Master Stephan Yan

[Nicrimo]

Hello guys ,

Here are videos of master Stephen Yan who practices Xingyi quan , Xinyi quan etc... He is a fantastic master and these videos are superb...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yUk82Kpoug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L85-aSuYH9g

And his website is : www...kung-fu.co.nz

Best regards

[David Jamieson]

try to keep your baiting over at emptyhead.com ok?

we don't care about your flimsy and weak IMA argument generation style.

In these parts, it's straight up calling someone a ***** to their online face, or go home. :p

[SIFU RON]

well put David ;)

[Ray Pina]

Only in Kung Fu can an old, out of shape guy, man handle a young man without breaking a sweat at all.

Now, take that same old man, put him in shorts and a t-shirt and tell me he's just some guy who thinks he's good and can beat me and how do you think that video will look?
Do you think he'll catch my kick and break my knee, Lee Chiang Po? Do you think he has it in him to go all out and fight to someone gets KOed or submits?

Whatever one says or thinks, NONE of these Kung Fu masters, internal nor external, have yet to step up and FIGHT for real, putting their skills on display.

[David Jamieson]

Only in Kung Fu can an old, out of shape guy, man handle a young man without breaking a sweat at all.

Now, take that same old man, put him in shorts and a t-shirt and tell me he's just some guy who thinks he's good and can beat me and how do you think that video will look?
Do you think he'll catch my kick and break my knee, Lee Chiang Po? Do you think he has it in him to go all out and fight to someone gets KOed or submits?

Whatever one says or thinks, NONE of these Kung Fu masters, internal nor external, have yet to step up and FIGHT for real, putting their skills on display.

in all fairness, ray, many of the coaches and sifus are too old to scrap with young bucks regardless of their skills.

old bodies deteriorate and while they still know the kungfu, they would not be able to aptly apply it in a high intensity environment.

having said that, how would a boxer do against a good swordsman? lol :p

[Ray Pina]

Not fair to compare an unarmed man with an armed man.

As for age, there is a time to step aside but only the individual can make that choice. I know jiu-jitsu and Judo men who are dangerous still in their 50, and competing in their respective fields.

There are MMA guys fighting in their late 30s and 40s.

Coaching is coaching. Demonstrating is demonstrating. Fighting is fighting.

Folks who have fought and proven themselves retire gracefully. They know what they have done, they know what they're capable of but they're also aware that there's a new generation doing what they were doing, only better, more advanced and evolved. And they take pride in having laid the foundation.

I don't say it with pride or spite, but many of these kung fu guys are delusional. Having never jumped in the pool, it's obvious to those that have that their a bunch of weirdos spread out swimming on the pool side pavement. And they have followers! And they tell the folks treading water in the deep end how to swim.

It's really crazy and I couldn't understand it unless I was there which I was so I see it but still think its insane. I'll say it until I die: this is martial arts. You're either training to be a dangerous individual or you're not. All this fu(king around hurts Kung Fu's cause. And I'll call it out every time.... what are any of you kung fu guys going to do about it?:p

[David Jamieson]

Not fair to compare an unarmed man with an armed man.

As for age, there is a time to step aside but only the individual can make that choice. I know jiu-jitsu and Judo men who are dangerous still in their 50, and competing in their respective fields.

There are MMA guys fighting in their late 30s and 40s.

Coaching is coaching. Demonstrating is demonstrating. Fighting is fighting.

Folks who have fought and proven themselves retire gracefully. They know what they have done, they know what they're capable of but they're also aware that there's a new generation doing what they were doing, only better, more advanced and evolved. And they take pride in having laid the foundation.

I don't say it with pride or spite, but many of these kung fu guys are delusional. Having never jumped in the pool, it's obvious to those that have that their a bunch of weirdos spread out swimming on the pool side pavement. And they have followers! And they tell the folks treading water in the deep end how to swim.

It's really crazy and I couldn't understand it unless I was there which I was so I see it but still think its insane. I'll say it until I die: this is martial arts. You're either training to be a dangerous individual or you're not. All this fu(king around hurts Kung Fu's cause. And I'll call it out every time.... what are any of you kung fu guys going to do about it?:p

yes, it is not fair to pit an unarmed man against an armed one.

but, if someone's kungfu is in their swordsmanship, even though they do teach fighting methods, it isn't germaine to sportive combative in many respects.

a qigong master may not fair well in a high intensity sport fighting environment and a sport fighter may know nothing and not be able to benefit from the work of qigong.

a kungfu master in his 60's may not have ever been in a ring fight ever in his life but may have had some fights in his youth.

training kungfu is not the same as training to fight sportively, not that one can't do both, but many do not, especially traditional schools.

these days, there is crossover, but still, there are a lot of teachings in kungfu systems that have no place in sportive combative and never did.

sport is for young guys and anyone else who wants to do it. as soon as you take it into a venue where there are rings and the 32 mma rules, it is no longer kungfu.

so, take ross for instance and his thing.

is his san shou kungfu or not? if it is, your assessment is incorrect about kungfu guys doing a ring fight.

if it's not, then you're right, kungfu doesn't step up.

but then, I have found that there are a great deal of mma-ists who will immediate discount kungfu training or dismiss it entirely and say, and quite rightly so that the guy in question has trained mma. well, he had to in order to fight in that venue.

you can be sure he's not allowed to bring his sword, even though that's where his greatest abilities may lie. so is that fair?

another good reference is that rudy vs anthony fight.

rudy was beating the crap outta the guy and got pulled off him. then they asked rudy, a kungfu guy to start from his knees.

???

you can still find that stupid thing on the internet and you can still here our own poster 1bad65 proclaiming kungfu sucks because of the result of that.

so what is fair? and why should kungfu masters step out of their kungfu and mma should not step into it? why is mma given carte blanche over what is right and what is wrong about combat when all it ever does is fight in a ring. which is tough sure, but it isn't the only measure of combative skills.

kungfu covers a lot more than what you can do in mma. so while i agree, for young guys, mma is gonna be a good outlet for you and all your testosterone and willingness to fight.

but there will come a day when you will not be able to do that. then what? are you now to be relegated as useless?

[David Jamieson]

also, as an aside, you yourself studied under and used the advice of your own kungfu master david bond chan to go out and test your art.

does david bond chan do that? Or does he just teach others how to do it?
when's the last time he stepped up in a ring? Is it fair to call him a nobody because of that or because he doesn't do it anymore?

it's not black and white is my point and we shouldn't try to paint it into a corner as such.

there is room for everything and room for everyone to do what they want or need to do at their own comfort level and it doesn't help anyone to cast aspersion onto others for their thing.

Although, I do agree it works both ways. The kungfu guys who berate mma are just as silly as the mma guys who berate good kungfu.

I personally just don't take it personally. :)

[Ray Pina]

I was going to answer point by point but decided on one broad brush stroke.

There is international competition for swordsmanship if someone labels themselves a master and wants to see just where they stand. I know several good swordmen/women in NY. In fact, my master was hosting bokken tournaments just before I moved.

Forgetting for a moment rules, there's still international Vale Tudo events where one can compare without hindrance to their full capabilities.... but they will be on the receiving end of the same. Venues with rules, be it MMA or kick boxing or whatever, apply to everyone equally.

If we were to compare I always suggest gentlemen rules (no balls or eye attacks)... that's the same for both of us. If one insists on eyes and balls I say to myself, this dirty motherfu(ker, and then make a point to take them down, completely control them, and then feed them strikes to understand they can't even pick their wedgie without me letting them. You'll see ample evidence of this in one of my video links below..... can't do that against sport fighters. Why? ..... because they're great fighters fighting all the time.... they're aggressive. They've cool and calm under pressure. They can take shots and still function.

It is rare to find a kung fu student capable of that. This is just honesty.

Too many words to justify why no kung fu guy has his a$$ out there doing something.

And to finish up: my master is in his late 60s now. He did spend his time in the ring. He has fought his challenge matches, with weapons and without. One of the reasons I left was because I was surrounded by a bunch of ranking disciples with good jobs who didn't want to get dirty but felt compelled to inform me how much better they were than me and why I should listen to everything they say. I don't handle bull$hit well.

As for coach ross. I respect what he has done for NYC martial arts but In would say his fighters are not kung fu guys. They're fighters. They'll take anything that works. It's not what they do, but how they train it. I would guess they're training like MMA guys.... lots of conditioning, pad work, drills, BJJ, sparring. That's why they show up to fight. That's why they win.

[David Jamieson]

I was going to answer point by point but decided on one broad brush stroke.

There is international competition for swordsmanship if someone labels themselves a master and wants to see just where they stand. I know several good swordmen/women in NY. In fact, my master was hosting bokken tournaments just before I moved.

Forgetting for a moment rules, there's still international Vale Tudo events where one can compare without hindrance to their full capabilities.... but they will be on the receiving end of the same. Venues with rules, be it MMA or kick boxing or whatever, apply to everyone equally.

If we were to compare I always suggest gentlemen rules (no balls or eye attacks)... that's the same for both of us. If one insists on eyes and balls I say to myself, this dirty motherfu(ker, and then make a point to take them down, completely control them, and then feed them strikes to understand they can't even pick their wedgie without me letting them. You'll see ample evidence of this in one of my video links below..... can't do that against sport fighters. Why? ..... because they're great fighters fighting all the time.... they're aggressive. They've cool and calm under pressure. They can take shots and still function.

It is rare to find a kung fu student capable of that. This is just honesty.

Too many words to justify why no kung fu guy has his a$$ out there doing something.

And to finish up: my master is in his late 60s now. He did spend his time in the ring. He has fought his challenge matches, with weapons and without. One of the reasons I left was because I was surrounded by a bunch of ranking disciples with good jobs who didn't want to get dirty but felt compelled to inform me how much better they were than me and why I should listen to everything they say. I don't handle bull$hit well.

As for coach ross. I respect what he has done for NYC martial arts but In would say his fighters are not kung fu guys. They're fighters. They'll take anything that works. It's not what they do, but how they train it. I would guess they're training like MMA guys.... lots of conditioning, pad work, drills, BJJ, sparring. That's why they show up to fight. That's why they win.

You can answer your own question by asking yourself "what is kungfu".

In essence, the one with the given skill is the one with the kungfu. Even if he's just a wrestler.

If you are asking dancers to be boxers and boxers to be dancers, you are creating a man that is made of straw and easy to tear down.

fighting is what it is. you either do it all the way, part of the way or not at all.

Martial arts schools are filled with people who can't fight and have no intention of ever getting in a fight.

The better part of all martial artists aren't highly skilled in fighting.

I think blanketing "kungfu" is incorrect. It is just seeming malicious.

I'm a kungfu guy. I don't compete, but I'll step up if need be and I certainly incorporate sparring, drills , bag and mitt work along with forms and weapons etc.

I don't have to prove myself to anyone but myself. :)

[TenTigers]

hmmm... I thought it was this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V37Pc45P4HA&feature=related

[Ray Pina]

I don't have to prove myself to anyone but myself. :)

That's true.

[Lucas]

imo, we can be judged through any endeavor, as to how closely we reach our predetermined goals.

if your goal in practicing martial arts is to be able to take all comers, fight any guy that steps up and whip em all leaving a wake of defeated opponents in your path and be the best of the best.... then you better train darn hard, and put in the time sweat and blood to make that happen. Of course this is going to involve LOTS of fighting. not a bad goal, not a good goal. just a goal. no ones goal is better than anyone elses, excepting of course goals sought through self sacrifice for the betterment of others. Those goals DO trump others of course.

but what kind of fighter are we?

are you a sport fighter? are you a tough knuckle beating people for the mafia? are you a bodyguard? a street tough scrapper? in a biker gang? are you a secret service agent? whats your fight? Guns, bombs, fists, your mind, all of the above? are you a man living in darfur looking to protect his women from rape and murder? forget fist fights and get an AK47

What if your goal is simply to have confidence in being able to defend yourself and those you love from harmful outsiders, to live healthy and long and to be able to remain active in your 80's-90's, to experience vast culture and be part of a group of individuals that share some of your goals? what if your fight isnt against other people at all, but against yourself and other obsticles many people just never have to think about, let alone deal with. most people arent all fighting the same fight.

judgement should be goal oriented and we can be judged by how we reach and how closely we achieve those goals.

dont get me wrong, i feel as strongly as Ray concerning people making claims they have no rights to. its absurd and truly, the most harmful thing that can happen in CMA is the propegation of this type of teacher.

I have a friend who I used to practice kungfu with. He joined the Marines. Hes taking the military career route. which is great. he stopped practicing martial arts like he used to. one day I asked him why he doesnt feel like doing the training anymore. he said: he gets all the physical training from the military now, and he doesnt need to know all the kungfu, his weapon is his m4a1, he uses a different martial art for the fight hes preparing himself for now.

his goal changed, so did his training.

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

but what kind of fighter are we?

*snip*


I'm a dirty fighter. :(

I have zero respect for anyone who attacks me.

[Nicrimo]

This is a new video of master Stephen Yan... it is very interesting!!

all the best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj50sAdf1CI

[lkfmdc]

in all fairness, ray, many of the coaches and sifus are too old to scrap with young bucks regardless of their skills.



I have "A level" guys in their 20's. I can't spar and keep up with them at 100%, no question. But I can demonstrate my skills in a realistic manner

[xcakid]

See that's why I am transitioning to become a forms dancer. :D

In all seriousness, the level of Sanda fighters these days is far greater than the Sanda fighters I was used to when I was competing in the late 80's and early 90's. Having had many previous injuries including the current knee surgery and turning 41, you won't see me on the competition floor doing full contact anymore. But as most have said, I now have the experience to teach and coach.

I did compete in continuos sparring at the last kung fu tournament in the area and came in 3rd and continue to spar in class as well as coaching students for Sanda.

[Nicrimo]

This is a new video of the incredible master : Stephen Yan...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj50sAdf1CI

Thanks:D

[Nicrimo]

And two news videos:

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewforum.php?f=6

Dr.Stephen Yan wu tai chi form & push hands in 1994,1995,1998,2003

http://www.youtube.com/user/DrStephenYan#p/a

This video including 4 parts:

part one: A letter from master Ma Yue Liang to Dr stephen Yan in 1993 (addressing Dr Yan as his "good disciple" and signing as "yu shi", which is a very traditional form of writing from Master to Disciple ); A writing from Master Cheng tin-chung for Dr.Yan's taichi booking (it says: A TALENT OF MARTIAL ARTS; EXCELLENT SKILLED PERSON IN TAI CHI ,GREAT REPUTATION IN MEDICINE; ALL OF THOSE ARE PRAISED BY PEOPLE 郑天熊大师为颜紫元书著的题词; And a photo was taken in WuDang Mountain ,Dr. Yan with chairman Li of WuDang Taoist association in year 2000. Dr Yan saw a video of WUDAN kung fu school Master YOU XUAN DE demonstrating push-hands by just touching someone with his one finger tip and the person flied away over 10 metres, and specially travelled to Wudan to determine its authenticity.

Part two: a brief video of Dr. Yan doing Wu style tai chi (Wu Jian Quan's form)in 1998. Over 11 year passed by now, Dr. Yan's taichi form has improved a lot, but before Dr. Yan has time to do a more recent video, those old ones can still demonstrate some unique features of Wu tai chi( including 5 bows of body shenfa)

Part three: Dr. Yan phs with his student Edward Ware; Jian (Jian was a southen first expert), and David (this was Dr.Yan's only public PHS demonstration up to the present. David was one of Dr.Yan's senior external Kung Fu students)

Part four: was Dr. Yan's senior Taichi brother Zhang Jing Gui PHS with Dr. Yan's student chris in 1994.

Dr. Yan feels his skill in PHS has been improving constantly by comparing his PHS with Geoff in 2008, and his PHS with Ian this year (2009), especially with IAN as his skill was more mature. Dr. Yan still feels his Tai Chi gets better every day, and as long as the direction is correct, one can make improvements throughout his life.

:)

[David Jamieson]

I have "A level" guys in their 20's. I can't spar and keep up with them at 100%, no question. But I can demonstrate my skills in a realistic manner

you can demonstrate skills that they can use to tool you. :)

most of us (I really want to say all, but I'll make room for the one freako that is out there somewhere :) )old guys are simply gonna get destroyed by a guy half our age an in a training regimen of martial arts that employs realistic fight training.

[Nicrimo]

Videos of a great master : Stephen Yan ...

It's very interesting :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8NtUmk3eCs

Dr Stephen Yan is an impressive master of xinyi , wu taiji style etc...

Good video !

[Boston Bagua]

There has been more than enough of Dr. Yan

Please mods. get rid of this thread and anything related to Dr. Yan.

This has been an ongoing battle on other forums and I would rather it stay there and not here.

[goju]

Only in Kung Fu can an old, out of shape guy, man handle a young man without breaking a sweat at all.

Now, take that same old man, put him in shorts and a t-shirt and tell me he's just some guy who thinks he's good and can beat me and how do you think that video will look?
Do you think he'll catch my kick and break my knee, Lee Chiang Po? Do you think he has it in him to go all out and fight to someone gets KOed or submits?

Whatever one says or thinks, NONE of these Kung Fu masters, internal nor external, have yet to step up and FIGHT for real, putting their skills on display.

well of course who is running around and challenging these masters? LOL

its kind of hard to fight when the only one talking **** about you is some anonymous internet bum thousands of miles away:D

[bawang]

why u guys dont like this guy called stephen yan?

[David Jamieson]

why u guys dont like this guy called stephen yan?

He's preachy and condescending.

Also, some of his ideas on dealing with some modalities of combat have been noted to be unrealistic.

He doesn't share tea and refuses to eat even a little bitter it seems.

His cup is full.

Much the same reasons to not like a lot of people I guess. lol :D

[bawang]

in english please

edit oh i get it, kung fu politics drama

[Lee Chiang Po]

Only in Kung Fu can an old, out of shape guy, man handle a young man without breaking a sweat at all.

Now, take that same old man, put him in shorts and a t-shirt and tell me he's just some guy who thinks he's good and can beat me and how do you think that video will look?
Do you think he'll catch my kick and break my knee, Lee Chiang Po? Do you think he has it in him to go all out and fight to someone gets KOed or submits?

Whatever one says or thinks, NONE of these Kung Fu masters, internal nor external, have yet to step up and FIGHT for real, putting their skills on display.

Actually, all I saw was an old man shoving someone around. But, when you get his age, will you be able to do what he does? Ray, if you were really any good you would be fighting on TV by now. You are like the many other fools that are wasting your money. You will never be good enough, but your coach will not tell you that because you would stop paying him. I suspect that you have never really fought in a situation where rules did not count. Against a real figher. There are lots of kung fu guys out there that would do the same for you. Except, you keep insisting on fighting by your MMA rules, which would disarm everyone of them. You are talking about ring fighting since you spoke of submitting. I have had my share of real fights, and no one taps out on me. If I had a wrist/arm bar on someone I would simply break it. But as soon as I took the wrist lock I would have been either disqualified or told to release because it is a small joint. And I can not deliberately break the arm. No hitting in the back of the head. No kicking a head when a man is down. No spinal or kidney shots or stomps or kicks. No groin kicks. Not nut kicks, but groin kicks. All you can do is stand and swing or run under for a take down. Yea, that takes some real skill. If you were 5'4" and weighed 120 pounds would MMA still work for you against a larger man?

LCP

[Lokhopkuen]

I was going to answer point by point but decided on one broad brush stroke.

There is international competition for swordsmanship if someone labels themselves a master and wants to see just where they stand. I know several good swordmen/women in NY. In fact, my master was hosting bokken tournaments just before I moved.

Forgetting for a moment rules, there's still international Vale Tudo events where one can compare without hindrance to their full capabilities.... but they will be on the receiving end of the same. Venues with rules, be it MMA or kick boxing or whatever, apply to everyone equally.

If we were to compare I always suggest gentlemen rules (no balls or eye attacks)... that's the same for both of us. If one insists on eyes and balls I say to myself, this dirty motherfu(ker, and then make a point to take them down, completely control them, and then feed them strikes to understand they can't even pick their wedgie without me letting them. You'll see ample evidence of this in one of my video links below..... can't do that against sport fighters. Why? ..... because they're great fighters fighting all the time.... they're aggressive. They've cool and calm under pressure. They can take shots and still function.

It is rare to find a kung fu student capable of that. This is just honesty.

Too many words to justify why no kung fu guy has his a$$ out there doing something.

And to finish up: my master is in his late 60s now. He did spend his time in the ring. He has fought his challenge matches, with weapons and without. One of the reasons I left was because I was surrounded by a bunch of ranking disciples with good jobs who didn't want to get dirty but felt compelled to inform me how much better they were than me and why I should listen to everything they say. I don't handle bull$hit well.

As for coach ross. I respect what he has done for NYC martial arts but In would say his fighters are not kung fu guys. They're fighters. They'll take anything that works. It's not what they do, but how they train it. I would guess they're training like MMA guys.... lots of conditioning, pad work, drills, BJJ, sparring. That's why they show up to fight. That's why they win.

I think you may want to create another KF Magazine account just for your ego dude.

I've seen your videos and yes although you are scrappy and I can tell you really enjoy attempting to hurt people, but your technique needs loads of work.

I think one day when you calm down you might actually be a great fighter.

[Lokhopkuen]

you can demonstrate skills that they can use to tool you. :)

most of us (I really want to say all, but I'll make room for the one freako that is out there somewhere :) )old guys are simply gonna get destroyed by a guy half our age an in a training regimen of martial arts that employs realistic fight training.

Maybe in your home town David. I just came off the road working the hip-hop concert scene for a somebody we all know and got a chance to play with some 20 & 30 somethings that needed a little calming down.

They break easy LOL!

[goju]

its amusing how guys do alittle low level competition and then walk around like they are anderson silva:D

[KC Elbows]

Whatever one says or thinks, NONE of these Kung Fu masters, internal nor external, have yet to step up and FIGHT for real, putting their skills on display.

My first kung fu teacher fought sanshou. A lot of mainland teachers fought sanshou previously, and the young teachers coming up seem to tend to have that experience.

Mt most recent experience in China was a Chen style teacher whose main student was the local sanshou champ, and whose students were mostly cops and their families and friends. Additionally, in Henan, I would say that I personally saw no less than 20 kung fu school's sanshou programs, and only a couple schools that lacked one.

I understand you think you're serving a purpose trying to set a fire under other people's asses, but is it worth ****ting on real fighters to do it? Should you have to put up with the same because someone other than you doesn't represent what you do as well? That's an honest question, I have no personal beef with you, but the reality is, full contact venues that had rule sets that could draw traditional styles were pretty nonexistent in most of the US until mma, but less limited in China, because the government pushed for sanshou, even if it was also sometimes not sanshou's best supporter.

I should clarify that my criticisms are solely about this attitude, I understand where it comes from, but it does more harm to the legit guys than to the rest. I am fully supportive of your quest for the win.

[Frost]

Why does everyone who has never competed bring up the “if you are not on tv fighting for a national title you are rubbish and your view useless.” The fact is Ray is light years ahead of most people on this forum in terms of technique and fitness, anyone who is competing is.

People why have competed at any level in a combat sport (boxing wrestling, judo, MMA thai etc) know how hard it is to compete full stop. Those who talk down to people who have competed should really stop making comments until they actually get on the mat or in the ring/cage otherwise it just sounds silly.

And please don’t bring up the old I can’t fight in these events because the rules stop my super secret spine/nut/throat shot or I can’t go for an arm break/wrist break etc, it’s a tired false argument

[KC Elbows]

Why does everyone who has never competed bring up the “if you are not on tv fighting for a national title you are rubbish and your view useless.” The fact is Ray is light years ahead of most people on this forum in terms of technique and fitness, anyone who is competing is.

People why have competed at any level in a combat sport (boxing wrestling, judo, MMA thai etc) know how hard it is to compete full stop. Those who talk down to people who have competed should really stop making comments until they actually get on the mat or in the ring/cage otherwise it just sounds silly.

And please don’t bring up the old I can’t fight in these events because the rules stop my super secret spine/nut/throat shot or I can’t go for an arm break/wrist break etc, it’s a tired false argument

By the same token, Ray did make statements about other fighters who may have fought in the ring. Can't have it both ways. There's a lot of sanshou fighters in China, a few in the US, and his statement includes them to a great extent. I like Ray, so I feel like he'd rather be aware of that than just have people stand up for him even when he's not completely right.

[Frost]

I think when we talk about these masters we normally refer to those in the west as this is our normal frame of reference, as you say it is probably different in Asia but I think he was speaking of the masters who talk a lot and don't put up, and there are a lot of those out there in the USA and Europe

[KC Elbows]

I think when we talk about these masters we normally refer to those in the west as this is our normal frame of reference, as you say it is probably different in Asia but I think he was speaking of the masters who talk a lot and don't put up, and there are a lot of those out there in the USA and Europe

My first kung fu teacher was in the US, and he fought. Ray's words reflect on him and his school by their broadness, and can affect his ability to run a legitimate business here if those views become repeated enough by enough people who don't know better.

I am of the opinion that mma is a great thing not because of the talk, but because it gives a venue to refine people's fighting. This is the talk.

[KC Elbows]

I think he was speaking of the masters who talk a lot and don't put up...

If one's goal becomes attacking them, attack them. I thought Ray's goal was winning.

[KC Elbows]

And to clarify, if someone agrees with me here just to be ****ish to Ray, screw you, too.:D

No need to call me a class act.;)

[Knifefighter]

This is a new video of master Stephen Yan... it is very interesting!!

all the best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj50sAdf1CI
Anyone who has actually competed against decent guys in non-compliant environments knows that things will not look anything like what was shown in that vid.

That clip is a perfect example of what Ray is talking about. You've got a clueless guy who clearly hasn't competed showing unrealistic techniques against someone's "grappling and joint locks".

It's fine if someone wants to teach and demonstrate "kung fu". However, when he is clearly setting himself as an example of what to do against "grappling", he needs to be called on it.

What this guy is demonstrating in the above clip is pure and utter bull$hit

[David Jamieson]

Why does everyone who has never competed bring up the “if you are not on tv fighting for a national title you are rubbish and your view useless.” The fact is Ray is light years ahead of most people on this forum in terms of technique and fitness, anyone who is competing is.

You don't actually know that about Ray, unless you know him. For all we know he's just a pot head surfer with a bad attitude who doesn't like traditional martial artists and is wont to turn what is implied as a friendly sparring match into an aggressive full on full contact competitive fight. And when he did step into the venue of mma and ring fighting, he got his ass handed to him a couple of times. All that is well and good, but this is surmised from Ray's own output. :)


People why have competed at any level in a combat sport (boxing wrestling, judo, MMA thai etc) know how hard it is to compete full stop. Those who talk down to people who have competed should really stop making comments until they actually get on the mat or in the ring/cage otherwise it just sounds silly. Who is talking down to competitive fighters? I think some people will question the value of those venues overall, but a fighter is a fighter and is generally recognized as such.


And please don’t bring up the old I can’t fight in these events because the rules stop my super secret spine/nut/throat shot or I can’t go for an arm break/wrist break etc, it’s a tired false argument :rolleyes: how about not everyone fights in competitive venues for any number of reasons but is still a martial arts practitioner nevertheless?

Or are you in the camp that only ring fighting has value as a martial art? Because that's ludicrous. :)

[Knifefighter]

:rolleyes: how about not everyone fights in competitive venues for any number of reasons but is still a martial arts practitioner nevertheless?

Or are you in the camp that only ring fighting has value as a martial art? Because that's ludicrous. :)

Here's the problem with never competing or going full-on against people who have... you end up falling for the bull$hit that demos like the above clip promote and never know that it is bull$hit.

[Frost]

You don't actually know that about Ray, unless you know him. For all we know he's just a pot head surfer with a bad attitude who doesn't like traditional martial artists and is wont to turn what is implied as a friendly sparring match into an aggressive full on full contact competitive fight. And when he did step into the venue of mma and ring fighting, he got his ass handed to him a couple of times. All that is well and good, but this is surmised from Ray's own output. :)

Who is talking down to competitive fighters? I think some people will question the value of those venues overall, but a fighter is a fighter and is generally recognized as such.

:rolleyes: how about not everyone fights in competitive venues for any number of reasons but is still a martial arts practitioner nevertheless?

Or are you in the camp that only ring fighting has value as a martial art? Because that's ludicrous. :)

I can say that about Ray because he has competed in MMA (and lost I know so what) and competed in BJJ and won, and I know the level of fitness and commitment needed to do both of those things and it is above what the average non competitive athlete is prepared to do.

Check out lee chaing po’s post for putting down competitive fighters, and goju's for putting down ray on this very thread.

Oh and the please don’t bring up the deadly strikes was as a direct response to what lee chaing po wrote on this thread

I happen to think competition has value to martial arts, and if you don’t compete then you are not really in a position to judge those who do, is that fair enough?

[Frost]

Here's the problem with never competing or going full-on against people who have... you end up falling for the bull$hit that demos like the above clip promote and never know that it is bull$hit.

also what he said :D

[David Jamieson]

Here's the problem with never competing or going full-on against people who have... you end up falling for the bull$hit that demos like the above clip promote and never know that it is bull$hit.

You are assuming. You can't make a blanket statement like that which implies everyone is stupid and incapable of seeing what is and what is not actually worthwhile.

No one ends up anything because they haven't fought competitively. There are a great many competitive fighters who really shouldn't be competitive fighters. There are a lot who totally should be doing that for their career and there are huge truckloads of people who are there to wear the t-shirt like any other pursuit.

artificially creating camps around what is martial and what is not is fallacy and empty and worthless. competition sportive combative can be fun and a worthwhile endeavour for martial artists. But it is not the only way to learn the wealth fo information that is found across all martial arts.

How do you sportively compete with bladed weapons for instance? Like the cholos hacking at each other for 50 bucks US on the streets of rio? Or does it stay in a safer environment. Which do you value more. It must e the safer environment because you are posting here and you are not dead from all those knife fights are you.

Fighting is what comes AFTER you train. Fighting is where the training is shown to have leaks or not and every single fighter out there has faced a loss despite their training.

So, why is sport fighting a better way than any other? If you think people are deluded because they don't fight sportively, then I would suggest that it is you who are deluded.

It's not necessary for me to shoot someone everyday to know I'm ok with a rifle.
It's not necessary to fight all the time to know that your training is benefiting you.

And don't even get started about esoteric practices such as yoga and qigong which are beneficial to pretty much every athlete out there fighter or not but you will find that not all sportive combative types even get any of that information or practice at all. Some people get more out of that than fighting but can't find it anywhere else but in a traditional martial arts schools where the teacher is versed in such things.

I think there are a lot of screwed up viewpoints about martial arts. They come from all sides. MMA fans and practitioners do as many screwed up weirdo and stupid things in regards to MA as any traditionalist has done. BUt by all means, if you want to point your fingers to make yourself feel better about what you do or are not doing, then go ahead. lol :)

[Knifefighter]

BUt by all means, if you want to point your fingers to make yourself feel better about what you do or are not doing, then go ahead. lol :)

And if you want to believe cr@p like what was shown in those clips to feel better about what you are doing, go right ahead... lol :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

sorry to interrupt another great flame war

but does ANYONE on here really think the clip shows GOOD STUFF? :eek:

[David Jamieson]

And if you want to believe cr@p like what was shown in those clips to feel better about what you are doing, go right ahead... lol :rolleyes:

again, and true to form you are being assumptive.

I made my comments about what I thought of Yan's vids.
Apparently you wish to assume I buy into it for whatever reason.
Probably your own anger. lol

I just don't agree with blanket statements such as you made about other arts or people and was merely pointing out my view on that as an aside from the Yan vids, which of course in my opinion are dubious.

But you took it away from that too Dale. You went straight for the same old hash marks as usual whereby you devalue everything but mma and sportive combatives.

Which in my opinion makes you myopic in that sense. And go for it if that's what you like. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I am looking for a " fight teacher" I may ask and inquire about fighting experience but the "proof positive" is if he ( the teacher) or a student can beat my ass, showing me they have something to offer me for all the pain I will be going through.
:D
If I am NOT looking for a "fight teacher" then his or her ability to fight is irrelevant to me.
Some look for a hobby, some for exercise, some for LARP, we know this and must acknowledge that.
The issue is when people try to pass off crap as "practical fighting" and in those times, those that have fought and believe it to be BS should yell, "BS!!!"

No one is ever critical of someone doing a beautiful taiji form that shows grace, fluidity and power, nor should anyone be.
But if that very same person decides to "demo" that form saying that what they are doing is "practical" then if they show BS it must be called BS.

[taai gihk yahn]

sorry to interrupt another great flame war

but does ANYONE on here really think the clip shows GOOD STUFF? :eek:

no; it's crap; it's an example of everything that's wrong w/the mind-set with which a large number of people "practice" taiji;

[David Jamieson]

no; it's crap; it's an example of everything that's wrong w/the mind-set with which a large number of people "practice" taiji;

I would concur with this.

[Lokhopkuen]

Anyone who has actually competed against decent guys in non-compliant environments knows that things will not look anything like what was shown in that vid.

That clip is a perfect example of what Ray is talking about. You've got a clueless guy who clearly hasn't competed showing unrealistic techniques against someone's "grappling and joint locks".

It's fine if someone wants to teach and demonstrate "kung fu". However, when he is clearly setting himself as an example of what to do against "grappling", he needs to be called on it.

What this guy is demonstrating in the above clip is pure and utter bull$hit

Strangely I actually agree with you.

[Lokhopkuen]

sorry to interrupt another great flame war

but does ANYONE on here really think the clip shows GOOD STUFF? :eek:

He seems to understand the rules of pushing hands against a non-resistive opponent but I haven't seen anything in there that moved me. I was more impressed with the Pathgate Lama feel my chi guy.

[Lokhopkuen]

If I am looking for a " fight teacher" I may ask and inquire about fighting experience but the "proof positive" is if he ( the teacher) or a student can beat my ass, showing me they have something to offer me for all the pain I will be going through.
:D
If I am NOT looking for a "fight teacher" then his or her ability to fight is irrelevant to me.
Some look for a hobby, some for exercise, some for LARP, we know this and must acknowledge that.
The issue is when people try to pass off crap as "practical fighting" and in those times, those that have fought and believe it to be BS should yell, "BS!!!"

No one is ever critical of someone doing a beautiful taiji form that shows grace, fluidity and power, nor should anyone be.
But if that very same person decides to "demo" that form saying that what they are doing is "practical" then if they show BS it must be called BS.

Traditionally (back in the old days) when you went to a new school with some sort of previous training the Sifu would send one of his close students to deliver a good beat down (particularly if the person had an attitude) this would show that all you learned before was useless causing you to empty your cup and taste the new tea.

Ahh the good old day:rolleyes:

I don't think I'd be interested to train under an instructor that I could beat.
Why bother?

[Knifefighter]

Traditionally (back in the old days) when you went to a new school with some sort of previous training the Sifu would send one of his close students to deliver a good beat down (particularly if the person had an attitude) this would show that all you learned before was useless causing you to empty your cup and taste the new tea.

Ahh the good old day:rolleyes:

I don't think I'd be interested to train under an instructor that I could beat.
Why bother?

Do you think Mike Tyson could have beaten Cus D'Amato or Teddy Atlas? Of course he could have. However, he wouldn't have been half the fighter he was without them. Lots of athletes could beat their coaches. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be training under them.

[goju]

Why does everyone who has never competed bring up the “if you are not on tv fighting for a national title you are rubbish and your view useless.” The fact is Ray is light years ahead of most people on this forum in terms of technique and fitness, anyone who is competing is.

People why have competed at any level in a combat sport (boxing wrestling, judo, MMA thai etc) know how hard it is to compete full stop. Those who talk down to people who have competed should really stop making comments until they actually get on the mat or in the ring/cage otherwise it just sounds silly.

And please don’t bring up the old I can’t fight in these events because the rules stop my super secret spine/nut/throat shot or I can’t go for an arm break/wrist break etc, it’s a tired false argument


its because some people here have competed in low level competitios but have ufc champion size egos:D

[David Jamieson]

its because some people here have competed in low level competitios but have ufc champion size egos:D

I think it's safe to say that 99.999% of all martial artists do not compete in ufc type venues. Even those that train mma.

It's also safe to say that there are likely no pro fighters on these boards or any for that matter.

[goju]

i think with some people its hard for them to grasp that we are all just anonymous internet bums who ones knows or cares about:D

[MightyB]

One of my Judo coaches is pushing 70 and still likes to throw down.

My problem with these types of videos is that I just don't believe them. I've done way too much Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and wrestling to believe them. I'm not knocking on masters or techniques or anything- but I will knock a culture that has evolved in TCMA. I do believe in respecting your seniors and masters- but, not to the point where I'd propagate a false technique or ability. The idea of yielding to overcome, yes, that's high level- but it has to work against a full-on attack. A full on attack designed to floor you. You experience it in Judo, and I imagine in Shuai Chiao. The guy is really going to push and wrestle you in an attempt to floor you. If you can yield and neutralize his momentum, you can counter with a throw of your own. It takes time to master this. I don't see the intent of the attack in Tai Chi or these Ying Yi clips. The attacker is a limp-fish. He's not really REALLY in it to wrestle the old bugger. This begets a culture of limp-fishiness. A bunch of limp-fish that think they know something because guys way too young to have a limp-fisher yield to them have limp-fishers yield to them in these videos that show these supposably superior internal wrestling techniques. They're crap I tell ya- not because they were intended to be crap- but because everyone's too afraid to challenge the technique.

[Lokhopkuen]

Do you think Mike Tyson could have beaten Cus D'Amato or Teddy Atlas? Of course he could have. However, he wouldn't have been half the fighter he was without them. Lots of athletes could beat their coaches. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be training under them.

I've been with my teacher a long time and I have never once sparred with him so yea I see what you're saying. I have been the recipient of some really vicious applications demonstrations and I have always felt that in a pinch even though he is older and smaller than me he could hold his own against me. Of course out of respect i'd never even test the possibility of it.

Pro boxing in my opinion is different than long term martial art for life training. The active life of a professional fighter is not very long. After all they are simply training to dominate in a sport situation during their prime and most pro fighters are pretty used up at the end of their career. The level of physical fitness I attained when I was younger has served me well in midlife. Like any completive fighter I sustained some debilitating injuries over the years but not anything that has left me brain damaged and drooling.

Mike Tyson was a guy with massive potential and raw talent so the gentlemen you sited honed and directed those raw talents but a boxing coach would not be expected to be sparring partners? Boxing as a a martial art is simple and powerful in it's construction where as traditional martial art has a greater series of options in it's tool box. The average kung fu practitioner learns many techniques but very few (sadly) will actually take the time to developed any single one of those techniques to a useful weapons grade level. That's one of the main reasons why "kung fu" has the "reputation".
Traditional martial art (depending on who's you are talking about) is demanding in a different way than sport boxing and depending on your focus you get out of it what you put in to it. Over the span of a life time you'd train it different in harmony with age and fitness level.
IMO I feel that a person who teaches traditional martial art should be able to demonstrate the various techniques and essences as well as use them in combat not just talk about how to do it.

I see lots of great coaches at my boxing gym but in my opinion very few of them are actual fighters where as many older kung fu men I know are fit & can still hold their own if the need arises.

[Knifefighter]

I see lots of great coaches at my boxing gym but in my opinion very few of them are actual fighters where as many older kung fu men I know are fit & can still hold their own if the need arises.

Most older boxing coaches had either an amateur or pro boxing career and would make short work of most older kung fu men.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditionally (back in the old days) when you went to a new school with some sort of previous training the Sifu would send one of his close students to deliver a good beat down (particularly if the person had an attitude) this would show that all you learned before was useless causing you to empty your cup and taste the new tea.

Ahh the good old day:rolleyes:

I don't think I'd be interested to train under an instructor that I could beat.
Why bother?

Not that far back bro...:D
But you got show that you are there to fight and not just role play.

[goju]

Most older boxing coaches had either an amateur or pro boxing career and would make short work of most older kung fu men.

and you know this how exactly?

[t_niehoff]

and you know this how exactly?

From knowing how both groups trained.

[goju]

From knowing how both groups trained.

no his statement was the equivalent of my dad can beat up your dad

unless they actually step up and spar or fight each other arguing for either side is pointless and stupid

[Lucas]

not to mention the variables

some washed up kungfuguy with jacked up knees and a bad back isnt going to fair well against a ex pro boxer who is still in shape.

likewise a washed up ex pro boxer with jacked up shoulders, and brain damage wont do well against an older kungfu guy still trading with his sanshou students.

[David Jamieson]

no his statement was the equivalent of my dad can beat up your dad

unless they actually step up and spar or fight each other arguing for either side is pointless and stupid

You will find that many of kf's statements are "my dad can beat up your dad" type statements. lol ;D

Having said that, as a former juvenile boxer I can emphatically state that there are more than a few coaches who were not amateur boxers, did not fight, have never fought and merely coach people based on their knowledge of the training methods, the art and their love of boxing.

Also, look at Ross, he's had a couple of sanshou matches, not really much of a career as a fighter, quite a lot of time in with traditional and he trains fighters. In my opinion, for a guy of his age and experience he is becoming more typical of the next gen of kungfu coaches out there with an eye towards competitive fighting.

the venue is set, anyone can train towards it.

But Kungfu is for life. It is part of your day to day riggings and doings.

[Lucas]

You will find that many of kf's statements are "my dad can beat up your dad" type statements. lol ;D

Having said that, as a former juvenile boxer I can emphatically state that there are more than a few coaches who were not amateur boxers, did not fight, have never fought and merely coach people based on their knowledge of the training methods, the art and their love of boxing.

same deal with gymists.

hell you can do that with pretty much everything.

the thing i find funny is that a boxer is 'allowed' to train fighters with out ever having to be a fighter really himself. but its a no no if chinese martial arts does that?

LOL

of course you need fighters to train with. the boxer will fight other boxers and get instrucion from his coach on his performance. why cant you do that with kungfu? is this a magical boxing method ?

[Knifefighter]

Most coaches in all competitive activities have competed in the past. It is extremely rare to find a wrestling, gymnastics, boxing, basketball, football, baseball, etc coach who has successful athletes and has not competed himself in the past.

[KC Elbows]

You know, the lamest thing is that what I was criticizing was not Ray for bagging on the guy in the vids, I could care less about that guy, but he did not do that, he spoke about all kung fu teachers except his own.

I understand this was not his intent, which was why I pointed it out. Ray and I have no beef with each other, and he's not the kind of lameass who needs a peanut gallery to protect him from common frikkin sense.

My point was, there is a general attitude from some camps that it is not even important to focus at all, bag on all kung fu instructors as if they're all the problem, the ones with fight experience and without, fine, but don't claim then that you respect fighters, because you don't.

Again, I know this was not Ray's intent, so I was making the point that bad word of mouth hurts such people's business, even when they're doing the right thing, especially when it comes from one of the major kung fu forums out there. Wanna bag on someone, get the right people, or drop the claim that you respect fighters when, for your entertainment and fun, you're willing to say things that do less than applaud their efforts, efforts that are in every way superior to these vids.

And again, Ray is still not the kind of lameass who needs a peanut gallery to jump up for him, regardless of their credentials.

Some like to talk about how they respect real fighters when they're their own. That's easy, and it generally has nothing to do with respecting the fact that they are fighters, but about what it says about the one giving the 'respect'. I train with guys who do all sorts of styles, and have no problem giving props, even when it comes from knowing I have to adapt to manage. I'm pretty sure most here, even the one's too willing to broadly make claims about other styles, are like that in reality, at least the relevant ones. Funny how quickly some will still lump people like themselves in with people in these vids.

I've never seen a line of martial arts that benefited long term from being more aware of how to trash talk other styles than how to analyze them.

That said, look forward to Ray's first win.

[David Jamieson]

Most coaches in all competitive activities have competed in the past. It is extremely rare to find a wrestling, gymnastics, boxing, basketball, football, baseball, etc coach who has successful athletes and has not competed himself in the past.

I disagree. It's all too common in my experience. Like I said, they have in many cases dabbled and have a little experience, but many are good at being coaches, know the sport and know the methodology.

There are many coaches who have little applied experience in the field they are coaching, but that does not diminish their ability to coach one bit.

Also, being a former great at something doesn't really count much towards coaching ability. Coaching ability is a whole different skill set.

[KC Elbows]

Most coaches in all competitive activities have competed in the past. It is extremely rare to find a wrestling, gymnastics, boxing, basketball, football, baseball, etc coach who has successful athletes and has not competed himself in the past.

I'm pretty sure that LKFMDC did not have substantial full contact experience before establishing a fight team, and his sanshou team is top level. Additionally, I'm pretty sure most pro coaches were not champs in their fields. You have a good point, but I think your conclusion is not cut and dried, and has rather important exceptions: are they good coaches because they played, or are they good coaches because they have a talent for that that is greater than their talent for the performance of the game?

[Knifefighter]

I disagree. It's all too common in my experience. Like I said, they have in many cases dabbled and have a little experience, but many are good at being coaches, know the sport and know the methodology.

There are many coaches who have little applied experience in the field they are coaching, but that does not diminish their ability to coach one bit.

Also, being a former great at something doesn't really count much towards coaching ability. Coaching ability is a whole different skill set.

You will find very few coaches in any sport at the higher levels who did not have at least a moderate competitive resume. The best coaches were competitors who were not at the highest level, competition-wise, but still have competitive experience.

[taai gihk yahn]

You will find very few coaches in any sport at the higher levels who did not have at least a moderate competitive resume. The best coaches were competitors who were not at the highest level, competition-wise, but still have competitive experience.
yes; on a basic level, the coach needs to have had some direct experience playing, so as to have the "feel" for what he is asking his players to do, and also, he himself (or herself) had to have had the experienced of being coached, which is a skill in and of itself; however, after a certain point, the curve sort of levels off relative to how much experience, and gets replaced by other things such as ability to communicate effectively, organize a structured approach, know when to go w/the gut on things, how to push / inspire players, delegate effectively, tactical knowledge, etc., etc., things that are not necessarily as important when one is a player;

[Knifefighter]

yes; on a basic level, the coach needs to have had some direct experience playing, so as to have the "feel" for what he is asking his players to do, and also, he himself (or herself) had to have had the experienced of being coached, which is a skill in and of itself; however, after a certain point, the curve sort of levels off relative to how much experience, and gets replaced by other things such as ability to communicate effectively, organize a structured approach, know when to go w/the gut on things, how to push / inspire players, delegate effectively, tactical knowledge, etc., etc., things that are not necessarily as important when one is a player;

Exactly... and one thing you won't find among coaches who didn't do it themselves is the demonstration of unrealistic techniques as is shown in so many kung fu demos.

[lkfmdc]

I'm pretty sure that LKFMDC did not have substantial full contact experience



I don't really have intimate knowledge on the subject but my guess would be that LKFMDC did a lot of "fighting" of various degrees (full contact tkd, "knockdown", versions of lei tai, etc) on low levels (ie weekend warriors as opposed to A level amateurs)

but I don't really know ;)

[Yum Cha]

...look at Ross, he's had a couple of sanshou matches, not really much of a career as a fighter, quite a lot of time in with traditional and he trains fighters. In my opinion, for a guy of his age and experience he is becoming more typical of the next gen of kungfu coaches out there with an eye towards competitive fighting.

...

But Kungfu is for life. It is part of your day to day riggings and doings.


I disagree with your perspective. Ross is not the next but amongst the last generation of kung fu coach, he is the first generation (maybe second or third) of MMA coaches.

<sigh> yes grasshopper, the old ways are being lost.....

[KC Elbows]

Exactly... and one thing you won't find among coaches who didn't do it themselves is the demonstration of unrealistic techniques as is shown in so many kung fu demos.

I'm pretty sure a long enough youtube search will find idiots in all corners of life, but you go on believing otherwise. I'll still enjoy your informative posts, even if you must flame away and spend a lot of time omitting giving kudos to the good examples.

[taai gihk yahn]

Exactly... and one thing you won't find among coaches who didn't do it themselves is the demonstration of unrealistic techniques as is shown in so many kung fu demos.

my father is a former Hungarian Olympic basketball player (in the '50's), as well as an international level Team Handball player; he was also trained as a coach at the TF in Budapest and has coached tennis, soccer, gymnastics, fencing, track & field and probably a few other things I am forgetting; he had a nice balance between actively participating with his players, being able to actually show what he wanted them to do, and he had the coaching methodology to organize the big picture; in general, he tended to have a winning record in whatever he did; and had a pretty low opinion of coaches who never had actually played what they were coaching; interestingly, the biggest "problem" he would often have with new players on any of his teams was that they would get annoyed that he wouldn't drill complex plays, he would pretty much stick to basics with a few variations here and there as the situation warranted; so he was pretty much a high-percentage oriented guy...

[t_niehoff]

no his statement was the equivalent of my dad can beat up your dad

unless they actually step up and spar or fight each other arguing for either side is pointless and stupid

You very often don't need to see two people fight to have a really good idea of which of them would win. For instance, in an even (size, weight) match up of aikido practitioners versus muay thai fighters, I'd expect the MT groups to win 99% of the time. So, if my dad did aikido and your dad did muay thai . . .

I think that once you recognize that the bottom line is HOW you've trained (the training methods, the quality of people you regularly spar with, the intensity of the training, etc.) is the major determining factor (leaving aside illness, injury, and those sorts of things) in what you bring to a fight and how prepared you will be for the fight, then you can often get a good idea of which person/group will "win."

Not only that, but you can often tell by past performance (or the lack thereof), who is the better fighter.

[Knifefighter]

I'm pretty sure a long enough youtube search will find idiots in all corners of life, but you go on believing otherwise. I'll still enjoy your informative posts, even if you must flame away and spend a lot of time omitting giving kudos to the good examples.

I always give kudos to the good examples. I've always stuck up for the few examples of full contact WC when the WC guys were saying "That's not good wing chun".

[KC Elbows]

I always give kudos to the good examples. I've always stuck up for the few examples of full contact WC when the WC guys were saying "That's not good wing chun".

True, but when a bad vid pops up, you also generalize, which ends up undoing what good work you did on that unreadable forum.:D

[t_niehoff]

Exactly... and one thing you won't find among coaches who didn't do it themselves is the demonstration of unrealistic techniques as is shown in so many kung fu demos.

A corollary is that when you see a demo of unrealistic techniques by someone it almost always means they never really did it (fought) themselves (since they would then know better).