8 step forms

[grifter721]

Does 8 step have STOMPING STEPS aka Bung Bo in their syllabus?
What do 8 step forms look like? Are they just as aggressive as Seven star?
Ie are you constantly pressuring your opponent, charging forward etc.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Although stomping or rooting is in all of our sets they are somewhat different then seven star's, placing more empahsis on the footwork and a tad more angular. And yes they all force our opponent to retreat, that is a stong aspect of any praying mantis style.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[grifter721]

Although I beleive you that 8 steep is highly agressive I have seen some praying mantis styles that are not as aggressive, such as plum flower mantis. Then again I only saw one of thier forms and a few of their techniques....
How many forms in the 8 step system anyway?

[EARTH DRAGON]

You are right in saying 8 step is the most aggressive but all mantis makes their oponent retreat, or at least takes their balance away and never lets them regain it, which I think is the same thing. Even in shinny board or tai mantis its still an aggressive type style.....8 step has 23 forms however only ten are taught to the higher level students and 5 to the general public......

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kiasyd]

Why do you say that the 8 step system is the most aggressive of all the praying mantis systems? I mean, how do you compare the "agressiveness" of those systems?

I'm curious because I don't know nothing about the diferences of the various systems, I just know a little about the style that I train.

[KickingMantis]

EarthDragon,

Just curious, you said ten of the 23 sets are taught to the advanced students and five are taught to the genera public, so who knows the other 13 sets of the 8 step system?

So what u are saying is that the advanced students know a maximum of 15 sets?

I actually think that is a good number of sets to know, its not to say it is too amny or too little, just depends on your schools' or associations vision and viewpoint.

I'm wonder though do people ever get to know the other 13 sets?

Sounds like a set up soon to happen for a loss of a great deal of one's system.

"The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
"If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

[grifter721]

I do beleive that 8 step is aggressive but in no way did I mean that it is the most aggressive.
That is out for debate. When you look at Mantis from Won hun Fun lineage you see that Won Hun was a nasty fighter. He made changes to a system when he was only in his 20's and to know that Low Kwon Yu gave him the responsibilty at such an early age to teach in macua shwo you that he knew what the heck he wasdoing.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Ok Ok I dont want to start a your style is better than my style agrgument, I just mean or should have said that compared to the 4 or 5 stlyes of mantis i've seen, 8 step has been the most agressive.Let me rephrase that. As for the sets, I beleive their is a handful of masters in the stlye that know all 23 but I dont know for sure. The advanced student learns only the first 10 not 15 as you asked.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[KickingMantis]

Are we sure that WHF made changes to the Mantis he learned from LGY when he was 20?

How do we not know it was at a later age when he became mre seasoned in his art and fully mastered and understood it?

"The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
"If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

[Kiasyd]

... about these changes that Won Hon Fun made... Anyone knows what these changes are?

-- Kiasyd

[yingching]

Does this 10 forms include the 2 man sets and weapons? Are there any 2 man weapon sets in 8 step?

[Tainan Mantis]

Won Hon Fun(Huang Han Hsun) explained the changes he made in at least 2 of his books.
1.In his book,"Tiger Tail 3 sectional Staff." The very last move where he closes the weapon and puts it at his side he says is his addition.
2.In his book,"Praying Mantis Chuen Shu Chan Mi."
He talks about the various names of the techniques and the problem he had in standardizing them. He then gives several examples of how the exact same moves in different forms have different names.
Here is where it gets interesting. In the forms Spear Hand(Cha Chuei) and 18 Elders(Shr Ba So) is a technique called Fan Che (This is the left uppercut). The same hand technique is in the second section of the original Mantis form Bung Bu. Here the technique was called Bung Bu so the name of this form-Bung Bu-is named after this technique-Bung Bu.
But the story doesn't end here. In the Taiji Mantis version of the form Bung Bu this move doesn't exist. The characters they use for the name of the form Bung Bu sound the same but have a different meaning.
What we need is for someone to come forth with an ancient text to shed light on these changes.Does anyone know where these documents are?

[samurai]

Where can I get copies of Won Hun Fun's books? Are they availible in an English translation?
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

[KickingMantis]

Tainan,

Do we know when WHF made these changes? Were they made at the age of twebty years old?, I assuming they were not. I am assuming all of these books were written when he was well over twenty years old. Its obvious you can tell that by the photos in the books.

Im sure the changes that WHF made to the mantis he learned were made after he enveloped the system and made it part of who he is and his flavor. Just as I am sure the mantis that LGY taught in Northern China was much different than what was taught through the years in Hong Kong.

Over time people develop and make things part of who they are and what works for them. Im sure other styles had a great influence on Hong Kong Mantis at the Jing Mo.

There are individuals in the martial arts community that have original versions of these manuals, but no they are not in English they are in chinese. And they are said to be a collectors item among seven star people.

Others are currently involved in projects where these manuals are to be translated and made available to the mantis community. It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

"The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end."
"If You can't be honest nothing can happen."

[Kiasyd]

Very interesting all this info...

Since you said that in the TaiChi Mantis version of Bung Bo the Fan Che move does not exist, I remembered that I saw some time ago a video on the internet showing a performance of the Bung Bo form where there is a high leap with a kick just after the "White Snake spits out its tongue" move, and that doesn't exist in our school. Do you know what system uses this?

-- Kiasyd

[mantis108]

I can't find the older documentation but I have a recently published Mantis forms book by Brilliant Publication Ltd (ISBN 962-85291-2-9). It has both SSPM and TCPM's forms in it. If you look at the 2 Bung Bu (BTW, they tried to use the same name for the moves), the 2 forms are slightly different to reflect the differences in the styles. The SSPM version opens with the punch and then the catch the cicada move. The TCPM version opens with a kick then to the right and left side before doing the Catch the cicada move. SSPM as a hard style opens and attacks in middle and always keeping forward pressure. TCPM, however, first opens in the middle and then deflects (to the 2 sides), this show the hard/soft properity of the style. Also in TCPM, the basic eight stances are clearly there (although in the fast version it does look like the SSPM's more "bounce" stances). IMHO, SSPM's movements are more "monkey/ape" (of Tong Bei) like while the TCPM movements are more "Tai Tzu Men/Chen Taiji Changquan" like. I believe it is the influences of the styles they acquired into forming their styles.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Tainan Mantis]

Samurai,
WHF books are available in martial arts stores in China Town. I saw some in the Boston area China Town martial arts shop last month. Also in Hong Kong.
I haven't heard that any of the books have been translated. Some of his students have made books where the moves and names are faithful to WHF.
Most of WHF books consist of a picture and brief explanation.
One book is a compilation of his published articles. This one would be interesting for all kung fu people. Unfortuneatly his Chinese is very scholarly and not easy to translate. He writes about kung fu like a learned professor.
An other book that is interesting is "18 Lohan."
This has an ancient Ching text written in a code that nobody(nobody I know) can understand.
Code languages became the fashion during the Ching for all sorts of esoteric texts. Hopefully someone will come forward someday who was initiated in this language and shed light on the subject.
The other book I mentioned in a previous post also could use a good translation. It has history, herbal formulas and what appears to be the manuscript for every form WHF ever learned.

[grifter721]

Won Hun Fun was known to be a DIRTY fighter and I beleive that he had made alot of changes to the style at an early age. When you are a Dirty fighter you will change moves in KUng Fu to better suit yourself. Do you guys agree?????

[Tainan Mantis]

Kiasyd,
I think you are talking about the 3rd section of 7 star mantis Bung Bu form where there is an eye poke and jump kick. This move also is not in the Taiji Mantis version of Bung Bu.
But the name you used," white snake spits out its tongue" is in the Taiji Mantis version but not the 7 star. This name has no relationship to the actual movement we both described.
So what version of Bung Bu do you practice?

[Kiasyd]

I practice the 7 star praying mantis, from Brendan Lai linneage.

In the bung bo that we train, there is the jump kick and eye poke, but that was not what I was refering to.

I labelled the move "white snake spits out its tongue" the move in the first part of the set where you stand in tai toi sik (single-leg stance) and one hand is closed in a fist (grabbing) and the other is punching, but in fact, I don't know if this name is correct, I saw someone else calling the move like this.

After this move there's a grab and elbow hit in yup won sik. But in the video that i saw, there's high leap with a kick that I never saw in our school...

-- Kiasyd

[Tainan Mantis]

The 1st sec. of Beng Bu in both styles is somewhat similar from the viewpoint of applications and the 2 man part.
Without seeing this tape I can't say for sure what move you are talking about.
Is there any way I could see the video?
Did you know that in some wushu Mantis set there is a move like you described?

[Kiasyd]

Maybe this is wushu mantis then! The stances are very low, compared to the what we train. I saw this video on a web site, about 4 or 5 months ago, so probably I won't be able to find it again... But I'll try anyway :)

I remember that in the same site there were some wushu eagle claw and drunken form videos too, So maybe this is wushu mantis...

-- Kiasyd