of centerline etc etc. All of these things can and do work. And if you adhere to them, guess what? It looks like wing chun.

Oh and back to the post about mike tyson. Anyone average person would be crazy to fight. Now consider we're free to kick to groin, knee, strike to eyes/ throat. No boxing gloves, no ropes confining the ring. In high school I once witnessed a 100 lb girl, drop her bully football-player boyfriend to his knees with a swift kick to the gonads in front of the lockers between classes after he started getting ruff with her. She didn't know any martial arts. Consider that wing chun was designed for someone small and weak to be able to defeat someone much more powerful. It's true. Now in addtion to the deadly array of strikes, add in being able to sense your opponents direction of energy just by simply making contact with his arms, maybe only for a fraction of an instant . A skill you've refined from countless hours of chi sau. I could go on and on.

[KenWingJitsu]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

[Yoshiyahu]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

Ha Ha...i think what people are saying is when you fight you also utilize the WC structure, footwork and techniques. Such as Bong Sau, Fook Sau and Tan Sau.

Some people forget their defenses when they fight and just try to strike one another continously with out any rhyme or reason!!!

[m1k3]

If you are worried about hand shapes and elbow position and how to step correctly then you are not fighting, you are training.

In the Marines we were taught there are 2 types of fights, those you win and those you don't. It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win.

[Yoshiyahu]

If you are worried about hand shapes and elbow position and how to step correctly then you are not fighting, you are training.

In the Marines we were taught there are 2 types of fights, those you win and those you don't. It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win.

Yea, But you wanna look good when you beating the crap out someone...You wanna give that signature Wing Chun beating to your foe.

If you beat them up looking good...Thats excellent!

[m1k3]

Yea, But you wanna look good when you beating the crap out someone...You wanna give that signature Wing Chun beating to your foe.

If you beat them up looking good...Thats excellent!

I remember the 1st time Ali fought Ken Norton. He was worried about looking good and ended up getting his jaw broken.

Good fighting should let you look good after the fight is over. :D

[kungfublow]

Fighting is fighting and should look like... fighting.

chi-sao should look like chi-sao.

When fighting, you 'may' 'occassionally' use something that resembles a WC move.
But in the end it had better resemble fighting unless you like looking like a WC man for 2 seconds before you get blitzed.

Punches work well in fights I hear.....

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The wing chun "exception" is due to the fact that only certain aspects of wing chun actually work - when fighting. And it's a small percentage, probably less than half of what is covered in most (basically all?) wing chun systems. Because wing chun systems were devised several hundred years ago in China - where there basically was very-little-to-no exposure to other arts that are prominent today, ie.- western boxing, kickboxing, sambo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and of course MMA.

So what happens for the rest of the wing chun "fight"?

Wing chun starts looking like some form of boxing/kickboxing. In order to take up the slack within all natural, modern, (and especially well trained) approaches to fighting. Slack that exists because of the historical/cultural reasons just given.

Example: Wing Chun has historically done very well against Choy Li Fut.

And when was the last time someone using CLF won a fight in your neighborhood?

Get over it, chunners, and start modernizing your art, even if it means, gasp.. crosstraining. :eek:

;) ;) :cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

This is best post yet...great took the words out of my mouth if i could every verbalize things that concise.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

If you look back at one of my original posts you;ll see I mention they reason for different systems, to distinct advantage of bringing something different to the table.
The problem is it MUST be pressure tested.
People just don't do that.

[goju]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

clap clap clap clap clap

[m1k3]

Maybe I'm way off base but I think this fighting is fighting thing is crap. If fighting is fighting then why train a martial art at all. I can learn to fight just by fighting. If you are learning techniques and structure and timing ect then they should show through when you fight. A MT guy looks like MT when he fights. Karate does too and so does boxing. Why not wing chun? IMHO Fighting is not fighting and your training should show through when you fight if it doesn't then you haven't trained right or your training is going out the window the second a resisting opponent is on you. If you are going to say Fighting is fighting and that's how everyone fights then Martial arts is useless and we should all get together and just fight with no techniques. Our bodies will know what to do I guess.

KFB, there are a couple of problems with this post. Fighting is fighting but not all fighting is good fighting. The reason we train is to fight well.

The problem with something looking like wing chun in a fight is what does my wing chun look like compared to how your wing chun looks.

Boxing is boxing but each boxer fights the way that suits him best. Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis all looked different. The same with BJJ. Each player modifies the style to suit his build, weight, flexibility and strength.

So why should wing chun be different? The tools I pull from wing chun based on my age (old), speed (slow), size (big) and strength (strong) will look different than someone who is young, fast, medium sized and so-so strength wise.

I really get tired of the one size fit all approach to how my wing chun should look just like that of some small slightly built man from Hong Kong.

[YungChun]

When fighting, which can mean many things, only the most trained, most useful (to the individual) and the circumstances will come out.. Some folks will have very little hard core training, some will have very little good traditional training and beyond that you will get all kinds of mixes of innate ability.. The truth is most students of chun are just that, students, beginners... Why? Because of the numbers and access to good training..

The majority of what you see will represent the majority of people, not terribly good for whatever reasons... That said, don't expect to see all kinds of complex moves from anyone in actual application..

A single or multiple punch or palm KO is a very valid expression of the system--so long as general WCK structure is used... Then the questions come up why train X,Y,Z if you don't use them? Because they are or were deemed useful some part of the time... WCK has lots of moves from when folks used to fight other similar styles.. You won't see many other Southern styles around these days mixing it up with similar moves so many of those counters are not going to come out. But that doesn't mean that leaning how to deal with various positions and energy is bad, not all opponents are boxers and not all opponents are bent on killing you... Some very basic moves and tools can be of use when conditions are not of the Ring variety..

It is also true that in a fight where you are effective you simply can't expect to see tons of moves used, especially in an art like WCK...that's in the movies.. WCK in application should be simple and direct and very busy IMO... If it works then don't worry about how pretty it is...

In the end you shouldn't have to ask someone else if your art is effective.. Go out and find out for yourself.. In the old days most serious folks would be sure to do this.. Some would do it every chance they had... There are many ways to do this these days... In the end it is you who must assess and decide if what you do passes the reality test or not..

[Chop suey]

So basically to sum up the two sides of this...argument...

I)One the one hand we have those who say
A)all "fighting" pretty much looks the same, regardles of what martial art has been trained.
B)Wing chun is inadequate to be used by itself. The techniques are either to complicated to be used in a real situation or are no longer applicable in a modern context.
C) while certain theories are valid, wing chun should be combined with other arts to make up for its short comings. (mma)

II) On the other hand we have those who say
A) If it doesnt look like wing chun, it probably isnt. If it doesnt look like wing chun, the person doing it hasnt trained either hard or long enough. I learn wing chun because I want to do wing chun.
B) Wing chun is logical and reasonable. The techniques can actually be used and applied. They are performed almost automatically or at least with very little thought.
C) It doesnt need to be combined with anything else. It can stand on its own.

Group I could be called the Realists and group II could be called the Purists. I for one consider myself amongst the Purists. I do not believe wing chun makes me invincible.

[Tao Of The Fist]

So basically to sum up the two sides of this...argument...

I)One the one hand we have those who say
A)all "fighting" pretty much looks the same, regardles of what martial art has been trained.
B)Wing chun is inadequate to be used by itself. The techniques are either to complicated to be used in a real situation or are no longer applicable in a modern context.
C) while certain theories are valid, wing chun should be combined with other arts to make up for its short comings. (mma)

II) On the other hand we have those who say
A) If it doesnt look like wing chun, it probably isnt. If it doesnt look like wing chun, the person doing it hasnt trained either hard or long enough. I learn wing chun because I want to do wing chun.
B) Wing chun is logical and reasonable. The techniques can actually be used and applied. They are performed almost automatically or at least with very little thought.
C) It doesnt need to be combined with anything else. It can stand on its own.

Group I could be called the Realists and group II could be called the Purists. I for one consider myself amongst the Purists. I do not believe wing chun makes me invincible.

I would like to think that I am among group III, which I would call the Progressive Traditionalists. Combat is always going to change, as it has since forever; like the christian saying 'the Devil is always diligent so must we be as well.' However, the techniques in Wing Chun wouldn't still be around if they didn't work. So you take from it what works for you. Adhere to the nature, but change the form accordingly.

[YungChun]

A or B misses the point...

It's just a fighting system... Too many folks turn their chosen style into a religion where faith drives each post (here) and often replaces hard work and testing..

Or the opposition, where hatred and often misunderstanding of the art taints every post (here) and drives their analysis of the system ...

That's half the problem..

It's just a fighting style.. If you like it great and if not great...

Like almost any style WCK specializes in a range. Don't expect it be the--be all, end all--just as no other single style is the be all end all of all ranges of combat..

It's a big world out there and there are plenty of good styles and systems out there... If you want to be a complete fighter/warrior...you need experience in all ranges of combat..

And that goes for weapons and tactical training as well.. It's a big world.. Too much to learn in one lifetime for most.. But cross training is great, more info is great--care not from where something comes if you can use it..

It's just a style folks... And it's finally you and your group who will make it good or not, 'real WCK' or not, theoretical or not, effective or not and tested or not...

[Chop suey]

Very well put. When you say different ranges, are you meaning like close range or long range? I've heard alot of people talk about this. But, I've only been able to understand within-range or out-of-range so far.

[chusauli]

I think a lot of confusion are the terms "system", "style", "curriculum", and "Training methodology".

The majority of us here train in Yip Man system, other in YKS system, or other WCK system.

Style is something personal and unique in your expression that differentiates it from Joe's style or someone else's style.

Curriculum is the progression learned: SNT, Chum Kiu, Pak Sao, Lop Sao, Dan Chi Sao, etc.

Training methodology varies from teacher to teacher - for example, I emphasize body alignment linkage bone structure, others like to shift...

I think the WCK world would benefit greatly understanding all 4 of these terms. Hence, in developing your personal style after studying the Yip Man system and curriculum, emphasizing free fighting/MMA training methodology, and tailoring your curriculum is perfectly okay. There is no conflict here. Its what all martial artists are supposed to do.

[YungChun]

When you say different ranges, are you meaning like close range or long range? I've heard alot of people talk about this. But, I've only been able to understand within-range or out-of-range so far.

Yes, sort of..

You should check out Jeet Kune Do's ranges of combat....and get a copy of The Tao of Jeet Kune Do....a great book of one man's perspective on H2H..

They will discuss ranges of hand to hand and keep looking as ranges of combat go beyond H2H..