shamanism in imitative kung fu

[Thomas316]

hello hello everyone, i had several questions about the connection between shamanism and imitative kung fu forms.

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form? what does it really take to perform an animal form the shamanistic way?

is seven star praying mantis considered an imitative style?

i need to know these facts because im a Christian and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.

[Lucas]

you dont have to worry about shamanistic practices in regards to martial arts. its all blood, and sweat.

[David Jamieson]

First, let me say this about that.

Bwahahahahaahahahahaa.

Ok.

Now who exactly is saying you have to take a spirit inside of you in order to do your exercise and martial art training?

I'd be more worried about any sort of nonsense like that overshadowing any actual worthwhile training regimen.

Otherwise, don't worry about it. Jesus loves the Kungfu man!

[GeneChing]

Jesus makes me think of lions... and lambs.

Some do interpret imitative forms as shamanism. Others just think of it as mascots, kind of like the Chicago Cubs. Are the Cubs shamans? Not tonight. The Giants are gonna kick their asses. :p

[David Jamieson]

spirits of giants will always beat spirits of cubs like red headed step children too!

in shamanism anyway.

Unless I was shaman, then things would be a lot different!

[uki]

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form?yes...


what does it really take to perform an animal form the shamanistic way?intention...


i need to know these facts because im a Christian i am sorry to hear that...


and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.you are already marked by the evils of the internet... your forehead gazes upon the beast and your right hand controls the mouse you use to link to it. :)

[David Jamieson]

yes...
intention...
i am sorry to hear that...
you are already marked by the evils of the internet... your forehead gazes upon the beast and your right hand controls the mouse you use to link to it. :)

****s sake uki, you weren't supposed to tell him then were you.

Now he's gonna spread that and the darkness will never overcome the world of man and the true believers are eaten first as a courtesy of Cthulu EA EA!!!

anyway, party pooper. :mad:

[mawali]

hello hello everyone, i had several questions about the connection between shamanism and imitative kung fu forms.

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form? what does it really take to perform an animal form the shamanistic way?

is seven star praying mantis considered an imitative style?

i need to know these facts because im a Christian and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.


O Holy One!
If there is doubt, the best thing is to stay away from things you feel or imagine will
control you.

[ittokaos]

Ok, I will assume that you are wise enough to realize that you shouldnt listen to their mocking of your faith. Walk the path that is right for you. ;D

I too am a Christian however I have not once struggled with shamanism in my kung fu. I think that you are thinking it is similar to the shamanism of Native Americans and I suppose it is similar but I believe the Native Americans are "possessed"(usually due to hallucinations caused by one thing or another) by the spirit of the animal(and thus begin to imitate it) which is different than the kung fu way of doing it(in my experience).

The kung fu way is more about the mindset/fighting principles of the animal as well as the imitation of it's movements. For example, Bak Mei is a combo of all five (shaolin) animals which are the crane, snake, tiger, leopard, and dragon. We are told to have the spirit of the leopard(dragon or tiger depending on what your lineage follows) but it has more to do with the way it fights/thinks. A tiger would be a fierce opponent therefore one would adopt a more ferocious way of fighting. the leopard relys on speed and power as well as being sneaky(hence the spots) therefore one would adopt a fighting pattern based around speed, strength, as well as sneak attacks. The dragon appears and disappears at will and is powerful therefore one would adopt a pattern that revolves around power generation and footwork. All of these are simply basic illustrations but I hope they have helped.

As for the shaman thing, shamanistic practices are more about involving yourself in shamanistic activities relating to a spiritual nature. Communing with the spirits of the trees and such and less about using a bug to help teach you about fighting.

BTW, Seven Star Mantis is an imitative style.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, don't pay attention to the men behind the curtain.

:D

[GeneChing]

...not that we should ever speak of the unspeakable one, did you know there's a Cthulhu perfume now? Eau de Cthulhu (http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/poetry.html).

It's all about the Lion (http://www.martialartsmart.com/46-2004g.html)of Judah for me.

[ghostexorcist]

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form?


intention...


Uki is right.

I don't think I've ever seen any animal have more intent than a cat (of any size) about to attack something. The way they focus their eyes on the target, lay in wait motionless, and finally explode forward like lightning. It is this powerful intent that should be imitated and not some misguided supernatural yearning to take on the target animal's disembodied spirit.

[SPJ]

hello hello everyone, i had several questions about the connection between shamanism and imitative kung fu forms.

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form? what does it really take to perform an animal form the shamanistic way?

is seven star praying mantis considered an imitative style?

i need to know these facts because im a Christian and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.

1. shaman or religious practice is another big topic altogether.

2. kung fu mimicking the things and animals in the nature.

1. xing or shape/form, the moves are mimicking the functions of the moves from things and animals in nature.

2. yi, intent or will, the moves are not look alikes but have a similar function or purpose.

3. shen, the spirits/personalities/characters of the things and animals, such as lightening fast and fatal strikes of a cobra, ferocities of a tiger,--

we possess or train to have the functions and characters of things and animals in the nature.

but we do not summon cobra, or a tiger to possess or control us.

7* and plum flower mantis have a lot of look alike or shapes of a mantis moving its forearms.

however, 6 harmony mantis, the moves have similar properties or functions, but they do not look alike at all--

in mantis, actually, your steps are light like those of a chicken and some are like that of a monkey

even thou your forearms are like those of a mantis

do you become a chicken or a chicken possessing you, no not really.

leave your religious practice out of the way.

---

[Hebrew Hammer]

I'm Jewish, I can't speak for Jesus, but God is ok with it.

[David Jamieson]

I'm Jewish, I can't speak for Jesus, but God is ok with it.

well, that's all well and fine, but remember, Jesus was a Jew too.

:p

[MightyB]

Jesus makes me think of lions... and lambs.

Some do interpret imitative forms as shamanism. Others just think of it as mascots, kind of like the Chicago Cubs. Are the Cubs shamans? Not tonight. The Giants are gonna kick their asses. :p

The Tigers are definitely shamans... @ss kicking shamans.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hello hello everyone, i had several questions about the connection between shamanism and imitative kung fu forms.

traditionally, was there a way for the kung fu person to embody the spirit of an animal before performing an animal form? what does it really take to perform an animal form the shamanistic way?

is seven star praying mantis considered an imitative style?

i need to know these facts because im a Christian and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.

Your Christian faith will not be effected by visualization techniques, which is what these "practises" basically are.
Don't confuse "adapting the qualites" of an animal, liek the ferocity of a tiger, to becoming that animal.
Again, unless your faith is very weak, it shouldn't be effected by visualization techniques.
Besides, all animals are God's creations.

[MightyB]

God loves wrestlers: http://www.biblestudy.org/question/wrestling-with-an-angel.html

[taai gihk yahn]

im a Christian and i need to stay away from any shamanistic practices.
I think that the "problem" arises not from any purported shamanic content per se, but in Christianity's inherently xenophobic and exclusionist stance on things (not that it is the only "faith" in the world that has these attributes); which is interesting, given the not insignificant pagan / shamanic content found within it; heck, if you examine the so-called "original" gospel writings, especially the ones that didn't make the 4th c. cut, it reads a great deal like the various Eastern concepts that were abounding in the oikoumene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene) at the same time that a certain Nazarene was fomenting rebellion...

anyway, that notwithstanding, I'd say that 99.9% of currently practiced Taoist-based CMA are pretty much devoid of the specific shamanic practices upon which they are based: unless you are going to be practicing Cloud Script or something similar, I wouldn't worry about any animistic possession;

of course, the easy answer is not to practice it at all, and there you are, out of your difficulty at once!

ah, this is why I repose in the carefree life of the non-proselytizing atheist...

[SPJ]

talking about animal symbolism or representation.

I like the knight of the dark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3eCRovzbfw

or may be green hornet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68J9TZ97JCk

:cool:

[SanHeChuan]

If you came into my school, saying you were concerned about being possessed by animal or any other kind of spirit, :eek: I would not want you in my school. I don’t need any potential schizophrenics disrupting the harmony of my kwoon. :mad:

[Taryn P.]

Shamanism involves your consciousness leaving your body and "travelling" into other realities for a specific purpose.

Embodying an animal spirit is connecting to the animal within you and the you within the animal.

Being "posessed" by something is an entirely different matter than either of these.

All of these are methods/techniques and not "religions" per se, although some religions do use them more often than others.

[Ben Gash]

Taai Gihk, I think it's important for Christians to differentiate between what is inherently Christian and what is Roman worldview. The aversion that many Christians declare for naturalistic philosophies I'm sure stems from the Roman ideas about the ways of their "barbarian" neighbours and vassals.
Anyway, to the point, no, in a respectable school their will be no shamanistic practices (there will always be the odd wannabe cult leader snake oil salesman, but then you get that with churches too).
Indeed, it is important to differentiate "spirit boxing" from authentic chinese martial arts, spirit boxing is a shamanistic practice, but it is not kung fu. Indeed, to quote Lau Kar Leung in Legendary weapons of China "your trickery and witchcraft is not the real kung fu!" Indeed, spirit boxing is the antithesis of Kung fu, as it is a supposed shortcut to fighting ability, rather than the development of skill through effort. If it hadn't been for the Boxer Rebellion, spirit boxing would be (thankfully) little known, but sadly it's infamy has somehow lent it respectability in some circles :(

[David Jamieson]

luck would have it that those circles are filled with quacks!

so, as long as they stay in their quackery circles, who cares.

:)

[Lucas]

shamanism as a whole is a HUGE topic, and a pretty interesting and entertaining one. Culturally and historically its a world wide phenomenon. Depending on the culture, the shamanistic practices will differ. The one thing that all cultures share in regards to shamanism is that a shaman is an 'mediator' or 'connection' between the physical and the spirit world. One of the most commonly associated practices via shamanism is actually the healing arts.

modernly 'shamanism' can be seen on things such as tv shows that are out there 'talking with the dead' and the like. those are modern 'shamans'.

as is pretty obvious though, actual shamanism has nothing to do with modern day martial arts practices.




Was Jesus a Shaman?

Jesus makes me think of lions... and lambs.


on this note:


Here is an interesting paper (http://www.geocities.com/bob_dorje/christianshaman.html) an individual wrote on the similarities between shamanistic ideas and practices, and those of Christians.

Just food for thought. Sometimes a lot can get lost in a mis understood label.

[David Jamieson]

Shamanism is a catch all term.

It's on one level like saying "christians" or "jews" or "buddhists" etc etc.

without regards to sect etc.

on the other hand it is also a blanket term for non-established religious practices, which itg may or may not be depending on the culture it is extant within.

Shamanism of Indonesia is not very similar to shamanism of east coast america for instance, although there is a shared aspect of anti-naturalism involved in both. As in the supernatural attributes are projected upon things which in fact are not supernatural at all but part of nature in a very real sense with attributes utterly whole and apart from how shamanism ascribes attributes of personified qualities to natural things.

anyway... lol It is a huge subject. Start a thread! :D

[Lucas]

get out of my head, shaman!

[Thomas316]

what's spirit boxing?

[Lucas]

what's spirit boxing?

a big ol sham :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Christianity, bah !
http://corky.net/dotan/log/images/mygodhasahammer.jpg

[uki]

what's spirit boxing?boxing with intention.


Shamanism is a catch all term. It's on one level like saying "christians" or "jews" or "buddhists" etc etc.or, ummm... errrr... shaolin.


well, that's all well and fine, but remember, Jesus was a Jew too.which led by example to teach both jews and gentiles alike...


Shamanism involves your consciousness leaving your body and "travelling" into other realities for a specific purpose.modern terminology would classify this phenomenom as "astral travelling" or OBE's. your definition of shamanism is but one aspect of the whole...


Embodying an animal spirit is connecting to the animal within you and the you within the animal.not so much an animal spirit, rather a particular type of energy best described with an animal.


Being "posessed" by something is an entirely different matter than either of these.this can result from leaving ones body to project astrally and another travelling spirit comes and takes it over while the body is vacant... this is one of the big issues with big pharmecutical drugs; they cause the individual mind -spirit-body connection to become detached, which allows other free roaming radicals(of negative energy) to occupy the drug users body... the nightly news is more than enough verification of the resulting outcomes of this type of possession.


All of these are methods/techniques and not "religions" per se, although some religions do use them more often than others.and one must remember that religion in itself is a control mechanism that is only used to enslave the feeble minds of the sheeple.


I don’t need any potential schizophrenics disrupting the harmony of my kwoon.LOL... you might be able to get multiple payments from one individual if you play your cards right - the potential is astonishing!!


ah, this is why I repose in the carefree life of the non-proselytizing atheist...you mean labels actually stick to people of the tao? :p


Besides, all animals are God's creations.if only everyone could see the simplicity to all the complexity...

Christianity, bah !
http://corky.net/dotan/log/images/mygodhasahammer.jpgawesome...


The Tigers are definitely shamans... @ss kicking shamans.i took this as a non-co-incidental synchronicity to the topic at hand. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Christianity, bah !

by the scaes of the Midgard Serpent!

[taai gihk yahn]

you mean labels actually stick to people of the tao? :p
hell yeah! but only the special Shamanic Tao™ ones that we make; $89.99 the 1/2 dozen!

[Ben Gash]

what's spirit boxing?
Spirit boxing is a Chinese folk magic practice where people claim to invoke the powers of certain spirits to possess them, thus making them powerful fighters and impervious to harm. This theory was empirically proved false during the boxer rebellion ;)

[uki]

Spirit boxing is a Chinese folk magic practice where people claim to invoke the powers of certain spirits to possess them, thus making them powerful fighters and impervious to harm. This theory was empirically proved false during the boxer rebellion ;)and the winky smilie at the end of your sentence gives the mis-information away... if it were not for the intention of the boxer rebellion, there would've been no boxer rebellion. :)

[Ben Gash]

What on earth are you on about??? :confused:

[uki]

What on earth are you on about???where heaven is off...

[Hebrew Hammer]

well, that's all well and fine, but remember, Jesus was a Jew too.

:p

Thanks Dave, believe me...we aren't usually the ones who forget that! :D

[jmd161]

Spirit boxing is a Chinese folk magic practice where people claim to invoke the powers of certain spirits to possess them, thus making them powerful fighters and impervious to harm. This theory was empirically proved false during the boxer rebellion ;)


This is not 100% on point... it's what most people want you to believe about Spirit Boxing. Spirit Boxing is still practiced with in some styles of CMA, most will not speak of it for obvious reasons. I've spoken on this before Hak Fu Mun has Spirit Boxing at it's advanced levels, but it's not something openly talked about. There are different methods to practicing Spirit Boxing Hak Fu Mun does it the Buddhist way.


jeff:)

[David Jamieson]

Thanks Dave, believe me...we aren't usually the ones who forget that! :D

lol. too true.

[Thomas316]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=568

the article mentions the practitioner connecting with the spirit.

[TenTigers]

I wouldn't go by that article. Most articles about drunken boxing are nonesense.
Especially wu-shu performers' versions.

[uki]

Most articles about drunken boxing are nonesense.this might have something to do with the monkey spirits involved...

Especially wu-shu performers' versions.true... drunken boxing only works with alcohol. :D

[David Jamieson]

it's step drunk, not be drunk. loose and deceptive. show weakness, be strong. etc etc.

drunken boxing is interesting, there's just so many fudge versions of it. :p

[jmd161]

drunken boxing is interesting, there's just so many fudge versions of it. :p



This is so true!


One thing for sure....When you see " REAL DEAL" Drunken Boxing, there is no misunderstanding if it's real or applicable.


jeff:)

[Ao Qin]

This is an interesting thread - I've never understood why Dragon Style / Shape is referenced that way. I'd like to learn more what the "shape" means to the Chinese people who so named it (and not the obvious meanings - e.g. the form or shape the body is positioned in).

The best imitative kungfu movie every made, IMO, is "The Thundering Mantis" - Seven Star I believe. You'll never find a copy though...although I managed to aquire one with great difficulty.:)

Cheers - AQ

[mawali]

Spirit Boxers, again, as a quais-religious group, were given a bill of goods, that, if they practiced a certain set of movements of a specific sect (quasi-religious! they woul dbe able to withstand bullets. Even today, people still believe such things especially if you add religious and other themes to the art.

In that era in Chinese history, the populace was no very literate so they tended to believe in those types of prophesies, real or imaginery! They even added Christian themes to their awakening.

[David Jamieson]

This is an interesting thread - I've never understood why Dragon Style / Shape is referenced that way. I'd like to learn more what the "shape" means to the Chinese people who so named it (and not the obvious meanings - e.g. the form or shape the body is positioned in).

The best imitative kungfu movie every made, IMO, is "The Thundering Mantis" - Seven Star I believe. You'll never find a copy though...although I managed to aquire one with great difficulty.:)

Cheers - AQ

My current training partner uses "shape" and "style" to refer to individual techniques.

wher you and I might think a system is a style, this is not the case with many chinese.

A system is a completely different concept. A style and a shape are small things.

[Ao Qin]

Thanks David,

"Lung Ying" is called dragon style, dragon shape, dragon shape / style magic hands, dragon claw / fist, even "Dragon Eagle" Style, etc (depending on the tone of course). But the "shape" thing is very intriguing to me right now. I believe it has something to do with the internal method attached to it. People have tried to explain it to me, but so far, "it hasn't hit me yet"

I've been doing the Dragon for over 20 years now, and I still don't understand what "Sam Tong", or "Lam Dah", or "Bai Jong" means either - I've got about 10 transliterations of each. I guess I'm just slow.

Cheers - kevin

[uki]

the dragon is like the snail... it twists like the tornado - spins like a hurricane. if you cannot grasp the dragon, it means you cannot fly without wings...