taijiquan training - state park walking

[Skip J.]

Ever since uki made his famous post on training with swords in his state park; I have been thinking of a taiji version of his post. The part about running thru boulders with swords and only stubbing his toe as an injury was eye-catching to say the least.

There are many references to training on the KF forums, but very few here in ours. I think there is a great unwashed body of folks who think they can get away with only doing the empty taiji forms and still advance on to higher levels. They have no idea their instructor is letting them think they are advancing by learning new movements; but in reality their old body is just not up to advanced movements yet. The problem is, if they don't know they need to train; then they just keep on perpetuating their lack of progress, year after year.

After the 2nd year competing in Dallas; I recognized that I better get after it or I was never gonna improve. KF guys pound the bags and run, as well as all sorts of training programs. Us old folks haven't seen the inside of a gym in decades, and most of us haven't run in a long time either.

My wife and I have always walked off and on for 40 years and needed to start again. About 3 years ago we slowly started walking some occasionally. About 2 years ago we started walking more often and faster. We walk every day 2 miles before sunup, and 6 miles around the local zoo/duckpond park on Saturday. Without saying anything to her or anyone else; I started looking up at eye level just like taiji class, staying on the back leg and sweeping the yin foot along to the front, with my hips tucked under and my chin pushed back.

That means no looking down directly in front of my feet at the ground to be walked on. Kinda scary to say the least. After 2 years I can walk without looking down to see where I'm going all day in my normal life; this takes a lot of development of the peripheral vision below eye level to accomplish. I still have a hard time going down the steps in our 2 story house, but I'm working on that every day.

Last year I did this in our local state park on their wooded trails walking with my wife 3 times. Imagine training taiji while walking with the wife! And she still doesn't know. Because I was able to step over - or on - all the many tree roots crossing the trail without falling. Now that the woods are cooling off - it won't be long until we start back again.

So for the last two years I have been able to work on learning a new movement in class without looking down at my feet; with a great deal more stamina from the constant walking.

I few months ago I found this great semi-new book "Chi Walking" by Danny and Katherine Dreyer. There's nothing in there we don't already do, but it's great to send home with beginners. It shows pics of the tucking the hips under and pushing the chin back, and quite a few other good pics. The goal is to get the beginner to maintain the correct posture at home and work, not just in class for an hour a week. That way when she/he comes back they're ready to move on, and have also developed the strength and balance needed to do the advanced steps.

It may be that us old folks need basic strength and balance training more than you young guys...

[Hebrew Hammer]

Why the hell not? I've heard of Zen walking and that some zen practioners use this as their moving meditations....I suppose if you are using Taiji applications then you'd just have to walk at a very slow pace...it would be interesting to see if you could stay in the moment, be focused and get a chance to use your skills against a Bear.

[Skip J.]

Why the hell not? I've heard of Zen walking and that some zen practioners use this as their moving meditations....I suppose if you are using Taiji applications then you'd just have to walk at a very slow pace...it would be interesting to see if you could stay in the moment, be focused and get a chance to use your skills against a Bear.
Well actually as strength and balance training - we're walking as fast as we can.. all that said, it's hard to walk very fast at all when going up'n down and stepping over-or-on large tree roots. But it's a heckufa workout! It's actually about 150 miles further into deep east Texas to any bears; and the bear hunters keep their pop down where you'll never see any yourself...

Coming full circle, most taiji apps incorporate a very strong twist-step and then turn at the waist. There is a constant turn-turn-turn on these trails; so if my hands were up, they would be taiji apps.

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I had a similar experience with walking helping my TCC training. Only mine is with stair walking.
I don't live anyplace close to enough wilderness to do any real walking. The local parks near me are really too small to even work up a sweat. Until quite recently I worked in a 26 story tall building, with two sets of stairwells that traversed the entire length of the building.
One day I read an article on stair walking for fitness. Since my job is almost entirely sedentary (I am sitting at my desk with my feet propped up as I type this on my break) I was developing quite a belly despite two hours a day of TCC training. I needed to do something and since all those stairs were literaly just outside my office door....
I started stair walking during my down times.
I started out going up then down only five flights. It didn't feel too strenuous when I did it and was seriously considering upping it to ten flights.
Then I woke up the next morning.
Oh, man.
So I kept my walking at five flights until the morning I finally woke up and wasn't feeling like someone had beaten my legs with a bat.
Then I started adding one flight each time my legs adjusted.
I got up to walking up and down the stairs the entire height of the building (all 26 floors and the basement and sub-basement brought it to 28 flights total) every day. At first it took me nearly half an hour to do it, but after two years I was able to practically run up and down those stairs in just over twenty minutes.
What really got me going was when my TCC teacher noticed the stiffness in my legs and hips, even in my lower back. He asked what I was doing different and I told him about the stair walking. I had lost almost twenty pounds by then and was up to 20 or so flights but I was really tensing up my legs and core.
That was very bad for my TCC, so I thought I would have to give up the stair walking.
But my teacher told me not to give it up, just to incorporate TCC into the exercise.
He worked with me on how to use the principles of TCC to do the walking.
It was easy and should have been self explanatory if I'd have just thought of the Ten Essentials of Yang Cheng Fu.
Once I got the basic lower body movements of stepping incorporated with the principles I found that I was fairly flying up and down the stairs. It became almost absurdly easy to do after being so incredibly difficult before.
Then my teacher threw a wrench into the works when he suggested that I put in upper body movement along with the stepping.
How to do this?
Again, it was absurdly simply.
I started out using Cloud Hands (I practice Traditional Yang Family TCC as taught by GM Yang Zhen Duo and Master Yang Jun, for the visual) upper body patterns. It was quite easy to do. I was able to work that in on the very first try and never looked back.
Later, after that got a bit boring, I started adding in other upper body form movements to the stepping and most of them worked quite well. Some were better than others but all forms were eventually adapted and tried.
I tend to stick with Cloud Hands though. It's easy and it flows. Being balanced to both sides equally really helped with going up and down those stairs.
It is the whole body integration of TCC that allowed me to keep going further and faster as I did this.

Alas, while I have the same job we now have a new location. Unfortunately for me our new location only has two flights of stairs, total.
I would go up and down them 14 times, but it's just not the same as having all those endless flights to traverse.
So now I only do ten flights a day but I have found a new exercise to incorporate TCC principles into.
Bike riding!
Again, it was absurdly simple to incorporate the principles of TCC into this exercise. I ride my bike to and from work every day (weather permitting). It's about a four mile ride each way but since I live in the hills in Kentucky you have to add in the up the hill, down the hill that I do while riding into the intensity.

I am out of time for now, my break is over, but I thought I'd drop this bit of "integrated exercise" on you all and see what you think.

Cheers,
Bob

[Skip J.]

Hello Bob;

Thanks for your detailed reply! I only have one flight of stairs here, so I can only imagine the effort involved. Still, while trying to use only my peripheral vision to look down onto the stairs, walking downstairs is still challenging after two years, but it's easy going up because I can see the stair directly with my eyes. Most of the challenge on going down is the fear of missing the step, rather than inability to actually do it. But the training of my peripheral vision this way helps a lot when walking up'n down in the woods. And the very best part is when walking flat most days is that I don't have to look down at all. This has advanced the speed I can learn new movements at least 100% over the past two years..... I can look at my instructors feet and my feet 1-2-3-4 while learning it, then the intervening 6 days practice putting the steps together into the flow, and learn something new the next week.

Now that I can look ahead at eye level when walking I can align my spine properly "hanging from a hook" without tripping and falling. By walking straight up, I can then put my mind in my feet and kinda-sorta practice rooting while moving. Not the same thing as the form, but head'n shoulders above walking bent over even a little bit.

Walking flat does not increase my strength and balance anywhere near your 26 flights of stairs does. But after 2 years, I would say they are at least twice as much improved as before then.

The best part is it is something I do with the wife anyway, so I don't have to find an extra hour in the day to get it done. She doesn't notice that I'm getting a major heavy-duty taiji workout right there beside her for hours on end. That's a homerun in my book.

Bottom line is, I can actually physically do a new step and concentrate on learning it rather than building up to it over time. Increasing strength and balance as I walk has worked well for me.....

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I had a similar experience with walking helping my TCC training. Only mine is with stair walking.......

......Then my teacher threw a wrench into the works when he suggested that I put in upper body movement along with the stepping.
How to do this?
Again, it was absurdly simply.
I started out using Cloud Hands (I practice Traditional Yang Family TCC as taught by GM Yang Zhen Duo and Master Yang Jun, for the visual) upper body patterns. It was quite easy to do. I was able to work that in on the very first try and never looked back.
Later, after that got a bit boring, I started adding in other upper body form movements to the stepping and most of them worked quite well. Some were better than others but all forms were eventually adapted and tried.
I tend to stick with Cloud Hands though. It's easy and it flows. Being balanced to both sides equally really helped with going up and down those stairs.
It is the whole body integration of TCC that allowed me to keep going further and faster as I did this............................

Cheers,
Bob
Well, I tried Cloud Hands going up'n down stairs... so far I haven't got a clue how to do it. I think you have been practicing TCC a whole lot longer than me...

But I'm going to keep on trying!

I must say well done Bob!

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I don't look at my feet when doing my stair, or any other, walking. I trained myself out of that very quickly for all the reasons you state. It just isn't conducive to the flow to constantly be looking down.
What I had to come to grips with about all of these types of movement in order to keep them "level" enough for me to do without looking down was to realize that there are six joints that are at play in the stepping.
Well, there are more than that but I'm thinking only of the feet and legs so six that matter.
The ankles, the knees and the hips. Two sides, six joints.
You have to use these six joints to maintain your balance and root.
The ankles and the knees most of us understand well enough to not really need mentioning.
But the hips?
I've found that most people just don't understand how their hips work. At all.
Neither did I, until I fortuitously learned to belly dance.
Yes, that's what I said, you don't have to go back and check. Belly dancing.
One of the ladies who attended our Saturday morning classes was also a belly dancing instructor. She loved to dance all over the place while we practiced and she often laughed at me (and others but in a kind way) over how "stiff" our hips are. She would tell us all the time that we don't use our hips at all and wonder how we could stay upright that way.
I, and everyone else there except our teacher, really didn't know what she meant. We saw no problems with how we used our hips and so didn't pay much attention to her.
However one day my teacher grabbed me up and took me over to her. He said to me, "You need to learn what she can teach you."
To her he said, "Here he is, show him what he's doing wrong."
She then spent about a year and a half teaching me basic belly dancing.
She taught me their stretches and warm ups, she then taught me how to move my center using ALL of my joints.
I could not believe how quickly my TCC went from "Eh, he can do the form" to "Wow, he's got the principles".
The difference in how I move, how I stand, how I view things, is simiply astounding.
And...
I can dance.
I never could dance before. At all. Typical male stiffness kept me from relaxing my center, most especially my hips, and moving was stiff and ungraceful.
But my friend and belly dancing teacher got me past all of that and now I move fluidly and much more correctly at all times.
I still have a LONG way to go, but thanks to my belly dancing teacher I am now on the right path.
Alas, she passed away last year. However her legacy lives on in that I teach those same stretches, warm ups and movement patterns to all of my students. I make it a requirement that they learn to move from thier center correctly.
But back to the stair walking, and any other form of walking of riding....

You have to use your hips. It's as simple as that. Hips and waist are seperate, I hope you see that. While they work together they are seperate parts of your body and can and should be used in conjuction but seperately.
Most people I've trained with do not know that to start out. I sure didn't know that and did my TCC accordingly.
Once I began to understand the difference between hips and waist I began to understand how you can use the six joints in your lower body to establish and maintain root no matter what position you happen to be in.
I once read an expression but I don't remember where I read it or who said it.
Chen Man Ching comes to mind but I could be wrong. I know it was he who said that he dreamed he had no arms and that's when he understand TCC.
However while this is similar it's not the same thing.
I once read that the secret to moving from your center was to imagine that your legs were in your body and not seperate from it. To use your core, your center, to move your legs and then use the legs to help that.
I couldn't figure out what that meant until I learned to use my hips.
Once I did I began to notice that I could actually feel the movement of my legs more in my center, in my core, than I could before. But it was the stair walking where that really came into play.
This may sound strange....
Oh heck it IS strange.
But I now move using a circular pattern in my hips. What's more, those circles are always going backwards.
This is a "feeling", something that I feel internally. There is some small amount of actual movement that corresponds but mostly it's a mental, energy movement kind of thing.
I imagine circles in my hips that start at the bottom, where the leg joins the hip bone, and wraps up and over to where the hip sockets poke out at the top of my hips, then back around to the bottom. The circles travel backwards all the time. I've tried to move them forward but that is too uncontrolled. By moving them forward I tend to launch myself with a lot of power, but with no finesse. By going backwards it feels to me more controlled but less overall powerful.
Still, more than powerful enough.
Using this never stopping spinning motion I pull my legs along for the ride rather than using the legs to propel me around.
By going backwards I imagine an energy band in my legs rather like the wheels on a train. The bones in my legs are the being driven by the wheel that is my hip and the joints are the pivot points that allow that backward movement to propel me forward.
Going backwards allows me to "sink" into the forms because the movement goes from top to bottom along the back of my hip, allowing me to sit down quite deeply and with rooting into any stance.

Maybe I've gone on too long about this.
I'll leave it there for now.
This is my own, personal, theory of TCC movement and I haven't described it to too many people. I guess I got to typing and there it is.
I'm probably not being very clear on this as I've never tried to put it down in words before. I know that some people I've worked on this with have not understood while others got it right away and are using it still.
It really does work. My teacher has seen the results and he is pleased with my progress so far.
I do know that since I began to use this method my TCC has gotten much, much better than it was before and I can clearly feel the energy being moved and utilized in my body where before I could not.

Bob

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
If you want to do Cloud Hands Stair Walking you will first need to get the feet moving as described above. Use your hips, knees and ankles to maintain a steady, level progression.
Second you will need to understand that Cloud Hands is typically a side to side movement, but stair walking is a forward movement. You will have to relearn how to integrate upper and lower using the upper body pattern while stepping either up or down moving forwards.
It gets REALLY interesting if you get as bored as I did and start doing the whole thing while going BACKWARDS up or down the stairs, but that is something you will want to wait a REALLY long time to try. ;)
First get the stepping down. You have to be able to do this without thinking about it at all.
Then while still stepping just add Cloud Hands upper body to the stepping.
You have to learn to time the step with the waist turn and the waist turn with the arm extension, but after you get the feel for it it becomes really quite easy.

I've been learning TCC of one style or another for only 22 years. So I'm still just a beginner. If I can do it anyone can.
The only real secret to it is to relax. Just like any other thing you do with TCC as soon as you tense up you lose the feeling. So relax and breath.
Then lift one leg at a time and step, again relax.
After you begin to feel the rythym of the stepping then you will begin to feel where your body is naturally going from side to side. This is natural, you will move your center side to side to sit down onto your weighted leg. For a while just feel that movement, get used to it, enjoy it.
Once it becomes a part of you then you can begin to move in the Cloud Hands pattern. Turn your waist in the direction of the natural movement. This will enhance that movement.
Be careful, this is very powerful and at first it will unbalance you.
Once you have that waist turn integrated with your stepping then you can add in the arm extensions.
After a short time this should be natural for you.
Then you can begin to add in other form movements as you feel comfortable.

The real fun is to get going on your bicycle and do Cloud Hands while still peddling.
THAT is still quite scary for me (look mom, no hands!), but I do it every chance I get.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I don't look at my feet when doing my stair, or any other, walking. I trained myself out of that very quickly for all the reasons you state. It just isn't conducive to the flow to constantly be looking down.........................

Maybe I've gone on too long about this. I'll leave it there for now.
This is my own, personal, theory of TCC movement and I haven't described it to too many people. I guess I got to typing and there it is.
I'm probably not being very clear on this as I've never tried to put it down in words before. I know that some people I've worked on this with have not understood while others got it right away and are using it still.
It really does work. My teacher has seen the results and he is pleased with my progress so far.
I do know that since I began to use this method my TCC has gotten much, much better than it was before and I can clearly feel the energy being moved and utilized in my body where before I could not.

Bob
Oh no, not too long at all Bob; thanks!

There is a lot of material here between the two posts.. I've read them both and it's a lot of detail. I understand what you're saying about the hips, my instructor has 14 years and really stresses turning the center and "elbows are hooked to the hips". I'll apply your instructions to the stairwalking and see where I get, but I only have 5 years, so it won't be pretty. Still chi walking in posture for 2 years has changed my life, and supercharged my learning process.... I try to teach it to beginners with the book "Chi Walking", but most aren't ready for it yet. Still, I wish I had had that book when I was just starting; but I may be kidding myself about that, my 1st year was pretty lame.

[bawang]

becareful of bears when you go in the park!!!!!!!!


remember if you see a bear clench your anus and imagine qi gathering at dantien.
you must be completely calm and not be a fraid. feel yourself melting into the cosmos.
shrink the dantian then shoot it out of your laogong point at the bear and shout "WEI"
it will explode

then do a "five heros sit on mountain" pose to honour the spirit of yang luchan

then do standing post over corpse of bear steal his bear jing
imagine a stream of golden qi floating from his anus to your bai hui point, then yuzhong, then dantian, then to yongquan and back to dantien.

say a silent "hoooooo" to build yang qi. rub dantian clockwise 18 times and relax anus. massage testicles 50 times clock wiese then 50 times counter clockwise. imagine thousands of small bears going into your body.
say "song ding konglin jin, qi ru dantian zhong." 3 times

now you have learned the top elite highest level taijiquan qigong "cai xiong qi" collecting the bear eesence. you will be strong like bears.

you will be like 20 year old but in one week if you do not steal qi of another bear you will go back to old man. you must keep killing bears to steal their bear jing. i do not know if if it works on koala bears, polar bears, or panda bears, only 100% on black and brown bears

[Skip J.]

becareful of bears when you go in the park!!!!!!!!

now you have learned the top elite highest level taijiquan qigong "cai xiong qi" collecting the bear eesence. you will be strong like bears.

you will be like 20 year old but in one week if you do not steal qi of another bear you will go back to old man. you must keep killing bears to steal their bear jing. i do not know if if it works on koala bears, polar bears, or panda bears, only 100% on black and brown bears
Hello bawang;

Thanks for the info...... still it's a long way to any bears outside of a zoo from here, all the east Texans shot'em out and they're starting to be reintroduced a long way out from the big cities.. still, it's your thought that counts, thanks again!!!!!

[GLW]

In the parks around Houston, you don't worry about bears.

Alligators - YES...but not about bears. And Alligators CAN outrun a man...who would a guessed it.

[Skip J.]

In the parks around Houston, you don't worry about bears.

Alligators - YES...but not about bears. And Alligators CAN outrun a man...who would a guessed it.
Oh my lord yes... the closest to us is Brazos Bend, and when we do walk it, we give those suckers a respect they have truly earned the hard way.... the bigger and fatter they look, the more likely they can run you down...

A few years back I was walking thru some cattails on an old jobsite that I had been wading thru for years. The thing about cattails is you can't see more'n 10' if that much. All of a sudden that "hey buddy I've got a nest here and you're too close" mama gator bellow came out right in front of me. I cleared those reeds and up the bankside as fast as a 20 year younger guy...

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I don't look at my feet when doing my stair, or any other, walking. I trained myself out of that very quickly for all the reasons you state. It just isn't conducive to the flow to constantly be looking down.
What I had to come to grips with about all of these types of movement in order to keep them "level" enough for me to do without looking down was to realize that there are six joints that are at play in the stepping.
Well, there are more than that but I'm thinking only of the feet and legs so six that matter.
The ankles, the knees and the hips. Two sides, six joints.
You have to use these six joints to maintain your balance and root.
The ankles and the knees most of us understand well enough to not really need mentioning.
But the hips?
I've found that most people just don't understand how their hips work. At all.
Neither did I, until I fortuitously learned to belly dance.
Yes, that's what I said, you don't have to go back and check. Belly dancing.
One of the ladies who attended our Saturday morning classes was also a belly dancing instructor. She loved to dance all over the place while we practiced and she often laughed at me (and others but in a kind way) over how "stiff" our hips are. She would tell us all the time that we don't use our hips at all and wonder how we could stay upright that way.
I, and everyone else there except our teacher, really didn't know what she meant. We saw no problems with how we used our hips and so didn't pay much attention to her.
However one day my teacher grabbed me up and took me over to her. He said to me, "You need to learn what she can teach you."
To her he said, "Here he is, show him what he's doing wrong."
She then spent about a year and a half teaching me basic belly dancing........

You have to use your hips. It's as simple as that. Hips and waist are seperate, I hope you see that. While they work together they are seperate parts of your body and can and should be used in conjuction but seperately.
.....Once I began to understand the difference between hips and waist I began to understand how you can use the six joints in your lower body to establish and maintain root no matter what position you happen to be in.
.....By going backwards I imagine an energy band in my legs rather like the wheels on a train. The bones in my legs are the being driven by the wheel that is my hip and the joints are the pivot points that allow that backward movement to propel me forward.
Going backwards allows me to "sink" into the forms because the movement goes from top to bottom along the back of my hip, allowing me to sit down quite deeply and with rooting into any stance.....

Bob
Ok, well I read both of them again after sleeping on it... twice!

Practicing sinking, rooting and walking up'n down stairs while doing cloud hands.... I guess I have some more things to look forward to while working up to 22 years. My Dad lived to be 78, so I can make it if I last as long as him.

So today, I walked in posture up'n down my one flight of stairs, letting my hip movement exaggerate to the fullest extent it would turning at the waist. I can do that both on the up trip and the down trip....

Then I held the hands out in stance posture while turning at the waist and I can do that, but going down is scary big time. I cannot do anything else with the hands and/or arms while stairwalking tho. I'm gonna follow your lead and see where I can improve on my starting point. Maybe next year I can do cloud hands.

Maybe in a long.long time I can do it backwards... no belly dancing in my plans at the moment... but the hips will get a whole lot more stretching and workout in the regular fashion from now on.

Thanks for the info!

[uki]

i am glad my post was able to give the grey matter a good swirl... if i may make a suggestion to improve your overall peripheral vision... juggle daily, of course they do not have to be 9lb iron balls, but juggling in general... start with something mid weight, as heavier objects tend to be easier to control... LOL... now you have stirred my memories... i also juggle while briskly walking on that boulder field - i use three of the rocks in order to preserve the essence of the place. :)

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
While I don't know a blasted thing about stealing bear chi, I could tell you a few things about chi while bare...
But that's a WHOLE 'nother thread!!!!
And not relevant to this dicussion.
And NO ONE wants to see that anyway. :eek:

As for stepping up and down stairs, which I do know a little about...
My training partner has read through my post and he said I didn't go half far enough with details.
I'll try to pass along some points that are important, but it would take a novel to pass it all along so I'll just hit the high points.

To do what I am describing properly requires loose hips. Any kind of stretching and warm up that loosens hips will do. Some will be better than others but I don't know that you need to be able to spin them 360 degrees or anything.
Now, the actual physical method...
Stand at the bottom of a flight of steps in Wuji posture (preperatory posture).
Now, sit your weight fully onto one of your legs by sinking your hip to the bottom along the back while shifting your center to that side.
When your weight gets to the bottom of the hip you should feel it start to slide foreward. I have heard this feeling being described as "like the traversing the bottom of a shallow wok". You should feel your hip sliding slightly down and forward at the same time, when it begins to level out and is moving more forward than down you are ready to start stepping.
At the same time, raise the feeling of spinning in your other hip up the front to the top of the hip. Again, shallow wok but with a lid on it that exactly resembles the bottom, slightly rounded with a nearly flat top. (I guess it's sort of egg shaped, but both sides are the same size).
As your raising hip reaches the top and your sinking hip reaches the bottom of this rotation (remember to shift your center over the lowering hip) your raising leg should feel very light. That's good, because you are going to raise it up and step up with it to the next step.
When your front foot lands on the step it should be just like Tai Chi walking pattern, you should land on your heel, then bend your knee slightly as the foot begins to drop down to the ball, then as you root the bubbling well your knee should bend more, then as your toes grip the ground lightly you bend the knee the rest of the way.
This is the progression: heel lands, knee bends a little, bubbling well lands, knee bends a little more, toes grip, knee bends and continues to as far as it goes (not past the toes).
Now, on top of all that, you will also be lowering your hip down along with the knee and ankle (foot flattens, but it's the ankle joint that does it) as your other hip rises up the front, pulling your back foot up off of it's heel, then to the ball, then finally lift the toes off the ground.
Step up with the other foot. Repeat on that side.

After you have mastered going up, then you have to go down.
This is a LOT harder to do and takes more stretching of the ankle than most are used to.
Stand at the top of the flight of stairs. Sink your weight to one hip, raise the other and step the raised side out over the stair.
Now RAISE the hip that your weight is on while lowering the other, step down with it.
How do you do that?
By following the same motion as before except you bend the knee and ankle on the hip that is "raising" and nearly straighten them on the hip that is lowering, extending the ankle so that it lands first.
The motion in your hip socket of "raising" will actually lower your body down.
It's counter intuitive, at best, and I'm probably not describing it very well but I lack a degree in anatomy so I can only go with what I "feel" when I do this.
As the hip "raises" your body should lower down on it. Think about it, you raise the leg this way while stepping up. The same motion will actually also step you down.
Once the heel lands on the step below you follow the same pattern of "lowering" and using ankle, knee and hip to complete the step.

If you practice on level ground but imagine that you are stair stepping this should become more understandable.

I would recommend that you start out going up, as walking down in this fashion takes a lot of faith in the method, and a LOT of practice.
No one I have shown this to can do it right away. Which should not surprise me at all because it took me a good year to figure it out myself.

Now, I want to make it clear that this is strictly MY method of stair walking using TCC principles.
I have gone over this with my teacher and even a couple of Masters, no one has found a flaw with it yet. However, it is not "traditional" training at all and should only be done if you are comfortable with it.

Despite the bawang's sarcasm, I am not trying to sell you, or anyone else, any snake oil.
I want to make clear that I not a Master or even a Disciple. I'm just a guy who is trying to make sense of it all myself.
Take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt, at least. Try it, run it by your teacher to get his or her or thier opinion.
Then if you like it, keep doing it.
If not, don't.

I hope you enjoy and get some benefit from it, but it's certainly not required in any way, shape or form to improve TCC training.

Let me know if any of this helps.

[Skip J.]

i am glad my post was able to give the grey matter a good swirl... if i may make a suggestion to improve your overall peripheral vision... juggle daily, of course they do not have to be 9lb iron balls, but juggling in general... start with something mid weight, as heavier objects tend to be easier to control... LOL... now you have stirred my memories... i also juggle while briskly walking on that boulder field - i use three of the rocks in order to preserve the essence of the place. :)
Ah yes, I remember the juggling.....

My list does runneth over, still I bet I can find three of something... but not gonna do it on stairs tho, I can barely make it up'n down without looking down at my feet.

Walking on the flat, maybe so... there's the minor matter of learning how to juggle first tho, I read your website back then and it's a pretty intimidating skillset..

Good to see you in here uki.... nice place with nice folks, etc.....

Back to OT, as soon as it dries up a bit we will be state park walking about once a month til next spring... once it hits 90 in the woods with no breeze there's no more workouts til it cools off again this time of year...

[Bob Ashmore]

Hmmmmm...............
Juggling and Cloud Hands.
It might just work! :D

[Skip J.]

Skip,
If you practice on level ground but imagine that you are stair stepping this should become more understandable.

I would recommend that you start out going up, as walking down in this fashion takes a lot of faith in the method, and a LOT of practice.
No one I have shown this to can do it right away. Which should not surprise me at all because it took me a good year to figure it out myself.

Now, I want to make it clear that this is strictly MY method of stair walking using TCC principles.
I have gone over this with my teacher and even a couple of Masters, no one has found a flaw with it yet. However, it is not "traditional" training at all and should only be done if you are comfortable with it.

Despite the bawang's sarcasm, I am not trying to sell you, or anyone else, any snake oil.
I want to make clear that I not a Master or even a Disciple. I'm just a guy who is trying to make sense of it all myself.
Take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt, at least. Try it, run it by your teacher to get his or her or thier opinion.
Then if you like it, keep doing it.
If not, don't.

I hope you enjoy and get some benefit from it, but it's certainly not required in any way, shape or form to improve TCC training.

Let me know if any of this helps.
Ok Bob; first I'll try it flat walking.... when I'm confident I can do it at all, then I'll try it going up. As you say, it'll be awhile before down becomes an option.

Ah no, I think we all have to find a way to train ourselves to do all the instructor wants to teach us. We get warmups and forms in class, but that goes much better with training for strength and balance between classes. It took me 3 years to decide on my own to chi walk, and then 2 years of it in order to reap the benefits I am now... anybody not willing to consistently work on something 2 or 3 years to benefit has no business in taiji anyway, that's an oxymoron if I ever heard it.

I wish I had the book Chi Walking in my first year, I would not have been figuring it out in my 3rd year. On the other hand, I was so laid back the first year I didn't really accomplish anything at all, except to survive... Once I started training to compete in Dallas each year tho, I've trained at something ever since.

Actually, can that thought... what I really wish is that I was on here in my first year, but ready to listen and work as I am now...

Anyway, thanks for the details.. I understand how "sink" works the hips, so I should be able to take your words and figure it out with one hip at a time.

I will say how I do... good, bad or indifferent. Between you and uki, I'm gonna be stubbing my toe, I'm sure of it..... the taiji version of no pain, no gain!

To sum up: it's impossible to advance much past beginner without outside training to improve strength and balance....

[uki]

Hmmmmm...............
Juggling and Cloud Hands.
It might just work! juggle some floating scarves.

and it's nice to be here skip!

[Scott R. Brown]

And when you get really good...try juggling with your eyes closed. I also recommend practicing forms and other types of training with your eyes closed.

[Skip J.]

juggle some floating scarves.

and it's nice to be here skip!
ummmm, I think my to do list is already full.... maybe Santa can bequeath me some extra skillsets ..

And you're welcome uki! I'm glad to see that at least one of you young'uns will speak to us old guys...

[Skip J.]

And when you get really good...try juggling with your eyes closed. I also recommend practicing forms and other types of training with your eyes closed.
Hello Scott;

It's good to hear from some little bit younger guys too...

I can walk beside my wife with my eyes closed about 100' on level ground, but not out in the woods. Listening to her keeps me from wandering off the line for awhile, but eventually I do go left or right. I can do the basic form with my eyes closed, but not the more difficult moves - but I will wander from the direction long before the end.

Here's the deal... doing anything difficult blind greatly increases attention to balance! And it trains hearing like you would not believe.

And, I don't go up'n down stairs with my eyes closed!

The juggling is just gonna have to wait until everything else is squared away... That uki is one talented individual....

[Scott R. Brown]

Hello Scott;

It's good to hear from some little bit younger guys too...

I can walk beside my wife with my eyes closed about 100' on level ground, but not out in the woods. Listening to her keeps me from wandering off the line for awhile, but eventually I do go left or right. I can do the basic form with my eyes closed, but not the more difficult moves - but I will wander from the direction long before the end.

Here's the deal... doing anything difficult blind greatly increases attention to balance! And it trains hearing like you would not believe.

And, I don't go up'n down stairs with my eyes closed!

The juggling is just gonna have to wait until everything else is squared away... That uki is one talented individual....

Hi skip,

Well I mean performing your forms with your eyes closed. you may need someone to watch you for safety purposes until you develop some skill. Your balance will improve and your proprioceptive sense will as well. Although walking around your house with your eyes closed would also help develop some skills as well.

[Skip J.]

Hi skip,

Well I mean performing your forms with your eyes closed. you may need someone to watch you for safety purposes until you develop some skill. Your balance will improve and your proprioceptive sense will as well. Although walking around your house with your eyes closed would also help develop some skills as well.

Thanks Scott;

I thought that would be the case.... walking around furniture, particularly furniture I know - mite be in my future. Right now, walking straight for a short distance with my eyes closed is still an exciting adventure. I have done the very basic core of the form we teach beginners with my eyes closed (occasionally, not training regularly) for several years now, but get off-direction before the end. I can't do it in class tho because the beginners will see me and hurt themselves.

Complex hand movements while blind are beyond me at the moment. I suspect - like anything else difficult - that constant training that aspect would improve it somewhat.

Stairwalking in posture down is a similar thing... not seeing the step at all - much less the ones to follow - causes a cautious lowering of the step-down foot until seated that really encourages mental establishment of the root one foot at a time. This in turn, promotes rooting while walking; it's a very difficult thing to root while moving about, but necessary to progress on. This in turn, leads to incorporating a little bit of wuji beginning each step to get the mental rooting flowing within the flow. So while never really interrupting the flow between steps, rooting is momentarily occurring in the planted foot while on it. I know I need to do this, but I can't - so the stairwalking down is an attempt to get there from here. The trouble with having all of these basic techniques still left to learn is that it seems I will always be a beginner...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Skip,

It has been said, "The wise man always has the mind of a beginner!"

There is no goal per se, because once you reach an "artificial" goal you will find there is more to learn. It is best to just have fun learning and continue to challenge yourself without attachment, overly, to any artificial goal. That is not to say, "Do not create goals for yourself". Just recognize that the goal is an artificial tool you are using for a purpose.

I remember when I got my blackbelt, all I thought was, "This is it?" I didn't feel any different than I did the day before my test. There was still much to learn, as there still is!:)

[Skip J.]

Ah yes, I have heard that.... I had to learn as a self-employed guy that finishing a job meant getting paid, but then I had to look for another job and wasn't going to be paid again for a long while. I finally settled on developing a few good clients with a lot of work and sort of go from job-to-job with the same clients.

This progressing in taiji is very similar - being a jack-of-all-trades type doesn't lend itself well to progressing on in taiji. First is to develop some skills and then build on those skills a little bit more related movements. After awhile the flow comes along - about when I think it never will - and all of a sudden what I'm trying to do is in a whole new world.

Soooo, now I need to train my body some in order to be physically capable of these complex movements. My instructor will teach it to me faster than I can learn it, so being ready for class is up to me...

This weeks class is tonite and I didn't retain anything from last week, which is rare for me. So tonite I'll have her show me the 1st half only; and try to retain that thru next week. Best part of working out of the house is I can go do 3 to 5 minutes without anybody else here, off and on all day.

[Bob Ashmore]

Uki,
I can barely juggle the three little wooden balls that I have, much less any floating scarves.
I'm just not that talented at juggling.
I did pull those wooden balls out last night and juggle them for a while. It surprised me that I still could do it after several years of not juggling anything.
I dropped them quite a bit at first, but after a few minutes I was able to get them going around again.
I've never done anything fancy with it, I'm just glad when I can keep them going in a circle without dropping them.

Maybe someday I'll move on to scarves, but that would probably require more time and effort, not to mention a skill, than I have at present.

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
Learning TCC is like peeling a very large onion. There is always another layer underneath the one you just peeled back.
I'm not what anyone could call a beginner, but I'm also certainly not a master.
And I probably never will be.
Unless I win that lottery thing I'm not likely to have that kind of free time in my life.
I have to work, take care of my house, my car, my wife, my kids...
And still try to find the time to do the long form every once in a while.
That is why I have worked TCC principles into my everyday movements. I figured out that it's not something that I have to "practice", per se, if I integrate it into every part of my daily routine.
I don't stand up unless I do it using the principles.
I don't sit down unless I do it using the principles.
Every thing I do I consciously and willfully do using the principles of TCC.
That way, I never have to worry about "practice". I'm simply doing it all the time.
I do "practice" my form movements. I try to do the long form three times a day, at least, the short form at least once and saber and sword at least once every other day. I am succesfull more often then not but sometimes it's just not possible. I always get the long form in once a day but if I can't do the rest...
Oh, well.
But that's "form practice". I am working on maintaining and increasing my knowledge of the movements inherint in the form when I do that.
And that's good, but pulling those principles out and applying them during every day movements is the REAL secret to doing TCC well, in my PHO.
My wife tells me all the time that I move more flowingly, more accurately and that I look much more graceful since I have begun to do this.
My co-workers all remark on how sure of my footing and movements I always am.
It really does give you an air of confidence when you KNOW that you are moving correctly.
It was about seven years ago that I told my teacher, "I can't find the time to practice every day". He laughed at me and said, "Then instead of practicing TCC, why don't you do TCC?"
That was a HUGE eye opener for me.
Since then I've worked on putting TCC principles into everything I do. Now I don't have to worry so much about "practice", I just do it all the time.
Sure, it takes time. It's not easy, at all.
But once you have worked it through it becomes second nature.

First rule:
RELAX.
And second rule:
ENJOY.

It really will become a part of your normal routine if you just make it so.

Bob

[bawang]

Uki,
I can barely juggle the three little wooden balls that I have, much less any floating scarves.
I'm just not that talented at juggling.
I did pull those wooden balls out last night and juggle them for a while. It surprised me that I still could do it after several years of not juggling anything.
I dropped them quite a bit at first, but after a few minutes I was able to get them going around again.
I've never done anything fancy with it, I'm just glad when I can keep them going in a circle without dropping them.

Maybe someday I'll move on to scarves, but that would probably require more time and effort, not to mention a skill, than I have at present.

have you tried juggling qi balls
imgaine ball of qi going out from dantian. clench the anus and rub area around scrotum 36 times clockwise then 36 counterwise. begin juggling. as time go on u can juggle as much as 400 qi balls!

if you run out of qi then repeat bear jing stealing qigong to refill qi

[uki]

have you tried juggling qi balls
imgaine ball of qi going out from dantian. clench the anus and rub area around scrotum 36 times clockwise then 36 counterwise. begin juggling. as time go on u can juggle as much as 400 qi balls!

if you run out of qi then repeat bear jing stealing qigong to refill qiare you mantak chia in disguise?? :D

[Scott R. Brown]

Best part of working out of the house is I can go do 3 to 5 minutes without anybody else here, off and on all day.

Hi Skip,

In my experience the best way to learn and retain the movements is in small increments, so I think that is a good idea. Way back when I was a beginner I found I actually learned new movements faster if I did it in small increments frequently!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

That is a very good way to live and train. I wish TaiChiBob was still around, he would probably have a lot to say that would be helpful to you and Skip, imperialtaichi as well!

[Skip J.]

Hi Skip,

In my experience the best way to learn and retain the movements is in small increments, so I think that is a good idea. Way back when I was a beginner I found I actually learned new movements faster if I did it in small increments frequently!
Yes..... when I first started training seriously for the summer Dallas meets I would try to find a day when I could do a full hour or more during the week between classes. That worked ok until In started instructing a couple of classes too and I was taiji'ed out by the time I got to my own class at nite.

I switched to the "work-it-in-whenever-I-can" method several years ago and now it doesn't matter what the rest of my schedule for the week looks like, I still get my training in. So now I'm a lot more serious about my training too...

[Bob Ashmore]

Bawang,
No, I have never juggled a chi ball.
I've never seen a chi ball, either.
And if I run out chi I will have a lot worse problems than trying to steal some from a bear.
When I run out of chi, I will be dead.

[Bob Ashmore]

Scott,
I remember TaichiBob. I used to post here quite a bit a while back but got off on a different tangent for a while. What ever happened to him? If you know.

What's funny to me is...
I am a Tai Chi Bob. :rolleyes:
But my Tai Chi nickname is actually cooler than that.
It's Bob Bu Hao.
If you don't know what that means, I'm sure many people will be happy to translate it for you.
I gave that nickname to myself to poke fun at my messed up form when I changed styles and it's stuck over time.

[uki]

scott,
i remember taichibob. I used to post here quite a bit a while back but got off on a different tangent for a while. What ever happened to him? If you know.

What's funny to me is...
I am a tai chi bob. :rolleyes:
But my tai chi nickname is actually cooler than that.
It's bob bu hao.
If you don't know what that means, i'm sure many people will be happy to translate it for you.
I gave that nickname to myself to poke fun at my messed up form when i changed styles and it's stuck over time.lmao!!!!!!

[Skip J.]

Skip,
Learning TCC is like peeling a very large onion. There is always another layer underneath the one you just peeled back.
I'm not what anyone could call a beginner, but I'm also certainly not a master.
And I probably never will be.
Unless I win that lottery thing I'm not likely to have that kind of free time in my life.
I have to work, take care of my house, my car, my wife, my kids...
And still try to find the time to do the long form every once in a while.
That is why I have worked TCC principles into my everyday movements. I figured out that it's not something that I have to "practice", per se, if I integrate it into every part of my daily routine.
I don't stand up unless I do it using the principles.
I don't sit down unless I do it using the principles.
Every thing I do I consciously and willfully do using the principles of TCC.
That way, I never have to worry about "practice". I'm simply doing it all the time.
..............It was about seven years ago that I told my teacher, "I can't find the time to practice every day". He laughed at me and said, "Then instead of practicing TCC, why don't you do TCC?"
That was a HUGE eye opener for me.
Since then I've worked on putting TCC principles into everything I do. Now I don't have to worry so much about "practice", I just do it all the time.
Sure, it takes time. It's not easy, at all.
But once you have worked it through it becomes second nature.

First rule:
RELAX.
And second rule:
ENJOY.

It really will become a part of your normal routine if you just make it so.

Bob

Exactly!!!!!!! I do have to spend most of my day making a living, and then keeping this house up in my spare time is time consuming.... My Instructor takes classes several days a week from her Sifu, and then teaches us one day. I bet she does at least an hour or more of taiji on the days she's not in a class. Still, she started when she was 63 and I started at 56... so I have time left...

While not at your level, I do stay in posture all day. If I'm working on dishes in the sink, instead of bending over, I sink down til I can reach'em and then when done, use one leg to stand back up. All day, every day... This has made a tremendous difference in my ability to stay in posture in class; both in strength and in balance.

I'm a long way from learning the 108 and weapons tho, a very long way indeed. More the reason to advance from here...

But I finally can RELAX.... and also I do ENJOY.....

Take care...

[Scott R. Brown]

TaiChiBob shows up from time to time and who knows if he lurks. One time I mentioned him for some reason to someone and he showed up, so maybe he will show up temporarily again.

We will have to wait for him to show up some time I guess.:)

[taai gihk yahn]

as far as Cloud Hands: first off, it's cool, because it is the one movement in the form that contains all 8 taiji energies in equal amount (meaning that all moves have all 8, but emphasize different aspects to different extents); second, speaking of bears, in our version of the Yang form, because it is a very early version of the form he taught (e.g. - we still have the jump kicks, low spinning sweeps and a few other things you don't see in the typical Yang), some of the names are different - so instead of Cloud Hands, it is called Bear Walk (my teacher's perspective is that Cloud Hands is the result of "linguistic drift"), and there is a very good reason for this, if one knows which Bear specifically that one is walking...and then the whole entirety of taiji as a universal practice, the Primal Polarity, the Great Axis, really makes sense, and it's relationship to Daoist cosmology becomes manifest ;) ; as far as it being "rehabilitative", supposedly my sigung, when he first started studying with his teacher (who had in turn studied directly w/YLC when he first came to Beijing), practiced only this movement for some ungodly period of time, and it cured whatever had ailed him (a hearsay, but thus have I heard say: you can read about it here (http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html));
BTW, I am not Tai Chi Bob (in fact, the only nickname I have ever had was given to me by my art teacher in high school, who, while I was in the midst of extemporaneously "contributing" my own commentary to his lecture, yelled out, "Christian F***ING Jurak!!!" - which definitely got my attention - and from then on he would refer to me as "CFJ")

[uki]

if one knows which Bear specifically that one is walking...and then the whole entirety of taiji as a universal practice, the Primal Polarity, the Great Axis, really makes sense, and it's relationship to Daoist cosmology becomes manifest...8 compass directions - applied to to striking and relative position, 8 orbital directions - 64 striking
/directional combinations... 8 primary fist shapes - 512 fist/striking/directions... *multi-dimensional brain***** i could go on into numerology now tickling the concepts of the binary language of the universe... which leads us into the realms of positive and negative, dualities and oppositions... i better stop before i really get entwined in my mind. :o

[Skip J.]

as far as Cloud Hands: first off, it's cool, because it is the one movement in the form that contains all 8 taiji energies in equal amount (meaning that all moves have all 8, but emphasize different aspects to different extents); second, speaking of bears, in our version of the Yang form, because it is a very early version of the form he taught (e.g. - we still have the jump kicks, low spinning sweeps and a few other things you don't see in the typical Yang), some of the names are different - so instead of Cloud Hands, it is called Bear Walk (my teacher's perspective is that Cloud Hands is the result of "linguistic drift"), and there is a very good reason for this, if one knows which Bear specifically that one is walking...)
Hey taai;

Thanks for stopping by!

I can just barely do wave hands like clouds in the form... I cannot do it walking forwards, and I'm not even gonna try up'n down stairs.. I can certainly see where it would resemble bear walking because the bears hold their hands up then and wave them like cloud hands.


Hey uki:

I think you're gettin' way ahead of me here.... still, I know it's the thought that counts...

[uki]

I think you're gettin' way ahead of me here.... still, I know it's the thought that counts...thats okay... just don't ask taai about the foundational aspects of the bear walk and star constellation stepping patterns. :p

[Skip J.]

Mercy Bob!

Well, hmmmm.... all day before class I practiced sink'n float walking across the floor by rotating each hip individually as you described. I can just barely make it across the room and it's a heckuva workout in the process.

Then I went a bridge too far... and went up'n down one flight of stairs.. my hips are killin' me! and I didn't even know they would achieve a pain burn... It's been 2 days now and I know I'm gonna survive.. but I'm not gonna do stairs again until I have done it flat for a long time. I can kinda-sorta step up that way similar to walking flat; but going down was a real adventure. So I'll start with just the going up part first when that time comes, and leave the going down til later, much later....

All that said, I can see right now where it'll improve hip movement in the form greatly!

[Skip J.]

thats okay... just don't ask taai about the foundational aspects of the bear walk and star constellation stepping patterns. :p
Ah yes uki.... I gather from most of taai's posts that he can be quite detailed when called on..... that's usually a good thing....

[uki]

another good hip and leg strengthening walk is to do the pad step(chicken stepping) while walking in circles, with the body twisting into the center of itself...

[Skip J.]

another good hip and leg strengthening walk is to do the pad step(chicken stepping) while walking in circles, with the body twisting into the center of itself...
Thanks uki...

I have not done any circle walking yet... but I have the book Master Lum's Walking Chi Kung, and at the end he does circle walking very similar to what you describe. Most of the walks he describes are with various hand movements very similar to what Bob is saying above. I've never done flat taiji walking with hand movements yet, tho Bob has me on that path for now. I like to use it for instructing beginners because he has very good pictures of wuji - and there really isn't much to photo of wuji....

[taai gihk yahn]

I can certainly see where it would resemble bear walking because the bears hold their hands up then and wave them like cloud hands.
wrong Bear - look up...

[uki]

look up...considering for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction - one has to wonder just what is looking down...

[Scott R. Brown]

wrong Bear - look up...

This is ALL you have to say??:eek:

Are you feeling okay? :confused:

Is everything alright at home? :confused:

Your stomach bothering you? :confused:

Cramps in your hands? :eek:

BTW thanks for the links on the other thread!:)

[KTS]

another good hip and leg strengthening walk is to do the pad step(chicken stepping) while walking in circles, with the body twisting into the center of itself...

seven star stepping of xingyi is one of my faves to show people how to open and "close" the hips/kua individually.

i usually like to really coil out on a step, then really coil inwards upon transferring weight and bring the rear leg up front to the front leg's instep, then repeat for other side.

and with this, you can open up quite a bit if you have decent flexibility. as long as it is remembered that you never "fully" close any side of the kua except in practice perhaps.

[KTS]

Thanks uki...

I have not done any circle walking yet... but I have the book Master Lum's Walking Chi Kung, and at the end he does circle walking very similar to what you describe. Most of the walks he describes are with various hand movements very similar to what Bob is saying above. I've never done flat taiji walking with hand movements yet, tho Bob has me on that path for now. I like to use it for instructing beginners because he has very good pictures of wuji - and there really isn't much to photo of wuji....

i find circle walking simply excellent practice. not just great for providing an extremely mobile base for footwaork, but it is just Great when you isolate the kua and legs and work only on stepping in relation to body movement.

[uki]

i find circle walking simply excellent practice. not just great for providing an extremely mobile base for footwaork, but it is just Great when you isolate the kua and legs and work only on stepping in relation to body movement.i like small two and three step circles where it looks like you are chasing your a$$. :p

[taai gihk yahn]

one has to wonder just what is looking down...
your investment portfolio?



This is ALL you have to say??:eek:
right: growf; growf, I say

[taai gihk yahn]

i like small two and three step circles where it looks like you are chasing your a$$. :p
next time we meet, remind me to show you the bagua "square stepping" I learned; since I never use it, I may as well give it away to someone who will...

[uki]

your investment portfolio?LOL... are you unconsciously emitting personal information here?? to answer your question, NO... i don't gamble.

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL... are you unconsciously emitting personal information here??
no, any personal info that is emitted here (or anywhere) is done so quite consciously! and actually, I was one of the few that made money on my retirement account the last few years...but that's what happens when you have boring tastes in investments...


to answer your question, NO...
and here I had you figured for the diversified stock-option kind of guy - ;) I can just see your broker sweating it out in his office "sh1t, I have to go see that crazy fu(k at his place again - I hope to god he doesn't make me have to walk through that fucing maze of jagged rocks this time..."


i don't gamble.
no, you just gambol...

[uki]

next time we meet, remind me to show you the bagua "square stepping" I learned; since I never use it, I may as well give it away to someone who will...hmmmm... i think i may know what you are talking about, but i'd be more than happy for you to show me - perhaps i will show you something aswell...

[taai gihk yahn]

hmmmm... i think i may know what you are talking about, but i'd be more than happy for you to show me -
you may in fact know it: it's from BP Chan, and he was responsible for most of the East Coast bagua for most of the last 35 years or so; indeed, your little ol' Jewish lady may have gotten it from him, as he was one of those "annoying" sifu who would openly teach anyone who came sincerely, regardless of ethnicity;


perhaps i will show you something aswell...
oh, you have already shown everything...but I accept your generous offer nonetheless...;)

[uki]

oh, you have already shown everything...i have?? interesting... then perhaps i will show you a little of my nothing. :p


but I accept your generous offer nonetheless...well done.

[Scott R. Brown]

Something/Nothing, Circle/Square, Gamble/Gambol........I get it......you guys are playing with words!:eek:

Veeeeeeeery mysticular of you:p.......my head is spinning!

And I almost fell down looking up thank you.......but I did see a lot of clouds......no bear......but a great deal of water got all over my face! Does that mean something mysticular too?:confused:

[uki]

but a great deal of water got all over my face! Does that mean something mysticular too?perhaps the bear was urinating??

[Skip J.]

wrong Bear - look up...
Interesting taai..... and I thought I had it nailed..... makes sense tho......

Does this version of cloud hands have the hands up'n out more than other versions??? I have a hard time imagining any more up'n out than the current version......

[taai gihk yahn]

Interesting taai..... and I thought I had it nailed..... makes sense tho......
why does it make sense?


Does this version of cloud hands have the hands up'n out more than other versions??? I have a hard time imagining any more up'n out than the current version......
it is very different from the standardized Yang I've seen / studied: as you first step out with the left leg, the upper body is turned to the right, as the hands come down at the right side, moving through split, press, push and pluck (weight is mostly on Rt. leg); then as you shift the weight to the left, the left arm moves to the left at face level, rounded, w/palm facing towards you (this contains the ward off, shoulder and elbow aspects) and the right travels across at navel level, rounded, palm facing down / thumb pointing at navel (this part contains roll back); at the completion of the left rotation, the hands come down to the left side repeating the split series, most weight on left leg, and right foot comes in; rotate back to right w/feet close, shift weight to right, hands down to spit at right side, left leg steps out; rinse; repeat;

in the "advanced" version, it's done on a zig-zag pattern, with a series of variably 180˚ to ~270˚ turns for each step

[Skip J.]

why does it make sense?


it is very different from the standardized Yang I've seen / studied: as you first step out with the left leg, the upper body is turned to the right, as the hands come down at the right side, moving through split, press, push and pluck (weight is mostly on Rt. leg); then as you shift the weight to the left, the left arm moves to the left at face level, rounded, w/palm facing towards you (this contains the ward off, shoulder and elbow aspects) and the right travels across at navel level, rounded, palm facing down / thumb pointing at navel (this part contains roll back); at the completion of the left rotation, the hands come down to the left side repeating the split series, most weight on left leg, and right foot comes in; rotate back to right w/feet close, shift weight to right, hands down to spit at right side, left leg steps out; rinse; repeat;

in the "advanced" version, it's done on a zig-zag pattern, with a series of variably 180˚ to ~270˚ turns for each step

Ah well, if the older more traditional form was called bear walking and the bear is up in the sky; then a more modern form with hands up could be called wave hands like clouds because clouds are up in the sky... of course, there is the bear constellation in the night sky....

As you say, that is very different......

Are the two different versions of Yang style taught at the same school??? or different schools????

[taai gihk yahn]

Something/Nothing, Circle/Square, Gamble/Gambol........I get it......you guys are playing with words!:eek:

Veeeeeeeery mysticular of you:p.......my head is spinning!

And I almost fell down looking up thank you.......but I did see a lot of clouds......no bear......but a great deal of water got all over my face! Does that mean something mysticular too?:confused:

or possibly oracular (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsAShdgTy-M)...

[taai gihk yahn]

Ah well, if the older more traditional form was called bear walking and the bear is up in the sky; then a more modern form with hands up could be called wave hands like clouds because clouds are up in the sky...
nice try; nope...


of course, there is the bear constellation in the night sky....
finally! :D
and why would this constellation be relevant to the "tai ji"?


As you say, that is very different......
illiterate teachers + literati students = linguistic drift...


Are the two different versions of Yang style taught at the same school??? or different schools????
I have done the "standard" Yang in the past; my current school (http://www.dantao.com/) teaches the older version

[Scott R. Brown]

...and why would this constellation be relevant to the "tai ji"?

Because it revolves around the pole star!:p

[taai gihk yahn]

Because it revolves around the pole star!:p

that is absolutely correct; although it's surprising that you didn't give Skip the chance to figure that out for himself, seeing as he seemed to be enjoying the process of stretching his brain a bit...

anyway, ok, so if the polar axis is the macro taiji, what's the micro one?

[Skip J.]

that is absolutely correct; although it's surprising that you didn't give Skip the chance to figure that out for himself, seeing as he seemed to be enjoying the process of stretching his brain a bit...

anyway, ok, so if the polar axis is the macro taiji, what's the micro one?
Ah well yes, since uki and I fell off onto a threadjack in my magazine issue thread post about outdoor walking..... I'm enjoying following this wherever it goes... if it's my thread, it can't be a threadjack....

However, there's no way I would have picked up on the revolving part.... but I would have given it a shot for sure. Scott has kinda stepped in and yanked me back from the abyss several times already, so he's part owner of this thread I guess.

The "thing" about this forum is you longterm guys discuss stuff I never hear about in class.... so I wanna throw out an interesting idea from time to time and see what happens.

By the way taai, nice photo in the Festival thread....

[Scott R. Brown]

that is absolutely correct; although it's surprising that you didn't give Skip the chance to figure that out for himself, seeing as he seemed to be enjoying the process of stretching his brain a bit...

anyway, ok, so if the polar axis is the macro taiji, what's the micro one?

Surprising???? Isn't that my middle name?:)

Actually, I didn't know I was raining on someone else's parade or I would have stood by and watched!:)

Sorry Skip!:)

Next time you don't want me to spill your can of beans be sure to include a caveat.......

Scot_......put the can opener DOWN! :D

[Skip J.]

Surprising???? Isn't that my middle name?:)

Actually, I didn't know I was raining on someone else's parade or I would have stood by and watched!:)

Sorry Skip!:)

Next time you don't want me to spill your can of beans be sure to include a caveat.......

Scot_......put the can opener DOWN! :D
No problem Scott... anytime...

[Skip J.]

nice try; nope...


finally! :D
and why would this constellation be relevant to the "tai ji"?


illiterate teachers + literati students = linguistic drift...


I have done the "standard" Yang in the past; my current school (http://www.dantao.com/) teaches the older version
My Bad..... us old folks are allowed to talk like that, right?

I should have followed your links back before..... it seems your study is from a whole different direction. Many things you have said in the past now come into focus, you give hints to the direction you travel, but don't hit us over the head with them. Congrats on finding a Master like Sat Hon to train with.

Personally, I enjoyed the pics of your studio with the indoor penjing. I have raised bonsai about 30 years and am moving into penjing lately myself.

Thanks for the challenge.... it was somewhat deep and mysterious tho......

[Skip J.]

It finally cooled off enough to walk in the woods before Saturday. It's rained off and on for the month of October; we went from a 2 year long drought to caught up on our rainfall total in one month. So we got up early and went walking by Lake Raven in Huntsville State Park for the first time since April. I expected it to be muddy and wore my wet boots. My wife doesn't have wet boots so she wore her off-road walking shoes. Well, it is a sandy well-drained site and my wife's shoes worked fine. I sure wished I had worn mine before we got back to the trailhead.

We left early and got there a little after sun-up. She carried some water bottles in her backpack, so all I had to do was carry myself down the trail. We walked about 8 miles up'n down thru the woods on different 1 to 2 mile trails; so we were always coming back by the bathroom. There is one real long trail around Lake Raven, but I don't know if it has any bathrooms along it, so we haven't tried it yet. I expect that we will try to go every 6 weeks or so throughout the winter, until it gets hot in the woods. We will do some 2 day trips to increase our mileage if we can.

I was able to keep my eyes up ahead and follow the tree roots up to my feet with my peripheral vision, a real challenge I was not sure of. Of course, I kept my chin back, my back straight and my hips tucked under the whole time. I credit Bob Ashmore's advice on stairwalking this past several weeks with getting my hips in shape for all the up'n down steps. My hip joints stay fairly well worked out feeling all the time, but not quite sore. I'm still not ready for belly dancin' lessons tho. Maybe next year....

Thanks Bob, I appreciated all the help

Ya'll take care now, ya' hear????

[uki]

skip... you do know you can poop in the woods right? pee behind a tree and stuff... wipe yer butt with some moss or leaves(don't use poison ivy). :p

[Skip J.]

skip... you do know you can poop in the woods right? pee behind a tree and stuff... wipe yer butt with some moss or leaves(don't use poison ivy). :p
Ahhhhh.... uki my man.....

You sure do know how to get right to the heart of the matter.....

That's alright tho, you're gonna be in your 60's too one day...

Yes, on those extremely rare occasions when I have to go behind a tree anyway... my wife goes nuts worried that someone is gonna come down the trail.....

Most of the east Texas woods - well, all of it in private ownership - has a good bit of underbrush here and there, so you can't see very far at all.

But the CCC logged this park site in the 30's to help pay for the construction work, not a timber mill. So they left a lot of the big old trees uncut, which are now even bigger with the underbrush of that time grown up into pretty large trees too. So there's more shade here year-round, and the park also has the Forest Service control-burn every few years to help it along. You can see from ridge-top to ridge-top under the forest canopy, just like in the old days.

Of course, that thick canopy keeps the breeze out, which makes it hot and still from April to October.

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
You are welcome.
I too have a constant feeling of "worked out" in my core, hips and legs from my stair walking and bike riding.
I do sword and saber forms with heavy practice swords for upper body work outs.
I do like to keep in shape.
I do! Really!
PEAR is a shape! :p

I never hesitate to step behind a tree if other facilities are not available.
However, I always carry a pack of tissues.
Those leaves are a tad rough on the more delicate areas...

Bob

[Skip J.]

Skip,
You are welcome.
I too have a constant feeling of "worked out" in my core, hips and legs from my stair walking and bike riding.
I do sword and saber forms with heavy practice swords for upper body work outs.
I do like to keep in shape.
I do! Really!
PEAR is a shape! :p

I never hesitate to step behind a tree if other facilities are not available.
However, I always carry a pack of tissues.
Those leaves are a tad rough on the more delicate areas...

Bob
Well Bob;

It's gonna be awhile before I can hold my hands out when stair walking your way. Possibly forever before I do cloud hands on the stairs... I can only imagine how good a shape you're in. When the bad guys come in the middle of the night, I want you on my side....

I have no trouble stepping behind a tree, after a life of camping and working on the job outside. I can get downright creative wading in the marsh with no tree in sight for miles... On the other hand, my wife does not share in any of those life experiences... she would hate to wonder what those other ladies mite think seeing me come out from behind a tree. And truth be told, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a little bit of underbrush here and there.

I've never needed any tissues tho.... I make sure I'm squared away before I leave the house in the morning..

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I am really a pear shape. I was kidding but only by making light of it not by the reality.
I have what my wife refers to as "love handles". I've had them all my life regardless of my waist size or body mass index reading.
They simply will not go away.
When I was 23 and had a 28 inch waist, I still had love handles.
Now that I'm 47 with a 32 inch waist, I still have love handles.
I'm of average height and am well within what my doctor calls "healthy" weight range, I exercise for at least an hour every day, including aerobics and Tai Chi Chuan training, but I still have love handles.
When I turn sideways I have a nice flat belly, when I turn to face you or walk away from you it becomes clear that I still eat more than I practice.
I've finally come to terms with the fact that if I live to be a hundred years old and eat nothing but celery I will still have love handles.
C'est la vie!

As for those intruders in the night...
I train in the kung fu of Tai Chi Chuan, but I keep a loaded .45 in my bed side table.
An expression I believe in:
It's all well and good to know a form of Kung Fu...
But it's better to load your gun, fool!

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I am really a pear shape. I was kidding but only by making light of it not by the reality.
I have what my wife refers to as "love handles". I've had them all my life regardless of my waist size or body mass index reading.
They simply will not go away.
When I was 23 and had a 28 inch waist, I still had love handles.
Now that I'm 47 with a 32 inch waist, I still have love handles.
I'm of average height and am well within what my doctor calls "healthy" weight range, I exercise for at least an hour every day, including aerobics and Tai Chi Chuan training, but I still have love handles.
When I turn sideways I have a nice flat belly, when I turn to face you or walk away from you it becomes clear that I still eat more than I practice.
I've finally come to terms with the fact that if I live to be a hundred years old and eat nothing but celery I will still have love handles.
C'est la vie!

As for those intruders in the night...
I train in the kung fu of Tai Chi Chuan, but I keep a loaded .45 in my bed side table.
An expression I believe in:
It's all well and good to know a form of Kung Fu...
But it's better to load your gun, fool!


Hey Bob;

I'm 61 with a less-than 34" waist, but I am coming down from nearly 36" and 15 pounds I've lost slowly, all in the waist. My wife would never buy me more than a 34" waist pants, so it got uncomfortable the last decade or so... I don't even see that "pear" stuff on the side: if I ever get back to 32" I'll be a happy camper. I hate to sound like a broken record... but that business of not starting taiji until I was 56 has really held me back. I'm just now getting up to speed...... But as you say, coming to terms with my shape has been a major part of getting on down the road.

I'm not a gun kinda guy, but have no problems with those that do. My younger son kept guns here a long time until he finally sold'em. Mainly, we've always lived in suburbs where it is unlikely to happen; but it does happen here sometimes. Every now and then I think about what I mite do, but then forget about it.

Looks like we will be going out to Old Town Spring tomorrow for some early shopping. But we will be down by the duck pond before sunup to get our regular Saturday 6 miles in first. Of course, they don't unlock the bathroom until 7am, what a bummer....

More stairwalking.... in stairwalking in taiji posture, it is easier to go up the stairs because you can see them well; but going down is scary without looking down. What happens is that you tend to feel for the stair with your foot as you come down on it.

But.... with your taiji sink'n float added to the step; it's way easier to go down than up. As you say, the hip rides BACK, then down, then forward, then "places itself" on the floor. So it's easier to do that going downstairs than on level ground, and much easier than going up. Not what I expected at all. I still can only do it once a day, but there will come a day when I can go twice. And when that day comes, the second trip will be down.

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
Going up or down is about the same for me. But I've been about it for quite a long time now so for me it's second nature either way.
You are discovering your hips. They're part of your body and quite important to use in Tai Chi Chuan movement.
In fact, Grand Master Wu Kwong "Eddie" Wu (a former teacher of mine), just for one example, says they are absolutely critical.
I spend a good deal of time working on my fellow students, trying to get them to use their hips at all, then once they do find them I have to show them how to use them correctly. This stair walking has always been the best way to do it.
Everyone gets it, eventually, if they keep up this exercise.
Once you get the correct movement I don't know that it's necessary to keep up the stair walking. I still do, but most of my cohorts don't and they seem to be able to continue using their hips correctly after they stop.
I tell everyone to picture circles moving around where their hip sockets are. Make the circles go backwards. This movement sinks you into your root and expands your muscles correctly.
You will probably feel what I mean now that you are starting to feel the hips.

My teacher has a great saying, I'm not sure if he came up with it or if he got it from someone else, but it goes: "The language of Tai Chi Chuan is feeling".
By that he means, at least partly, that until you feel it you're not getting it.
You're starting to feel this part of your body. That's wonderful.
But just as there are numerous body parts, there are numerous places that you need to begin to "feel".
The hips are just the first place I shoot for with my fellow students. After you get that working, then start thinking of your waist.
Your waist sits on top of you hips (kua) but is distinctly seperate. You use them together but in entirely different ways.

You know, I could type all day and you still may not understand.
Here is a link to a Youtube clip of a speech that Eddie makes on body parts and how to use them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM&feature=related

Seeing is believing.

Bob

[Skip J.]

Excellent clip Bob; thanks!

Actually, our Master teaches body mechanics very similar to that when he gives us workshops; and our instructor always passes on to us what she learned. I guess I am far enough along that I should take body mechanics myself now, instead of taking just the form workshop, which is usually given on different days.

Yes. the difference between the hip action and the waist action was shown very well....... the movement of each is as we are taught, but just a whole lot more distance of movement to each one, and sometimes in different directions. So while similar, they are more powerful and complicated than our "beginning" movement, which certainly makes sense. I believe that a person would "feel" that all the way down to their toes....

On a completely different subject, we are instructed to hollow the chest and round the back on certain movements; but that is the first time I have ever seen an application of it. Very interesting indeed!

And yes, we did go walking before dawn Saturday in order to get that in before we went to Old Town Spring. Fortunately for me, they had the bathrooms unlocked at 7am; I was worried about that.

It's going to be awhile before a sink'n float before stepping up is as easy as stepping down for me. When that day comes, I'll begin doing more than one flight a day...

[Skip J.]

After 6 weeks of eating more meat and less salad than usual, and considerably less walking than usual... my weight is going back up. Since our last walk around Lake Raven in the fall, it has finally gotten cold and wet in Sugar Land. With two previous years of drought weather - to the extent we have it on the Gulf Coast - this is first time we've been walking both cold and wet. We've gotten out to the Duck Pond for 6 miles on every Saturday - and will be going tomorow, but being up'n out before dawn during the week has fallen off big time. Still, we went this morning, and most of last week.

Hey Bob; I can now go up'n down the stairs - 1 flight at a time - all day long in taiji posture, with my hands out in front. My hips are very well worked out as you know. How this will aid my taiji movements only time will tell; but I am sure it will be a major improvement. Still, I cannot go up or down more than one flight at a time in taiji posture; and I still cannot move my hands while stairstepping. It's gonna be a loooong time before I can do cloud hands while on the move... The hip soreness is not painful exactly... but they sure do sing out when going upstairs.

I'm now convinced more than ever.. when the bad guys come in the middle of the night... you're the guy I would want by my side.

Finally, there have been no taiji classes the last two weeks; and I admit to practicing taiji very little during this downtime... oh well, it's gonna be a long year before the competition next June.

We're already talking about scheduling our next Lake Raven walk for late January.. just need to start walking before dawn more...

[uki]

just need to start walking before dawn more...the morning stars are an excellent source of cosmic energy. :)

[Skip J.]

the morning stars are an excellent source of cosmic energy. :)
Hey uki....

You're absolutely right! I'm not sure my wife believes in all that stuff tho... When I talk like that she gives me that "shut it down right now" look... and it works every time...

In fact shes' the one that gets us out there before it's time for work... if it was up to me I'd stay fat and lazy forever...

Has me eating salads some these last two years and a whole lot less meat... altho lately it's been more meat than salads. We didn't go out this morning because I was gonna be working in the field all day, and getting plenty of walking in.

And, it's gonna be nice to finally have a taiji class this week...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I don't know if I'm the guy you want there in times of trouble. My application skills are less than my theory.
I can hold my own, but I'm no Yang Lu Chan. Heck, I'm not even very good comparted to most of the "real" fighters I know.
Lack of practice, more than anything else, leads to that.
There just aren't enough hours in my day as it is, if I tried to ad more sparring I'd be getting even less than my typical 6 hours of sleep every night.

That's good with the going up the stairs.
As to waving your arms...
Don't.
Move your waist. The arms should come along for the ride.
Aside from some "elbow" work and whole arm rotation your arms move with your waist and not independently.
I think it was Chen Man Ching (Zhenmanching) who said that he dreamed he had no arms and that's when finally figured out TCC.
If I've misquoted, I feel sure someone here will let me know!!

I too packed on a couple of pounds again over the holidays.
It's easy to do.
I eat so much salad I'm seriously thinking of painting a target on my back.
I used to believe that vegetables are not food, it's what food eats.
But now...
I'm old and my body can't take it any more. :rolleyes:

[Skip J.]

That's good with the going up the stairs.
As to waving your arms...
Don't.
Move your waist. The arms should come along for the ride.
Aside from some "elbow" work and whole arm rotation your arms move with your waist and not independently.
I think it was Chen Man Ching (Zhenmanching) who said that he dreamed he had no arms and that's when finally figured out TCC.
If I've misquoted, I feel sure someone here will let me know!!


Actually Bob;

That is the way of our style... turning at the waist..

independent arm and leg movements will not be allowed for me....

I've managed to drop 5 lbs so far, so maybe it's not all gonna stick ....

Still, I worked out on the jobsite in the cold today and walked about 5 miles up'n down. So I just finished a big plate of meat and potatos.

Easy come.. easy go...

[Skip J.]

I've managed to drop 5 lbs so far, so maybe it's not all gonna stick .... Still, I worked out on the jobsite in the cold today and walked about 5 miles up'n down. So I just finished a big plate of meat and potatos. Easy come.. easy go...
After 2 weeks of fieldwork (and one more to go) I've managed to keep the 5 lbs off, but not drop any more. I'm eating more salads, but also eating more of everything else while working out in the cold. After 2 classes - I'm beginning to get back into taiji "training" for the next meet in June (finally; I wasn't sure it was gonna happen until it did).

We are not walking before dawn at all right now, and missed our Saturday 6 miles around the duck pond for the first time since traveling out of town for Thanksgiving. We'll see what tomorrow brings, but the weather looks terrible right now.... We do plan on State Park walking for two days in the woods in 3 or 4 weeks; but will not make any room reservations until we can see a closer weather report.

Stairwalking - I can walk up'n down the stairs once per day with my hands/arms out in peng and turning at the waist, but no actual cloud hands as yet... I will confess that up'n back rotation of the hip socket is not so pronounced when I do it that way, which is perhaps for the best. At least, the sockets don't sing out quite so much when I do.

More training - As I learn a new step I try to go back and practice all of the ones before in flow so I won't have so much to do right at the end before the meet. This will be my first time in the "advanced" - and I'm not feeling "advanced" at all yet.

Instructing - I have decided not to start another Beginner class for the time being. Certainly not until after the June meet.... and maybe not then either. It is very distracting from training for competing.... I can see that now, but could not before. Instructing - even at just the Beginner level - is it's own area of expertise and requires all I have to give just for it. I can envy somewhat those retired folks who can do both; but my fate is to work for a long time in the future, maybe forever after this last downturn.

[Skip J.]

Skip,..Move your waist. The arms should come along for the ride.Aside from some "elbow" work and whole arm rotation your arms move with your waist and not independently. I think it was Chen Man Ching (Zhenmanching) who said that he dreamed he had no arms and that's when finally figured out TCC. If I've misquoted, I feel sure someone here will let me know!!
Alright.. I'm back to beginner.... I have never dreamed of taiji that I can remember..

On the other hand, we frequently train without any arms in class to learn exactly that. At least we are in good company! Trust me, I really do appreciate the value of my instructor's "teachings"; I just don't say very much about it here... As the kiddoes say.. "my bad"....

So... I can look forwards to dreaming "in" taiji someday.. truly amazing.. so much to learn, so little time!

Thanks Bob!

[uki]

so much to learn,you mean.... so much to remember...


so little time!10,000 years of experience and understanding can manifest in a single instant... time is a subjective construct based on ones personal perceptions. :)

[Skip J.]

you mean.... so much to remember...
10,000 years of experience and understanding can manifest in a single instant... time is a subjective construct based on ones personal perceptions. :)
Well.... you do have a way of bringing me back on track!!!

Thanks!

By the way, I see you changed your sig line... again...

[Skip J.]

Lake Raven: We went for our first trip of the year Friday and Saturday. It was cool and dry, some of the best weather all year!!!! We'll get up there again in March or April before it gets too hot and stuffy in the woods. We walked a quick three miles in the woods Friday afternoon and then went into Huntsville for dinner. The sun came out about 3pm and it got real hot the last mile or so. It just about killed us both...

Saturday we put in 5 hard miles up'n down before lunch, and the weather was cool. We had no problems at all like we did on Friday. There was one instance of hiding behind trees tho.....

At Home: We went out again here before dawn on Sunday for a few miles, with it clear and cool, great weather! We have been getting out on Sunday before dawn almost every weekend after walking 6 miles at the Houston duck pond on Saturdays. But...... since the week before Thanksgiving we have not walked during the week hardly at all... I've lost a few of the holiday lbs... but am still carrying at least 10 more than I started the holidays with.

In Class I am on the downhill slope learning the 32 and should finish the first run-thru soon. But it's only 5 months until the Dallas meet, so there's not very much time to learn all the details very well. This is going to be one of my rougher performances I suppose...

Between Classes: I try to do the form at least once every day, so I can learn something new the next class. It doesn't always work out that way tho... 2 or 3 days a week I can usually have a day where I do the form several times during the day.

Stairwalking: I try to do Bob's stairwalking at least once per day up'n down one flight. Sometimes I manage 2 or 3 trips. I can hold my hands out in peng and turn at the waist a little bit as I go up'n down, but no cloud hands as yet.

Progress: It's amazing, but Bob's "hip socket workout" is showing solid benefit in a very short time. A week or so ago, I noticed that my hips were naturally twisting more forward and back as I walked on the flat street with no effort to do so. This lengthens the stride while walking and greatly contributes to stepping out into a lower stance in the form. Sooo...., a regular hip socket workout promotes a lower, more solid stance. Then in the woods I noticed that it was happening there too, so my natural stride is lengthening in the up'n down process also, very cool!!!!

[kfson]

You're a little south from me. I head out to Gilmer and Lake of the Pines.

[Skip J.]

You're a little south from me. I head out to Gilmer and Lake of the Pines.Hello kfson;

Actually, I grew up in South Oak Cliff, moved to north Garland, and then to Plano; before moving to Sugar Land in 1980. When I come up to compete in Plano in the summertime I stay at mom's in north Garland. As a life-long fisherman until 10 years ago... I used to know Lake o' the Pines well, as well as many other n. TX lakes. At least you're getting out to the trees, away from those muddy lakes around Dallas. It's gonna be awhile before those east TX lake rec areas degenerate from excess human impacts... One of the reasons we like it here is the trees, both in our yard and where we go to get away...

It has really been a major challenge to me to walk over the forest floor of constant tree roots without looking down - and while also being very relaxed - and not stumbling because of it. The shoulders want to tense up in anticipation of tripping and needing to prevent a fall; so to let it all go and still depend only on peripheral vision where I'm stepping is two opposite extremes.

Walking on wooded trails here is great, except that 9 months of the year it's just too hot and the air is too still in the woods to go. Maybe this is the year we start going during hot weather, but we never have yet...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I'm glad the hip socket workout is showing progress for you.
I, too, was flat out amazed by it when I first learned it. It really brought a lot of what I was missing in TCC out for me and since that time I teach it to all of my students. Universally it is the training that gets the most comments from my students, almost all good, as this is probably the single most forgotten part of the body by almost everyone.
If you want more "hip socket" training, there is only one place I know of to get the moves but good luck finding it! I have no way to get my hands on this at this time. I am currently investigating if it is still available but I have had no luck so far and I have a direct line with the person who created it.
I have a DVD of a Master Han Hoong Wang, Michigan Yang Cheng Fu Tai Chi Chuan Center Director, teaching the Traditional Yang Family 13 Posture Hand Form. On it, at the very beginning, Master Han (who I had the priviledge to meet at the Symposium in Nashville and who my mother is currently training with) teaches several "warm ups". I watched this part of the DVD when I first got it, probably eight or nine years ago, but then haven't watched it since as, in my arrogance, I assumed I was doing plenty of warms ups.
But about two or three months ago I had lost my DVD remote controller and so when I plugged in my DVD to get some clarification on the form prior to teaching a class for a friend while he went out of town (I mostly practice the 16 Posture Hand Form now when I do a short form, so I needed a quick refresher on the sequence) I was forced to watch it again.
I had an eye opener of epic proportions.
Master Hans "warm ups" are very, very good and include many of what my friends are now calling "hip wiggling" exercises that directly correlate to my "stair walking" movements, only on flat ground, as well as some stretches and warm up movements that I recognize as clearly coming from the Chen style warm ups I learned in Nashville (Master Han also teaches Chen style).
I now use Master Hans warm up set first thing every morning and I have never felt so flexible and limber throughout the day.
Just goes to show you, NEVER take your eyes off of gems like this!!! You never know what you will miss.

On another note, a student of mine went to China on a business trip lately. She has picked up my "hip wigglin" and when she came back she told me, all amazed, "You know those hip warm ups you taught me? They do them in all the parks in China before they start to do their form. But they do them for a LOT longer than we do, like twenty minutes."
That was good feedback for me.
Also, GM Yang Zhen Duo while on the stage at the Symposium also demonstrated a bit of what I call "hip wigglin'". He turned his back to the audience and did the hip rotations very quickly, to large applause.
There were a lot of people coming out of there asking, "What was that thing he did with his lower back and legs?".
I just grinned.
I think this is a pretty big piece of the TCC puzzle that I stumbled across through belly dancing.
No matter where it comes from, as long as you learn it it really does take you quite far.
The above mentioned student tells me that her Yoga has taken huge leaps forward since she has started doing the "hip wigglin'" as well and her Yoga teacher has asked her where she learned it.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
The more you know, the faster you will learn.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I'm glad the hip socket workout is showing progress for you.
I, too, was flat out amazed by it when I first learned it. It really brought a lot of what I was missing in TCC out for me and since that time I teach it to all of my students. Universally it is the training that gets the most comments from my students, almost all good, as this is probably the single most forgotten part of the body by almost everyone.
............................On another note, a student of mine went to China on a business trip lately. She has picked up my "hip wigglin" and when she came back she told me, all amazed, "You know those hip warm ups you taught me? They do them in all the parks in China before they start to do their form. But they do them for a LOT longer than we do, like twenty minutes."
That was good feedback for me.
Also, GM Yang Zhen Duo while on the stage at the Symposium also demonstrated a bit of what I call "hip wigglin'". He turned his back to the audience and did the hip rotations very quickly, to large applause.
There were a lot of people coming out of there asking, "What was that thing he did with his lower back and legs?".
I just grinned.
I think this is a pretty big piece of the TCC puzzle that I stumbled across through belly dancing.
No matter where it comes from, as long as you learn it it really does take you quite far.
The above mentioned student tells me that her Yoga has taken huge leaps forward since she has started doing the "hip wigglin'" as well and her Yoga teacher has asked her where she learned it.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
The more you know, the faster you will learn.

Hello Bob;

It continues to amaze me that any taiji training can have such "quick" results. Mostly, I train taiji for several years and then notice some "improvement" in practice. In comparison, hip socket workouts have made a lightening fast improvement to both flexibility and strength - which are usually two separate issues.... but not this time.

Check me out here and let me know if I'm way outta line.....

The hip socket rotation workout allows the hip to "flex" further forward than before, after about 6 weeks of workout. This lengthens the stride about the same amount, which happens while chi walking distances of several miles. When walking out in the woods like last weekend, there is the combined up'n down of the trail that makes use of the lengthened stride. Strength and balance are also increased by about the same amount.

When playing the form, I now step out into a deeper stance with more strength and balance than just a short while before. The velocity/momentum I arrive at the posture's stance is stronger, consequently I think this improvement is translating directly into a tangible increase in combat power.

Am I smokin' dope here????

Just one more comment and I'll finish.... when the hip comes more forward during chi walking due to lengthened stride, it also works out the turning at the waist - core - center - dan tien - considerably more than before. When walking 8 miles over 2 days up'n down in the woods last week - with a considerably lengthened stride over my previous several years of trips - I felt the dan tien getting a hardcore workout along with the hip sockets.

So this week, guess what? In addition to the improving combat power I've noticed in the past month in stepping out, suddenly this week I turn at the waist further and with more strength and balance. Sure enough, it seems that the momentum turning at the waist gives the hands right before meeting the enemy is enhanced by the stronger waist movement. Soooo..., this seems to add to increased combat power too...

What do you think?????

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I think you're hitting it right on the head.
This training has returned immediate, tangible results for everyone I have ever worked with on it.
The quickness of the results is a combination of the better understanding you now have of the waist/hip/kua combination and the increased flexibility and rooting inherint in the practice of using them, and your entire body, together in a coordinated and correct fashion.

Eddie Wu used to tell me, "You have to get your hip into it" when he talked about transmitting power. He did his best to show me what he meant.
Unfortunately I did not understand what he was telling me at the time. I THOUGHT I did, but it took me a LOT of useless flailing about before I finally "got" this and it took someone from a different discipline to teach it to me. I recognized what it was immediately upon feeling it, after all Eddie tried and tried and tried to teach me, but I was not ready at that time to hear it.
I should have listened closer to what he was telling me. He was pushing gold into my pockets but I didn't have the sense to understand what he was saying.

Ah, well. At least I figured it out...
Eventually.

Bob

[Skip J.]

Hey Bob;

Either I am wayyyy out in left field, or that is exactly how I "feel" about it, whatever that means....

After about the first year of a beginner learning what "turn the whole body, no independent arm or leg movements" means, we add in the "turn at the waist" as an additional detail, and stress that more as time goes on. As a practical matter, some beginners are ready for that at 3 months and some never are. Kinda hard to tell with folks in their 60's, and 70's, and 80's when they start.

In particular, we step into the posture, then shift our weight forward, then turn at the waist. When you can do this smoothly in flow, the hands and/or feet achieve a momentum that directs whatever combat power you can generate onto the enemy at the most efficient rate for that person. I have spent the last two years breathing into my dan tien and trying to direct that energy down into rooting. It's not easy and I'm not there yet. I sure can't maintain it while stepping out.

So I come to your method developing the combat power I can, envisioning landing the strike on the enemy, and developing the root I can so far. Kind of an advanced beginner maybe. Each increment developed and learned and implemented takes at least months, and years for most parts. While I may never be able to do what you do (I was a whole lot older when I started than you), still adding in another inch or two to my hip travel almost doubles the whole-body momentum normally generated by turning at the waist.

It's a two-part method. First, I step out further and faster with more power, and land lower and more balanced with more strength in stance. That's important for us old guys with less strength to start with. Then I turn at the waist, translating the combined momentum into the hand and/or leg movement and throw it another inch further with that side of the body. A serious velocity is achieved when the "posture" meets the enemy.

I mean, it's startling at first when you're not ready for it. It's kind of a "hey did I just do that?" moment....

I think I need to change the title of this thread to stairwalking....

Moving on, I'm going to see how this works and affects stepping backwards. Some of the more advanced rollback moves entail serious turning at the waist in dodging the enemy attack.... It strikes me that I can step back further, faster, and with more strength and balance than before... amazing...

[Skip J.]

Now there is an appropriate title!!!

Remember that Bob's hip socket workout while stairwalking is like this:

It is very much like exaggerating the movement of the upper leg bone in the hip socket during sink'n float to step out in taiji posture, or doing the taiji walk. Look at the sink'n float you already do this way, you stand on the back leg and sink down. This movement actually rotates the hip socket around the leg bone and behind it a little bit. The slack in your front leg provided by the sink of the back leg allows you to step out into the taiji posture with the front leg. If you are doing the taiji walk, then you follow it with stepping out onto the other leg. This works fine on a flat floor, or even better going downstairs... trust me on that.... All of the sink'n floats you do for whatever taiji practice - work the hip socket out a bit, even tho you don't think about it.

But, what is missing on the flat floor, or going downstairs is rotating the hip socket on further around the leg bone back to the front. Say what??? That's right, completing the circle of rotation of both parts around each other... then stepping out with the other leg and doing the same with it - over and over and over again. It's a killer, you better be in top shape, that is, your hip socket better be in top shape before you even try it.

And the way to train this secret method of the Masters???

Do it going upstairs.... stairwalking for short. Betcha can't do more than one flight of stairs at first. When you can do it, then hold your hands out in peng as you go up and do "cloud hands".

Surprise, surprise! In 6 short weeks you will increase your combat power considerably! You'll also be able to suddenly do some other amazin' things you never thought of...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
That is a good breakdown of what happens.
However, you are overlooking a vital part of the exchange.
That "move forward weight" moment is crucial to TCC combat.
Why?
Good question, I'm glad you asked. :rolleyes:
First, let's look at the process of stepping.
Huh?
Yep, the entire process is involved.
I hope you understand that stepping in TCC needs to be deliberate, controlled, not hurried, not heavy.
To do this requires you to use all of the joints in your feet, your knees, your hips.
We'll stop there. You seem to have the waist movement down fairly well.
When you step, follow this sequence:
Step like you have no legs. You have this started, use your hips/waist/kua combination to step out.
Place the stepping (we'll go with a forward step here) foot on the heel, gently.
Move forward weight from the center, bend front knee slightly (front and back work together, one pushes, one controls, so use back leg to push, front leg to control while rolling the hips correctly to keep you from bouncing), bend ankle to let the ball of your foot touch the ground.
Bend knee a little more, toes grip the ground. This completes the rooting process.
Now, push with back leg, accept and control with front knee bending.

This is a breakdown, a way to learn all the seperate components. This should become smooth and integrated over time.

Again, this is only for the legs. The waist turn happens next, power is transmitted to hands.

But let's go back to the moving forward, bending knees slightly part, the stuff that happens before you launch yourself with the coiled energy in your back leg.
Why do you think this is crucial in TCC combat?

I'm going to let you think about that, as I'm crunched for time.
I will see what you think when I can get back, maybe tonight, most likely tomorrow.
Think about the timing of this, what are you doing with an opponent during this time?

Bob

[Skip J.]

When you step, follow this sequence:
Step like you have no legs. You have this started, use your hips/waist/kua combination to step out.
Place the stepping (we'll go with a forward step here) foot on the heel, gently.
Move forward weight from the center, bend front knee slightly (front and back work together, one pushes, one controls, so use back leg to push, front leg to control while rolling the hips correctly to keep you from bouncing), bend ankle to let the ball of your foot touch the ground.
Bend knee a little more, toes grip the ground. This completes the rooting process.
Now, push with back leg, accept and control with front knee bending.

This is a breakdown, a way to learn all the seperate components. This should become smooth and integrated over time.

Again, this is only for the legs. The waist turn happens next, power is transmitted to hands.

But let's go back to the moving forward, bending knees slightly part, the stuff that happens before you launch yourself with the coiled energy in your back leg.
Why do you think this is crucial in TCC combat?

I'm going to let you think about that, as I'm crunched for time.
I will see what you think when I can get back, maybe tonight, most likely tomorrow.
Think about the timing of this, what are you doing with an opponent during this time?

Bob

I am going to be thinking about this Bob; but I'm going to have to actually do it this way to figure it out - so I won't be back in here til this time tomorrow....

By the way.. we call this body mechanics... but I've not taken that workshop yet, so here I am.. fat, dumb, and well you get the picture...

Thanks again Bob!

I'm gonna be downright dangerous when I've got 22 years in... of course, I'll be nearly 80 then...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
I am, unfortunately, pressed for time again today.
However, the stepping as I have described it is a "whole body" movement. It moves the weight of and roots your entire body in a single, fluid, controlled motion.
This allows you to do many things, but mostly it allows you to meet with your opponent (almost exclusively a Ward Off application), listen to them and sometimes offset them.
I am speaking of "listening" energy when I say "listen". This allows you to understand your opponent.
If you are already in contact with your opponent, you can use this whole body energy to offest your opponent, grip him, move him slightly, a combination of one or more of these things, or even "bump" him out if you are properly aligned with his center.
Many crucial things happen in this moment of whole body movement.
Unfortunately, it is often overlooked by the "health" crowd when they teach the art. I don't know if this is deliberate or simply a lack of understanding, but I cannot begin to tell you how many times I run into people who have only studied for health who do not even know this method exists in their art.

Not a condemnation, if they are not in this for the martial art then there may be no reason for them to know this.
I do not know if there is a "health" reason for this aspect of the movement, so I cannot speak to why it is usually not included in their instruction.

Bob

[Skip J.]

Skip,
I am, unfortunately, pressed for time again today.
However, the stepping as I have described it is a "whole body" movement. It moves the weight of and roots your entire body in a single, fluid, controlled motion.
This allows you to do many things, but mostly it allows you to meet with your opponent (almost exclusively a Ward Off application), listen to them and sometimes offset them.
I am speaking of "listening" energy when I say "listen". This allows you to understand your opponent.
If you are already in contact with your opponent, you can use this whole body energy to offest your opponent, grip him, move him slightly, a combination of one or more of these things, or even "bump" him out if you are properly aligned with his center.
Many crucial things happen in this moment of whole body movement.
Unfortunately, it is often overlooked by the "health" crowd when they teach the art. I don't know if this is deliberate or simply a lack of understanding, but I cannot begin to tell you how many times I run into people who have only studied for health who do not even know this method exists in their art.

Not a condemnation, if they are not in this for the martial art then there may be no reason for them to know this.
I do not know if there is a "health" reason for this aspect of the movement, so I cannot speak to why it is usually not included in their instruction.

Bob

Ummmm Bob;

I was going thru the motions - of the step out you describe above - this morning for my take a break taiji; and thinking about guessing what you meant.... then in sails your new post saving me from myself, one more time....

Actually, I was "focusing" on the transfer of rooting from the back foot to the front foot as that is where I'm floundering at the moment. So, I would have been close at least... I read of "listening energy", but without any 2 person practice, have no way to experience it myself.

I am fortunate in that my instructor does not hide the martial apps, even from the very first class. She'll make a lot of references to the health benefits of taiji with beginning students; but she has us putting our mind in our feet in beginning stance and stepping out, and our mind in our hands when settling into the posture. She'll never say she teaches taiji "as a martial art" because she would have to take a lot of expensive private lessons to learn the actual apps. But she says that the taiji is a martial art, several times during every class. The only time she mentions envisioning holding a ball or pushing a cloud is during warmups, and then only with beginners. And here is the best part.... me and her and her instructor and everyone in every class is there for the health part; theres' not a martial guy or gal in the bunch and never has been as far as I know. Sooo.. I am a lucky guy and I know it!

Now I have heard of instructors who hide the martial apps, or don't know them themselves..... but have never experienced that myself.

Where was I? Oh yeah, the step out process you describe is the same in total as we learn. It's these little details you provide that are so, ummm, well detailed. I can see that by breaking the process up into all those parts (that) it requires you to think about them separately as you step, thereby leading to the rooting while stepping process. The effect on combat power is that you have transferred the rooted stance of the beginning (horse stance) to rooting of the stance of the movement's posture as you deliver your hands on the enemy.

What the enemy is doing is moving towards you with evil intent, and is almost on you at that moment right before you meet him. That means he is over confident in his ability to conquer, he is between steps and not rooted himself and consequently easy to uproot with a ward off, or pull him on in the direction he's going with a roll back; and if you hit him with an elbow or shoulder, he's toast.

Here's another one of your "secrets" for the folks at home: rooting on both feet when in combat stance at the moment of impact is when it's important, not when you're in beginning stance before moving. This allows whatever combat power you have to be transferred to the enemy right at the moment he is stepping on one foot, off balance, and very not-prepared for it. It comes as a complete surprise. Reminds me very much of the old "Billy Jack" movies, which I was quite fond of.

[Skip J.]

As soon as I started rotating my foot as Bob describes above, my mind wanders into thinking of the judges on "Dancing with the Stars" always talking about "heel leads". Now I know what they mean.. I think.

The difference between this step and the normal TCC step-out is so minimal that very few could actually see the difference between the two. One of the reasons is that there isn't much to see; it's mostly in the mind.

The normal step-out begins with setting the heel down and then shifting weight forward to set the ball of the foot down firmly before turning at the waist and delivering whatever the hands are doing.

Bob's ankle socket rotation clue he describes above, differs in that the ankle socket itself rotates the lower leg bone forward to pull the foot down onto the ground, providing velocity before weight is shifted forward, and then the foot grips the ground to continue to do so as the weight shifts forward with all of the added velocity. With this thought process involved, there is no doubt that the front foot is rooted and the stance is a well-balanced low 50-50 before the waist turns and brings the hands with it.

Mercy! I mean, is there no upper limit to what can be done to each part of the body to increase combat power???? Amazing... truly amazing...


Full disclosure: I can do the ankle socket rotation workout a little bit walking on the flat. After 6 miles Saturday and 2 miles Sunday, my ankles are singing loudly...

But... I cannot do them yet at the same time as stairwalking upstairs with a hip socket rotation.

And... after "energetically" walking like that with a longer stride from a looser hip movement, my hip sockets were singing loudly too.....

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
My advice would be to make haste a little more slowly.

You seem to be grasping the stepping pattern quite well though.
Yes, the idea is not to move your center forward all at once, rather in a smooth, integrated fashion as appropriate. This allows you to root before you ever need to issue jing.

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).

And for crying out loud....
SLOW DOWN A LITTLE!
It takes years to figure this stuff out, relax and enjoy it rather than pushing yourself to the point of pain.
Believe me, it will work a LOT better that way.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
My advice would be to make haste a little more slowly.

You seem to be grasping the stepping pattern quite well though.
Yes, the idea is not to move your center forward all at once, rather in a smooth, integrated fashion as appropriate. This allows you to root before you ever need to issue jing.

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).

And for crying out loud....
SLOW DOWN A LITTLE!
It takes years to figure this stuff out, relax and enjoy it rather than pushing yourself to the point of pain.
Believe me, it will work a LOT better that way.

Ah well Bob; you have identified the issue from afar.... it does look like I am incorportaing some external "pushing the possible" a bit fast to be able to include TCC principles, don't it? Truth be told, if I didn't have 2 years of chi walking done, I wouldn't be ready to even consider stairwalking as you describe it.

On the other hand I do - just barely - understand what you're saying - and I guess I want to get it down in print before one of us goes away..... Part of my background is that I do practice an attitude of "if there is any pain, then it is not TCC" including being out of breath. So to get to here, it has been a slowwww process; very much a TCC process. For instance, when walking 6 miles Saturday; I noticed the hips would sing the instant they went one little bit forward past my workout level. That was a constant issue because you are building up some speed when walking that brings the leg forward which pulls the hip forward with inertia. I am not adding in the ankle roll - anymore than I already do so naturally - at all; only implementing the ankle roll when stepping out into posture here at home once or twice at a time. So to me it seems I am being slow about the whole thing; but singing hips and ankles say maybe not I guess.

For now, I'll keep on stairwalking several times a day, but maybe just do the ankle roll once a week to keep it in my mind. I know it will be at least a year before I can do the ankle roll in class, but as you say, it takes as long as it takes....

Actually my knees are my weak joints. I haven't had to wear my knee straps for years, but started back recently when it came time to start learning kicks in the form. Probably your good words on the knees may be the best info I need at the moment.

Moving on somewhat impatiently, but slowwwly.....

Thanks Bob!

[Skip J.]

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).
Ok - I just did a flight of stairs with a knee socket workout. I'm not going to be doing that again without having both my knee straps on!

I'm sure that I am not going to be able to combine a hip socket rotation into a knee socket rotation into an ankle socket rotation for at least a year... While it looks oh so slow on the outside, that is a whole lotta thinking going on at one time.

But I can readily see that Bob has so kindly provided me the parts and pieces of the answer to my problem about maintaining my root when stepping out. In fact, in a few short days; he has completely redefined the nature of rooting for me. It's one thing to talk about it; but a whole 'nuther thing entirely to actually give it a try to do it.

Of course, I'll try just about anything if it's a TCC principle.....

[Skip J.]

I'm sure that I am not going to be able to combine a hip socket rotation into a knee socket rotation into an ankle socket rotation for at least a year... While it looks oh so slow on the outside, that is a whole lotta thinking going on at one time.



I just thought I would practice the knee rotation by itself for awhile until I had it a little bit better. Silly me...

Bob said:

"it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips)."

Well... in order to do the knee rotation going upstairs; "doing" the ankle and hip rotation is all part of the same movement, the knee cannot be be done by itself without incorporating the other two into the "movement". At least not now, maybe later... Good thing I can kinda-sorta do the other two already....

I guess I'm not slowing down any huh???? Well, I tried...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

Thanks once again for your kinds words Bob; but perhaps I have overstated my understanding of what you are saying and implied I could actually do them a bit. If so, I apologize deeply.

Over the past 5 years I have followed this big-to-small concept in my hand movements, mostly in peng postures with our largest arm/hand movements. When all the visible movement is actually being done by the center/back legs/waist; then following the big-to-small is not easy at all. Consequently, once again, I think I have a handle on your big-to-small concept for hip/knee/ankle rotations. But its' gonna be awhile before I can do them together at all, much less refine them. We're talking several years here I think to get from here to there.

[Skip J.]

We've got our reservations for Lake Raven this weekend and expect to put in 10 or 12 miles of the deadly dangerous forest walking.

I'm gonna be kinda quiet here for awhile - except for some of the litehearted threads maybe.

My instructor passed away suddenly a few days ago, and we're all in shock here now.

Rest in Peace Donna K.; we will all miss you so......

Ya'll take care now, watch the approaching bus and don't let it run you down...

[Skip J.]

Life does go on, don't it??????? The students are planning a first class memorial for all of the classes together this week..... next week we all go on.

We did go to Lake Raven and work out our demons this weekend, it was great! We did a speedy 6 miles on Friday and 7 miles on Saturday - about the most we've ever done....

Moving too fast to do any deliberate hip-knee-ankle rotations; but the extra hip-flex which comes with the stairwalking training got a real workout. They don't hurt, but they sure are singing....

Being able to sense the tree roots coming without looking down is now becoming second nature! The trick is to deliberately step on them rather than try to step over them, unless they're really high off the ground. When you step on them you know for sure where they really are.

[KTS]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

i actually like to start with larger warm up and silk reeling exercises. many times, for the movement, i will start from small, expand, then contract and repeat.

but, i know exactly what u are saying. generally taught, movement are more large to help open the body and increase muscle tone, etc.

also, for health, large movements are more mandatory, but for martial application, one has to perfect the smaller movements after larger frame work. the martial side though, will increase health benefits. so, i think both larger and smaller frame movements have certain health purposes, just on different levels.

[Skip J.]

i actually like to start with larger warm up and silk reeling exercises. many times, for the movement, i will start from small, expand, then contract and repeat.

but, i know exactly what u are saying. generally taught, movement are more large to help open the body and increase muscle tone, etc.

also, for health, large movements are more mandatory, but for martial application, one has to perfect the smaller movements after larger frame work. the martial side though, will increase health benefits. so, i think both larger and smaller frame movements have certain health purposes, just on different levels.
Hello KTS;

The style I take is a small frame style, so I don't have much experience with large frame movements. But the charge Bob has given me is very different from my own experience for just that reason, so I have to practice it on a large scale just to be able to see it. Actually, just to be able to envision it before I do it.

Rotating the hip socket around the leg bone is a natural part of sink-and-float. But you add in a step going upstairs and then it gets real complicated real fast.

[Skip J.]

Rotating the hip socket around the leg bone is a natural part of sink-and-float. But you add in a step going upstairs and then it gets real complicated real fast.
I am going to take a day - or two - and forget the hands while I reinforce the sink-and-float (while) stepping upstairs with hip/knee/ankle socket rotations. A while back Bob said go slowwwly, and it's time for that now. A part of what Bob added with the cloud hands movement was a side-to-side aspect that facilitates the whole process. So - for the moment - I'm dropping the hand-scoop part of the CH movement and concentrating on utilizing the side-to-side momentum as flow to enable the step-up part. I already know the upward scoop of the arm will add a bit more upward momentum to the body stepping up.

[Bob Ashmore]

It does, and the extension of the other arm adds to the side to side with the waist turn being incorporated as a whole body movement.
Don't overturn, don't forget to fold.

Yes, big to small. After you've acheived that, then small or big as you need it.
Large frame is for learning the movements and health aspects. Medium and small frames are also for health but more difficult and much more likely the frame you would use in a free fight (but if you think you can't use large frame in a free fight, you might want to think again).
However, if you don't see something first you won't even know it needs to be done. For that the large frame is far superior as nothing is "hidden" or internalized to the point where there is no outward movement.
Until you see that you even have something to learn how will you know to do it? Once you have learned the movement properly then you can make it progressevily smaller until you are able to make it so small others can't see you do it.

[Skip J.]

I'm gonna make it... I think.

[Skip J.]

Well, I was kinda quiet there for about 10 days.

Bob's Stairwalking Hip-Knee-Ankle Rotations:
Put in a good 6 miles Saturday on the flat and will go again tomorrow. Utilizing Bob's "split the hips from each other" method has lengthened my stride a little bit and added some combat power to the turn-at-the-waist.

So here I am cruisin' along extending each hip a little forwards each time that leg steps out. Can you just imagine splitting the hips for 6 miles of power walking... not strolling along slow? Well, If you haven't actually done it, you can't imagine it either. You talk about singin' out, my hips were talking to me for the next 3 days...... strongly!

uki's Running in Boulders with 2 Swords:
Ya'll mite remember that I started this thread from uki's post about running in boulders with swords....

After we finished the 6 miles and were walking thru the Japanese gardens to cool down; my wife headed for her favorite part, walking on the natural stone path. uki has some experience laying stone I have heard. Anyway, here we are cruisin' down these round-top stones and I decide what the heck, and start walking with my chin back and eyes straight ahead and not looking at the stones as I stepped on'em.

I did manage to not trip and fall over about 100' of path; but it was a close thing several time. Sooo... naturally I'm thinking of uki's post while I'm doin' it.

[Skip J.]

More woods walking on Friday and Saturday a few weeks back. Been busy lately and haven't been on here much since we started a new job.

I need to get my head together and get squared away to compete in Dallas in June. I am right at the end of learning the 32 and doing my best not to crater at the last minute. I know all you long timers did this a decade ago, but for me it is all new....

See ya'll in Dallas!