Wing Chun Centerline

[JPinAZ]

Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.

Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages ;)

[Vajramusti]

Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.

Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages ;)
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Jung sin = centerline or centerline plane

Jung sum sin = vertical motherline

See also the arucle entiteld "Defending the Motherline" at:<www.tempewingchun.com>


joy chaudhuri

[JPinAZ]

Thanks Joy. I read a good portion of the article. I see a lot about the motherline (Jung sum sin). Unless I missed it, not much regarding the Center line (Jung sin). For you, what is the distinction and/or relation between the two?

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Joy. I read a good portion of the article. I see a lot about the motherline (Jung sum sin). Unless I missed it, not much regarding the Center line (Jung sin). For you, what is the distinction and/or relation between the two?
----------------------------------------------------------
JP- whenever there are two persons involved- the jung sin is the centerline or plane connecting the two jung sum sins involved. If you are alone your jung sin is the connection between your
jung sum sin and that of your shadow- for instance in the mirror.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

In addition to one's own main centerline (motherline), and in addition to attacking the CENTER of the mass that the opponent is showing you - when you are close enough to do this....for me there is also the shoulder lines that can be viewed as two additional centerlines (sometimes referred to as part of a general TWC term, the CENTRAL LINE).

[bennyvt]

we tend to say axis. While it is still not totally correct it gives a better idea then centre line. We just say your centre depends on your opponent. It is the shortest distance in a straight line to your opponents centre. So if they are in front then the normal centre applies. If they are on my right side them until i can turn to correct my hand should go from where it is to his face. This would be the centre line as well. So you can either think of several centres or just 'the centre is from where my fist starts to his face in a straight line.'

[LSWCTN1]

in Lee Sing wing chun i was taught the obvious centreline theory about protecting it as it contains the nose, chin, throat, solar plexus, and groin. all very vulnerable areas.

i also learn it as an axis, but that it is slightly different in that you uproot/manoeuvre them through this axis. i learnt very little about fighting centreline to centreline in LSWC as this wasnt the approach that was favoured

in WSL method i learn a LOT of centreline to cetreline fighting. yet they had the same teacher... different strokes for different folks i guess

[k gledhill]

The centerline is defined each time we open a form.
We x the wrists and extend along the line .
This is a striking line the fists /elbows follow.
We are shown to aim the fingers down , this stops the elbows from raising up and down as we learn NOT to raise the elbows up and down while fighting.

the centerline is intersected by our arms in acute angles that create a forearm surface area capable of becoming a deflecting surface/controlling also allowing our fists to strike forwards at the same time without stopping to stick , or use the hand itself to stop the striking idea and go into chasing, grabbing, over trapping/sticking, etc... just one strike along the centerline, followed by another who's wrists is also xing along the centerline as it swaps out in rotation.
By intersecting the 'c' line we create an attacking line that is never open to counters...
By attacking with one lead and one rear hand we can never be trapped to stop our attacking hand...unlike using two extanded hands along the same line [as drills].

the line , by design wil intersect 'potential' contact by adopting angling tactics, to strike over lines of potential force....iow we strike with the idea to tactically be xing any arm that comes at us with our centerline...[we only face each other vt & vt to drill from]

centerlines dont fight facing each other...knife examples will allow the idea to be understood. We dont want to make the opponent 'equal' using their 2 hands /weapons versus our 2 hands/ weapons...so we attempt to use the line to aim it and move it or allow the opponent to cross it themselves , as we fight them.

The intial drawing of the line before every form seems to be low so other ideas are born from lack of understanding this idea...its not a high low gaun sao , yet many will train years thinking this.

The forsm are for solo time to train your strikes /elbow positions along the line you start with , for reference to move your wrists along and position your elbows...

Our form SLT starts with making the striking path of our arms symmetrically before us. The idea being we can strike and reach with both arms to the target.

We then strike with our fist first xing the line then the elbow coming to the line as the wrists stays xing... a line forming from outside of our wrists to the inside of our elbow ...
froming a basic strike starting position. The tighter the better. Then we strike ...

To give the newly learned punch with 'empty energy' a new striking idea , we then move to form section with TAN-huen-JUM then vu sao and we repeat this several times back and forth along the line, wrists xing elbows moving to the centerline before striking off and back to the line later ....

We only do this elbow in training in SLT ....the shoulder girdle muscles of the pec's and the lat's are used to connect the striking upper arm position inwards [ elbows move in]

so we develop endurance to maintain the elbows in so the strikes adopt an acute angle for development further in dan chi sao...etc...to fighting.

In the SLT we use the line as reference to move our wrists to before the elbow so we develop instinctive positioning with little thought..

To give the centerline alignment under pressure/force, we use simple arm exercises

dan chi sao we dont use a downward wrist deflection becasue many adopt the wrist from not being taught jum sao in the beginning of SLT ..many go tan huen vu using wrist and move back etc...jumonly being shown in the latter sect of SLT ...

Dan chi allows the wrist and elbows to stay aimed at the head of the partner/opponent while utilizing the shoulder girdle muscles to 'hold' the initial striking position , thus giving us a basic punch with the ability to 'hold and protect our own vulnerability as we attack ...[attack being the goal to develop]

a tan sao uses the elbow to spread away from the centerline elbow position making the energy of the elbow spreading off the centerline , disperse anything away and 'outside the forearm as it strikes forwards with a vertical palm or fist [ v palm is elbow moving out]
A jum counter in the dan chi-sao is using the muscle group to 'hold' the line inwards , thus giving the partner some counter force to avoid focusing on moving the arm and taking the tan offline like a basic karate block... The jum sao start by doing elbow in as SLT section before elbows relax back to vu sao posiitons....In the drill we hold the elows in and kep them in as we strike the partners arm after they do tan strike...
Our jum force maintains protective coverag along the centerline from the inside of the arm , a horizontal or sidepalm creates jum force too....[ dummy is tan and jum at the sides aligning].

With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we beging to realixze that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development , for feeling sticking chasing mistakes.
These mistakes are easily shown , by training with sudden arm displacemnt from either partner, to see if one or the other is following the arm rataher than aiming to strike the partner AND use the arm alignment to do the deflecting secondary ...

The 2 stage elbow position / strike is then made redundant as we progress to the next levels od chi-sao....becaus we now have arms capable of basic 2 action strikes but with the idea to further this ability so they don strike in 2 beats anymore while freefighting...

simple punches from angles using out/in force of the strikes or opposite depending what side you fight from to fight the oponents centerline positions...


mobility and alignment ....;)

Chum ki gives mobility to the SLT idea ...

many will fight our arms because they are out stretched before us.....like meat to hungry animal

By striking x ing our line we naturally sweep it of obstacles and create our own bridging actions , reclaiming the striking attack by simply ...striking again. Tut sao or the sweeping hands , swapping out teach this idea, to seamlessly without opening your centerline, swap strikes out and recover the ability to strike from the VU-Sao = attacking hand ....tut sao is not a wrist grab freeing hand 'move' only a fool would think this. Again its aimed low to stop elbows coming up and down.

The Centerlines are used in a spatial manner only relative to the vt fighter and his arms along it as they rotate and stay aligned along it...

When we do the dummy many assume we turn away from the main body to 'turn' energy..this is a mistake that is simple to rectify, by thinking that wherever your centerline is aiming , is where the opponent has moved to....ie they where in fron then went right or left as you attacked them. get out of the idea of turning your centerline away from them....

Think firing a rifle in motion with a guy trying to fire with 2 possible weapons back at you....maintain motion to stay out of the center of 2 hands /legs. Be a hard target .. dont adopt a lead leg in a face off...your going to move right or left or along a parimeter line as the dummy before entering at the flanks ....this can be by their moves giving you entry to them or by attacking them and making them turn before you to cover up or you lop them to turn them ...

centerlines are relative to your aim and not being aimed back the same... why vt doesnt fight vt only drills facing as a starting point to move from...chi-sao can be misleading if the goals arent explained early on...

[Yoshiyahu]

How many years should someone practice Sil Lim Tao...Is there ever a time when they should stop practicing it and go on to other things in life.


The centerline is defined each time we open a form.
We x the wrists and extend along the line .
This is a striking line the fists /elbows follow.
We are shown to aim the fingers down , this stops the elbows from raising up and down as we learn NOT to raise the elbows up and down while fighting.

the centerline is intersected by our arms in acute angles that create a forearm surface area capable of becoming a deflecting surface/controlling also allowing our fists to strike forwards at the same time without stopping to stick , or use the hand itself to stop the striking idea and go into chasing, grabbing, over trapping/sticking, etc... just one strike along the centerline, followed by another who's wrists is also xing along the centerline as it swaps out in rotation.
By intersecting the 'c' line we create an attacking line that is never open to counters...
By attacking with one lead and one rear hand we can never be trapped to stop our attacking hand...unlike using two extanded hands along the same line [as drills].

the line , by design wil intersect 'potential' contact by adopting angling tactics, to strike over lines of potential force....iow we strike with the idea to tactically be xing any arm that comes at us with our centerline...[we only face each other vt & vt to drill from]

centerlines dont fight facing each other...knife examples will allow the idea to be understood. We dont want to make the opponent 'equal' using their 2 hands /weapons versus our 2 hands/ weapons...so we attempt to use the line to aim it and move it or allow the opponent to cross it themselves , as we fight them.

The intial drawing of the line before every form seems to be low so other ideas are born from lack of understanding this idea...its not a high low gaun sao , yet many will train years thinking this.

The forsm are for solo time to train your strikes /elbow positions along the line you start with , for reference to move your wrists along and position your elbows...

Our form SLT starts with making the striking path of our arms symmetrically before us. The idea being we can strike and reach with both arms to the target.

We then strike with our fist first xing the line then the elbow coming to the line as the wrists stays xing... a line forming from outside of our wrists to the inside of our elbow ...
froming a basic strike starting position. The tighter the better. Then we strike ...

To give the newly learned punch with 'empty energy' a new striking idea , we then move to form section with TAN-huen-JUM then vu sao and we repeat this several times back and forth along the line, wrists xing elbows moving to the centerline before striking off and back to the line later ....

We only do this elbow in training in SLT ....the shoulder girdle muscles of the pec's and the lat's are used to connect the striking upper arm position inwards [ elbows move in]

so we develop endurance to maintain the elbows in so the strikes adopt an acute angle for development further in dan chi sao...etc...to fighting.

In the SLT we use the line as reference to move our wrists to before the elbow so we develop instinctive positioning with little thought..

To give the centerline alignment under pressure/force, we use simple arm exercises

dan chi sao we dont use a downward wrist deflection becasue many adopt the wrist from not being taught jum sao in the beginning of SLT ..many go tan huen vu using wrist and move back etc...jumonly being shown in the latter sect of SLT ...

Dan chi allows the wrist and elbows to stay aimed at the head of the partner/opponent while utilizing the shoulder girdle muscles to 'hold' the initial striking position , thus giving us a basic punch with the ability to 'hold and protect our own vulnerability as we attack ...[attack being the goal to develop]

a tan sao uses the elbow to spread away from the centerline elbow position making the energy of the elbow spreading off the centerline , disperse anything away and 'outside the forearm as it strikes forwards with a vertical palm or fist [ v palm is elbow moving out]
A jum counter in the dan chi-sao is using the muscle group to 'hold' the line inwards , thus giving the partner some counter force to avoid focusing on moving the arm and taking the tan offline like a basic karate block... The jum sao start by doing elbow in as SLT section before elbows relax back to vu sao posiitons....In the drill we hold the elows in and kep them in as we strike the partners arm after they do tan strike...
Our jum force maintains protective coverag along the centerline from the inside of the arm , a horizontal or sidepalm creates jum force too....[ dummy is tan and jum at the sides aligning].

With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we beging to realixze that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development , for feeling sticking chasing mistakes.
These mistakes are easily shown , by training with sudden arm displacemnt from either partner, to see if one or the other is following the arm rataher than aiming to strike the partner AND use the arm alignment to do the deflecting secondary ...

The 2 stage elbow position / strike is then made redundant as we progress to the next levels od chi-sao....becaus we now have arms capable of basic 2 action strikes but with the idea to further this ability so they don strike in 2 beats anymore while freefighting...

simple punches from angles using out/in force of the strikes or opposite depending what side you fight from to fight the oponents centerline positions...


mobility and alignment ....;)

Chum ki gives mobility to the SLT idea ...

many will fight our arms because they are out stretched before us.....like meat to hungry animal

By striking x ing our line we naturally sweep it of obstacles and create our own bridging actions , reclaiming the striking attack by simply ...striking again. Tut sao or the sweeping hands , swapping out teach this idea, to seamlessly without opening your centerline, swap strikes out and recover the ability to strike from the VU-Sao = attacking hand ....tut sao is not a wrist grab freeing hand 'move' only a fool would think this. Again its aimed low to stop elbows coming up and down.

The Centerlines are used in a spatial manner only relative to the vt fighter and his arms along it as they rotate and stay aligned along it...

When we do the dummy many assume we turn away from the main body to 'turn' energy..this is a mistake that is simple to rectify, by thinking that wherever your centerline is aiming , is where the opponent has moved to....ie they where in fron then went right or left as you attacked them. get out of the idea of turning your centerline away from them....

Think firing a rifle in motion with a guy trying to fire with 2 possible weapons back at you....maintain motion to stay out of the center of 2 hands /legs. Be a hard target .. dont adopt a lead leg in a face off...your going to move right or left or along a parimeter line as the dummy before entering at the flanks ....this can be by their moves giving you entry to them or by attacking them and making them turn before you to cover up or you lop them to turn them ...

centerlines are relative to your aim and not being aimed back the same... why vt doesnt fight vt only drills facing as a starting point to move from...chi-sao can be misleading if the goals arent explained early on...

[Vajramusti]

BennyVT's "axis" is a good characterization - I also use it and is equivalent to jung sum sin.
The center line is not static- varies with facing. The shoulder lines point to the center lines.
joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

"With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we begin to realize that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development." (k gledhill)
...............................

***Good one. The main purpose of the centerline within Wing Chun is to provide a principle and a strategy that starts with a tight defense, but ultimately leads to the ability to continuously strike your opponent while minimizing his ability to attack you - because you dominate the LINE that represents, at any given moment, a PATH that is the shortest distance between the two of you...and so your strikes come in at a speed and at a CLOSE ENOUGH DISTANCE that makes it very difficult for him to stop, counter attack, or escape.

Now add in some strong forward movement that keeps his body in check, jammed up, perhaps even backing up and hopefully even somewhat unbalanced - and now we see a good chance of a knockout coming.

[Vajramusti]

If carefully read one can see some different starting points in 3 Ip man lines linked in one way or another to Ho Kam Ming, WSL and TWC. There are similarities and differences-the devil in the details.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.

Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages ;)

WC Centerline is an imaginary line between your center of mass and your opponent's center of mass. Its use in WCK and in fighting has to do with the idea that an attack traveling down this line will reach an opponent more quickly than an attack off of the centerline. Also, that occupying the centerline with a structured tool such as jong sau leaves you in a position to both block direct attacks from your opponent as well as to launch attacks yourself in the most direct fashion. In a free-form fighting or sparring application functionally centerline is used in manipulating the space between yourself and your opponent through footwork and the bridge such that your facing is along the centerline and your opponents is not, leaving you with the opportunity to attack along the centerline while your opponent needs to react and re-establish their defense along the centerline. This is used in conjunction with forward intent or forward pressure to maintain a constant offensive threat towards the opponent making it difficult for them to regain their structure, balance, or facing along the centerline.

[chusauli]

Jung Sum Sien would be better translated as "Center of Gravity line", but it would not seem to exactly coincide with Augustine Fong's definition of "Mother" or "Vertical" line...

Jung Sien is:

1) Attack and defense line
2) Anatomical Centerline (Anatomy Western or Chinese)
3) Two hands are even (when you steer a car, you are not exactly driving straight, but making adjustments left and right)
4) the center of gravity
5) Fastest line of entry
6) Attack on the point of contact

These concepts are not limited to what is called Jung Sien in Chinese, but are the basis for WCK's concept of Jung Sien Dui Ying (Centerline correspondence/facing).

[k gledhill]

How many years should someone practice Sil Lim Tao...Is there ever a time when they should stop practicing it and go on to other things in life.

its up to you...After x amount of years I do elbow 'in'ntractions :D while waiting for an elevator etc...anytime I'm alone I find myself doing a vt arm thing...snapping the bong sao laterally across the line sharply and bringing then elbow back in to strike as fast as I can...trying to make it snappy and recovering with little thought...to do things thoughtlessly you must do them 1000's of times.

The chi-sao dan chi~ lok sao etc....ingrains us with these movements and positions, with a goal in YOUR mind the countless bongsaos that recover back to strike etc...the 1000's of attacking entries with a 1/2 step into the center ...the counters to an entry side with the correct angles /impact/ balance ...takes time. How long is how much you can do it with partners.

Forms are 'solo' time for you to develop a good endurance for your stance so its effortless in a real fight of a few seconds...you drop low and fight ...balanced with footwork from Chum Kil...turning on your axis builds a confidence in motion along with flowing mobility ...

The dummy gives us an impact alignment tool to develop 'ging' or shock force and alignment while also training a cycling attack/defense rotation in the arms...each arm cycles from attacking to deflection and back again in the first sections...

dummy is attacking along the parallel line before an opponent avoiding the attack but moving laterally to your line

Like walking into a room and turning the light off, locking the car door , we do them so many times that it becomes an action we do as we pass the switch, we forget if we locked the car door becasue we did it without thinking about it....

make vt like a light switch and you can rest :D

[k gledhill]

further to the centerline idea in SLT etc....If you use your wrists to deflect in chi-sao you will NEVER develop the striking simultaneously with 2 free arms along the centerline idea....iow do a downward wrist to a tan strike etc...in dan chi... uh, uh, aint gonna happen ......how are you going to drop your wrist over a strike... drop it down...THEN hit up, simple really , you wont ..unless your being shown to fight in a drill ... then fighting a different way in 'sparring' at the end of class :D


wristing is a bad word :D we do it in bil gee....because we have to. last resort stuff...

[Yoshiyahu]

further to the centerline idea in SLT etc....If you use your wrists to deflect in chi-sao you will NEVER develop the striking simultaneously with 2 free arms along the centerline idea....iow do a downward wrist to a tan strike etc...in dan chi... uh, uh, aint gonna happen ......how are you going to drop your wrist over a strike... drop it down...THEN hit up, simple really , you wont ..unless your being shown to fight in a drill ... then fighting a different way in 'sparring' at the end of class :D


wristing is a bad word :D we do it in bil gee....because we have to. last resort stuff...

Great answer Gled...

Any who I wanted to share what your protecting the center line you are protecting your Center Line. Its interesting its like there is an imaiginary line that travels up your chest over your head, down you back and under you perninum back to your groin and up your chest again. The front portion is called the Conception Meridan that back portion is known as that Governing Meridan. If one trains hard and develops his fist. He can strike this points with great power and end fights rather quickly.

Conception Meridan

http://www.lieske.com/images/set0/conception2-clear.gif


When you protect the center line you are protecting the points found on this channel. Thats why the center line theory is so important. In fact regardless if you attack over the gates or from outside the doors or if you attack by entering the doors. You are attacking their center line. When you attack from various gates you are attacking out doors. But when you open their doors and attack inside their guards you are in doors. The centerline aka motherline is teaching how to defend and attack the Governing and Conception meridans. These vessels are your targets. In fact if you have sand bag dummy which is made like a body filled with sand or rocks you should practicing hitting the points on the center line to memorize them. So it becomes natural or habitual. You want it to become normal where you automatically hit the Center line points with out thinking about it.

The wooden dummy form assist you in attacking the outer doors and entering inside the doors.

Below is a diagram of the Way Chi is theorized to circulate.

http://guidedwellbeing.net/images/Orbit_centres22.jpg


http://www.tehutionline.com/Micocosmic%20Orbit%203.jpg

[k gledhill]

Dont worry nothing a few beers and a good bar brawl cant fix....when 3 strange guys come at you with intent to do you harm ..the last thing on your mind is their centerlines :D

first come first served ...nearest weapon to target...woila :D 3 versus 1 skinny dude [me]

[Yoshiyahu]

Dont worry nothing a few beers and a good bar brawl cant fix....when 3 strange guys come at you with intent to do you harm ..the last thing on your mind is their centerlines :D

first come first served ...nearest weapon to target...woila :D 3 versus 1 skinny dude [me]

What if attacking their centerline is so ingrain that you instinctively attack their centerline!!!

[k gledhill]

that could be fixed...time heals all.

[Yoshiyahu]

Their is a dummy that is made so you can paint marks for the pressure points on it.


What is that dummy called?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

my 2 counterfeit cents on the "centreline..."

In the Moy Yat derived lineage I was in, there was the midline (equivalent to the motherline mentioned above) and the centreline (roughly equivalent to a combination of YoshiYahu's Ren Mai defense fixation and Vajramusti's centreline concept.)

In the Wing Chun I learned in BC, the motherline was the spine. Any action on the opponent should affect their spine, and we should protect our spine from being affected by our opponent. The centreline was closer to ChuSauLi's Jung Sien idea, but rather than being the "center of gravity" line, it was explained more as a "balance" line. Occupying the centreline is, therefore, a function of having the initiative regarding movement of one's motherline and that of one's opponent. In a striking situation this means applying a strike, block or deflection that will affect their balance, ie an appropriately structured tool along the appropriate line of force at the appropriate time.

In grappling/trapping situations, the same applies: having the initiative in regards to the motherlines, and directing force through the bridge in a way that will affect their balance.

[chusauli]

I'm afraid I am confused. I never use the term "mother line". What is that in Chinese? :confused:

I only heard the term "Jung Sien" (Centerline) or "Jung Sum Sien" (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese...

[Hendrik]

I'm afraid I am confused. I never use the term "mother line". What is that in Chinese? :confused:

I only heard the term "Jung Sien" (Centerline) or "Jung Sum Sien" (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese...


RC,


IMHO,

Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.

It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)

Today's there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai......etc. Too much stories.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hi Robert,

I understand your confusion - counterfeit currency tends to do that. ;)

It was very late when I posted that. I had just finished reading the whole thread, and wrote motherline instead of midline. Neither of my instructors used the Chinese names for midline and centreline - one of them used no chinese terminology at all. Even though they both expressed the ideas slightly differently, in the end they both used "midline" when talking about structural alignment (be it the symmetrical midline, meridians, spine, or vertical axis,) and "centreline" when talking about dynamic force alignment between oneself and one's opponent.

[Wayfaring]

I'm going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn't revisited this discussion:

HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.

1) Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent's structure.

2) Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent's centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.

So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.

The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is "you live and die on the centerline".

[duende]

I'm going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn't revisited this discussion:

HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.

1) Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent's structure.

2) Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent's centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.

So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.

The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is "you live and die on the centerline".

Or... to put it simply... 1) Self-Centerline, and 2) A->B Centerline (closest distance between two points. :)

Upon engagement (Jeet Kiu), HFY also employs the a third centerline.. the HFY Gee Ng Kiu or "the equator" between you and your opponent. This allows the HFY practitioner to understand the strategic usage of leverage and gravity within the bridge itself. But that's another discussion.


The concept of Centerline is not unique to Wing Chun however. Many other MA's employ centerline-control expressions in one form or another... take grappling's centerline control of the mount for instance.

One concept that is primary to WC, or at least of vastly greater importance... is our notion of Self-Centerline. IE. Maintaining one's balance throughout attacks and defense. Without it we would be leaning, diving, crouching, bending over... doing techniques that had already long been in employment by Animal Kung Fu and other styles.

This does not mean that one should never lean or commit one's gravity to a technique/application. That is not what I'm saying. Those techniques/applications have their own time and space, as any grappler can clearly demonstrate.

What I am saying is that physics of WC teaches us body mechanics and structure energy so that we can generate knock-out power without leaning or over-committing one's COG. And No... I'm not talking about some mystrerious/deadly "1-inch punch" here... I'm talking about rooting and knowing how to generate power from one's structure. A concept and physical expression that is not soley found in WC, but is however clearly defined by our WC concepts and principles.

So all this conversation of WC Centerline, mother-line... etc... bring up the question I have to ask.


Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline... meaning establishing their own balance and rooting.... without having a 50/50 stance?? :D

I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)

What say you??

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline... meaning establishing their own balance and rooting.... without having a 50/50 stance?? :D

I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)

What say you??

I think having your self-centreline means being rooted an balanced no matter what stance you take.

I'd say that the 50/50 stance has its time and place, like any other stance. Personally, I would try not to engage from anything other than a 50/50, but when a situation calls for it I'll gladly adopt a 100/0 stance or anything in between.

[CFT]

Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.

It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)

Today's there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai......etc. Too much stories."Tze Wu sien" = "Tze ng sien" = 子午線 which would translate as "meridian"; in other words the "North-South", "12 o'clock-6 o'clock" line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.

Babelfish translates centreline as: 中心線, so I can see why we say "jung sien".
For Centre of Gravity line we have: 重心線 (zung sum sien).

Checking out the dictionaries for Cantonese pronounciation, the 重 in 重心 should be pronounced like the 重 in 保重.

[k gledhill]

An axis line runs down from the head to ground....I relate the idea as a rotating door on a sliding track on the floor ...we move so the revolving door can face or shift back according to the lines of force presented and where they are. For us to 'face' them we use the track ...not fixed in rigid lines.
If the revolving door leans forwards or sidewyas , back it cant spin freely on its axis line
So we train in chum kil to have a god balanced movement with tracking, in any flowing combo, to maintain the goals we are also doing in the drills.

You make lateral force [left or right] against the revolving door and it simply turns to the next door space , etc...only the track moves so the revolving door is never in front of you to walk through. or gain axis to it's er...axis line.

We re create strike lines along the centerline as all this is going on :D so the attempts to stop the leading strike hand by lateral measures is easily thwarted because we are simply filling the void created by the previous exchange with the next ATTACKING action.
By having strikes individually trained to have the ability to be acting like 2 hands , we can use the forearm areas of our arms , striking , to maintain our centerline integrity...by keeping elbows in as we do this we keep the forearms along the line , intercepting anything that happens to intersect it, thoughtlessly, as we ATTACK...

If we allow a space or do too much hand chasing we dont do ATTACKING actions in every move , thus we allow or simply drop the goal...to ATTACK for 9 out of 10 seconds of the engagement.

goals ?how to achieve them....not by standing face to face rolling in a rooting centerline to centerline drill, thats redundant to the actual fighting idea...

Ali had the right idea ....float like a butterfly etc...only we attempt to sting like a SWARM of bees in that short space of time. No rope a dope, more like "hello, im going to be your attacker today, for our 10 second fight..." ...can you deliver a sustained assault without resorting to using 2 hands to fight one of theirs in every exchange...maintain correct angles if they come at you or move away from you, left right ....are you overusing lop saos ....or using the 2 primary attacking actions ?

centerlines become relative to the ideas you are developing , so you learn to strike along lines before you, that you know will intercept anything coming at your line as you angle to them, face them, attack them....

After a while you realize your only facing each others centerlines in chi-sao so you have equal ability to train these ideas, so you can reach with either arm to strike the targets...like gun shooting practice in a range , before moving outside to the practical pistol range where you utilize cover , learn to shootand reload with your weak hand, under stress of timed competition...using blanks in drills to avoid taking the barrel off the target in anticipation of [contacting the arm] rather than staying on target..drills ...without the goals you may end up trying to figure out how to fight a guy whos decided to extend 2 arms at you and roll up and down while standing in a basic stance too...:D kind of like standing infront of a gy with a gun as he fires back and you fire back facing him trying to block[chase] bullets...

if you can fire and stay out of the face of 2 potential shooting lines and use one of yours extended at a time WHILE adopting movements to give you "cover" from being in the firing line...if the guy tries to face you you move or control the shooting hand to miss as you counter fire at HIM not his arm....

Knives teach us the value of isolating one side and attacking it with a facing 2handed , one kicking legged attack at at time...potentially 3 actions at once versus 1 while staying out of the 'firing range' alley.

Under stress you dont think...many policemen found that under stres they stood upright and pointed their weapon at guys firing back at them...because ? thats how they trained over and over and over...until they realized under stress you dont think very well :D your re-chambering stuff , putting the saftey on by mistake, gun jams but you canat figure out a simple routine ...under stress.

Just fire and move DONT THINK, use the centerline as your front and rear sights...move for cover in close proximity...its not going to be a long fight.

[Vajramusti]

CFT sez:
"Tze Wu sien" = "Tze ng sien" = 子午線 which would translate as "meridian"; in other words the "North-South", "12 o'clock-6 o'clock" line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.

Babelfish translates centreline as: 中心線, so I can see why we say "jung sien".
For Centre of Gravity line we have: 重心線 (zung sum sien).
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CFT- a quetsion on language and terminology not on martial mechanics in motion or dynamics:

COG-centre of gravity would be more post Galilean in contemporary English language.(I am NOT asserting that in Asian worlds they did not know about the effects of gravity). In your Chinese characters and in the context above what are other alternative meanings for "sum" in between
jung and sien?

Thanks,

joy chaudhuri

[CFT]

CFT- a quetsion on language and terminology not on martial mechanics in motion or dynamics:

COG-centre of gravity would be more post Galilean in contemporary English language.(I am NOT asserting that in Asian worlds they did not know about the effects of gravity). In your Chinese characters and in the context above what are other alternative meanings for "sum" in between
jung and sien?

Thanks,

joy chaudhuriI don't think it is a good idea to split the compounds "中心" and "重心". On its own 心 can mean "heart" or "centre". So "中心" does mean "centre"/"middle", whereas "重心" refers to the centre of weight, i.e. CoG.

[chusauli]

Great job CFT!

Hendrik, you are correct! "Zi Wu Xian" is better than the common vernacular terms and have more meaning. 12 Di Zhi begin with "Zi" and the 7th is "Wu".

WCK suffers from much incorrect translation, stories, MSU.

[Vajramusti]

Language attempts to capture symbolically- an entity, an event,a process etc. But the key martial
challenge is understanding the motion. Thanks again,

joy chaudhuri

[duende]

"Tze Wu sien" = "Tze ng sien" = 子午線 which would translate as "meridian"; in other words the "North-South", "12 o'clock-6 o'clock" line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.

Babelfish translates centreline as: 中心線, so I can see why we say "jung sien".
For Centre of Gravity line we have: 重心線 (zung sum sien).

Checking out the dictionaries for Cantonese pronounciation, the 重 in 重心 should be pronounced like the 重 in 保重.

Thanks for the correct Cantonese pronounciations CFT.

Meridian.... Equater... they are expressed in the Tao Yin/Yang symbol. With the equator being expressed by the "S" that runs through the middle.

This is also precisely where our HFY Gee Ng Ma footwork (crossing footwork between you and your opponent) comes from.

[bennyvt]

im not sure when centre of gravity would be used. I learnt that in judo but its normally used for throws isn't it. The only use i could see would be when you have a choice being to push the guy over like a take down or to push them away (not a good choice to have to make). Maybe when you intercept someone but that is more about using his momentum.

[TAYLOR1]

In Hung Fa Yi, we have three centerline concepts. The first is self centerline. An example is when working through my siu nim tao form and I’m expressing centerline through only my structures and facing because I don’t have an opponent.

The second centerline is expressed when I have a partner and I have a “point A to point B.” From what I understand, TWC has a central line, which allows one line for attack and one for defense. Hung Fa Yi has something similar called Four Gate defense using tools like Biu Da and Tan Da.

Hung Fa Yi’s third centerline is referred to as Hung Fa Yi Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Dei centerline. This centerline is expressed when bridging occurs and allows me to attack your center of gravity. It offers superior position and goes through energy challenges. There is extensive training to develop this. This training teaches us how to fight against a boxer, grappler or an mma stylist.

[iwingchun]

The most important thing in wing chun system is to protect the centerline, because at the centerline are all "sensitive organs" like heart etc. That's why you learn to protect the centerline from your first lessons. :)

I found a web page with many information and many videos about wing chun here : http://www.wing-chun.ws

[k gledhill]

That is why we strike along the line in rotation....the tut sao action from the SLT last section aka shaving hands is performed with fingers aimed low , but is in fact the xing of the line as the lead /spent hand/strike, recovers back to a new vu-sao position.
By this action we seamlessly thread the line as we extend and retract our hands .

Therefore making the entry to our own centers as we attack mindlessly, impenetrable because an arm is always striking /deflecting on it.....iow the training in vt is to avoid the hands / elbows leaving the line to chase for this reason...to avoid opening up the line..., by maneuvering the line tactically we can achieve this goal....the drills ingrain the intuitive positioning and natural line striking ...elbows are kept low to avoid losing the short lever strength/integrity.

Further making the idea of standing shoulder to shoulder as a drill like chi-sao , redundant. As is using two extended arms like chi-sao in a fight also redundant...facing a guy and turning to chase a gate with a flying tan sao off the line...further redundancy.......

what are you training to do ? chase and block, stand in the center of a guy who may or may not shoot at your legs...staying in a stance that you did for drills with a partner ? or are you becoming a "Hard Target" ...

SO based on that one can see the redundancy of your tan or other arms ...leaving the centerline while attacking, further making the idea of tan sao leaving to block / chase a gate redundant too...

tan sao doesnt leave the centerline nor does its striking partned jum sao, these 2 striking partners are the cornerstone of the VT attack. Very simple but with tactical alignment , gives economy of motion 2 actions in each BASIC strike....

The Line serves to gives us a reference in training, why we create a strike line with the wrists along the line ...in reality the opening moves are this line , but the idea isnt explained and it is thought of as a high low gaun sao :o ...ever wonder why an attacking system starts with 2 defensive actions in succession...answer, it isnt .

Its done with fingers aimed low to avoid raising the elbows ....wrists x the line ....if you have a rear vu sao xing the line , then on its extension along the line will contact anything on it, even with a blind fold on and no pre-contact/feeling. MAkes running into a punch on the nose as you go to attack a little harder to be done :D.

If you strike along this line at angles , re-enforced through training drills , dummy angling alignment etc...you have a line that naturally intersects anything coming back at it, while you maintain the ttack with little thought to defend your line, because its been taken care of in training.


brilliant system.

[Yoshiyahu]

Great job CFT!

Hendrik, you are correct! "Zi Wu Xian" is better than the common vernacular terms and have more meaning. 12 Di Zhi begin with "Zi" and the 7th is "Wu".

WCK suffers from much incorrect translation, stories, MSU.

How does this terminology and knowledge translate into real fighting?

Whats the benefit when it comes to actually fighting off a living, breathing, struggling opponent who is aggressively trying to do you in?