What are Some Wing Chun Attacks that Use Angles if Any?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Thanks in advance.

[Vajramusti]

All successful wing chun attacks use lines, circles and angles.
An opening may be there only for an instant- so distancing, structure, appropriate power and speed and above all timing are crucial. Various chi sao drills helps you devlop those for
gor sao and applications.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

All successful wing chun attacks use lines, circles and angles.
An opening may be there only for an instant- so distancing, structure, appropriate power and speed and above all timing are crucial. Various chi sao drills helps you devlop those for
gor sao and applications.

joy chaudhuri

I was hoping for something more explicit, but I was probably too vague. let me be more specific. I have seen a number of people suggest that, "you can't run straight in on someone!" So, what specific methods can I apply to avoid doing this?

I am a non-classical practitioner so I address this using nan chuan, kickboxing, or some other random tidbits. Specifically, how do the classical folks avoid, "Just running straight in," because I have never seen a demonstration of anything but?

To be very specific, I am talking about attacking strictly and not counter attacks.

[Sihing73]

I was hoping for something more explicit, but I was probably too vague. let me be more specific. I have seen a number of people suggest that, "you can't run straight in on someone!" So, what specific methods can I apply to avoid doing this?

I am a non-classical practitioner so I address this using nan chuan, kickboxing, or some other random tidbits. Specifically, how do the classical folks avoid, "Just running straight in," because I have never seen a demonstration of anything but?

To be very specific, I am talking about attacking strictly and not counter attacks.

Hello,

Have you event seen the dummy? Plenty of examples of angling there, IMHO. Kind of hard to rush straight in on an inanimate object with three arms and a leg sticking out :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hello,

Have you event seen the dummy? Plenty of examples of angling there, IMHO. Kind of hard to rush straight in on an inanimate object with three arms and a leg sticking out :D

Thanks, I think that what you said just clarified the previous post. FYI,I do not consider anything that I have seen any classical Wing Chuner do with the dummy an angling attack. Not that this is bad. It is just different. However, it is useful to know that you guys do.

Thanks,
:D:D:D

[Sihing73]

Hello,

So if I am understanding you correctly, stepping off on say a 45' angle then stepping into the opponent is not an example of angling??? This movement is right out of the first part of the dummy, not to mention the kick and step through to attack from the other side, etc.

What would you consider to be an example of angling?

In my lineage we not only learn to step to the outside but to continue on to end up behind the opponent, of course in order to do this we need to step off the line and then regain it. Would that be an example of angling?

WC is full of triangle based footwork which addresses the use of angles both to step off and on the line. For myself I have also tried to integrate FMA footwork into my stepping in order to practice attacks and defenses from different angles.

I guess I am asking you to explain your POV as to what would constitute angling in order to better understand where you are coming from.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hello,

So if I am understanding you correctly, stepping off on say a 45' angle then stepping into the opponent is not an example of angling??? This movement is right out of the first part of the dummy, not to mention the kick and step through to attack from the other side, etc.

What would you consider to be an example of angling?

.

I would consider that angling. I see it defensively all the time in Wing Chun. I have never seen classical guys apply angling offensively which is what the point of emphasis here is.

You seem to be suggesting that you do some angular attacking, but are you suggesting that you pulled from other disciplines? Am I correct, or do I misunderstand?

If you study FMA then you Know exactly what I am getting at. FMA uses angular attacking a lot and so do Asian style Kickboxers such as Muay Thai, San Da, San Shu, and the like. Angular attack also exist in northern styles as well. I have just not seen any Wing Chunners use them who didn't get them from somewhere else.

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;959832]I would consider that angling. I see it defensively all the time in Wing Chun. I have never seen classical guys apply angling offensively which is what the point of emphasis here is.QUOTE]

Hello,

Not to belabor the point but the beginning of the Dummy has this very footwork. While done with a cover, in this case a Taun, it is certainly a valid method of attack. It is one of the methods of practicing closing with an opponent. To be honest, any practice for closing using the dummy would require an angled attack. Not to mention that any technique in conjunction with stance turning would also be an example of angling. One could argue that the methods are like counter-punching so you could say it is defensive and not a pure attack. Still consider WC often uses two arms together one to support the other. I think it would be rare to find a WC person who only defends not attacks while defending.

I train Pekiti Tirsia as well as dabble in Kuntao and Silat. However, what I have found is that much of the footwork trained in FMA is to be found within WC, conceptually at least. If you are exposed to the Knives in WC you will have no doubt that angling attacks exist within WC.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I train Pekiti Tirsia as well as dabble in Kuntao and Silat. However, what I have found is that much of the footwork trained in FMA is to be found within WC, conceptually at least. If you are exposed to the Knives in WC you will have no doubt that angling attacks exist within WC.

I agree, but would you agree that the attacking angles is something that isn't expressed well in WC? It was always there in my WC training, but I never recognized the attacking aspect until it came up in other contexts.

Edit: I understand that the angle step is a part of Wing Chun, but I don't recall ever seeing a classical fighter execute an angle step as the aggressor.

[Lee Chiang Po]

WC is a different system from all the rest. You make a frontal attack at your own risk. Most other systems do not address the safety factor. They simply move in and start punching and kicking. When you attack someone, you are attacking their fortified position, and he has the advantage because he already occupies his own space, and you are trying to move into it. A good WC man will try to draw you out of your defensive position with a faint attack or whatever that will make you respond. Once you respond you will have to recover, and the WC man will follow you back in and inflict his punishment.
If you simply attempt to angle in on someone they will simply turn to face you. This is why boxers tend to circle one another. You can only safely angle in on someone that is already in motion in some way. He has to stop and redirect his movements, but by then you are in position and firing on him. So, WC does not use angling attacks as such, but it does employ angling counter attacks.
Most of the other systems you mentioned really depend on size and strength mostly, and the biggest and strongest usually wins, unless of course while making a frontal attack he catches a lucky punch in the face.

[TenTigers]

"I agree, but would you agree that the attacking angles is something that isn't expressed well in WC? It was always there in my WC training, but I never recognized the attacking aspect until it came up in other contexts."

The forms,wooden man, weapons, don't teach you how to utilize the techniques found within the system. That is the job of the Sifu. Each Sifu has his own method.

[HumbleWCGuy]

"I agree, but would you agree that the attacking angles is something that isn't expressed well in WC? It was always there in my WC training, but I never recognized the attacking aspect until it came up in other contexts."

The forms,wooden man, weapons, don't teach you how to utilize the techniques found within the system. That is the job of the Sifu. Each Sifu has his own method.

I think that all martial arts have identifiable trends. Lack of angular attacks might be one of them for wing chun. My sifu did not feel that they were so he taught them in kickboxing class.

[Vajramusti]

I think that all martial arts have identifiable trends. Lack of angular attacks might be one of them for wing chun. My sifu did not feel that they were so he taught them in kickboxing class.
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A reply:

One of the frequent problems in communication is dealing with over generalizations- wc is this or that often based on utube and videos.

A decent wing chun person will develop and use angular attacks. How and when will depend
on the relationship between the two or more persons involved. Some angles will be unique to each situation.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Angular attacks are generally done with the person straight ahead of you. When they turn to strike, you simply add on to the turn and voila! You're there! No:) need to use triangle steps, etc. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that all martial arts have identifiable trends. Lack of angular attacks might be one of them for wing chun. My sifu did not feel that they were so he taught them in kickboxing class.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A reply:

One of the frequent problems in communication is dealing with over generalizations- wc is this or that often based on utube and videos.

A decent wing chun person will develop and use angular attacks. How and when will depend
on the relationship between the two or more persons involved. Some angles will be unique to each situation.

joy chaudhuri
Well it is good that Sifu did not have the benefit of the internet so that his judgment wasn't clouded. Also, I have seen or heard nothing that has changed my mind about the lack of angular attacks in wing chun over the years. This thread under scores this fact.

[Vajramusti]

Well it is good that Sifu did not have the benefit of the internet so that his judgment wasn't clouded. Also, I have seen or heard nothing that has changed my mind about the lack of angular attacks in wing chun over the years. This thread under scores this fact.
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Not unusual per above to reinforce one's own perspective via net chit chat.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

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Not unusual per above to reinforce one's own perspective via net chit chat.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for preaching the ills of over generalization before making a gross over-generalization. Pot, meet kettle. LOL.

[TenTigers]

I must admit, I am very impressed by the politeness and restraint by members of this forum. I really don't see this on any of the other forums, and it is refreshing.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The trolls have just not arrived yet.
I once felt that attack was something that would work, but I have been hit full in the face for my efforts. I have just walked up and started punching, but if he sees you coming and squares off at you, the rules of the game suddenly change. Even a windmiller will get some of your face if you just try to angle in on him. You have to be smart and make him make a move that you can use. It is hard to move into someone's personal space if he is ****ed and ready to fire on you. Mr. Chu described it right. When he strikes, whether you have made him do so or if he is doing it to attack you, he still opens himself to counter attack. This gives you the greater chance of prevailing over a strong opponent. I would never put myself in the line of fire, even against a smaller and seemingly weaker opponent. A lucky shot can be your undoing.

[k gledhill]

the 2 primary attacking tools are jut & pak

we adopt side stances without a lead leg..this allows quick shifts to face te incoming line of force...aka right arm , left arm..r leg, l leg....iow what side to attack.

we adopt subtle slips and angle to the movement by the opponent ...with the opponent. In a flowing exchange ...they try to face us squarely with a line of force they want to deliver , we attack it, using a simple tactical approach coupled with attacking techniques.

Angled strikes create potential intersections of force lines..we dont have to chase arms if they will find us ;) if they dont find us we have hit them , doesnt get simpler than that.

hit them while angling from their centers , turn them so their centers cant face us, attack them from flanks, trapping their ability to re-face us...


Seung ma - toi ma drills in the chi-sao teach the simple angling response to being attacked or attacking....one steps in and attacks , the other counterstrikes the entry while also angling to the correct positions , relative to the given arm coming in.

We can allow movement from the opponents too, to simply take advantage of gross force delivery or attempts to chase our arms :cool:...when you learn this it can be funny to make obvious what guy's are actually shown to be attacking...your arms :D or you...if they attack your arms you can easily manipulate them and take advantage of overturning, stance leaning while arms look for purchase to place force on them...you simply quickly remove the platform for their force to rest on.....same with acutely angled arms from training , SLT etc... by adopting tightly angled arms AND angling stances the force of the incoming strikes 'slides' off your arms as they stay on a forward striking/deflecting path....they just move and we hit them ...very simple.

Let the opponent show you what to do, dont think, just flow with them.

[k gledhill]

When angling with the side stances, do you step to the attacker's flank or just stay in place and pivot. If you can shed some light on the application of the side stance it would be great.

Whats your position in relation to the attackers when applying the side stance, is your centerline (sternum) still facing his spine or turned 45 degrees to the side.

As chum kil....when doing the sideling bong sao's . If you face a mirror you are attacking you in the mirror ...your stance should be only slightly turned , like your resting a rifle butt in the shoulder and holding the rifle with the lead and rear hands ...too much turn and the rifle butt has no support ....

no fixed response...you are free to react or a'c'ttack . you cane be wherever you and the other guy are, no fixed or 'thinking' to e somewhere. The system allows us to seamlessly fight either sides with the same arms on the line striking ,facing etc...
We only turn to 'face' the target, a lot of vt is shown to turn the stance to redirect force by changing your whole body axis line etc...leaning back, overturning elbow positions etc...
By adopting tactical movement we can shift with the action, not stand in the center chasing gates with one arm blocking as the other hits...giving us some simple mobility to shift from shoots rather than get feinted chasing a gate while pivoting directly in front of a guy who's going low for a takedown....

By doing drills in chi-sao 'seung ma toi ma ' we add the dimension of entry and angling to the entrys lead side ...ie a grab with the leading left to follow with the big right...a jabbing tentative left arm...or a big swing / hook allows us to parry from the perimeter line shifting either with inside pak or outside or whatever to try to turn or attack the guy as he does so...we may not have entry immediately so can parry from abase line shifting and pivoting subtly using techniques to gain the best advantage ...

Like the dummy we attack across the face left to right and vice versa as if we are attacking in a converging line that ends with us being in as we are when we go into the sides of the dummy...only we dont step out and back in as the drill, thats only because the dummy is our tool to face ..in reality we would maintain the attacking momentum line ...flowing attack.

we only turn to face the dummy ...whenwe do techniques aimed off the main body of the dummy it is to imaging the target has shifted to the sides and is going to keep moving etc....we step out and re enter the dummy so we can 'work' our attacking arm cycles....attack - clear/deflect... attack clear deflect....always an attacking hand to keep us being the attacking response...

[k gledhill]

Hey Kev,

When applying the side stance in prefighting, do you step out 45 degree forward to the side then drag the rear foot up?

Is the proper application of the WSL side stance in any of these clips? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU8Yb8r9b-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4tXJ0m6cj4&feature=PlayList&p=F71D07D6E4C0DCC9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59

What's the difference between how you apply the side stance compared to TWC?

also does the fingers of your forward hand point directly to the attacker's centerline like your are going to shoot him?

if you don't pivot in front of the attacker how do you defend against hook punches?

no, no step out, the dummy step out is misunderstood ....too slow....we only re-enter the dummy to face with tan and jum


you can point fingers at the head ;)

you can simply maneuver from the line of force like any fighter...you have to get out of the idea of 'BLOCKING" strikes with a hard pivoting imobile stance...this is making it easier for the guy to deliver follow ups becaus e YOU stopped him from overturning:D...rather you should slip and counter ...let the swings go past as you enter from subtle shifts ....not tan soa blocks everything thinking :D it doesnt work to stay and pivot like a statue while a guy can simply shoot low and take you down as you turn to block an arm no longer there. You have to be moving and avoiding being the intended victim.

cant get the links you sent to run properly


search philipp bayer on you tube he has a few clips you can see side attacking stances in action.....

[goju]

being that wc came from the crane style and crane is based largely on angles to attack and defend its obvious wing chun would as well

[k gledhill]

Goju [the style not you ;)] is based from white crane ..and has simultaneous strikes that deflect in the same stroke...only becasue they dont use the 'elbows in' training they strike downwards to intercept low line karate strikes ....using upward fook/crane beak ? hands to pary and deflect on their lines upwards then do eye strikes etc...
Not the same physical actions as VT but the ideas are floating there....

We only do the low aimed actions in the forms like the opening man/vu to stop beginners raising their elbows up and down , cardinal sin :D....vt no no....so the the tut sao is done aimed low ...it is vu/man in seamless cycling to recover the vu-sao for the perpetual attack idea....cant attack without vu-sao being re chambered ;)

imagine starting with a fight that has a wall behind the guy your attacking ...he cant go back only right <-> left you dont want to go in a straight line at him becasue anyone can side step without MA training...so you converge on them from subtle shifts as you attack if they start to move you havent commited yourself to the attack line and can move [as the dummy] across the parallel dividing lines between you and the target...if they want to go back across your facing line, you can trap them to prevent refacing you squarely or if they are beyond trapping , allow them the movement to try to catch them as they cross your line on the other side ...

becasue we have equally trained facing strikes that have inbuilt tra[[ing/deflecting actions...all we have to do is face outside the flanks they offer by allowing them to move and taking the positions by being in close and 'sticking ' to them by proximity to them and our training to do this by chi-sao seungma toi ma / chum kil stance work etc.. shift face, back forth along a parallel line trying to get close enough to strike...not charging in with a line of force you can see a mile away down the center lead leg ready for thai practice :D

When you imagine this wall or the guy has been pressure by your attack to the a point they cant go back from only sideways to you...you have the chum kil steps while facing flanks to give you this ability, quickly able to move yourself from their strikes but still be close enough to fight them ... as you gain entry striking with 2 free hands along your line ...not chasing anything because your only fighting 50% of the guy iow one arm is close to you , sure this tactic is not exclusive to vt, but we do have the unique ability to have strikes that are giving economy of motion and direct attacking ability with the forearms trained to act as your 'second' set of hands...allowing the vu-sao to always be ready to fill the void of the lead hands [man sao] engagement ...

the SLT contains methods to regain the blocked lines of striking attacks...jut saos, tut saos, bong/vu , low gaun sao [from bil gee] , mid level parry lowering huen sao [ I call the guillotine] ...

the final actions of the form are simple [?:D] strike in rotation, if you finish the SLT form and think the strikes are just with the fists along a stright line , then you need to go back to the beginning start again :D elbows and structure, tactics, behind the fists..not the knuckles alone ;)

The redundancy of chi-sao drills becomes apparent when you see that we never fight as the drill facing with 2 arms extended fighting each of the guys arms....off line :D always man sao & vu-sa

only turn to face the target use the chum kil to achieve this.

the step out and reface dummy in reality is the end position after attacking from a side ...iow you kept going in a side attack past the dummy stand ....the 45 angle you adopt at the dummys side is from the end of the attacking entry...checking that you can reach with either strike tan or jum
jum is done with a side palm [ horizontal palm makes the elbows go inwards, vertical palm is a tan elbow, it spreads OFF the line like a tan strike]

[HumbleWCGuy]

I like Kung Fu figher. He is a true student of Wing Chun.

[k gledhill]

Hey Kev,




O.k. but iniatially when out of range are you waiting in front of the attacker when in the side stance by simply pivoting in place left or right? Or do you take a step 45 degrees forward to the side to set up your line of entry?

what's the difference between how you guys apply the side stance compared to how TWC people, who uses it to cut off the opponent's lateral movements?

I guess what I am asking is the pre-contact side stance done the same way as in the first section of of the dummy where you step to the side then in to reface. Is the side stance applied like the first step to the side where you are facing 45 degrees off to the side before transitioning into the second to step to re-face the dummy?

When doing the side stance are you trying to gain the angle of the opponent like in the dummy?



Is your sternum always facing the attacker or do you sometime face the opponent with your shoulder for a moment before transitioning to re-face with your sternum?

What's the position of seung ma toi ma?




O.K. so it's basically stepping forward zig zaging 45 dregrees going after the opponent like a heat guided missile always facing the opponent? there is no intentional step to the side then re-face?




Could you point to the head with your lead elbow while keeping the hands/fingers pointer to the opponent shoulder or slightly to the outside of it( my right hand to his right shoulder)?

theres no such thing as posing ...in ufc you see guys moving around..same with us.
no 45 deg step to get entry to slow...try it and see if the guy waits for you to come back :D like I said entry on the dummy is misunderstood. just facing at the end of an entry .

I dont do twc, so cant say to compare ;)

We dont cut off wit hard blocks , allowing a guy to make moves can be better for you.
he may make mistakes, if you stop his movement it may prevent the overturning you want , loss of balance etc...

You only turn to face the target....whre is the guy , you face ...he leads right , you have a lead left turned slightly...you might move backwards on alateral line , forwards...think of a clock face and you have the idea.

Sternums dont face squarely unless your drilling in a starting position, the idea is to fight 1/2 the person at any given moment , not letting them face you with both hands/ knives.

when doing the attack, you are trying to make the opponent turn away from you by attacking ....or make them turn , using whatever technique at the moment for the given angles and striking arms/legs...tactically you are moving for this idea...

Seung ma is an attacking step ...toi ma is angling off the line of force , as you do you angle to the side away from the other arm...ie you end up striking the attacking arm with an immediate counter strike in drills , so it becomes intuitive to simply move with an entry to % based angle ...avoiding going back infront of an attack ...or to the side with the following hand...staying in the center...not always possible so we have alternative moves ..bil gee to regain these ideas...

dont think of exact #'s or fingers pointing to the exact point etc... no such thing...we use the ideas as guides
the concept is to attack....how to attack is tactics from knives....bare hands are from SLT, motion from chum kil...


face the target using the chum kil only to aim as they move dont adopt a lead leg until your attacking the sides or have turned them before you...dont chase their hands , strike to their centers, from their sides....all the attacking actions should have an attack in the combination....as the dummy...attack/defense..defense /attack...attack /defense... this can be strikes alone, if trained as a tan strike /elbow spreads offline while fist extends to target across their bridged arm..jum sao elbow stays inward as the arm strikes forwards...the 2 strikes cycling will give you a method not many follow...rather they use move a for strike gate high b...or wait and do a move /self-defense stuff using VT arm shapes...completely different fighters :cool:

I know because Ive been both...now Im doing elbow training daily .

[kung fu fighter]

theres no such thing as posing ...in ufc you see guys moving around..same with us.

O.k. but you said you guys dont adopt a lead leg until you are attacking the sides or have turned the opponent, How do you use the side stance to move around instead of one foot lead stance before getting to the side or turning the opponent?

or do you just adapt a side stance and wait for the opponent to come at you?


So Seung ma is is basically bik ma?

And toi ma is stepping off 45 degree while bracing?

[k gledhill]

O.k. but you said you guys dont adopt a lead leg until you are attacking the sides or have turned the opponent, How do you use the side stance to move around instead of one foot lead stance before getting to the side or turning the opponent?

or do you just adapt a side stance and wait for the opponent to come at you?


So Seung ma is is basically bik ma?

And toi ma is stepping off 45 degree while bracing?



we can converge into the attack using a combination of any footwork from chum kil...along a parallel line moving forwards at the same time ....or kicking etc...or the attack may come at us as we are shifting/moving...like the chi-sao drill , we use random entry to make us prepared to react to sudden unexpected attacks and counter with intuitive reactions...

Seung ma is attacking entry steps using a 1/2 step circle to initiate the entry , the steps attack where the opponent moves to....we take a circuitous step to initiate the move not a direct line , the idea is to move to deliver a line of force for the partner who is not going to stay in front of us, so we train to move in a way that allows us a change of the direction . bik ma is a lead leg stance ...

toi ma is only 45 deg bracing for beginners to learn the correct angles and striking proximity of the jum sao to the seung ma's tan strike stepping entry...once the contact of the counter jum strike elbow positions and angles with balanced structure are correct , then the seung ma step follows through to test the 'whole' compound counter attack ...this is achieved by stepping again to see if the toi ma is balanced , angled correctly etc....done in stages, half measures to allow bracing , but done advanced there is no stopping to allow the check of the angles etc...if the response over turns or is off balance then the seung ma entry advances with the appropriate techniques in a flowing
attack...if the toi ma response makes mistakes we go back to the breakdown of the response..bracing in the 1/2 step stage ....not easy to do when its randomly delivered rom either side, many students get the stance , forget the strike, block the arm rather than strike and deflect and angle in one motion...balanced. But thats the drills idea , to make the relatively simple response natural , moving offside tactically to a line of force from either side entry...add the space & time of no contact in a face off coupled with telegraphic motion of the attacker and it allows for a quicker response ...less thought involved, more on striking than the angling or stance our in....

Add parallel shifts after the steps of seung ma toi ma and you have the chum kil side shifting steps adding further the dimension of a guy who moved back off to the side then went laterally before you...we simply face the movemnt using the steps while attacking with bong sao vu strike etc...or whatever transpires...overturned elbows, bad angles off blance, to slow response , bad vu sao.....perfection under pressure.

[chusauli]

Seung Ma means "advance step". Usually it means the rear leg moves forward, but it can also mean Bik Ma - pressing step, where the lead leg shuffles forward.

As for Toi Ma, it means "take a step back".

Just clarifying the Cantonese terminology.

[k gledhill]

for us going back inside the line of force is a tactical no-no....using the toi ma angling /strike we can counter and move to flanks seamlessly....words would make us think tan sao is about the hand ;) nothing to do with hand :D

[Pacman]

one of WCs main philosophies is to control the center. so that means you are trying to take the fight from a free exchange to a place where you have more control.

this is done by either trapping, uprooting, or from an angle where your opponents attacks do little or no damage

im sure the above has been heard by many people..but that is a core principle of wing chun.

you dont see it on youtube because for whatever reason those sifus choose to ignore or dont understand the core principle or cant apply what they learned successfully.

going back to the original question...what is a wing chun attack that uses angles? ANY! you can use a chain punch (chung choi) from an angle. the fact that many people try to use it without any setups and go straight at the opponent is the fault of the teacher

btw, someone on this thread mentioned that WC practitioners do not circle like boxers and that WCers would use feints and jabs only. i disagree. there is nothing in WC principles that discourages circling an opponent and using feints and jabs

it was also said that by circling an opponent all they have to do is turn and you will be face to face again. that is true, but the whole point is that circling throws off your opponent especially when you use feints and jabs too--its just one more thing they have to worry about.

on top of that circling keeps your opponent from having an easy target. try coming at someone with a straight attack while they are moving laterally. its not as easy

the fact that we have an entire thread devoted to WCers vs boxers shows that people are taking WC forms/kuen kuits etc too literally. they are thinking too much like if A then B

i also want to talk about the 'thats how WC will look when used in a real fight' comments. this drives me nuts. WC will not look like SLT, because you arent supposed to stand around like a potted plant while fighting, but you should still be able to use technique and form w/o swinging wildly

swinging wildly with pure aggression and no technique is how you fight when you are first starting out. when you arent calm and your natural instinct is to defend yourself wildly against an attacking opponent. its not how WC will have to look in a real situation

[chusauli]

for us going back inside the line of force is a tactical no-no....using the toi ma angling /strike we can counter and move to flanks seamlessly....words would make us think tan sao is about the hand ;) nothing to do with hand :D

That is why the BJD set uses stepping backwards at an angle, so that we can still position favorably.

Tan Sao is Tan structure - making your body like a keel of a boat. Let me clarify - a keel of a boat moves forward, so even if you step back to regain your poise, you have to step forward.

[Yoshiyahu]

Great start....please share how will WC look in a real situtation?


Also what do you think about controlling your opponent. Is WC about controlling your opponent?

If so how do you control your opponent. How do you circle and opponent who also side steps or circles too. How do you get to his blind side when he is constantly moving and or circling?

Please share your views?


one of WCs main philosophies is to control the center. so that means you are trying to take the fight from a free exchange to a place where you have more control.

this is done by either trapping, uprooting, or from an angle where your opponents attacks do little or no damage

im sure the above has been heard by many people..but that is a core principle of wing chun.

you dont see it on youtube because for whatever reason those sifus choose to ignore or dont understand the core principle or cant apply what they learned successfully.

going back to the original question...what is a wing chun attack that uses angles? ANY! you can use a chain punch (chung choi) from an angle. the fact that many people try to use it without any setups and go straight at the opponent is the fault of the teacher

btw, someone on this thread mentioned that WC practitioners do not circle like boxers and that WCers would use feints and jabs only. i disagree. there is nothing in WC principles that discourages circling an opponent and using feints and jabs

it was also said that by circling an opponent all they have to do is turn and you will be face to face again. that is true, but the whole point is that circling throws off your opponent especially when you use feints and jabs too--its just one more thing they have to worry about.

on top of that circling keeps your opponent from having an easy target. try coming at someone with a straight attack while they are moving laterally. its not as easy

the fact that we have an entire thread devoted to WCers vs boxers shows that people are taking WC forms/kuen kuits etc too literally. they are thinking too much like if A then B

i also want to talk about the 'thats how WC will look when used in a real fight' comments. this drives me nuts. WC will not look like SLT, because you arent supposed to stand around like a potted plant while fighting, but you should still be able to use technique and form w/o swinging wildly

swinging wildly with pure aggression and no technique is how you fight when you are first starting out. when you arent calm and your natural instinct is to defend yourself wildly against an attacking opponent. its not how WC will have to look in a real situation

[k gledhill]

That is why the BJD set uses stepping backwards at an angle, so that we can still position favorably.

Tan Sao is Tan structure - making your body like a keel of a boat. Let me clarify - a keel of a boat moves forward, so even if you step back to regain your poise, you have to step forward.

angling to fight 1/2 the attack without being inside the arc of 2 free hands at a time is favorable yes :D

tan structure to develop what from the strike, tan is stage 101 of how I put my elbow in and use the outside forearm as the strike goes forwards. Creating 2 lines of force with one action, economy of motion.
I strike and displace your arm by my 'elbow' leaving/spreading off its starting position , as my fist hits you.


a punch is no longer a punch when you learn tan /jum concepts...then they become simple punches again....with an added ability.....each arm can fight a flank and shut it down with the other as backup delivering the same flanking strike from the inside of the arm ..or outside...never leaving the centerline...just facing along the tactical angles as...knives :D you leave the line you bleeeed.:)

[Pacman]

Great start....please share how will WC look in a real situtation?

i cant really describe how everyones WC will look. what is and what is not WC is very subjective...however i can say that the videos on youtube of people brawling and swinging wildly is not WC. at least its not good use of WC



Also what do you think about controlling your opponent. Is WC about controlling your opponent?



If so how do you control your opponent. How do you circle and opponent who also side steps or circles too. How do you get to his blind side when he is constantly moving and or circling?

Please share your views?

i cant give you a formula, especially w/o watching you fight. this is something you will have to figure out how to do. the first step is knowing your goal. at least you know what you are trying to do in a fight. most people who learn WC dont even have that goal in mind.

[Yoshiyahu]

Would you say the roof top fight with bruce lee and the praying mantis fighter is how WC is suppose to look????



i cant really describe how everyones WC will look. what is and what is not WC is very subjective...however i can say that the videos on youtube of people brawling and swinging wildly is not WC. at least its not good use of WC





i cant give you a formula, especially w/o watching you fight. this is something you will have to figure out how to do. the first step is knowing your goal. at least you know what you are trying to do in a fight. most people who learn WC dont even have that goal in mind.

[Pacman]

Would you say the roof top fight with bruce lee and the praying mantis fighter is how WC is suppose to look????

to me the WC posture isnt there and the WC guy doesnt keep his hands up at all...but then again the fighting posture i learned is different than what he learned.

hes relying solely on the chung choi as most yip man guys do and hes not using much skill to set up an attack. hes just going straight in

i cant say for the mantis guy i have no experience with that.

[bennyvt]

bruce had two challenges and none were taped. Are talking about the wu chun lam video where he pushes the guy over a little wall. Those videos were stolen by bruce. He borrowed them off wsl and lied and said he lost them. Then his guys put them in a video of him once he died.

[Yoshiyahu]

to me the WC posture isnt there and the WC guy doesnt keep his hands up at all...but then again the fighting posture i learned is different than what he learned.

hes relying solely on the chung choi as most yip man guys do and hes not using much skill to set up an attack. hes just going straight in

i cant say for the mantis guy i have no experience with that.

Well as for keeping his hands up...it looks like he is keeping his hands on other guys faces constantly...ha ha..

[Ardhi]

Tan da - Tan da. Stepping Forward or backward.