Finger Hyperextension! HELP!

[hellswindstaff]

I lost balance doing a double fingerstand and hyper-extended the index finger. It doesn't hurt, except when I lift heavy, and the knuckles are spaced ****her apart then before the accident. I don't have health insurance so it's kind of scary. Any one have a hyper-extended finger before? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Scott R. Brown]

Ice it for 20 mins. every 2 hours for the first 4 days. Then alternate heat and ice every two hours.

Rest is the only thing that will heal your injury, so avoid antagonizing your injury. It will likely take a year or so to heal if it is a serious injury. You have injured your tendons most likely and these do not have much blood flow to them so it will take a looooong time to heal.

Needless to say it was stupid to do finger stands. They offer no long term benefit to anything other than bragging rights and ooohs and aaahs from people who are easily impressed by unusual and useless skills!

[taai gihk yahn]

what Scott said, although the healing time can vary, and there are some treatment options beyond resting, but most that you can't do yourself really; also, if after the acute phase has passed and you notice either a) significant hypermobility of the joint or b) significant loss of range / deformity w/ loss of volitional movement, you may have seriously damaged either the extensor or flexor retinaculum, which is the series interconnections in the fingers of tendon / ligament which is rather complex; if so, you may want to go see a hand specialist, because if you do have serious injury, you want to get it treated as it won't just heal on its own;

of course, everything may be fine on its own, but i'd avoid reinjury like the plague

[SavvySavage]

Even if you had health insurance the dumb doctors would give you the same crappy advice you just got. Ice for two days and then use heat? A$$inine. You only use heat when the swelling and redness have gone down. Otherwise you'll make it worse. Ice is horrible for injuries.

Dude,
Your injury won't heal on its own as stated by the other two. It'll hurt for months and years.

What state do you live in? You need to seek out an acupuncturist who can do bone realignments. He or she will probably know about liniments to rub externally. Acupuncture will help A LITTLE but you need to find a BONESETTER. The joints have to be physically and painfully moved back into place by someone or it will never heal right. I study injuries and like learning about them. Or find a Kung Fu practioner that is also a bonestter. Very rare these days. If you can't find one of those than seek out an osteopath. NOT and orthopdedic specialist. An osteopath.

Use ice only if you don't have any dit da jow.
What state are you in? Maybe I can recommend someone

[taai gihk yahn]

Even if you had health insurance the dumb doctors would give you the same crappy advice you just got. Ice for two days and then use heat? A$$inine. You only use heat when the swelling and redness have gone down. Otherwise you'll make it worse. Ice is horrible for injuries.

Dude,
Your injury won't heal on its own as stated by the other two. It'll hurt for months and years.

What state do you live in? You need to seek out an acupuncturist who can do bone realignments. He or she will probably know about liniments to rub externally. Acupuncture will help A LITTLE but you need to find a BONESETTER. The joints have to be physically and painfully moved back into place by someone or it will never heal right. I study injuries and like learning about them. Or find a Kung Fu practioner that is also a bonestter. Very rare these days. If you can't find one of those than seek out an osteopath. NOT and orthopdedic specialist. An osteopath.

Use ice only if you don't have any dit da jow.
What state are you in? Maybe I can recommend someone
do you typically make ridiculous unqualified statements about everything, or only things you obviously have no idea about?

first, you need to work on your reading comprehension, because nowhere did I state that it would necessarily heal on its own; in fact, I spent most of my post discussing a scenario where it wouldn't - so where are you getting this from?

you should really not give out advice on this sort of thing, as your comments are all over the pace and misleading at best;

for example, considering that you haven't directly examined him, how do you know for certain it won't heal on its own?

how do you know that it needs to be "painfully" moved back into place? there are lots of non-painful ways to manually correct this sort of thing, if indicated;

why are you suggesting an osteopath instead of an orthopedist? most osteopaths are primary care providers who would have no idea what to do with that sort of thing - if you are thinking about OMT, 98% of DO's don't want to know from that; and with the hand, you really want a specialist - either an ortho hand guy, or an OT / PT who is a CHT

and why are you suggesting he seek out an unlicensed "kung fu bonesetter"? if he sees someone who is unlicensed and they make it worse, he's screwed; and he has no way of knowing how that person would have been trained; and why on earth would you have someone do a reduction without the benefit of radiographs?

and why do you say ice is terrible, but then recommend it in the absence of jow? either it's terrible or it's not; if it is, then that would preclude it, not make it a second choice; if it's ok to use, then it's not terrible, although it may not be preferable; so which is it?

and what are your qualifications to dispense advice, aside from liking injuries?

and spend a day in a doctor's shoes before calling them "dumb"; you have no idea what you are taking about, and come across as a real jerk when you say that;

[taai gihk yahn]

hellswindstaff:

having reviewed my first answer, I realized I didn't contextualize it sufficiently; so I'll do it again;

now, not having examined you directly, I can't say for sure what happened, but based on what you described, that you have a change in the alignment of the joint, you may have some actual damage in there; so, first off, your not having insurance notwithstanding, the optimal thing to do is to go have your finger examined by an orthopedist, preferably one who is a hand specialist; the reason for this is not necessarily for what they might tell you to do, but for what they will hopefully rule out, which is stuff like fractures, avulsions, tears of the ligaments, etc; if you don't have anything major, then you might be fine just resting / icing it, all the stuff mentioned above; dit da jow would also be helpful here as well;

as far as treatment options, you could find an OT or PT who is a Certified Hand Specialist (CHT), or a PT who is well-trained manually (that can be hard to determine, unfortunately); an osteopath who practices OMT could be good as well; a chiropractor could conceivably help as well, it depends; same with an acupuncturist - in general, it's as much about the practitioner as it is about the license;

as for a "bonesetter", manual reduction of fractures / dislocations is not within the scope of practice of acupuncturists, as far as I am aware - although it may be different from one state to another - you can easily check that out; and I would strongly suggest not to go to someone who is unlicensed like a "kung fu bonesetter", not that they might not be good, but as I mentioned in the post above, if they mess you up, you have no recourse; also, having you joint put back into place, so to speak, may not be what is indicated - and I would strongly suggest not having someone attempt to reduce / realign (especially forcibly) without taking films first; and as far as the reduction needing to be painful, there is no reason for that - reductions done by MDs can be done under local anesthesia, or there are manual techniques that can do it without pain, albeit more slowly;

[karateguy]

I hate to be the voice of reason, but I think a medical professional should take a look.. Call around, talk to friends.. find someone that can cut you a break and give you some good advice and treatment. I don't see this injury getting better with no treatment.

[SavvySavage]

I'll reply more thoroughly in the morning.

Tai gh,
your rational for him to see a doctor is that he'll be able to sue if anything goes awry. In many cases going to a doc is a este of time. This is especially true with orthopedic injuries. Doctors don't know how to treat sprained ankles.

Who decided that ice was the proper treatment and where is it proven that this ice strategy works? It's never worked for me

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll reply more thoroughly in the morning.

Tai gh,
your rational for him to see a doctor is that he'll be able to sue if anything goes awry. In many cases going to a doc is a este of time. This is especially true with orthopedic injuries. Doctors don't know how to treat sprained ankles.

Who decided that ice was the proper treatment and where is it proven that this ice strategy works? It's never worked for me

That is because ice doesn't work on idiots!

You have got to be one of the dumbest people I have ever read on this board!

[SavvySavage]

Since I'm so dumb please explain EXACTLy how ice helps to heal? You probably have no idea since you're just towing the party line.

After injury occurs it swells. The way the body tries to heal it after the initial system shock is by getting the old blood out(reducing the swelling) and then sending fresh blood in to send nutrients and help clean even more old blood out.

Here's where ice becomes useful...and usless at the sNe time. Ice reduces swelling which is why people say to do it but the problem is is that ice freezes the old dead blood cells there. This slows the healing process down considerably because the new blood has a harder time of getting through.

I said to use ice IF he can't find someone quickly to treat it. Sometimes you have to use what you have. If his car crashed in the woods, and injury occured, a steam of cold water is better than nothing until he can get REAL help.

Are you two able to articulate how ice and an orthopedic specialist will help this gentleman? Please be exact and desciptive as I was. This should be funny

[Scott R. Brown]

Chris is a physical therapist and i'm a nurse who has also worked at a physical therapy facility. I'll let Chris educate you more thoroughly. He does it much better than I. Suffice it to say, you do not ice so long that it does damage. 15-25 mins. every 2 hrs. for the the first 3-4 days. Do NOT apply the ice directly to the site, under most circumstances. Use a dry cloth barrier to keep from freezing the site. I use a pillow case or an old T-shirt. After 3-4 days alternating ice and heat may be of benefit. For example, heat before therapy or training then ice afterwards. Also oral anti-inflammatories are also of benefit. Have you never heard of R.I.C.E.? Rest. Ice, Compression, Elevate! I am sure Chris will be happy to provide you with so many details it will easily confound your simple mind. You have no idea what detailed is! Your post was NOT detailed in the least. Chris will make mincemeat out of your foolishness if he is so inclined!

[SavvySavage]

Scott,
you just gave the most BASIC info that i learned when I got my first black eye. I was 8 years old and what you described was exactly what my friends mom(housewife) did for me. Are you telling me that, even after all your years of training, you know as much as my friends mother who has a high school diploma. Maybe Barack will bail you out for your education cause you were ripped off.

The fact that you threw your resume at me and insulted me shows that you really have no knowledge to argue with in this situAtion. It's so sad. We were having a discussion and you hurled insults bacause you can't argue with words and knowlegde.

I went to a physical therapapist ONCE. She moved my leg around for me. I thought to myself, "self, why are you paying someone to do what you can do by yourself for free?". An orthopod specialist referred me because he didn't know what was going on. He didn't even touch the injured site or have me undress so he could view it. He looked at an x-Ray and said, "Hmm. I think there's definitely something going on there". Thanks, genious. I already knew that since it hurts like hell

[taai gihk yahn]

your rational for him to see a doctor is that he'll be able to sue if anything goes awry.
not the main one; that is one rationale, and a pretty good one, falling under the general heading of "accountability", which utimatey is there for the client / patient's "protection": if you are unlicensed, then the client has no way to verify your training and no recourse if something untoward happens; if you can be held accountable, it helps keep you on your best game

however, my PRIMARY reason to tell him to go to a doc is because if he has had significant injury of the retinaculum, it's best determined via MRI, not clinical diagnosis; and only an MD can order that test; if you actually read my post correctly, you would know that; that's the second time you have clearly misrepresented what I wrote; why do you have such trouble with basic reading comprehension?


In many cases going to a doc is a este of time. This is especially true with orthopedic injuries. Doctors don't know how to treat sprained ankles.
again, the doc is there to diagnose and, more importantly, rule out serious things like fracture, avulsion, etc.; and while it is true that most orthos don't "know" how to treat a sprained ankle, what they are trained to do and know how to do well is repair things that are more serious; similarly, if it's just a soft tissue strain / sprain, sure, the ortho won't "do" anything; but if it's more serious, he is the one, and the only one, who can do a direct repair;

you seem very down on docs to the point of making sweeping generalizations; while I agree that there are many docs I wouldn't go near, there are others who are excellent, like any profession; but you seem to have some other issues...


Who decided that ice was the proper treatment and where is it proven that this ice strategy works? It's never worked for me
ice works to decrease the initial swelling associated with trauma; it is one method of decreasing inflammation and pain; it is most useful during the initial acute phase; during sub-acute and chronic, it is of no real benefit; there are things that personally I find more effective even in acute phase, but this is one of the easiest and most accessible forms and does not require skilled intervention; of course, jow is also good, but it depends on the formula and most people don't have access to jow specific for acute trauma;

BTW, what do you personally know about how to best treat a sprained ankle, based on your direct experience doing so?


I went to a physical therapapist ONCE. She moved my leg around for me. I thought to myself, "self, why are you paying someone to do what you can do by yourself for free?".
so you went to a bad PT; of which, sad to say, there are many;TBH, I personally wouldn't let 90% of PT's out there touch me; so you need to keep looking until you find a good one;


An orthopod specialist referred me because he didn't know what was going on. He didn't even touch the injured site or have me undress so he could view it. He looked at an x-Ray and said, "Hmm. I think there's definitely something going on there". Thanks, genious. I already knew that since it hurts like hell
again, the value of what he did was not to identify what was there, but what wasn't - so he ruled out serious pathology (e.g. - a tumor, which can cause musculoskeetal symptoms) or significant trauma from the event


in general, you seem like you have an axe to grind, and to want to condemn entire professions for some negative experiences on your part; at the same time, you seem to think that every acupuncturist out there would do a better job; as such, you may want to recognize your own biased agenda before dispensing advice;

BTW, what were your qualifications to speak with any authority on the topic of injury management? aside from getting your black eye treated by your neighbor, that is...

[SavvySavage]

I never said all acupuncturists would be best for this gentleman. I stated he should find one that does bone setting.

If he ices it, sees an orthopod, goes to a PT... at best all he can hope for is pain to go away. It will hurt when the weather is damp and or cold. Can you explain why old I juries ache when a rain storm is about o hit? Can a doctor explain that? His finger pain will stop eventually but his stretched out ligaments will remain so. His hand will never be what it was.

Of course my views are biased toward what I believe just like yours are biased toward a biomedical point of view. We are merely arguing our views accept you consider yours to be the ultimate truth.

People don't have to walk around swallowing pain pills for the rest of their lives. Alternative medicine has much more to offer than conventional methods. I find it funny that Chinese medicine is considered alternative especially since your view of medicine only came around about 200 years ago. A doctor's job is to identify and not treat? That's basically what you're saying. Your system has made doctors into infants. It's true they don't do much but try to identify pathologies. Pharmacists are the real doctors. Orthopods only treat serious injuries? There are more sprained ankles than "serious" injuries so it would make sense for them to learn more about treating sprain ankles. One orthopod told my brother he needed surgery on both knees to correct his knee cap alignment. TWO surgeries! Your defense, and others, is that this was a bad doctor or bad PT. Of couse you're not a bad PT. That's such a bad defense.

I've been dealing with injuries my whole life. I severely twisted my ankle and I did the RICE thing for a long time. Guess what? It clicks, and aches, and is loose. It's chronically screwed up.

My credentials do not matter. All that matters is what I'm saying. Your credentials and Scott's didn't make your advice any wiser. A license to practice is also a license to give out bad advice and have trusting good people believe you.

How would I treat a sprain ankle? I would use a lancet to bleed thr swollen areas to allow fresh blood flow. Then I would massage it to get even more swelling down unlessnit is severely swollen. In that case I'd apply cooling herbs and have them come back the next day. After more massage i'd execute a bone set which is very painless in the ankle region. Then I'd show exercises for rehab.

I'm not trying to be hostile here. I'm saying that short of surgery going to a specialist won't correct his finger hyperextension.

I typed all this from my phone while at work. It wasn't easy

[SavvySavage]

Oh yeah forgot to mention this. I have treated sprain ankles as well as other injuries using the above methods. Those methods are much faster than having a patient see 20 doctors who all need a referral. I've been treating a lot of shoulder issues lately.

[hellswindstaff]

I was actually hoping to get to a licensed TCM doctor but making sure that I get an MRI instead of a clinical diagnosis is a definite will do.


p.s.- Why does everyone argue so much on this forum? Jeez.

[SavvySavage]

We argue because there's too many liberals around! Just kidding...sorta.


We were discussing different points of view. Of course find someone licensed. I study acupuncture and I know that, by itself, can only do a little for you. Try to find someone with some bodywork skills as well.

[Lucas]

we argue because we cant beat the living snot out of each other, so we have to bicker with text ;)

[hellswindstaff]

I was thinking along the lines of a Tuina practitioner.

[taai gihk yahn]

I guess that you really want to get into it; ok, fine;

first off, let's start with the last part of your most recent post:

I'm not trying to be hostile here .
really?!? well, that's an interesting thing to write, considering the very first thing you posted on this thread:

Even if you had health insurance the dumb doctors would give you the same crappy advice you just got. Ice for two days and then use heat? A$$inine.
oh no, no hostility there at all (:rolleyes:); BTW, that's a heck of a way to initiate a discourse on a clinical matter; and you wonder why you have engendered a generally negative response!

now, let's look at this next brilliant statement:

My credentials do not matter.
oh, indeed? I think it matters considerably; first off, by your answer, it's clear that you have none, and you obviously have some insecurity about that, since you can't just come out and say it; conversely, when Scott gave you our credentials, you took it as some sort of boast, as opposed to simply statement of fact in order to establish the context out of which we were speaking (and you may notice that it was not the first thing either of us mentioned);


All that matters is what I'm saying.
yes, and what exactly are you saying? well, here's one statement worth examining:

Your injury won't heal on its own as stated by the other two. It'll hurt for months and years.
first off, how do you know any of this? you haven't examined him, you have no idea whether or not his injury will heal on its own or not; you have no idea if it will hurt for months and years - you just don't know and there is no way to know without having seen him and treated him; if you had a professional practice of any sort, you would know this; but you don't and therefore talk out of your asz with the assurance that can only come from an amateur;
here's another:

The joints have to be physically and painfully moved back into place by someone or it will never heal right.
oh, really? again, how do you know this for certain? and what's more, why are you so sure that the maneuver has to be a painful one?

anyway, moving on:


I never said all acupuncturists would be best for this gentleman. I stated he should find one that does bone setting.
which may not be legal under an acupuncturist's scope of practice act in a given state, BTW, if it involves mobilization of a joint


If he ices it, sees an orthopod, goes to a PT... at best all he can hope for is pain to go away. It will hurt when the weather is damp and or cold.
again, you don't know that for certain; it would depend a lot on what the PT does;


Can you explain why old I juries ache when a rain storm is about o hit?
yes; do you actually want me to?!?


Can a doctor explain that?
I don't know; let's find one and ask him / her;


His finger pain will stop eventually but his stretched out ligaments will remain so. His hand will never be what it was.
first off, ligaments that are torn may or may not repair, it depends on the severity; and if they are strained, they can restore their original length / tension on their own, but it depends on the degree, location, etc. of the injury; but other structures will also come into play to compensate, and quite frankly his hand could be just fine functionally; but again, you don't know that - it may be fine, it may not be;


Of course my views are biased toward what I believe just like yours are biased toward a biomedical point of view. We are merely arguing our views accept you consider yours to be the ultimate truth.
lol; nice try to make it all just a matter of opinion; first, you have NO idea what my actual views are, because I have not expressed them here - you just jump to conclusions and make assumptions because it suits your contrarian perspective; second, it's not a question of truth, it's a question of efficacy, reliability and reproducibility, which both systems have to varying degrees and under different contexts: TCM, by its nature, is metaphorical (e.g. - with the organs, it describes small and large interactive patterns that it ascribes to different viscera, but not the actual organs or what they do from a biophysiological standpoint) whereas biomedical model looks at what actually goes on; what they have in common is that both are empirical, but TCM was limited by the available technology of the times, so it focused on what it could describe, and did so in as comprehensive manner as was possible; but because it relies so heavily on the operator's personal skill level, it is a highly subjective practice (which is fine), as opposed to biomedical, which is relatively objective (e.g. - two TCM practitioners will read the pulse very differently and still treat effectively, where as 100 different MD's can draw blood and test it and get the same results; and each approach has its strengths and weaknesses, BTW); so don't go and paint me as some sort of biomedical absolutist because it suits your contrarian agenda

[taai gihk yahn]

People don't have to walk around swallowing pain pills for the rest of their lives.
no they don't; nor should they have to; why would anyone recommend this?


Alternative medicine has much more to offer than conventional methods.
you have NO idea what you are talking about; really, you just sound drunk now;


I find it funny that Chinese medicine is considered alternative especially since your view of medicine only came around about 200 years ago.
good Lord, you spew the typical "alternative" claptrap like a robot! first off, TCM is "alternative", even though it has been around longer than so-called "western" medicine, because from the perspective of so-called "western" medicine, it is an import and not practiced in the main; that's it; and again, as far as "my" view of medicine, you have no idea what "my" view actually is;


A doctor's job is to identify and not treat? That's basically what you're saying.
don't try to be reductive; in some cases, yes, in other cases, no; it depends;


Your system has made doctors into infants. It's true they don't do much but try to identify pathologies.
you obviously know absolutely nothing about the "system" and doctors being infants; while some certainly do not have all that much on their plate (e.g. - physiatrists), others have to function at a level of complexity that you would have no ability to understand at all (e.g. - OBGYN)


Pharmacists are the real doctors.
now you're drunk again, aren't you?


Orthopods only treat serious injuries? There are more sprained ankles than "serious" injuries so it would make sense for them to learn more about treating sprain ankles.
not really - the orthopods should be doing one thing: surgery; IMPO, they shouldn't even really be seeing people w/sprained ankles - that should be a "go directly to a PT" sort of thing; orthopods should be putting hardware into people who have been in debilitating accidents, that sort of thing


One orthopod told my brother he needed surgery on both knees to correct his knee cap alignment. TWO surgeries!
it would depend on why his knee caps were out of alignment, what his symptoms were and what conservative treatment had been tried; as a general rule though, this seems to be a case of "if your tool in life is a hammer, everywhere you go you see nails"; which is why I am not a big fan of having orthos deal with things that they are not trained to deal with; again, they are good at ruling out and surgically repairing things that would not respond to conservative treatment, but they are not the person I would choose to deal with things that are not the result of direct trauma;
and BTW, why didn't you fix your brother yourself?


Your defense, and others, is that this was a bad doctor or bad PT. Of couse you're not a bad PT. That's such a bad defense.
it's not a defense, and don't try to cast it as such; it's a statement of fact: there are good and bad docs / PT's; whether you think I am good or not is irrelevant, and frankly you have no way of knowing that one way or the other, nor am I trying to convince you of it; but what I do know for a fact is that the level of post-grad training I've had in manual medicine is far in excess of most other PT's, and that the basis of my practice has been largely treatment of complex "failure" patients who had been through the standard PT mill without getting the results that they wanted (the worst part of this was the times that I'd treat someone once and get their full range back or make their pain go away completely after they had gone through months of the usual rigamaroll with no results at all - they would get angry that they had wasted so much time and sometimes direct it at me, lo!)


I've been dealing with injuries my whole life. I severely twisted my ankle and I did the RICE thing for a long time. Guess what? It clicks, and aches, and is loose. It's chronically screwed up.
I don't care about your personal medical history, I was referring to what experience you have had in treating others; and why can't you fix it, with all of your superior techniques and skills?


Your credentials and Scott's didn't make your advice any wiser.
<sigh> again, that is not the point of / reason for credentials: credentials are to a) prove you have had formal training so that the client has a reasonable understanding of your background; b) makes you accountable, so that if you at negligently, the client has recourse;
wisdom comes with experience, the kind you get treating thousands of people over the course of a professional practice; know what I mean?


A license to practice is also a license to give out bad advice and have trusting good people believe you.
good Lord, you are a bitter and cynical fu(k! you just can't help but cast things in an adversarial light, can you? you portray licensed health care practitioners as if they were a bunch of predatory opportunists just waiting to lead someone down the path to disaster; and despite what you think, that's not what a license gives you "permission" to do;


How would I treat a sprain ankle? I would use a lancet to bleed thr swollen areas to allow fresh blood flow. Then I would massage it to get even more swelling down unlessnit is severely swollen. In that case I'd apply cooling herbs and have them come back the next day. After more massage i'd execute a bone set which is very painless in the ankle region. Then I'd show exercises for rehab.
I see; not bad, although somewhat limited in scope (for example, rebalancing respiratory diaphragm and quadratus lumborum and then realignment of occulogyrocephaic reflex are very important to do if you want to avoid a predisposition for re-injury; but that's neither here nor there); so, that said, when was the last time you did this? how often do you do it? what sort of patients come to you for this? and when you do it, do you practice aseptic technique w/sterile sharps?


I'm saying that short of surgery going to a specialist won't correct his finger hyperextension.
I'm saying that he should get his finger examined thoroughly to make sure that it doesn't need surgical intervention; after that, there are lots of ways to treat, and yes, acupunture / bonesetting could be a viable option;


I typed all this from my phone while at work. It wasn't easy
neither was reading it and trying not to feel nauseated by the breadth and depth of your stupidity;

[SavvySavage]

Original poster,

I am a tui na practicioner. The final layer of tui na bodywork is the realigning of bones that were subluxated(never said I fixed broken bones which surgeons do). I am talking from my personal experience of actually touching people and doing active manipulation on them. You're very wise in your knowledge of what your body needs.


Tai g,

Your post contained so many words but the content is lacking. I see now why Scott wanted you to do this. You're good at bashing. You shouldtry for the republican vice presidency.

It's actually not hard to straighten a twisted ankle. Obviously your clinical experience has never allowed you to move beyond simple stretching/manipulation of old people who need to pay you because they can't do it themselves. You also probably apply hot and cold packs, estim, and ultrasound. I bet patients come back to you multiple times in a week for weeks and months. Why do they keep coming back to you?
1. The doctor writes a referral for those amounts if visits cause he hopes you can stop them from coming back to him and complaining.

2. YOU AREN'T ACTUALLY FIXING ANYONE or they wouldn't have to visit you so often. You get rich from a doctor's referral, cause he can't fix them, but then you never fix anyone either. Your ripping people off with no promise of getting better. All you actually offer is temporary pain relief. The only reason your profession exists is because doctors couldn't, and still can't, treat low back pain. This put a hole in their superiority and you were created to keep them looking good. Now they can say,"it's the physical therapist's fault. I just diagnose". I've read the history of modern medicine. You should too.

My friend's physical therapist had him doing sit ups. Lol! I'm shocked that you can charge for this.

Last but not least: there are tons of acupuncture styles out there besides TCM. TCM is communist China's version of acupuncture developed in the 1950's.



I have the inside scoop because my girlfriend is a physical therapist's assistant.

Now you're going to turn around and say that she probaly works for a bad physical therapist. Ha.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott,
you just gave the most BASIC info that i learned when I got my first black eye. I was 8 years old and what you described was exactly what my friends mom(housewife) did for me. Are you telling me that, even after all your years of training, you know as much as my friends mother who has a high school diploma. Maybe Barack will bail you out for your education cause you were ripped off.

No you dolt, I am telling you that your "friend's mom" knows what physical therapists, athletic trainers, and Doctors know! THEY, in general terms, educated her, or rather she learned from them! That is because it is now common knowledge that Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation work.


The fact that you threw your resume at me and insulted me shows that you really have no knowledge to argue with in this situAtion. It's so sad. We were having a discussion and you hurled insults bacause you can't argue with words and knowlegde.

No you dolt, neither can you reason. You took two premises unrelated to your conclusion to support your incorrect conclusion. THAT demonstrates you don't know how to reason and therefore it is reasonable to infer you are an idiot!

My conclusion you are an idiot is based upon your uninformed conclusions which you founded upon erroneous premises.

Stating a resume is NOT the same thing as "throwing it at you", it is done to qualify my knowledge base in order to give support to my authority. That is what credentials are for. Does that automatically mean that conclusions are valid NO, but it is one of the supporting premises for the conclusion stated.


I went to a physical therapapist ONCE. She moved my leg around for me. I thought to myself, "self, why are you paying someone to do what you can do by yourself for free?". An orthopod specialist referred me because he didn't know what was going on. He didn't even touch the injured site or have me undress so he could view it. He looked at an x-Ray and said, "Hmm. I think there's definitely something going on there". Thanks, genious. I already knew that since it hurts like hell

Wow, you really ARE an idiot! A few experiences you didn't understand and interpreted as being a BAD experiences, and you throw the baby out with the bath water! That shows real intelligence!

Just because you didn't like the way you are treated does not mean they didn't know what they were doing.

Did it ever occur to you that it was YOU who didn't understand what was going on? Since you are the paying customer, if you don't understand what your specialists are saying or doing, how about ask them?

With your superhuman reasoning ability it would seem you could have concluded that either there was nothing they could do, or they were incompetent. If I used your reasoning I could concluded that because you are an idiot, everyone you associate with is an idiot!


If he ices it, sees an orthopod, goes to a PT... at best all he can hope for is pain to go away. It will hurt when the weather is damp and or cold. Can you explain why old I juries ache when a rain storm is about o hit? Can a doctor explain that? His finger pain will stop eventually but his stretched out ligaments will remain so. His hand will never be what it was.

My God, do you take stupid pills?

You don't know if any of that will occur, because you don't know the extent of the injury. Not all injuries heal completely, however NO TREATMENT often means the residual effects will be worse than if treatment occurred.

The body is designed to heal itself and protect itself from greater dysfunction.

Training brings with it risks. If a person doesn't want to risk permanent discomfort training is NOT for them!

The pain and discomfort when a rain storm hits may be due to a number of factors. The joints are contained within sacs of fluid. The the fluid is sometimes sensitive to changes in air pressure, the air pressure that occurs when a rain storm occurs. This change in air pressure contributes to weather-change related discomfort in the joints.

Cold also causes stiffness in the body tissues which is exacerbated by inactivity. People tend towards greater inactivity on cold days. Think of the stiffness you feel in your body and old injuries when you arise in the morning. Your body begins to contract, almost immediately, with any period of inactivity. So, less activity combined with cold contributes to greater discomfort on cold days.

Injured tissues have a tendency to be more stiff than the body's healthier tissues, often due to adhesions, therefore the injured tissues will require a longer warming up period when when one begins performing energetic movements, especially on cold days.

There you go Einstein, another statement by you demonstrated to be foolishness!


People don't have to walk around swallowing pain pills for the rest of their lives. Alternative medicine has much more to offer than conventional methods.

Yeah that is why there is a much greater survival rate from injuries and illnesses today than in ancient China!:rolleyes:

No one suggested going around taking pills for the rest of their life! However, pills provide many beneficial effects for most people! This has contributed to a greater overall survival rate from illnesses and injuries than in the past!


It's true they [Doctors] don't do much but try to identify pathologies.

Uhhhh.....yes they do! They attempt to find better and better methods of treating pathologies. And they succeed in doing so.


There are more sprained ankles than "serious" injuries so it would make sense for them to learn more about treating sprain ankles. One orthopod told my brother he needed surgery on both knees to correct his knee cap alignment. TWO surgeries!

More stupid pills???

There IS a treatment for sprained ankles you dolt! Just because you don't know what you are talking about and don't understand the benefits or reasons for the treatments does not mean they are ineffective. It means you are an idiot!


I've been dealing with injuries my whole life. I severely twisted my ankle and I did the RICE thing for a long time. Guess what? It clicks, and aches, and is loose. It's chronically screwed up.

And how bad would it be if you hadn't done any treatment at all Einstien? Your ankle clicks and aches because of the seriousness of your injury you dolt, NOT because of the ineffectiveness of the treatment.

If you have only sprained your ankle once, you are a wimp! I have sprained my right ankle at least 5 times. The first injury was the most serious and took a year and a half to heal. I couldn't walk on it properly for almost 6 months. I also did not treat it at all. I have had other injuries to it that kept me off my feet for days. I treated it properly in those situations and I benefited from the proper treatment.

So, using your super-human reasoning, I have more experience in treating sprained ankles that you do by at least 5 times. That makes me more of an expert than you! I say RICE works. It reduces the overall damage from acute injury and allows for quicker healing. And I didn't even have to take anti-inflammatories for the rest of my life either!

Does my ankle click and ache, yes of course it does, I injured it many many times. There are consequences to training hard. If you, or anyone else, doesn't want to get injuries, don't get out of bed in the morning and what ever you do, don't exercise or do martial arts training!


My credentials do not matter. All that matters is what I'm saying. Your credentials and Scott's didn't make your advice any wiser. A license to practice is also a license to give out bad advice and have trusting good people believe you.

Credentials do matter! They form a rational support for your conclusions. I will agree that credentials alone are not sufficient rational support for any conclusion however, when you need heart surgery, will you go to some street quack who "says" he knows what he is doing, or to an accredited and experienced physician with experience in treating your condition?

Which one is the reasonable path?


How would I treat a sprain ankle? I would use a lancet to bleed thr swollen areas to allow fresh blood flow. Then I would massage it to get even more swelling down unlessnit is severely swollen. In that case I'd apply cooling herbs and have them come back the next day. After more massage i'd execute a bone set which is very painless in the ankle region. Then I'd show exercises for rehab.

Please provide any VALID research that demonstrates this method is more effective than any other method, and specifically RICE, for the acute phase of injury.

Just how will lancing a wound relieve the interstitial swelling? Swelling occurs due to the release of histamine from the injured cells. Much of the swelling is due to increased blood flow to the area, but much of it is due to increased interstitial fluid volume cause by the release of histamine. How will your lancing relieve this?

Massage in the acute phase of treatment will INCREASE inflammation (swelling) Einstein!


I'm not trying to be hostile here. I'm saying that short of surgery going to a specialist won't correct his finger hyperextension.

Not being hostile does not mean you know what you are talking about! You are woefully ignorant about this topic.


I typed all this from my phone while at work. It wasn't easy

You did a good job posting from your phone. I did the same thing for my previous post. It is quite challenging isn't it!

[Scott R. Brown]

p.s.- Why does everyone argue so much on this forum? Jeez.

Argument is the method whereby truth is arrived through reason. Without argument, there would be no means of determining the correctness of any view at all.

It is a modern fantasy that we must all get along! It is impossible and will never happen. it is NOT the way of Tao as demonstrated by the symbol Yin-Yang!

It is the ignorance of the "Hippy" generation that has created the view that this will ever happen. To the "Hippy" generation getting along means agreeing with them!

Disagreement and conflict is a part of life. It is best to understand and accept this and work with it rather than against it. This is applying wu-wei to life!

[taai gihk yahn]

Your post contained so many words but the content is lacking.
that's a nice way to duck having to address the points I made specifically so that you could engage on another self-righteous rant, below


I see now why Scott wanted you to do this. You're good at bashing.
if you wouldn't act like such a prig, there would be no reason to do so;


You shouldtry for the republican vice presidency.
you should try employing intelligent thought when you write


It's actually not hard to straighten a twisted ankle.
I agree; the tricky part is rebalancing the rest of the system around the correction, especially if it is chronic; what can be real fun is if you are "peeling" away layers of multiple, contradictory force vectors in the tissues, figuring out which ones you need to correct directly, which to correct indirectly so that the system doesn't go into decompensation - and again, you have to rebalance the eyes, otherwise the chronic lesions come back functionally - you do know how to rebalance the eyes, don't you?


Obviously your clinical experience has never allowed you to move beyond simple stretching/manipulation of old people who need to pay you because they can't do it themselves.
obviously your prejudice has never allowed you to move past the rigid ideas that you have cemented into your mind; obviously you have no idea about how I treat either


You also probably apply hot and cold packs, estim, and ultrasound.
nope; never used them; so much for your assumptions


I bet patients come back to you multiple times in a week for weeks and months.
you would loose that bet


Why do they keep coming back to you?
when they do come back, it's because after they have been in pain for months or years and after a few sessions they are better, they realize what i do works; and then they only come back if they reinjure themselves, or for a seasonal tune-up; and the really good ones know to come before they flair-up but know that if they don't get treatment they will, because I train people to self-monitor and diagnose based on things other than their symptoms


1. The doctor writes a referral for those amounts if visits cause he hopes you can stop them from coming back to him and complaining.
my patients go back to their docs and tell them that they have gotten better; and in NYS we don't need a script, we have direct access


2. YOU AREN'T ACTUALLY FIXING ANYONE or they wouldn't have to visit you so often.
they don't; why aren't you paying attention to what I write?


You get rich from a doctor's referral, cause he can't fix them, but then you never fix anyone either.
I guess all those thousands of people over the last 15 years who have walked out symptom free should be told that


Your ripping people off with no promise of getting better. All you actually offer is temporary pain relief.
if by temporary you mean on the order of months to years to decades, ok;


The only reason your profession exists is because doctors couldn't, and still can't, treat low back pain.
you obviously know nothing about the history of the PT profession, where it came from and what it was actually created for;


This put a hole in their superiority and you were created to keep them looking good. Now they can say,"it's the physical therapist's fault. I just diagnose". I've read the history of modern medicine. You should too.
I don't know what history you are talking about, but you should really lay off the sauce old boy, its impairing your judgement

anyway, what you are describing above, I agree, is what happens in a large number of PT settings, and I am the first to be on line to say that the sort of treatment you describe above is a travesty, and anyone who practices that way ought to be ashamed of themselves
for me, my typical course of treatment is 1-3 times total for acute injury; chronic can be longer, it depends on the issue (e.g. - chronic LBP can be 3 -5 if it's straight forward; fibromyalgia is a whole other ball game, that is long-term, although I can usually tell within the first session if I am going to get anywhere; tinnitus can vary significantly; feet are pretty easy; visceral stuff can be difficult;);


My friend's physical therapist had him doing sit ups. Lol! I'm shocked that you can charge for this.
me too - it's so stupid; personally, I do very little standard ther ex - my practice is predicated on the principle that anything that you can do at home on your own should not be done in my office; a lot of my stuff is osteopathically derived and is restriction specific, but also I do a fair amount of qigong stuff as well, which is less precise, but good for reintegration


Last but not least: there are tons of acupuncture styles out there besides TCM. TCM is communist China's version of acupuncture developed in the 1950's.
yeah, I know - my tuina / dian xue / qigong teacher practices a "family style" that pre-dates TCM and works very differently in a lot of ways (his teacher was called "One Needle Wong" and liked to thread multiple points);


I have the inside scoop because my girlfriend is a physical therapist's assistant.
Now you're going to turn around and say that she probaly works for a bad physical therapist. Ha.
probably; or at least a standard run-of-the-mill type; I don't know, I don't work that way

[SavvySavage]

You talk about how awesome you are and bash me. I talk about how awesome I am and bash you. That about sums up our arguments.

I'm ready to stop now. My advice still stands as will yours. It's up to him how he wants to seek treatment whether your ego or mine gets gratified(hopefully mine does!).

It's also becoming a pain in the butt typing these long posts from my phone.

[taai gihk yahn]

You talk about how awesome you are and bash me. I talk about how awesome I am and bash you
I do not "bash" you, as you put it - I address the specific points you raise, one by one, and refute them; I also ask you specific questions that you don't answer; you, OTOH, bared on here with your derisive comments, have weighed invective against both my profession and me personally, and have, in general, contributed nothing to this thread other than demonstrating how insecure you are; not that I care per se, but at least get your facts straight;


That about sums up our arguments.
no, it doesn't - you just wish it did, because then you can justify avoiding answering my questions or dealing with the fact that EVERY assumption you have made about how I practice is wrong and that you have no leg to stand on


I'm ready to stop now.
also known as "coping out because I don't have a leg to stand on"


My advice still stands as will yours. It's up to him how he wants to seek treatment whether your ego or mine gets gratified(hopefully mine does!).
personally, I couldn't care less what he does, it has no impact on my life, my ego, etc.; you, OTOH, seem to have a significant investment in that


It's also becoming a pain in the butt typing these long posts from my phone.
I think I just heard a lame duck quacking somewhere...

you're pathetic - you jump onto the thread with your rude statements and holier-than-thou attitude, and when you get called on the specific merits of each and every thing you say, you give lame excuses and duck out; you can frame it anyway you want, but ultimately it's up to you to look at yourself honestly and realize this aspect about yourself (hopefully before you have kids)...

good luck with all that

[SavvySavage]

You again? Jeez. Will you ever stop? Obviously I've hit a nerve because your posts get more derogatory. Keep firing away(probably blanks).

The tone of your posts are negative and insecure(you used that word to describe me but you were really talking about yourself).

I don't need to answer your questions unless the supreme court rules that I must on an online forum(you won't understand this referrence so please don't try).
I didn't level anything against your profession. I told the truth. According to you you're not an "ordinary" PT. That may be true but I have only my experiences to judge from just like you. Your profession doesn't help people much. I'm sorry(not really) this is a sensitive issue for you. You should practice some of that qi gong you study before replying.

I do find it entertaining that you systematically break down my posts, call them rants, even though your ranting is in smaller paragraphs. In the last few days you've probably spent more time interacting with me than with your weaner. You need to reverse the process. Focus more on your weanie instead of your keyboard.

We're coming from totally different ideologies(yours a little more like following the sheep than mine). I hope you're happy stealing copayments from grandma. It baffles me that insurance covers PT.

[hellswindstaff]

To whoever made the gauche comment which pompously implied that I, a Reverend and Taoist, am somehow naive to Taoist concepts, perhaps you should open a few Taoist canons along with your eyes because as Lao Tzu said, in Chapter 56 of the most famous of all Taoist literature:

"Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
Black the passages,
Shut the doors,
Let all sharpness be blunted,
All tangles untied,
All glare tempered.
All dust smoothed.
This is called the mysterious leveling.
He who has achieved it cannot either be drawn into friendship or repelled,
Cannot be benefited, cannot be harmed,
Cannot either be raised or humbled,
And for that very reason is highest of all creatures under heaven."

[Scott R. Brown]

We're coming from totally different ideologies(yours a little more like following the sheep than mine).

....and yours a little more like your head up your A$$!

All you have done is make anecdotal comments about experiences you have had or comments your girl friend has made to you. None of which supersedes scientific evidence, Einstein!

Haven't you figured out that YOU are the problem in all your experiences. Either you do not know how to choose a competent medical provider, or YOU turn everything into a problem because YOU are a jerk!

If it is that OBVIOUS to those of us who only have a cursory experience of you, how can you, with all your superior genius, NOT perceive it?

[Scott R. Brown]

To whoever made the gauche comment which pompously implied that I, a Reverend and Taoist, am somehow naive to Taoist concepts, perhaps you should open a few Taoist canons along with your eyes because as Lao Tzu said, in Chapter 56 of the most famous of all Taoist literature:

"Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
Black the passages,
Shut the doors,
Let all sharpness be blunted,
All tangles untied,
All glare tempered.
All dust smoothed.
This is called the mysterious leveling.
He who has achieved it cannot either be drawn into friendship or repelled,
Cannot be benefited, cannot be harmed,
Cannot either be raised or humbled,
And for that very reason is highest of all creatures under heaven."

Hmmm...it is interesting how you took a generic statement concerning Tao and turned it into a personal insult! Not to mention you apparently don't understand that conflict IS the Way of Tao! If you did, you wouldn't be too worried about others arguing, since this is the natural way of things!:rolleyes:

Way to go on that Taoist thing you got there, not to mention that Reverend thingy too!:eek:

I hope you are joking in your comment, because if you aren't, you are a woefully poor Reverend and Taoist!:(

But I am always open to being educated more completely. So, please start by educating us all, or at least me, on just what this passage means, because I don't think you understand it very well.

....and while you are at it, please explain how Lao Tzu can write "Those who know do not speak; Those who speak do not know." and then presume to write an entire treatise on Tao!

For, if what he says is true, then he doesn't know a thing about Tao. This is demonstrated by the fact he has said something about Tao. Since he said something about Tao, according to his passage he clearly doesn't know anything about Tao. If he doesn't know anything about Tao, then we cannot be certain whether his statement is accurate or not, and thus you should not be using the phrase to educate others in their errors concerning their understanding of Tao!

....and then when you are done explaining your Reverend and DEEP understanding on this, please explain to us all how Chuang Tzu could do the same thing......

....and Lin Chi.....

....and etc. etc. etc.......

While I am clearly being snide, I am also VERY serious about this and would like to read your views on this conundrum!

[SavvySavage]

Hellswindstaff,
pay no attention to Scott. He is obviously the woman in the relationship letting Tai do his dirty work and all. Please keep me updated with the condtion of your injury as it interests me a lot.

Scott,
let Tai fight your battles for you like before. He is more articulate than you although he likes to use big words to try and sound smart. You don't even try to sound intelligent. Hellswindstaff has a major injury which is beyond your nurse knowledge. Put ice on your nuts before you get with your wife next and see how well you perform. That should be sufficient to prove my point about ice being not so good. I'm being totally serious about the ice on your nuts.

My neighbor knows as much as you do in terms of treating injuries. What do you recommend for an upset stomach? Let me guess. Soda, gingerale(which doesn't contain ginger), carbonated water. I didn't have to go to nursing school to learn that basic treatment.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hellswindstaff,
pay no attention to Scott. He is obviously the woman in the relationship letting Tai do his dirty work and all. Please keep me updated with the condtion of your injury as it interests me a lot.

Scott,
let Tai fight your battles for you like before. He is more articulate than you although he likes to use big words to try and sound smart. You don't even try to sound intelligent. Hellswindstaff has a major injury which is beyond your nurse knowledge. Put ice on your nuts before you get with your wife next and see how well you perform. That should be sufficient to prove my point about ice being not so good. I'm being totally serious about the ice on your nuts.

My neighbor knows as much as you do in terms of treating injuries. What do you recommend for an upset stomach? Let me guess. Soda, gingerale(which doesn't contain ginger), carbonated water. I didn't have to go to nursing school to learn that basic treatment.

OOOOOOOOO! Your insults sting like a butterfly...and float like a bee!

I think you have just become the STUPIDEST person, not just on this BB, but of all people I have ever known!

Hellswind, asked for a simple, inexpensive treatment you dolt.....NOT inane comments from a simpleton like you. I, on the other hand, gave him a simple, inexpensive treatment that works for everyone, including Pro athletes! Have you ever seen what they do for Pro athletes when they get injured during a game, Einstein? Hmmmmmm........It wouldn't be ICE would it???? Hmmmmmmmm ......DUH!!!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

My neighbor knows as much as you do in terms of treating injuries. What do you recommend for an upset stomach? Let me guess. Soda, gingerale(which doesn't contain ginger), carbonated water. I didn't have to go to nursing school to learn that basic treatment.

Oh yeah, and my neighbor is a Doctor and he knows more than your neighbor, and your friend's mom, and your girl friend, and you and everyone else you know in the universe put together, and he says put ice on it!!!:rolleyes:

Look dummy, just because you are the smartest dolt you know doesn't mean you aren't still a dolt! You will never have the reasoning ability of anyone with a real brain, so stop trying to sound like you know what you are talking about, because you are only making yourself look like the dolt you are!

[No_Know]

One called hellswindstaff,

I thought there might be little swelling because of the breathing conditioning of your hand…lack of hard dynamic tension would be why it is as functional as is (was) and lack of hurt.

I presume you merely lowered your legs and stood up after meaning you were able to keep the other hand in a support position until you got-up.

Pointing and curling the index finger…holding the middle and index finger bones together while fluttering the fingers (to bring the knuckles together. And massaging the palm near the thumb.

Tighten the muscles outside of the area of affect to react to the edges of the area affected Slowly reducing the area of affect by normalizing from the edges in. Also rubbing the unaffected edges would bring blood to clear swelling from internal bleeding one might think.

Also massaging the palm to shorten the muscles on that side for tightening or pulling the index finger forward since it got stretched back (and side).

I get the impression that you might have moved your hand to catch your balance. Then you corrected. Then you came-down and your finger bent back and inside I might think that your first move, the finger stuck because of the weight and friction—it got stuck. One way I see is your finger stayed put but your hand crept over, putting your finger behind your knuckles. This way prys your index finger nucklefrom the middle finger knuckle. Weakness when lifting might be because the fingers act as support and when lifting it’s squeezing or moving your fingers forward. To address this move the finger forward. Moving it forward might tighten the back of the handand shorten the front. It’s loose. Use it and like in class when a person stretches or works out they get tight the next day this gets tight after you work it and stop the work.

You have to be strong to not hurt. Your hand and arm is developed that this is in a range of durability. I think three months of weekly working with it will show benefit your hand is flexible which is why it does other than hurt it was pulled apart not ripped as would have happened if there was more dynamic tension (in the hand (not just (if at all) the finger)) in your practice.

Use the index finger of the other hand between your ring finger and middle finger, resting between the knuckles. Squeeze behind the knuckles pressing the hand bones for those fingers. Flutter your index finger and ring finger as if to make finger legs and walk. The more you squeeze the harder it is for them to move somewhat. I would hope this tightens the rope that binds the fingers close. The activity on the ropes (muscles that are loose activates them—calls them to service—gives them a reason to function instead of die loose. And when you break from activity they might shrink. Hope fully you can have them tighten to standard then no more squeezing but all finger activity to let things pull in a balanced usual function way.

Depending on how you came down (supported by the backs of the other fingers you rolled it over to the back of your hand) Your underside forearm might be strained.


No_Know

[taai gihk yahn]

You again? Jeez. Will you ever stop?
me? I could say the same about you! in fact, in your previous post you stated:

I'm ready to stop now.
and yet you continue to post despite having said this; at the same time, I haven't said it (because I have no intention of doing so), but you seem to think that I'm the one who should, not you; do you understand the inconsistency here?


Obviously I've hit a nerve because your posts get more derogatory.
first, let me remind you, that the initial derogatory post came from you! remember this lovely introduction?

Even if you had health insurance the dumb doctors would give you the same crappy advice you just got. Ice for two days and then use heat? A$$inine.
and you have maintained that tone consistently with each subsequent post; and yet you still can't seem to understand the reason for my addressing you in the exact same tone that you addressed me and Scott (who, BTW, doesn't need me to answer for him - he is quite capable of managing you without me)


The tone of your posts are negative and insecure(you used that word to describe me but you were really talking about yourself).
no, I was talking about you - you really do need to consider some sort of remedial reading instruction if you think I wasn't; and you are insecure, and here's why: from your initial aggressive post to your statement about how it doesn't matter what your credentials are to your unwillingness / inability to answer the questions I asked you; all these are indicators of your being uncomfortable with interacting in an appropriate, professional manner when discussing a clinical issue - I mean, there were a dozen different ways of expressing your disagreement that would have engendered a much more civil response and ultimately more productive discourse than how you chose to present yourself; and it's not about me and TCM folk: I have had and continue to have very productive discussions with TCM professionals on this forum (Dale Dugas, Herb Ox, 'hommedieu, Xiao Meng to name a few) - do we always agree? no; have any of them expressed their reservation about PT; yes; do they conduct themselves in a manner infinitely more appropriate than you do? absolutely; do any of them not answer questions or feel credentials are unimportant? nope; do you see where I am going with this? doubtful...

and speaking of ducking questions:

I don't need to answer your questions unless the supreme court rules that I must on an online forum(you won't understand this referrence so please don't try).
wow, that's clever, yeah, ok :rolleyes:
try to follow: no, you don't have to answer any of my questions; but you jumped in with your bit about how much more sophisticated and integrated your approach to treatment is when you described what you do for ankles; which was in response to my asking you about it - so we do know that you are in fact capable and willing to answer my questions! the problem is, when I asked you some follow-up ones about how you integrate things like diaphragm and ocular function after you have resolved the local issue in the foot, you got all quiet, almost as if you didn't know how to respond to that question; which I find odd, considering how integrated and holistic and incomparably superior you think that your approach is compared to what you think that I do; I mean, it's a simple question, why can't you answer it? or do you not think it worthwhile to do those things? I mean, I will concede that, in the whole range of manual therapy,tui na isn't exactly the most sophisticated or comprehensive system out there, but even still, you must have something for balancing the three major diaphragms and for rebalancing vision, right?


I didn't level anything against your profession. I told the truth.
or at least your self-serving, malt-liquor fueled version of it...


According to you you're not an "ordinary" PT. That may be true but I have only my experiences to judge from just like you.
this I agree with; you must be sobering up! :)


Your profession doesn't help people much.
oh dear, now you've fallen back off the wagon :( and you were doing so well for a moment there!
you know, before you make stupid generalizations, you should really know what the entire field encompasses, who they work with and what they actually do; it would be like me saying "the profession of Chinese Medicine doesn't help people much" based on the fact that I have had numerous clients referred to me by TCM practitioners who they were unable to help and who I was able to help; but I've never said that; and nor have any of those same TCM practitioners said "PT doesn't work" when I've sent them clients that I didn't feel I was getting satisfactory results with; but, then again, this is how professionals behave towards each other, collegially, instead of referring to each other as "dumb" or what they suggest as "crappy" or "asinine"; do you get it yet?


I'm sorry(not really) this is a sensitive issue for you.
again, I would suggest that you actually read my posts before saying stupid stuff; see, if I wrote

TBH, I personally wouldn't let 90% of PT's out there touch me;
would that seem to indicate that someone being critical of PT is a "sensitive issue" for me? or would that seem to indicate that I actually might AGREE that what many (if not most) orthopedic, out-patient PT's are doing is ineffectual? of course, that would, again, take away one of your main talking points, as all you can seem to do is revile me for my alleged sub-standard treatments that do nothing more than generate income based on recidivism;
fact is, I have no problem with people pointing out the short-comings of PT, but they should do it based on reasoned assessment of the situation, not on their knee-jerk reactionary need to be "alternative"...


You should practice some of that qi gong you study before replying.
you should practice basic reading comprehension before replying


I do find it entertaining that you systematically break down my posts, call them rants, even though your ranting is in smaller paragraphs.
well, it's nice that you are entertained; it would be nicer if you knew what the word "rant" actually means;


In the last few days you've probably spent more time interacting with me than with your weaner. You need to reverse the process. Focus more on your weanie instead of your keyboard.
really? is that the best that you can do? make wiener jokes? seriously? are you like, 12 years old? that's just, I don't know, sad...and more than a little bit troubling as well...please don't do that anymore, its creepy; and please, don't ever tell me what caused to you to think about my "wiener" in the first place; that's even creepier;


We're coming from totally different ideologies(yours a little more like following the sheep than mine).
lol; you have NO IDEA what "ideology" I function out of; but as far as following sheep, you realize that you are spouting the same anti-establishment, contrarian-for-its-own-sake viewpoint that is the mainstay of the majority of unlicensed "holistic" types I've encountered; so if anyone is following the heard, it's you, it's just a heard that doesn't think it's a heard, which is kinda sad; fact is, your comments demonstrate that in your fervor to prove the mainstream wrong, you have become just as dogmatic as those you criticize; and that impedes your ability to discern what my actual take on things really is


I hope you're happy stealing copayments from grandma.
and yet again, you have to make condescending stereotypical remarks (which, BTW, would include your girlfriend, since, as a PTA, she's really part of the problem - how do you manage to look her in the eye and tell her you love her when she necessarily engages in practices that you find abhorrent to your highly-evolved sense of morality and ethics? or does that no matter as long as she rubs you the right way?); as usual, you obviously have absolutely no idea about the nature of my practice, but instead rely on your own limited viewpoint to try to pigeon-hole me; what a shock! oh, FYI, I don't take co-pays or insurance, and I adjust my rates based on what people are able to afford, and if they are really indigent, I treat them for free (:eek:); look, if you are going to try to insult me, at least get your facts straight please;


It baffles me that insurance covers PT.
it baffles me that you can just go on and on without any real concern as to whether or not what you write makes an ounce of sense or not;

so, are you going to keep "stopping"? you have a strange way of "stopping"; see, I'll keep going as long as you continue to make ridiculous comments, and do not plan on giving you the last word, so long as you continue to adhere to your rigid perspective (and BTW, yes, I do use a lot of words; why you feel the need to point that out is strange - am I supposed to feel bad about that? if you think what I write is too long, just don't respond, or better yet, don't read it; and you know, you can always put me on "ignore", although I doubt you will, because for all your moaning about me and protestations to the contrary, you are just as inclined to keep engaging); so if you are really "stopping", now would be a good time;

[taai gihk yahn]

To whoever made the gauche comment which pompously implied that I, a Reverend and Taoist, am somehow naive to Taoist concepts, perhaps you should open a few Taoist canons along with your eyes because as Lao Tzu said, in Chapter 56 of the most famous of all Taoist literature:

"Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
Black the passages,
Shut the doors,
Let all sharpness be blunted,
All tangles untied,
All glare tempered.
All dust smoothed.
This is called the mysterious leveling.
He who has achieved it cannot either be drawn into friendship or repelled,
Cannot be benefited, cannot be harmed,
Cannot either be raised or humbled,
And for that very reason is highest of all creatures under heaven."

with all due respect, the point of this passage is not to provide a rationale for proscription on speech per se; for example, the first line: when you "know" Tao, you don't need to "speak" about it, because you embody it - at the same time, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't speak, or that if you choose to speak, that you don't "know";

as for the rest of it, you realize that this is really coming out of Ch'an Buddhist practice more so than Taoist shamanic tradition, right? it's pretty much a reiteration of Prajnaparamitra Sutra...

and indeed, I've always found it interesting that the last line, after a whole discourse on taking a non-hierarchical perspective on things, goes on to contextualize it in a hierarchical one (which is not wrong, but it should tell you something about how this passage reconciles the inherent paradox of the Relative and Absolute necessarily coexisting)

BTW, the fact that you took umbrage at someone allegedly implying that you are naive to Taoist concepts suggests that you yourself have not embodied the principles of the "mysterious leveling" yourself; of course, you may be already aware of that yourself, but as a Reverend and Taoist, you would doubtless want it pointed out to you if you were not;

[taai gihk yahn]

I can't be the only one on here who appreciates the irony of a protracted discussion about ideologies and Tao taking place on a thread about a hyperextended (as if pointing excessively) finger!

[Scott R. Brown]

I can't be the only one on here who appreciates the irony of a protracted discussion about ideologies and Tao taking place on a thread about a hyperextended (as if pointing excessively) finger!

Hmmmmmmm.....um.....nope, I don't see it! :p

Maybe you have to be a Dr.Tao or a Reverend Taoist to see something in nothing!;)

[taai gihk yahn]

Hmmmmmmm.....um.....nope, I don't see it! :p
then you need to drink more; you can ask savysavage for directions to the nearest malt-liqueur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JpwjnMFlJI) retailer (DAAMN!)


Maybe you have to be a Dr.Tao or a Reverend Taoist to see something in nothing!;)
I see London, I see France, I see Lao Tzu's underpants.

[Scott R. Brown]

then you need to drink more; you can ask savysavage for directions to the nearest malt-liqueur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JpwjnMFlJI) retailer (DAAMN!)

I think this is more his speed: Girl Drink Drunk! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_H_sVNgvf4&feature=PlayList&p=7AF19E1B5D72BF65&index=0&playnext=1)