OT: Widow and child of Marine killed in Iraq to be deported

[David43515]

I hope I got your attention.
http://www.military.com/news/article/law-says-marine-widow-cant-stay-in-us.html?ESRC=topstories.RSS
They were married by proxy after he shipped out overseas so his pregnant fiance could get medical benefits for the baby. The Marine Corps recognizes teh marriage as legit and gives them Survivors`s benefits, but the INS staute on proxy marrriages says that if they couldn`t consumate the marriage before he was KIA, the marriage doesn`t count.

Thier Representative, John Duncan TN, has written a private bill to let them stay in the US but it will die in committee unless it gets co-sposored in the Senate. So PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEAASE write, call, or email your Senator and Representative. The bill is H.R.3182 'For the relief of Hotaru Nakama Ferschke'.

If wwe can give amnesty to people who sneak across the boarder in the dead of night, how can we kick a widow and child out of the country the father died serving?

[Mr Punch]

This happens a lot. Good luck with this. Make more noise Americans!

[uki]

Make more noise Americans!the more noise people make, the louder the government whip cracks...

[David Jamieson]

so,the INS statute is what has to be changed through legislation.

there's no point in getting emotional and angry over the individual case.

when and if anyone does write, they have to address that statute as being the problem.

they also have to recognize why that statute was ratified into law in the first place. was there a lot of abuse of the system with it, because young men do have a tendency to get girls pregnant and then dealing with that in a reactionary way.

Wearing your emotions on your sleeve is powerfully ineffective when dealing with getting laws changed. You can cry all day and it won't change anything, but if you think, if you make a valid argument taht is difficult to rebut, then you are onto something.

nobody cares about the individuals circumstances. there has to be a reason why this statutes exists to begin with. Start there.

[Mr Punch]

so,the INS statute is what has to be changed through legislation.

there's no point in getting emotional and angry over the individual case.

when and if anyone does write, they have to address that statute as being the problem.

they also have to recognize why that statute was ratified into law in the first place. was there a lot of abuse of the system with it, because young men do have a tendency to get girls pregnant and then dealing with that in a reactionary way.

Wearing your emotions on your sleeve is powerfully ineffective when dealing with getting laws changed. You can cry all day and it won't change anything, but if you think, if you make a valid argument taht is difficult to rebut, then you are onto something.

nobody cares about the individuals circumstances. there has to be a reason why this statutes exists to begin with. Start there.

Exactly (except I didn't see anyone crying). Make some noise, Americans.

[BoulderDawg]

The article is evasive. Whenever I see over dramatization that is the first clue that we are not hearing the entire story. It does not tell us where the child was born. I think there is a reason for that. Also it does not tell us the age of the woman in question. I'm going to assume she's between 18-30. I sincerely doubt she is "alone" in Japan as was stated in the article.

In any case why should military receive more than anyone else? I have no problem with foreigners being in the United States. However the laws should be applied equally.

What I also find interesting is that the person writing the post is using this particular story as a weapon against immigration. There is no tie in here.

[Mr Punch]

The article is evasive. Whenever I see over dramatization that is the first clue that we are not hearing the entire story. It does not tell us where the child was born. I think there is a reason for that. Also it does not tell us the age of the woman in question. I'm going to assume she's between 18-30.Over dramatization? There is the usual scene setting you see in any human interest article of this length. What does her age matter?


I sincerely doubt she is "alone" in Japan as was stated in the article....Because? (Not that it's really relevant to the case, I suppose it is relevant to the article)



If a servicemember who is a U.S. citizen dies in the line of duty, foreign-born members of his or her family can now seek citizenship, even if they are not legal residents. This is also possible in cases in which the servicemember is made a citizen posthumously.

The naturalization process is still cumbersome. Fingerprints and photographs must be taken, and eligibility and background investigations completed. Applicants are interviewed and given a civics test.

However, military petitioners are moved to the front of the citizenship line. A process that takes a year for average aliens is reduced for non-citizen servicemembers, with the goal of having citizenship applications processed within 90 days, says Christopher Bentley, spokesman for the immigration service.

The naturalization process is "much easier and it's free," says Agnieszka Grzelczyk, 24, a Navy petty officer 3rd class who was born in Poland and naturalized at the Los Angeles Convention Center last Thursday with more than 8,400 people. She filed for citizenship in February, responding to the expedited immigration changes. (From here (http://www.ptsdsupport.net/becoming_american.html).)

Given the above information, all they are doing is doubting the word of a man who died for his country and his reasons for marrying. I don't think he planned to get killed, and the fact that the marriage was consummated (albeit in the wrong order!) should have bearing on the case. Marriage by proxy is accepted by US law pertaining to the military: the consummation is a ridiculous point, given that the job had been done and he never got the chance to do it again. It's a badly written law, that should be rewritten for more leeway to soldiers who meet foreign residents in this kind of way more than others.

[BoulderDawg]

I think whether or not she's alone and why is very relevant. I think there is a lot the public is not being told. If you're under thirty with no family then something happened. In a few cases it will be because of death but most ot the time it's because bridges have been burned

Anyway, why would a young girl. who can't even speak the language. with a baby want to move to the US? I'm trying to imagine an American girl moving to a foreign country with a baby. Could money be involved? What do you think?

Also, let's say 2 years from now she decides she wants to go home to Japan. Any bets on how the Grandparents will feel about her then?

[Mr Punch]

Oh, OK, you're talking out your arse. Just checking.

[BoulderDawg]

Oh, OK, you're talking out your arse. Just checking.


Not at all. I'm just asking the questions that should be asked.

[Pork Chop]

Not at all. I'm just asking the questions that should be asked.

Kid was born in Okinawa - if he was born in the US they wouldn't have made mention of both of them being here on a temporary visa.
The fact of the matter is that both of them would have a very hard time in Japan.

They got married via proxy for the health insurance - not that they had no intention of getting married, but obviously there's an issue there that they weren't getting enough help from the universal health care in japan.
There's a lot of tension in Okinawa between certain sections of the population and the military.
There's a very good chance the girl got kicked out of her family.
Okinawa's the poorest of all the prefectures in Japan, with the highest high school dropout rate.
Her prospects in Japan are pretty daunting, single mothers don't have it easy, especially one with a half kid.
The kid would really have a tough time in Japanese education system, being half and having no dad.

What's wrong with a mom wanting to raise a kid in the home of his dead dad's family?
...a home in a country that the dad loved enough to give his life in service for
...a dad the kid will never get to meet.... kid deserves to know what he can of his dad & the American half of his heritage...

2 years later if she wants to go back to japan, well at least her inlaws got to know their grandson for a bit and hopefully formed a bond that the kid can maintain whether he's in the country or not.

pops gave his life for this country, his wishes should be honored and it's very clear that he wanted to be married & have a part in his kid's life

i can't believe we're even discussing this
you seem to be severely lacking in what we call "the people skills"...
i can't tell if you're heartless or socially retarded...

[BoulderDawg]

I think you are probably mentally incapable of understanding my argument.

"pops gave his life for this country"

To start with I take issue with that statement. He was stupid enough to get tangled up in Bush's war. He didn't give his life for his country. In any way, what does that have to do with anything?

Personally I say let her stay. Of course give the girl from Mexico the same consideration when she's here in the states pregant and alone.

Do not come at me with "Military personnel do not have to follow the same laws that we do.

[Drake]

There are regulations and rules for stuff like this, and it is the responsibility of the soldier to understand and comply with them. You can't make an exception like this, because it'll open the flood gates for massive fraud. The emotional argument is a compelling one, but it also requires us to disregard solid facts in favor of us feeling sad on the inside.

The soldier planned very VERY poorly, and due to his irresponsibility, his wife will be paying for it.

[1bad65]

i can't tell if you're heartless or socially retarded...

Go with retarded. And he is a racist too.

Now if the wife and kid were pretending to be American Indians, he would recommend them for tenured professor positions in the US.

[Drake]

Go with retarded. And he is a racist too.

Now if the wife and kid were pretending to be American Indians, he would recommend them for tenured professor positions in the US.

Speaking of which...that ******* Churchill lost his case with the university.
He's not getting anything.

[1bad65]

Speaking of which...that ******* Churchill lost his case with the university.
He's not getting anything.

Oh, it's hilarious. And he is gonna appeal it too. He is currently begging for money to pay his legal bills.

You know he is all upset now. His current wife better keep her hands up and move her head!

[Drake]

I bet he's not asking the Native Americans. :)

[BoulderDawg]

Go with retarded. And he is a racist too.

Now if the wife and kid were pretending to be American Indians, he would recommend them for tenured professor positions in the US.

My, I must have really rattled your cage!:D Not surprising. When you run out of valid arguments the name calling and the attacks begin.

By the way I thought this thread was about a Japanese girl wanting to remain in the country. Isn't there rules about hijacking a thread? If you want to talk about something else then start your own thread.

[1bad65]

I bet he's not asking the Native Americans. :)

LMAO! They already figured him out. It's the stupid, non-Native American liberals who are still fooled by the admitted liar.

[Pork Chop]

I think you are probably mentally incapable of understanding my argument.

"pops gave his life for this country"

To start with I take issue with that statement. He was stupid enough to get tangled up in Bush's war. He didn't give his life for his country. In any way, what does that have to do with anything?

Personally I say let her stay. Of course give the girl from Mexico the same consideration when she's here in the states pregant and alone.

Do not come at me with "Military personnel do not have to follow the same laws that we do.

you take issue with a guy joining the military to advance his opportunities for the future?
do you know what percentage of the population has done that and gone on to become productive members of society?
or you only think people should do that when it's safe & happy with no wars, at least no wars you disagree with....
you don't have to love your president/government to love your country.
you obviously don't love either, and i'm glad there are folks out there different enough from you that are willing to put their lives on the line for something to believe in.
"he didn't give his life for his country" - i dare you to go to any VFW, with your soap box and make that claim, good luck getting out of there alive.

ummm plenty of mexican citizens come here every year to give birth solely for the purpose of making their children US citizens. this country's immigration policy is a joke. Anybody who sneaks across the border gets welfare, schooling, and healthcare; but skilled folks (many even college graduates) who go through the system properly but can't find a company to pony up tens of thousands of dollars for work visas are basically kicked out of the country.

i don't see what "dangerous precedent" this starts. If a US citizen has a kid while serving military service, that kid should be a citizen no if, ands, or buts. If he marries someone but is forced away from home due to the requirements of the job, that should be taken into account when dealing with his widow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, let me see if I got this straight:
The wife and child of an American soldier that died serving his country are being deported?
And how does the NIS justify this? when there are tons of illegals here that are NOT being deported?

[Drake]

So, let me see if I got this straight:
The wife and child of an American soldier that died serving his country are being deported?
And how does the NIS justify this? when there are tons of illegals here that are NOT being deported?

The marriage wasn't legal is what I got out of it.

[1bad65]

"he didn't give his life for his country" - i dare you to go to any VFW, with your soap box and make that claim, good luck getting out of there alive.

He has already punked out before when he was challenged to say to a serviceman's face what he was typing on the Net.

Again; he insults brave men and women who serve their country and sometimes die for it, but he defends a wife-beating con man.

[Pork Chop]

The marriage wasn't legal is what I got out of it.

It was legal according to the military, not the INS (which i think is called USCIS now - US Citizenship and Immigration Services).

Typically, US military members are not tried in civilian courts and have a lot of special exemptions & caveats when dealing with laws - for example any other US citizen that moves to a new address must get a driver's license for their new location, with military this isn't necessarily the case (i believe a state by state basis).

[Drake]

It was legal according to the military, not the INS (which i think is called USCIS now - US Citizenship and Immigration Services).

Typically, US military members are not tried in civilian courts and have a lot of special exemptions & caveats when dealing with laws - for example any other US citizen that moves to a new address must get a driver's license for their new location, with military this isn't necessarily the case (i believe a state by state basis).

I'm still using my driver's license which isn't from this state and has been expired for years. However, I am exempt.

We aren't exempted for everything, and we are tried by civilian courts for crimes committed off post.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was legal according to the military, not the INS (which i think is called USCIS now - US Citizenship and Immigration Services).

Typically, US military members are not tried in civilian courts and have a lot of special exemptions & caveats when dealing with laws - for example any other US citizen that moves to a new address must get a driver's license for their new location, with military this isn't necessarily the case (i believe a state by state basis).

I am confused...How can a marriage be legal according to the military and NOT according to imigration?
Did they have a marriage licence? where they married on a military base?

[Drake]

Again, the military has no control over INS. They actually raided a guy's house, ON POST, and took his family, under the premises that he had them there illegally. They were supported by the German Polizei, and our command fought hard to get his family back. In the end, we pulled some strings to let him go do what he needed to do. While we couldn't stop or circumvent INS, we were able to give him the flexibility to comply with their rules.

Unfortunately, all we can do when dealing with these agencies is write some strongly worded memos to them. The military does care about the family, but sometimes our hands are tied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, the military has no control over INS. They actually raided a guy's house, ON POST, and took his family, under the premises that he had them there illegally. They were supported by the German Polizei, and our command fought hard to get his family back. In the end, we pulled some strings to let him go do what he needed to do. While we couldn't stop or circumvent INS, we were able to give him the flexibility to comply with their rules.

Unfortunately, all we can do when dealing with these agencies is write some strongly worded memos to them. The military does care about the family, but sometimes our hands are tied.

Sad state of affairs...
Too bad you can't draft those INS *******s !

[Drake]

He had to be pulled out of Iraq early over those shenanigans, too.

[BoulderDawg]

He had to be pulled out of Iraq early over those shenanigans, too.

Dam! What a shame.......I bet he was heart broken!:D

In any case "Pulling strings" is a way of life for the military. They always get what they want. Also you can rest assured had the soldier in question here (or his family) had enough pull there would have been no problem. In any case my guess is the family has kicked up so much fuss that they will get what they want anyway.

[Drake]

You are such a moron. Actually, yes, he was VERY upset about leaving early, and was trying to get back down there. You wouldn't understand any of this, and I suspect you never will.

And the soldier in question was a junior enlisted vehicle mechanic (A SPC, for any of you who know the rank structure). He had ZERO pull.

Again, you comment about things you have zero knowledge of, and it truly shows.

[BoulderDawg]

You are such a moron. Actually, yes, he was VERY upset about leaving early, and was trying to get back down there. You wouldn't understand any of this, and I suspect you never will.

And the soldier in question was a junior enlisted vehicle mechanic (A SPC, for any of you who know the rank structure). He had ZERO pull.

Again, you comment about things you have zero knowledge of, and it truly shows.


I understand totally. You people simply think you're better than the rest of us and deserve special treatment. Then when called on it it's: "You wouldn't understand" :D

Hey, why don't you just go back to Iraq and join your buddies over there who believe they have the right to take any girl they please and do with her what they like after a long day of drinking and driving around on a hummer.

Hmmmm.....I also wonder about the Afghan economy should the American Military leave Afghanistan! The drug cartels would be loosing their bigger customers!:eek:

[Pork Chop]

I think what you're missing is that these people have requirements of their job that prevent them from doing things the "normal way". Yeah, they chose the lifestyle, but some of it you can't account for when you're 18 and trying to make the best of your limited prospects.

Young kid gets stationed overseas. Not a lot of American women around, certainly not a lot of desirable American women they actually CAN date, so they go out with a local - as young couples do, they fall in love and start a family. Normal human stuff, but INS treats them like they're running a scam.

You're living in fantasy land if you expect young soldiers to live a monastic life when stationed overseas for years at a time.

That's not to say I agree with the bad things soldiers do. I understand war and rape have gone together like pb&j since the beginning of time and that the US military is probably better than most large militaries over the last 100 years, but I think there's a special place in hell for the 3 service men that raped that 12 year old girl in Okinawa in 95 (1 down, 2 to go).

[Drake]

Exactly, Pork Chop. You want to try and judge a million soldier army based on the actions of a mere handful? That accounts for much less than 1% of the troops that have deployed down there. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people are rotated down there all the time, and because a small handful of people screw up (btw, the guy who did it should have been kicked out anyway), you think you can feasibly judge the rest?

How about this. How about we look at the percentage of rape and murder in the US compared to the military? Just last week alone civilians raped and murdered more than any one group I know of.

Are we different? You bet. Because we are the ones who are awake while you sleep, and we're the ones who allow you to be disrespectful, hateful, and ignorant without fear of anyone dragging you off in the middle of the night. And because you cannot respect or even acknowledge that, I don't even hate you. I pity you, because you have zero awareness of the world around you. You might have, if our federal agents hadn't stopped Denver from being blown to hell. Maybe you need that.

Why don't you try something except simply keeping yourself alive? We have teachers, doctors, soldiers, and even martial artists who all contribute to society. They do what they can to help make life easier for others, even those who are too ignorant to grasp how good they have it.

You aren't getting anything out of your inflammatory comments except pity and a certain degree of sorrow.

[BoulderDawg]

No different than the comments from people wrapped up in the mania of religion or worship of anything.

You dare to voice concerns about their group?

Well of course you don't understand. They are the chosen few and very important(in this case without them you would be dead:D) And, moving on, unless you share the same beliefs you are worthless to society. Finally because you are part of a group that simply won't see the light you are someone to be pitied!

This is text book stuff. Anybody who is so wrapped up in any activity (Cult worship, politics, military, religion...anything) will give you a version of the above almost chapter and verse.

It ashame that the US deploys such brain washing and cult tactics with our military but considering the recent commander and chief I'm not surprised.

[Pork Chop]

so now being in the military and/or being supportive of the military means we're in a brainwashed cult?

wow.... just wow....


not in the military myself
but my dad was
went to schools on base and off
would say i'm far from brainwashed, but hey, we're all a product of our upbringing

my wife's okinawan and my kid's half, not too dissimilar from the subject of the article
one of my best friends locally is married to an Okinawan with a kid as well
he's currently on his 3rd tour in Iraq, though he'd rather not be there
military's his method for paying for school and securing a better life
gets back in less than 2 weeks
we've been shooting the sh!t a lot via email to pass the time

think about all the moments of his kid's life he's sacrificing for the job he believes in, (though the war maybe not so much)
think about what'd happen if his timing had been different,
if the situation from the article was happening to him;
and it very well might have been if he'd been shipped out right before i met him,
so that's what's going through my mind when i read some of the statements in this thread

keep talking if you want
make a snide reply if it makes you feel better
you've proven without a shadow of a doubt that nothing you post has any sort of merit
you have absolutely no logical base from which to speak
you point faults in others, but do not hold yourself up to any sort of standard
you're the crazy hippie in the woods,
brain destroyed by recreational drugs and poor logic,
decrying conspiracies and "evil" institutions
completely out of touch with reality

the only conclusion i can come to is that i hope you never have children
your stupidity needs to be removed from the gene pool
definitely not going to waste my time reading any more of your posts
even the ignore button seems to be too much effort

[BoulderDawg]

you're the crazy hippie in the woods,
brain destroyed by recreational drugs and poor logic,
decrying conspiracies and "evil" institutions
completely out of touch with reality

the only conclusion i can come to is that i hope you never have children
your stupidity needs to be removed from the gene pool
definitely not going to waste my time reading any more of your posts
even the ignore button seems to be too much effort


Okay...since you want to go in that direction

Not to long ago I traded a few PMs with a guy who said he had trained with you. The kiondest thing he said was that it was funny watching your fat gut bounce up and down while you were to train....it went down hill from there. The guy said you were a joke. You could not do any conditioning without getting winded in about 30 seconds. Also that you were, bar none, the slowest guy in the entire gym.:D Nobody wanted to train with you. He said you were the first to complain about someone hitting too hard or being rough.......

All of this is easy to believe. You'ra a total loser who will forever be talking about how you are going to get in shape ..."Tomorrow"!

[Drake]

Does the stupidity ever end? What self-centered, pitiful creature makes fun of someone for going to the gym? What kind of wretch pokes fun at someone trying to improve themself?

Trade PMs? With whom? This is just stupid, 3rd grade ad hominem attacks because you know he's right. You are making, what the rest of refer to anyway, as unsubstantiated accusations. Like everything else, you make a declaration without a shred of evidence, hoping to get a rise out a guy who is struggling between work, keeping in shape, and raising a child. Again... pity.

[BoulderDawg]

Does the stupidity ever end? What self-centered, pitiful creature makes fun of someone for going to the gym? What kind of wretch pokes fun at someone trying to improve themself?

Trade PMs? With whom? This is just stupid, 3rd grade ad hominem attacks because you know he's right. You are making, what the rest of refer to anyway, as unsubstantiated accusations. Like everything else, you make a declaration without a shred of evidence, hoping to get a rise out a guy who is struggling between work, keeping in shape, and raising a child. Again... pity.

Ah yes! The party line for a zealot!:D As I said, text book stuff.

Some things are missing. Where's the "You would be dead if not for me" part?

Ddin't know the fatboy was out of a job.......what a loser!:D

[mawali]

We are imperfect beings!
That being said, there is no greater sacrifice than an individual giving his life for the freedom of the country. The fellow was attempting to do the right things to care for his wife and child so I personally cannot fault him.

Compassionate care should be worth more with one who does the more honourable tasks.

semper fidelis (always faithfull)

[1bad65]

Exactly, Pork Chop. You want to try and judge a million soldier army based on the actions of a mere handful? That accounts for much less than 1% of the troops that have deployed down there. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of people are rotated down there all the time, and because a small handful of people screw up (btw, the guy who did it should have been kicked out anyway), you think you can feasibly judge the rest?

It's alot like saying all university professors must be wife beating plagiarists pretending to be Indians just because one guy named Ward Churchill did that stuff. :D

[Drake]

It's alot like saying all university professors must be wife beating plagiarists pretending to be Indians just because one guy named Ward Churchill did that stuff. :D

Yet he follows this guy religiously... and he calls ME brainwashed. I don't know if that's ironic, or just sad.

[Pork Chop]

Yet he follows this guy religiously... and he calls ME brainwashed. I don't know if that's ironic, or just sad.

i opted for just sad
like i said in the end of my post i'm not even going to go to the effort of hitting the "ignore" button
just not going to read the drivel anymore

[BoulderDawg]

i opted for just sad
like i said in the end of my post i'm not even going to go to the effort of hitting the "ignore" button
just not going to read the drivel anymore

You can suggest that all my kids(or future kids) are (or will be) stupid, retarded or whatever. God know why you would make such a suggestion but you did. I expect that from people such as yourself.

In any case, at least I have a job and support my kids. According to your buddy here you're not even man enough to go out and get a job to support your own kid. Of course anyone that would make a personal attack like you would probably have trouble in real life.

[Drake]

Can always count on BD to take the high road. :rolleyes:

Of course he's not making up a fictional "buddy" because he hasn't a leg to stand on :rolleyes:

Hey BD... if you can't reveal this "buddy" name due to the guy being a complete coward and backstabbing slimebag, then what gym did this occur in, and during what time? :rolleyes:

[Pork Chop]

now do i go back and read that to get some context to your post Drake? or should i even bother?
decisions, decisions :rolleyes:
probably the typical BD tactic of "when someone ignores you, make sh!t up"
my workday is slow, but not that slow...

[Drake]

now do i go back and read that to get some context to your post Drake? or should i even bother?
decisions, decisions :rolleyes:
probably the typical BD tactic of "when someone ignores you, make sh!t up"
my workday is slow, but not that slow...

You didn't miss anything. At all.