sparring in kung fu

[EARTH DRAGON]

I was just wondering if anyone has some good suggestions on sparring without tourny style attitude. it seems when people spar it is hard to get real reactions from them becuase of the non commitment and pulling of punches and expecting to be hit. It seems when I spar it comes back to the old wait for the opening and strike like tae kwon do teaches never understanding true reactions from your opponent. whats your view on this matter. thanx

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[Lost_Disciple]

Honestly, that's why I like San Da- but u didn't hear that from me. :)

You could try Kuo Shu rules or something:
helmet w/cage
gloves no fingers
feet
shins optional

Not sure about the contact rules. I am pretty sure that elbows and knees are legal though.

The area between point sparring and full contact is a bit blurry, it leads to the most injuries and the most lost tempers.

How do boxers do it when they spar? I think they pretty much go all out, just don't go for any knockouts, right?

[Scarletmantis]

I'm with Lost Disciple on this one. Good selection of gear, though I'd throw in the obvious groin protector and mouthpiece.

As far as rules are concerned: don't have them, wear enough gear to reduce the impact of a full power blow, but expect some discomfort.

The only blows that should be refrained from are techniques to the eyes. Joint locks and groin/throat strikes should be applied with a resonable amount of restraint.

Don't bother with keeping score etc., instead keep a timer on hand and keep your students sparring continuously for a preset amount of time. It dosen't matter who "wins" or "loses", make SURE that your students realize that this is a training EXERCISE, hopefully, one that will simulate a STREET FIGHT.

It is NOT competition. It is NOT a game. The only reason they should be broken apart, is if one student has submitted to the other, and even then it's only to get them right back at it.

Of course, all of this requires that a student be at a certain level. It's up to you as the teacher to decide when they're ready. If not, keep them drilling thier two-man forms, and monitor thier free sparring, paying special attention to form.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Earthdragon

"It seems when I spar it comes back to the old wait for the opening and strike like tae kwon do teaches never understanding true reactions from your opponent. whats your view on this matter. thanx"

But mantis teaches about creating openings. It's very different from tae kwon do because mantis is not about exchanging shots and attrition.

Maximus Materialize!

[EARTH DRAGON]

I understand your reponses about equipment, what im trying to get at is almost all tecniques work of a punch, hence "self defense" but it seems when I or my students spar they are never comminting when they throw a punch or they stay to defensively to attack. It is unlike the real life situation where some one plans to rear back and punch with everything they got , then its easy to redirect,counter strke the opening, joint lock or throw. But when sparring it never works like that for the above reasons, so Im trying to figure out a way to make both diffrences the same. thank you for your help and advice but even medium speed no contact has the same circumstances.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Earthdragon,

1) relative skill. if students of similar levels of skill spar, it is hard to get the techniques working, most likely will be countered. In the old days when I could practice, i expect a high degree of failed techniques, but always probing and testing for openings.

2) the mantis system (by defination of what it is) should teach the use of weight behind the techniques. This is apparent in all the forms.

So i don't kwnow if it's because your students are not apply the concepts properly, or they are of a similar level such that it is very difficult for someone to get the better of someone else.

But something that should be considered, is how well is the student who's "losing" can survive. Losing could be a tactical retreat or get plummetted to the ground. The former is better than the latter -> which also reflects appropriate use of techniques.

But it's quite correlctly ponited out that it is nott about point scoring. the scoring system is more "abstrat" in the sense that different students may be trying to achieve different objectives during a sparring session!

what do you think?

Maximus Materialize!

[yingching]

When two people face off with there hands up, they use alot more caution because they are expecting to get hit back.
Have a student swing at you while your hands are at your side, they will feel much more confident.
If you are approached by someone on the street, and you feel threatened and raise your hands, expect a fight. If you keep your hands down till he attacks you first, it is much easier to take him out quickly. Raising your hands up takes away a great strategy "The Element of Surprise".
Anyway, just my thought...

[Scarletmantis]

Earthdragon,

Do you spar with your students? If so, you have the ability to solve your own problem. Use the "rules" that I suggested earlier. Be aggressive and kick at your student's groin (for instance), use control, but DO NOT pull the kick.

If thier defence is weak, they'll know it. Get your students to do the same with you. Get a little rough with some of your advanced students, and they should follow suit. There are alot of would be "masters" out there who wouldn't think of trading blows with students, but don't let them fool you into thinking that it's because they're "too dangerous".

More likely, it's because the teacher is afraid of making a mistake and losing face. Well I gotta say that if your students can occassionally get a good shot in on you, it'll do wonders for thier confidence, and your motivation to get and stay good. Again, you must be willing to emphasize that this is a TRAINING EXERCISE, not a game.

I agree with Ego's comments on students of similar level. You and your students can learn alot from eachother, so I encourage you to spar together.

[EARTH DRAGON]

thank you ego and scarlet for your advice... it helps me understand other veiws on such a wide subject, that I find my self looking only in one direction. I Will take heed to your advice and incorporate it into our class.. thanks again

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[bamboo_ leaf]

This has worked for some of the people that I have trained in the past, I have found that the main problem with a lot of students in sparring or using a system is that they can not link movements in a free form manor according to what is happening.

So I divide the exercise into three areas.

1. closing
2. bridging
3. finishing movements.

In closing I have a person set up in the center and the other person the has to reach the person using 3 movements that the are comfortable with, or you chose the movements.
usaly i use 3 movements out of basic set, until they devlop a feel for movements that they like.

this can also be done useing a pole with a cup on it. the idea being to knock the cup off the pole on the last movement. distance, timeing, steping.

As time goes by these movements are reduced to 2 and finally to 1 movement.
This helps to teach many different types of skill sets. Also it forces the correct stepping and movement useing the style.

Bridging as the name implies is when contact is made either with a hand or foot. after reaching the oppoenet first contact is made. Once contact is made how can I put myself in the better position with befor attacking or defending. The idea being to contact putting your self in the better position. Again the movements are reduced until its done in one movement.

Finishing movements, using the 3-movement idea, and reducing them is to use a trip, throw or lock that the opponent can not recover from.

my teacher in korea use to use this type of drills to teach certain ideas or concepts that he wanted us to learn. I have found that this idea works well and gives people and myself time to examin and build good pm skill sets.

This lets people explore and work out the strategies of the style and examine their mistakes with out worrying too much about getting killed in the process. I don’t really agree with the idea of sparing because I think it tends to promote the idea of out lasting or wearing down the opponent as apposed to decisive finishing type movements. I feel that if you can't do someting in 1to 3 movements you need to be outa there very qickly. I do agree with having an attack defend or scenario type excerises.

hope you can use some of these ideas.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[BeiTangLang]

I am curious as to the 3 step closing,....Do you mean 3 techniques deep or 3 steps?? Thanks for sharing the teaching techniques, it is always good to get new ideas!
BTL

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I am curious as to the 3 step closing,....Do you mean 3 techniques deep or 3 steps?? Thanks for sharing the teaching techniques, it is always good to get new ideas!”

Thanks, the 3 steps refers to stepping and covering the entrance with 3 different types of techniques in much the same way the movements of the sets are done.
An example might be the first couple movements in bung bu after “catching the cicada”
I have found this practice promotes a couple of ideas that may be hard for people to catch:

1. Stepping and applying a technique coupled with the step. As opposed to just shuffling around like boxing. Protects the player on the way in.Close and bridge quickly.

2. Builds a keen awareness of distance between you and the opponent, helps to develop the idea of setting up indirect attacks leading to the real attack.

3. Couples the upper and lower body movements, promotes the usage of the style. Eventually as the closing becomes better understood the movements would be cut down from 3 to 2 and finally to one movement. This allows promotes the smooth integration of the stepping and hand actions.


Mantis has a unique way of combining 3 to 5 hand movements within one-stepping action using the waist and keeping the root in one foot. My senior classmates can within one-stepping action execute 5 upperbody movements. Very hard to counter. The exercise above allows people a way of getting in and covering the entrance in before applying a bridging action.

This also lets the instructor watch the coordination of the students. Try setting a cup on a pole. Have the student walk around the pole we used a natural walking action. The guard position is up to the student. When the teacher says go the student attempts the knock the cup off the top of the pole, with out knocking it over with either a hand or foot. You might even call out 3 movements and allow them to use those movements. Again this promotes the idea of makeing the use of the style a natrule part of the students way.

If a person is used instead of the pole this allows the person to judge the deceptiveness of the closing action. Another good combo first couple of movements from “white ape steals peach” again this is just to close distance establish a bridge.

The goal of the excerise is to be able to close using whatever movement you like.


Hope you find this helpful.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[This message was edited by bamboo_ leaf on 08-01-01 at 09:21 AM.]

[BeiTangLang]

With my current method of generating jing for my hand/body movements,...I am curious as to how & if you can describe doing 5 upper-body movements with one step. I know it may be difficult to describe, but if you would attempt to, I would be most greatful. I am always looking at ways to improve :)
Thank you in advance,
BTL

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[bamboo_ leaf]

how do you genarate your jing?
i ask this because i think it really depends on how much mind or streanght a person uses.

most post that i have read on this seem to indacate a high degree of streanght and speed involved. To me this is not the jing that high level CMA speaks of. try pushing a person with out them feeling the force from the push action. or leading a person useing only the back of the hand not by a grabing action.

part of the answer to your question: before the foot hits the ground the action is completed. the waist acts like the handle directing the upper body actions with one foot providing the root.

Feanceing might be a good example, they can parry and stick within one step.

just some thoughts, hope you find them usful

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[BeiTangLang]

My jing is based upon getting energy from the ground transfered through the body & into the target. I did a bit of experimenting last night & concluded that I can get abou 3 strikes in per step. I my style/lineage the strikes & steps end at almost the same time. As far as strength goes, we use more spiral torque than strength.
Thank you for your time & patients in explaining.
-BTL

"It's all the same; Only the names have changed........."

[baldmantiz]

it is quite amazing to see how jing helps the power of a punch. a couple of weeks ago when my sifu was explaining jing...first he had us punch just using our arm, then using the arm and shoulder, and then finally drawing the energy from the ground starting at the feet and all the way up through the arm. the difference between just using the arm strength and using jing is like night and day.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Baldmantis

What exactly is the type of energy that you're drawing from the ground?

How does it get transmitted through the feet and then through your arms?

No one has yet provided a clear explanation as to what Jing is composed of - or the defination of Jing.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[EARTH DRAGON]

this may be difficult to explian to you do to your scientific out look on chi or jing , something that cannot be proved as far as science goes but let me explain it this way. kinetic energy like that when a bull whip is cracked, is the same type of energy the human body can move through out it with proper movement, relaxed muscle and stong intent and focus. the 1 inch punch is performed this way, dropping the weight and allowing the movement from the ankle to move trough the body undisturbed and exploding at the end or in this case the fist.....

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

I would also like to add ( so not to get anyone in a uproar) there is many types of jing. The one bald mantis is describing is spiraling jing, corkscrew energy if you will.......

http://www.kungfuUSA.net