Baguazhang Fighting Stepping

[dimethylsea]

I made this clip for a silat friend who makes instructional DVDs for that art and thought I'd share it with y'all. We both love silat's sapu and beset footwork ! Kou bu and Bai Bu stepping usually comes into those conversations when I'm talking to him about reaping, tripping, sweeping, kicking and stomping. The bagua classics say "every step is a kick, every kick is a step". Kick=reaping, tripping, sweeping, kicking and stomping!

I apologize for the background noise, we like to play music at the studio and I'm not a professional at making videos.

Hopefully it will be informative and useful to baguazhang people's practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5-95vahRc4

[KTS]

pretty nice basic tutorial on the basic fundamental moving pattern of baguazhang. not really much i would add to it as being a fundamental demonstration of it's basic uses. i liked that you variated the kou bu and bai bu slightly each time well constantly instilling the fact that you, throughout the whole vid, were only using these two basic yet most necessary fundamental steps of bagua.

maybe i would have added the step-down type of kick to the shin as a percursor movement to a foot stomp or pin. and maybe i would just throw in the basic single palm change with it, since the footwork and hand work flow together so smoothly.


overall, i think it was a nice video that introduces the basic uses of the hook step and swing step. so, nice vid. i liked it.

[Bob Ashmore]

I've not seen very much Baguazhang outside of what I can find on youtube. I was surprised to see how similar this stepping is to what we do in TCC.
I like how simple yet effective this method is.
I forwarded this to all of my fellow TCC practicioners in my group, they all seem to like it as much as I do.
I'm going to have to learn more about Bagua now...

Thanks.

[brucereiter]

I made this clip for a silat friend who makes instructional DVDs for that art and thought I'd share it with y'all. We both love silat's sapu and beset footwork ! Kou bu and Bai Bu stepping usually comes into those conversations when I'm talking to him about reaping, tripping, sweeping, kicking and stomping. The bagua classics say "every step is a kick, every kick is a step". Kick=reaping, tripping, sweeping, kicking and stomping!

I apologize for the background noise, we like to play music at the studio and I'm not a professional at making videos.

Hopefully it will be informative and useful to baguazhang people's practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5-95vahRc4

why dont you just say "inside step" "outside step"? why mix english and chinese when you are trying to show something to none chinese speaking people?

[KTS]

bob, if you like taiji you definitely would enjoy bagua. i have experience in both and a number of skills crossover.

bagua, yeah, it is basically simple, but it gets progressively more infinite. but, like it has been said, the hooking step, swinging step, and single palm are are basically the foundation of everything in bagua.

so you could get a tremendous amount of knowledge and things to work on based off one simple practice - the line or circle version of SPC.

it is worth checking out at least. and u would probably love the moving step pushing hand practices.

[jack]

Hi Dimethylsea

Nice clip. Do you learn wrestling?

Ze Zong School of Guanghua Gao Style Bagua Zhang, branched out from Cheng style Bagua Zhang (程式八卦掌). The founder was a wrestler before he learned Bagua Zhang.

I can see the wrestling skills part in the Ze Zong School of Guanghua Gao Style Bagua Zhang in this clip.

[dimethylsea]

why dont you just say "inside step" "outside step"? why mix english and chinese when you are trying to show something to none chinese speaking people?


Actually my silat friend wanted to know how to pronounce the words properly. He's no linguist (nor am I) and so I repeated it over and over so he could catch how to say it.

Honestly.. I don't think of them as "inside step" and "outside step"... it's kou bu and bai bu. An "outside step" or "inside step" is my mental tag for a forward step that goes either outside and past their front foot or inside and past it. Kou and Bai are usually called hook step and swing step in English.

"Kou" and "bai" are two of the five elements for the feet in Gao style right? And it expresses the He and Kai principles of Gao.

Taijiquan has this principle of closing/He and opening/Kai also. And while I'm not exposed enough to Taiji to say anything with authority it seems like a good Taiji person would have to balance and harmonize the hand methods and the foot methods. Hands opening and closing is all over Taiji. Why shouldn't the feet coil and silk-reel also? I'm not saying what is or isn't Taiji (not qualified).. but I would expect closing and opening the feet and hips in attack to be very Taiji.

Bob Ashmore,

Wu Mengxia, one of Gao's best students, also was a grandstudent of Yang Banhou. Wu said in his
Annotations on Taijiquan's Nine Songs and 81 Postures..

ti xi shang da zhi ming chu,xia xiang er zhu nan liu ching
"Lift the knee upwards to hit the dwelling of life and downward to assault the two feet without mercy"

I'd like to learn Wu's Yang Taiji someday myself. I'm sure it's as wicked cool as his bagua.

[brucereiter]

Actually my silat friend wanted to know how to pronounce the words properly. He's no linguist (nor am I) and so I repeated it over and over so he could catch how to say it.

Honestly.. I don't think of them as "inside step" and "outside step"... it's kou bu and bai bu. An "outside step" or "inside step" is my mental tag for a forward step that goes either outside and past their front foot or inside and past it. Kou and Bai are usually called hook step and swing step in English.

"Kou" and "bai" are two of the five elements for the feet in Gao style right? And it expresses the He and Kai principles of Gao.

Taijiquan has this principle of closing/He and opening/Kai also. And while I'm not exposed enough to Taiji to say anything with authority it seems like a good Taiji person would have to balance and harmonize the hand methods and the foot methods. Hands opening and closing is all over Taiji. Why shouldn't the feet coil and silk-reel also? I'm not saying what is or isn't Taiji (not qualified).. but I would expect closing and opening the feet and hips in attack to be very Taiji.


thanks for the response. keep on training ...

[Snake77]

Nice Vid! Trapping,sweeping,pinning,uprooting,breaking,knees and kicks...YES!! Toe in, Toe out can also give you some very good angles and openings on opponent.:)

[Bob Ashmore]

dimethylsea,
Unfortunately there are no Baguazhang teachers in my area, so I'll have to stick with my old trusty TCC for the time being.
My fellow students and I were all surprised at how similar to many of the steps we make during out training are to the kou bu and bai bu on your clip. The steps happen in a nearly identical way all through our form. We have many more steps, but these are some that happen again and again throughout our long form.
I have recently begun to train moving step push hands again in our TCC system after not having done so for about fifteen years and it feels good. I'd love to learn the Bagua moving steps, but again no teacher locally.

I learned Wu style TCC from Eddie Wu, that lineage is a Yang Banhou lineage and it was really quite fun.
I certainly didn't learn that system well and have not practiced it for a long time now, but I did enjoy my time learning it.
For now I'll stick with Yang family TCC as I have two of the best teachers in the world available to me here locally. If I ever find a good teacher of Bagua or Xingyi, you can bet I'll queue up for classes!

[Ars vitae]

Very nice video's and clear explanations of what is happening. Words themselves can act as both the symbol and the symbolism, together giving more than just a mere noun or verb. I used to play with a little tai chi and can appreciate that the most effective techniques themselves aren't necessary the large movements, but the simple opening and closing of gates along a structures line. What is effective in one art, you will see the simiar structure in another.

[mawali]

Even though I learned and did tang nibu (mud walking step) as part of stepping, I no longer use it because it has no utility! If one is sloppy and can be easily thrown then I would recommed it as an antidote to being tripped by an opponent before throwing. Supposedly an original system of bapanzhang ran the circle instead of walking it!

[dimethylsea]

Even though I learned and did tang nibu (mud walking step) as part of stepping, I no longer use it because it has no utility! If one is sloppy and can be easily thrown then I would recommed it as an antidote to being tripped by an opponent before throwing. Supposedly an original system of bapanzhang ran the circle instead of walking it!

I think the point of all the various stepping practices is be very aware of your feet. That's solid advice from just about anybody's perspective.

If you have a traditional method you just work it.. and see what happens. Sometimes a method that gives ever-unpredictable results is just the thing you want in your training.

[KTS]

^that was exactly one of the things i thought of!

"mud stepping" is a very sneaky way of advancing if used since you dont bob up and down - it makes it appear harder to guage how far away you are, just to mention one aspect of it.

mud stepping is also a good exercise that can stretch and strengthen the lower legs. and, any stepping patterns or stepping training where the back heel remains in contact with the ground while advancing help to soften up the lower legs.

really, there is no such thing as a "useless" exercise in martial arts practice. especially those that have withstood the criticism of a few generations or more. they are not still taught without reason.

[woliveri]

Ok, I'm going to go against the flow here and say I'm not so sure I like the Bai bu in this clip.

In our style, Bai bu moves straight. Moving straight forces (or requires) articulation at the waist. To turn the inside step in like it is breaks that formation. In addition, turning the foot out like that is not using the Kua and is setting up for injury. Feet/Knee/Leg should not move more than 10 % from a direct forward alignment in my opinion to keep from injury. Move on the Kua, not the knee/foot jonts.

[dimethylsea]

Ok, I'm going to go against the flow here and say I'm not so sure I like the Bai bu in this clip.

In our style, Bai bu moves straight. Moving straight forces (or requires) articulation at the waist. To turn the inside step in like it is breaks that formation. In addition, turning the foot out like that is not using the Kua and is setting up for injury. Feet/Knee/Leg should not move more than 10 % from a direct forward alignment in my opinion to keep from injury. Move on the Kua, not the knee/foot jonts.

Woliveri,

Any chance you could point to a clip that demonstrates the movement strictures you are referring to? I don't want to inadvertently misunderstand you...


Brian

[woliveri]

Woliveri,

Any chance you could point to a clip that demonstrates the movement strictures you are referring to? I don't want to inadvertently misunderstand you...


Brian

Hey Brian,

No clips but some pics..

http://www.baguazhang.it/IMG/ALBUMS/8/multimediaITA.htm

This is one of the senior Masters in our system (not my teacher).

[woliveri]

Here's a clip on youtube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10uDXPApg-8

[woliveri]

I should also say this is what we "strive" to do. Even my teacher turns his inside foot in. Correct circle walking, for our style, is very difficult to maintain throughout a form or practice.

[dimethylsea]

Woliveri,

First off let me say.. with respect to Mr. Zhang Dugan's clip... OUT-FRIGGIN-STANDING. That is a man who has really put in the time and work. I've seldom seen such a good free-form clip.. actually I don't think I've ever seen a bagua free-flow clip that good on public bandwidth. Gong Bao Tien's descendants really have some good stuff!

A few questions...
1. Should not the hand harmonize with the foot?
2. Should not each moment possess either He (closing) or Kai (opening)? Should not the Kai and He be powerful?
3. When opening and closing should not all seven stars work in unison? (We say Gu Qi Xing 顾七星 - Take care of the 7 stars)

This means that in order to open very powerfully one must either open wide.. or one must have been closed very tightly (if the bai bu never opens beyond straight ahead).
This sort of tight closing He is difficult but I don't think it would be a problem for the sort of practioner that can give the sort of performance in your youtube clip.

I suspect that this difference in style strictures may be a product of training ideologies. Gao usually prefers to train big moves to find the power, then shrink and chain them. Perhaps (and I don't train your line's method so this is just a wild guess) your style is looking for the power in a tighter close-down right from the beginning?

[KTS]

ahh, i see what the discussion here is about.


a bigger cricle , the inside foot can glide straight while the outside foot constantly turns in. yeah, that was one basic way i was taught. walking it this way is basically your moving pi chuan stance.

but, this is one way of walking. i have never been told, by anyone from the gao system that i know(the other gao), that there is only one way to walk the circle.

anyways, i spend most of my time in xing yi so i dont major in BGZ.

and yeah, that was a very good clip that was made. that kind of flow from one thing to the next is very prominent in BGZ.

[dimethylsea]

but, this is one way of walking. i have never been told, by anyone from the gao system that i know(the other gao), that there is only one way to walk the circle.

.

I could be mistaken but it seems like each lineage of Gao has their own "favorite" way to walk the circle. The folks from the Yi Zhong lineage (Zhang Junfeng) do what is called "chicken step".. which is much like xingyi's chicken step. ZeZhong lineage (Wu Mengxia) prefers what is called He Bu ("crane" step).. which is not a high step like one might think.. but rather a very long heel grinding step with the toe up.
But as far as "one true way"? I wouldn't like to say that... I know my teacher favors the way he has gotten from his shiye. It's Wu Mengxia's way. But it's not "THE" way...

As far as I know there are lots of ways to walk the circle, you just have to pick one from a traditional source that will correct you and learn it form the ground up. Mixing and matching as a newb (which I certainly consider myself) is going to be troublesome.

[KTS]

zhang junfeng gao bagua lineage - is what i have been taught through my teacher(a student of hung i-hsiang), and also through visits with luo dexiu and su dong chen.

we use the mud stepping(mostly) as well. the chicken step, where the back foot comes up to the front's instep in a parallel movement and "rests" before advancing, is also favored.

for any readers who are not familiar, mud stepping is a very graceful, yet sneaky kind of stepping. i can see how it would be hard for beginners to interpret or get it quite right. it is a bit tricky at first. you have to have your front foot lightly touch down, then slide it forward about 20% of your stepping distance while keeping the back leg rooted without raising the heel. then you would shift forward while bringing the back foot, always keeping it close to the floor and parallel, to the instep of the front foot and repeating.

it is simply awesome to gain awareness and control in your lower legs and your movement. when you keep your back heel to the ground, that actually works to strengthen and also loosen your lower legs; ankle and calf area.

crane stepping, i haven't seen this emphasized much yet in our gao bagua, so i cannot speak on it.

i am far from an expert in bagua, even though the fighting strategies and rhythms feels sooo natural to me. of all the arts i have studied, 5 in total, bagua has the best focus on slick stepping.

[KTS]

i forgot to mention that zhang junfeng's xingyi and bagua are intermingled. in the curriculum that luo teaches, i believe, he teaches the 5 main fists of xingyi within his bagua curriculum. and the xingyi that hung i-hsiang taught has a bit of a bagua body method to it. so, naturally, they are taught together. the 64 linear palms of gao bagua are very similar to xingyi forms. so, yeah, some of the same stepping is used. and they all seem to begin with pi chuan as well. i missed many of the classes where my teacher taught the 64 palms though, so i will have a better understanding when i can review them with him.

the book about the 64 straight lines by pittman is fairly accurate afaik. there do seem to be slight variations though depending on who it is learned from. but allen's book seems to be an accurate and excellent resource to help remember the movements and "houses" that he divides them into.

[KTS]

As far as I know there are lots of ways to walk the circle, you just have to pick one from a traditional source that will correct you and learn it form the ground up. Mixing and matching as a newb (which I certainly consider myself) is going to be troublesome

well, i do imagine that the stepping methods slightly differ based upon the system. however, i would say that they also vary depending on the level and intent.

example, in the gao system of doing smoothe body snake palm, you can first learn it on a line. then transfer it to the circle. then, even after you transer it to the circle, instead of a kuo bu, bai bu, and back to kuo bu as you change, you can actually use your momentum to spin around instead of statically using a rigid stepping method.

the spin actually looks more fluid in performance.

ask your teacher. i would be interested to hear how your system is built up in this regard since i consider myself nothing more than a beginner as well - i devoted more time to xingyi.

[woliveri]

Woliveri,

First off let me say.. with respect to Mr. Zhang Dugan's clip... OUT-FRIGGIN-STANDING. That is a man who has really put in the time and work. I've seldom seen such a good free-form clip.. actually I don't think I've ever seen a bagua free-flow clip that good on public bandwidth. Gong Bao Tien's descendants really have some good stuff!

A few questions...
1. Should not the hand harmonize with the foot?
2. Should not each moment possess either He (closing) or Kai (opening)? Should not the Kai and He be powerful?
3. When opening and closing should not all seven stars work in unison? (We say Gu Qi Xing 顾七星 - Take care of the 7 stars)

This means that in order to open very powerfully one must either open wide.. or one must have been closed very tightly (if the bai bu never opens beyond straight ahead).
This sort of tight closing He is difficult but I don't think it would be a problem for the sort of practioner that can give the sort of performance in your youtube clip.

I suspect that this difference in style strictures may be a product of training ideologies. Gao usually prefers to train big moves to find the power, then shrink and chain them. Perhaps (and I don't train your line's method so this is just a wild guess) your style is looking for the power in a tighter close-down right from the beginning?


Hey Brian, you have me at a disadvantage regarding techical terminology and theory as referenced in your above quote. What I can say is our system, as taught by my teacher, is mostly "closed". By closed I mean the center line is always protected by palms/arms "sticking" together with the "turtle back" and I can't remember once my teacher throwing someone to the ground as a taught technique we'd use. Rather, we would apply palm, elbow, shoulder strikes or some type of jin.

hmm.. . here's a clip of my teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvU-pfVH5TQ

Not sure that answers your question though. Perhaps we can say our systems and approaches are different.

I do enjoy, though, the extensive writing your system has on it's website. Very nice.

Best,

Bill

[dimethylsea]

ask your teacher. i would be interested to hear how your system is built up in this regard since i consider myself nothing more than a beginner as well - i devoted more time to xingyi.

Actually this is an area where even the various lineages of Gao seem to differ a good deal. I have trained with a teacher who was a foreign student of Mr. Luo Dexiu so I have a bit of a sense how that line trains. Your description is pretty similar to my experience.

In ZeZong/Wu-Mengxia line Gao the circle walking stepping is pretty much done "one way". For us beginners we are given a list of eight powers/principles/strengths that we must develop and focus on (the Ba Gang). Three of those (deng, tang, and cai) deal with the legs. The combination of the deng (pushoff from the back), tang (plowing with the front heal) and cai (trampling or stomping on the switch/transition) make up the "He Bu" or "Crane Step". It's not high though.. it's long and low. But unlike normal mud-stepping the foot is not level and the toe is not down.

With respect to stepping ZeZong also has a twist called Five Elements / Eight Diagrams i.e. there are Five Elements and Eight Trigrams for the feet or flat basin.
The Five Elements are 扣 kou, 摆 bai, 挤 ji, 夺 duo and 趟 tang. Kou and Bai are what the video at the top of the thread are. Ji is kinda like forward pressure etc.
There are also Eight Trigrams for the feet... 进 jin, 退 tui, 凑 cou, 垫 dian, 偷 tou,
过 guo, 纵 zong and 箭 jian. All these are types of footwork found in the xiantien and houtien sets.

So yes there are many types of stepping, even within single lines, but there is usually one sort of stepping used in circle walking that is preferred to build the "signature body method" of that bagua lineage. For us it's He Bu (deng/tang/cai).

[KTS]

ahh, that is pretty interesting. i should gotta go back to my copy of the pakua journal and reread some sections on your branch.

thanks.

[dimethylsea]

Hey Brian, you have me at a disadvantage regarding techical terminology and theory as referenced in your above quote.
I do enjoy, though, the extensive writing your system has on it's website. Very nice.

Haha.. that's my teacher's fault. He has this big worry he won't teach it "organized enough" so we wind up with most of our notes in e-format. It's very systematic that way. Not as much guesswork compared to my first bagua teacher.



What I can say is our system, as taught by my teacher, is mostly "closed". By closed I mean the center line is always protected by palms/arms "sticking" together with the "turtle back" and I can't remember once my teacher throwing someone to the ground as a taught technique we'd use. Rather, we would apply palm, elbow, shoulder strikes or some type of jin.

This seems very reasonable. Alot of the Yin Fu lines are very closed.. they have that "snake" character. "Small dragon" if you will.. is the sort of broad category of flavor the Gong Bao Tien lines sometimes show.



hmm.. . here's a clip of my teacher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvU-pfVH5TQ

Not sure that answers your question though. Perhaps we can say our systems and approaches are different.



Yeah.. Nice clip. He has a very clear idea of what can be done if you can thread the opponents arms in between your two "closed centerline arms". I like the clear foot power of the body wave around 0:30. When I see a teacher fundamentally rooting workable maneuvers like the "elbow roll over" in a body wave that I can see starting in the shins and knees.. that's good stuff.
You have a good teacher (though you probably know it) but there are three things a good-hearted martial artist will see in this clip that says so...

1. Your teacher is focusing on application that is root movement.. not a "form application" but just a very basic posture applied. This is a good sign.
2. Your teacher is laughing the whole time and is genuinely enjoying himself. This is also a good sign..
3. You teacher has his student do it TO him.. and is still chuckling. This is the best sign.

Laughter, sweat, and lots of basics! Good to see!


Here is a clip of some similar "closed centerline" style apps you might find familiar on the upper line (not the lower leg line though).. this bagua has some "Snake" flavor in it but from a non-Chinese source (cimande ular silat). I made it for a friend who showed me the "snake mannerisms" from his cimande.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEgvPRkSEYg

[woliveri]

Ah yes, that's nice.. Snake is very similar to Mantis in many ways.

Cool stuff.

[KTS]

snake similar to mantis? we mean shaolin here, yeah?

from what i have seen, much of the shaolin animals bear a great resemblence in basic technique.

dimeth...

yeah, that is along the same lineage u spoke of with Luo btw. my eacher trained with hung and his senior students. he started training, i think, a year or 2 before luo did.

but luo also trained with many others. i am not sure all of whom my teach trained with, i know he did white crane some some taiji back then(1960's-70's taiwan.)

but, since my teach and luo and basically classmates in a sense, if not literally, i have met luo and one of the other more famous students now teaching such as su dong chen(love this guy!)

my teach, focused more on xingyi for the bulk of his first 2.5 or 3 years with hung. so that is what i focus on. but, bagua is simply awesome when done right. being thrown first hand by luo in one way, then the next, and having been thrown, elbowed, smacked, etc gives me easily a great impression of how a bagua infighting works well, not to even mention getting to the part where you can get slammed to the floor or thrown 7 feet backwards like a gust of wind just picked your @ss up. and i am no ragdoll if i say so myself.

perhaps, in the next year or so i will focus on bagua more. i have a few xingyi animal forms to complete and maybe another 2 person fighting set to work with. and at least one weapon form.

combine those with my chen hunyuan taiji and being back into college, i am a busy guy!

[dimethylsea]

snake similar to mantis? we mean shaolin here, yeah?

from what i have seen, much of the shaolin animals bear a great resemblence in basic technique.



Just for the record bro.. that clip was of me mixing CIMANDE ULAR (snake flavor cimande) pentjak silat (indonesian martial arts) on top of my usual bagua base. Nothing to do with Shaolin.. though I can see (in retrospect) that it might look kinda like mantis.
But the only snake I know anything about is the Ular/snake style in pencak silat and the snake aspect of Gao bagua (f.i. in our branch of Gao the whole houtien is called 后天蛇形缠连掌 or snake winding).



perhaps, in the next year or so i will focus on bagua more. i have a few xingyi animal forms to complete and maybe another 2 person fighting set to work with. and at least one weapon form.

combine those with my chen hunyuan taiji and being back into college, i am a busy guy!

Dude.. you work with the best you can when you can as much as you can. And life gets in the way :D

It's like that old saying
"Well darling you.. and me.. and baby makes....

... life an endless stream of compromises!".

There is alot of stuff that ZeZong line has that is... well it's not that it's stuff "only" we have.. so much as it's stuff other Gao lines have in their manuals but don't seem to focus on.. even though it's very much "low-hanging fruit" and very helpful to me.

So alot of me talking up my branch is to try and get the young guys in other Gao lines to look at their own internal lore and be like "oh yeah.. when did people stop thinking this was important?"

One of the great strengths of Gao bagua is that it is, *fundamentally* a LITERATE tradition of bagua. That's critical to my way of thinking.

[dimethylsea]

snake similar to mantis? we mean shaolin here, yeah?

from what i have seen, much of the shaolin animals bear a great resemblence in basic technique.



Just for the record bro.. that clip was of me mixing CIMANDE ULAR (snake flavor cimande) pentjak silat (indonesian martial arts) on top of my usual bagua base. Nothing to do with Shaolin.. though I can see (in retrospect) that it might look kinda like mantis.
But the only snake I know anything about is the Ular/snake style in pencak silat and the snake aspect of Gao bagua (f.i. in our branch of Gao the whole houtien is called 后天蛇形缠连掌 or snake winding).



perhaps, in the next year or so i will focus on bagua more. i have a few xingyi animal forms to complete and maybe another 2 person fighting set to work with. and at least one weapon form.

combine those with my chen hunyuan taiji and being back into college, i am a busy guy!

Dude.. you work with the best you can when you can as much as you can. And life gets in the way :D

It's like that old saying
"Well darling you.. and me.. and baby makes....

... life an endless stream of compromises!".

There is alot of stuff that ZeZong line has that is... well it's not that it's stuff "only" we have.. so much as it's stuff other Gao lines have in their manuals but don't seem to focus on.. even though it's very much "low-hanging fruit" and very helpful to me.

So alot of me talking up Gao is to try and get the other young guys in other Gao lines to look at their own internal lore and be like "oh yeah.. when did people stop thinking this was important?"

[woliveri]

I did mantis many years ago. Mantis and Snake are similar in appearances with the exception of the hand (snake = finger strikes, mantis = also finger but more towards pressure points and also the grabbing/trapping of the mantis hand).

Anyway, from the clip it looked similar to how mantis would move and attack..

that's all.

[KTS]

haha. yeah man, time and business can get in the way a lot! very annoying when u just wanna spend a whole day practicing!

and i have to travel to learn! so it is almost work to get a class in without being busy! but, a note to any of you beginners or prospective students: if learning with the best in your "area" means traveling 50 or 100 miles every week or two, do it! it is vastly superior to learning from a person who knows half as much but is 10 times closer.

anyways,

even so, i feel fortunate to be able to have had the experience to see not only different sides/point of views of different higher level teachers, but also be able to experience them and get the "feel" of how each person has took the same relative teachings and interpretated or personalized them. it gives a great perspective and helps you find your own place and tempo in the system one is learning.


so Dimethylsea, can u recommend some clips of that indonesian style you know? anything on youtube you wanna send me i would appreciate? i know a little bit of the art, but never had any hands on work with it and would love to see the work of any skilled artists at it if you dont mind.

my lineages, easy to search for su dong chen, hong yixiang, luo dexiu, brinkman, cartmell, etc; chen zhonghua, feng zhiqiang - his daughters as well.

[dimethylsea]

so Dimethylsea, can u recommend some clips of that indonesian style you know? anything on youtube you wanna send me i would appreciate? i know a little bit of the art, but never had any hands on work with it and would love to see the work of any skilled artists at it if you dont mind.

Hands down the best silat man putting lots of clips up on youtube is Bobbe Edmonds (IMO).

Since we are talking about footwork here are two of his clips on the same.. There are profound similarities in good bagua and good silat when it comes to attacking the legs with the legs...

Elements of Sapu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYjWjKeT7s
Foot Trapping and Lowline Entires http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQx2VZ5wbBU

On Bobbe's "Elements of Sapu" he clearly demonstrates the first three of what Gao style calls the "Five Elements for the Flat Basin" (i.e. Kou, Bai, and Jie).
You usually don't see silat styles do the Duo or Tang (the other two of the five elements for the flat basin).

Keep in mind Bobbe is VERY good. Trained with alot of names, both in North America and in Indonesia.

[KTS]

nice! :D

very good vids man! a lot of it definitely remind me of bagua. from change opponents body position by moving the arm across, the kuo and bai footworks, and the fluidity of change in both the opponents direction of movement and the technique to be used.

it is definitely great that more people are experiencing arts like these.

btw, i must have seen that guy before on some videos. very skillful. i can tell.

[dimethylsea]

btw, i must have seen that guy before on some videos. very skillful. i can tell.

Yeah pretty much all his stuff on youtube is top notch. If I'm as good at bagua as Bobbe is at silat by the time I'm his age I will count myself very very fortunate.

I particularly like the way (as you mentioned) he pulls/turns the target's arm off the leg line while executing the foot technique. It's a little bit many people miss.. but it's a bagua staple.

Get offline, get to their flank, turn them off/split their center line so the hand and foot do not harmonize/coordinate, and attack the feet. All at once.

One thing Laoshi emphasizes alot is the yao shou/asking hand, followed by the zhua/grab to whatever they threw up to block the "asking hand". If you coordinate it well with the stepping it makes the "Get offline... all at once" formular above exceedingly smooth.

Just very simple basics.. but "low-hanging fruit" is just as tasty and nutritious as the stuff at the top of the fruit tree. And alot more accessible to people at my own modest level.

[3DeeMonk]

Hello, this site might come of good use and lead to good avenues for beginners and even professionals.

www.baguakungfu.com

There are some explanations of Bagua at this site. I train with the disciple of He Jinbao and oh my....what a prelude of enlightenment.

The 8 animals are explained pretty well too, not to mention the awesome art work.

I hope this will come of use to the bagua enthusiast. There should be application demos coming soon!


Take best of care and by all means.....Enter the Circle.

3DeeMonk