The Take It For Granted Thread

[Ultimatewingchun]

...We're going to take it for granted that if you participate in this thread, then you also endorse the following:

1) It's important to spar on a regular basis with skilled, resisting opponents...
2) It's important that such sparring includes frequent hard sparring - not just light sparring...
2) It's important to spar like this against people skilled in other martial arts, not just WC...
3) It's important that you be open minded about what strategies and techniques you use...
4) It's important to also include sparring against skilled grappler types...
5) It's important to also include sparring against skilled mma type fighters...

GREAT !!! :D :D :D

Now we can discuss, debate, argue, possibly even occasionally agree upon: WING CHUN !!! :) ;) :cool:

And so, if you're following the rules, there will be no need for anyone to come on here and try to play: THE WIZARD OF OZ !!! :p :) :eek:

You know the type, he's hides behind a big curtain (ie.- you never get to see what he's all about)...and he speaks incessantly in a big roar about what you should do, what you shouldn't do, what you should think and not think, who you should respect and not respect - and most of all - never disagree with him no matter how disproved or debunked some of his "teachings" are.

Okay, enough about this type of fellow.

Now onto some wing chun.

Pick a topic and state your case:

Forms
chi sao
wooden dummy
weapons
crosstraining
sparring
conditioning

etc....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, I'll start: let's talk about the Wooden Dummy.

How much of the WD have you been able to actually incorporate into your fighting/sparring?

What adjustments/modifications, if any, to the actual WD form do you make?

If you can take moves (or a series of moves) from the WD and use them in actual application, please give some examples...

Or is the WD just primarily a device to strengthen your limbs while simulating some WC fighting?

Or maybe you find the whole thing basically useless. If so, please explain why?

[LSWCTN1]

i havent learnt the form, but do get shown the odd drill here and there on the dummy.

i did hear a nice saying from Joseph Man though, "The dummy is your friend, it should not hurt you" meaning that if you go light contact, or full contact, on the dummy if it hurts you then you are doing it wrong!

[deejaye72]

i think the training from the dummy gives you certain attributes,but as far as picking moves and fighting with it,i cant say i ever have. i really do love the dummy form but,all you can use are the concepts and attributes.Against a resisting opponent,there's just no time for fancy moves.i'll comment more later,i have to get my daughter to school and get to work,later eddie

[kungfublow]

I haven't made it too far into the wooden dummy form. Just finished the fourth section. I personally find it very difficult to take some of those techniques and use them in sparring. I'm not sure whether you can transfer them over at all or whether I just can't figure out how do it. I'm assuming it's the fact that I just don't know how to do it.

All that being said I think I have learned alot from it. Things like footwork and the flow from one technique to the next, hand positions and correct angles, forward force and control. All good things I would say. I think there is a great value the WD form. All the things I have listed are things that I have managed to take with me into sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.

[Yoshiyahu]

My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.

What exactly is PE fist...in Wing Chun I know of

1.Vertical Fist
2.Phoneix Fist
3 Ginger Fist


So please share with what does PE fist look like are can you post a picture or link?

I agree with sanjuro First learn the dummy form. Then train it hard using hard force, snapping power and body structure to bounce the dummy. When you can bounce a 70-80lb dummy then a person face is nothing. Also Pad the dummy so your punches and palm strikes can get harder over time. When you begin to feel like hitting the pad at full strength is nothing at all. Then remove the pad. Begin hitting it soft and over time begin to add more and more power until you can hit the wood full strength with out damaging your hand or feeling pain.

Personally I believe one should try to hit the dummy softly and slow as well as a hard and fast. This trains two aspects of your Wing Chun which are the Yin and Yang.

Yin training produces Percision, Muscle memory, Soft Chi and correct technique, proper structure and proper body alignment when done slow.

Yang Training produces High Intensity fighting muscle memory, Stamina for fighting, Ability to generate power and ging into your opponent, Correct application while fighting speeds and power, Hard Chi and also how to do the moves correctly and accurately when going all out.

One needs to do both. Both are as important.

I suggest one does the form ten times a day. Fast & hard and Slow &soft

After that Freestyle through out the day. Just come down and hit your dummy for five minutes before you go to work each day hard and fast. Hit like your shadow boxing. Then hit it again for about 20 minutes when you get home before you do your form. Hit that dummy again for 5 to 10 minutes before you go to bed or after dinner. An you will begin to realize applications from the dummy.

The Mok Yan Jong has many applications. If you doubt it check out the Yip Man book on 116 Wing Tsum Wooden Dummy Techniques. They illustrate many applications at the back of the book. Also take indiviual sequences from the dummy. Asked your Sifu how to drill them with a partner. Then begin to unlock its secrets and develop correct timing and proper applications. Once you have drilled it with a partner at no more than medium force or soft force. Drill it on dummy harder. You will slowly be redefining your WC. Those with conditioning are far more formidable then those with out it. So the dummy is a form of ironing your weapons.

Also sometimes at work when your bored or on break go ahead and practice the Wooden dummy form in the air. After about a year of practicing in the air you should be able to freestyle in air. Now your really shadow boxing. Remember the techniques done in each form will not be done in real time verbatim. No one is going to allow you to complete a technique in the street. You may get the High Low Gan sau off but don't Expect to follow up with Kwun sau in real life. Some techniques have to be tweaked or modified so they fit the situtation. Maybe your defending against a kick, Attacking, Controlling, or just using an entry technique. Your purpose will dictate how you modify the techniques from the form. Remember the forms are a Encylopedia of techniques. You have to take those techniques and make sentences on your own. Once you learn your vocabulary its up to you to make it work. You never write a paper with every word in alphabetical order. So don't expect to fight with the form in that same order.

[sanjuro_ronin]

PE fist = Phoenix-eye fist.

[kungfublow]

1.Vertical Fist
2.Phoneix Fist
3 Ginger Fist

I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

1.Vertical Fist
2.Phoneix Fist
3 Ginger Fist

I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge. :D

1: Fist on the vertical plane, thumb side up.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qj2jwJIY3uY/SQETGqWfLcI/AAAAAAAAAsU/5p8HST1mezo/S1600-R/fist+jet+master+PUBLICITY.JPG
2.Fist with the index finger knuckle protruding
http://www.dynamicfightingarts.com/phoenix_eye1.jpg
3. Sometimes called a "leopard" or "panther" fist, strike with the knuckles of the fist in a "half-open" formation.
http://wikimartialarts.org/main/images/thumb/7/75/Leopard_kung_fu_1.JPG/180px-Leopard_kung_fu_1.JPG
Although in SPM, for example, the ginger fist is done diferently.
http://users.tpg.com.au/plg/images/sifu-sarm-bo-yiul-shou.jpg

[kungfublow]

Hey thanks! I guess I did know what those were I just never heard my sifu call them that. He normally just shows us and every now and again leaves the names out.

Thanks for the info!

[Yoshiyahu]

1.Vertical Fist
2.Phoneix Fist
3 Ginger Fist

I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge. :D

It appears the Sanjuro has some great pictures...I will also provide some as well...But since you have never heard of this punches...let me share some Wing Chun sources with you...

http://books.google.com/books?id=t36y4sRDkWMC&pg=PA57&dq=wing+chun+ginger+fist#v=onepage&q=wing%20chun%20ginger%20fist&f=false


http://books.google.com/books?id=BUH7afcq7xAC&pg=PA52&dq=wing+chun+phoenix+fist#v=onepage&q=wing%20chun%20phoenix%20fist&f=false


http://chiquanshu.org/images/hands/phoenix_eye.gif

http://www.cyberbudo.com/karate-jutsu-international/images/ginger.jpg


Of course the Verticle Fist or Sun Fist is just the way you do your chain punches in Wing chun. The horizotal fist is like jab in boxing where the chain punches are done vertically.

I realize not all WC lineages teach everything. But these fist are apart of mainland Wing Chun as well.

Great feedback Sanjuro. Also loved what you said about the Mok Yan Jong needing to be done with force as well as freestyle....

[kungfublow]

That's all great info thanks. It's nice to have some other sources to consult over and above my sifu.

I also like what you said about using the dummy with both soft force and full force. I would think that would make you more well rounded. I try to do that while I practice but sadly I don't have a dummy at home yet. So my time is limited.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.

I won't get into actually using moves (or sets of moves) from the WD in actual application in this post, other than to say that, yes, there are moves form each section that are fight applicable, imo...and are taught with that in mind by William Cheung.

But for now I want to focus on the rest of sanjuro's post: yeah, after doing the set routine (or sometimes even right in the middle of it)...freestyling on it is not only good - but it's an absolute must, imo.

Because you have to "make it yours", like everything else in WC, or any martial art for that matter. And the more you freestyle (and especially after you've come to understand the meaning of the set routine)...the better you get. Because you start doing things naturally and unconsciously - as this has to be the ultimate goal. One needs to get familiar with the "training/teaching" so intimately that you can perform under fire without thinking much about what you'll do next. It just comes. Including what may not be in the training/teaching/form.

And yeah, I padded my WD some years ago and go full blast power without fear of injuring my hands/elbows, and it has dramatically increased the time I became willing to spend on the WD, since the arms and leg serve to make full blast punching, kicking, knees, elbows, palm strikes, etc. more disciplined - as just going all out full abandon, while it might be good against a heavy bag, for example (which I also use at my school very frequently)...

can be a reckless act in actual sparring/fighting...so having to work your way around the WD arms/legs while still striking very hard adds a lot to the game.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I learned the WD form a long time ago, but even back then my older brother, one of them, taught me to fight the wooden man free style. I started out by doing SLT on the dummy. Then much later I started learning the dummy form. We would jump on it and bang the tar out of it. I would use an enter technique and start fighting, using different techniques as I went along. I think it makes for a more fluid transition from one move to the next doing that, plus it seems to have opened my options to meet different situations more. Does that even make sense?
I never use anything more than the verticle fist, palm, chop, and the bill gee finger stabs for hand techniques. Of course there is the elbow, knee and foot, but you can't make a fist with them. I never did much as far as altering the fist. Like the knuckle jabs and such. Phenix eye? I think the dummy offers you the oppertunity to go all out with some of your techniques without worrying about hurting someone in the process, but I also feel that 2 man drills are the only real way to get it down to a science. Once your drills have given you the proper angles and technique, you can then go all out on the dummy. Something that you can not really do with your training partner. I also pad the dummy. No sense in making clubs out of your hands. Today, if I do the dummy, I will do it free style.

[deejaye72]

the first time i saw someone freestyle on the dummy,was paul vunak's wooden dummy tape from panther video( my favorite tape of all his videos) i thought "this is great!" I've since have had great training sessions on it freestlying.I also enjoy the actual form,it has a lot of little nooks and crannies of wing chun concepts and the footworks really good.
I do not belieive in hitting it full blast.What i mean by that statement is, i hit it with my structure. now, i can hit it hard like that, but i dont blatantly slam my arms into the arms and leg of the dummy.When i hit it,the whole dummy moves.Hitting it like a madman does not serve any purpose,its detrimental to your development.
If you want to hit something,a heavybag works just fine,it gives just like hitting someone in the gut........eddie

[anerlich]

IMO you can work movements softly on the dummy while learning sequences, distance. correct positioning, etc., but once you got through that you should be striking it hard enough for it to give you feedback on your positioning, alignment and structure. No real impact, no feedback. I guess I could steal the Dog Brothers' "higher consciousness through harder contact" here (apologies to Dale).

At the same time, mindless full power bashing of the dummy is worthless. You need to be considering correct angles, structure, posture and distancing. Hit it properly, the "recoil" (bad word, but hopefully you know what I mean) is handled by your structure all the way to the floor. If it hurts or you lose balance or position, you have made a mistake.

While you should hit the dummy hard, you also need to respect it, move out of its way or around it when necessary, etc. Like kettlebells, the dummy has right of way.

I agree that padding is good, especially if you want to use fists and other hand formations more suited to softer parts of the human anatomy, of which the dummy has none.

Anyone with half a brain will have worked out you can freestyle on the thing and are not restricted to the formal sequences. The best training tool is always imagination.

I did try a flying armbar once, but the arms are a bit short. :D

[kungfublow]

I think you can hit the dummy as hard as you want. However I think you should still be focused on the timming, distance, forward force and sturcture. If you are just hitting it without these thoughts, I agree it will only hinder your development. If you are hitting hard with these things in mind then I think it can do a great deal for you when you start to transfer all this over to sparring. Getting used to maintaining your structure and control while at full speed and force can help when you start sparring at that same speed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thoughts?

And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.

[Yoshiyahu]

That's all great info thanks. It's nice to have some other sources to consult over and above my sifu.

I also like what you said about using the dummy with both soft force and full force. I would think that would make you more well rounded. I try to do that while I practice but sadly I don't have a dummy at home yet. So my time is limited.

Well practice the Dummy Form in the air. Then go ahead and freestyle in the air and then find a partner to work out drills.



Thoughts?

And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.

Wow I never thought about the butterfly techniques. Please share some of that with me.



I won't get into actually using moves (or sets of moves) from the WD in actual application in this post, other than to say that, yes, there are moves form each section that are fight applicable, imo...and are taught with that in mind by William Cheung.

But for now I want to focus on the rest of sanjuro's post: yeah, after doing the set routine (or sometimes even right in the middle of it)...freestyling on it is not only good - but it's an absolute must, imo.

Because you have to "make it yours", like everything else in WC, or any martial art for that matter. And the more you freestyle (and especially after you've come to understand the meaning of the set routine)...the better you get. Because you start doing things naturally and unconsciously - as this has to be the ultimate goal. One needs to get familiar with the "training/teaching" so intimately that you can perform under fire without thinking much about what you'll do next. It just comes. Including what may not be in the training/teaching/form.

And yeah, I padded my WD some years ago and go full blast power without fear of injuring my hands/elbows, and it has dramatically increased the time I became willing to spend on the WD, since the arms and leg serve to make full blast punching, kicking, knees, elbows, palm strikes, etc. more disciplined - as just going all out full abandon, while it might be good against a heavy bag, for example (which I also use at my school very frequently)...

can be a reckless act in actual sparring/fighting...so having to work your way around the WD arms/legs while still striking very hard adds a lot to the game.

Share some applications of how to use the WC in actual combat?



I learned the WD form a long time ago, but even back then my older brother, one of them, taught me to fight the wooden man free style. I started out by doing SLT on the dummy. Then much later I started learning the dummy form. We would jump on it and bang the tar out of it. I would use an enter technique and start fighting, using different techniques as I went along. I think it makes for a more fluid transition from one move to the next doing that, plus it seems to have opened my options to meet different situations more. Does that even make sense?
I never use anything more than the verticle fist, palm, chop, and the bill gee finger stabs for hand techniques. Of course there is the elbow, knee and foot, but you can't make a fist with them. I never did much as far as altering the fist. Like the knuckle jabs and such. Phenix eye? I think the dummy offers you the oppertunity to go all out with some of your techniques without worrying about hurting someone in the process, but I also feel that 2 man drills are the only real way to get it down to a science. Once your drills have given you the proper angles and technique, you can then go all out on the dummy. Something that you can not really do with your training partner. I also pad the dummy. No sense in making clubs out of your hands. Today, if I do the dummy, I will do it free style.

Well Personally I believe the Phoenix fist and Ginger fist should be conditioned by hitting a wall bag: First with rice, Second with Beans, Third with Sand, Fourth with Gravel, and Fifth with Steel Shots and use plently of Dit Da Jow and do Chi Kung before and after your training.

But the dummy also assist in muscle memory and training to use of power.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The section very early in the WD wherein you pak/da underneath the arm (ie.- armpit) and then move to the side and throw a sidekick - is a very obvious one.

He steps forward with a straight line strike with his weapon

You have a BS in each hand, and the pak is a block on the outside of his weapon while striking into his armpit from underneath with your other BS - followed by a sidekick to his lead leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well practice the Dummy Form in the air. Then go ahead and freestyle in the air and then find a partner to work out drills.




Wow I never thought about the butterfly techniques. Please share some of that with me.




Share some applications of how to use the WC in actual combat?




Well Personally I believe the Phoenix fist and Ginger fist should be conditioned by hitting a wall bag: First with rice, Second with Beans, Third with Sand, Fourth with Gravel, and Fifth with Steel Shots and use plently of Dit Da Jow and do Chi Kung before and after your training.

But the dummy also assist in muscle memory and training to use of power.

Specialty fists require a 2 pronged forging process:
Impact training - At my stage I use my IP bag with shot and I use the hanging shot bag and I used the padded dummy and the HB.
Structural training- simply put, push-ups on your PE fist.

[Yoshiyahu]

Specialty fists require a 2 pronged forging process:
Impact training - At my stage I use my IP bag with shot and I use the hanging shot bag and I used the padded dummy and the HB.
Structural training- simply put, push-ups on your PE fist.

Yes...Very interesting thank you for sharing...Forged those swords.

[dirtyrat]

Thoughts?

And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.

Have you ever read The Great Karate Myth by Nathan Johnson? He has some very interesting and somewhat controversial ideas. I believe you can find a video clip on youtube about The Great Karate Myth.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.

[dirtyrat]

Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.

try this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsXj8NJHSxg&feature=PlayList&p=68325539C131DF61&index=3

[Ultimatewingchun]

Interesting, and now I see where you were going with this. But so as to compare apples-to-apples (ie.- forms that don't use any outside apparatus, like the WD)...

the third wing chun form, Bil Jee, also has a great many moves that were designed mainly for the Butterfly Swords, much more so than for empty hand fighting, imo. For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.

[dirtyrat]

Interesting, and now I see where you were going with this. But so as to compare apples-to-apples (ie.- forms that don't use any outside apparatus, like the WD)...

the third wing chun form, Bil Jee, also has a great many moves that were designed mainly for the Butterfly Swords, much more so than for empty hand fighting, imo. For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.

makes sense to me. i would think that martial arts training back in the days would center around weapons primarily.

[-木叶-]

For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.

Mon sao, or 问手, is actually an empty handed technique with principles behind it.
It is almost the same as 太极's (or 形意 correct me) 问劲.

[deejaye72]

....oh i mean,what came first the man sao or the butterflysword application. there is know telling which came first but,if i was a betting man,i'd lean more towards the weapons influencing the empty hands.before guns weapons training dominated martial arts and,were emphasized first.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.

Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.

[Yoshiyahu]

Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.

So do you believe the Third form was originally a weapons form. I also found that Bart Jam Dao makes a great Snake Hand form. If you modify your hand posistioning to Spear hand and and Knife hand techniques you got a nice open handed form. Kinda like doing snake in Wing Chun. Try the BJD form with out swords but envision your hands are the blades and attack with those instead.

You will see what I mean?

But of course us today will not have the hand conditioning to make it really useful.

[couch]

Mon sao, or 问手, is actually an empty handed technique with principles behind it.
It is almost the same as 太极's (or 形意 correct me) 问劲.

IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

Two things here:
1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

Best,
K

[Yoshiyahu]

In all actuality each empty handed form can be be used to offset your weapons. And each Weapon form can be used to offset your empty hand combat. In some arts they train weapons first. An from training weapons they use how to fight with their hands even with out the weapon. The difference is your fist,knife hand or snake hand or palm is used as the weapon oppose to Look Dim Boon or Bart Jam Dao. But of course not all of the techniques in weapons forms can be used as Snake Fist or Sun Fist. But alot of moves can.

One can derived new forms from the weapon form if you open your mind to the possibilties.

Then make drills, Then use it in chi sau, then use it in sparring.

Same with the wooden man. Some use the wooden man to practice their Dragon Pole or Luk Dim Boon. Some even have a dummy for the Bart Jam Dao. It depends on your ability to make your WC come alive. It comes a point where your WC grows from practice and meditation along with fighting skilled fighters. When that time comes its not merely what your Sifu says. But what you discover. Discovery can be a marvelous thing. But it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. it just depends on if it works? If you can make your discovery work in fighting a resisting opponent. Who can say otherwise. Remember WC curriculm is the training wills. But once you learn how to ride a bike with out training wills and master the basic principals you can begin to create and freestyle. This is the reason why peoples WC morphs or alters as decades proceed. New Insight and Discoveries shape their WC into something different than what they Sifu has given them. The sifu gives you training wills. But you may not ride your bike the say way as he does. Each indiviual as their own creativity.

Don't be bounded. WC is a system. It is not bound but alive.


IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

Two things here:
1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

Best,
K

[sanjuro_ronin]

So do you believe the Third form was originally a weapons form. I also found that Bart Jam Dao makes a great Snake Hand form. If you modify your hand posistioning to Spear hand and and Knife hand techniques you got a nice open handed form. Kinda like doing snake in Wing Chun. Try the BJD form with out swords but envision your hands are the blades and attack with those instead.

You will see what I mean?

But of course us today will not have the hand conditioning to make it really useful.

I was speaking of karate.

BUT, in regdars to taking a armed form and making it an empty handed form:
Lets look at the FMA, they are reknown for their stick and blade work and they base their hands on those weapons, I ask this:
Are they reknown for their unarmed fighting?
Nope.
Cutting with a blade and hitting with a stick si NOT the same as striking with empty hands, it shoudl be so commons sense that its not an issue.
Fact is that it is easier and more probably more effective taking empty hand moves and adding a blade or stick than vice-versa.

[chusauli]

Biu Jee is for recovery - not a weapons form. It is for regaining or breaking the centerline when you are in a bad position.

The way TWC teaches the Chum Kiu and Biu Jee sets (and ASLT) is taught is like Hung Jong. You are taught the steps and movement with the hand movement, rather than developing or shifting from the root like in the other Yip Man WCK systems. So for TWC people to consider Biu Jee a weapon set is not far off.

Both approaches have their benefits.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree about recovery being a big theme within bil jee. But like Robert said, in TWC (and I would argue even within VT, for example)...there are bil jee & WD moves that make more sense as BS based application than as empty hand; or at the very least, more practical as such.

For example, there was a section that I learned waay back in the day from Moy Yat in his BS form that was a pure mon sao moving forward into the opponent's space. (And the same exact move exists within the TWC bil jee form)...Interestingly enough, when Dan Inosanto visited the Moy Yat NYC school (during the very brief time that he spent as Moy Yat's student)...

he commented that within the concepts behind Fillipino weapons arts, this kind of move I just described (mon do) was a very hard attack to stop, precisely because the sword attack was coming from underneath, making the angle and the direction of the energy used very difficult to deal with.

[JPinAZ]

IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

Two things here:
1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

Best,
K

Great post!

[dirtyrat]

Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.

I just find it interesting that in the video I posted earlier, the movements/techniques of the uechi-ryu sanchin version when view from an unarmed fighting perspective doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

When it is performed with the sai, the movements finally made sense. I think there is some truth to Nathan Johnson's ideas and should not be dismiss so lightly. Granted, we'll probably never truly know what the original purpose of this kata and others.

[Yoshiyahu]

I know very little about Karate...So i cant comment on that...

Yes, I see your point concerning FMA. But what about someone who has a strong foundation in empty hand combat and then learns FMA weapons. Would it be safe to say that a person with hand technique experience would be able to convert the weapons forms to empty hand forms oppose to someone who only know FMA weapons?




I was speaking of karate.

BUT, in regdars to taking a armed form and making it an empty handed form:
Lets look at the FMA, they are reknown for their stick and blade work and they base their hands on those weapons, I ask this:
Are they reknown for their unarmed fighting?
Nope.
Cutting with a blade and hitting with a stick si NOT the same as striking with empty hands, it shoudl be so commons sense that its not an issue.
Fact is that it is easier and more probably more effective taking empty hand moves and adding a blade or stick than vice-versa.

[-木叶-]

the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward)

Yes, this is correct.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes, this is correct.

All techniques interelate and can be utilize in many different applications.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

All techniques interelate and can be utilize in many different applications.

like? i would like to see YOU personally doing the techniques. if you need a digital camera im willing to start a fund to get you one.

[Yoshiyahu]

like? i would like to see YOU personally doing the techniques. if you need a digital camera im willing to start a fund to get you one.

ooh well hey...lets get that ole fund started...

Video Camera for Yoshiyahu...

any donations?