Luohan Quan

[RenDaHai]

Luohan Quan,

Everyones favourite Shaolin sub style.

Here is a video, please watch it;

http://www.56.com/u65/v_MjY0Njg4NzA.html

Who is this man??

Can anyone give me a name or ANY information regarding him?

This is from an 80s Documentary called 'this is kung fu'. It was this exact performance that inspired me to learn Shaolin Kung Fu in the first place... However I have now lived in China in Henan for nearly 4 years and none of the Shaolin masters I have encountered know who this guy is. If he was from Shaolin, many of my past teachers would know who he is, after all his level is high.

So this must be Luohan quan from another place... Everyone I have asked Knows the video, they have all seen it before, but no one knows the man. Some people have suggested that it is Luohan from Wu Tai Mountain. I realise the voiceover is in Cantonese, never the less this style is certainly from northern china.

Can anyone help me? Does anyone know where this quan is from, who this guy is or anything at all about green monk robes?:)

[bawang]

hi

i was going to say look for him somewhere but i found a video clip of that movie on youtube
theres a small description of a style, then it has modern wushu performers perform. have you thought maybe that guy was a modern wushu performer wearing a monk robe?

if you have the chance to meet famous shaolin masters, why not just learn luohanquan from them, why this guy?

[RenDaHai]

Hey There BaWang,

All valid points

Yes a lot of the video was modern wushu, but I have an intimate knowledge of modern wushu and no this is not it. The guy probably isn't a monk and he may well have created the form for performance, but he certainly didn't pull the moves out of thin air, and I want to know where they came from.

I have spent years searching for the best Luohan Quan of Shaolin, and I have found it. I'm studying still. Never the less it is never enough, I would still really like to know who this guy and where his luohan quan is from.

[bawang]

hi rendahai
most of the techniques he did in that video are in shaolin luohanquan
the pose that he did, luohan listening to sutra and luohan sleeping, they are signature move of shaolin luohanquan

[mickey]

Greetings,

Try checking out the Omei, Wudang and Moslem communities.

This is Ma ZhenWu, a Moslem ( I think he is no longer with us) doing Lohan basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHbaV5IHkU&feature=PlayList&p=19E3AA584A75278C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

mickey

[RenDaHai]

Greetings,

Try checking out the Omei, Wudang and Moslem communities.

This is Ma ZhenWu, a Moslem ( I think he is no longer with us) doing Lohan basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHbaV5IHkU&feature=PlayList&p=19E3AA584A75278C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

mickey

Thanks,

I'm in China and I can't watch YouTube (its not inside the great firewall of china) But I'll see if I can put the name in chinese into a chinese video site.

[RenDaHai]

hi rendahai
most of the techniques he did in that video are in shaolin luohanquan
the pose that he did, luohan listening to sutra and luohan sleeping, they are signature move of shaolin luohanquan

Yes they are. I have seen at least 30 different Luohan Quan's in Shaolin and all of these stances appear somewhere, however there is a certain style to this luohan quan that is not familiar... I know he didn't just make up this form from the standard luohan sets that exist in shaolin today, his follows a different character. I think he must have an extended style of Luohan quan and I want to find him and learn it. Luohan quan has the most interesting character of shaolin sets... I'm rather obsessed by it.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The vibe I get from watching that guy is that he is doing Omei (Ermei) Shaolin. In other words, check out Sichuan province martial arts. The temples in China were not as isolated and distinct as some people think. There was much "cross pollination" for the sole purpose of keeping certain traditions alive in case something happens. This is why I suggest that you check out other places where Luohan Chuan can be found. You should not be shocked to find Shaolin forms in the areas that I suggested.

mickey

[RenDaHai]

@mickey

Thanks, good advice.

Certainly there is a lot of cross pollution. Luohan quan especially. Even Daoist alcoves sometimes practice a luohan quan (a distinctly buddhist fist).

I am convinced this luohan quan is not from shaolin, if it was i would have seen it by now.

E'mei shan in my experiance tends to be less exaggerated in its stances, more southern in flavour. I'm leaning towards Wutai Shan. With 100's of buddhist temples and a remote location (many people in trouble would flee to wutai to become monks, it offered sanctuary to bandits, killers, deserters, losing warlords etc and as a result has tons of martial arts) it should have some luohan fist. But i can't find out much about the many many wutai styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have seen that guy in a few Shaolin documentaries on VCD format discs.

Haven't seen his name mentioned in them.

I have seen a clip of him doing another Shaolin set as well.

This doesn't appear to be a Shaolin set though, looks like the salute he did was not Shaolin.

Hmm, I checked through my archives. "This is Kung Fu" was originally called something else in China, it was a documentary about the Emei (Omei) KF and wushu scene. It was mostly about modern Wushu development. My copy is not called "This is Kung Fu" it is called "Emei Wushu".

[RenDaHai]

@ Sal

hmm, That is interesting...

I think they may have used and reused the footage a lot. In the one i have they go to e'mei shan for a bit and show some monkey boxing, but they also go to wutai, song shan, wudang, they go to the south and show nan quan, then they have a large section on jet li and show him doing fan zi quan. It is mainly about the different styles of modern wushu in china but it does contain a few traditional forms as well. If your into modern forms this video has the best performances on it. I actually first got this dvd in a compilation of old jet li movies, since he features heavily in the documentary.

But if they used it in an e'mei documentary as well then there is a chance it is emei luohan, but all the videos i have of e'mei kung fu are pretty ugly close quarters short range sort of forms.

I would love to see this guy doing some other shaolin sets. This luohan quan really has the luohan feeling, I HAVE to find this guys name!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

@ Sal

hmm, That is interesting...

I think they may have used and reused the footage a lot. In the one i have they go to e'mei shan for a bit and show some monkey boxing, but they also go to wutai, song shan, wudang, they go to the south and show nan quan, then they have a large section on jet li and show him doing fan zi quan. It is mainly about the different styles of modern wushu in china but it does contain a few traditional forms as well. If your into modern forms this video has the best performances on it. I actually first got this dvd in a compilation of old jet li movies, since he features heavily in the documentary.

But if they used it in an e'mei documentary as well then there is a chance it is emei luohan, but all the videos i have of e'mei kung fu are pretty ugly close quarters short range sort of forms.

I would love to see this guy doing some other shaolin sets. This luohan quan really has the luohan feeling, I HAVE to find this guys name!!

yeah, I think you are right, in the Emei doc, they do not have all those extra scenes from the other places. So, they must have used just the Emei parts.

I think what I have also seen him do was some Hong quan sets? Not sure.
If I find the other clip, I will post it on Youtube (but you can't get that in China?).

He might be just an actor all along though, if the clips are from another film originally. The other clip I have seen looks like it came from the same source.

-----------------------------

I looked through my archives and I found I have a copy of that film in Mandarin with English subtiles. That clip was indeed filmed at Shaolin itself, so it is not Emei. And, it says that the form he is doing is an 18 Luohan Shou set, 18 Luohan Hands, not Luohan Quan.
Still, it is not one that I have ever seen. It looks like it is just a selection of random movements from Luohan style, which it might have been made just for the film to give an idea of Luohan Quan.
But, it says the film is from 1994, not 1980s, he kinda looks about 50 years old in that clip, so today he is close to 70 years old, yes?
Also, it does not give his name at all.

I looked through as many Shaolin clips as I could so far, but I haven't found him in any of them yet.
Sorry I couldn't have been of more help, if I ever come across him in anything, I will let you know here in this thread.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ha, ha, this is stupid, but most people's highlight of that film when we were much younger is the girl doing the snake or dragon style in the cave with the green body stocking on. Every time she turns around you can see her shiny white behind, looks nice and round and kinda sexy. hah ha.

[mawali]

There are so many variants of Lohuanquan that one will have to identify the region practiced, the origin, location (village, town), the master's name and who was his teacher!

I learnt a Lohanquan form, and 2 man sequence taught by teacher Yucheng Huang (died some years ago) who learnt it in Guangdong (big province, I know) and he supposedly learnt it at Shaolin!

[Sal Canzonieri]

There are so many variants of Lohuanquan that one will have to identify the region practiced, the origin, location (village, town), the master's name and who was his teacher!

I learnt a Lohanquan form, and 2 man sequence taught by teacher Yucheng Huang (died some years ago) who learnt it in Guangdong (big province, I know) and he supposedly learnt it at Shaolin!

The reason that there is so many different Luohan Quan is because of a few reason, which I will explain:

1 - the name "Luohan Quan" is what it became known as but it is not the original name of the style. it was originally called "Defending and Attacking, Advancing and Retreating Boxing", which was composed of all the material that was developed in the 1400s from Monk Jue Yuan's collaboration and further refining of old Shaolin Quan with the Hong Quan and staff methods from Li Sou and the internal ground fighting methods of Bai Yue Feng. They developed a large number of sets.

2 Over time these sets were practiced in the area, they eventually separated into Shaolin Hong Quan system, 5 Fists system (the animal sets) and what became later known as the Luohan System (composed of various 28 Luohan Hands sets and a few Luohan Quan sets. One of which became known as the Da Luohan Quan, a huge set containing all the postures and movements in one set. To help prepare for this huge set, they created many training sets, which became known as Xiao Luohan, Lao Luohan, Duan Da Luohan, and more.
This material is practiced all over Denfeng, Luoyang, Kaifeng, and other parts of Henan.

3 - the Shrine areas of shaolin was were the anti-Qing rebels stationed themselves and they practiced all these sets, plus their local village long fist and mixed it all together, and this stuf, and this stuff spread to other areas, especially Shandong province.

4 - the students of Bai Yu feng and Jue Yuan, such as Yi Quan, and others eventually fled to southern China, where their students became the founders of the Choy Gar style. Eventually this developed into Choy Li Fut style. These southern styles have the most closed connection to Northern Shaolin Five Fists (which they developed the Five Animals sets from). Eventually this material filtered into the other southern Shaolin based styles (Hung Gar, and so on).

So, all these area practice set that they call Luohan Quan, not to mention people that went to Wudang and Emei, and they all do some kind of Luohan Quan material. Some sets are preserved from ancient times accurately, some are parts of the original Luohan material mixed with local martial arts.
Now, there are tons of Luohan Quan sets from all over, and it is just a way of saying "Shaolin Quan".

[mickey]

Greetings,

Ah, so it is Omei. Told ya!!

The documentary "This is Kung Fu" appears to be a compilation of Wushu clips that were shown on Chinese televison from time to time, like a snippet between major programs. What has been offered on video was not the one shown in NYC Chinatown at the Rosemary Theater.

mickey

[RenDaHai]

-----------------------------

I looked through my archives and I found I have a copy of that film in Mandarin with English subtiles. That clip was indeed filmed at Shaolin itself, so it is not Emei. And, it says that the form he is doing is an 18 Luohan Shou set, 18 Luohan Hands, not Luohan Quan.
Still, it is not one that I have ever seen. It looks like it is just a selection of random movements from Luohan style, which it might have been made just for the film to give an idea of Luohan Quan.
But, it says the film is from 1994, not 1980s, he kinda looks about 50 years old in that clip, so today he is close to 70 years old, yes?
Also, it does not give his name at all.

I looked through as many Shaolin clips as I could so far, but I haven't found him in any of them yet.
Sorry I couldn't have been of more help, if I ever come across him in anything, I will let you know here in this thread.

Cool, thanks very much for checking! I think there may be different versions of this documentary. Most of the footage of Jet Li for example is early 80's so although some versions of the Docu may have come out in 1994 they clearly used archived footage, which means dating the video is very hard. In the video it is referred to as 18 luohan quan, not as luohan 18 hands. This is another variant style. (there are 18 luohans, each with different characteristics, typically this kung fu would have 9 or 18 sets. 18 luohan fist is the long name of luohan quan, luohan shi ba shou or 18 hands is a different substyle from shaolin, incidentally no one knows the original 18 hands). He may have compiled the form for the movie, but one would only have to look at the way he walked a circle in the form (not a shaolin move), or the expression on his face and his impeccable timing to see he is a high level expert.

I don't recognise the temple in the background, and i am rather familiar with dengfengs various temples. If it were filmed near shaolin I think they would simply have used a famous shaolin master of the time, and filmed shaolins luohan quan. I think this is not filmed in the 90s style,even for china. I think this clip will be an 80's clip. I also estimate the master to be around 70 now.

I can't imagine it is ermei, it doesn't fit. There is a style of Luohan quan practiced in kaifeng which is a little close, but not the same. But If this guy was from this area my teacher would certainly know him. Thousands of famous masters have visited shaolin over the centuries, anyone could have taken this style home with him to any part of china at any time. Its tough to find.

Thanks again for your input, everyone

[RenDaHai]

@ sal,

Yeah, I certainly remember the girl doing snake style in the cave...( snake in the cave, almost an inuendo)... Wushu hottie. She might as well have been naked.

Incidently I always thought of this as just a modern set, has anyone seen an extended style which only uses snake movements?

[GeneChing]

There's a consistency within Shaolin Luohan forms that is unique. They almost always emphasis some movements involving bowing the hands or a similar 'luohan' like gesture. For this reason, I wouldn't go as far as to say 'it is just a way of saying "Shaolin Quan".' It's a specific subset of Shaolinquan. However, I understand Sal's intention behind this comment and agree with it in general principle.

There's an interesting Luohan DVD in our Grandmasters series (which is mostly Emei-based masters):
Grandmaster Peng Gaoji: Arhat Fist (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-og008.html)
luohanquan 罗汉拳
In the final years of the Qing Dynasty, Yang Zhaoyuan of Leshan Mountain followed his master Shi Zhipu to Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan Province to study martial arts. Yang mastered the Shaolin method and returned to Leshan to teach Arhat Fist in the Neijiang district. An Arhat, or luohan in Chinese, is an enlightened being of Buddhist mythology often imbued with magical powers.

I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
Part 1 2001 July/August (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138)
Part 2 2001 September/October (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=140)
Part 3 2001 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142)
Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144)

Here are the lyrics from that article series.
1. yue bei shi – prepare
2. chi shi – beginning posture
3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
36. long xing bu – dragon form step
37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
85. sao shi – ending pose

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal
How many old Shaolin traditions have you run across that use "Shaolin Luohan Men" 纙漢門 as a discriptor?

I understand that Sun Yu Fung's Lohan Men and Miao Xing's Luohan are not the same. What is your understanding of the term "Luohan Men"?
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal
How many old Shaolin traditions have you run across that use "Shaolin Luohan Men" 纙漢門 as a discriptor?

I understand that Sun Yu Fung's Lohan Men and Miao Xing's Luohan are not the same. What is your understanding of the term "Luohan Men"?
r.

No, I've only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung's martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun's teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

Miao Xing's Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style's) Wan Laisheng's Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There's a consistency within Shaolin Luohan forms that is unique. They almost always emphasis some movements involving bowing the hands or a similar 'luohan' like gesture. For this reason, I wouldn't go as far as to say 'it is just a way of saying "Shaolin Quan".' It's a specific subset of Shaolinquan. However, I understand Sal's intention behind this comment and agree with it in general principle.

There's an interesting Luohan DVD in our Grandmasters series (which is mostly Emei-based masters):
Grandmaster Peng Gaoji: Arhat Fist (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-og008.html)
luohanquan 罗汉拳
In the final years of the Qing Dynasty, Yang Zhaoyuan of Leshan Mountain followed his master Shi Zhipu to Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan Province to study martial arts. Yang mastered the Shaolin method and returned to Leshan to teach Arhat Fist in the Neijiang district. An Arhat, or luohan in Chinese, is an enlightened being of Buddhist mythology often imbued with magical powers.

I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
Part 1 2001 July/August (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138)
Part 2 2001 September/October (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=140)
Part 3 2001 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142)
Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144)

Here are the lyrics from that article series.
1. yue bei shi – prepare
2. chi shi – beginning posture
3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
36. long xing bu – dragon form step
37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
85. sao shi – ending pose

Well, sure the Luohan Quan no matter from what lineage at the very least show the 18 Luohan Hands postures. So, they connect to each other in that way. But often the sets, even if they have the same name, were pretty different from each other, depending on which lineage it came from.

But, many times you might people teaching "Luohan Quan" and it is material like typical Shaolin, such as Xiao and Da Hong quan, Pao Quan, and Luohan sets.
So, the name is used in a confusing way.

But, yes, of course, the real Luohan Quan is a specific core of material, regardless of the lineage, that draws from the material developed by Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, and Li Sou. This is a specific core of material that they developed, which became known as Luohan Quan later on, specifically because some of the sets they developed or had roots in were named 18 Luohan Hands.

The tough thing about Luohan Quan today at Shaolin is that the main set is Da Luohan Quan and barely anyone knows the full set of 108 postures (and 365 movements). I know that one version of it is taught in Dengfeng by the Liu family in their famous schools.
Then, what they show in exhibitions is called Da Luohan Quan, but is really an abbreviated set that is learned for show by most of the "monks" teaching or doing shows at Shaolin. So, they never get to learn the big 108 set because it is too long and complicate for them. (See how things die out?)

The Xiao Luohan Quan is another problematic set. There is really a Xiao Luohan Quan set that goes way back to Jue Yuan. It's not that short of a set.
But, then there is this abbreviated version of it being done in Shaolin as well.
And sometimes the short version of Da Hong Quan is called Xiao Hong Quan as well! So, then it becomes even more confusing.

Correction:
The version in the magazine is the shortened version of Da Luohan Quan, which is often called Xiao Luohan today. It's not the actual Xiao Luohan Quan set from ancient times.

I will post videos of the various Luohan sets so people can see them and not be so confused.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That Emei Luohan is from the later Qing Dynasty era.
It appears to be a Five Animals set, which some of the early Luohan is like.
It's a lot different from the 18 Luohan Hands derived Shaolin Luohan sets.
Very southern Shaolin like, as is much Emei martial arts, very Hung Gar looking.

See the thread I did on Ming dynasty Shaolin from Jue Yuan and Bai Yuefeng, where I listed the forms they taught.

[r.(shaolin)]

No, I've only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung's martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun's teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

Miao Xing's Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style's) Wan Laisheng's Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.


羅漢門
派 - Pai
家 - Jia
門 - Gate
Each of these terms have a different implication when used to describe a martial arts tradition.


Although there are many specific sets that have the character's 羅漢 Luohan in their name, "Shaolin Luohan Quan" and :Shaolin Luohan Men" were a way of say that a martial art tradition came from "Shaolin" or, out "from the gate/school of Shaolin". If I'm reading you correctly, I would agree that these Shaolin traditions draw or are based on the material developed by Jue Yuan, and Bai Yufeng combined with older Shaolin methods and with Hong (洪) Quan. Shaolin Luohan school had a large number of sets not just 18.

I as well know that there are at least four other Shaolin Luohan traditions besides the one my teacher learned - all came from Henan.. However, none of the sets from these different lineages are the same. Having said that there are some similarities in terms of basics and techniques.

1. Sun Yufung's Louhan which comes from the Shandong area. Sun's teacher was Yuan Tung Tan was from Luoyang, far as I know.

2. The Luohan style that cames from Liu Bai Chuan taught by Yang Cheng Yun.

3. There is a Luohan tradition taught by Shi De Gen.

4. and Miao Xing's Luohan style.

[RenDaHai]

I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
Part 1 2001 July/August (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138)
Part 2 2001 September/October (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=140)
Part 3 2001 November/December (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142)
Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144)

Here are the lyrics from that article series.
1. yue bei shi – prepare
2. chi shi – beginning posture
3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
36. long xing bu – dragon form step
37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
85. sao shi – ending pose

YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely 'chao mei luohan' and 'fuhu luohan'. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.

This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou's set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.

I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).

The character of the form is really important in Luohan Quan. All the versions I have seen except this one from Degen Da shi lack the character. Its part in performance and part in the specific form.

The term 'xiao luohan' is a modern naming culture. Actually it is the last Luohan quan actually practiced inside the temple (before communist era). Thus it is just referred to as Luohan quan. A lot of forms referred to as Xiao and Da nowadays were not always so. Often forms that were form DengFeng county have been called Da (greater area, e.g Da tongbei, Da pao quan, Da luohan) and forms that are now called xiao (i.e xiao tong bei, xiao pao, xiao luohan) are the forms most recently practiced in shaolin temple. They were originally just tong bei quan, pao quan, luohan quan. You will find the shaolin temple forms tend to be much longer (usually consisting of 3 sets linked together) they also contain exceptional poetic symmetry. Not to say deng feng does not have good forms, there are great forms there too, but they are forms which may have stopped being practiced at shaolin a long time ago, or were never practiced there. They are all shaolin pai though. ( I must note xiao and da hong quan were always xiao and da hong quan, and, all things considered, perhaps shaolins greatest forms).

I have encountered about 40 forms that could all claim to be shaolin Luohan quan. Since the last version practiced at shaolin was the one by Degen Da Shi then we must consider this as the Final Evolution of Shaolin Temples Luohan Quan (things evolve constantly, what if we were to consider the physics of Isaac Newton as the original physics and then abandon the last few centuries of evolution?) So, fascinating as it is to look for earlier incarnations we must have a cut off point.

Some families still retain a 9 set luohan quan, the sets have a symmetry spread over all the forms so can be practiced as one (if you have the stamina).

Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.

so a version constructed for competition which begins with tong zi bai fo... this one is not worth learning but is the most common version around today.

There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hold on, I think some things are not correct exactly.


YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely 'chao mei luohan' and 'fuhu luohan'. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.

The set shown in the 4 issues of the magazine is the abbreviated modern version of Da Luohan Quan, which here is being called Xiao Luohan Quan.
It is not the original Xiao Luohan Quan at all.


This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou's set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.

It is only a little bit similar to the set in the Tagou books. The set in volume 3 in the Tagou book is the Da Luohan Quan set that Dengfeng area does. It is not even the complete set, though it is very long. It is missing a section and missing the last section. I have another book by Liu Zhen Hai which shows the Da Luohan set with the missing sections, but that one is missing a different section. I have been told by someone from there to put the two together and then I will have the complete set (the sets in the books were marked with missing sections to see if someone only learned from books not from a teacher).


I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).

It is NOT the set practiced by Shi Degen at all. His Luohan Quan Yi Lu is not at all like this set and not at all like the Da Luoan, Xiao Luohan, or Er Lu Luohan sets shown in the 3 volumes of the Tagou books.
I have the original book that was published 20 years ago or more showing Shi Degen's in drawings doing his Luohan Quan Yi Lu set, the full set.
Zhu Tian Xi has recently republished this book, I have it too, it is exactly the same.

I will post a list of videos showing the different Luohan sets. Including Shi Degen's version.


Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.

Zhang Shi Jie's video is only the first 60 of the 85 postures of Shi Degen's Luohan Quna Yi Lu set. it is missing the remaining section.


There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.

This is true.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh,

I'll add something. I am currently in China and will be for the forseeable future. My master Shi Yong Wen was a student of Degen Da shi (and of wu shan lin, and of su xi and many other famous masters).

He wrote the first book on Luohan quan published after the formation of PRC (back in the late 70's). Many of the versions in DengFeng were simply learned form his books. It is the version as done by Degen Da shi. I cant speak for the version by shi guo lin but it is definatly much better than the version at Tagou (which i also know).

Anyway I am translating this book at the moment. It is rather short but contains the full luohan quan, and my master has the copyright and original retro photos. Anyway, does anyone know if there is a market for short books on forms? Does anyone know if a magazine like KungFu magazine would publish it in their magazine? Or would it be better to combine it into a larger compilation of all his books? I wish to help him publish his books for the west.

By the thanks everyone for your info on this thread... I WILL find this man and I WILL learn this version of luohan quan!

Can you give the Chinese characters for Shi Yong Wen and for the title of his Luohan Quan book? I made have it. I have just about every book in Chinese on martial arts concerning Shaolin, except for a few that I am missing.

[David Jamieson]

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's as many as I could find of Luohan style videos, if you find more to add, let me know and I will update.
By the way, Shaolin Quan was originally called Shaolin Chui, as was Luohan Quan originally called Luohan Chui, before the Qing Dynasty era.

Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - also called Xiao Luohan Quan in Dengfeng / Tagou school (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 First 60 of the 85 postures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (also shortened)

Da Luohan Quan (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai), first 30 postures of 85 in correct order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

Lao Jia (old frame) Luohan Quan (also called 3 Section Luohan) - Shi Deyang's version (this set often called Xiao Luohan today because it is like a summary of Da Luohan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - a modern times set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

Shaolin Luohan Quan 27 Postures:
(no videos yet)

Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan:
(no videos yet)

Related sets:

Shaolin Luohan Duan Da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vheDniwQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQDYU98FTTs

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Zhang - 18 PALMS not hands (very rare to see):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8qAFB8Wc

Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

Shaolin Damo (also known as Luohan) Shi Ba Shou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76m4-enGS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-Z4tiFkus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4YPOG8uvg

Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

Shaolin Xinyi Luohan Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbS0aXhvVGA

Unknown Luohan Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP91ZyILso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNCLIkcohA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWfj9zVU4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3mbYdVPDKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8OMqscdrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZljLs_gYIOs

Da Luohan Quan from Chan family Nei Jia Quan style (derived from original Shaolin Luohan Quan in Henan from the 1600s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjvN5U8tRc

Southern Shaolin - Choy Li Fut Luohan Pu Hu Quan (Fuk Fu Kune), the closest you can get to seeing what Luohan Quan might have originally looked like since Choy Gar is directly from Northern Shaolin, it is only two-three generations away from founder Monk Jue Yuan. Jue Yuan taught Yi Quan, who taught the founder of Choy (Chu) Gar.

[David Jamieson]

:eek:

that's a lot of material.

I liked the Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou 18 Hands set after watching them all. :)

[r.(shaolin)]

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?


In the context of Shaolin the term "luohan" is significant specifically in its relationship to the martial arts. Within context to northern Chinese Buddhism, the 'luohan' were guardians and defenders of Buddhism. In Sanskrit they are known as the Arhan/Arhat/Sthavira, 'the disciples of Buddha and the guardians of Buddhism. The Indian word means: "one who is worthy of receiving deference" In Tibetan Buddhism (dain i darughsan) their role is further clarified as “vanquishers of the enemies (of Buddhism)". This is why when the term, "Shaolin Luohan Quan" or "Shaolin Luohan Men" is use, what is being referred to is the martial arts of the defending monks of Shaolin Monastery.
cheers,
r.

[GeneChing]

We ran an article on that in our 1998 November issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=87). Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications by Shawn Xiangyang Liu. He's connected to Shi Deyang, but I'm not sure if this is the same form that Deyang propounds. The article details the lyrics in Mandarin, but I don't have easy access to that file so I'll have to copy them by hand. I've pulled the issue and hope to do so when I need a break.

[LFJ]

This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.

its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that "daluohanquan". the one master deyang does is also called "old frame", laojia luohanquan of 36 postures total. it is practiced in ven. suxi's lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under.

although ven. suyun's disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like a shorter version of that, so they share similar layout and sequences. :)

in fact, according to master deyang, first there were the neigong sets. from luohan shibashou came the 36 posture luohan boxing set, which today is called "xiaoluohan" or "laojia luohan". then there came six roads of "daluohanquan", and the enormous system of shaolin luohanquan thus evolved, complete with weapon sets as well.

[LFJ]

Deyang is a great teacher and an even nicer person, never the less you musn't take all he says or all his forms as gospal versions,

I would love to hear what people say about his version of Zhaoyang quan for example.....

i would trust him on his experience in shaolin, having studied under several of the elder generation monks of the 20th century. also being the keeper of the library, transcribing ancient texts, and his work with ven. deqian.

also, regarding his sets, note that the video versions arent often what is taught at his school. not even as beginner versions. they are the bare bone versions. he teaches the fine detail in person though.

zhaoyangquan, for example, on the video is missing a series of leg and hand techniques in between the two "tongzi baifo" postures.

[LFJ]

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)

[GeneChing]

I first learned Luohan from Yanming in a one-day seminar. I kept that for a spell, but eventually let it go because there was no one to coach me further on it. It mapped more or less on to the Luohan that was presented in Guolin's article series (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=960237&postcount=19).

Funny story - Guolin wasn't that accustomed to being in a photo shoot where you constantly have to stop and do it again. It messed with his flow and he kept losing his place. By that time, I had forgotten Yanming's Luohan, but could still remember bits of it and could coach Guolin back on track. He kept insisting that I knew the form and trying to get me to show him my version.

I learned a Luohan again under my master Decheng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44742). I really liked his version and I'm embarrassed that that I lost it. His was the most divergent.

I learned it again from Yanfei, who I'm training under now. He hasn't drilled me on it in months, so it's pretty rusty. I keep thinking I should pester him to bring that one back into our rotation, but only half of the class knows it and we have some newbies now, so he's focused on getting them up to speed. I really should dig that one out again and bring it back into my practice.

[LFJ]

We say it is mixed up as there is a lot missing plus he changes a few directions.

you're comparing two different sets. :)


For example the ban shou followed by xuan feng jiao. This is one move, you use ban shou to distract the opponant and prepare for the big kick, its a common combination, that saying xuan feng must be done in the same direction as the ban shou. Deyang turns back on himself eliminating the meaning. he compensates for this by spinning into bai fo.

actually in application of the move in laojia luohanquan you turn back the opposite direction after banshou to entice the opponent to come forward, at which point you launch the xuanfengjiao. it takes off in the opposite direction, but still hits the charging opponent.

the same strategy is used in mizongquan yilu, toward the end after banshou comes a tengkong bailian, then a chopping palm in the opposite direction, enticing the opponent forward when you've apparently turned away. then you catch them with the "hoist a flag in the wind" technique which snaps back at them. it resembles the ceremonial way the chinese throw out their flag to be raised up the pole if you've seen that.

[LFJ]

I don't think they would have learned it from Suxi though, he was Nanyuan pai, and mainly taught Xiao Tongbei well. Plus he had already mostly stopped practicing by the time deyang would have become his disciple.

?

by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the "group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu", and published texts like "the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing". he was known as the "shaolin boxing king". his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the "young shaolin boxing king" for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.


Zhao yang quan is not actually Zhaoyang quan at all. That form is called gaunchao quan or tide watching form in english, and Deyang has changed it dramatically.

its the same "zhaoyangquan" in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Hmm, ok.

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.

I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
.

[LFJ]

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it.

i reference it because you say master deyang mixed things up and made his own version and changed names. but its obvious he's not the only one who does these sets this way. :) "misinformation" also depends on what/who you tend to believe.


That move is in Mizong ER lu, at the end.

its taught as yilu by master deyang, before the other set that is erlu. even though the instructional videos have them named backward.

[LFJ]

the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak? :)

[sha0lin1]

Question for you guys. Is Chaoyang Quan and Zhaoyang Quan one in the same? Or are they two different forms?

[RenDaHai]

@ Shaolin 1

Chaoyang quan is a shortened version of Zhaoyang quan with a slightly different name.

(Chaoyang = Sunny) (Zhaoyang = Rising Sun)

Both are actually not the original zhaoyang quan (that is 3 forms long 180 movements). The form your referring to is GuanChao quan (tide watching form). It was taught to the school students in DengFeng during the late 50's early 60's.

[RenDaHai]

@ LFJ

I spent 3 months at Wu Seng Hou Bei Dui last summer. Deyang Shi taught me Er lo personally and taught yi lu to the entire school together. Yi lu is a little different to the videos, If you break it up it has 9 xu bu's plus a tenth stance which is unique, halfway between a Xu Bu and a Pu Bu (he doesn't use it in the video). When we were all learning it he would stop for a few minutes at every stance and talk about it. We all had to stay in stance while he was talking. With that many Xu bu's it was a killer.

I have lived in China almost continuously for 4 years. I never specifically learned chinese but I can speak reasonably well. Can't read or write it though :-).

[LFJ]

you mean last year? i'm sure i know which one you are. :)

thought you learned it from coach li.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Yes! I do mean last year. Lose track of time here. I guess I know who you are too then ;-) Hey, how you doin?

If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.

Yeah, after Li Ya Fei taught me the shape of it Deyang Shi spent a few afternoons with me and changed a few bits and told me a bit more about it.

After another 6 weeks or so he taught the entire school Yi lu. We practiced it all in lines together, but we spent a really long time on it comparitively, and he talked a lot about each stance. I never used to like the look of Yi Lu but after that I appreciate it a lot more than Er lu.

[LFJ]

Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - very hard to find full version on video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (shortened) version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

the second video here is the (real) xiaoluohanquan. you must have entered that in this group by mistake.

here is a video by shi dejun of luohanquan erlu, ending at the same place as your first video.
http://v.ku6.com/show/l_nveCmqYRWmNOvf.html

[LFJ]

If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.

thats the longer daluohanquan set, whereas master deyang's is laojia luohanquan, now called xiaoluohanquan of 36 postures. two different sets. :)

[LFJ]

Luohan Quan,

Everyones favourite Shaolin sub style.

Here is a video, please watch it;

http://www.56.com/u65/v_MjY0Njg4NzA.html



So this must be Luohan quan from another place... Everyone I have asked Knows the video, they have all seen it before, but no one knows the man. Some people have suggested that it is Luohan from Wu Tai Mountain. I realise the voiceover is in Cantonese, never the less this style is certainly from northern china.

Can anyone help me? Does anyone know where this quan is from, who this guy is or anything at all about green monk robes?:)

saw another video of it with this in the description.

十八罗汉手，本为古老拳种陕西红拳类，传到明末清初时，只得九势（式）或十势，可分左右演练。到了福建，变 成了罗汉拳(后称达尊拳)的基本功夫。后衍生出大、小罗汉拳。到了广东，融会于洪拳之中，称佛家拳或佛掌， 由于起式为左右穿花，故花拳之名较为流行。

18 luohan shou (十八罗汉手), an ancient boxing type of shaanxi hongquan (陕西红拳).

also related to fujian luohanquan (福建罗汉拳), later called dazunquan (达尊拳), and in guangdong blended with hongquan (洪拳, canto: hungkyun) into fojiaquan (佛家拳, canto: fatgakyun) also called "buddha palm"- fozhang (佛掌, canto: fatjeung).

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Awesome,

Thank you very much!

Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can't go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.

I've been meaning to go back there for a long time, I'll go next spring and see if I can find this style.

[sha0lin1]

the second video here is the (real) xiaoluohanquan. you must have entered that in this group by mistake.

here is a video by shi dejun of luohanquan erlu, ending at the same place as your first video.
http://v.ku6.com/show/l_nveCmqYRWmNOvf.html

I learned this one (the second one) as Xiao Luohan quan as well.

[LFJ]

Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can't go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.

I've been meaning to go back there for a long time, I'll go next spring and see if I can find this style.

well, lets not get too hasty just yet. :)

i found the chinese wikipedia page on it: http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/十八罗汉手

its exactly what was pasted into the description of that luohanquan video. i cant confirm that it actually has anything to do with that particular set, but it does seem to have some similarities to shaanxi hongquan.

however, before you run off to wutaishan, isnt that in shanxi 山西 province, rather than shaanxi 陕西?

[LFJ]

Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - First 60 of the 85 postures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)

............

Shaolin (real) Xiao Luohan Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (only the first 40 postures of 65, first 50 movements of 85)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)

why do you group these two separately with different names?

these are exactly the same set. especially the second xiaoluohanquan video posted. it is exactly the same as the luohanquan yilu set performed by zhang shijie, and even says it is the first road in a series of 18, taught by ven. shi degen.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Yes, I was thinking of ShanXi not Shaanxi. I am personally most leaning towards this style being from wutai shan.

shaanxi... not as famous for kung fu.

I'll go to wutai anyway, hears they have some interesting bits of shaolin kung fu in the temples there.

But the search continues. I'll see what I can find out about shaanxi hong quan.


@Shaolin1

The form you learned is the third of three common luohan quans. I've never seen it called xiao luohan, but these names don't really matter. In the books by Tagou which outline all 3 major versions of luohan quan, this is referred to as er lo luohan or refined luohan. THe original form stops at the contemplation of buddha stance (sword fingers poining to temples) then does tong bei quans end kicking sequence (you all know the one). A newer version has some extra moves added to extend the form to competition length. THis is actually by far the most taught luohan quan. If you ask to learn luohan quan most schools only practice this version.

[LFJ]

sha0lin1 and i were talking about a different set being mixed in with the videos of the refined luohanquan. it was the one commonly called daluohanquan, which is apparently the real xiaoluohanquan instead.

the great firewall of china has prevented you from following along on youtube. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

They're in pinyin, so they're almost useless unless you have a similar set. We published the Chinese characters in the original article, but it would take me days to plug all those in (and the issue is so old that we don't have that file as text anymore). If you want the characters, you'll have to pick up the back issue. It's Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications in our 1998 Oct/Nov issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=87).

1. Fu zi gong shou
2. Huai zhong bao yuei (fan zhang)
3. Bai hu xi lian
4. Ni lib a cong
5. Sahng bu tui dao qiang
6. Shang bu liang shou]
7. Ying mian bei zhang (bang zhang)
8. Shuang shou zha qian jin (you beng zhou)
9. Beng zhou lu shi (zhou beng zhou)
10. Jie shou kan zhang
11. Xian ren zhai qie
12. Meng hu zhuang shen
13. Puo xin zhou
14. Zhuan sehn beng zhou
15. Zhuan shen jin jiao jian
16. Xiao hou qiang gua
17. Lao hu gui shan
18. Xian ren gui dong

[Sal Canzonieri]

@ Sal

Wow, some list of videos... I can't see them unfortunately as it is banned in china, however from your comments I recognise a lot of the videos.

Firstly we can't be too pedantic about the forms, even two teachers from the same school will perform a form quite differently.

There are two major distinct forms. THere are many many versions of each, but the vast mojority fit into one of these two categories.

1. The one that starts with two palms crossing at the dantian- sparrow hawk turns its body - wind through the ears - cut palm in rest stance. In the middle it has whirlwind kick to rest stance praise buddha, after which it has two pu bu kicks, one to each side then it jump kicks into 'a gnarled tree with twisted roots' the classic luohan posture.

This form is the one listed above, it is the 'da luohan' in Tagous books and, as different as may be, it IS the one taught by Degen Da Shi. Degen died in 1970. This form I know is the one he taught Yang Gui Wu, I assume (because i have not met him in person) it is the one taught to Zhu Tian Xi (assume because my master told me it was and because i didn't get a chance to look inside but I have seen the cover of the book tian xi wrote, he uses 'meng hu chu dong' this posture does not exist in the other luohan quan set). Different as the one in Tagous books, the one listed and the one Degen practiced are... They at least contain the above mentioned postures in common. We can assume they come from one form originally.

This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.

The number of moves in this form vary between 36 (deyangs) about 85 (tagous). The book by shi yong wen lists 126 moves (although some intermediate postures are included).

In 9 form luohan this is er lo (to first zuo shan) and san lo.

2. The form practiced by Zhang shi jie (white robes on black background, you know the video). This form is more common in Deng Feng. In Tagous books this is the form referred to as 'Xiao Luohan'. Without actually knowing tagous form you might find this hard to see, however it is indeed the same form. Ofcourse a lot of moves are different and zhang shi jie has a lot extra shou fa, but it is basically the same sequence of the same moves. (some xu bu's changed to gong bu's and vice versa, a head but instead of an elbow, but roughly the same). This form does not actually have the Luohan quan character, apart form two moves (luohan shui jiao and Tiger shakes his fur).

In 9 form luohan quan this is yi lo luohan.

I do know Zhu Tian Xi spent some time teaching at Zhang Shi Jie's school (hui guang Wu xiao, XIn Zheng), I dont know if Zhang shi jie is ZHu tian xis student.

THe video zhang shi jie made is about 15 years old now.

3. There is a third common luohan quan. 'refined luohan' or er lo luohan in tagous books. This is very common in the big schools in dengfeng, it is often used for competition. Originally the form ended with the 'contemplation of buddha' stance (sword fingers pointed to the temple). However since most competitions require 1min20 second forms and this fell slightly short they added a few moves, so it has a few moves form Pao quan slapped on the end. THis form is not an old form. It is luohan quan made up of some of remaining fragments of luohan not contained in the two forms i named above. It is not really worth learning. It contains NO symmetry. You can tell how well constructed a form is from its subtle poetic symmetry. In modern forms they try to make every stance different to make it look cool, however this loses the character of the form, and loses the strategy hidden within. Its a modern form, don't bother.


I dont know if Degen knew both of these forms (1 and 2) (he knew a lot and taught different things to different people). But I do Know for a fact that the form by Shi Yong Wen is the same as the form taught to Yang Gui Wu.... I read an article by Zhu tian xi that was about how he travelled to meet Degens other students. They practiced forms together including luohan so I assume Zhu Tian Xi used the same form. It is of course possible that Zhu tian xi may have learned both 1 and 2 as above.

In my opinion 1 is the best luohan quan. 2 has perghaps more useful applications but 1 has more character. And it has the twisted roots stance which is awesome.

The book by shi yong wen is just called 'Shao lin si luo han quan' . On the first page is an old photo of Shi De Gen.

永文-YongWen

Yes, I have that book, it is reissued by Zhu Tien Xi. Same drawings.
Well, Zhang shi jie's video follows the book exactly, no changes other than that it ends much sooner.

[Sal Canzonieri]

its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that "daluohanquan". the one master deyang does is also called "old frame", laojia luohanquan of 36 postures total. it is practiced in ven. suxi's lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under.

although ven. suyun's disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like a shorter version of that, so they share similar layout and sequences. :)

in fact, according to master deyang, first there were the neigong sets. from luohan shibashou came the 36 posture luohan boxing set, which today is called "xiaoluohan" or "laojia luohan". then there came six roads of "daluohanquan", and the enormous system of shaolin luohanquan thus evolved, complete with weapon sets as well.

I did research on this set and also Russbo did as well, and the Laojia set is indeed different and also one of the very early sets, before the Daluohan Quan material.

[Sal Canzonieri]

not sure that this is "shi deyang's" version. i've seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i'm not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)

I learned this before I had the Shaolin Encyclopedia and it was done exactly like in Deqian's Encyclopedia. So, I was happy to see that. Then when I saw Deyang's version i was very confused. Someone decided to change it, I don't know why.

Well, the abbott is researching all the forms with the countryside practitioners (the old guys) and releasing books on the definitive versions. I have been getting most of them as they come out. His series is called A Compendium of Shaolin Quan

Also, a huge 2 volume work, thousands of pages, a Compendium of Shaolin Folk Boxing, is just out by one of the Liu brothers of Dengfeng that researched hundreds of the forms and compared how the Shaolin monks do the forms to the way the forms are done by the old folk Henan countryside guys.

Together these two efforts are revealing the original way the forms were done.

The abbott has a book on San Lu Luohan Quan that is completely ancient looking and far from today's junk.
His Xiao and Da Hong Quan were great, many corrections were made in parts that I have always questioned why. I think that they had found someone in Shaanxi that was doing the forms that oldest way and they learned from there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@LFJ

Hmm, ok.

The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.

I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
.

Yeah, the inaccuracy of the Shaolin encyclopedia had prompted the abbot to revise the forms with the folk masters and also for the new huge Shaolin Folk compendium that just came out. See my previous post.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.

but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.

of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.

when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak? :)

Well, its not done that way by the folk traditions and it is not done that way by old teachers here in US neither.

The changes mess up the integrity of the form, as far as I am concerned.

The secret to this form is that it is very much like Ba Gua Zhuang and doing the form the way it is done in Shaolin Encylcopedia (in my opinion the 18 Hands sets are the few accurate things in it) and by these others it follows with the movements in Ba Gua Zhuang sets pretty exactly.
it makes total sense to do movements that way, Deyang's video version destroys the flow and the applications. there are neck breaking applications that can't be done with the changes.

[Sal Canzonieri]

why do you group these two separately with different names?

these are exactly the same set. especially the second xiaoluohanquan video posted. it is exactly the same as the luohanquan yilu set performed by zhang shijie, and even says it is the first road in a series of 18, taught by ven. shi degen.

Hmm, left out a transition sentence saying that Shi degen's Yi Lu is sometimes called Xiao Luohan Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@LFJ

Yes, I was thinking of ShanXi not Shaanxi. I am personally most leaning towards this style being from wutai shan.

shaanxi... not as famous for kung fu.

I'll go to wutai anyway, hears they have some interesting bits of shaolin kung fu in the temples there.

But the search continues. I'll see what I can find out about shaanxi hong quan.


@Shaolin1

The form you learned is the third of three common luohan quans. I've never seen it called xiao luohan, but these names don't really matter. In the books by Tagou which outline all 3 major versions of luohan quan, this is referred to as er lo luohan or refined luohan. THe original form stops at the contemplation of buddha stance (sword fingers poining to temples) then does tong bei quans end kicking sequence (you all know the one). A newer version has some extra moves added to extend the form to competition length. THis is actually by far the most taught luohan quan. If you ask to learn luohan quan most schools only practice this version.

SHAANXI is where Shaolin Hong Quan originated, at least the version that reached Shaolin via Li Sou.

Their KF is one of the most difficult to practice, they also preserved a lot of old Shaolin sets that Shaolin later lost, especially all the Monkey and Monkey Staff sets.

Shaanxi was considered the gateway into China and from where most long fist originates.

(not counting the yellow river long first from the Henan Da Hong Quan - Big Swan or Vast Fist)

[Sal Canzonieri]

They're in pinyin, so they're almost useless unless you have a similar set. We published the Chinese characters in the original article, but it would take me days to plug all those in (and the issue is so old that we don't have that file as text anymore). If you want the characters, you'll have to pick up the back issue. It's Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications in our 1998 Oct/Nov issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=87).

1. Fu zi gong shou
2. Huai zhong bao yuei (fan zhang)
3. Bai hu xi lian
4. Ni lib a cong
5. Sahng bu tui dao qiang
6. Shang bu liang shou]
7. Ying mian bei zhang (bang zhang)
8. Shuang shou zha qian jin (you beng zhou)
9. Beng zhou lu shi (zhou beng zhou)
10. Jie shou kan zhang
11. Xian ren zhai qie
12. Meng hu zhuang shen
13. Puo xin zhou
14. Zhuan sehn beng zhou
15. Zhuan shen jin jiao jian
16. Xiao hou qiang gua
17. Lao hu gui shan
18. Xian ren gui dong

thanks. i think I posted all the english and pinyin names for all 8 of the Shaolin 18 Hands sets, I think I posted it a few years ago, it must be in the archives.
If I find it on my hard drive I will post it again.

[RenDaHai]

@sal

Cool, do you have any info on these new books?

Liu brothers, you mean Tagou?

I will have to get hold of these new books. You say the ones by the Abbot? are they the shaolin ones that would be on sale inside the new shaolin gift shop (inside the temple), the ones in little yellow books?

Do you have any more info? If so I will have to make a trip to dengfeng in the next week to pick some up.

By the way, I think you are correct about Zhang shi Jie's luohan quan being the one Zhu tian xi practices. I tried to order the book but it is hong kong published, they don't actually sell it in china :-( However I saw some video of his students doing 4 different luohan quans. The other luohan quans contained a lot of movements from Pao quan. I can only assume my form is the er lo. It's a delicate subject to question my teacher over (comparing his zhu tian xis forms).

However something very confusing, the extra luohan quans I saw by Tian xi students were totally different from the 9 forms of Luohan quan by Liu Zhen Hai (also a student of Degen). Also I have since seen my teachers version of yi lu luohan. It contains the same moves, but with some extra, but it is in a completely different character and tempo. It looks a lot more like luohan (complete with facial expressions and the Tiger taming posture not found in others). Still the Yi lu and Er lo are the two main Luohan quans but 3 lo and beyond seem utterly inconsistent. I would love to see that new book you said. Could you desribe the opening postures at all?

Good info, thanks.

[RenDaHai]

@Sal

On the books any ISBN numbers you have for any current books would be really useful, then I could order them here. (if they have them, I know the small shaolin books don't generally).

Thanks

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh yeah,

About the 'lao jia' luohan quan that Deyang does....

I still can't accept that this is an older version....All my experience in forms points to this being an abbreviation. Can anyone cite any info pertaining to this form (other than because Deyang Shi told you so) THat leads you to beleive it is an older version?

I think it is safe to say that it is merely one of the oldest abbreviations.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal

On the books any ISBN numbers you have for any current books would be really useful, then I could order them here. (if they have them, I know the small shaolin books don't generally).

Thanks

Compendium of Traditional Shaolin style martal arts:
Title: 伝統少林武術套路集成(上下)
Price: 43200 (~US$411.43) This exchange rate is incorrect, it is much cheaper than this!
Product ID.: CTSL292233
Author: 劉海超 - Liú Hǎi Chāo
Publisher: 河南人民出版
Cover: 精装
Size: 16開
Pages: 2046
Date: 2008年11月
ISBN: 7215062600
ISBN13: 9787215062603

A link to Shaolin Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books:

http://www.frelax.com/cgilocal/enitem.cgi?db=book&ty=id&id=ELRQ261619

[Sal Canzonieri]

@sal

Cool, do you have any info on these new books?

Liu brothers, you mean Tagou?

I will have to get hold of these new books. You say the ones by the Abbot? are they the shaolin ones that would be on sale inside the new shaolin gift shop (inside the temple), the ones in little yellow books?

Do you have any more info? If so I will have to make a trip to dengfeng in the next week to pick some up.

By the way, I think you are correct about Zhang shi Jie's luohan quan being the one Zhu tian xi practices. I tried to order the book but it is hong kong published, they don't actually sell it in china :-( However I saw some video of his students doing 4 different luohan quans. The other luohan quans contained a lot of movements from Pao quan. I can only assume my form is the er lo. It's a delicate subject to question my teacher over (comparing his zhu tian xis forms).

However something very confusing, the extra luohan quans I saw by Tian xi students were totally different from the 9 forms of Luohan quan by Liu Zhen Hai (also a student of Degen). Also I have since seen my teachers version of yi lu luohan. It contains the same moves, but with some extra, but it is in a completely different character and tempo. It looks a lot more like luohan (complete with facial expressions and the Tiger taming posture not found in others). Still the Yi lu and Er lo are the two main Luohan quans but 3 lo and beyond seem utterly inconsistent. I would love to see that new book you said. Could you desribe the opening postures at all?

Good info, thanks.

Liu Hai Chao wrote the 2000+ page compendium.

Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books are the yellow ones, with his photo on the cover, all the covers are the same, just the titles are different and the thickness of the pages.

YesAsia.com has all three of Zhu Tian Xi's books. The Shi De Gen Luohan book is identical to the original published version that came out decades ago. They only added some photos at the end of Zhu Tian Xi doing postures.
If you get a hold of this book then you will have the complete 85 posture Yi Lu set.

Who the heck knows what all these Er Lu sets are.

I've been told that the 9 Luohan forms by Liu Zhen Hai are rather modernly created, except for the first set of the 9.

Shi Yong Xin's book on San Lu Luohan Quan is very interesting, it is unlike any other Luohan set I have seen. it is not an abbreviation of another set or amalgamation. It is supposed to be a form that is practiced in the countryside by the people that do Rou Quan as well.
Take a look at it in the Shaolin gift shop and you tell me what you think.

The original Luohan sets developed by Monk Jue Yuan (with Bai Yu feng and Li sou) were developed out of their experiments developing their new Wu Quan style. I would think that these sets would indeed show some Pao Quan in them, based on the fact that Pao Quan sets were originally part of the Hong Quan system, they are Hong Quan sets, they were separate and called Pao Quan much later. But during the 1400-1500s, they were all part of the Hong Quan system that Li Sou practiced.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Sal,

Thanks very much for the ISBN,

I ordered the book by Liu Hai Chao today at the nearest bookstore. It is expensive, but it sounds good. I should get it within the week.

Sad as it may sound to some but I feel like a 7 Y.o kid a week before christmas, I will be very excited to see this book and read what I can of it!

As to the books in Shaolin, it is about 3 hours from here, I will go there when i get a free day (and good weather). I should visit this year anyway.

Oh and I did hear that one of the older sequences of luohan quan was 'Hushanzi men Luohan 18 shou' From the hushanzi school. I picked up this form a few years ago but didn't pay it much attention at the time. Don't really remember it now. It is extremely unremarkable. Literally xu bu block gong bu punch, xu bu block gong bu punch. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate this kind of form. Shaolin Xin Yi is also a little like this, except it has good symmetry. Hushanzi luohan is very boring. Of course i may have learned a bad version, I have no way of knowing.

Don't know much about Hushanzi men.... anyone?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

Thanks very much for the ISBN,

I ordered the book by Liu Hai Chao today at the nearest bookstore. It is expensive, but it sounds good. I should get it within the week.

Sad as it may sound to some but I feel like a 7 Y.o kid a week before christmas, I will be very excited to see this book and read what I can of it!

As to the books in Shaolin, it is about 3 hours from here, I will go there when i get a free day (and good weather). I should visit this year anyway.

Oh and I did hear that one of the older sequences of luohan quan was 'Hushanzi men Luohan 18 shou' From the hushanzi school. I picked up this form a few years ago but didn't pay it much attention at the time. Don't really remember it now. It is extremely unremarkable. Literally xu bu block gong bu punch, xu bu block gong bu punch. Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate this kind of form. Shaolin Xin Yi is also a little like this, except it has good symmetry. Hushanzi luohan is very boring. Of course i may have learned a bad version, I have no way of knowing.

Don't know much about Hushanzi men.... anyone?

Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form ? that? I have never heard that this is the oldest Luohan Quan set.
Well, being that Luohan Quan was NOT called Luohan Quan when it first originated, that is possible then.
We know that the 18 Shou sets are the oldest sets, existing before Luohan Quan.
18 Shou are from Ming dynasty. Luohan Quan's material comes from then, but the sets I think were developed during the Qing dynasty. I think the style (as derived from Shaolin Wu Quan of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan and Li Sou) movements and postures were free form and then various people developed them into specific sets.
Hence, Shi Degen's Luohan Quan is different from other lineages.

The Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form is found on page 248 of the new version of the Shaolin Encyclopedia. it is also found in the past two versions (the old 2 volume and the old 4 volume versions).
I have the originally Republic era booklet of this form.
I have always thought this form to be strange and boring and nonsensical.
But, it is not so elementary as you state, what you describe is the same as the Horse Stance Luohan Quan set, which I have documentation for, and it is REALLY boring, I can't bother doing it again after I learned it. Makes me fall asleep, I just use the movements when stretching and so on.

But the Hu Shan Zi Men 18 hands Arhat form looks like some kind of weird ballroom dancing set! Very rounded and weird.
Anyone with one of the versions of the Shaolin Encyclopedia take a look at it and see for yourself.

What have you read that talks about this form's history? How is it the oldest?
I'd like to know more about this.

[RenDaHai]

Oh, Plus I did confirm that my Hushanzi men Luohan quan was indeed the same as YongWen Da Shi practices.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I revised my video list and corrected some things, see link:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=961536&postcount=30


Also, I just got the 2 volume 2,046 page Shaolin Compendium by Liu Zhen Hai and it turned out to be different than what I was told it was.
It is a revised version of the 5 Tagou school books. The forms have been redrawn with a Shaolin monk instead of a goofy guy in a geri karate uniform.
There has been further research done by Liu Zhen Hai by conferring with his father and others on the movements and postures of the sets.
So, if you haven't gotten the 5 volume Tagou books, these are all 5 in one fat 2 volume version, with all the corrections made to the sets. Also, the book is both in English and Chinese, with the English appearing much improved (unless that is my imagination, since I haven't read the 5 Tagou books in years).
There is a nice forward by Shi Suxi and by Shi Song Xin.

One thing that disturbs me is that the forms are different in this lineage than what I have seen in my own research.

What I really like is the series of Shaolin books that Abbot Shi Song Xin is publishing, he is doing much research with many Henan Shaolin folk masters as to the origin of the movements and comparing and contrasting amongst the masters till they reach a consensus of what the original movements were.
The books are bilingual as well, and the english goes into meticulous detail on each and every movement involved for each postures. I ordered the rest of the set the other day and I will be up to date and looking forward to the Abbot's publication of more rountines books.

So far there is available:

Rou Quan yi lu (36 postures set)
Rou Quan er lu
Xiao Hong
Da Hong Quan sets 1-3
Pao Quan
Luohan San Lu
Mei Hua Quan
Chang Pu Xin Yi Men
Xiao Tong Bi
Tong Bi yi lu

I highly recommend these books, they are not holding back on the information and as far as I know, they are not marking the forms to make them incorrect.
There seems to be a genuine effort going on to research and preserve the original movements for these routines.
I heard that over 300 routines are being reviewed and documented.

This was done in response to complaints by scholars and researchers that the Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou books all have errors in the routines shown.

[RenDaHai]

Went to Shaolin Si today.

I went specifically to the shop to get the yellow books.

I went straight to the 'San lu luohan quan' that Sal was talking about.

WOW!! This is literally the best shaolin form ever. Most people who look at it may see a boring form, but for me this set is literally the quintessence of shaolin fist. It was perfect. It has all the standard moves (xie xing, dan bian, qi xing, cloud hands, xuan feng jiao*2, tiger comes out of cave plus many more) and it even has the full lying down luohan shui jiao..... twice.

I was so excited looking at this luohan quan that I asked the shopkeeper where one could find shi yan zhuang (guy in the pictures). To my surprise she said he was there right now, and she called him on the phone! So I went ot the shaolin Cafe and had tea with him and long story short he said I could come along any time and study Sanlu luohan quan. As soon as i have some free time I will go straight there.

Literally the best luohan quan ever. It is NOT from 18 luohan system as the forms we have been talking about above, but it fits in perfectly with tongbi, pao quan, xiao hong, da hong, changhuxinyimen and the other great shaolin forms.


Also got the Changhuxinyimen book. COmpletely different to Tagous, it uses hammers instead of fists, fits in with the other forms much better. Plus the xiao tongbi (yi lu tongbi) is amazing. Great books.

So excited to learn this luohan quan!!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Went to Shaolin Si today.

I went specifically to the shop to get the yellow books.

I went straight to the 'San lu luohan quan' that Sal was talking about.

WOW!! This is literally the best shaolin form ever. Most people who look at it may see a boring form, but for me this set is literally the quintessence of shaolin fist. It was perfect. It has all the standard moves (xie xing, dan bian, qi xing, cloud hands, xuan feng jiao*2, tiger comes out of cave plus many more) and it even has the full lying down luohan shui jiao..... twice.

I was so excited looking at this luohan quan that I asked the shopkeeper where one could find shi yan zhuang (guy in the pictures). To my surprise she said he was there right now, and she called him on the phone! So I went ot the shaolin Cafe and had tea with him and long story short he said I could come along any time and study Sanlu luohan quan. As soon as i have some free time I will go straight there.

Literally the best luohan quan ever. It is NOT from 18 luohan system as the forms we have been talking about above, but it fits in perfectly with tongbi, pao quan, xiao hong, da hong, changhuxinyimen and the other great shaolin forms.


Also got the Changhuxinyimen book. COmpletely different to Tagous, it uses hammers instead of fists, fits in with the other forms much better. Plus the xiao tongbi (yi lu tongbi) is amazing. Great books.

So excited to learn this luohan quan!!!

Wow, that's very exciting!

Can you find out the history of this San Lu Luohan Quan set?

Where does it come from? Where does it fit in with the rest of the Luohan Quan sets?
Did it come from Shi Degen or from Miao? Or elsewhere?

(i'm going to do a thread on the Xin Yi related sets once I get my bearings on them)

[RenDaHai]

When I meet with Yan Zhuang shifu again I'll find out as much as I can about it.

THis luohan quan is definately not from Degen da shi. Its not the 18 luohan, it uses different basics. But it is an awesome form.

He said er lo has 108 movements and yi lu is short. I'll find out more and see if I cant study all 3. I have a suspicion that his er lo may be the long set in the encyclopedia (deqian).

[Sal Canzonieri]

When I meet with Yan Zhuang shifu again I'll find out as much as I can about it.

THis luohan quan is definately not from Degen da shi. Its not the 18 luohan, it uses different basics. But it is an awesome form.

He said er lo has 108 movements and yi lu is short. I'll find out more and see if I cant study all 3. I have a suspicion that his er lo may be the long set in the encyclopedia (deqian).

Hmm, that long set in the encyclopedia is pretty short compared to Liu Zhen Hai's Luohan Quan, that's 108 postures and many more sub-movements within the postures.
Time and again, Liu Zhenhai's sets turn out to be the most complete and detailed.

There's only three classic Luohan Quan sets (not counting the 18 hands sets and the various lesser known sets scattered through the volumes) in the Shaolin Encyclopedia:

There's a short Luohan Quan set (doesn't match anything else seen on videos)
and a longer Luohan Quan set (this one matches Shi Degen's Yi Lu set)
in the older versions of the books.
The new version has the Er Lu Luohan Quan set that everybody does now (that one you said is a modernized set).

The real 108 Da Luohan is not shown.

[RenDaHai]

@Sal

Hey! I have found our Luohan Quan san lo set.

I am preparing to meet Yan Zhuang to learn that san lu luohan quan in yongxins yellow book, I'm quite familiar with the form now.

If you have the liuzhenhai performance VCD, put in disc A and look at his Luohan QUan 6 lu...... ITS the SAME form!!

Not quite, shorter, but with so many moves in roughly the same sequence that it must come from the same set.

Once again LiuZhenHai has everything. The more i see his luohan quan sets, the more moves from the other sets I see included.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal

Hey! I have found our Luohan Quan san lo set.

I am preparing to meet Yan Zhuang to learn that san lu luohan quan in yongxins yellow book, I'm quite familiar with the form now.

If you have the liuzhenhai performance VCD, put in disc A and look at his Luohan QUan 6 lu...... ITS the SAME form!!

Not quite, shorter, but with so many moves in roughly the same sequence that it must come from the same set.

Once again LiuZhenHai has everything. The more i see his luohan quan sets, the more moves from the other sets I see included.

That's great. The yellow book is good preparation before getting the actual hands on lessons.

I don't have the Liu zhenhai performance VCD, do you mean the one that shows all his vcds on one performance VCD? I haven't been able to find a copy of it in the USA.
But, I have almost all of his VCDs anyways.
So, I can check the Luohan #6 VCD and see.

I was, when I felt better and had more time, going to review all 7 of his Luohan VCDs and post about it here on which routines they are in comparison to everyone else's videos.

Thanks for the tip!

There are two other sets that Liu Zhenhai has that he never made VCDs of that are very interesting and rare.
One is the Shaolin Ape-Monkey set, which is very much like his Rou Quan set VCD and one is the Shaolin 5 Elements Linking Fist set!
That set is really crazy and interesting, it is only 18 postures.
It repeats itself halfway through.

It really looks like a Shaolin version of the Xingyi Five Elements Linking form set!
Which is nuts! Can it be that shaolin had this set first and Xingyi founders borrowed from this set?
It is just about all the movements, just done with a total Shaolin way of doing the moves, much more primitive and ancient compare to how Xingyi Quan has further developed it.

[RenDaHai]

A shaolin Wu xing lian huan quan??

That would be really fascinating...

How did you find out about this, is there a book?

I'd love to know more about it. Wuxing is almost a complete system in its own right.


On the shaolin sets, i watched them all a lot. They are all short, the 'san lo' in the books is mainly liuzhenhais 6lo with some moves from 4 and 5.

[Sal Canzonieri]

A shaolin Wu xing lian huan quan??

That would be really fascinating...

How did you find out about this, is there a book?

I'd love to know more about it. Wuxing is almost a complete system in its own right.


On the shaolin sets, i watched them all a lot. They are all short, the 'san lo' in the books is mainly liuzhenhais 6lo with some moves from 4 and 5.

Yeah, when you see this set, you realize some things:
1 - Pi Quan / Split / Metal = Tongbi Quan
2 - Heng Quan / Horizontal / Earth = Hong Quan
3 - Pao Quan / Explode / Fire = Pao Quan (naturally)

In this set, what Shaolin styles Beng Quan (shoot / wood) and Zhuan Quan (drill /Water) correlate to I am still pondering.
They are found in the set though.

Strangely, I have seen two different versions of Xingyi Wuxing Lianhuan Quan and one of them is very much like this Shaolin set instead of the standard way of doing it like the modern Hebei practitioners.

[LFJ]

If you have the liuzhenhai performance VCD, put in disc A and look at his Luohan QUan 6 lu...... ITS the SAME form!!

just had a look at those sets again, and noticed the luohanquan 7 lu is basically the same as the dameihuaquan set that everyone does. have a look at the moves and sequences. its the same, but has different moves at the end, and doesnt do the "coffee grinder" sweep. :) actually it ends short before all of that stuff in meihuaquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

just had a look at those sets again, and noticed the luohanquan 7 lu is basically the same as the dameihuaquan set that everyone does. have a look at the moves and sequences. its the same, but has different moves at the end, and doesnt do the "coffee grinder" sweep. :) actually it ends short before all of that stuff in meihuaquan.

ha, that's funny. I didn't think that set looked like standard Luohan and I ignored watching it to the end.

Well, in doing my research for my book, I came across a lot of history on the Meihua Zhuang style.
it was developed outside of Shaolin. Meihua Zhuang first started out as folk Muslim Chinese martial arts from the region where Shandong, Henan, and Hebei all intersect. At some point, they had merged with practitioners of Shaolin Wu Quan system, which includes Luohan Quan in it, TZ Chang Quan, Hong Quan. Thus, Meihua Zhuang become an internal martial art.
By the 1600s, the style was incorporated back into Shaolin, where they adopted a lot of its ideas to develop their Shaolin Liu He Quan style, Shaolin Mei Hua and also the use of poles to stand on when practicing routines for advanced training.

So, in a convoluted way, Mei Hua Quan is very much related to Luohan Quan.
Perhaps, Liu Zhenhai has an early version of this set, before it became merged with Mei Hua Quan? The Da Mei Hua Quan set was developed during the Qing Dynasty, hundreds of years after Luohan Quan was created.

[Sal Canzonieri]

By the way, speaking of weird Luohan Quan:

Liu Zhenhai and others in Dengfeng area have a very rare to see WEIRD Luohan 18 Hands set, which they said came direct from Li Sou. It is 18 postures long, with 44 movements (counting the opening and closing postures).
It is not like anything I have ever seen before. It has finger poking movements, foot poking movements, throws, takedowns, trips, and strange postures.

[RenDaHai]

Hmm? That luohan 18 shou sounds interesting....

Yeah I noticed that 7lo is the first part of meihua quan. Funnily enough if you look at the Da luohan in tagous books, the long one, the very last section with phoenix spreads its wings-yaobu-housaotui-3 pixinzhang-xuanfengjiao This whole little section is from meihua quan.

I assume like sal that this may be a luohan quan thing and that it was later incorperated or named Meihua quan. The strange thing is is that shaolin Meihua men is actually a large menpai system, All i have ever seen are the two dengfeng forms, the one mentioned and another set that is mainly ditang moves, sweeps and such. I think there must be many more forms of Meihua we don't get to see and perhaps this set is a fill i...

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm? That luohan 18 shou sounds interesting....

Yeah I noticed that 7lo is the first part of meihua quan. Funnily enough if you look at the Da luohan in tagous books, the long one, the very last section with phoenix spreads its wings-yaobu-housaotui-3 pixinzhang-xuanfengjiao This whole little section is from meihua quan.

I assume like sal that this may be a luohan quan thing and that it was later incorperated or named Meihua quan. The strange thing is is that shaolin Meihua men is actually a large menpai system, All i have ever seen are the two dengfeng forms, the one mentioned and another set that is mainly ditang moves, sweeps and such. I think there must be many more forms of Meihua we don't get to see and perhaps this set is a fill i...

I think that we have two things going on here as Shaolin Meihua is concerned.

1 - There is the Shaolin Meihua Quan (Xiao and Da) that was developed during the later Qing Dynasty as part of the "Classic" 10 (or so) sets of Shaolin Quan.
In this case, Meihua Quan simple means Five Flowers of Boxing, and the sets are composed of movements from Luohan, Hong, Pao, Tongbi, and Chang Quan. This includes the very similar Zhao Yang and Chao Yang Quan sets.

2 - Then there is more ancient Meihua Zhuang style and its absorption into Shaolin before the 1600s or much earlier. This corpus of material is extensive.


The Ditang Meihua Quan is historically interesting, in that folk Meihua has ditang as part of their routines. AND< this comes from it's merger with Shaolin Wu Quan, as bai Yufeng has developed a series of ditang five animals sets (which I have section about in my forthcoming book) and these sets have been discussed previously in this forum between me and "R. Shaolin" or Rik Zak.

[LFJ]

here is a version of the set done a bit differently than how most people do it. there are many familiar luohanquan postures, as well as paoquan and taizu changquan techniques in it.
http://u.youku.com/user_show/id_UMTU2NTAwMjg4.html

this person also has a taizu changquan video there, and a zhaoyangquan. the zhaoyang set is the same set but done quite a bit differently than master deyang's.

have a look. :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

here is a version of the set done a bit differently than how most people do it. there are many familiar luohanquan postures, as well as paoquan and taizu changquan techniques in it.
http://u.youku.com/user_show/id_UMTU2NTAwMjg4.html

this person also has a taizu changquan video there, and a zhaoyangquan. the zhaoyang set is the same set but done quite a bit differently than master deyang's.

have a look. :)

Oh this guy, I just found his TZ video two days ago on the net.

It seems he's a student, he still has some rough spots and is doing some parts too externally (especially in his TZ Chang set).

AND< as you say, HOW he is doing the forms is interesting and pretty cool.
I wonder who his teacher is? Whoever he is, his teacher taught him a distinct way of doing the postures and movements.

But, Here he is doing a modern wushu long fist set, not traditional at all: 少林三路长拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE5OTE3NTgw.html

Hmm, would be weird if he is doing wushu versions of the sets and they look more "traditional" than some people's traditional????

[LFJ]

was just reading the old encyclopedia on the xiao and da meihuaquan sets.

the history on the xiaomeihuaquan set tells a story of abbot fuju's disciple jueda (觉大) in the song dynasty practicing luohan shibashou in front of a winter blossom tree before the abbot's chamber. then fuju explained to him allegorically how a gongfu practitioner should be like the blossom.

after listening jueda stood contemplating for a while until he was fired up with inspiration and began training extra hard but not following any of the previous boxing sets he had studied with his shifu. instead he just let it flow.

another monk saw him training and asked what it was called. jueda thought for a moment then said it should be called "meihuaquan" (plum blossom boxing). and so jueda's boxing set was then named shaolin meihuaquan, or jueda meihuaquan.

originally it had 96 postures, but in the yuan dynasty it was simplified into 29 postures by jinnaluowang, and then called "xiaomeihuaquan".

the set was written down following the demonstration of shi yongyang.

here's the only video i've seen of it:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

dameihuaquan,

for this set, the encyclopedia reads:
"大梅花拳是清末民初的少林寺僧会司恒林大和尚，在原小梅花拳的基础上，结合攻防的须要增编而创，共54势， 比小梅花拳多了二十五势"

it says abbot henglin in the early 1900's combined attack and defense skills based on the xiaomeihuaquan set to expand it into a larger set of 54 postures, 24 more than the xiaomeihuaquan set. this new set was named dameihuaquan.

so according to the encyclopedia, dameihuaquan is abbot henglin's creation, and not actually an older set.

its interesting then why liu zhenhai's 7 road luohanquan has this dameihuaquan as the 7th set, grouped with and called luohanquan. that is if the encyclopedia is to be trusted about henglin's hand in the set's creation.

[Sal Canzonieri]

was just reading the old encyclopedia on the xiao and da meihuaquan sets.

the history on the xiaomeihuaquan set tells a story of abbot fuju's disciple jueda (觉大) in the song dynasty practicing luohan shibashou in front of a winter blossom tree before the abbot's chamber. then fuju explained to him allegorically how a gongfu practitioner should be like the blossom.

after listening jueda stood contemplating for a while until he was fired up with inspiration and began training extra hard but not following any of the previous boxing sets he had studied with his shifu. instead he just let it flow.

another monk saw him training and asked what it was called. jueda thought for a moment then said it should be called "meihuaquan" (plum blossom boxing). and so jueda's boxing set was then named shaolin meihuaquan, or jueda meihuaquan.

originally it had 96 postures, but in the yuan dynasty it was simplified into 29 postures by jinnaluowang, and then called "xiaomeihuaquan".

the set was written down following the demonstration of shi yongyang.

here's the only video i've seen of it:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

dameihuaquan,

for this set, the encyclopedia reads:
"大梅花拳是清末民初的少林寺僧会司恒林大和尚，在原小梅花拳的基础上，结合攻防的须要增编而创，共54势， 比小梅花拳多了二十五势"

it says abbot henglin in the early 1900's combined attack and defense skills based on the xiaomeihuaquan set to expand it into a larger set of 54 postures, 24 more than the xiaomeihuaquan set. this new set was named dameihuaquan.

so according to the encyclopedia, dameihuaquan is abbot henglin's creation, and not actually an older set.

its interesting then why liu zhenhai's 7 road luohanquan has this dameihuaquan as the 7th set, grouped with and called luohanquan. that is if the encyclopedia is to be trusted about henglin's hand in the set's creation.

Agreed, that's really strange.
Thanks for bringing this up and doing a further investigation into this. Much appreciated!

I knew that Da Meihua Quan was a late Qing creation.

I haven't read through those books since I first got them, except recently to compare routines with Tagou books and videos.

All research shows that the 18 Luohan Hands existed before Luohan Quan developed, which is to say that it was the material that Jue Yuan worked from during his "experiments" with Bai Yufeng and Li Sou.
So, I would think that, though "free form", 18 Luohan was still one of the base materials that Xiao Meihua Quan was developed from.

But, Da Meihua is essentially according to this, an expanded version of Xiao Meihua Quan.

Maybe Liu Zhehai just made a mistake? Or, he felt that there was so much Luohan Quan in the Da Meihua Quan set that it might as well be considered a Luohan Quan set in the long run?
Wow, what a question to be able to ask Liu Zhenhai somehow.

I have each version of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, I can, when I get the chance, see if this text has changed or not in the later two editions.

Hmm, still, neither Xiao nor Da Meihua Quan is much like the Meihua Zhuang style that Shaolin also practiced by the 1600s, with much different sets. They are entirely unrelated except in name only (tons of other unrelated styles do sets named Meihua Quan too).

[LFJ]

All research shows that the 18 Luohan Hands existed before Luohan Quan developed, which is to say that it was the material that Jue Yuan worked from during his "experiments" with Bai Yufeng and Li Sou.
So, I would think that, though "free form", 18 Luohan was still one of the base materials that Xiao Meihua Quan was developed from.

yes, the record says that jueda was practicing luohan shibashou when fuju inspired him with the plum blossom.


Maybe Liu Zhehai just made a mistake? Or, he felt that there was so much Luohan Quan in the Da Meihua Quan set that it might as well be considered a Luohan Quan set in the long run?
Wow, what a question to be able to ask Liu Zhenhai somehow.

i dont know, but sometimes i've seen performance videos have the wrong name on the wrong set. it was likely the editors fault. but in this case, there was no meihuaquan performance at all on the vcd anyway.

also.. the video i posted for xiaomeihuaquan seems different from the encyclopedia. they are sometimes hard to follow though, unless you already know or have seen the sets. but it looks like there are some ditang techniques in the encyclopedia.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes, the record says that jueda was practicing luohan shibashou when fuju inspired him with the plum blossom.



i dont know, but sometimes i've seen performance videos have the wrong name on the wrong set. it was likely the editors fault. but in this case, there was no meihuaquan performance at all on the vcd anyway.

also.. the video i posted for xiaomeihuaquan seems different from the encyclopedia. they are sometimes hard to follow though, unless you already know or have seen the sets. but it looks like there are some ditang techniques in the encyclopedia.

plus, some effort was made to make the 7th Lu Luohan Quan set "different" than the Meihua set, by shortening the ending. So, what does that mean?

[RenDaHai]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen. Usually you get a lot of pu bu kicks, and scorpion whips tail etc.

I have seen 3 very distinct versions of the ditang xiao mei hua, all much more interesting than this.

On to LiuZhenHais luohan 7 lo.

Liu zhen hais version is very short, only the first half of meihua quan. I would say that if Da Meihua is a modern set what is most likely is that it was originally a Luohan set which got a few moves added to the end of it by someone (it is more common to modify an existing form than to create a new one from scratch). The first half is essentially all luohan quan moves anyway.

[LFJ]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen. Usually you get a lot of pu bu kicks, and scorpion whips tail etc.

I have seen 3 very distinct versions of the ditang xiao mei hua, all much more interesting than this.

i guess you are talking about this set by shi guosong, actually called "ditang" meihuaquan, but sometimes xiaomeihuaquan or just meihuaquan:

http://v.ku6.com/show/ugIChm169IqM0CZG.html

the video i posted of xiaomeihuaquan matches the encyclopedia rather closely, except it appears to have the ground technique done by shi guosong at :30 into the clip there, which the guy in yellow doesnt do.

also, they share a lot of the same sequences if you watch closely enough, from the beginning to midway through almost. so they appear related. but the xiaomeihuaquan is not a ditang set.

it has big sections of datongbiquan, one right at the beginning, then follows a ditang meihuaquan sequence, and has part of the opening sequence to the laojia hongquan set at the end.

[LFJ]

I would say that if Da Meihua is a modern set what is most likely is that it was originally a Luohan set which got a few moves added to the end of it by someone (it is more common to modify an existing form than to create a new one from scratch). The first half is essentially all luohan quan moves anyway.

well, there is also a poem in the encyclopedia that goes along with the history. the poem also tells how abbot henglin used the 29 posture xiaomeihuaquan to create the 54 posture dameihuaquan.

[LFJ]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen.

you apparently have the performance vcd with all the luohanquan sets on it. on that same disc there is shi xingsen demonstrating xiaomeihuaquan. it is almost exactly like the set done by the guy in yellow here, the only difference is stepping forward or backward in some places:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

both of them replace the ditang movement that is in the xiaomeihuaquan set shown in the encyclopedia with the same move (hop into chabu with cranes beak or strike, then unwind into gongbu chongquan).

however, i have seen a chinese magazine article that had this xiaomeihuaquan step by step with photos and combat applications that included the ditang technique and its application. its the same weird move shi guosong does in the ditang meihuaquan just after "throwing sand" in mabu where you lie on the ground and stomp over your own leg.

by the way,

shi xingsen is young (late thirties) and still teaches in his own school. he knows a lot of rare sets from shi degen's lineage and narrated those performance vcds, and also did many of the instructionals. if not liu zhenhai himself, xingsen would be a good guy to talk to about the sets. particularly to clear up the dameihuaquan being named luohanquan 7lu in that clip.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Looking through my Shaolin manuals, I have a set called Xiao Jia Shi Ba Luohan Quan - Small Frame 18 Luohan Fist.

It's pretty cool, for some reason it shares a lot of the postures from the Luohan 7th Lu / Da Meihua Quan you are talking about, but in a completely different order of sequence, like if it was totally rearranged. Most of the set though is like a Shi Dejian kind of set.
There are 18-19 postures total (with more movements within).

[mawali]

But, Here he is doing a modern wushu long fist set, not traditional at all: 少林三路长拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE5OTE3NTgw.html

Hmm, would be weird if he is doing wushu versions of the sets and they look more "traditional" than some people's traditional????

The version above is similar (for the most part) to wushuchangquan #3 that I learnt about 25 years. Since then, it seems that many forms have become so wushuized that they all seem muddied together for performance purposes.
I realize it is not all like that but even with 'traditional' forms, they are played in a wushu manner that somehow diminishes their value.

Thanks for the great insight you bring along with LFJ's keen sight!

[r.(shaolin)]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
But, Here he is doing a modern wushu long fist set, not traditional at all: 少林三路长拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE5OTE3NTgw.html

Hmm, would be weird if he is doing wushu versions of the sets and they look more "traditional" than some people's traditional????

First of all this form has been been around long before the 1950's when the Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports developed they're standardized sets for modern wushu. My teacher learned this set in the 1920's and his teacher learned it some time in the 1870's. Albeit the set as shown is shorter with a number of combinations and mirrored movements taken out it is basically in tact. In our lineage of Shaolin this set is called Da Hong Chang Quan (Chin.: 大洪長拳). It is considered one of the foundational sets of Shaolin by us.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

First of all this form has been been around long before the 1950's when the Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports developed they're standardized sets for modern wushu. My teacher learned this set in the 1920's and his teacher learned it some time in the 1870's. Albeit the set as shown is shorter with a number of combinations and mirrored movements taken out it is basically in tact. In our lineage of Shaolin this set is called Da Hong Chang Quan (Chin.: 大洪長拳). It is considered one of the foundational sets of Shaolin by us.
r.

Yeah, the Wushu routines were developed from out of real Shaolin sets, abbreviated, and then had some movements from Shandong long fist added in, such as Hua Quan, Cha Quan, and supposedly they used Shaolin Hong Quan sets as a base to start from.

I'd love to see the real version of this famous wushu set. Everyone has learned this set at some point that I know. Me included. It's disjointed and awkward at times, so the complete Shaolin version would obviously solve that. I bet the original version was a great set to practice.

[r.(shaolin)]

?

by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the "group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu", and published texts like "the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing". he was known as the "shaolin boxing king". his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the "young shaolin boxing king" for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.

its the same "zhaoyangquan" in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA

I noticed the Shi Deyang opens and closes this set with a crossed palm yinxiang (印相 ). Because we use this yinxiang at the beginning and closing of all our barehand sets, I would be interested in how Shi Deyang explains this ritual gesture.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA

I noticed the Shi Deyang opens and closes this set with a crossed palm yinxiang (印相 ). Because we use this yinxiang at the beginning and closing of all our barehand sets, I would be interested in how Shi Deyang explains this ritual gesture.

r.

I don't know, but I learned this set, all 8 of the sets in fact, and only this first set opens this way, not a salute, but as the first posture with applications.

The whole opening sequence is a Shaolin-ized way of doing Bagua Zhang's Single Palm Change, by the way.

[LFJ]

same as sal. the first move has an application, then flipping the hands over is another applications, and different posture name.

[r.(shaolin)]

same as sal. the first move has an application, then flipping the hands over is another applications, and different posture name.

If you look a the ending you will note that the sets ends with a defense position.
Then this crossed palm is repeated. If someone knows Shi Deyang it would be worth asking.

r.

[LFJ]

because the crossed palm is the last move.

also at the end the right hand in inside. the opening move has the right hand on the outside first. then its flips to the inside and pushes forward. these are different self-defense applications.

[RenDaHai]

which set are we talking about now?

[Sal Canzonieri]

which set are we talking about now?

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (as shown in Shaolin Encyclopedia and Shi Deyang does in one of his videos)

[LFJ]

another note on the luohanquan 7lu vs dameihuaquan...

also on that performance vcd are three roads of xiaotongbiquan (which i dont recognize, do you?), that is, the first and the third. but for the erlu they used the third road of dahongquan, but starting from gongbu dingzhou. not even from the beginning. and they even used the very same footage that was used for that set on the same vcd.

so i really think it is an editing mistake. like all the forms being mislabeled on the performance vcd by shi deyang. everywhere else that set is dameihuaquan, whether performed by other people, or covered in the shaolin encyc..

all that means is that we havent seen the actual 7th road of those luohanquan sets.

the only way to verify is if someone has seen the instructional vcd on the individual luohanquan sets.
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html

well, he is doing the hubaotou posture on the cover. i wonder what they would say about it during the introduction if in fact it is the dameihuaquan set being taught as 7lu luohanquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

another note on the luohanquan 7lu vs dameihuaquan...

also on that performance vcd are three roads of xiaotongbiquan (which i dont recognize, do you?), that is, the first and the third. but for the erlu they used the third road of dahongquan, but starting from gongbu dingzhou. not even from the beginning. and they even used the very same footage that was used for that set on the same vcd.

so i really think it is an editing mistake. like all the forms being mislabeled on the performance vcd by shi deyang. everywhere else that set is dameihuaquan, whether performed by other people, or covered in the shaolin encyc..

all that means is that we havent seen the actual 7th road of those luohanquan sets.

the only way to verify is if someone has seen the instructional vcd on the individual luohanquan sets.
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html

well, he is doing the hubaotou posture on the cover. i wonder what they would say about it during the introduction if in fact it is the dameihuaquan set being taught as 7lu luohanquan.

I will copy, convert and get it on Youtube so you can look and tell us. Soon as I can get the chance.

Strange, strange, strange.

Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book has really full nice versions of all the Tongbi Quan sets. In this book, Yi Lu Tongbi Quan is all three sets of Xiao and in this book, Er Lu Tongbei is the Da set.

[LFJ]

how about yongxin's book? there is a meihuaquan one.

[Sal Canzonieri]

how about yongxin's book? there is a meihuaquan one.

It is named Mei Hua Quan, and it is a very accurate version of the Da Mei Hua Quan set. It follows the Shaolin encyc. version, but it has transition moves not seen in the drawings.
It's a great book.

I guess I can use it to compare to Luohan 7th Lu, then?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Comparing Shi Yongxin's Da MeiHua Quan book vs other books:

- Totally identical to Liu Zhenhai's version in his Shaolin Da Lu book!

- Pretty much same as Shaolin Encyc, other than facing left or right issues.

- The Tagou books Mei Hua Quan is a very different version of the Da MeiHua Quan set. It kinda pretty much follows the basic order of movements, but it sure is not like the version that is in common to the other 3 books. This version has lots of different moves, more 'wushu-fied if that is possible, and seems simplified and jumbled up in comparison. its was rough and confusing trying to follow along and find my place along the Da Meihua Quan sequence of movements. Sometimes it stayed on track and other times it went far astray.

So, there you go.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I watched the disc with Liu Zhenhai's Luohan 7th Lu and indeed that set shown is the same as the Da Meihua Quan set, most of it anyways, it ends a lot earlier.

Well, this will be baffling until someone can talk to someone from there about it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yi lu = the Lao Luohan that Shi Deyang does (aka 3 section Luohan, Xiao Luohan, etc.)

er lu = ?

san lu = first section of Shi Degen's Luohan Quan Yi Lu set

si lu = ?

wu lu = ?

liu lu = looks like Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan?

Qi lu = Da Mei Hua Quan

Maybe you guys can figure them out, once I get the chance I will post them on YouTube.

[LFJ]

Comparing Shi Yongxin's Da MeiHua Quan book vs other books:

- Totally identical to Liu Zhenhai's version in his Shaolin Da Lu book!

you mean his book shows dameihuaquan as "dameihuaquan", while the video shows dameihuaquan as "luohanquan" 7lu?

or is it again mixed up? at least that would be consistent. and there must be a reason for that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

you mean his book shows dameihuaquan as "dameihuaquan", while the video shows dameihuaquan as "luohanquan" 7lu?

or is it again mixed up? at least that would be consistent. and there must be a reason for that.

Yes, his book shows the routine as simple Mei Hua Quan.
Not as Luohan Quan. His book has two routines under Luohan: a 18 Hands set (weirdest thing I have ever seen) and the elusive Da Luohan Quan (containing the missing ending section that the Tagou books don't have).

His books are the most accurate and best versions of most Shaolin sets.

The videos are all marked and discombobulated in some way or another.
I think the editors got all mixed up.

What's on his Mei Hua Quan vcd? I didn't have that one and just ordered it to look.
It would be weird if it is Da Mei Hua Quan as well!
I hope it is Xiao Mei Hua, or a different Mei Hua Quan, long as it isn't the Da set again.

[LFJ]

i meant liu zhenhai's book. it shows dameihuaquan as "dameihuaquan"?

then that is obviously in conflict with his vcd which shows the set as "luohanquan 7lu", right?

if so, then it was apparently just used as a luohan set to throw people off. :rolleyes:

i dont have the individual vcds, just the performance vcd which has them all. it includes the xiaomeihuaquan set, almost exactly like that one i posted with the guy in yellow.
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

the vcd one is performed by shi xingsen who narrates the performance vcd, and also does it on the individual vcd.

but both that vcd and the other video i posted do it differently than the shaolin encyc. that book has a ditang move in it, which i have also seen in a chinese magazine done that way.

interestingly, these two unrelated videos replace the ditang move with the exact same technique. the little hop behind move done at :20 into the above video.

in the encyc. it is the ditang move done by shi guosong at :30 into the ditang meihuaquan set here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw5BW7z_uY

the rest of the set in the encyc. doesnt really follow either of the two videos for xiaomeihuaquan though. just the first and last section kinda.

[LFJ]

compare the two xiaomeihuaquan performances. they are practically identical:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHHs8-qquk

[Sal Canzonieri]

i meant liu zhenhai's book. it shows dameihuaquan as "dameihuaquan"?

then that is obviously in conflict with his vcd which shows the set as "luohanquan 7lu", right?

if so, then it was apparently just used as a luohan set to throw people off. :rolleyes:

i dont have the individual vcds, just the performance vcd which has them all. it includes the xiaomeihuaquan set, almost exactly like that one i posted with the guy in yellow.
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

the vcd one is performed by shi xingsen who narrates the performance vcd, and also does it on the individual vcd.

but both that vcd and the other video i posted do it differently than the shaolin encyc. that book has a ditang move in it, which i have also seen in a chinese magazine done that way.

interestingly, these two unrelated videos replace the ditang move with the exact same technique. the little hop behind move done at :20 into the above video.

in the encyc. it is the ditang move done by shi guosong at :30 into the ditang meihuaquan set here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw5BW7z_uY

the rest of the set in the encyc. doesnt really follow either of the two videos for xiaomeihuaquan though. just the first and last section kinda.

I have the feeling that the editors of the videos made it into a Luohan Quan set.
It just seems like a mistake. He's got a Xiao Meihua Quan vcd and Xiao and Da of all the other sets he does.

Da Meihua videos are everywhere.
Xiao no, only those two. I wonder why?

Liu Zhenhai's book shows the Da Meihua set, but names it just "Meihua Quan".
I just ordered the one I was missing, his Xiao Meihua, I have almost all of his other ones individually (except a lot of the weapons ones, didn't get them yet).

The Tagou book only has Da Meihua, not a Xiao, which is strange since it has all the Xiao and Da for all their other sets.

i guess it is mostly known as Shaolin Ditang Meihuan Quan?
I thought I saw it said that way in other books as well.

By the way, a Ditang Meihuan Quan is popular in Shandong province, and they originally got it from Shaolin, according to their history.

[LFJ]

i guess it is mostly known as Shaolin Ditang Meihuan Quan?
I thought I saw it said that way in other books as well.

well, the xiaomeihuaquan in the shaolin encyc. has just one ditang technique in it (not counting sweeps). not so much like the ditang meihuaquan shi guosong demonstrates.

however, if you watch and compare these two, they follow the exact same sequence up to that first ditang move.

compare these two xiaomeihuaquan videos with the ditang meihuaquan video. watch the sequence of the two xiao videos up to the hop into chabu with crane's beak (yellow clothes) or low hammer strike (shi xingsen). this is where the move comes in that shi guosong does, actually lying on the ground and stomping over his own leg. the shaolin encyc. shows this move actually being in the xiaomeihuaquan set too, but the rest is different.

from the beginning to :49 in shi xingsen's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHHs8-qquk

from the beginning to :20 in the yellow suit video:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

from the beginning to :31 in shi guosong's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw5BW7z_uY

examine closely. these sequences are the same. only shi guosong goes in a different direction and has a couple extra moves, but follows the same sequence nonetheless.

the xiaomeihuaquan in the encyc. follows this too, but all three go astray after that technique.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, the xiaomeihuaquan in the shaolin encyc. has just one ditang technique in it (not counting sweeps). not so much like the ditang meihuaquan shi guosong demonstrates.

however, if you watch and compare these two, they follow the exact same sequence up to that first ditang move.

compare these two xiaomeihuaquan videos with the ditang meihuaquan video. watch the sequence of the two xiao videos up to the hop into chabu with crane's beak (yellow clothes) or low hammer strike (shi xingsen). this is where the move comes in that shi guosong does, actually lying on the ground and stomping over his own leg. the shaolin encyc. shows this move actually being in the xiaomeihuaquan set too, but the rest is different.

from the beginning to :49 in shi xingsen's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHHs8-qquk

from the beginning to :20 in the yellow suit video:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

from the beginning to :31 in shi guosong's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw5BW7z_uY

examine closely. these sequences are the same. only shi guosong goes in a different direction and has a couple extra moves, but follows the same sequence nonetheless.

the xiaomeihuaquan in the encyc. follows this too, but all three go astray after that technique.

Yep, I see it.
All peter out and go astray after a certain point from the encyc and each other.

[LFJ]

i've counted the movements and ditang meihuaquan is also 29 postures, just like the xiaomeihuaquan set is, both on those videos and in the encyc..

they share the same sequence, and the ditang meihuaquan has the ground technique in it that only the encyc. has, not these other two videos.

rendahai (where's he been?) also said he's seen several distinct versions of a xiaomeihuaquan, and described them like the ditang meihuaquan.

i wonder if they are two closely related sets, or if the version in the two videos is actually simplified.

actually..... wait... if you examine even more closely, the whole set is basically the same! even after that ground move, they both turn around to gongbu chongquan. then do a sort of spin-around move into dulibu. and directly afterward do a slapkick (either jumping or standing) into pubu anzhang. followed by another kick. then gongbu shuang tuizhang is in both (but switched places with the kick). and finally they both do a three kick combo: right slapkick, turn back and dust off the left shoe (whatever its called), then do a jump kick (either straight or tornado) (just like the datongbiquan ending), and then finish in the zuoshan pose.

i know it is very obscure, but examine closely and you can see how the entire sets run the same sequence (technically different as they may be).

so again, two closely related sets, like the two zhaoyangquan (朝阳拳 and 昭阳拳) which are basically the same sets but with minor technical differences? or are those two video ones really simplified versions, and shi guosong's ditang meihuaquan is the real xiaomeihuaquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

i've counted the movements and ditang meihuaquan is also 29 postures, just like the xiaomeihuaquan set is, both on those videos and in the encyc..

they share the same sequence, and the ditang meihuaquan has the ground technique in it that only the encyc. has, not these other two videos.

rendahai (where's he been?) also said he's seen several distinct versions of a xiaomeihuaquan, and described them like the ditang meihuaquan.

i wonder if they are two closely related sets, or if the version in the two videos is actually simplified.

actually..... wait... if you examine even more closely, the whole set is basically the same! even after that ground move, they both turn around to gongbu chongquan. then do a sort of spin-around move into dulibu. and directly afterward do a slapkick (either jumping or standing) into pubu anzhang. followed by another kick. then gongbu shuang tuizhang is in both (but switched places with the kick). and finally they both do a three kick combo: right slapkick, turn back and dust off the left shoe (whatever its called), then do a jump kick (either straight or tornado) (just like the datongbiquan ending), and then finish in the zuoshan pose.

i know it is very obscure, but examine closely and you can see how the entire sets run the same sequence (technically different as they may be).

so again, two closely related sets, like the two zhaoyangquan (朝阳拳 and 昭阳拳) which are basically the same sets but with minor technical differences? or are those two video ones really simplified versions, and shi guosong's ditang meihuaquan is the real xiaomeihuaquan?

No, they have to be the same set, it's just different stylistic emphasis.
I think that they just simplified the Ditang Meihua Quan in those two videos.
Why not, they've been doing it for all the other sets.

[LFJ]

maybe.

the two chao/zhaoyangquan sets were created by the same person, shi zhanju in the qing dynasty.

first he created 朝阳拳 (morning sun/facing the sun boxing) based on shaolin hongquan and tongbiquan. but after thinking over it, he then edited it with an extra opening sequence starting with zuoshan, and overall improved upon his original set. he called the new one 昭阳拳 (bright sun boxing).

the names also refer to the strategy. "morning sun/facing the sun" is soft, warm and soothing. its a straightforward self-defense set. its attacks are obvious. "bright sun" (like at noon) is piercing and overwhelming. its a more aggressive set. its attack strategy is deceptive.

but they are still visually identical sets. if you just watched them you'd think they are stylistic differences depending on who's doing them. but they are actually two different sets.

these are shown in the shaolin encyc.. and here are a couple videos:

朝阳拳
http://www.56.com/u40/v_NDIyNTczNjU.html

昭阳拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA2ODE4MjE2.html

now with the meihuaquan sets, its more obvious now that they run the same entire sequence, but that xiaomeihuaquan is really different to be a simplification of ditang meihuaquan.

as with the two chao/zhaoyang sets, the later edited one is more complex.

but heck, xiaohongquan is a simplification of laojia hongquan. its obvious. but you couldnt just tell that on first glance without an examination.

[LFJ]

The form you showed is called guanchao quan (tide watching form).

which one? i showed two.

chaoyang and zhaoyang are two different sets. they are both listed in the four volume shaolin encyclopedia.

as i posted, this one is the "chaoyang" (朝阳) set as listed in the shaolin encyc., created first by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty:
http://www.56.com/u40/v_NDIyNTczNjU.html

and this is the "zhaoyang" (昭阳) set as listed in the shaolin encyc., created by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty based on his chaoyangquan, with the zuoshan posture and first small sequence added to the beginning, and the rest of the set edited for improvements and changed strategy (as explained in the encyc..):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA2ODE4MjE2.html

which one are you saying is guanchaoquan?


Here is a video of how it should look as taught by Degen da shi

http://www.56.com/u87/v_NDI0NjMyNDQ.html

this is the set in the shaolin encyc. listed as "chaoyangquan" (朝阳拳), but it has the zuoshan posture and first sequence added to it, which should be from the first zhaoyangquan set (昭阳拳).

but notice he doesnt do the kick with the double spear hand movement at the beginning, because the chaoyang set just does the spear hands in gongbu. its done with a kick in the zhaoyang set because monk zhanju thought over and changed the strategy to bring the opponents attention high and strike low, etc..

this is used in, among other places later in the set, the movement following zuoshan, the chop in mabu, and the gongbu banshou. the next move is a right cover block with a left palm-thrust over it with a low shovel kick. (high-low strategy) this is explained in the introduction of the set in the shaolin encyc.. (and also why they are named chaoyang or zhaoyang to reflect their strategies)

other than that, its the chaoyang set, but missing the xubu baifo postures between the mabu punches starting at :54 there. in the zhaoyang set it has different postures and techniques between them.

so you're saying the chaoyangquan set is actually guanchaoquan?

i dont know how that can be. i dont have the new two volume shaolin encyclopedia yet, but i see in the table of contents that both the chaoyangquan and guanchaoquan set are listed. if you have it can you take a look and see which they are exactly?


Originally it started with a yinyang shou at the begining. THe zuo shan stance wasn't there. In the 80's when yong wen shi released a book on Zhaoyang quan, he thought the begining wasn't very 'cool' so he added the zuo shan stance, the chop and the opening shoulder move. the rest is as Degen da shi taught.

so you're saying everyone started following the way shi yongwen did it in his book? including shi deqian and shi deyang?

the name and character for both are explained to reflect the different strategies in both sets (chao vs zhao). the different strategies can be seen throughout the two sets. they differ on a lot more than just the opening. although they follow the same sequences, the detail of the individual techniques are different.

and i have seen many different people practice each. whether it was chaoyang or zhaoyang could be seen, if you knew both.

what seems to have happened is that shi yongwen took the opening sequence of zhaoyangquan and added it to chaoyangquan, not that he made it up himself.

if you're saying the "zhaoyangquan" (with the new opening) is actually just chaoyangquan which is in fact guanchaoquan, and the real zhaoyangquan is something completely different, then i dont follow you here.

as for guanchaoquan and the "real" zhaoyangquan, i'd have to see them.

[mawali]

Sal said
SHAANXI is where Shaolin Hong Quan originated, at least the version that reached Shaolin via Li Sou. but isn't this from where Chen family art originated before they ended up in Chenjaogou and synthesis produced what we know as Chen shi taijiquan.

In some circles it is also said that Yang Luchan practiced a version of Hongquan or he saw a connection between Shaolin and Chen style synthesis so he was able to change the Chen choreography (using Shaolin as a template system) into present day Yang taijiquan!

[LFJ]

THe ZHaoyang/Chaoyang form you are referring to is the same form, Chaoyang is simply missing one or two moves, there shouldn't be a difference.

actually there is quite a large difference throughout the whole sets, if you know them both. everyone i have seen do chaoyangquan do it all the same. and everyone i have seen do zhaoyangquan do it all the same.


The high low tactic is not unique to zhaoyang quan but is repeated in all shaolin forms. Actually the only difference with Deyangs is that instead of doing 'pound a morter' twice and the punch down punch up thing once, he does the punch down/up thing all 3 times, a perfectly acceptable substitution. THe other difference is he changes the lying backwards move for three spear hands and a side kick, and he kicks at the same time as spear hand at the begining, otherwise the form is identical, it only looks a bit different, the series of applications is the same. THey probably just thought the lying back kick was not so useful.

there is a lot more than just that. it takes a close examination if you havent learned both. but everyone who does each set does the exact same differences in place where they should be, throughout the entire sets. and the strategies are obvious. all of chaoyangquan's attacks are straightforward. there are no hidden or cheap shots. whereas the zhaoyangquan set is full of deceptive techniques, blinding the opponent with upper body attacks while using that distraction to attack their lower body. the chaoyangquan set doesnt do that.

thats why chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) means "exposed to the sun", its out in the open. nothing hidden. "打明不打暗" (dǎ míng bù dǎ àn), literally "strike bright, dont strike dark".

while zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) means "bright sun", its piercing to the eyes. blinding the opponent in order to take deceptive shots. distracting high and striking low.

thats why chaoyangquan just does the double spear hand in gongbu, while zhaoyangquan does a kick with it. it was edited to change the strategy.

also, shi deyang does teach the lying backwards kick as a straight kick that turns over in the air. just not so much in the instructional video of his. the kid in this video does it a little more obviously:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WQ8wDT-uzk

when it is done your right foot even leaves the ground a little as you shoot forward and lean back. just not totally horizontal or anything. not a significant differene.


The differences are so minor I expect that Deyang himself changed the form, or whoever showed it to him did. It would have been contributed to the encyclopedia probably by Deyang.

you dont sound as if you've learned them both. they run the same sequences but almost every move is changed, and their differing strategies are obvious. so much to where i'm not convinced that they are the same set. or that everyone read shi yongwen's book and started doing it like him, or even committed his changes to the encyclopedia. it seems he just took the beginning from one set and added it to the other because he liked it.

especially since everyone who does it one way names in chaoyangquan, and if the other way its always named zhaoyangquan. which means they are done and named that way for a reason.


The original Zhaoyang to which the history is referring is a much grander, much greater form, on a par with tongbi and pao quan.

can you check the 2 volume encyclopedia on the sets it shows as guanchaoquan and zhaoyangquan? also translate their history here.

[LFJ]

Currently I am translating a book on Zhaoyang quan by Yong Wen Shi. It contains both Guanchao quan ( or 4 lo zhaoyang quan) and Er lo zhaoyang quan (from the original set of 3).

so you have seen zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) erlu and sanlu, and another which is guanchaoquan (chaoyangquan 朝阳拳).

what about zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) yilu?

i have seen the lyrics to the sets, and yilu is zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) as done by shi deyang.

i think guanchaoquan (chaoyangquan 朝阳拳) which is one set was made first, by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty. then as he thought over the strategy he edited that set into zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) yilu which has the zuoshan and beginning sequence added.

then the subsequent roads are the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) you're talking about.

[RenDaHai]

Here is another example of an utterly different variation:

http://www.56.com/u25/v_MzM0NDEyNDY.html

Its still the same form....

Deyangs zhaoyang is another variation, It is impossible to acertain the true history when forms change so much,

But what is important is that there are 4 forms, and that the other 3 are more interesting, and form a more complete style.

Take a look at tagous version as well, this s referred to as Chaoyang, it is the shorter variation I am talking about.

[LFJ]

i know how similar they are, but each time i see it practiced one way it is called by that name (either chao or zhao). its always like that, by different people.

i'm waiting to get the 2 volume encyclopedia so i can see what they have listed now, since guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan are both listed. i'm interested to see what they show for them and what history they've written now.

as for the zhaoyangquan, i've only read the lyrics of the other sets. yilu as i said was just like shi deyang does it. i didnt recognize the others. but i at least know they exist, as you say.

[LFJ]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see what the new encyclopedia has.... probably the same as the old one but with chaoyang replaced to be guanchao.

well, no. thats the thing. the table of contents (http://www.shaolins.com/encyclopedia/) shows guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan, but no zhaoyangquan listed.

that is only pinyin though, no characters shown. so i'm not sure yet.


I have a suspician the name chaoyang quan is a mistake that has lasted a long time, it sounds and looks (characters) very similar to zhaoyang. Zhaoyang is often pronounced exactly like chaoyang.

the characters are like this: 朝 and 昭, only the first one can be pronounced either "cháo" or "zhāo", but for shaolin chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) it is pronounced "cháo".

the second one is the character used for the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) sets, and is only pronounced "zhāo".

the thing that has me hanging is that the new encyclopedia has both guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) listed. if they used an automated pinyin conversion tool then it would have only made "chao" pinyin for 朝, not 昭. and if it were a person i'm sure they'd know the only one possible pronunciation of 昭. zhaoyangquan is not listed at all this time.

so there must be something of interest to see there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, no. thats the thing. the table of contents (http://www.shaolins.com/encyclopedia/) shows guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan, but no zhaoyangquan listed.

that is only pinyin though, no characters shown. so i'm not sure yet.



the characters are like this: 朝 and 昭, only the first one can be pronounced either "cháo" or "zhāo", but for shaolin chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) it is pronounced "cháo".

the second one is the character used for the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) sets, and is only pronounced "zhāo".

the thing that has me hanging is that the new encyclopedia has both guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) listed. if they used an automated pinyin conversion tool then it would have only made "chao" pinyin for 朝, not 昭. and if it were a person i'm sure they'd know the only one possible pronunciation of 昭. zhaoyangquan is not listed at all this time.

so there must be something of interest to see there.

No, there's a typo on their web page. It says Shao (should be Zhao) Yang Quan, page 383.
In the new version, both the Zhao and Chao (page 964) are shown, it is the exact same forms as in the old one. (look again on that webpage, you will see both are listed. The only redid the Zhao one with photos (page 383).

The Guan Chao (page 107) is only the lyrics for the postures, it's in the in lost forms section (which they call Section - Summarized practice methods for Shaolin boxing... 95
but it is really all their forms that they don't have drawings for or are still researching.
So, nothing to be learned from there, except the names of the postures of Guan Chao.

--------------------

Here's other things I see only in the new version:

There's now three Mei Hua Quan sets.
1 - Mei Hua Quan (photos showing a fuller version of the Ditang Mei Hua set)
2- Xiao Mei Hua Quan (photos showing same set as 4 volume version)
3 - Da Mei Hua Quan (photos showing same set as in 4 volume version).

They have REMOVED the Xin Yi Mizhong Quan set (erlu), it's gone and it is replaced with Qi Xing, 7 Stars set.

As far Luohan Quan, they added the Tagou Er Lu Luohan Quan set.

Also, I see that the Luo Wang 18 Palms set is almost like one of the videos in the Liu Zhenhai's 7 Luohan set series.

[LFJ]

No, there's a typo on their web page. It says Shao (should be Zhao) Yang Quan, page 383.
In the new version, both the Zhao and Chao (page 964) are shown, it is the exact same forms as in the old one. (look again on that webpage, you will see both are listed. The only redid the Zhao one with photos (page 383).

okay, i see.


The Guan Chao (page 107) is only the lyrics for the postures, it's in the in lost forms section (which they call Section - Summarized practice methods for Shaolin boxing... 95
but it is really all their forms that they don't have drawings for or are still researching.
So, nothing to be learned from there, except the names of the postures of Guan Chao.

interesting... can you tell by the lyrics whether it is like chaoyangquan or zhaoyangquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, i see.



interesting... can you tell by the lyrics whether it is like chaoyangquan or zhaoyangquan?

Yeah, it is 28 postures, like Zhao (Rising sun) on page 181 of 4 volume set.
But not too much like it, it shares some posture names.

You can translate it and post it, the "lost" forms are given in volume 1 of the 4 volume set.
Do you have all 4?

There is also a 2 volume version that has it as well, it came out first, in 1992, before the 4 volume version.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I can tell you a bit about Zhaoyang quan,


Zhaoying quan (rising sun fist) is an excellent shaolin style.

However the zhaoyang quan you are referring to is not zhaoyang quan at all.

Zhaoyang quan is like other shaolin sets, it has 3 forms. It is of very much shaolin style, but also with its own character. It uses standard moves (dan bian, xie xing) but in zhaoyang quan they are all done shorter, smaller. Lots of unique kicks, has a slight luohan quan flavour.

The form you showed is called guanchao quan (tide watching form). Like many shaolin forms 3 lo zhaoyang quan and guanchao quan form a kind of couple, (like xiao and da pao quan, tongbi etc).

Originally zhaoyang quan was known by Degen Da shi. During the 50's he was enscripted to teach in Dengfeng middle school. He taught the form guanchao quan which he modified. It is part of zhaoyang quan family. At the time he called it zhaoyang quan (but it was not the complete zhaoyang quan). So many poeple in dengfeng learned this form. And so now it is practiced in many schools. THere is a short and a longer version. But whichever one you learn it is still only 1 out of 4 forms of zhaoyang quan.

Here is a video of how it should look as taught by Degen da shi

http://www.56.com/u87/v_NDI0NjMyNDQ.html

Originally it started with a yinyang shou at the begining. THe zuo shan stance wasn't there. In the 80's when yong wen shi released a book on Zhaoyang quan, he thought the begining wasn't very 'cool' so he added the zuo shan stance, the chop and the opening shoulder move. the rest is as Degen da shi taught.

It appears that Degen was the only real source of this style, so if it is not practiced like the one above it has probably been changed within the last 30 years.

As far as Yong Wen Shi knows, he is the only one who got taught all 4 zhaoyang quan forms..... He also released a book on san lo zhaoyang quan. very nice form.

That video you link to is the same Chao Yang Quan set I always see, except done much better of course.
It follows the postures seen in the Shaolin Encyc. exactly for Chao Yang (with smoother transitions).

It is different from the posture names given for Guan Chao Quan.
Maybe LFJ can post the names in pinyin and english here.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Spent the last few days in shaolin,

Was talking to Yan Zhuang Shifu.

He told me Luohan quan was originally 18 forms. Most of dengfeng only has the first two, and then they only practice half of each. He says the first three are more important.

His Yi lu is the one as deyang does, only much longer 85 movements.

His Er lo is as the one zhang shi jie does, only much longer, 108 movements

His san lo is great, 60 moves, a very nice form.

Together these three form the main substance of Luohan quan, I don't think you will find a more definitive set, unless you find all 18.

His luohan 18 shou is not really a classic form, it is individual movements. It kind of looks a bit like Ba duan jin when put together. ALso very good.

So, Shi Yan Zhuang's Yi Lu Louhan is the complete Shi Degen Yi Lu set (85 postures)? What does Shi DeYang call this set again?

And what is his Er Lu? Is there a video of Zhang Shi Jie doing the set anywhere? What is this set also called?

San Lu, I have seen, of course, in the new book.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal said but isn't this from where Chen family art originated before they ended up in Chenjaogou and synthesis produced what we know as Chen shi taijiquan.

In some circles it is also said that Yang Luchan practiced a version of Hongquan or he saw a connection between Shaolin and Chen style synthesis so he was able to change the Chen choreography (using Shaolin as a template system) into present day Yang taijiquan!

No, Chen family is from SHANXI (not ShAAnxi, two different provinces), which is north of Shaanxi and Henan.
Chen family is from Hongdong area, which they practice a Chen TJQ like style called Hondong Tongbei Quan, a mixture of Shanxi Hong Quan and Chen family Long Fist form.
Yes, Yang Lu Chan's village was famous for it's Hong Quan.

[LFJ]

Yeah, it is 28 postures, like Zhao (Rising sun) on page 181 of 4 volume set.
But not too much like it, it shares some posture names.

You can translate it and post it, the "lost" forms are given in volume 1 of the 4 volume set.
Do you have all 4?

There is also a 2 volume version that has it as well, it came out first, in 1992, before the 4 volume version.

can you tell me the page number its on?

[Sal Canzonieri]

can you tell me the page number its on?

Volume 1 in the set, page 644, right above 6 Ancestors Quan (Liu Zu Quan) you will find the Guan Zhao Quan set.
No history, it just lists the postures, I counted 28.
And some are the same postures as in the other sets.

[LFJ]

well, i cant find it. i have an electronic version, apparently missing some pages... i'll have to wait for this new daquan book to read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, i cant find it. i have an electronic version, apparently missing some pages... i'll have to wait for this new daquan book to read it.

oh man, it doesn't have volume 1? The history volume?
The "lost" routines section here is way bigger than the one in the new version.
There's lots of great sets listed with their postures and some info too.
A lot of these sets are found in the dengfeng and other areas of Henan.
Luoyang has a lot of lost Shaolin sets, some listed here.

[LFJ]

is it the same in the daquan book though, for chaoyangquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

is it the same in the daquan book though, for chaoyangquan?

Hmm? Don't understand your question.

The Guanchao Quan posture names are in both books.

The Chao and Zhao Yang sets are in both books as well.
Only the first one has photos of the postures.

Guan Chao, chao yang, and Zhao yang all have different posture names; they are three different sets.

[LFJ]

Guan Chao, chao yang, and Zhao yang all have different posture names; they are three different sets.

thats what i figured.

sorry, i meant to ask about guanchaoquan being the same in both.

[LFJ]

Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

this is the first set i ever learned when starting shaolin. that and babu lianhuanquan, which both can be done as a partner set without changing anything.

was just looking at the shaolin encyc. and this set is listed as luohan shiba shou "9 lu", but it is drawn by a different artist (a much better one). just like the mizongquan 2 lu was. it is way easier to follow. but must have been a later addition.

interestingly, they dont give any history for this 9th set. they just list it as if it were part of the 1-8 road series. only it says the attack skills are a step above.

the way i originally learned it was exactly like the encyclopedia shows it. which is the way most people do it outside of shaolin, more or less. at shi deyang's school its different. the video you posted is one of the main coaches at the school now. but the way he does it there is different too. its done like this at the school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

i like the last section, starting from :17. its way smoother that way, than grabbing your shoulder and literally doing a qinna technique on an invisible man. the ending section the way most people do it is too obvious, and the rhythm is too choppy... i think.

[Sal Canzonieri]

this is the first set i ever learned when starting shaolin. that and babu lianhuanquan, which both can be done as a partner set without changing anything.

was just looking at the shaolin encyc. and this set is listed as luohan shiba shou "9 lu", but it is drawn by a different artist (a much better one). just like the mizongquan 2 lu was. it is way easier to follow. but must have been a later addition.

interestingly, they dont give any history for this 9th set. they just list it as if it were part of the 1-8 road series. only it says the attack skills are a step above.

the way i originally learned it was exactly like the encyclopedia shows it. which is the way most people do it outside of shaolin, more or less. at shi deyang's school its different. the video you posted is one of the main coaches at the school now. but the way he does it there is different too. its done like this at the school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

i like the last section, starting from :17. its way smoother that way, than grabbing your shoulder and literally doing a qinna technique on an invisible man. the ending section the way most people do it is too obvious, and the rhythm is too choppy... i think.

I learned those 2 sets too early on too, cool.
The set is originally from Luoyang, and before that it was from Shandong.
It's got the five elements in the whole first section of the set.
The way I learned it is not so tight and more fluid than the standard version seen all over. You should so that way they do it in Louyang, it looks great, kinda like snakey Xing Yi.
You can see the Shandong Hua (Glorious) Fist original way of doing it on vcds that are available from that style's lineage.

That set and the mizong er lu are taken out of the new 2 volume shaolin da quan books.

You like that the hand lock move is not done in that video link? I don't.
I learned the Hua Quan version too, besides the Shaolin version, and saw the Luoyang version, and that qin na movement is integral to the self defense use of the movements, in my opinion. Smooth is not always the most effective way of doing things.
Against a shoulder grab, it's a good application. and a great way to break a jerk's elbow when necessary.

[LFJ]

no, the qinna application is still there. i just dont like how in most versions you literally grab your shoulder and look like you're applying the lock on someone who isnt there. just looks and feels weird to me, since most qinna techniques and other applications in shaolin sets are somewhat hidden, not so obvious.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The joint locks are obvious in other Hua Quan sets too, that style is way ancient and so it often looks primitive (but still extremely effective)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ok Guys

Just got back from another training session with Yan Zhuang Shifu.

Earlier I made an assumption, he said his Luohan quan yi lo was about 80 moves, er lo 108. He showen me the first few of each and it looked like the sets we are familiar with.

However, we were learning Yi lu luohan quan today....

It is like Liu Zhen Hai. Basically, it is liu zhen hais yi lu and Er lu stuck together, with no zuo shan stance as a break, they merge directly. This is really interesting.

Actually the form is very close, there are a lot of different direction changes and some moves done on the left instead of the right and vice versa but it is basically the same form. Very long indeed, much longer than the Tagou Da luohan.

Now having studied both versions, you can see that the second part of the tagou form is actually just an abridgement of LiuZhenHais Er lo form.

This has led me to hypothesize that YanZhuangs Er lo luohan (108 moves) will be LiuZhenHais 3,4 and 5 luohan stuck together.

THis makes a lot of sense. When you see liuzhenhais forms individually, they look a little strange, but if you imagine it is all one big form you can see there is a lot of symmetry between all the forms.

The funny thing is this symmetry recurs even in Meihua quan (even in the second half of meihua quan that liu zhenhai doesn't show ) which leads me to think that it is indeed luohan quan. In fact it has no unique moves which do not occur in the other luohan quans.

ANyway so far I have learned YanZHuangs Yi lo luohan quan which is basically Liuzhenhais Yi lu and er lu together, only a lot lot cooler. THere are a few differences as I say, but all the moves are there.

Once again it seems LiuZhenHais VCD series is about the most accurate....


Very interesting, hmmm.

So, there`s like three long Luohan Quan routines then.

1 - There`s Shi Degen`s Yi Lu set (about 85 postures) and there is a Er Lu he taught too.

2 - There`s Liu Zhenhai`s and Tagou`s Da Luohan Quan, about 108 postures.

3 - There`s this Shi Yanzhuang Yi Lu and Er lu set that is very close to Liu Zhenhai`s short 1-6 Luohan Quan VCDs.

Is that correct or wrong.

These three groupings are 3 different long sets, yes or no.

but, how can Liu Zhenhai's Luohan Quan vcds be explained in that:

yi lu = the Lao Luohan that Shi Deyang does (aka 3 section Luohan, Xiao Luohan, etc.)

er lu = ?

san lu = first section of Shi Degen's Luohan Quan Yi Lu set

si lu = ?

wu lu = ?

liu lu = looks like Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan?

Qi lu = Da Mei Hua Quan.

What would be amazing then would be that Shi Yanzhuang`s Yi, Er, and San sets would not only cover Liuzhenhai`s vcds Luohan series, specifically 1-6 lu
BUT also it would cover Shi Degen`s Yi Lu set (since Liuzhenhai`s Si Lu and like Wu Lu cover that set as well).

If that is the case, please ask him to do books on this Yi Lu and Er Lu to complete the set that he started in Shi Yongxin`s San Lu Luohan Quan book.

[RenDaHai]

Not quite..

Liu Zhen Hai Forms:

1 lo: YanZhuang Yi lo 1/2, Deyang 1/1, TagouDa 1/2, YongWen(from Degen) 1/2

2 lo: YanZhuang Yi lo 2/2, TagouDa 2/2 Fractional, YongWen 2/2 frational

3 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 1/3, Tagou xiao, Tagou 'refined', Zhangshijie(zhutianxi) 1/2

4 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 2/3, Tagou xiao, Tagou 'refined', Zhangshijie 2/2

5 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 3/3, should be similar to zhutianxi's book in this part.

6 lo: YanZhuang San lo 1/2

7 lo: YanZhuang Meihua quan 1/2

Basically Liuzhenhais 1+2 put together cover all variations of 'xiao' luohan quan as deyang refers to it. They should be together, you can see he doesn't even end in zuo shan for yi lo on his VCD's. My form is the two put together, no zuo shan in between.

LiuZHenHais 3+4+5 should also be together (in theory, I am yet to confirm this, but from the conversation I had with YanZHuang I think its a safe bet). This, although different in sequence, should cover all the moves in Tagous xiao luohan, and refined luohan, as well as in Zhutianxi's book and in zhangshijie's performance (white robes performance). It forms Yan Zhuangs er lo. SOme basics are different but if you study it you will see all the moves are present.

LiuZhenHais 6 form is the same as the first half of yanzhuangs 3 form. LiuZHenhais 7 form as we have discussed is the first half of meihua quan. Although having watched these extensively and studied 1+2 I can say with confidence that every move in meihua quan appears in luohan somewhere... It think it may well be a luohan quan set.


I think Liuzhenhais sets are only split as they are because they can only fit so much on a vcd, together they are probably the same as yanzhuangs, 3 sets not 6,7.


Basically if you study all of LiuZhenhais Luohan quans you have the complete set of moves in all published versions of luohan quan. There are still the rest of the 18 forms, but it appears if they still exist only Zhutianxis lineage will have the remainders.

Bare in mind LiuZhenhai was also a student of Degen. We can see by the rest of his forms that his stuff has remained unchanged. YOngwen, zhutianxi and others may have changed some elements of forms for publication but i beleive liuzhenhai has kept his as they are.

Some sad news, it appears Liuzhenhai may have died recently.... More on that when I find out for certain.

[LFJ]

Some sad news, it appears Liuzhenhai may have died recently.... More on that when I find out for certain.

oh man, _/\_

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yes, that would be sad indeed.

okay, so if your observances are correct Liu Zhenhai's vcds would cover everything Except Liu's and Tagou's Da Louhan Quan set.
That routine is a different routine, even if it shares some movements and postures from the other ones, it's clearly a 108 posture set that is its own entity.

[RenDaHai]

Kind of,

Liu Zhen hais forms cover everything.

So, the first half of Tagous Da luohan is for all intensive purposes the same as LZH yi lo. The second half is diffrent. The second half of Tagous Da luohan is also the same as the second half of YongWens luohan quan. However... I beleive it covers this as well. I couldn't see it from watching but now that i know both versions, you can see that most (except for 3 stances) of the second half of da luohan appears in LZH Er lo luohan. I beleive the second half of tagous Da luohan is an abreviation of the LZH Er lo form. As I say you can't really see it, but if you study it you can see.

The collection of applications i sthe same, they use slightly different stances but with the ame meaning. THe only difference is the the two punches leading up to the phoenix spreads its wings. Except this 3 move section all the rest appears in LZH 2.

Anyhow the first half is unmistakeable. I beleive Tagous and yong wens are a slightly abreviated version of Yanzhuangs Yi lo (LZH 1+2).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Kind of,

Liu Zhen hais forms cover everything.

So, the first half of Tagous Da luohan is for all intensive purposes the same as LZH yi lo. The second half is diffrent. The second half of Tagous Da luohan is also the same as the second half of YongWens luohan quan. However... I beleive it covers this as well. I couldn't see it from watching but now that i know both versions, you can see that most (except for 3 stances) of the second half of da luohan appears in LZH Er lo luohan. I beleive the second half of tagous Da luohan is an abreviation of the LZH Er lo form. As I say you can't really see it, but if you study it you can see.

The collection of applications i sthe same, they use slightly different stances but with the ame meaning. THe only difference is the the two punches leading up to the phoenix spreads its wings. Except this 3 move section all the rest appears in LZH 2.

Anyhow the first half is unmistakeable. I beleive Tagous and yong wens are a slightly abreviated version of Yanzhuangs Yi lo (LZH 1+2).

Liu Zhenhai's Da Luohan Quan set in his book has a transition section between the two halves that the Tagou book is missing.
Also, the Tagou books have extra stuff in one part as well.

I was told to put the two together.
I even have a one to one correspondence chart with page numbers, shows all the overlap and which one had a posture that the other didn't at that point.

The first part of Da Luohan Quan is the long version of Deyang's Lao Luohan / Xiao Luohan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Finally posted the 7 Luohan sets on youtube:

1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggCi0CUM0jc

2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_r9DoSZ038

3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV4r11xzk7U

4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H036C7vo0a4

5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7d2BuZ6uy8

6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-dCHAZ2e9A

7 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxz03NCZk68

This much has been discovered about Liu ZhenHai's Luohan Quan VCD series:

1 - same as Lao / 3 Section Luohan Quan. Also Xiao Luohan shown by Shi deYang. First half (36 postures) of the Da Luohan Quan set

2 - The second half of the Da Luohan Quan set (as shown in Liu's Shaolin da lu book).

1 and 2 make two halves of one complete larger set.

3 - same as first part of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set and Tagou's Xiao Luohan Quan set. Abbreviated.

4 - kinda similar to second part of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set and Tagou's Xiao Luohan Quan set. Abbreviated.

3 and 4 make two halves of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set (but much abbreviated)

5 - little bit similar in part to Shaolin Er Lu (Refined set) as in Tagou's set. Abbreviated.

6 - similar to first half of Shaolin San Lu book by Shi Yongxin (new). Much abbreviated.

7 - same as Da Mei Hua Quan - first half of set.

Number One is a done deal, it is identical to Lao Luohan Quan / first half of Da Luohan sets, which is good.

Number Two - done deal, second half of Da Luohan. Good.

Number Three - that clearly is the first half of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set, which Tagou calls Xiao Luohan in the book. It is abbreviated.

Number Four - it is basically the same as the second half of Shi Degen's Yi Lu.

Number Five - it is barely similar to the modern Refined Luohan set, which is called Luohan Er Lu in the Tagou books. IF we are lucky then this VCD is showing the original version of that set, before it was modernized and parts of Yi Lu (Degen's) were mixed in.

I don't think so, since Liu Zhenhai has a Jin Tong Xiao Luohan set that is the same as the Refined Er Lu Luohan Quan set.

Number Six - done deal, it is a much abbreviated version of the Shaolin San Lu set that is shown in Shi Yongxin's yellow book. I think that Liu Zhenhai might have another book that shows this full version of the set as well.

Number Seven - how the heck this wound up being the same as Da Mei Hua Quan I don't know. But it is only the first half of that set. We should check Liu's Mei Hua Quan vcd and see if it switched and has a Luohan set instead (the only one I don't have yet!).

[RenDaHai]

Cool,

Set 2 is the second half of set 1, it contains some (not all) of the stances of the second half of tagous da luohan, but it also contains a whole load of other techniques, many unique to this form. I know this set now and as i learned it it was merged directly with the first form. In my opinion it is an older version of the tagou da luohan.

set 3 4 and 5 should be together. If you put them together and look at all the unique stances you should get all the moves of tagous refined luohan (it is refined from these 3 sets into 1 shorter set, you will notice the first part of refined luohan is exactly as 3 lo). Putting the 3 together you should also get most of tianxi's yi lu set (a few moves missing and a whole bunch of extra moves). I think these 3 sets together are an earlier version of tianxi's yi lu set, or perhaps just a version passed through a different lineage. If you take out all the unique stances you will see they appear in tianxis yi lu.

6 is as the san lo by yan zhuang (yellow book) only the first half though.

7 yeah, still no idea why this is called luohan. It actually only contains moves from the other sets of luohan quan. Looking at ditang meihua quan recently, this also only contains moves from luohan quan... i think they must be closely related.

In my opinion I think these sets together probably cover about half of 18 lo luohan quan in terms of unique moves.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cool,

Set 2 is the second half of set 1, it contains some (not all) of the stances of the second half of tagous da luohan, but it also contains a whole load of other techniques, many unique to this form. I know this set now and as i learned it it was merged directly with the first form. In my opinion it is an older version of the tagou da luohan.

Hmm, set 2 and set 5 are strange sets.
Set two has more in common with Pao Quan than anything else, there is barely any Luohan postures in it. But, nevertheless, set 2 is clearly shown in Liu's Shaolin da Lu book as the second half of Da Luohan Quan.

Where did you learn the Yi Lu and Er Lu as it being one set? I forgot, I think you mentioned it before.

Did you ever find out if Shi Yan Zhuang teaches a Shaolin Luohan Yi Lu set that merges these two sets (the VCD of Yi and Er Lu)?

I really don't think that that it an older version of the Tagou da Luohan, because Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book has the Da Luohan set in it and it is much longer and has much more transition movements than the Tagou version of this set. That looks like the older version of Da Luohan.


set 3 4 and 5 should be together. If you put them together and look at all the unique stances you should get all the moves of tagous refined luohan (it is refined from these 3 sets into 1 shorter set, you will notice the first part of refined luohan is exactly as 3 lo). Putting the 3 together you should also get most of tianxi's yi lu set (a few moves missing and a whole bunch of extra moves). I think these 3 sets together are an earlier version of tianxi's yi lu set, or perhaps just a version passed through a different lineage. If you take out all the unique stances you will see they appear in tianxis yi lu.

Set 3 clearly is most of Shi Degen's famous Yi Lu set, but the remaining section of Degen's version of this form and the remaining section the Shaolin Encyclopedia of this form are not exactly like Set 4, but nevertheless all of set 4's postures can be found in it.

I can see where the Tagou Refined Luohan Set is an amalgamation of material from Sets 3 to 5.
The first part of the Refined set is all different postures than Shi Degen's Yi Lu set, which is what Sets 3 and 4 is in the VCD series.

I can see how Set 4 and 5 can be united, 4 ends and 5 starts the same postures, but set 5 doesn't follow any sequences of movements that can be seen in the end of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set nor do they have any sequences in common with Shi Degen's Luohan Er Lu, San Lu, and Si lu sets.

Again, if Shi yan Zhuang has a Luohan Er LU set that merges these three sets together in the SAME sequences of movements, then I can "go with the flow". I would think though that if they do it is just set 3 and 4 that is their Er Lu set. Set 5 in the vcd might stand alone.


6 is as the san lo by yan zhuang (yellow book) only the first half though.

7 yeah, still no idea why this is called luohan. It actually only contains moves from the other sets of luohan quan. Looking at ditang meihua quan recently, this also only contains moves from luohan quan... i think they must be closely related.

In my opinion I think these sets together probably cover about half of 18 lo luohan quan in terms of unique moves.

Yeah, set 6 is clearly Shaolin Luohan San Lu, which is great to see, glad for that.

Set 7, I don't know what happened here. I still think it is mistake. It's not even filmed in the same place and time as the other 6 sets were in this series.

There still seems to be separate Shaolin Luohan Quan lineages with their own sets.

1 - There's Shaolin's Yi, Er, and Lu sets that Shi Yan Zhuang does.

2 - There's Shi Degen's series of extra Luohan sets after Yi Lu to ? lu.

3 - There's some sets that Liu Zhenhai does that no one else seems to do.

Only the Lao (3 section / Xiao) Luohan is in common between Shaolin via Shi Deyang (from Su Xi?) and Liu Zhenhai Set 1 (vcd).

Also, the Shaolin Encyclopedia shows:

1 - a 27 posture Luohan Quan that begins like Lao Luohan but that goes into entirely different set. It is not like any of the sets in Tagou nor Liu's vcds.

2- a Luohan Quan set that is the same as Shi Degen's Yi Lu / Tagou Xiao Luohan, except after the same point that EVERYONE'S version of this set, it goes off into another direction and has all different movements than the remaining section of Degen's Yi Lu.
Tagou's Xiao Luohan does this as well.
Did perhaps Shi Degen not teach the remaining section of this set to people? Except Zhu Tian Xi, as he seems to be doing the whole set.
That video of Zhu's students doesn't finish the Yi Lu set either, but his goes further into it than other versions.

3 - the Refined Luohan Quan set, exactly the same as Tagou's set of the same name.

[RenDaHai]

I learned the yi lu and er lu together as one set from Yan Zhuang. Actually LZH er lo is really bizzare, it has nothing in common with any other set. I know a lot of shaolin sets and almost every move in er lo is unique and appears nowhere else. THis in someway links it to yi lu as most of the yi lu set is unique as well (in comparision to shaolin standard sets, namely dahong, pao, tongbi, changhuxinyi). I think the fact it is so so different from many other shaolin sets means that this luohan quan may be from a different era from the other luohan quans. Tagous book makes it look more standardized but actually everything about this form is strange, nothing is done the way its done in other forms, it is utterly unique. not to mention Luohan quan has a different shen fa than you would use in other shaolin sets.

Er lo luohan (LZH 3,4,5 Degen Yi, Tagou xiao + refined) is a little more standard. I think all the sets in brackets are all manifestations of this form. It supposedly has 108 moves, enough to incorperate all the stances of all the variations we know of. I'm gonna say that if you find the longest set it is probably the oldest. I know many shorter versions of this set but i don't know Yan zhuangs version of it. It is my assumption looking at other sets and by conversation with yan zhuang that this set is LZH 3+4+5 all linked together as one. 3+4 clearly link together, they even have symmetry markers. 5 isn't as clear a link but because of the refined luohan set i think it goes together.

I don't have LZH's Da lu book (that sounds awesome by the way) but i think if you take a look at it again you may find that his second half of yi lu luohan is his er lo set... His sons performance in the VCD is not exactly as it may look written down. you will have to actually commit a few moves to memory then look through it. Plus in the VCD his son changes direction a lot of times, he does this to keep it in a smaller space.

The second half of Tagous Da luohan is very close to yong wens luohan which is also from Degen. SO i think Degen probably knew all the respective sets. How Tianxi chooses to name them is up to him so the yilu, erlu etc means nothing, there is probably not an order. I now know both Tagous Da luohan and yan zhuangs yi lu.... There are only a couple of moves that don't fit, i really think that the second half of Da luohan is just an abreviation of LZH er lo set. It may be an abreviation that appeared 200 years ago and has changed somewhat but i think it is the same thing. It still contains a lot of similarities.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I posted this video today on YuoTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Pu656AmJc

It's from Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin series.
It's called Jin Tong Xiao Luohan Quan - Golden Child Small Luohan Fist.

It's completely the Er Lu Luohan - aka Refined Luohan Quan set.

It's exactly in the same sequence as the better known Refined Luohan set, but it is more "basic" than the modern looking way most do it today.

Strange, it's not like his Luohan #5 set really. Shares some moves from it, but sequence is all different and emphasis is all different.

The VCD seems to be saying that this is an old set, the new version commonly seen has more postures and has another section at the very end.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I learned the yi lu and er lu together as one set from Yan Zhuang. Actually LZH er lo is really bizzare, it has nothing in common with any other set. I know a lot of shaolin sets and almost every move in er lo is unique and appears nowhere else. THis in someway links it to yi lu as most of the yi lu set is unique as well (in comparision to shaolin standard sets, namely dahong, pao, tongbi, changhuxinyi). I think the fact it is so so different from many other shaolin sets means that this luohan quan may be from a different era from the other luohan quans. Tagous book makes it look more standardized but actually everything about this form is strange, nothing is done the way its done in other forms, it is utterly unique. not to mention Luohan quan has a different shen fa than you would use in other shaolin sets.

Well, if you think about the history of Luohan Quan and that it comes from the material that Jue Yuan was doing (from out of Bai Yufeng's Wu Quan), these old Luohan sets should really look like Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan since they are all of one family arising from the same time period and people.
If the sets look too different from Pao Quan, etc., than they more than likely were developed during the Qing Dynasty, rather than the early Ming era of Jue Yuan.

Being that Liu's book has a very strange looking Shaolin Luohan 18 Hands set that he attributes to Li Sou and so on, and then he shows his Da Luohan, which shares some similar attributes and looks related to it, I would guess at this point that Da Luohan could turn out to be the oldest of the Shaolin Luohan Quan sets.


I don't have LZH's Da lu book (that sounds awesome by the way) but i think if you take a look at it again you may find that his second half of yi lu luohan is his er lo set... His sons performance in the VCD is not exactly as it may look written down. you will have to actually commit a few moves to memory then look through it. Plus in the VCD his son changes direction a lot of times, he does this to keep it in a smaller space.

Liu's Yi Lu set is the (same as Shi deyang's) Lao Luohan set, OLD Luohan, and it is also called 3 Section Luohan, because it has three sections to the set. Deyang and now a lot of others call this set "Xiao Luohan" but it is really known as Lao Luohan. Over 10 years ago I was shown it as Lao Luohan. SO< let's say it is correct and really old, then IF as Shi Yan Zhuang does it, Liu's Yi Lu and Er Lu are one complete set, then it may signify (especially since Er Lu looks so Pao Quan like) that these are some of the oldest Luohan Quan sets that harken back to Jue Yaun's Luohan Quan sets.

By the way, this set shown in Liu's Yi lu, which is the same as Deyang's Xiao Luohan set, has nothing to do with Tagou's Xiao Luohan (which as shown previously is in fact Liu's San and Si Lu sets and also Shi Degen's Yi Lu set). Previously in this thread, much further back in the posts, you said that Deyang's Xiao Luohan was weird because it looked nothing like anyone else's Xiao Luohan.

Well, yes, that is because everyone is using the name "Xiao Luohan" too loosely.
Deyang's Xiao is the Lao Luohan Quan set, as established so far in this discussion, and it is not at all the Xiao set in the Tague books, since that is in fact the Yi Lu set (most of it) from Shi Degen.

Shi Degen's Yi Lu is the standard for the Tagou Xiao Luohan set, but it is not a Xiao set nor a Da set. It is one of at least 8 sets (18 is hard to believe). Tagou calls the set "Xiao" just to make it act as a couple with their Da Luohan set (which Liu does a much more complete version).
I think NONE of the sets shown in anyone's videos known so far is the actual real Xiao Luohan set.
The real Xiao Luohan set is the one 27 posture set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

Now, to top it off, the LAO Luohan / Liu's Yi Lu set is simply nothing but the first 36 Postures / 67 movements of the DA LUOHAN set (if you follow along in Liu's Shaolin Da Lu book's more complete version of the Da Luohan set). Liu's Yi Lu set is EXACTLY the same (but a bit less complex) as his version of the Da Luohan set.

As such, it is different than Tagou's version because their version has extraneous movements and skips postures and so on. But it is generally the same set from movement 1 to 66. After that the Tagou set is nothing like Liu's version and ends so after, missing the whole last sections.
Sorry, but in my personal opinion, the Tagou version is a big mess, it lacks many, many postures and transitional movements and lacks the amazing coherence that Liu's version has. If you can see the two versions side by side, you would agree. It's like beauty and the beast, really.

Are we totally confused yet? Ha!
Lao / 3 Section / Xiao (deyang) / Yi lu (Liu zhenhai) set = Da Luohan postures 1 to 36. A very nice number to stop at and make a shortened version of Da Luohan.

So, Da Luohan is the mother set to Lao Luohan. The first 36 posture match in form and in sequence.
One thing settled. Phew!!!!


The second half of Tagous Da luohan is very close to yong wens luohan which is also from Degen. SO i think Degen probably knew all the respective sets. How Tianxi chooses to name them is up to him so the yilu, erlu etc means nothing, there is probably not an order.

I now know both Tagous Da luohan and yan zhuangs yi lu.... There are only a couple of moves that don't fit, i really think that the second half of Da luohan is just an abreviation of LZH er lo set. It may be an abreviation that appeared 200 years ago and has changed somewhat but i think it is the same thing. It still contains a lot of similarities.

Where is there a video of Yong Wen doing this Luohan set, do you have a link?

Second half of Liu's Da Luohan, from his book, is same as Tagou's but with many more postures and transitional movements. AND, Liu's version has 16 more pages of postures after Tagou's ends, with 3 postures per page! That's 16 x 3 = 48 more just for the end, and then there is all the transition postures not seen in Tagou.
Also, Tagou has just sets of straight punches in gong bu whenever it loses its place when followed along Liu's version. Seems it just fills in missing movements with just piles of punches (unless they marked the set that way) and generalized extraneous movements.

I assure you that Liu's book version of Da Luohan is much more comprehensive and complex and very interesting compared to Tagou's rudimentary looking version. It truly is a Da Luohan set with 69 postures (not counting open and close positions) and 144 different movements.

Okay, moving on:
Liu's Er Lu vcd is identical to Liu Zhenhai's second half of Da Luohan Quan.
I just followed along these two videos to his book and they are identical (though no where as detailed as the book version).

SO, that makes a set, Liu's Yi Lu and Er Lu together make a complete Da Luohan Quan set.
Thus, Shi Yanzhuang's Yi Lu set is the complete Da Luohan Quan set.
Another mystery solved. Hurray!
Lao Luohan and Da Luohan both settled, with Lao being the first half of Da.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Er lo luohan (LZH 3,4,5 Degen Yi, Tagou xiao + refined) is a little more standard. I think all the sets in brackets are all manifestations of this form. It supposedly has 108 moves, enough to incorperate all the stances of all the variations we know of. I'm gonna say that if you find the longest set it is probably the oldest. I know many shorter versions of this set but i don't know Yan zhuangs version of it. It is my assumption looking at other sets and by conversation with yan zhuang that this set is LZH 3+4+5 all linked together as one. 3+4 clearly link together, they even have symmetry markers. 5 isn't as clear a link but because of the refined luohan set i think it goes together.

Set # five starts with the same exact posture as set # four ends, it's clear to see.

In fact, it is Liu's #4 set, Si Lu, that continues on in Shi Degen's Yi Lu and finishes the remainder of Degen's set. Although it is highly abbreviated, you can follow along in the Yi Lu book and see the postures in sequence until it gets to the end. It skips some postures between each one that it does do, but it doesn't change the direction of their sequence. Each move can be found further along in Degen's book, until the Yi Lu is complete.
Thus, it is set 3 and 4 of Liu's Luohan vcds that are the abbreviated version of all of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set. In other words, a "full" version of Tagou's Xiao Luohan set (as well).

Shi Degen's last section of Yi lu starts right after the final leg sweep move, when the hands are in the "on guard" position, and the body is in a low squatting Qi Bu (empty step). End of Set #3 video.
I have yet to see anyone do these last 25 postures COMPLETELY anywhere on video (so far). As i said, set #4 does the rest of Degen's Yi Lu in highly abbreviated form but still in correct sequential order of postures.

So, I can safely say that set 3 and 4 are a pair (as are sets 1 and 2)

As far as sets 3 to 5 go:

If you say that all these so far mentioned Luohan sets are in essence sub-sets of material found in the (complete) Da Luohan Quan set, okay, that very well may be if you look at random Luohan stylistic postures. But, not if you are looking at matching sequences of patterns of postures and movements.

I think the Da Luohan Quan and Degen's Yi Lu, etc. Quan sets are coming from different ideas.

Shi Degen's Yi lu (Liu's #3 and #4 sets) is it's own instructional entity, linked to his Er lu, San Lu, Si Lu and so on. All of those sets are meant to be part of Shi Degen's Rou Quan system. All of their moves are found in all of his Rou Quan sets.
The tape of Zhu Tianxi's student doing both the Rou Quan 108 set and the Luohan Yi, Er, and Si Lu (too bad San Lu is missing!) CLEARLY shows their very close relationship. The Luohan sets might as well be Rou Quan sets, they share so many of postures and movements.

Back to Liu's set #5, it is the remaining mystery!
If Shi Yanzhuang's Er Lu set encompasses Liu's sets #3 to 5, then that solves that. But if it doesn't, and leaves out set #5, then we are back to the same question:

Set #5 doesn't match any order of sequential movements / postures in Shi Degen's Yi Lu and Er Lu sets at all, so where does it come from?

The only thing I can find (so far) that is essentially like it is the very last section of the second Shaolin Luohan Quan set in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which has some extra movements that continue past the end of Shi Degen's Yi Lu set.
So, if it is truly that, then, I guess Liu's #5 set is the final ending part of the Yi Lu set.

[RenDaHai]

Whew,

Ok so I think we are in agreement.

Yan zhuang yi lu, LZH 1+2 is pretty much the ultimate most complete version of, lets call it Da luohan quan. More complete than tagous version. I agree, i am probably one of the few people who know both, and i can assure you tagous version is very ugly in comparision.

I don't see relation to any style of pao quan, hong quan or tongbi though, so i really think this luohan quan may be unrelated to other luohan quans.

I will release a video of me doing this set when i get back home for christmas.

3,4 and 5 would certainly cover MOST of Degens Yi lu then and contain some extra....

These two forms are the main and most famous of luohan quan, so LZH has the most complete versions.

The question remains why is Degens version different (he was also one of LZH's masters). We know he did the Da luohan set (i have the book from YongWen, closer to Tagous than LZH's, second half is just like tagous, first half just like LZH). So we can assume TianXi has this set as well.

Yong Wen said that Degen could practice all 18 sets of luohan quan together without a break. Only one of the sets should be rou quan... Yong wen said that all the sets have specific character traits, so there is a ROu luohan, a Gang luohan (hard luohan) a Zui luohan (drunk, yong wen has this set) and many more.

I will need to find Tianxi's school and find out, might have to wait until next spring.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Whew,

Ok so I think we are in agreement.

Yan zhuang yi lu, LZH 1+2 is pretty much the ultimate most complete version of, lets call it Da luohan quan. More complete than tagous version. I agree, i am probably one of the few people who know both, and i can assure you tagous version is very ugly in comparision.

I don't see relation to any style of pao quan, hong quan or tongbi though, so i really think this luohan quan may be unrelated to other luohan quans.

I will release a video of me doing this set when i get back home for christmas.

3,4 and 5 would certainly cover MOST of Degens Yi lu then and contain some extra....

These two forms are the main and most famous of luohan quan, so LZH has the most complete versions.

The question remains why is Degens version different (he was also one of LZH's masters). We know he did the Da luohan set (i have the book from YongWen, closer to Tagous than LZH's, second half is just like tagous, first half just like LZH). So we can assume TianXi has this set as well.

Yong Wen said that Degen could practice all 18 sets of luohan quan together without a break. Only one of the sets should be rou quan... Yong wen said that all the sets have specific character traits, so there is a ROu luohan, a Gang luohan (hard luohan) a Zui luohan (drunk, yong wen has this set) and many more.

I will need to find Tianxi's school and find out, might have to wait until next spring.

Hmm, Degen's form in the book by Yongwen is the same exact same as in the book by Zhu Tianxi, Zhu's is just a reprint. I have both versions. Both use all the same drawings of Degen doing the form. Yongwen's book says Yi Lu on the cover, it is a gold cover, and Zhu's doesn't say that, and have a photo of himself now on the cover. Zhu's has more photos and other stuff in front and back of book.

I have another Shaolin book by Yongwen that has many of the forms we talked about. I know there are others too.

Do you know the names of any other of Yongwen's books? ISBN numbers?
Can you type in Chinese characters? Can you post the characters for his name?

Do you have background info on Shi Degen that you can post? His teachers names? I think I was told that he had learned Taizu Quan first, as did Zhu Tianxi, as did Shi Deqian (RIP), as did Shi Dejian, and some others.

Who were Shi Yanzhuang's teachers? All his forms are the same as Liu Zhenhai's from Luohan to Rou Quan.

Maybe Da Mei Hua Quan as in Luohan set #6 (VCD) was part of Shi Degen's 18 forms and thus is considered a Luohan form?

Did you know there is a giant 264 DVD set of Shaolin routines out? Liu Baoshan, and all the old timers are featured in them.
I had been getting as many as I can, but I am broke right now, I was laid off from my job I had for 25 years (those a s s h o l e s).
I think some of the sets we are trying to figure out the background of are featured in the set as well, and they could provide more info. They are in english and chinese, I learned many new historical facts from them.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The yongwen book i have of luohan quan is different. It is the lao luohan quan, tagou Da luohan quan. Haven't seen the Tianxi book but i thought you said it was the same as zhangshi jie's which is the other big luohan form.

You're right I meant Zhangshi Jie, but it's all the same form after all in all these books.


Degen was one of the only monks who stayed in shaolin all through all the problems of last century. He seemed to teach different things to different people and i think he knew everything that was practiced in shaolin over the last century as he was the last wuseng left at points. He probably trained with everyone famous over the last century. I know that for a brief period Wushanlin stayed at shaolin. Degen learned from him during this time. Wu shan lin is the master we get most of Pao quan from and Xinyiba. He died the same year as degen i think, only he was much much older.

Wu Shanlin's Pao Quan has Xinyiba hidden inside it. I've been told.


I know of the new DVD series. They have only published 108 so far. I wouldn't spend too much money on them if i were you. Every DVD is made like a VCD, irt doesn't have a menu. THey are all only an hour long, and if it goes over an hour they put it on 2 dvds... and DOUBLE the price. loong forms span to 4 dvds. But the B$%*&^ds put a 20 minute intro onto every disc, even the 2nd and 3rd discs. Plus they onlt give one performance of the form, from one angle, then to teach you the form they just show this one performance in slow motion, they don't break down the moves. So when an old master does it, it is next to useless as the moves are not clear. If they do one performance disc with lots of performances on get that instead. Really crap series. Still because i am in china they are quite cheap for me, i have about 50 so far.

If you want to buy any more ask me about them first because most are pants... One or too are good and have applications at the end, but most are really a waste of money. I have a load I don't even really want, maybe we can work something out.

Yeah, I agree they suck for the most part. I've been getting them as I find them if they are routines I am researching.

I hate how they have that darn intro over and over on the discs, and yes all could have fit on one disc.
The whole series was made to sell to overseas people really. And so of course they are taking advantage of people.

The Taizu Chang Quan ones are really awful. There a two different ones. They don't even do the forms correctly, they skip some movements and mess up other ones. I am surprised at the old guys who do the performances.
But, Liu Baoshan's interview on the first DVD in the series was good and informative.
The best part of them has been the interviews with the old guys, rather than the forms themselves. Some has led me to find some information through other sources based on what was said in the interviews.

[Wandering Yun]

I'm interested in picking up some of the Liu Zhen Hai VCD's, particularly the ones of him doing the Pao Quan sets. Any advice on where to pick them up? I've searched plumpub and cmaod to no avail...

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm interested in picking up some of the Liu Zhen Hai VCD's, particularly the ones of him doing the Pao Quan sets. Any advice on where to pick them up? I've searched plumpub and cmaod to no avail...

You're not looking very hard, that's where everyone I know, me included, bought them from.
under VCDs, click on Shaolin, and then Genuine Shaolin and there you will find them.

[Wandering Yun]

Yeah, not sure how I missed them last night. Thanks for the info.

[Eugene]

Hello everyone,

I dont know if these videos I saw yesterday and today helps to investigate the Luohan stuff, I came across these yesterday and found them very interesting.

I try to look for non you tube videos for the most part :)

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/SzFHarIoFjI/
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzY1Nzc5OTY=.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ1NDUxNjI4.html
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/BNlF4s7PK8U/
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjU4MDg4ODQ=.html
http://you.video.sina.com.cn/m/1344612414 ( I dont know this type of flow, maybe it is not Luo Han
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQyOTY0NTMy.html ( I believe Da Luohan Quan )


Peace Eugene

[shaolinche]

Here is a another version and video of Luo Han Quan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHKGs5Y7tMk

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao1SpJVK_5g

Some Lohan Quan. May you like it. Ive tried to find someone else but I couldnt find it.
May you know one ?

Kind regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/vO4DK0al0YQ/

Hey everyone,

The above link is an old video of luohan quan. Whats interesting is it is the classic form that is performed by Zhangshijie in his white robes. Except this version is a little different at the end. ALso the video appears older than the one by zhangshijie. The perfromance also includes a san lu luohan quan from the 18 forms of shaolin luohan. A form we have no other videos of.

WHo is the guy in this video? He must have learned this form from Degen Da Shi, or a direct disciple like Zhutianxi.... I can't understand what they are saying on the video, the sound is no good. Any one have a clue who this guy is?

Otherwise, good video of previously unseen luohan quan from shaolins Zhenchuan 18 luohan quan. The 3rd form on the end i can't identify.

[LFJ]

WHo is the guy in this video? He must have learned this form from Degen Da Shi, or a direct disciple like Zhutianxi.... I can't understand what they are saying on the video, the sound is no good. Any one have a clue who this guy is?

that is actually a young master zhu tianxi, she says so on the video several times.

[RenDaHai]

Hey LFJ,

Yeah, I thought it may be, but I wasn't sure. I couldn't hear anything on the video, the sound was really bad and really quit. **** laptop speakers.

Well its cool, now we can see the difference between Zhutianxi's Luohan quan and his students (zhangshijie). Wonder how the end got changed.....

[Xian]

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/vO4DK0al0YQ/

Hey everyone,

The above link is an old video of luohan quan. Whats interesting is it is the classic form that is performed by Zhangshijie in his white robes. Except this version is a little different at the end. ALso the video appears older than the one by zhangshijie. The perfromance also includes a san lu luohan quan from the 18 forms of shaolin luohan. A form we have no other videos of.

WHo is the guy in this video? He must have learned this form from Degen Da Shi, or a direct disciple like Zhutianxi.... I can't understand what they are saying on the video, the sound is no good. Any one have a clue who this guy is?

Otherwise, good video of previously unseen luohan quan from shaolins Zhenchuan 18 luohan quan. The 3rd form on the end i can't identify.


Hey just found this maybe it helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mkXKnH9B-E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAi39GwjeU


Kind Regards,
Xian

[XiaoHong]

@Rendahai,

Hey Rendahai, the video that you posted to start this thread with the Luohan man. have you found something new about this person?
Sometimes I watch it a few times, but the more I watch it the more it amazes me.

I think this guy has a higher level of kung fu then the 18 years olds that leave Shaolin these days.

Peace Eugene

[RenDaHai]

Hey Eugene,

I still haven't found out who it is. I was really into Luohan Quan a while back but am focusing more on the core Shaolin at the moment like Hong Quan. But I haven't forgotton. I'll find out one day.

[bawang]

i dont see whats so special about that guy, other than the pose he did was really fancy. i dont think its good to be distracted by superficial things.

[Xian]

i dont see whats so special about that guy, other than the pose he did was really fancy. i dont think its good to be distracted by superficial things.

Relativly effortless arm and leg work for example ?


Kind regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

A still remaining mystery in this thread is the Encyclopedia's small Luohan Quan at page 188 of vol.2 of the 4-volume set Encyclopedia. (http://www.scribd.com/collections/4133108) It is "Xiao/1Lu Luohan Quan" (Deyang's Xiao Luohan or Luohan Quan road 1 in Liu Zhenhai's VCDs). Just, after comparing the forms, the result is that the Encyclopedia's form misses a few postures, other postures are the same, just sometimes movements are performed to the opposite direction or with left/right exchanged (mirror imaged), which is usual among Shaolin practitioners. the body movements (shen fa) of this form is like Liu Zhenhai's form, which is not the old-fashioned Buddhistic (Luohan-like) shen fa of Luohan Quan.



Here I compare Encyclopedia's postures with Xiao Luohan Quan:


posture: equivalent figure in the Encyclopedia

1. Salute, praise Buddha
2. stand, cross palms down: fig.2
3. crouch, spread arms: fig.3
4. bow, double fists: fig.4
5. rest, palm cuts down: fig.5
6. bow, jab palm: fig.6
7. on horse, push hands down: fig.7
8. on bench, hold arms: Encyclopedia misses (luohan opens the book), but the transition movements are in figs.8-9
9. bow, spread fists: fig.10
10. bow, thrust fist: fig.11, but Encyclopedia misses the transitional cover and punches
11. transitory (xuebu), fists near ear and knee: fig.12
12. lift leg, double fists: fig.13
13. bow, push palm: Encyclopedia misses it and its transitional kick
14. bow, push double palms: Encyclopedia misses (play the Guitar)
15. on bench, double punches: Encyclopedia misses (luohan rings the bell)
16. rest, palm cuts down: fig.14
17. rest, cross fists down: fig.16, but Encyclopedia misses the transition movements (drunken luohan steps) but has only one transitional step in fig.15
18. bow, thrust fist: Encyclopedia misses
19. rest, cloud palm: Encyclopedia misses (luohan viewing)
20. rest, palm jabs down: Encyclopedia misses (backward interpolating palms) it and its transitional movements
21. sit, luohan sleeps (contemplates): figs.17-18
22. on horse, jab palms: fig.19
23. sit, praise Buddha: figs.20-21
24. crouch, palm cuts: fig.22, but Encyclopedia misses the repetition, while has the transition movement in fig.23
25. on bench, fists near ear and knee: figs.24-25
26. bow, double fists: fig.26
27. sit on mountain: figs.27-28

[SHemmati]

there was also a discussion by LFJ and Sal on Xiao/DiTang Mei Hua Quan, the versions that seem basically to be the same, but also seem to diverge at some points.

Shaolin has 2 Mei Hua Quans: Xiao and Da, where the Xiao Mei Hua Quan is also called DiTang Mei Hua Quan.

nonetheless, like I did for the Encyclopedia's Xiao/1Lu Luohan and the videos, it can be justified posture-by-posture that there's no divergence at all between these DiTang/Xiao Mei Hua Quans, they are all the same (of course being in different lineages, they have some Shen Fa (body movement) differences, but the differences are mainly in the Shen Fa and different forcing methods. the maneuver sequences are the same, and there are no major technical differences between them.)

i also see you've mixed up between the old luohan quan and the rather newer 18 luohan quan systems. this needs a correction.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Shemmati,

You are right, the Luohan on P.188 is the same one. I think we agreed on this before though...

But good comparison. Its just a slightly shorter version of the set.

There are 2 famous Luohan quans that appear everywhere. But after that every sect tends to disagree on Luohan QUan and it is a common name and there are very many different versions.

I Can't really see commonality between ChaShou Luohan (Lao Luohan/Xiao Luohan) and Da Luohan and I think they may be from different eras and ChaShou is certainly a more interesting set technically. ( Called Cha shou because of the crossed hands typical in this set. My version contains 9 crossed hands postures and you will find most versions contain a few).

As un update to the Luohan thread;

I still can't find the guy in green..... or who he is..... or which sect this Luohan belongs too. I am somewhat less interested in this style now, but I still feel the need to find who this guy is.

[SHemmati]

some mistake about shaolin luohan quan occurs almost everywhere. there are at least 2 different, yet related, luohan quan systems in shaolin:

1. the original old (lao) luohan quan, which has just 2 forms, the small luohan and the big luohan. it is said in the legends that this luohan quan system has been directly inspired from the luohan statues at Shaolin temple; this system is recognized by its unique luohan-imitating Buddhist postures and moves. i suppose this is the luohan quan that abbot Miaoxing learned from abbot Henglin and taught it extensively to monks and his lay disciples.

2. the 18 luohan quan(s), which are originally based on the old small and big luohan quans combined with other forms and extended up to 18 forms, one form for each of the 18 luohan characters, like the angry luohan, the deceitful luohan, barefoot luohan, long-eyebrow luohan, drunken luohan, etc. in contrast, these forms don't have the luohan Buddhist look of the old luohan. monk Degen taught (some different forms of) these luohan quan(s) to his disciples Liu Zhenhai, monk Yongwen, and Zhu Tianxi.

there are also several luohan combat sets of 108 or more combat methods. one should not mix up these luohan quans with one another.

[SHemmati]

based on the previous post, i've tried to distinguish the luohan quan forms:

small luohan quan, it has about 27 postures/36 moves in its original form, it's the same form that monk Deyang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzq3andXuMo) does, the first form of the encyclopedia. there are many videos for it.

big luohan quan, it's originally called jin tong xiao luohan (golden-child small luohan), it has about 36 postures in its original form, Liu Zhenhai has a video of it and this is a video clip of it (see all 3 parts of the video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEmo2aRoHjs). as mentioned, a last part has been added to extend it, as you see in monk Dejun's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHRsGJqfg8) and Deci's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtwilJ6rAbY) big luohan quan. this last part is not part of the old luohan quan, has no luohan posture or move, it's irrelevant.


another version of these small and big luohan quans are also practiced under the same names in Dengfeng area around shaolin. the difference is that these Dengfeng versions, as we already saw in the encyclopedia's small luohan quan, miss some core luohan postures and moves of the old luohan quan and have some sequences of moves added or removed. monk Degen used these forms as you see in Liu Zhenhai's 1st luohan quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggCi0CUM0jc), which is the Dengfeng version of small luohan quan, and in Zhu Tianxi's (Zhang Shijie's) 1st luohan quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu196QGLG1Q), which is the Dengfeng version of big luohan quan. you'll find other videos of these versions by searching small and big luohan quan names.

[SHemmati]

Liu Zhenhai's luohan quan:

Liu Zhenhai's VCDs are supposed to be parts of an 18 luohan quan system. the 1st form (YouTube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggCi0CUM0jc) is the Dengfeng small luohan form, the 2nd form (YouTube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_r9DoSZ038) is an unknown thing. the 3rd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV4r11xzk7U)+4th (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H036C7vo0a4)+5th forms (YouTube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7d2BuZ6uy8) are the Dengfeng big luohan quan extnded by a number of intermediary moves and an ending. the sequence and structure of the postures and shen fa (body moves) are something between the old big luohan (jin tong xiao luohan) and Dengfeng's style (read my previous comment). in the 3rd VCD everything goes almost well like Dengfeng's version, the 4th one also goes well but adds an end like pao quan, in beginnings of the 5th VCD, exactly where we expect it, there is the luohan listening to sutra (sword hands to the ears) posture, which is the next luohan posture following the previous parts in jin tong luohan. in this VCD we also see the other following moves of jin tong luohan quan, but in a different order and with some additional sequences of moves added. for example, the 3 slap kicks of the very end of jin tong luohan quan come in beginning of this VCD, displaced to before the luohan listening to sutra posture; and most interestingly, the extended whip arms in horse stance posture that follows these 3 kicks in the modern, extended version of big luohan quan comes in this VCD as well, just after these 3 slap kicks, to make sure that we are going through an extended big luohan form. this VCD ends with a right fist guarded by the left one in right gong bu (like Shi Deci's last part), then he crouches down to jump up for the final kick combo and it ends. Liu Zhenhai is simply teaching an extended version of Dengfeng small luohan quan in his 1st&2nd forms, and an extended version of Dengfeng big luohan quan in his 3rd+4th+5th forms.

[SHemmati]

update:
Miaoxing, in 1928, together with the manual of the 72 secret arts of Shaolin temple and some other handwritten manuals, has given a copy of Shaolin temple's luohan quan manual to his disciple Jin Jingzhong (金警钟)--usually called Jin En Zhong (金恩忠), in the Shaolin encyclopedia for example. Jingzhong has said that he has published that manual as a book. Shaolin Encyclopedia has also mentioned this in pages 270-271 of vol.1. if found, this book will show us Miaoxing's version.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Excellent work SHemmati, very good research.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some comments that come to mind:

Shi Degen learned Taizu Quan first, which is where the Hong Quan/Rou Quan/Tongbi Quan influence must come from. Taizu Quan legend is that it had 18 Lu (roads), perhaps Degen took all he know and created the 18 Roads Louhan sets himself. I think so. That is my hunch.

Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Quan book shows a rather complete 108 Luohan Quan set. It is almost the same, but more coherent than the Tagou 4 volume set that shows a Da Luohan set. Liu's version has many more movements and appears to fix holes in the Tagou book's version.

I think I have videos of the first 5 or 6 roads of Shi Degen's 18 Road Luohan, performed by a student of Zhu Tianxi.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What needs further research from what I first started long ago is the Shaolin 18 Hands Luohan Quan set that so many practice, also as a two man set.
It actually is originally from Luoyang, coming in from people that were originally from Shantung province. It is actually part of Hua Quan there.
It has a lot in common with Xingyi Quan, which originally was from Luoyang too.

[LFJ]

Something interesting RDH mentioned the other day. He suggested the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu (1 of 8) that Shi Deyang does and the LHSBS aka. Damo SBS that Shi Dejian and others do are different manifestations of the same thing.

Looking closely at the techniques within, I agree. It may be difficult to see if you aren't familiar with one or the other, but they are the same thing.

They start with switching cross hands to the front, Fuzi Gongshou (salute) then Baihu Xilian (white tiger washes face) , then Nili Bacong ("pulling scallions from the mud", aka. shushen). Toward the middle they have a 360 turn and 'brush' the thighs, Yema Fenzong ("wild horse parts mane"). There are other similarities throughout, following the same pattern.

Still, it is just road 1 of 8. I haven't seen anyone do the others. Wonder who might still have all 8 roads.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Something interesting RDH mentioned the other day. He suggested the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu (1 of 8) that Shi Deyang does and the LHSBS aka. Damo SBS that Shi Dejian and others do are different manifestations of the same thing.

Looking closely at the techniques within, I agree. It may be difficult to see if you aren't familiar with one or the other, but they are the same thing.

They start with switching cross hands to the front, Fuzi Gongshou (salute) then Baihu Xilian (white tiger washes face) , then Nili Bacong ("pulling scallions from the mud", aka. shushen). Toward the middle they have a 360 turn and 'brush' the thighs, Yema Fenzong ("wild horse parts mane"). There are other similarities throughout, following the same pattern.

Still, it is just road 1 of 8. I haven't seen anyone do the others. Wonder who might still have all 8 roads.

I was given a published manual that documented all 8 roads. I will get you the ISBN number if it has one. Interestingly, Road 1 is easily the Single, Double, and 3rd Palm change of Bagua Zhang style. It follows very exact. I compared both in tables and charts in my forthcoming book.
And Yin Fu style bagua Zhang overlaps greatly with material from these 8 roads. They share animal names for postures that ONLY appear in these Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou sets, such as bear and unicorn.

yeah, agreed Shi dejian's Damo SBS is pretty the same stuff.

[LFJ]

Cool. I'd like to see it. Knowing the author may help in tracking it down some place where it can be learned in full. It sounds like your book is getting pretty thick by now. :cool:

[LFJ]

Interestingly, Road 1 is easily the Single, Double, and 3rd Palm change of Bagua Zhang style.

Referring to what exactly? For example, Xianren Zhaiqie (Immortal Picks Eggplant), upper arm horizontal, lower hand palm up entrance? I see that in the palm changes.

In LHSBS yilu it is followed by Nili Bacong (Pulling Scallions from the Mud), aka. shushen. That double move also appears in Nanyuan Datongbiquan sanlu. (Been focusing on my TBQ recently) Basically, it is an intercepting entrance on the opponent to reach close-range and shutdown their arms/strike, then knockdown.

[Kellen Bassette]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

[Xian]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

No they were talking about the 18 Luohan Quan Roads not the Shibashou :)



Best regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

Hey Sal,

Yeah the very common 18 shou with the dui lian set, that is not shaolin, it is hua quan. But for some reason it has been absorbed.

Also BaBu lian huan quan is the same.

Then we have HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou, This was a popular set taught to people accross China, I suspect it may not be Shaolin temple,

Then we have the 8 road luohan 18 shou, THis the first road has an alternative name, 'small 4 rounds' It is from Zhen Xu and his nanyuan sect. There are a lot of versions though in ZhenXus sect it is called 4 rounds, not 18 shou. I have never seen the others except in the encyclopedia, i thought I saw one once but it may have been another version of road 1.

Then we have another 18 SHI (not shou). This is the one I learned form my master. it is in a book by LZH and WangXiGan. This I assume must be the Xi yuan 18 shou. It is the most spectacular of the sets visually and contains very interesting technques.


Sal, I also have my suspicions about the 18 road luohan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cool. I'd like to see it. Knowing the author may help in tracking it down some place where it can be learned in full. It sounds like your book is getting pretty thick by now. :cool:

少林罗汉十八手: 德虔 ISBN：7-81003-305-0

Obviously it was written by the late Shi Deqian, curator of the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
But looking through it, all of it is in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, I see it in all 3 editions.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

I have seen those, they are not the Luohan 18 Shou set of 8 Routines.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Referring to what exactly? For example, Xianren Zhaiqie (Immortal Picks Eggplant), upper arm horizontal, lower hand palm up entrance? I see that in the palm changes.

In LHSBS yilu it is followed by Nili Bacong (Pulling Scallions from the Mud), aka. shushen. That double move also appears in Nanyuan Datongbiquan sanlu. (Been focusing on my TBQ recently) Basically, it is an intercepting entrance on the opponent to reach close-range and shutdown their arms/strike, then knockdown.

The first section of Yi Lu can be mapped to the Single, Double, and Smooth Palm changes, which are known as the Lao Zhang, Old Palms, being the 3 that were first taught by Dong Haichuan, the other palm changes were added by his students, esp Chen and Yin Fu.

From Double Praying Hands to Pulling Palm, from Posture 1 to Posture 7.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

Yeah the very common 18 shou with the dui lian set, that is not shaolin, it is hua quan. But for some reason it has been absorbed.

Also BaBu lian huan quan is the same.

Then we have HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou, This was a popular set taught to people accross China, I suspect it may not be Shaolin temple,

Then we have the 8 road luohan 18 shou, THis the first road has an alternative name, 'small 4 rounds' It is from Zhen Xu and his nanyuan sect. There are a lot of versions though in ZhenXus sect it is called 4 rounds, not 18 shou. I have never seen the others except in the encyclopedia, i thought I saw one once but it may have been another version of road 1.

Then we have another 18 SHI (not shou). This is the one I learned form my master. it is in a book by LZH and WangXiGan. This I assume must be the Xi yuan 18 shou. It is the most spectacular of the sets visually and contains very interesting technques.


Sal, I also have my suspicions about the 18 road luohan.

Well, somewhere in Luoyang, Xingi Quan and this Luohan 18 Hands set became interrelated. The postural movements in the 18 Luohan Hands set (from Hua Quan) is essentially the same as the Five Elements sets AND the Animals from Xingyi Quan! In the Hua Quan's 18 Luohan Hands set: The first move is Metal (Pi quan), second is water (Zhuan Quan), the third is Wood (Bang Quan), the fourth is fire (Pao Quan), and the fifth is Earth (Heng Quan).
Also, there is Eagle, Tiger, Dragon, Hawk, etc etc. from the 10 / 12 animals of XYQ in embedded in the postural movements of this Hua Quan Luohan set. I can map them easily.

All you have to do is change the Shen Fa of this Hua Quan set and it becomes XYQ.

Same as as the first road of the 8 routines of Luohan Shiba Shou, just change the Shen Fa and it can be done as Bagua Zhang. The rest of the 8 Lu can be changed into Yin Fu BQZ without altering the sequance, just the Shen Fa!

[Sal Canzonieri]

the book 少林拳/少林拳丛书
isbn 7810032364

has a set called Er Lu Xiao Jia Shi Ba Shou that I would like to find out its origins or connections to the other Shaolin Luohan sets.

[Sal Canzonieri]

from my book: info about true origin of Shaolin Louhan 18 hands set (two man set) and Ba Bu Lian Huan set:

Luoyang is known for many martial arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Longfeng’s time is called the ‘Long Men’ (龍門) – ‘Dragon’s Gate or School’ from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the ‘Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan’ system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around 1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan.

Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called ‘Long Men Quan’ (Dragon Gate Fist) that is also practiced with the same exact movements by the Cai family lineage of ‘Hua (華) Quan’ – ‘Glorious Boxing’ style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the name ‘Luohan Shiba Shou’ – ‘Luohan 18 Hands’. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey, Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others.

The opening five movements that correspond to these animals are very similar to the Five Elements movements of Pi Quan, Zhuan Quan, Beng Quan, Pao Quan, and Heng Quan, which are foundational to Xinyi Quan / Xingyi Quan. The first four postures correspond faithfully. Originally in ancient times there were only four elements used, much later Heng (earth) was added. In Xing Yi, Heng (earth) is supposed to be all the other elements together as one, so it is at the center of the four elements. This is true of the fifth and sixth postures, if done successively they indeed correspond to the movements of Heng (earth) Quan as well. The rest of the postures correspond well to Dragon, Tiger, Horse, Hawk, Swallow, and other animal movements seen in Xinyi and Xingyi. Being that this set, originally from Hua Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Longfeng’s art reached Ma Xueli of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.

[LFJ]

Not really familiar with Baguazhang myself, but I've seen you mention that connection before, Sal. Sounds interesting. Would love to see a breakdown.

[RenDaHai]

Interesting,

Luoyangs Tong bei is famous locally, unfortunately I never got to study any.

I always kind of ignored that hua quan 18 shou and BaBu lian huan quan because I didn't think they fit in so well but after reading that I will give them another look, I still remember them just about. Thats cool to know!

[RenDaHai]

SO what do we know about Luohan 18 Shou now?

Hua Quan Luohan 18 shou --- prob most common, good but not Shaolin temples 18 shou,

HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou --- Unusual, not characteristic of Shaolin, prob. from outside

Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou --- Also called small 4 rounds, damo 18 shou, Probably the 18 shou of the Nanyuan sect, 8 roads in total, so far we have books of the others but no performence, only the first road, not uncommon.

Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, Also practiced by me. Probably the Xiyuan pai version of the ancient set.

I think it is just these right? In which case there are not as many as we thought, Xiyuan sect has just 1 and Nanyuan has the 8 road set.

Total, 11 sets called Luohan 18 shou.

EDIT: In fact 12 sets, I have just remembered Shi Yan Zhuang Practiced a Luohan 18 shou that was nothing like any of the above, more qi gong like. This confuses matters.

[SHemmati]

first of all, thanks guys for the information on that 2-man set Luohan 18 Shou form. here's a video of He Jungang performing and instructing it as a Hua Quan master:

Hua Quan Luohan 18 Shou-2 person form (by He Jungang) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtFpWuWiPQ)

they call this form '18 Shou' because the first/main/lef-hand-side performer--the blue guy in this video, who is Jungang himself--uses 18 techniques throughout the form. the second/assistant/right-hand-side performer techniques are, however, something different. there's a book published on this form, which demonstrates the 18 techniques and the 2-person form in comprehensive detail.

though i know the form in much detail, but i've never been familiar with Hua Quan. just, i've always thought that the form, for both the performers cannot fit to the SongShan Shaolin system, not just because of the performance, but the technical content and its body movements (shen fa) follow a northern long-fist style career and don't seem like SongShan Shaolin principles! at least, this is what a non-knowledgeable practitioner like me can say on it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

first of all, thanks guys for the information on that 2-man set Luohan 18 Shou form. here's a video of He Jungang performing and instructing it as a Hua Quan master:

Hua Quan Luohan 18 Shou (by He Jungang) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtFpWuWiPQ)

they call this form '18 Shou' because the first/main/lef-hand-side performer--the blue guy in this video, who is Jungang himself--uses 18 techniques throughout the form. the second/assistant/right-hand-side performer techniques are, however, something different. there's a book published on this form, which demonstrates the 18 techniques and the 2-person form in comprehensive detail.

though i know the form in much detail, but i've never been familiar with Hua Quan. just, i've always thought that the form, for both the performers cannot fit to the SongShan Shaolin system, not just because of the performance, but the technical content and its body movements (shen fa) follow a northern long-fist style career and don't seem like SongShan Shaolin principles! at least, this is what a non-knowledgeable practitioner like me can say on it.

yeah, I have some books on these sets, both the single and two man versions, old books that don't have ISBN numbers. One book has the second side of the Babu Lian Huan set, for the 2 man version too. And a huge staff set that goes with these two sets. Most people didn't know till relatively recently that these sets are from Hua Quan originally and Shaolin adopted them.

The second side, which is very different from the first side (of the two man version) is a lot like Crazy Devil sets from Liuhe Quan in Shaolin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ren, there are some videos out of some other Luohan 18 Hands sets, they are in the back area of the Shaolin Encyclopedia though.

[Sal Canzonieri]

SO what do we know about Luohan 18 Shou now?

Hua Quan Luohan 18 shou --- prob most common, good but not Shaolin temples 18 shou,

HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou --- Unusual, not characteristic of Shaolin, prob. from outside

Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou --- Also called small 4 rounds, damo 18 shou, Probably the 18 shou of the Nanyuan sect, 8 roads in total, so far we have books of the others but no performence, only the first road, not uncommon.

Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, Also practiced by me. Probably the Xiyuan pai version of the ancient set.

I think it is just these right? In which case there are not as many as we thought, Xiyuan sect has just 1 and Nanyuan has the 8 road set.

Total, 11 sets called Luohan 18 shou.

EDIT: In fact 12 sets, I have just remembered Shi Yan Zhuang Practiced a Luohan 18 shou that was nothing like any of the above, more qi gong like. This confuses matters.

Yep, the Hua Quan 18 Louhan is from outside Shaolin and came in later, with Babu Liahuan Quan.

I don't know what the heck the HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou comes from. It is nothing like any Shaolin I have seen, I has to be from outside too.

The Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, is equally bizarre and not practiced at Shaolin anymore, it is only in the outside areas, like Dengfeng, etc. I is supposed to be from the 5 Animals system of Baiyufeng and Li Sou.

That leaves the Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou, which seems to have the most important thing about it, it was a strong influence on Bagua Zhang, being the only possible connection to Dong Haichuan's Luohan Quan root that was often said of him.

[Xian]

Maybe he learned Luohan Quan before studying Bagua. In the past it was said that you are only allowed to learn Bagua, when you had mastered another Martial Art before. Some took their previous Martial Arts as a Basic Template to understand the Bagua and changed it a bit according to that.


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

luohan 18 hands has outstanding importance among all the Shaolin forms. it's said to be the oldest set of relics from the Sui dynasty (581-618) up to the Ming dynasty. monk Jue Yuan, Li Sou and Bai Yufeng developed the 18 techniques of original luohan 18 hands into 72, and then into 173 techniques, and Jue Yuan also made up some 18 Luohan system. these have happened much later than the Song dynasty before which the old luohan quan has been created. luohan quan is said to have been directly developed out of luohan 18 hands. just, the luohan 18 hands has got many (18, more or less) forms since these activities and the Ming dynasty. they don't mention any specific form of it.

[LFJ]

This may just be the best performance of Xiaoluohanquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06fJXJ30_rU) I've ever seen, performed by Shi Deyang's nephew at last year's National Shaolinquan Tournament. Keeping the cameraman on his toes. :D

[RenDaHai]

Yep, the Hua Quan 18 Louhan is from outside Shaolin and came in later, with Babu Liahuan Quan.

I don't know what the heck the HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou comes from. It is nothing like any Shaolin I have seen, I has to be from outside too.

The Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, is equally bizarre and not practiced at Shaolin anymore, it is only in the outside areas, like Dengfeng, etc. I is supposed to be from the 5 Animals system of Baiyufeng and Li Sou.

That leaves the Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou, which seems to have the most important thing about it, it was a strong influence on Bagua Zhang, being the only possible connection to Dong Haichuan's Luohan Quan root that was often said of him.

Agreed on Hua Quan and Hushanzi men

Well, I know the one by LZH and WXG is bizarre, but I know it was practiced in Shaolin pre 1928 but it is also a particularly special form in our sect so kept a little close. This form really has that Luohan quan feeling and character.

The thing is the ZhenXu one is the one that often has other names. It goes by the name 'Small 4 circuits' 小四回. It is certainly part of an important system, and excellent techniques. But It doesn't quite feel like Luohan. Certainly this is an entire subset in itself if you know all 8.

Does anyone have a line on anyone who knows all 8? I know of a ZhenXuPai based in Beijing that might have it.... Definately needs a closer look.

[LFJ]

What I like about the performance is how he is blindingly fast yet not at all sloppy. Every posture is done perfectly even at such speed. Nothing is cut or altered to make it faster. He's just that good. Beautiful performance, for me. :)

This has been his favorite set for a long time. I've watched him develop it over the years and it just keeps getting faster, yet without alteration. I'm impressed, because I've tried to follow. It's a very tiring set, even so short. I remember a few years ago I was training this set with them and they were pushing me to go faster and faster. I got to the xuanfengjiao to zuopan and just fell over backward. Dead. :p

[LFJ]

The thing is the ZhenXu one is the one that often has other names. It goes by the name 'Small 4 circuits' 小四回. It is certainly part of an important system, and excellent techniques. But It doesn't quite feel like Luohan. Certainly this is an entire subset in itself if you know all 8.

I think I can explain this one now, since my lineage and experience is mainly from Zhenxu's teachings. The reason it doesn't quite feel like Luohanquan is because it's not! It is actually an extension of Nanyuan Tongbiquan.

I've always been told that in our sect the subsystem of main importance is (Nanyuan) Tongbiquan, considered to be our Kanjia Quanfa, but I found it odd that Shi Deyang made instructionals of both Xiao & Da Tongbiquan with minor but no major difference to how it's taught to legit students.

So, since I've learned the 3 Xiao & 3 Da Tongbiquan sets and the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu set from the same source, I've analyzed the content, posture names, and applications and found this "Luohan" to be completely Nanyuan Datongbiquan material. It can be placed seamlessly onto the other sets as if an extension, but it contains much more devastating applications even in its simplicity, which leads me to believe this is actually our "Kanjia" Tongbiquan I was told about. Hence it is often given different names, which further obscures its identity, and is extremely hard to find. It's a well guarded system within a rather small sect. I think the first road has been poached and the shenfa altered to look more "Luohan" by the folks who do it as Damo Shiba Shou with the Luohan Shuijiao at the end.

I'll give a breakdown so you can follow me:

First of all, the set opens and closes with the Fuzi Gongshou cross hands "salute". This is the common Nanyuan salute which is also used to open and close the roads of Datongbiquan.

The particular shushen posture in both sets, called Nili Bacong (pulling scallions from the mud), is done with open palms on the same side of the body. In both sets this immediately follows an action called Xianren Zhaiqie (immortal picks eggplant) which is done in gongbu with the lead hand 'shading' above the head and the rear hand inserting below with qiangshou (spear hand). This is like a Heihu Taoxin (black tiger rips out heart) action. It is followed in both sets by Nili Bacong.

Then there is the double expanding elbow action (Bengzhou) which is a repeated feature of Nanyuan Datongbiquan. It also appears in this set done the same way. Also featuring is a unique double palm action called Tuidaoqiang (pushing over the wall), done with both hands slightly forward and out-turned, as if attacking the hips or jaw.

Lastly, before ending in the Fuzi Gongshou salute, as with each road of Nanyuan Datongbiquan, this set also does Qianda Houzai which in gongbu is a strike to the front perpendicular to the body and a drawing back of the other elbow. It looks kind of like the Kaigong (drawing bow) posture.

Personally, I've been running from the Datongbiquan sanlu 'Fuzi Gongshou' ending posture straight into this set, repeating on the other side at the end, as with the other roads and it is clearly the same style. The rest of the roads repeat a lot of characteristic features of Xiaotongbiquan, including postures and monkey actions, plus a lot more unique things. (They also share some common postures with the 13 sets of Kanjiaquan which also share more commonalities with Nanyuan Tongbiquan, but that's another thing we've discussed previously.)

Shi Zhenxu also created two roads of Xinyi Changchui. These sets are also pretty close to the rest of our Tongbiquan material. It repeats the 360 lihetui, haidipao, chuaitui sequence from Datongbiquan sanlu, and has a high usage of qiangshou as in Xiaotongbiquan, as well as the rooster claw and actions. Although modern, that further confirms the Dong Cheng Tongbi monkey/ Ji Jike Xinyi rooster connection as discussed in the Changhuxinyimen thread. This is what our Nanyuan Tongbiquan comes from, and I find no other logical explanation than for the 8lu Luohan Shiba Shou to in fact be our Kanjia Tongbiquan. It seems pretty obviously to me now. I'll look more into when I get a chance.

[RenDaHai]

Hmmm,

THis is interesting. I have always heard there to be a secret 24 posture tongbei quan, literally called michuan tongbei 24 shi. COuld be linked with this?

It would kind of makes sense but also to call it 18 shou, The 18 shou of our sect is also sort of our KanJia QUan, that is why it is so so rare to see.

Either way it polarises these into nanyuan and xiyuan again. WHich means we have pretty much identified the 18 shou sets with the exception of one set I saw Yan ZHuang do which was done in one spot more qigong like.

Certainly I have always seen it practiced by people who also practice the nanyuan xiao Tongbei quan.

Worth searching for the ZhenXu Pai. The full set would be invaluable.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, LFJ, have you looked also at the remaining 8 sets of these 18 Hands?

Are they also like Nanyuan Tongbei Quan?

That would be interesting, if they are not, then it would seem that only the first road is material from Nanyuan Tongbei Quan, which would also imply that it came first.

Ren, the 24 Road Tongbei Quan is from the style of Tongbei Quan that influenced the formation of Chen Taiji Quan, it isn't like the Shaolin Tongbei Quan.

That's another thing, Tongbi versus Tongbei.

Tongbi is Ming and early Qing times was the equivalent of saying Chang Quan Pigua. It was a name for Long fist that came from military Pigua, hence it was done "through the arms".

Tongbei Quan is through the back, and that is a style developed by Dong Cheng in late 1500s/early 1600s, a forerunner to Chen and Zhaobao Taiji Quan, that mixed what he learned from two different sources:
1 - Shaolin arts - he learned Da Hong Quan, taizu Chang quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan (MAYBE Tongbi Quan) and Hong staff.
2 - Taoist 13 postures boxing (which comes from Shaolin Rou Quan anyways) and Taoist Straight Sword.

[SHemmati]

yeah, very clear. nanyuan tong bi quan is very similar to the 1st shaolin luohan 18 hands. that could have a simple description, many bigger forms are directly extentions of the smaller older forms. like small tong bi quan which is based on small hong quan.

luohan 18 hands and luohan quan are 2 different systems. you should not expect one to feel like the other. luohan 18 hands roots are much older and look extremely simpler, luohan quan is highly advanced and imitates Buddha. these are 2 totally different moods.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmmm,

THis is interesting. I have always heard there to be a secret 24 posture tongbei quan, literally called michuan tongbei 24 shi. COuld be linked with this?

It would kind of makes sense but also to call it 18 shou, The 18 shou of our sect is also sort of our KanJia QUan, that is why it is so so rare to see.

Either way it polarises these into nanyuan and xiyuan again. WHich means we have pretty much identified the 18 shou sets with the exception of one set I saw Yan ZHuang do which was done in one spot more qigong like.

Certainly I have always seen it practiced by people who also practice the nanyuan xiao Tongbei quan.

Worth searching for the ZhenXu Pai. The full set would be invaluable.

Ren, what are the exact Chinese characters and English from the pinyin for:
the Zhen Xu Xuan Tian Luohan 18 shou,

[RenDaHai]

Ren, what are the exact Chinese characters and English from the pinyin for:
the Zhen Xu Xuan Tian Luohan 18 shou,

My mistake, it is 'Xian' Tian. It is not referred to as Zhen Xu but I call it that to identify it as he is the one who passed it on. Usually just Xian Tian Luohan 18 Shou

Zhen Xu is his name: 贞绪

Xian Tian is 'Innate': 先天

Luohan, you know, Saint: 罗汉

18 Shou, 18 hands: 十八手

ALternatively called : Xiao Si Hui, 小四回, 4 small circles.

先天罗汉十八手 or 小四回

[RenDaHai]

Lets not forget we still have the Luohan 18 shou which I practice and is in the book posted.

This most definately does look and feel like luohan.

On an interesting side note in my sect it is sometimes called Luohan 18 SHI, as opposed to shou. Shi 式.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks Ren!

[LFJ]

Hmm, LFJ, have you looked also at the remaining 8 sets of these 18 Hands?

Are they also like Nanyuan Tongbei Quan?

Yes. As I said: "The rest of the roads repeat a lot of characteristic features of Xiaotongbiquan, including postures and monkey actions, plus a lot more unique things. (They also share some common postures with the 13 sets of Kanjiaquan which also share more commonalities with Nanyuan Tongbiquan, but that's another thing we've discussed previously.)"

If you are familiar with the 3 Xiao & 3 Da Tongbiquan, the other roads definitely look like an extension of this same subsystem.

[LFJ]

yeah, very clear. NanYuan Tong Bi quan is very similar to the 1st road of Luohan ShiBa Shou, aka Xian Tian Luohan ShiBa Shou, etc. BUT we know that that Luohan 18 Shou is from the first eras of Shaolin kung fu formation, about Sui Dynasty era, much before HanTong and the story of formation of Tong Bi/Bei quan in Song Dynasty era. so, while we know that road 1 of Luohan 18 Shou is much older than Tong Bi quan and other styles and so cannot be based on them, the case here is, for sure, that NanYuan Tong Bi quan is directly based on road 1 of Luohan 18 Shou.


About the 18 posture, road1, Luohan ShiBa Shou form:
that Luohan 18 Shou form is consisted of the 18 most famous techniques of Luohan 18 Shou based on which the 27 posture Lao/Xiao/YiLu Luohan quan and other Luohan forms were later created, the 18 postures that were also later developd into 72 and 173 by Jue Yuan and others. this is told in most Shaolin lineages. even your master, shi Deyang, in his instructional video of this Luohan 18 Shou (that i linked above) clearly says that the 18 postures of this Luohan ShiBa Shou are those 18 famous ancient Luohan techniques.
the reason why it doesn't seem like Luohan Quan is that those Luohan 18 postures have been created much earlier than Luohan Quan, they are primitive movements. Luohan postures belong to the much more advanced system of Luohan quan, which again must be said that have been developed much later than creation of those 18 Luohan ShiBa Shou postures. so we must not expect those 18 primitive movements to feel like Luohan quan.

Keep in mind, Luohan Shiba Shou as a name is as common as styles being named after Damo. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except that it is obviously Buddhist/Shaolin related!

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

Luohan Shiba Shou yilu as described is mainly Nanyuan Datongbiquan technique. Other roads are more Xiaotongbiquan. As both of these came from outside created in the late Ming Dynasty, it doesn't make sense for the same technique base to have been created within Shaolin centuries earlier. This Luohan Shiba Shou series at the earliest may be placed somewhere between Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan and Datongbiquan.

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking instructional videos as reference for history! Shi Deyang basically just repeats common Shaolin legends in the videos, rather than discussing factual history. In most cases it is pretty easy to debunk the legends with a little research.

Someone I know asked Shi Xingsen (who is in some Liu Zhenhai instructionals) why the sets they show differ in the videos and books they made. He said the books are often more accurate because people who are really serious will look to books for research purposes. The videos in most cases are just for hobbyists, so they just have watered-downed versions of the sets with a word or two of basic legends for the "formation".

By the way, in Shi Deqian's individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou series he gives quite a different story on the origin of the name which isn't about statues. If there is a much older Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou system, this can't be it. It's Nanyuan Tongbiquan all the way through.

[SHemmati]

there are many legend-like stories in Shaolin oral tradition. that's normal. however, sometimes technical analysis compliments these stories as true. the divine simplicity of the 1st luohan 18 hands could be a sign of it being at least some hundreds of years older than the others. it conforms with the stories and the properties of the historical era the Shaolin lineages ascribe it to. in case of such accordance, it's worth considering those stories.

[LFJ]

now, as a check, let's refer to the stories, if anything works, we say the story is likely to be true, otherwise it's most likely wrong. OK? that's why i mentioned those stories, because they say the road 1 belongs to the ancient times of about Sui Dynasty. it then has been developed into a form, still called Luohan ShiBa Shou, to the Tang era, it has been developed into 36 postures, then into 173 postures by Jue Yuan and others in the early Song Dynasty era. most the references say this, like the 4-volume encyclopedia (i don't have the 2-vol set and don't know if they've changed the story or not.).

I think we can stop here. In the encyclopedia, it says it was expanded to 324 movements, in 18 roads. The individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou also says it is just showing the first 9 roads of the series. But we know for a fact the 9th road in the Encyc. is from Huaquan, a style outside of Shaolin. In the individual book the 9th road is Hushanzimen, again unrelated to the other 8 roads.

Basically, the history given is for the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou, which this 8 road series is not.


here if we say NanYuan Pai kung fu is technically based on Luohan ShiBa Shou, this is a loose guess that seems rational, at least, at the first sight.

Based on the contents of the 8 road series being Nanyuan Tongbiquan, and the history of this Tongbiquan entering Shaolin, I'd have to say this Luohan Shiba Shou series is an extension of the Tongbiquan subsystem developed within in the Nanyuan, becoming the Kanjia system. I'll have to confirm, but it's clearly the same style and era based on its contents, Tongbi monkey, Xinyi rooster...

[Sal Canzonieri]

Keep in mind, Luohan Shiba Shou as a name is as common as styles being named after Damo. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except that it is obviously Buddhist/Shaolin related!

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

Luohan Shiba Shou yilu as described is mainly Nanyuan Datongbiquan technique. Other roads are more Xiaotongbiquan. As both of these came from outside created in the late Ming Dynasty, it doesn't make sense for the same technique base to have been created within Shaolin centuries earlier. This Luohan Shiba Shou series at the earliest may be placed somewhere between Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan and Datongbiquan.

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking instructional videos as reference for history! Shi Deyang basically just repeats common Shaolin legends in the videos, rather than discussing factual history. In most cases it is pretty easy to debunk the legends with a little research.

Someone I know asked Shi Xingsen (who is in some Liu Zhenhai instructionals) why the sets they show differ in the videos and books they made. He said the books are often more accurate because people who are really serious will look to books for research purposes. The videos in most cases are just for hobbyists, so they just have watered-downed versions of the sets with a word or two of basic legends for the "formation".

By the way, in Shi Deqian's individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou series he gives quite a different story on the origin of the name which isn't about statues. If there is a much older Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou system, this can't be it. It's Nanyuan Tongbiquan all the way through.

okay, so let's say it these 8 sets were developed around the same time as the other Nanyuan Shaolin sets. maybe they were created first before the nanyuan tongbei quan sets (lets' called the xiyuan version Tongbi quan), is that possible?

When Bai Yu Feng, Li Sou, and Jue Yuan went back to Shaolin, it is said there was hardly anyone there. They looked through all the library materials to create the new Shaolin Quan. It can't be the 1641 date (when the massacre by warlord Li Jiyu happened), it has to be before that, back when the Mongols were in power. People claim they were from the later Ming times, which makes no sense since there was plenty of martial arts there then, except right after the massacre. But Dong Cheng was from the late 1500s to mid 1600s, he learned Shaolin Quan before the massacre from students of Bai Yu Feng. Since he learned Hong Quan, staff, Taizu Chang quan, ROu Quan, and Pao Quan and he called what he practiced Tong BI Quan, it must be Xiyuan Shaolin that he learned.
After the massacre, 1641 (I think), Shaolin would need a reconstruction and hence the nanyuan gate Shaolin sets were developed. Okay, so it stands to reason they would want to develop some Luohan 18 hands since that was what Shaolin was known for. They had to get info from the countryside to do this reconstruction. So, what did the countryside Shaolin influenced folk have?

After this massacre time period, Dong Cheng called his art Tongbei Quan, because he had learned some Taoist material, such as their sword fighting and empty hand sets that were based on the 13 Postures, which was from originally Shaolin Rou Quan anyways (what dates for Rou Quan are in the Shaolin Encyclopdia)?

Now most important of all, the Luohan Siba Shou 8 Routines very clearly has all the animals and proto-typical postural movement material that Yinfu and Cheng Tinghua bagua Zhang was developed from. It is very very like Yinfu Bagua zhang, Cheng's came later and there is some overlap but not as much as Yinfu Bagua.
So, Dong Haichuan and Yinfu must have both practiced what they were calling Luohan first. How did they get them?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, Li Sou couldn't have been from the Song dynasty.
1 - there was no need to reconstruct Shaolin quan then, Shaolin flourished till thee early mongol invasion, when it was destroyed (yet again).
Also, Zhao Kuangyin had his generals go to Shaolin to help them develop what became the Xiyuan Shaolin stuff. They did this to standardize Shaolin Quan and use the manuals for testing.

2 - there are written records in various manuals who the students were of these 3 people and two of these students (Guo Wanqin and Zhang Wenkui) were Dong Cheng's teachers and were contempories of Wang Zhonyue and of Zhang (whatever his first name I forgot, ha) of Taoist martial arts fame. AND all these people taught Dong Cheng, and we can know when Dong Cheng of Qianzi temple lived since there were lots of mentions of him in manuals of the time, AND that his student Dong Bingqian was Chen Wangting's teacher too. And he taught Chen around the time of the massacre. Which brings us back to the late 1640.

Also, in the Wang Village Six Harmony Divine Spear manual in circulation in the Huaiqing area, there was an introduction written by Wang Zhaoyu, the ‘Six Harmony Spear’ expert of the Jiaqing era [1796 – 1820] which states, ‘…when old Dong [Bingqian] came north, he possessed two consummate skills: boxing and spear. For spear, he practiced ‘Six Harmony Divine Spear’; for boxing, he practiced the ‘13 Postures’. He hid away to practice the Tao, and transmitted his spear skills to the neighboring Wang Village, and his boxing skills to Chen Village in Wen County. His school of martial arts came originally from Zhang Sanfeng’. This same statement is made in the ‘Origins Preface’ of the Wang Village Spear Manual written by Wang Anmin in the Qianlong period (1735 – 1796). Dong Bingqian was student of Dong Cheng, and he directly taught Chen Wangting and others.



So, what is the most logical years that Jue, Bai and Li Sou were at Shaolin?

Not a 1,000 years earlier in the Song that's for sure.

late 1500s?

Don't have my source material handy, since most of my stuff is packed up fo rmoving.

[SHemmati]

I think we can stop here. In the encyclopedia, it says it was expanded to 324 movements, in 18 roads. The individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou also says it is just showing the first 9 roads of the series. But we know for a fact the 9th road in the Encyc. is from Huaquan, a style outside of Shaolin. In the individual book the 9th road is Hushanzimen, again unrelated to the other 8 roads.

Basically, the history given is for the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou, which this 8 road series is not.

encyclopedia has just listed them, different forms with similar names, that's it. like it has done for the xinyi or pao quan forms, unrelated forms listed one after the other under the same name. however, those first 8 forms are technically and systematically linked.

[r.(shaolin)]

Now most important of all, the Luohan Siba Shou 8 Routines very clearly has all the animals and proto-typical postural movement material that Yinfu and Cheng Tinghua bagua Zhang was developed from. It is very very like Yinfu Bagua zhang, Cheng's came later and there is some overlap but not as much as Yinfu Bagua.
So, Dong Haichuan and Yinfu must have both practiced what they were calling Luohan first. How did they get them?

Where can one see some of this set on the web?
r.

[SHemmati]

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.


Shaolin xiyuan tong bi quan is originally related to general Han Tong's teachings. the Nanyuan small tong bi is based on this older system, mixed based on small hong quan ang monkey methods. Dong Cheng's tong bei quan is some daoist style and has no relevance whatsoever except a similar name with shaolin tong bi quan. their two totally different styles with similar names, that's it. however, i'm going to post this into tong bi quan thread. it contains important information on the eras.

[LFJ]

But Dong Cheng was from the late 1500s to mid 1600s, he learned Shaolin Quan before the massacre from students of Bai Yu Feng. Since he learned Hong Quan, staff, Taizu Chang quan, ROu Quan, and Pao Quan and he called what he practiced Tong BI Quan, it must be Xiyuan Shaolin that he learned.

Yes, Xiyuan. I think so. I also think his monkey material quite possibly came from the Yuanhouquan set, which shares the same renshou technique and a high usage of qiangshou, plus considering its connection to Zhao Kuangyin and Xiyuan as well. Although his Tongbiquan, when brought to Shaolin, came into the Nanyuan. Xiyuan would have already had Han Tong's Tongbiquan.

However, he must have been earlier than that. Based on records of his students through the generations, he should have lived during the reign of Jiajing (1521-1567), not much early than Qi Jiguang (1528-1587).

As for Jueyuan, Bai Yufeng, and Li Sou, their students were teachers of Dong Cheng. They should have been in Shaolin, teaching around the reign of Zhengde (1505-1521). By the way, in some cases the name Jinnaluo Wang is used as a persona to actually refer to Bai Yufeng. The earliest mention of Jinnaluo Wang as a saint is on a stele from 1517. Which should be roughly the time Bai Yufeng was there.


okay, so let's say it these 8 sets were developed around the same time as the other Nanyuan Shaolin sets. maybe they were created first before the nanyuan tongbei quan sets (lets' called the xiyuan version Tongbi quan), is that possible?

We also use the 臂 (arm) character, which can also be pronounced bei, but it is not the 背 (back) character. Both Xiyuan and Nanyuan use the same character as far as I know.

Anyway, I see a ton of Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan in the 8 sets, but also Datongbiquan, particularly in the first set. The technique of Xiaotongbiquan matches Dong Cheng's style (Shaolin + monkey), but the Datongbiquan matches Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster. Dong Cheng is said to have visited and taught at Shaolin Monastery at a time. So Xiaotongbiquan could be from that time, or when Ji Jike brought the same system that he learned. But Datongbiquan which contains rooster elements must come from Ji Jike's teachings. So it's mid-1500's at earliest for Xiaotongbiquan and early/mid-1600's at earliest for Datongbiquan.

Since the Luohan Shiba Shou sets appear to be mostly Xiaotongbi technique, with some Datongbi (road 1 is uniquely Datongbi), I would place it somewhere in between, or after both as an expansion in the Nanyuan as the Kanjia system either way.

[LFJ]

albeit, i think we all agree that if there's any authentic Shaolin Luohan ShiBa Shou, it's nothing outside of those 8 roads.

I don't think I would agree! Why? The whole series is uniquely Nanyuan Tongbiquan. Nothing about it really strikes me as Luohan at all. I think the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou is something quite different.


so far, three possibilities; if any, only one of these 3 can be true.:

1. Luohan ShiBa Shou is based on NanYuan Tong Bi quan;
2. NanYuan Pai Kung fu is based on Luohan ShiBa Shou;
3. NanYuan Pai and other styles could be based on the first road of Luohan ShiBa Shou, and then NanYuan people have developed the other 7 roads of Luohan ShiBa Shou, under any title, whether Luohan ShiBa Shou or as their special Tong Bi quan, of course if have not been created previously, like by Jue Yuan or at other eras, i don't know.

Since the first road is Datongbi, the one with rooster elements that must have come from Ji Jike, which is later than Dong Cheng and his monkey Xiaotongbiquan, I don't think you could say that developed from the first road.

The only option that really seems possible to me is number 1.

Ji Jike's rooster concept was new and unrefined. Another thing it turned into in Shaolin was the loose techniques of Xinyiba. It was simple stuff. I think it is possible the simple Road 1 was Ji Jike's material. Then the Datongbiquan sets came from that, as well as the rest of the roads drawing from this and the Xiaotongbi material from Dong Cheng, that Ji Jike would have also taught.

[SHemmati]

I don't think I would agree! Why? The whole series is uniquely Nanyuan Tongbiquan. Nothing about it really strikes me as Luohan at all. I think the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou is something quite different.

wow! so you think those 8 forms are not luohan 18 hands! then what is shaolin luohan 18 hands?

[RenDaHai]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Where can one see some of this set on the web?
r.

There are none. Shi Deyang does the first road, with the movements out of order from the Shaolin official version in the encylcopedia and from the way I learned it. And he does it with all external looking shen fa, so it is unrecognizable unless you know where to look.

[Sal Canzonieri]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

6 full length sets, that's great logic. cool. Such good detectives here, ha.
Then those Shaolin sets fall into place of LZH.

AND, taking that concept of 324 postures = 6 full sets, then that's why we have only seen 6 sets from Shi Degen style Luohan Quan that Zhu Tianxi does. Its just the six sets ever seen. Hope so, that would simplify things.

AND it would simplify when they say that Taizu Chang Quan has 18 roads, it would be just 6 sets, which they must be in the Shaolin Encyclopedia in some form using different names for each road.
The way that I found that Chang Quan Er Lu is the middle set of LZH's Tongbei Quan video that I show on YouTube.

Ren, the ancient Luohan Shiba Shou must be the one in the LZH book, as it and another book I have say that that set is ancient coming to Shaolin through Li Sou (which makes it part of Da Hong Quan!) It sure is different from any Luohan seen today.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And then there is this Luohan 18 Hands set:

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/1022/02/5996_1803741.shtml

There's videos everywhere of Shi Dejian doing it, you know his Xinyi ba style Luohan Shou.

[RenDaHai]

And then there is this Luohan 18 Hands set:

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/1022/02/5996_1803741.shtml

There's videos everywhere of Shi Dejian doing it, you know his Xinyi ba style Luohan Shou.

This one is explained. It is the standard one deyang does, albeit with a bit different Shen fa. It is essentially the same form. Xian Tian Luohan 18 shou, or Xiao Si hui. It makes sense because Dejians WuGuLun Pai is supposedly from the nanyuan.

[LFJ]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

I think you nailed it, RDH. That's the 18 road series in the Xiyuan and the older precursor. That's the history in the Encyclopedia applied to the Nanyuan version, which is clearly different.

I suppose the reason the Nanyuan 8 road series is called Luohan Shiba Shou is because the Nanyuan wanted a version. By the way, the word Xiantian (先天) is the opposite of Houtian (后天). I think in this case it doesn't quite mean 'innate' and 'acquired', 'priori' and 'posteriori', or something like that, but simply 'former days' and 'latter days'. This means the road 1 must come from Ji Jike's early Xinyi rooster material when he was at the monastery, and the other roads are more based on Dong Cheng's Xiaotongbi monkey. Then the Datongbiquan sets were created later based on this 'prior day' Tongbi.

So it would put this 8 road series in between Xiao and Da, and dated around the 1630's or so when Ji Jike was there, before the massacre.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That makes sense LFJ about the 18 Hands set and that would explain some things to me why Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan have a lot of overlap.

Another topic:

In Dr. Yan’s article, “Creator of Shaolin Five Fists, Bai Yufeng, was from the Ming”, he states that Bai was a person from Ye in the Ming era, and later was mistakenly said to be from the Jin or Yuan periods. He says that it is easy to date when Bai was really from since all the various old Tongbei Quan manuals note that founder Dong Cheng learned from Bai’s two direct in line students, Guo Wanqin and Zhang Wenkui. Also, various written records on Shaolin Quan that have been preserved show that equally famous Shaolin Monk Jue Yuan, the contemporary training partner of Bai Yufeng, had a student named Yi Guan, he had a historically proven student named (蔡) Cai Jiuyi, who was later the founder in Canton of the Choi / Choy family boxing style, and who lived in the late Ming into the early Qing eras. Thus, these facts place Bai Yufeng in the mid to late 1400s of the Ming Dynasty at the earliest, otherwise he would have been teaching when way over a hundred years old.



Okay, speaking of Luohan Quan and Shiba Shou, I am going to post here from my book a section that has never before been shown to anyone in English about what the forms were that were developed by Jue Yuan and Baiyu Feng, it is very interesting.
In return for sharing it, I ask just one thing, can you please review my english translation and let me know if there is better ways to say things AND help me with the pinyin translation of the english and the Chinese characters, thanks!

here goes:


According to the Shaolin Wu Quanpu manual (少林五拳譜), the art passed on through the generations from (Ming dynasty Hong Wu era) Monk Jue Yuan to Monk Yi Guan to secular Cao Wangting (曹王廷) of Shaanxi, who passed it on to a layman named Teng Heizi. Then during the Qing dynasty it passed to a lay person by the name of Liu Qingchao of Shandong Shou County, next it was passed on to a Zhang Junwe, a layman in Raoyang County in Shandong, then to Feng Yan, and finally to a layman named Niu Hanzhang (1898- 1975).

Bai Yufeng’s Wu Xing Ditang Quan consisted of such sets as:
龍地躺拳三十五手 – Long Ditang Quan 35 hands (Dragon lies down boxing 35 hands);
黑虎地趟拳三十五手 – Hei Hu Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Black tiger lies down boxing 35 hands);
金豹地躺拳三十五手 – Jin Bao Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Golden Leopard lies down boxing 35 hands);
蛇形地躺拳三十五手 – Shi Xing Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Snake-shape lies down boxing 35 hands);
鶴形地躺拳三十五手 – He Xing Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Crane shape lies down boxing 35 Hands).
The five fists altogether total 175 hands.

In addition there were 60 Postures of Lying Down Seizing Positions, Ditang Zhuan Qinna Liushi Shi 地躺專操姿六十勢.

Monk Jue Yuan developed a series of Luohan Quan sets as well (more on this later in this book).

This 少林五拳譜 book passed on to Niu Hangzhang shows a complete system of Shaolin martial arts taught in this ancient lineage, including:

Standing Gong (Exercises or Skills) - 樁功 (八字, 一字, 川字, 子午樁);
Slipping Legs Frame (methods) - 溜腿架 (十字, 四正, 四隅三套);
18 Section Child Gong - 十八段童子功;
18 Section Luohan Gong - 十八段羅漢功;
Luohan Shiba Shou - 18 Hands - 羅漢十八手;
Changed Transforming 15 hands (Bian Hua 15 Shou) - 變化十五手;
Shaolin 5 Fist - 少林五拳,
Drunken 8 Immortals - 醉八仙;
Orthodox Shaolin Boxing 10 Times - 正宗少林拳十趟 :
1 四旬開進式 – 40 Open Entrance Methods,
2 六旬四方式 – 64 Direction Methods ,
3 八旬盤身式 – 80 Coiling Body Methods,
4 八方變通式 – 8 Direction Changing Through Methods,
5 化頤六合式 – Transforming Nourishing Six Harmony Methods,
6 陰陽中合式 – Yin Yang Center Harmony Methods,
7 鴛鴦進步連環腿 – Mandarin Duck Advancing Step Linked Kicks,
8 盤膝陰手式 – Coiled Knees Yin Hands Methods,
9 震伏順意式 – Shaking Submit to Obey Thoughts Methods, and
10 震靜机動式 – Shaking Still Secret Methods;
18 Times Luohan Boxing – 十八趟羅漢拳;
Shaolin Hard Soft 24 Postures – 少林刚柔二十四势;
Shaolin 36 Hands Walking / Traveling School Cross Steps – 少林三十六手行门过步;
Shaolin Cutting Hands Way of 16 Hands – 少林裁手法十六手;
360 Scattered Hands (San Shou) – 三百六十散手;
Neigong (internal exercises) Qi/Air Techniques - 內功气術;
Intersecting Hands Method Secrets Class – 交手法訣等;
many weapons sets (such as: 八仙剑, 八仙醉剑, 穿云双剑, 六路进化戟, 开山大斧, 朝天大钺, 连环钩, 檀香双拐, 流行锤, 鞭, 锏, 锤, 抓, 镗, 狼牙棒, 搠镢, 棒, 花枪, 单刀, 七节钉, 三节棍, 匕手, 钩镰枪, 梢子棍, 铁尺, 连子锤, 板斧, 子午鸳鸯钺, 判官双笔, 手拯子, 鹅眉刺, 双蓝, 少林缩身摆莲地躺剑, 少林地躺双刀, 少林地躺七节鞭 );
Li Sou’s Shaolin Staff methods – 李叟所传少林棍法;
8 Coiling Linking Staff - 八盘连环棍;
Division into 7 methods and 8 points - 分七法八点,
Stick secret song – 棍诀歌, and also
66 Posture Stick Chart 66 - 六十六势棍谱.

Bai Yufeng also taught the “18 Luohan Hands qigong exercises”, which had first started being practiced at Shaolin in the Song dynasty and by the Jin Dynasty became known as the “Eight Section Brocade”, which later changed into the “Yi Jinjing” 12 Postures. Niu’s Shaolin quan pu book passes on Bai Yufeng’s record of the 18 Luohan Hands method:
1. 朝天直举 (一手) – Face Upwards Vertical Rise;
2. 排山运掌 (共四手) – Row of Mountains Moving Palms;
3. 黑虎伸腰（四手) – Black Tiger Stretches Waist;
4. 鹰翼舒展 (一手) – Eagle Wings stretch spread;
5. 辑肘钩胸 (一手) – Gather elbows hook chest;
6. 挽弓开膈 (一手) – Pull Bow Open Diaphragm;
7. 金豹露爪 (一手) – Golden Leopard Presents Claws;
8. 腿力跌荡 (三手) – Legs Forcibly Drop Move;
9. 钩腿盘旋 (三手) – Hook Legs Coil Revolve.

As it can be seen, Bai Yufeng actually created these 18 Luohan exercises, and not Damo (Bodhidharma), as legends later began to say. Note: General Qi Jiguang in his Ming era (1500s) military book names many styles that he had heard of in his time, but did not name Shaolin Quan nor the Wu Quan, which means that Jue Yuan’s Luohan Quan and Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan had not reached outside their own inner circle and had not spread into the populace yet. But, by the Qing dynasty it became well known; with Shaolin then developing many more styles and routines.

[RenDaHai]

6 full length sets, that's great logic. cool. Such good detectives here, ha.
Then those Shaolin sets fall into place of LZH.

AND, taking that concept of 324 postures = 6 full sets, then that's why we have only seen 6 sets from Shi Degen style Luohan Quan that Zhu Tianxi does. Its just the six sets ever seen. Hope so, that would simplify things.

AND it would simplify when they say that Taizu Chang Quan has 18 roads, it would be just 6 sets, which they must be in the Shaolin Encyclopedia in some form using different names for each road.
The way that I found that Chang Quan Er Lu is the middle set of LZH's Tongbei Quan video that I show on YouTube.

Ren, the ancient Luohan Shiba Shou must be the one in the LZH book, as it and another book I have say that that set is ancient coming to Shaolin through Li Sou (which makes it part of Da Hong Quan!) It sure is different from any Luohan seen today.

It would be convenient, but I think the Degen/ZhuTianXI Luohans may be a bit different. I think I have seen 5 of them though which may well be most, they are all very long.

My Xiao+Da Hong is also 6 roads. I know Da HOng is from a different time, but I think it has been reformed in some era since the later sets all go together so well.

By my estimation the Xiyuan HanTOng Tong bei is 6 roads. LZH 1+2 then Meihua ditang, then Da tong bei then 2 unknowns, supposed datongbei 2 +3. I don't know if the standard taizu chang quan would fit into this, it doesn't look so similar.

WOuld be interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu quan are supposed to be. Is it to do with Qi Ji Guangs 32 postures?

The ancient 18 shou form is certainly the most different of all my forms. Unmistakably Shaolin, but very unusual. I'll send the names of the postures of ti to you. The ones in my version are a little different to the book.

[RenDaHai]

Great info Sal!

Is this book still extant?? [wu quan pu]

[Sal Canzonieri]

Great info Sal!

Is this book still extant?? [wu quan pu]

Yep, it is in the hands of that Niu guy I mentioned.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It would be convenient, but I think the Degen/ZhuTianXI Luohans may be a bit different. I think I have seen 5 of them though which may well be most, they are all very long.

My Xiao+Da Hong is also 6 roads. I know Da HOng is from a different time, but I think it has been reformed in some era since the later sets all go together so well.

By my estimation the Xiyuan HanTOng Tong bei is 6 roads. LZH 1+2 then Meihua ditang, then Da tong bei then 2 unknowns, supposed datongbei 2 +3. I don't know if the standard taizu chang quan would fit into this, it doesn't look so similar.

WOuld be interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu quan are supposed to be. Is it to do with Qi Ji Guangs 32 postures?

The ancient 18 shou form is certainly the most different of all my forms. Unmistakably Shaolin, but very unusual. I'll send the names of the postures of ti to you. The ones in my version are a little different to the book.

The 32 taizu chang quan is not at all like Qi Jiguangs 32, though a lot of people bull**** and say it is related, they aren't at all. There are videos of the Chang quan everywhere and you can compare it to the Qi Jiguang 32 videos and they are not alike at all. By "Interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu Quan are supposed to be" to you mean you want a listing of the forms in the routine? If so, here they are:

The actual 32 posture names for Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan:

海底捞沙 - Hai di lao yue (or sha) = ocean bottom scoop moon (or sand)
迎面扳手 - Yin-mian ban shou = face to face grab/wrench hand
撩阴截把捶 - Liao yin jie, ba chui = Pull up hidden (or genitals) cut/block and Grasp hammer
撑膀 - Cheng bang = support forearm
合身 - He shen = close body
提地擎天 - Ti di qing tian = lift ground seize sky
撂手撩脚挤手炮 - Lue shou hen jiao, Ji shou pao = (plunder) brush-past hand, step rudely foot (stamp), Squeeze hand cannon
撂手单冲拳 - Lue shou dan dong quan = Plunder/brush past single dashing fist
右二起脚 - (you) Er qi (fei) jiao = (right) two lifting (flying) feet
双括 - Shuang kuo = double embrace/ parenthesis
束身双抱拳 - Su shen shuang bao quan = close body double wrapping fist

左橛楔捶 - Zuo jue-xie chui = left plow (‘post wedge’) hammer
凤凰单展翅 - Feng Hwang dan zhan chi = Phoenix single spread wing
摇山 - Yao shan = Shake mountain
扳手推腰 - Ban shou Tui yao = grab/wrench hand and push waist
虎扑 - Hu pu = Tiger strike
挑打器眼 - Tiao da qi yan = (carry pole on) shoulder striking tool eye
束身双抱拳 - Su shen shuang bao = close body double wrapping

右橛楔捶 - You jue-xie chui = right plow (‘post wedge’) hammer
十字闯步前后冲拳 - Shi-zi kuo bu, qian dong quan = Cross-shape wide step, before and after rushing fists
盘肘 - Pan zhou = coil elbow
虚步亮掌 - Xu bu liang zhang = false/empty (?hill) step show palm
黑虎掏心 - Hei hu tao xin = Black tiger pulls out heart
左二起飞脚 - (Zuo) Er qi (fei) jiao = (left) two lifting (flying) feet
赘地炮 - Zhui di pao = elaborate ground cannon
燕子取水 - Yan-zi qu shui = Swallow takes water
霸王观阵- Ba-Wang guan zhen = Overlord observes battle formation (?bursts)
掏鬓捶 - Tao Bin Chui = Fish out (hair on) Temples hammer
磨腰掏肋捶 - Mo yao tao lei chui = Grind waist pullout rib hammer
虎扑 - Hu pu = tiger strike
双抱膝 - Shuang bao qi = double embrace knees
蹬足双冲拳 - Bing zu shuang dong quan = Gather feet, double rushing fists.

[LFJ]

Note: General Qi Jiguang in his Ming era (1500s) military book names many styles that he had heard of in his time, but did not name Shaolin Quan nor the Wu Quan, which means that Jue Yuan’s Luohan Quan and Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan had not reached outside their own inner circle and had not spread into the populace yet. But, by the Qing dynasty it became well known; with Shaolin then developing many more styles and routines.

Yes. I have by dating the lives of various students seen Bai Yufeng placed at Shaolin in the early 1500's. Which means the arts were new and developing by the time Qi Jiguang was born and old enough to know about it. Hence he hadn't heard of it.

As for your translations, I'd say Tang (趟) means "rows". "10 times" sort of means something else in English, like you do each movement "10 times". So you have "10 Rows of Orthodox Shaolin Boxing" and "18 Row Arhat Boxing".

Also Biantong (变通) is a single word which means like "adaptability", the ability to adapt to the situation. Similarly, Bianhua (变化) means to "change" or "transform". These are two very important skills!

The translation of Ditang 地躺 is a little difficult. I don't really like "lies down", but it is more literally like "ground-lying" or just "groundward" boxing.

[LFJ]

Yep, it is in the hands of that Niu guy I mentioned.

What about now, since he died in 1975?

[LFJ]

wow! so you think those 8 roads are not Luohan ShiBa Shou at all! right?
OK, this is some totally different idea!

the Encyclopedia mentions those 18 roads of 324 postures in total as a later development of Luohan ShiBa Shou in the Ming Dynasty. we've read that in the Ming dynasty a Luohan Quan was created with 18 short roads, each road with 3 sections, so 54 sections in total. with each section having 6 postures, they must have had 324 postures in total. the Encyclopedia is referring to this 18-road Luohan system.

Coming back to this. In the book we've been looking at recently, it shows a Luohanquan set (which if I recall is LZH 1+2) and says this is the first of the 18 road series taught by Shi Degen, which with the number of postures should fit into the 6 roads as shown by Liu Zhenhai. The first part of this series is obviously the same as Chashou Luohanquan (aka. Xiaoluohan/ Laojia Luohan). Other Luohan material, such as the so-called Yilu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mkXKnH9B-E) from Zhu Tianxi, can be found later in these sets, such as in Sanlu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV4r11xzk7U).

This book has Luohan material from Shi Degen and Li Gensheng. This Luohanquan being from Shi Degen (a Xiyuan monk), as it's written, and the Luohan Shiba Shou from Li Gensheng.

I have reason to believe this Luohan Shiba Shou, as well as the Yuanhouquan shown, have come through Bai Yufeng. The Luohan Shiba Shou may be the one he created. Yuanhouquan is said to be related to Zhao Kuangyin's style, which Bai Yufeng also taught and which made its way to Dong Cheng via his students to create the Tongbiquan now in Nanyuan, which shares great similarity with the Yuanhouquan set.

So this Luohan material here is all Xiyuan, going back to the early 1500's with Bai Yufeng.

The main style of Nanyuan is Tongbiquan and Xinyiquan/Xinyiba. So we have the 8 road series named as the Nanyuan version of Luohan Shiba Shou, but it is by name only. Its content is all uniquely Nanyun Tongbiquan.

[SHemmati]

Where can one see some of this set on the web?

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Kung fu, 4 volumes Collection (scribd.com) (http://www.scribd.com/collections/4133108/)

the 8 roads of Luohan ShiBa Shou are at pp. 2-36 of Vol.2.

the Luohan ShiBa Shou at p.36 is the 9th road from Hua Quan we talked about, you can see its 18 techniques at pp. 1038-1061 of Vol.2, and its dui lian (2-person form) at pp. 106-135 of vol.4. that's it all!

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about now, since he died in 1975?

hmm, with his family as far as I know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

If you look at my translation of the Shaolin quanbu, all the Luohan routines we are talking about are actually there.