"Sport fighting" [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ray Pina

10-08-2009, 10:17 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-08-2009, 11:25 AM

The only people that have "issues" with sport fighters are those that have had their clock cleaned by them.
Fighters fight, period.

David Jamieson

10-08-2009, 11:39 AM

join the army.

are you ready?

:D

sanjuro_ronin

10-08-2009, 12:17 PM

ARMY !!
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj156/kaci_lovejoy/armygirl.jpg

xcakid

10-08-2009, 12:41 PM

There is Martial Arts and there is fighting. I think you are confusing the two or perhaps just a lack of understand. The Thai people have realized this many years ago. Muay Thai = Sports. Krabi Kabong = Martial Art

Martial arts encompasses not only the external fighting aspects but also the internal development.

Fighters focuses on fighting.
Martial Arts focuses on fighting, bettering ones self, and focusing on the entire art one is studying. This include traditions, forms, chi gung cultivation, and sometimes traditional medicines.

Edited to add that I have been a fighter in my 20's competing in amateur(kung fu tourneys) Sanda events. I was an average fighter. I recently enjoyed a 15mins of fame as coach when a student of mine won his first match. Currently I have stepped away from being a fighter and concentrating on the art itself. It is much more satisfying than pummeling people or getting pummeled. All the bravado, machismo and ego is now gone. I do what I do and do not need to pummel anyone to prove my worth.

I am better than some, worse that others.

sanjuro_ronin

10-08-2009, 12:45 PM

There is Martial Arts and there is fighting. I think you are confusing the two or perhaps just a lack of understand. The Thai people have realized this many years ago. Muay Thai = Sports. Krabi Kabong = Martial Art

Martial arts encompasses not only the external fighting aspects but also the internal development.

Fighters focuses on fighting.
Martial Arts focuses on fighting, bettering ones self, and focusing on the entire art one is studying. This include traditions, forms, chi gung cultivation, and sometimes traditional medicines.

The MT - Krabi krabong anology is incorrect.
Krabi Krabong is the military version of Muay Boran which of which MT is the sport version.
Krabi deals with swords, sticks, spears even elephants !
Muay Boran is more "combat oriented" than MT in the sense it adresses a more all incompasing form of combat, striking + grappling.
MT is just a limited version of MB.
MT, like any other sport MA, has also non-sport realted moves, ie: illegal techniques that are taught.
I would put my money on a typical MT fighter VS a typical "street fighter" any day.

Lucas

10-08-2009, 12:54 PM

id like to use an elephant in my next fight

Lucas

10-08-2009, 12:55 PM

MT beats even kimbo slice? :eek:

http://earlthebutcher.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/kimbo.jpg

:cool::D

sanjuro_ronin

10-08-2009, 01:02 PM

Not if he is gonna hit anybody with that chain !!

Lucas

10-08-2009, 01:03 PM

lol no doubt. he even has a NO FEAR tattoo....musta got that in the 90's

is kimbo muslim

David Jamieson

10-08-2009, 01:23 PM

lol no doubt. he even has a NO FEAR tattoo....musta got that in the 90's

is kimbo muslim

a. or while drunk.

b. no, he's just ugly

Lucas

10-08-2009, 01:24 PM

a. or while drunk.

b. no, he's just ugly

lol he must be to hide his mug behind THAT beard

uki

10-08-2009, 01:29 PM

There is a revolution going on. We're experiencing the best fighting this world has probably ever seen. Never before have fighters been exposed to so many disciplines... and to excel at them. LMFAO!!!! hahahahahahahahahaha!!!woooohoooohahahahehehehhoho hohoho!!! yeah. awesome. you rock. :rolleyes:

Ray Pina

10-08-2009, 01:44 PM

Fighters focuses on fighting.
Martial Arts focuses on fighting, bettering ones self, and focusing on the entire art one is studying. This include traditions, forms, chi gung cultivation, and sometimes traditional medicines.
.

I don't understand what the differences is. Whether it was Issin-Ryu karate, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Hsing-I, E-Chuan or Brazillian jiu-jitsu, my goal was to absorb as much as I could and be able to use it to defend myself or to be offensive... through that, starting at the age of four, I developed self discipline, I learned all various kinds of forms... including shadow boxing in boxing. They all have their internal methods... from golden turtle, to San Ti, to boxing's breathing and control of water intake... its all a sort of physical body chemistry.

They're all martial arts. They're all there for everyone.

Now, what you have today are a lot of people who like "martial arts" but don't like fighting... that's just the truth. And that's fine.

The bigger issue is, there's a lot of BS schools that will take that person in and in nurture that state of being. Where as if you trained with me or someone like me, through our training, through what we do, you will acquire skills that not only makes you not afraid to fight, but you'll probably enjoy the competitive, physical chess like balls up aspect of it. You learn a lot about yourself. Your emotions. How to control yourself physically and mentally.

So there's no difference. But there's all the difference in the world.

Ray Pina

10-08-2009, 01:55 PM

I am better than some, worse that others.

Here's the thing though, there are scores of Kung Fu sifu, self appointed high levels guys who say the same thing. And its easy to say and move on with,

But what percentage? Honestly?

Are you content being able to beat a good percentage of hobbyists, or do you want to see how deep the skill you speak of really goes.... how do you stack up against the scores of good fighters out there.

Something to think about and put into perspective: Every state has a university with college wrestling team. College level wrestlers. How many of them alone in the US? Forget semi pro and pro boxers. Forget semi pro and pro kick boxers and MMAists. Just collegiate wrestlers.

It's kind of silly then when you see these scrawny a$$ silk pajama dudes who have devoted the past 8 years of their life to form and chi development, or these old chinese push hand champions, claim to be masters? Masters of what? Who would value that other then spineless Americans looking to connect to a ancient warrior culture in the most pacifistic way possible?

Just saying. Let's be real.

Golden Arms

10-08-2009, 02:52 PM

It seems like this type of thread has popped up countless times since pre 2000 on here.

Ray, your views may change over time. One only needs to be proficient in one or two techniques if the other person does not yet realize that a physical interaction is taking place yet. One could be good at 100 and still be in trouble if they are the one that doesnt realize it is taking place. Sport fighting starts with both people knowing and going for it at the same time, and does not involve the possibility of a weapon being presented. Go ask any cop if both parties involved in an altercation generally know that it is taking place at the same time.

That being said, I am the last one to defend most of the people and views I see expressed on this board, I am generally pretty quiet about the fact that I practice CMA, or even MA in general, because of who it tends to associate me with in the minds of others (namely, the "typical martial artist"). The state of MOST MA is sad if you want to use it for survival, IMHO.

Do your thing and crusade with your actions. People have been killing each other as long as there have been people, its pretty unlikely that we are any "better" now or at any time, because as long as we have been people, we have used tools, and in a confrontation, a tool is a weapon.

Ray Pina

10-08-2009, 09:01 PM

One only needs to be proficient in one or two techniques if the other person does not yet realize that a physical interaction is taking place yet. One could be good at 100 and still be in trouble if they are the one that doesnt realize it is taking place. Sport fighting starts with both people knowing and going for it at the same time, and does not involve the possibility of a weapon being presented. Go ask any cop if both parties involved in an altercation generally know that it is taking place at the same time..

Good, true points.

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 01:27 AM

Sitting here doing bong hits reflecting before surfing like I do and it hits me, that there are many here tossing out the term "sport fighting" like its ping pong. Check out this white-dude "mere kick boxer": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY6M1gZ6uMU

Does that seem like play? And that's kick boxing. No dragging someone down and pinning them against the cage and just man handling them with fists, back fists, elbows, knees, forearms.

There is a revolution going on. We're experiencing the best fighting this world has probably ever seen. Never before have fighters been exposed to so many disciplines... and to excel at them.

Hi Ray,

Your comment is a bit of an exaggeration. I am willing to bet that ancient Pankration was much more challenging than today's fights and the fighters tougher than today's fighters. The only forbidden techniques were biting and eye gouging. They fought outside in the dirt and the sand and naked!

Before anyone tries to cited the better condition of today's athletes due to improved training protocols, scientists have already exhumed the body of a noted ancient Olympic athlete and have determined their conditioning was comparable to today's athletes.

There is one noted occasion in the histories of a fighter winning the fight the moment he died from being choked out. He was breaking the toes of his opponent while his opponent was choking him out. His opponent tapped out while he died!

There is another noted event in the histories of Alexander the Great. Alexander was noted for keeping high level individuals such as Philosophers, Artists and Athletes, etc. around him. During one of his parties in Persia there was an argument, similar to the ones many like to have on the board here, between a Soldier and an Olympic Pankration Athlete. The Soldier argued that the Athlete was not a REAL warrior, so the Athlete challenged the Soldier to a fight. Of course the Pankration Athlete made the Soldier submit pretty easily, whereupon the Soldier, in order to demonstrate his point, grabbed a spear and ran the Athlete through. Winner, Soldier, loser, Athlete!

One cannot argue how tough they and what a manly fighter they are, but then not allow for comparisons between open hand fighting and weaponed fighting, one-on-one duels and melees! As long as one allows for exceptions of any kind they are playing by rules. Once one limits the discussion to fighting with rules there can be no clear comparison between the apples and oranges of sport and reality! If you add rules, you are playing, not fighting!

I don't care how tough anyone is in the ring, a bullet or a hammer to the back of the head will take anyone out easily and so much for years and years of training to convince oneself how tough they are! Many times how tough or well trained you are makes no difference at all, all it takes is an idiot with a clever or devious mind and a well executed plan to take you out; I give you David and Goliath!

Another case in point is the ninja vs the samurai. The samurai fought, in many duels anyway, according to some kind of established rules of conduct, they wanted to win with honor, while the ninja were only interested in winning, no matter how it was done and to he!! with honor.

I understand that you, and many others here, enjoy the challenge of fighting to test yourself, but in truth all it would take is an idiot with a gun or car to make it all worthless effort, as far as being tough goes that is!

uki

10-09-2009, 01:58 AM

nice post scott... ray seems to have his head in a bowl of glue when it comes to being "tough" and "sport fighting". :D

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 05:23 AM

Another case in point is the ninja vs the samurai. The samurai fought, in many duels anyway, according to some kind of established rules of conduct, they wanted to win with honor, while the ninja were only interested in winning, no matter how it was done and to he!! with honor.

Ninjas, dude seriously ?
First off all, all the Ninja BS aside, Ninjas were typically samurai, "special ops samurai".
Second, there was no better trained fighter in Japan and, arguably Asia, than the samurai on a one-on-one basis.
They were trained to kill from the moment they could walk.
There were NO rules of conduct in a battle and even in a duel, the only "rule" ( and this was because it was a duel, was "name and linage stating".
This romantized idead of samurai honour and such is of the movies and from post tokugawa era literature.

David Jamieson

10-09-2009, 05:52 AM

Ninjas, dude seriously ?
First off all, all the Ninja BS aside, Ninjas were typically samurai, "special ops samurai".
Second, there was no better trained fighter in Japan and, arguably Asia, than the samurai on a one-on-one basis.
They were trained to kill from the moment they could walk.
There were NO rules of conduct in a battle and even in a duel, the only "rule" ( and this was because it was a duel, was "name and linage stating".
This romantized idead of samurai honour and such is of the movies and from post tokugawa era literature.

well, actually ninja were not samurai. But they did do the dirty work for samurai becaus ethe samurai were honor bound and could not do the dirty work that ninjas did.

samurai were a class of nobility. ninja were hired goons usually skilled in martial arts and various other form of thuggery.

they didn't all run around wearing tabi's being all quiet and such, sometimes they came in the form of a gang of men who did a home invasion and murdered a samurais commander or something so that the samurai could advance in position and rank without having any questions brought to light about his sacred honour.

The whole army of trained assassins is a modern myth and is pretty much 99% crap.

Now, the skills that are offered as ninja training such as ninpo and aido, stealth etc are legit, but there was NEVER and I repeat NEVER an organized and agendized ninja force that was at the disposal of the japanese upper class.

They were generally lowlifes who couldn't be connected to the nobility who carried out the dishonourable deeds of the upper classes.

Kinda like going to a seedy bar and finding some unscrupulous person and hiring them to do a criminal job for you.

In short, ninjas were the scum of society and that's why they functioned in teh shadows. They had NO honour at all.

Please don't believe the nonsense american ninja crap mythology it is 100% crap and was born of idealizing silly movies and fairytales.

not saying anything is wrong with the karate those people do, just saying they wrap it all up in a tale of nonsense that any amateur historian researcher can completely tear apart in about 3 minutes. lol

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 05:59 AM

well, actually ninja were not samurai. But they did do the dirty work for samurai becaus ethe samurai were honor bound and could not do the dirty work that ninjas did.

samurai were a class of nobility. ninja were hired goons usually skilled in martial arts and various other form of thuggery.

they didn't all run around wearing tabi's being all quiet and such, sometimes they came in the form of a gang of men who did a home invasion and murdered a samurais commander or something so that the samurai could advance in position and rank without having any questions brought to light about his sacred honour.

The whole army of trained assassins is a modern myth and is pretty much 99% crap.

Now, the skills that are offered as ninja training such as ninpo and aido, stealth etc are legit, but there was NEVER and I repeat NEVER an organized and agendized ninja force that was at the disposal of the japanese upper class.

They were generally lowlifes who couldn't be connected to the nobility who carried out the dishonourable deeds of the upper classes.

Kinda like going to a seedy bar and finding some unscrupulous person and hiring them to do a criminal job for you.

In short, ninjas were the scum of society and that's why they functioned in teh shadows. They had NO honour at all.

Please don't believe the nonsense american ninja crap mythology it is 100% crap and was born of idealizing silly movies and fairytales.

not saying anything is wrong with the karate those people do, just saying they wrap it all up in a tale of nonsense that any amateur historian researcher can completely tear apart in about 3 minutes. lol

Ninja, those that did stealth work and espionage, came origianly from the samurai ranks, koryu systems such as the various branches of the Shinkage and the TSKSR all have ninjutsu as part of their original curriculm and it was taught to samurai.
Sure there was "low class" ninjas. just as there were low class samurai.
Samurai were NOT nobility, they were a warrior class.

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 06:27 AM

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 06:39 AM

nice post scott... ray seems to have his head in a bowl of glue when it comes to being "tough" and "sport fighting". :D

So I should believe that some drunken form dude who plays with fake weapons would be willing to fight me with baseball bats or pipes and no rules.... but he won't go a few rounds with gloves?

No rules apply to both people. I'm guessing the more aggressive person, that fights regularly for fun and/or money would go further easier then the person unaccustomed to violence.

You're talking to me as if I didn't spend over 10 years in Kwoons. Some Hung Gar form champion asked to borrow my saber in class one day and I warned him it was real, to be careful. The fool split his thumb down the middle testing the edge. No one would use it because it was heavy and sharp. < ----- that's your Kung Fu weapon's expert.

I'm actually fed up with this argument.

You guys are right. You're all very dangerous men.

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 06:55 AM

the point is samurai "in general" followed a code of conduct.....ninja did not. REAL winners break the rules to win because winning is the MOST important thing, NOT winning according to arbitrary rules that do nothing other than interfer with the goal. ESPECIALLY in matters of killing!

Nonsense.
Duels were prearranged combative matches, you can't compare them to what the samurai did in wartime or on the battlefield.
Breaking "rules" is as easy as cutting pie.

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 07:53 AM

You guys are right. You're all very dangerous men.

That is one of the points Ray:

1) Everyone has the potential to be more dangerous than you! Especially if they really want to kill you or hurt you. And if they really want too kill you or hurt you, they aren't going to play around with rules and gloves. They will ensure that they will win and you will lose no matter what....and that means, sneaking, ganging up on you, getting you drunk first, sniping you, running over you with their car, etc. If you knew any REAL bad guys you would know that. I worked in a prison for 12 years, I have known wannabe wusses, and REALLY, REALLY BAD DUDES!! The bad dudes REALLY did the things I said they would do, and worse things I don't mention. While you think you are laughing at wannabes here, they would be laughing at you and calling you a wannabe!

2) You are not nearly as "dangerous" or "tough" as you think you are! You come off as a very insecure person with something to prove to yourself and everyone else. I say this because you have been going on and on about the same thing ever since you have been on this board.

If you were truly confident in your postition, why do you care what anyone else thinks. Just quietly do your thing, and F everyone else!

Hopefully you will never meet up with anyone who wants to eat your spleen for dinner and you can go on living in your own little fantasy just like everyone else does.

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 08:02 AM

Nonsense.
Duels were prearranged combative matches, you can't compare them to what the samurai did in wartime or on the battlefield.
Breaking "rules" is as easy as cutting pie.

Sanjuro....that is my point, duels are prearrange encounters with rules of conduct....the real world of winning does not. Of course the samurai broke the rules in battle, but many times they did so behind the scenes so they could maintain an outward appearance of honor!

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 08:10 AM

Sanjuro....that is my point, duels are prearrange encounters with rules of conduct....the real world of winning does not. Of course the samurai broke the rules in battle, but many times they did so behind the scenes so they could maintain an outward appearance of honor!

I think your notion of samurai honour is a bit, well, movie oriented.
The code of Bushido was more an invention of the late 17th century than of the apex of samurai warfare.
Sneak attacks, surprise attacks, poisons and betrayals were common place and done openly.

uki

10-09-2009, 08:19 AM

So I should believe that some drunken form dude who plays with fake weapons would be willing to fight me with baseball bats or pipes and no rules.... but he won't go a few rounds with gloves? first... if you are implying that i play with fake weapons i can assure you you are truly misguided in your assumption... secondly you have to remember that going a few rounds with gloves is far different than defending your life or your childrens life.

I'm guessing the more aggressive person, that fights regularly for fun and/or money would go further easier then the person unaccustomed to violence.and you are this aggressive man accostomed to violence?? what is your day job? aren't you the guy who tells people to lower their eyes in the event of a confrontation - if i remember correctly you got beat up a few time with pipes and stuff and now you walk around and lower your eyes... you justify it because you had to swallow your pride, yet perhaps your pride was the reason for your beat down?? LOL... each to their own man, but i will look death straight in the eye, you know why?? cuz i don't effing care, that's why. i have dignity and will meet my aggressors face to face when the time comes.

You're talking to me as if I didn't spend over 10 years in Kwoons.and you speak to me as if you do not believe 1000 years of experience can manifest in an instant...

Some Hung Gar form champion asked to borrow my saber in class one day and I warned him it was real, to be careful. The fool split his thumb down the middle testing the edge. No one would use it because it was heavy and sharp. < ----- that's your Kung Fu weapon's expert. my god you are such a dangerous dude!!! LOL... i have cut myself plenty practicing with my sharp swords and you know what?? i sew myself back together again by hand(have you yet?) and keep on practicing and learning from my mistakes...

I'm actually fed up with this argument.that is simply because you take it too personally... who ****ing cares? really?

You guys are right. You're all very dangerous men.amen brother... now you are getting somewhere. :D

That is one of the points Ray:

1) Everyone has the potential to be more dangerous than you! Especially if they really want to kill you or hurt you. And if they really want too kill you or hurt you, they aren't going to play around with rules and gloves. They will ensure that they will win and you will lose no matter what....and that means, sneaking, ganging up on you, getting you drunk first, sniping you, running over you with their car, etc. If you knew any REAL bad guys you would know that. I worked in a prison for 12 years, I have known wannabe wusses, and REALLY, REALLY BAD DUDES!! The bad dudes REALLY did the things I said they would do, and worse things I don't mention. While you think you are laughing at wannabes here, they would be laughing at you and calling you a wannabe!

2) You are not nearly as "dangerous" or "tough" as you think you are! You come off as a very insecure person with something to prove to yourself and everyone else. I say this because you have been going on and on about the same thing ever since you have been on this board.

If you were truly confident in your postition, why do you care what anyone else thinks. Just quietly do your thing, and F everyone else!

Hopefully you will never meet up with anyone who wants to eat your spleen for dinner and you can go on living in your own little fantasy just like everyone else does.all i can say if wow. nice effing post man. he'll be able to poop a block truck after that ripping... :p

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 08:22 AM

I think your notion of samurai honour is a bit, well, movie oriented.
The code of Bushido was more an invention of the late 17th century than of the apex of samurai warfare.
Sneak attacks, surprise attacks, poisons and betrayals were common place and done openly.

They were not "always" done in the open, and when they were it was considered socially unacceptable just as it is today, except perhaps amongst ones private group of friends!

The ideal of honor occurred primarily on a personal level. Just because not everyone had a sense of honor does not mean no one did! It was no different than it is today and in every other society in history. There is the "official" socially accepted ideal of appropriate behavior that was demonstrated to the public, and the real-life underhanded dealings that do not see the light of day.

Which is again my point....those who really want to win, don't care about rules and honor, except outward appearance to the public, all they care about is winning!

Perhaps you would benefit by reading a comprehensive historical account of the Battle of Sekigahara.

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 08:34 AM

They were not "always" done in the open, and when they were it was considered socially unacceptable just as it is today, except perhaps amongst ones private group of friends!

The ideal of honor occurred primarily on a personal level. Just because not everyone had a sense of honor does not mean no one did! It was no different than it is today and in every other society in history. There is the "official" socially accepted ideal of appropriate behavior that was demonstrated to the public, and the real-life underhanded dealings that do not see the light of day.

Which is again my point....those who really want to win, don't care about rules and honor, except outward appearance to the public, all they care about is winning!

Perhaps you would benefit by reading a comprehensive historical account of the Battle of Sekigahara.

I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 08:39 AM

I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.

LOL!! I agree, so are Politicians, but that doesn't mean there are not public ideals of socially acceptable behavior "separate" from the REAL hidden reality!

sanjuro_ronin

10-09-2009, 08:50 AM

LOL!! I agree, so are Politicians, but that doesn't mean there are not public ideals of socially acceptable behavior "separate" from the REAL hidden reality!

LOL, can't argue with that there !!

uki

10-09-2009, 10:17 AM

Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.just like every case of people given too much power without having a responsible merit...

David Jamieson

10-09-2009, 11:04 AM

I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.

Indeed. But they're reign spanned some 700 years in Japan.

There was a time in their history when they, as a class exuded virtue.

With time, everything rots, rusts or becomes corrupted.

Except essences. Which are not material. :)

muwhahahaha.

uki

10-09-2009, 11:07 AM

Except essences. Which are not material.reminds me of a mushroom spore...

muwhahahaha.they say laughter is the best medicine... apparently a healthy intellect is beneficial.

Lucas

10-09-2009, 11:08 AM

well i can tell you guys from experience, ninjas are the baddest dudes, cuz im a ninja, and i know these things. id give you video evidence, but im so ninja, i dont show up on film.

or wait....was that vampires....

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 11:40 AM

Forget the past. I'm really getting a good chuckle out of the present.... now these guys are swordsmen:) They're starting to give up on the stand up thing (there big names won't go fight) so now they need to be feared and respected for their swordplay.

These guys are no more swordsmen then they are pugilists.

uki

10-09-2009, 11:51 AM

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 11:55 AM

LOL... you are a more transparent than a plane of glass...

I call 'em like I see 'em.

uki

10-09-2009, 11:58 AM

I call 'em like I see 'em.take off the sunglasses next time...

goju

10-09-2009, 12:55 PM

xcakid

10-09-2009, 01:27 PM

Now, what you have today are a lot of people who like "martial arts" but don't like fighting... that's just the truth. And that's fine.

Agreed.

Are you content being able to beat a good percentage of hobbyists, or do you want to see how deep the skill you speak of really goes.... how do you stack up against the scores of good fighters out there.

Just saying. Let's be real.

Well if its a real fight we are talking about, my martial arts is good enough to where it will give me enough distance and/or time to pull out my gun and actually shoot my assailant. Been in a couple of street fights and faired well. Have yet to pull out my carry weapon though, but I could've.

In the ring, well, I've had my good days, and I've had my bad days.

But I do agree with your point. There are many schools out there that forget the fighting aspect of martial arts. Vice versa there are many schools out there that forget the other aspects of fighting.

Been like that since I started in martial arts. I am sure it will be like that after I die.

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 02:03 PM

But I do agree with your point. There are many schools out there that forget the fighting aspect of martial arts. Vice versa there are many schools out there that forget the other aspects of fighting.

Been like that since I started in martial arts. I am sure it will be like that after I die.

That's a good point. In the end, there's plenty of everything out there. It's up to us as individual martial artists.

I myself am going to purchase my first gun with my next pay check. I want to learn how to maintain it safely and obviously use it accurately. Looking forward to it. In the past I've learned some weaponry but never focused on it. Always so much to learn standing. Now there's so much to learn about grappling. So many possiblities.

uki

10-09-2009, 02:09 PM

I myself am going to purchase my first gun with my next pay check. I want to learn how to maintain it safely and obviously use it accurately. Looking forward to it. In the past I've learned some weaponry but never focused on it. Always so much to learn standing. Now there's so much to learn about grappling. So many possiblities.get a 12 gauge browning auto-5, semi-automatic shotgun. 000 buckshot packs 8 shot at 0.36 inches in diameter, 00 is a 9 at 0.33. it's all about the quantity when you have the quality. i practice with 1oz slugs on bricks at 50 yards, open, with no glasses for near-sightedness... of course you cannot legally conceal it, but it will still feed your family regardless...

bawang

10-09-2009, 02:55 PM

Sanjuro....that is my point, duels are prearrange encounters with rules of conduct....the real world of winning does not. Of course the samurai broke the rules in battle, but many times they did so behind the scenes so they could maintain an outward appearance of honor!

i agree with ray that many kung fu arent good. im not good. western martial arts, everything white people do is superior to chinese peopel. you are right every thing you do is better. you have better martial arts you have better cars you have a penus so big. im just not interested in mma.
you walk your road i walk my road. we all sleep take a sh1t then die. just do what you want and stop worrying about other people. if they arent important to you why cares?

goju

10-09-2009, 02:57 PM

Agreed.

Well if its a real fight we are talking about, my martial arts is good enough to where it will give me enough distance and/or time to pull out my gun and actually shoot my assailant. Been in a couple of street fights and faired well. Have yet to pull out my carry weapon though, but I could've.

In the ring, well, I've had my good days, and I've had my bad days.

But I do agree with your point. There are many schools out there that forget the fighting aspect of martial arts. Vice versa there are many schools out there that forget the other aspects of fighting.

Been like that since I started in martial arts. I am sure it will be like that after I die.

and thats because the overwhelming majority of people do not wish to fight or train hard they just want to dabble abit for an hour here and there in their free time

alot of older masters commented on how when they came to north america they taught in a real brutal realistic fashion but everyone quit right away because the training was too hard for them so they had to water it down for people or they would go out of buisness

bawang

10-09-2009, 03:01 PM

alot of older masters commented on how when they came to north america they taught in a real brutal realistic fashion but everyone quit right away because the training was too hard for them so they had to water it down for people or they would go out of buisness

if you dont teach for monies then you wouldnt have this problem. next gerneation of kung fu people young people, we need to stop teaching for money

in china if someone trains for 10 years their fist big is like a big pot. here people train for 30 years they are still flabby like a hippo or seal and many other sea animals. some time its body type i can understand, but i think many are lazy
if everybody stopped thinking about g ay forms and start practiceing basics we wouldnt be having this conversation on the internet

i have many many times kung fu people disrespect me because i dont know forms. u can eaily learn form on youtube or dvd.

goju

10-09-2009, 03:41 PM

oh i dont believe all the time its for money its just as that saying goes "you think its hard to find a good master try finding a good student":D

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 04:15 PM

get a 12 gauge browning auto-5, semi-automatic shotgun. 000 buckshot packs 8 shot at 0.36 inches in diameter, 00 is a 9 at 0.33. it's all about the quantity when you have the quality. i practice with 1oz slugs on bricks at 50 yards, open, with no glasses for near-sightedness... of course you cannot legally conceal it, but it will still feed your family regardless...

Was thinking of starting with a 12 gauge (I've shot skeet with my little bro) and a nice, reliable, pistol. Though my gangster friends down here keep telling me how bada$$ the Tech-9 is.

Lucas

10-09-2009, 04:38 PM

the homies always been fond of the tec-9, ive always been partial to a nice revolver as far as pistolas go. shotty i like mossberg 500/590 series (a military 10k round test survivor)

S&W 625

http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/sw625.jpeg

mossberg 590a1
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/2.gif

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 07:15 PM

i agree with ray that many kung fu arent good.

I agree too, but most people don't have to be good. Yeah a lot of people think they are tough when they aren't, but that is just a guy thing along with posturing and boasting. It is part testosterone and part insecurity. If someone wants to posture and boast, that is their thing, let 'em do it. It's not the end of the world. I don't care if someone trains to fight, or trains to dance, or trains because they think it is spiritual, or trains for the fitness, etc. We all have our own fantasies in life. My fantasy is no better or worse than yours or Ray's or anyone elses.

When I worked in the prison psych ward I had an inmate that thought he was a ninja. He was in prison because his girl friend broke up with him so he hid in her attic dressed in his ninja garb. When she came home with her new boy friend, he dropped down through the ceiling and cut them up with a sword, LOL!! No one died, but he was trying to live his fantasy. His MA was crap, but he lived in his own fantasy. Not everyone goes to this extreme, but everyone has their own fantasy about life and their self-image. There is nothing good or bad about it, it just is.

Ray's argument, as it is with most people, is he doesn't like the fantasy that other people have about themselves and their MA, but it is more profitable for him to identify his own fantasies and just let other people have theirs.

By the way I like Ray...he is a good guy, but he is young and idealistic about his path. He just needs to allow other people their own fantasy, just as he wants to have his own.

By the, by the way, most people think that it is other people that live in a fantasy world, they don't recognize their own and that in itself demonstrates they live in a fantasy world!

and thats because the overwhelming majority of people do not wish to fight or train hard they just want to dabble abit for an hour here and there in their free time

alot of older masters commented on how when they came to north america they taught in a real brutal realistic fashion but everyone quit right away because the training was too hard for them so they had to water it down for people or they would go out of buisness

Yeah, most people don't want to train hard enough to be really good. It hurts a lot and our society does not generally reward aggressive manly behavior anymore. It scares people. Consider the fear the generally society has about MMA fighting. It is too aggressive for "civilized" sensibilities! Tough strong men make the weak and insecure fear for their safety!

We can thank the hippies for that! We live in a pu$$y society. Pu$$y societies eventually get taken over by the manly ones, like the Taliban. If they had our technology and population, we would all be Muslim now!

oh i dont believe all the time its for money its just as that saying goes "you think its hard to find a good master try finding a good student":D

Yup! No one wants to train hard, and many of the ones that do, want to be like a movie martial artist. They don't understand that REAL training is hard and painful and takes years!

Ray Pina

10-09-2009, 07:21 PM

Scott, you're really smart.

And you don't want to know the fantasies I have:p

Scott R. Brown

10-09-2009, 07:24 PM

Scott, you're really smart.

And you don't want to know the fantasies I have:p

LOL!! Thank you for not sharing them! But feel free to post the pics like sanjuro does!:D

uki

10-10-2009, 01:12 AM

LOL!! Thank you for not sharing them! otherwise you might have to start walking around with poop in yer pants... :p

IronWeasel

10-10-2009, 08:22 AM

We can thank the hippies for that! We live in a pu$$y society. Pu$$y societies eventually get taken over by the manly ones, like the Taliban. If they had our technology and population, we would all be Muslim now!

The Taliban is also a Pu$$y society. If they posed any kind of credible threat, they would have been eliminated.

...poppy field growing heroin dealers...:rolleyes:

SIFU RON

10-10-2009, 08:44 AM

Does that seem like play? And that's kick boxing. No dragging someone down and pinning them against the cage and just man handling them with fists, back fists, elbows, knees, forearms.

This guy is a good fighter, body shots work wonders in a fight, left handed strong hitters are dangerous, this fellow has been well trained.

Hebrew Hammer

10-10-2009, 09:22 AM

i agree with ray that many kung fu arent good. im not good. western martial arts, everything white people do is superior to chinese peopel. you are right every thing you do is better. you have better martial arts you have better cars you have a penus so big. im just not interested in mma.
you walk your road i walk my road. we all sleep take a sh1t then die. just do what you want and stop worrying about other people. if they arent important to you why cares?

LOLOLOLOL that just made my morning. :D

TenTigers

10-10-2009, 10:02 AM

and thats because the overwhelming majority of people do not wish to fight or train hard they just want to dabble abit for an hour here and there in their free time

alot of older masters commented on how when they came to north america they taught in a real brutal realistic fashion but everyone quit right away because the training was too hard for them so they had to water it down for people or they would go out of buisness

face it, real Gung-Fu is boring and tedious and hard. Nobody practices lien-gung anymore. How many students would stay in a school that made them do mostly conditioning and hard trainng first, rather than instant gratification stuff?

Ray Pina

10-10-2009, 01:03 PM

Shaking off fantasies for reality:

In reality, if you study Hung Gar or Wing Chun or Issin-Ryu or Hsing-I or Southern Mantis you are studying a school of combat. That's what they were created for.
Each school will have its own way to develop, protect themselves and heal. Whether its pad work or bag work or the makawara or wrapping your hands or using jow or an ice bath.... the point is to develop a human weapon.

In reality, Chinese medicine and five element theory is its own school of study.

In reality, Chan Buddhism and Taoist are their own school of studies.

In reality, I know a Hsing-I player who is a western doctor. He learned his Hsing-I from my master and medicine at University. I don't know his spiritual beliefs.

In reality, a martial artists could be many things, like I am a surfer, writer and musician. I also happen to be a Taoist. Not everyone can be a real martial artists. And unfortunately we have to use the distinction "real" these days.

Martial arts are for combat. I'll maintain that until I die. To say that is fantasy is to say that swimming is for health or meditation or self improvement, when it can provide those things but it is to keep you from drowning. You want to survive in deep water you need swimming. To survive in combat you need specific training. We call THAT training martial arts.

TenTigers

10-10-2009, 01:43 PM

Shaking off fantasies for reality:

I also happen to be a Taoist.

cool. What type of Taoist are you? How did you become one?

Ray Pina

10-10-2009, 03:43 PM

I'm the kind that is mindful of what I think and say, trying to live with intention and focus. I try to live naturally (food, clothes, sleeping), and according to my intuition.

I like to smoke weed and surf, train and fight.

Scott R. Brown

10-10-2009, 04:37 PM

Shaking off fantasies for reality:....To survive in combat you need specific training. We call THAT training martial arts.

YOU call it "martial arts" Ray, it is your definition, and some others too! That you do not agree with the definition others use for the term and apparently believe "your" definition is the only valid one, i IS your fantasy, at least one of them.

I personally call training to fight, "combat training", but I don't insist that others adhere to my personal definition. I don't care what others call it, I don't care whether others think they are tough or not, I don't care whether someone trains to dance, stay fit, or fight and still call their practice "martial arts". I let others have their own definitions that work for them.....THAT is following Tao, not imposing your own fantasies/definitions of life on to others or insisting that your own definition is the only true one.

dirtyrat

10-10-2009, 11:14 PM

Shaking off fantasies for reality:

I like to smoke weed...

fascinating..... ;)

uki

10-11-2009, 05:02 AM

I'm the kind that is mindful of what I think and say, trying to live with intention and focus. I try to live naturally (food, clothes, sleeping), and according to my intuition. now you could do better at being mindful on what you are trying and not doing...

I like to smoke weed and surf, train and fight.so these are the qualities that make one a taoist??

if you are a taoist that can be called a taoist, you are then not a taoist. :p

fascinating...yes it is... nature provides some of the coolest stuff!! :D

Ray Pina

10-11-2009, 07:11 AM

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 08:18 AM

Hi Ray,

When one clings to a fixed definition one is bound by chains created by that clinging, chains created by their own mind.

Remember, Lao says, "Tao that can be fixed/defined is not Tao!", and all things participate in Tao!

While everyone has the freedom to cling or not cling as they choose, there are consequences to be enjoyed by each choice!

I recommend, as do masters of Ch'an and Tao, to avoid clinging to fixed definitions.

Ray Pina

10-11-2009, 08:37 AM

Now you're trying to use your intelligence to shift words and meanings to fit your world view.

Things are defined so we have understanding. I go to a "doctor" in good faith that he has received the training to help me. Any bozo who has popped a few aspirin or applied a few band aids should not claim that title.... though interestingly enough there's no shortage of "martial artists" who claim to be "doctors" and apparently know $hit about either subject.

I use to be an intellectual, literary type myself but became bored with it. Too much talk. Too much back and forth with nothing being accomplished.

How I train martial arts, the methods I employ are not fixed. The styles and even the people I train with are not fixed.... the goal remains the same as when I started at 4 years old. To beat the people I face and not be beat by them. To continually face better people.

To cling or not to cling and fixed definitions and consequences are just words dancing around the reality that we're discussing. But I will say this, the Kung Fu people clinging to their alternative reality definition of martial arts, are in fact ruining the thing that they claim.

What is western boxing without head punching and knock outs? Once you make a thing that requires roughness and toughness delicate so softer men will participate you have changed that thing. The people you refer to are not martial artists though they claim to be. It is as plain to me as two people standing 10 feet apart throwing punches into the air are not boxing.

It is so basic and elemental it baffles me that this conversation even needs to take place.

Ultimately, they're not hurting martial arts. The world has seen enough now to know. They're hurting Kung Fu. It's a laughing stock. It's pathetic and weak. Its pajama ninjas in a system where ninjas did not exist before. It's fake weaponry in the hands of children and immature men.

I don't say these things to be mean. I say them as a slap in the face to wake up the sleeping.

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 08:54 AM

TenTigers

10-11-2009, 09:39 AM

But I will say this, the Kung Fu people clinging to their alternative reality definition of martial arts, are in fact ruining the thing that they claim.

Ultimately, they're not hurting martial arts. The world has seen enough now to know. They're hurting Kung Fu. It's a laughing stock. It's pathetic and weak. Its pajama ninjas in a system where ninjas did not exist before. It's fake weaponry in the hands of children and immature men.

1)Not just Kung-Fu. also Isshinryu, goju ryu, shotokan,TKD, etc, etc.
You have a sore spot for Kung-Fu, because of your past failed relationships with your former Sifus, (which you yourself have blogged on this very forum)-thus you still feel you need to prove something to them. You are still carrying that negativity, while they have long forgotten you and moved on.
(realize that you only spent a couple of years at their schools, while they have been teaching for decades. Thousands of people have walked through their doors, come and gone. You are just one more. Nothing else.)

"Holding a grudge is like taking poison, and waiting for the other person to die."

"...I left her at the stream. Whay are you still carrying her?"-if you know the Buddhist parable.

2) do not mistake a small group of ignorant children on Martial Arts internet forums as representative of "the Whole World." This is a very, very small group. Most of the posters are not knowledgeable, experienced, or over 25. There are hundreds of thousands of people practicing MA, who do not share your World View. Most aren't even aware of it.
There are however, many people who have much, much more experience and knowledge than you or I, and don't think for a second, you are "waking" any of them up to your reality.

Ray-stay with it. But realize that Martial Arts (like enlightenment) is a very personal journey. Sometimes we meet kindered spirits and walk the same path with them, if even for a short while. But the path we walk, we walk alone. You cannot pull others onto your path.

dirtyrat

10-11-2009, 10:04 AM

yes it is... nature provides some of the coolest stuff!! :D

:Dtoo true:cool:

Ray Pina

10-11-2009, 11:05 AM

Unfortunately Ray, you do not understand that it is you that is sleeping.

If you cannot understand that what I have written is simplicity, perhaps you should cease considering yourself a Taoist, or perhaps study/contemplate/experience Tao more. What I wrote is not complicated. It is your own mind, your own insistence on fixation, that is complicating things!

Maybe you're right. Because I admit I don't see it.

As for my trouble's with kung fu. I still have a relationship with my master. I spoke to him last week. It was time for me to go. He had so much more to teach me and hopefully one day I'll learn it but I had to go out and be with fighters. I got maybe 3 or 4 more years physically. I hope longer. But I'm giving myself that. I'll be ready to fight again in three months. I'm close to wining.

Karate. The karate I seen. Maybe it was that I was lucky enough to catch it in the late 70s', when guys still had ponytails and were punching each other in the mouth in the black belt division. Those were my heroes. There were a lot of them. We kids mostly didn't wear anything, but it was full go to the body with legs and kicks. Bloody noses happened. It was great.

The problems I've had with Kung Fu, are exactly as they have been stated here: There's some good $hit to learn but ultimately you run into the dead-end, as someone really interested in THEIR martial art, with a lot of moderately-skilled loudmouths that won't fight you. So you drill to death and get an understanding of the thing but you'll never OWN it, until you do it to someone who's really trying to hurt you. Not help you. Ironically, those people help you the best.

I've seen some good kung fu. I think the trapping and counters are awesome. I love my master's leg kicks and I use his jamming/striking all the time. The problem is it only puts down weak fighters. After a few times good fighters get hip to it and have to change. But my side kick is coming back.... in reality, I'm mad at what Kung Fu took away from me all those years.

Bunch of $hit talkers. Good technique.... but do something.

^ That's how I feel as a weed smoking, wave surfing, a$$ kicking Taoist. Word.

uki

10-11-2009, 11:12 AM

Martial arts or fighting arts[1] are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. While they may be studied for various reasons, martial arts share a single objective: to physically defeat other persons and to defend oneself or others from physical threat. That is literally the definition of martial arts. okay... so are you implying that we on the boards do not grasp the art of war?? i'd give a hardy chuckle to think a little surfer dude from the bahamas vicinity thinks somehow has aquired a greater understanding of the "martial arts".

The folks you refer to can twist it to mean anything they want if it makes them feel better. That's fine. But they're living in the fantasy.no fantasy here ray... mess with my family or myself and you're a dead man - not just you, but anyone. i don't see how you can classify that belief as a fantasy...

I didn't need the dictionary to know this. I know this by the way they talk. The things they say reveals that they know very little of the realities of combat and how to prepare for them.please... i am dying for you psychological evaluation of me. whenever you are ready doctor... :p

This is the problem I have. The guy who fixes the golf cart or holds the clubs or keeps the greens well kept is not the golfer. The guy hitting the ball is. i must say, you are pretty observant. :rolleyes:

Martial artists fight. <-------- (period).only if they have to. :)

Now you're trying to use your intelligence to shift words and meanings to fit your world view. he's not trying - he's doing.

Things are defined so we have understanding. I go to a "doctor" in good faith that he has received the training to help me. Any bozo who has popped a few aspirin or applied a few band aids should not claim that title.... though interestingly enough there's no shortage of "martial artists" who claim to be "doctors" and apparently know $hit about either subject.and what do you know about?? lowering your eyes?? walking with a tucked tail from wounded pride? you think because you fight in a ring that somehow you are superiour to those who do not?? LOL... as far as i can remember you lose in the ring, on the street, and on the internet forum boards.

I use to be an intellectual, literary type myself but became bored with it. Too much talk. Too much back and forth with nothing being accomplished. How I train martial arts, the methods I employ are not fixed. The styles and even the people I train with are not fixed.... the goal remains the same as when I started at 4 years old. To beat the people I face and not be beat by them. To continually face better people. you know they say that a violent man will die a violent death... looking for fights is a violent action ray.

To cling or not to cling and fixed definitions and consequences are just words dancing around the reality that we're discussing. But I will say this, the Kung Fu people clinging to their alternative reality definition of martial arts, are in fact ruining the thing that they claim. is this an attempt to sound all taoisty??

What is western boxing without head punching and knock outs? Once you make a thing that requires roughness and toughness delicate so softer men will participate you have changed that thing. The people you refer to are not martial artists though they claim to be. It is as plain to me as two people standing 10 feet apart throwing punches into the air are not boxing. *sigh*

It is so basic and elemental it baffles me that this conversation even needs to take place. and yet here you are attempting to perpetuate it even further...

Ultimately, they're not hurting martial arts. The world has seen enough now to know. They're hurting Kung Fu. It's a laughing stock. It's pathetic and weak. Its pajama ninjas in a system where ninjas did not exist before. It's fake weaponry in the hands of children and immature men. you lack even the ability to define kung fu... LOL... you are the immature kiddo.

I don't say these things to be mean. I say them as a slap in the face to wake up the sleeping.so did you have a back up plan for the return b!tchslap?? com'on ray... you are living in the fantasy world. :p

TenTigers

10-11-2009, 11:23 AM

"I've seen some good kung fu. I think the trapping and counters are awesome. I love my master's leg kicks and I use his jamming/striking all the time. The problem is it only puts down weak fighters. After a few times good fighters get hip to it and have to change"

That's a sport mentality, which isn't bad, if that's what you want. If you were fighting for self-defense, there should never be "after a few times," you should have stayed in and finshed. End of story.

]^ That's how I feel as a weed smoking, wave surfing, a$$ kicking Taoist. Word.

Now, THIS I like!:cool:

uki

10-11-2009, 12:43 PM

Bunch of $hit talkers. Good technique.... but do something.sometimes the techinque is sooo good there is nothing to be done. :D

got taoism?

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 02:37 PM

Here is a suggestion Ray,

The thing is, all you do is engage in controlled duels and "call" it combat! What you need to do in order to get some real experience with really "bad guys" is a few of the following:

1) Go to a big city and work in a shady bar/dance club as a bouncer. You will learn social skills in order to avoid being clubbed with bottles and slashed by knives when you are not looking. You will have plenty of opportunity to use your skills. The down side is that most of them will be with drunk guys, but at least they will challenge you by being sneaky, and sometimes really big.

2) Go to Europe and participate in a few soccer thug melees. This will give you a taste of fighting in large groups with the attending "idiot group behavior" like being group stomped.

3) Get a job in a big city police department, in a big city county jail or in a bad state prison. The advantage here is you will be dealing with REAL criminals. The ones who will be happy to hand you your head on a platter and don't care they will have to spend years in prison as a consequence. I knew an inmate that threw another inmate off the second tier KNOWING he would be shot for doing so. When I took care of him in the hospital he said the 9mm glaser round to the leg was not as bad as the .45 cal he took on the street. The advantage, again, is people who don't care what the consequences are of getting to each other or to you. I recommend a level 3 prison, not a level 4 because these prisons generally rock-and-roll everyday. You will get a lot of experience wrestling bigger guys and nuts, You will also risk getting clubbed or slashed without warning. And I know personally correctional officers that this has happened too! One had his throat slit, and missed dying by a quarter of an inch, another has had his arm broken and on a second occasion years later his leg broken by inmates, a third was clubbed from behind...I could go on, but I think you get the point.

4) Join the marines and go to Afghanistan. THAT is some REAL fighting, REAL combat. Until your life is on the line in battle all you are is a wannabe, martial artist Ray. The REAL martial artists are the ones whose lives are in the balance when they lose!

5) The best one is for last, join a mercenary force in a tumultuous African nation. Preferably one with gangs/tribes that attack each other with axes and machetes. The risks and advantages should be self-evident here!

You talk big and like to criticize others thinking you know better and are the real deal, but in reality Ray you are just a wannabe like everyone else you criticize. If you really want to do, stop playing around with pu$$y controlled duels and really put your life and limb on the line in REAL dangerous situations! Do that for five or more years, Then come back here and lets see what you have learned.

I am willing to bet you will be a bit more humble by then!

But in reality, I am willing to bet you won't do any of that. You will find a reason not too, just like you criticize others who do not train the way you THINK they should.

Well put your money where your mouth is and do something REALLY dangerous and stop playing around with controlled duels!

I am being direct here Ray, but remember I respect your intentions, but you are too young and too mouthy to know what you are talking about. It is time to grow up and REALLY challenge yourself with some REAL life experience!

uki

10-11-2009, 02:48 PM

LOL... once i was wasted drunk and i walked into a passing van when i was in galway, ireland...

Ray Pina

10-11-2009, 03:09 PM

That's a sport mentality, which isn't bad, if that's what you want. If you were fighting for self-defense, there should never be "after a few times," you should have stayed in and finshed. End of story.:

That's the problem I had: Sifu's, high-level guys, implying things like that. Go fight somebody who's well trained and prepared and see if you finish the thing so clean and neat in one move.

As for my living in Puerto Rico, I deserve it. I grew up working for everything I got in not so great places. I've never lost a fight on the street. I've never lost a Vale Tudo match, a Throwdown or challenge match. Of those criticizing me, I've probably have had more of those than all of yours combined.

I haven't won a sanctioned MMA fight yet. It's true. But I will. I'm getting better, and better, and better and better. So enjoy it now, because that's what a couple of you have thrown at me the past few conversations but that will be gone with 2009.

Now it's went from pugilistic mastery, to fencing expertise, to peace and love to attacking my credibility.... a guy who's competing and winning in BJJ, willing to go kick box, willing to go MMA, willing to go Vale Tudo or straight up challenge match. I'll step up..... but I don't know about fighting? Real fighting? Sport fighting? That's why I come here. So I can soak in all the combat wisdom gained from the sidelines.

Unbelievable.

TenTigers

10-11-2009, 03:09 PM

I once got into a fistfight in a bar with a bunch of big, tough, man-hating womynz of an alternative lifestyle. Does that count?

(actually, Ray might remember that club-Escapes. Friday nights it was fifteen dollar cover-open bar. Lots of wiminz, lots of fights, and in some cases, fights with wiminz!)

uki

10-11-2009, 03:12 PM

Unbelievable.shows the level of your mental capacity...

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 03:13 PM

That's the problem I had: Sifu's, high-level guys, implying things like that. Go fight somebody who's well trained and prepared and see if you finish the thing so clean and neat in one move.

As for my living in Puerto Rico, I deserve it. I grew up working for everything I got in not so great places. I've never lost a fight on the street. I've never lost a Vale Tudo match, a Throwdown or challenge match. Of those criticizing me, I've probably have had more of those than all of yours combined.

I haven't won a sanctioned MMA fight yet. It's true. But I will. I'm getting better, and better, and better and better. So enjoy it now, because that's what a couple of you have thrown at me the past few conversations but that will be gone with 2009.

Now it's went from pugilistic mastery, to fencing expertise, to peace and love to attacking my credibility.... a guy who's competing and winning in BJJ, willing to go kick box, willing to go MMA, willing to go Vale Tudo or straight up challenge match. I'll step up..... but I don't know about fighting? Real fighting? Sport fighting? That's why I come here. So I can soak in all the combat wisdom gained from the sidelines.

Unbelievable.

Its not real Ray unless your life and limb are at risk. I understand your contempt for wannabes, but controlled duels are a form of wannabe.

uki

10-11-2009, 03:18 PM

Its not real Ray unless your life and limb are at risk. I understand your contempt for wannabes, but controlled duels are a form of wannabe.he atleasts wannbe's a real fighter... :p

:D

Ray Pina

10-11-2009, 03:22 PM

The thing is, all you do is engage in controlled duels and "call" it combat! What you need to do in order to get some real experience with really "bad guys" is a few of the following:

I am being direct here Ray, but remember I respect your intentions, but you are too young and too mouthy to know what you are talking about. It is time to grow up and REALLY challenge yourself with some REAL life experience!

I'm doing what the he11 I want to do. I grew up in Newark, I went to school in Jersey City, worked and lived in and around NYC my entire life. I've been in and seen the fights, the stampedes of freaked out people. I've been stabbed. I've had guns pulled on me.

I like being a martial artists. I don't want to go to the armed services and have my life controlled.... though if I was 18 I would try to go through selection and be special forces.

I'm not a kid. I'm 35 years old. I have over 30 years of martial arts experience. I have countless fights under my belt.

I have lost 3 cage matches and 2 kick boxing matches. I am 0-5 sanctioned. It's true. What that doesn't show is all the fighting, scrapping, training, jiu-jitsu victories, experience, relationships being gained behind the scenes. Fighting in the cage is not easy. There's no second place. I have tremendous respect for everyone I've faced there. I could argue that I should have won the decision of my second cage fight, but that's foolish. Fight. Learn. Move on.

I'm not putting anyone down. If I say martial artists who aren't training to be combative aren't martial artists (unless they're retied) and someone takes offense, I'm sorry. It's just my opinion. But if it hits close to home and stings a bit consider the why of it. I know what its like to swallow those little humbling defeats of fright and insecurity. Proper training alleviates that.

I have lost and you can say I su(k and so what? I'm tapping and knocking down guys weekly. I know what I got and what I need to get or get back. That's martial arts to me, again.

uki

10-11-2009, 03:23 PM

i love the smell of desperation...

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 03:45 PM

Well Ray you do not act like you are 35, you act like you are 25 or younger. Your knowledge of Tao is not that of a 35 year old either. My 18 year old has more apparent maturity than you do!

All I am saying is that you want to be critical of others doing whatever the he!! they want to do and act like your definition of fighting is the last word. The fact is I redefined what it means to be a real fighter, just like you did, and my definition is more realistic than yours and you do not do it just like others don't live up to your definition!

You definition is YOUR fantasy, and my definition is MY fantasy, you think your definition is more realistic than others, MY definition is more realistic than yours. YOU want others to adhere to your definition, well I expect the same from you! If you want to define for others their level of toughness based upon your definition, I have done the same for you.

You are a wannabe by your own definition. I merely applied your own rules to you, but gave a more comprehensive definition of combat!

Your definition is your definition. others have their definition. You want to do whatever the he!! you want, but you want to be critical of others who want to do whatever the he!! they want to do.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

Scott R. Brown

10-11-2009, 04:00 PM

..you can say I su(k and so what? I'm tapping and knocking down guys weekly. I know what I got and what I need to get or get back. That's martial arts to me, again.

I don't think you suck Ray. I like you and I respect you, but you are not as realistic and you think you are and you could be a bit more gracious to those who do not fight.

I am not reacting according to my own feelings here. I don't care one or the other about being tough. I was young once too, I am over it. I was also a state class swimmer and water polo player in high school. I know what it is like to win and lose. It is not important to me anymore. I had my time. I was never interested in competing in anything after high school. Well I did consider doing some MMA in my 30's, I have known Chuck Liddels's trainer for years, but family responsibilities take precedences so that was just a passing fancy.

Have fun doing whatever the he!! you want, just try being a bit more gracious to those who are not up to your own standards. You don't know other people, what their experiences are, their goals, etc. Your goals are your goals, I respect that about you, try respecting others a little bit!

goju

10-12-2009, 12:48 AM

uki

10-12-2009, 02:47 AM

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 05:52 AM

are you the same ray pina that said he had better gnp that matt hughes on that sherdog thread and supposedly was beating up kids in a video and said it was internal kung fu?:D

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f7/internal-ma-real-fight-vid-391213/

I didn't open the link but I did say that. I was an ignorant kung fu practitioner at the time. I don't like Matt Hughes, but I respect him.

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 05:53 AM

i did find this... i dunno if its the same person. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq9fKZdboos

LOL... is the guy with the white trousers even remotely comparable to being a "fighter"?? i marvel at the attraction to this type of enviroment... :rolleyes:

That's me in white. And people on the outside of the cage are entitled to their opinion. That's part of the thing. You have no idea how many people who's a$$ I could kick came up to me afterwards with advice on what I should've done or could do next time.

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 06:01 AM

shows the level of your mental capacity...

It's hard to keep up with the circular retardedness which usually accompanies these conversations.

Usually goes from Kung Fu's too dangerous to people accepting that their biggest names, most popular masters haven't done any real fighting to the point of martial arts is inner peace and then they get self conscious again and start talking about how those fights aren't real fights and real skill is in fighting multiple opponents in life or death situations with or without weapons but there masters haven't done that either.... though the technique seems to work especially well on students in front of the video camera.

Frost

10-12-2009, 06:28 AM

I didn't open the link but I did say that. I was an ignorant kung fu practitioner at the time. I don't like Matt Hughes, but I respect him.

You are not the only one that respects but dislikes Matt :)

I remember reading your posts back when you were evolution fist (I believe) and the back and forth you used to have with David Ross, its interesting to see how your views have changed as you began to use your system in an open sporting environment (I went through the same change) and it is interesting how actually training to compete and actually competing can effect you in a positive way

Frost

10-12-2009, 06:30 AM

That's me in white. And people on the outside of the cage are entitled to their opinion. That's part of the thing. You have no idea how many people who's a$$ I could kick came up to me afterwards with advice on what I should've done or could do next time.

lol thats the best part about sports guys, they only offer advise if they have been there and done it, otherwise they shut up and train lol

Frost

10-12-2009, 06:34 AM

It's hard to keep up with the circular retardedness which usually accompanies these conversations.

Usually goes from Kung Fu's too dangerous to people accepting that their biggest names, most popular masters haven't done any real fighting to the point of martial arts is inner peace and then they get self conscious again and start talking about how those fights aren't real fights and real skill is in fighting multiple opponents in life or death situations with or without weapons but there masters haven't done that either.... though the technique seems to work especially well on students in front of the video camera.

LMAO this is so spot its spooky, and having been on both sides of the argument and a firm believer in all of the above until I had my eyes opened can I just say again LMAO:D

SIFU RON

10-12-2009, 06:46 AM

The world is different today than yesterday, it will be different up the road. We humans react to our enviorment.

Back in the days of the Great Depression guys use to fight Bear Knuckel Fist Fights on the streets to earn $ to feed their wife and kids. The" rich boys" enjoyed watching them duke it out, there were no rules.

Gangs used to fight it out also, they didnt' do drive by shooting, they just kicked you ass.

Kung Fu and M/A were around but hidden so to speak. The Chinese in China held their K/F tournaments , there were no rules, they met in fields or the mountain side, the last man standing was the winner.

The early days of M/A in the USA were different, today M/A are sport driven, Wu Shu - Karate - MMA all have their place.

There are some of the old Tradional Kung Fu - teachers still around, but we haven't much time left on this planet. We mostly keep to ourselves. Enjoy your days at this present time, pass on it ( Wude ) the best you can. Respect each other. This is a good forum, actually the best one around, lot's of us enjoy reading it.

A question, what makes one want to learn M/A today ?

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 07:14 AM

You are not the only one that respects but dislikes Matt :)

I remember reading your posts back when you were evolution fist (I believe) and the back and forth you used to have with David Ross, its interesting to see how your views have changed as you began to use your system in an open sporting environment (I went through the same change) and it is interesting how actually training to compete and actually competing can effect you in a positive way

I'm so happy now. I'm around people that push me. I have judo black belts to throw me, boxers to punch me and fighters to fight with.... my failures are my own now, and not from a lack of preparation. I've also learned how to take full responsibility for my training. The options are out there. And competition will keep you motivated because guys are hungry, training hard.

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 07:15 AM

shut up and train

That's been my mantra for about six months now.

Frost

10-12-2009, 07:21 AM

I'm so happy now. I'm around people that push me. I have judo black belts to throw me, boxers to punch me and fighters to fight with.... my failures are my own now, and not from a lack of preparation. I've also learned how to take full responsibility for my training. The options are out there. And competition will keep you motivated because guys are hungry, training hard.

who says you need to study a traditional art to become healthy and balanced :cool:

, very well put Ray and you remind me of the guys I know who compete they are some of the most down to earth and relaxed guys I know, no ego's or chips they know exactly how good (and bad) they are

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 07:30 AM

Thanks. I appreciate that.

bawang

10-12-2009, 11:04 AM

kung fu sucks. mma is better than kung fu. i have no escuses. i still like kung fu

Ray Pina

10-12-2009, 11:53 AM

I like Kung Fu too. But like my collar chokes... it could be better.

uki

10-13-2009, 02:22 AM

It's hard to keep up with the circular retardedness which usually accompanies these conversations.well... the sphere is the perfect shape, so i guess i am the most perfect retard who just rolls away from anything you could possibly say to insult me...

Usually goes from Kung Fu's too dangerous to people accepting that their biggest names, most popular masters haven't done any real fighting to the point of martial arts is inner peace and then they get self conscious again and start talking about how those fights aren't real fights and real skill is in fighting multiple opponents in life or death situations with or without weapons but there masters haven't done that either.... though the technique seems to work especially well on students in front of the video camera.the only retarded thing i see around here with you is that you talk like some macho ringfighter with advice for all of us to live by, but then having found a recent video of you in a cage, i don't think i saw one punch that wasn't thrown in reaction to your opponents... no stealth, no feints, no aggression, no speed, lots of wasted energy by hip-hopping around... and of course that final desperate lunge that ultimately inflected and became the death of your match. LOL. actually... i am still attempting to analyze exactly WHAT it was that i saw...

LMAO this is so spot its spooky, and having been on both sides of the argument and a firm believer in all of the above until I had my eyes opened can I just say again LMAOso are you implying that my eyes aren't open?? LMAO!!! your laughter must be contagious!!

once again... sport fighting is simply all it is. though i must admit, ray's match was VERY entertaining. :D

Frost

10-13-2009, 02:33 AM

well... the sphere is the perfect shape, so i guess i am the most perfect retard who just rolls away from anything you could possibly say to insult me...
the only retarded thing i see around here with you is that you talk like some macho ringfighter with advice for all of us to live by, but then having found a recent video of you in a cage, i don't think i saw one punch that wasn't thrown in reaction to your opponents... no stealth, no feints, no aggression, no speed, lots of wasted energy by hip-hopping around... and of course that final desperate lunge that ultimately inflected and became the death of your match. LOL. actually... i am still attempting to analyze exactly WHAT it was that i saw...

so are you implying that my eyes aren't open?? LMAO!!! your laughter must be contagious!!

once again... sport fighting is simply all it is. though i must admit, ray's match was VERY entertaining. :D

So show us you doing it better...lmao or better still show us you doing some real fighting in the streets since sport fighting is beneath you :D

your eyes may or may not be open, but i think you need to engage your brain before you start typing as i have yet to see one constructive post from you, hell one post that makes sense would be a start :D

uki

10-13-2009, 02:58 AM

So show us you doing it better...lmao or better still show us you doing some real fighting in the streets since sport fighting is beneath you. apparently you are missing the bigger picture here...

your eyes may or may not be open, but i think you need to engage your brain before you start typing as i have yet to see one constructive post from you, hell one post that makes sense would be a start.there is common sense and there is uncommon sense, which is nonsense to those with no sense. :)

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 06:14 AM

Frost

10-13-2009, 06:30 AM

There's good nights and there's bad nights in anything. Work, play, training, fighting.

If I didn't think I had it in me I wouldn't go or would have quit a long time ago..... one of the best lessons I've learned from martial arts.

Three years ago folks here told me I'd never fight in the cage, that I'm too old. You're the person I'll quote when I post my first win, which will be coming soon. You'll see.

don't sweat him Ray I think he watched one too many episodes of kung fu when he was younger :D
you are out there competing something he can't understand as its an alien concept to him, afterall martials arts were developed for enlightenment not for fighting ... :)

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:26 AM

It's OK. I'm secure. Believe me, that fight haunts me. I was so well prepared, but aside from all the usual fight challenges, fighting as a gringo in Puerto Rico provides some of its own. The pressure and some of the pre-fight drama got to me. Again, it's not only OK it's awesome... I've learned and grown so much from it.

Let the haters hate.... even if they're well-balanced, centers, spiritual types.

I know how terrible Royce Gracie looked against Matt Hughes. It looked like they grabbed some middle-aged guy out of the crowd. Royce is awesome. On any given night, against any fighter, the match up can go either way. Circumstance.

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:34 AM

well... the sphere is the perfect shape, so i guess i am the most perfect retard

my a$$hole is perfectly round too.

You could just as easily have called up the video with me knocking around traditional types (but guys with nut enough to show up). Look at the difference.... with them, regardless of their size or technique, it's like a game. I'm like a lion playing with a mouse. And they're all at least 10 years younger than me.

Against "sport fighters", look how my advantage is pulled down.

That says it all. Wins and loses are all there. I got nothing to hide, but unless someone can show me more looks like I'm the most senior Kung Fu guy here when it comes to providing evidence of what I can do.

God knows I'm willing to fight anyone who claims to be better. I now have the promotional contacts to make it happen for those interested. I'd be willing to investigate if a Vale Tudo clause could be instated for a special Kung Fu vs Kung Fu match here in Puerto Rico. Could be fun.

TenTigers

10-13-2009, 07:49 AM

Ray, how long did you study Isshinryu?

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:56 AM

8 years devoted, 6 days a week. Three of those days two classes a night once I became a brown belt and could go to the black belt class.

One of my biggest regrets is losing the kicking that I had. I had very good kicks. I'm older now, but they're stating to come out again. Been working them on one of those air shields.

I trained at the Sen Shin Dojo in Newark. That sensei was like a father to me.

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:59 AM

Interesting to note though. I got into the Issin-Ryu club later in college briefly but the Jersey City cop was a di(k and he stressed straight blasts where we used the reverse punch mostly... I later found out that Issin-Ryu does use that straight blast.

Now, I like boxing's lead-hand straight but still like to clean up with a reverse.

I love martial arts, so many ways to do the same thing and each has their own flavor and timing.

Dragonzbane76

10-13-2009, 08:28 AM

the only retarded thing i see around here with you is that you talk like some macho ringfighter with advice for all of us to live by, but then having found a recent video of you in a cage, i don't think i saw one punch that wasn't thrown in reaction to your opponents... no stealth, no feints, no aggression, no speed, lots of wasted energy by hip-hopping around... and of course that final desperate lunge that ultimately inflected and became the death of your match. LOL. actually... i am still attempting to analyze exactly WHAT it was that i saw...

Sounds exactly like something someone would say that's never actually stepped into the cage or ring.

Grats ray for actually having the courage to step in there.

sanjuro_ronin

10-13-2009, 08:40 AM

face it, real Gung-Fu is boring and tedious and hard. Nobody practices lien-gung anymore. How many students would stay in a school that made them do mostly conditioning and hard trainng first, rather than instant gratification stuff?

A friend of mine was over on the weekend and we were fooling around in my gym, he mentioned if I still do anything "uniquely" kung fu and I said I did, the Phoenix-eye fist.
He asked so I demoed, first I drilled the IP bag I have, then the punching bag then the padded dummy, just to show how it works, then he held a yellow pages on his chest and I drilled him with it, from him to see how it felt.
He wanted to learn it so he tried it and, even though he did it softly, he hurt himself, I told him it takes a lot to develop it, months of daily work, he said he wanted it because it "hurts like hell", and wanted to know how to develop it.
I showed him the 2 formation to see which he likes better, then I made him TRY to do a push up on it.
Yeah, in his words, " Hmmm, nah, that's ok, I'ts not for me".

TenTigers

10-13-2009, 09:35 AM

LOL, well, that was over quick.

sanjuro_ronin

10-13-2009, 09:43 AM

LOL, well, that was over quick.

Yeah, some people should go back to needle point.

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 10:49 AM

sanjuro_ronin

10-13-2009, 11:21 AM

Pushups on the Phoenix Fist... that's good. I never thought of that and no one ever showed me. I'm going to start incorporating that into my competitive ground and pound game.... not on classmates.

Phoenix fist is good, though I've had teachers weary of it because they have seen folks injure themselves using it in fights.

Some don't think that forging the PE fist is needed, I am of the belief that it is better to have a forged tool than one that isn't.
Push-ups develop the structure of the PE fist, you learn the correct way the PE fist lines up very quickly doing push-ups.
Add to that hitting with the PE fist to where you are hitting the padded wooden post with enough force to make a difference, then you h ave something that you can rely on.
Its a very good strike to use to use to the body from the mount, nice on the floating ribs as you can imagine.
To me the PE fist should be like a "Natural Kubotan".

uki

10-13-2009, 02:49 PM

don't sweat him Ray I think he watched one too many episodes of kung fu when he was younger.actually i hardly ever watched kung fu...

you are out there competing something he can't understand as its an alien concept to him, it's not an alien concept, its a useless one...

afterall martials arts were developed for enlightenment not for fighting ... :)actually it was those who were enlightened that brought to the table the concept of using the martial arts as a vehicle to gain enlightenment... a mediation to be more precise. the martial arts are used for one thing only... self defense of yourself, your family, and your loved ones - everything else is the strivings and cravings of the ego.

It's OK. I'm secure. Believe me, that fight haunts me. is this like becoming an oxymoron or something??

Let the haters hate.... even if they're well-balanced, centers, spiritual types. i don't hate you or what you do... each to there own, but i find it hard to sit idle on a kung fu forum board where everyone can present there perspective of the arts for all to see...

my a$$hole is perfectly round too.how do you know this?? :p

You could just as easily have called up the video with me knocking around traditional types (but guys with nut enough to show up).actually that was the only one i found.

Look at the difference.... with them, regardless of their size or technique, it's like a game. I'm like a lion playing with a mouse. And they're all at least 10 years younger than me. LOL... so you like to beat up kids?? :rolleyes:

Against "sport fighters", look how my advantage is pulled down.see from my perspective, i don't understand why one would choose to willing put themselves into a position to where one had to fight according to rules, regulations, morals, ethics, and all that fun stuff... to myself the martial arts are reserved only to protect my children, family, and those whom may be around me - there is nothing that i wouldn't do in order to achieve that end... nothing. i must ask you how one naturally prepares oneself to go ballistic and primal on people intent on doing extreme physical harm to someone close to you such as your child??

That says it all. Wins and loses are all there. I got nothing to hide, but unless someone can show me more looks like I'm the most senior Kung Fu guy here when it comes to providing evidence of what I can do. now ray, this is a very egotistical statement... who cares?? not me. you live in your reality and i will live in mine. :)

God knows I'm willing to fight anyone who claims to be better.thats the main difference right there ray... you fight to defend your ego and pride, i fight to defend my life and family - no one is better in that extreme, not even you. this would apply to anyone on the boards... i am sure that each and everyone of you people on here would claim to annihilate anyone attempting to harm your family or children, so i am proclaiming it publicly aswell.

I now have the promotional contacts to make it happen for those interested. I'd be willing to investigate if a Vale Tudo clause could be instated for a special Kung Fu vs Kung Fu match here in Puerto Rico. Could be fun.well then you can kidnap one of my children and i would willing travel to your little sandbar and mutilate you, otherwise, there is no reason for me to fight you or anyone else... call my mom a wh0re, woopie do da... maybe she is?? harm my kids, and your dead. pretty simple perspective...

Sounds exactly like something someone would say that's never actually stepped into the cage or ring.for me it is improbable... i have nothing to defend by choosing to step into a ring. the concept is lifeless to me...

Grats ray for actually having the courage to step in there.more power to him... it's people like him that provide good solid entertainment to the commercialized martial arts world.

LOL, well, that was over quick.compared to the course of geological time, yes... it was rather quick. :D

David Jamieson

10-13-2009, 02:53 PM

anyone looking for quick results in kungfu training should just not bother at all with it.

being able to fight is NOT kungfu. It's a little bit of it, but certainly not what the point of kungfu is.

no matter how much Dave Ross will shout about that.

kungfu need not even have anything to do with martial arts at all.

but, I guess with the blanket term and simple minds, it can be that at the gate of it. :)

uki

10-13-2009, 03:28 PM

kungfu need not even have anything to do with martial arts at all.you know, i muse at the entire concept of having a magazine called "kung fu" simply because of this. LOL... by definition, "kung fu magazine" should incorporate those who have aquired kung fu in 10,000 things under the sun... it seems even the concept of "kung fu" has become a commercialized agenda that preys on the weak minded individuals who do not see thru the illusion of it all... martial arts are not kung fu, they are just one aspect where one can aquire it. :)

David Jamieson

10-13-2009, 03:31 PM

you know, i muse at the entire concept of having a magazine called "kung fu" simply because of this. LOL... by definition, "kung fu magazine" should incorporate those who have aquired kung fu in 10,000 things under the sun... it seems even the concept of "kung fu" has become a commercialized agenda that preys on the weak minded individuals who do not see thru the illusion of it all... martial arts are not kung fu, they are just one aspect where one can aquire it. :)

anyone looking for quick results in kungfu training should just not bother at all with it.

it's not a sock puppet magazine.
it's relevant to it's audience. :)

uki

10-13-2009, 03:36 PM

it's not a sock puppet magazine. wasn't implying it was, merely pointing out some of the finer discrepancies in the grammatical use of the term "kung fu".

it's relevant to it's audience.LMAO!!! yes... you are 100% correct there!! :D

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 04:01 PM

see from my perspective, i don't understand why one would choose to willing put themselves into a position to where one had to fight according to rules, regulations, morals, ethics, and all that fun stuff... to myself the martial arts are reserved only to protect my children, family, and those whom may be around me - there is nothing that i wouldn't do in order to achieve that end.

You're not the only person with a child and a survival instinct. What if the perpetrator has more children then you and is also better prepared?

I fight according to rules and regulations and under a sanctioned body to make a dangerous thing as safe as possible while remaining within the law to develop the skills I want. Knowing I'm fighting makes me work harder, thus I improve quicker. It's also fun in its own way. Has it's own moments. Like after training when you're so shot you just sit there soak and wet staring at nothing for a while.

goju

10-13-2009, 04:15 PM

goju

10-13-2009, 04:21 PM

TenTigers

10-13-2009, 05:37 PM

make sure to have a slight tilt downward with the wrist when you practice it in striking is stabalizes the strike and will keep you from injuring your wrist :D
That is but one of many methods.
In SPM, we strike with many different angles; sometimes straight, sometimes downward, sometimes vertical, sometimes inverted with the wrist cocked backwards, sometimes sideways with the wrist bent. you can thrust it, or snap it, or hit with a flexed snap of the wrist.

_William_

10-13-2009, 05:55 PM

I've been meaning to develop my phoenix eye fist. Any precautions to keep in mind? The other day I tried phoenix eye pushups and my knuckle joint got sore as hell.

goju

10-13-2009, 06:15 PM

i think trying to do phoenix eye push ups right off the bat is too much and youll end up hurting yourself

you should gradually build up

id recommend starting on a bag and slowly building up the striking power then once you can deliver a full force strike to the bag move on to harder surfaces and then push ups

another thing you can try is making the phoenix eye fist and positioning the striking point of the knuckle against a wall and lean your weight on it to build up its strength
this works good for the spear hand conditioning as well

im sure theres different opinions /methods but that is my two cents

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:23 PM

of course hoyce was sick that day:rolleyes:

No, Royce was old fighting a seasoned, experienced, young champion.

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:25 PM

And the Gracies have done more for unarmed martial arts in the past 20 years than anyone or group I can think of over the past century.

Ray Pina

10-13-2009, 07:27 PM

That is but one of many methods.
In SPM, we strike with many different angles; sometimes straight, sometimes downward, sometimes vertical, sometimes inverted with the wrist cocked backwards, sometimes sideways with the wrist bent. you can thrust it, or snap it, or hit with a flexed snap of the wrist.

I like to crack all four of those knuckles across the upper lip with a snapping overhand. That's a fight ender.

TenTigers

10-13-2009, 08:02 PM

I like to crack all four of those knuckles across the upper lip with a snapping overhand. That's a fight ender.
Leopard fist, ginger fist, or Tiger Fist, all similar four knuckle strikes. Very effective, Ray. Excellent choice.:cool:

goju

10-13-2009, 08:03 PM

And the Gracies have done more for unarmed martial arts in the past 20 years than anyone or group I can think of over the past century.

not really the chinese have had style vs style nhb competitions for centuries not to mention they got the idea for the ufc from a bruce lee movie lol:D

TenTigers

10-13-2009, 08:32 PM

sure it wasn't Thunderdome?

Frost

10-14-2009, 01:32 AM

not really the chinese have had style vs style nhb competitions for centuries not to mention they got the idea for the ufc from a bruce lee movie lol:D

This might be true but there haven’t been too many documented cases of large scale NHB in china in the last century of so, 1923 and 1928 I think, maybe a few more but I can’t recall them.

Ray is right in that love them or hate them the Gracie’s had the largest impact on martial arts in the last centur.. They brought reality back to the traditional martial arts, they reminded us that real fighting is nasty up close and usually involves some kind of grappling. Not to mention that no member of the family ever backed down from a challenge, even Ronion has had documented no rules matches.

In addition they created 3 new sports, MMA, submission grappling and BJJ all of which are widely popular. Not to mention their impact on popular culture the way the general public view martial arts and fighting in general has changed dramatically due to the impact the Graice’s and the UFC have had

uki

10-14-2009, 02:29 AM

You're not the only person with a child and a survival instinct.no sh!t ray... i pointed that out in my post. :rolleyes:

What if the perpetrator has more children then you and is also better prepared? ah... but why would a man with children attempt to harm my family or my own?? obviously this individual does not have love or care for his own if he is attempting to harm someone elese... failed logic ray.

I fight according to rules and regulations and under a sanctioned body to make a dangerous thing as safe as possible while remaining within the law to develop the skills I want.LOL... i don't want anything more. obviously you want more because you are not content with yourself.

Knowing I'm fighting makes me work harder, thus I improve quicker. It's also fun in its own way. Has it's own moments. Like after training when you're so shot you just sit there soak and wet staring at nothing for a while.well i am glad you like what you are doing ray... please remember that i am not putting down what you do and why, i am merely presenting to you why i do not do what you do... and you won't find me on a surfboard playing in the 30 foot waves... i have a healthy respect for the ocean... i'm a tiger afterall and we don't like to get our paws wet if we don't have to. :p

and why not be a sport and put your pushup's on phoenix eye fists in my 10,001 ways to strengthen the fist thread...

Ray Pina

10-14-2009, 06:47 AM

why would a man with children attempt to harm my family or my own?? obviously this individual does not have love or care for his own if he is attempting to harm someone elese... failed logic ray.
.

I don't know. But if you really think only men without children perpetrate violent crimes, there's an issue in understanding here that I just can't help you get over

LOL... i don't want anything more. obviously you want more because you are not content with yourself..
If my understanding is right you learned your skills from an Asian woman but haven't been training with anyone since. I don't knock what you learned, because I don't know what you studied, and I don't knock that you aren't training with others now. I would suggest though, that while you have been idly maintaining what you have, a great many others are adding to what they have. Also, a trainer or coach will push you MUCH further than you'll push yourself.

I'm never content with my martial arts or surfing. That's why I'm now fighting in the cage and living on an island with big waves. This is just how I'm wired. Further. Never backwards and never staying the same.

well i am glad you like what you are doing ray... please remember that i am not putting down what you do and why, i am merely presenting to you why i do not do what you do.

We're all different. I don't judge what anyone does. But as soon as someone starts posting what I think is faulty logic, as a member of this board and a lover of martial arts, I think its important to post a counter, just for the record so its there for eyes to see.

In this most recent case, I think it's a disaster to sit content thinking the love of your children will save the day while your skills, while perhaps showing up in your day to day life, have not been pressure tested in some time. If you want to use your weapons you have to maintain them.

There is a time to put them on the shelf, but hunger and love for your family alone will not bring down a buffalo.

uki

10-14-2009, 11:23 PM

I don't know.well why not?

But if you really think only men without children perpetrate violent crimes, there's an issue in understanding here that I just can't help you get overyou are misunderstanding the point here again...

If my understanding is right you learned your skills from an Asian woman but haven't been training with anyone since.a jewish woman and train with myself... that is someone. :p

I don't knock what you learned, because I don't know what you studied, the foundations of bagua and xing yi...

and I don't knock that you aren't training with others now.when the others are ready, they will appear. :D

I would suggest though, that while you have been idly maintaining what you have, a great many others are adding to what they have.be wary not of the man who practices 10,000 techniques once, but he who practices one technique 10,000 times... i seem to live by this concept.

Also, a trainer or coach will push you MUCH further than you'll push yourself. perhaps, but i don't like anyone to push me around for whatever the reason... i do what i want, not what i am told.

I'm never content with my martial arts or surfing.hmmmm... this doesn't seem like a healthy mindset to have... finding contentness in life with where one is and with what one has become should be one of the ultimate goals in life. being here, in the now. i find it illogical to plan for the future because you never know what tommorow will bring or if you'll even make it out of today alive, so it's wise to be content with what we have at any given moment.

That's why I'm now fighting in the cage and living on an island with big waves. This is just how I'm wired. Further. Never backwards and never staying the same. commendable, only i don't like the idea of being on a small island... there's nowhere to run to if the need arises.

We're all different.that depends entirely on ones perception...

I don't judge what anyone does.yet you take it personally what anyone says about what you may be doing.

But as soon as someone starts posting what I think is faulty logic, as a member of this board and a lover of martial arts, I think its important to post a counter, just for the record so its there for eyes to see.and counters are more than likely to have counters aswell...

In this most recent case, I think it's a disaster to sit content thinking the love of your children will save the day while your skills,LOL... you are really not seeing this are you?

while perhaps showing up in your day to day life, have not been pressure tested in some time. hmmmm... i strive with no one so there is no reason for someone to strive with me... the last group of people that attempted to physically threaten me found their "leader" knocked out upside the triple burner flashpoint behind the ear after he tried to grab me from behind as i gave them my back and walked away.

If you want to use your weapons you have to maintain them. my first weapon is my wits, second is my fist. i train both on a daily basis. :)

There is a time to put them on the shelf, but hunger and love for your family alone will not bring down a buffalo.you're absolutely right... i'll grab that bull by the throat and choke the living sh!t out of him before i cut off his balls and make a belt pouch out of his scrotum... then i'll eat him with the family and be well fed all winter. :D

goju

10-14-2009, 11:50 PM

This might be true but there haven’t been too many documented cases of large scale NHB in china in the last century of so, 1923 and 1928 I think, maybe a few more but I can’t recall them.

Ray is right in that love them or hate them the Gracie’s had the largest impact on martial arts in the last centur.. They brought reality back to the traditional martial arts, they reminded us that real fighting is nasty up close and usually involves some kind of grappling. Not to mention that no member of the family ever backed down from a challenge, even Ronion has had documented no rules matches.

In addition they created 3 new sports, MMA, submission grappling and BJJ all of which are widely popular. Not to mention their impact on popular culture the way the general public view martial arts and fighting in general has changed dramatically due to the impact the Graice’s and the UFC have had

again bruce lee beat them to the nontelegraphic punch lol:D

as far as them never backing down that is up for dispute(ie the gene lebell match or the benny the jet match)

uki

10-15-2009, 12:01 AM

i think cage fights are a stray offshoot from the days of the gladiators... musing over the whole thing, cage fights are not even remotely comparable to being in a coliseum - an insult to great warriors of reknown everywhere, in every age. :)

Frost

10-15-2009, 12:51 AM

as far as them never backing down that is up for dispute(ie the gene lebell match or the benny the jet match)

they may have had made wild challenges in the magazines that changed all the time ill not dispute that (Ronion is an idiot after all), but by the same token they never turned away a challenger who turned up at one of their schools or seminars, witness all the challenges at Gracie Torrance, hell didn't one of the smaller cousins accept a fight with a pro fighter once after a grappling seminar he gave, he lost to a guy much bigger than him but he fought.

Pro Japanese fighter Anjoh turned up at Ricksons School with the Japanese media in toe and demanded a fight and got one, although afterwards I bet he wished he had not bothered

You have got to respect that, how many teachers do you know who will take on all challengers?

uki

10-15-2009, 12:56 AM

You have got to respect that, how many teachers do you know who will take on all challengers?why do you have to respect someone with an infantile mindset of making a challenge?? doesn't the offer of challenge imply mental insecurities?? accepting a challenge is like accepting to have a mental deficiency. :p

Frost

10-15-2009, 01:05 AM

why do you have to respect someone with an infantile mindset of making a challenge?? doesn't the offer of challenge imply mental insecurities?? accepting a challenge is like accepting to have a mental deficiency. :p

I repsect someone who has enough believe in what they teach to actually be prepared to show it works.

Do you actually train martial arts, and if so why do you train?

uki

10-15-2009, 01:11 AM

Do you actually train martial arts, and if so why do you train?why would i waste time on a martial arts forum if i did not train?? i train because it is each individuals responsibility to be able to defend oneself from physical aggression if and when the situation arises... the belief that we "need" someone else in order to facilitate this defense mechanism is asinine to say the least - the concept itself should adequately flower on a well nourished mind. some folks are still oblivious to the realization and fundamentual principle that recongizes that the "master" dwells in each of us. :)

Frost

10-15-2009, 01:30 AM

why would i waste time on a martial arts forum if i did not train?? i train because it is each individuals responsibility to be able to defend oneself from physical aggression if and when the situation arises... the belief that we "need" someone else in order to facilitate this defense mechanism is asinine to say the least - the concept itself should adequately flower on a well nourished mind. some folks are still oblivious to the realization and fundamentual principle that recongizes that the "master" dwells in each of us. :)

I don't know, why waste your time on a martial arts board if you are not going to contribute anything, and how do you know you can defend yourself from physical aggression..... How do you know what you are taught will work when it hits the fan? The Gracie’s students know what they are taught will work because they can see their instructors using it in fights and challenges, how do you know?

Scott R. Brown

10-15-2009, 01:36 AM

... the last group of people that attempted to physically threaten me found their "leader" knocked out upside the triple burner flashpoint behind the ear after he tried to grab me from behind as i gave them my back and walked away.

You took the pansy way out uki. That was WAY too easy. If you had used MMA you could have risked your own safety and taken more time by getting down on the ground to choke them each out one by one! Then gone home changed your dirty clothes, clean the minor scrapes and abrasions and have a beer.

How do you live with the shame!:o

Scott R. Brown

10-15-2009, 01:37 AM

I don't know, why waste your time on a martial arts board if you are not going to contribute anything, and how do you know you can defend yourself from physical aggression..... How do you know what you are taught will work when it hits the fan? The Gracie’s students know what they are taught will work because they can see their instructors using it in fights and challenges, how do you know?

LOL!! Shakes head.....newbies!!!

uki

10-15-2009, 01:42 AM

You took the pansy way out uki. That was WAY too easy. If you had used MMA you could have risked your own safety and taken more time by getting down on the ground to choke them each out one by one! how selfish of me...

Then gone home changed your dirty clothes, clean the minor scrapes and abrasions and have a beer. i think i went back upstairs and had a third rum and coke. :D

How do you live with the shame!i am shameless. :p

how do you know?i wish i could explain it so you could understand it, but you have to come to terms with the concept on your own. :)

Scott R. Brown

10-15-2009, 01:49 AM

i am shameless. :p

LOL!! That you are....there is a lot of freedom in that isn't there?

uki

10-15-2009, 01:54 AM

LOL!! That you are....there is a lot of freedom in that isn't there?most people have no idea!!

Dragonzbane76

10-15-2009, 04:11 AM

the belief that we "need" someone else in order to facilitate this defense mechanism is asinine to say the least - the concept itself should adequately flower on a well nourished mind. some folks are still oblivious to the realization and fundamentual principle that recongizes that the "master" dwells in each of us.

wow just wow. delusional to say the very least. Good luck with that.

And what "said" systema did you say you were in? So I can stay far far away from it.

uki

10-15-2009, 05:12 AM

wow just wow. delusional to say the very least. delusional only from your perspective perhaps...

Good luck with that. thanks!! we tigers have an uncanny knack for it.

And what "said" systema did you say you were in? you can can think of me as a benign virus that affects other systems by forming a symbiotic relationship with it. :)

So I can stay far far away from it.we all fear the unknown at some point in the journey. :p

sanjuro_ronin

10-15-2009, 05:22 AM

The Gracie Challenge was probably the most traditional thing they ever did.
There is nothing more traditional in TMA than to test your skills via public challenges, it happened all the time.
Judo's history is ripe with it, so is Karate's and so is almost every system of Kung fu.
Challenges are how MA test their skill AND promote their system.

Iron_Eagle_76

10-15-2009, 05:40 AM

David Jamieson

10-15-2009, 06:09 AM

I believe that martial arts at the turn of the century were more brutal, but as the 20th century dawned and technology became prevalent, you had systems being watered down because the need was no longer what it used to be. Then of course you had this new age hippie movement in which passiveness was what defined the martial arts and in order to be a true martial artist, you had to live in the woods, look like Grizzly Adams, and be at "one" with yourself. I am thankful the Gracies brought to light what martial arts was truly about. Of course, you still have the idiots who do forms and beat up trees and think they are "teh deadly", but you will always have that.

as i did not live at the turn of the century, i do not see sport martial arts then as any more difficult than now.

having seen films of sport fights in the ring from teh turn of the century, I would say that there is a huge leap in expected skill these days as compared to then when flying haymakers were the tech du jour.

seriously, this idea that the ancients were better is absurd. We are humans, we grow and develop and become more than what we were with each uninterupted generation.

I don't savvy much with the idea that old = better.

I'll take the grown and adapted over the old anyday.

It has been shown countless times how antiquated and useless turn of the century martial arts can be and it is continually shown today that you gotta train to gain.

closed schools doing esoteric ritualized martial arts are cool, but comparing that to todays expected conditions for ma fightings is also absurd. they are apples and wrenches.

Old stuff has good in it. Principles, fundaments, etc. But the training methodology overall is antiquated and ineffective when pressure tested.

that has been demonstratively shown again and again.

weapons, well you can't really gauge that can you? A projectile weapon is superior period. No matter how many times you want to create a scenario and wedge your tech in their, a gun supersedes all classical weapons.

relevance counts, tradition is good, but relevance and effective training regimens are far more worthwhile to pursue. Update and upgrade or be stagnant. That is how it is. Can't see it? That's cool, you can't see it.

sanjuro_ronin

10-15-2009, 06:15 AM

What was the world record in the 100 meters in 1909? what was the world record in the deadlift?
What did olympic gynmast do in the first olympics of the 20th century?
Compare that to what is done NOW.

if you care to look at the "average" Joe, that's fine too.

Iron_Eagle_76

10-15-2009, 06:46 AM

as i did not live at the turn of the century, i do not see sport martial arts then as any more difficult than now.

having seen films of sport fights in the ring from teh turn of the century, I would say that there is a huge leap in expected skill these days as compared to then when flying haymakers were the tech du jour.

seriously, this idea that the ancients were better is absurd. We are humans, we grow and develop and become more than what we were with each uninterupted generation.

I don't savvy much with the idea that old = better.

I'll take the grown and adapted over the old anyday.

It has been shown countless times how antiquated and useless turn of the century martial arts can be and it is continually shown today that you gotta train to gain.

closed schools doing esoteric ritualized martial arts are cool, but comparing that to todays expected conditions for ma fightings is also absurd. they are apples and wrenches.

Old stuff has good in it. Principles, fundaments, etc. But the training methodology overall is antiquated and ineffective when pressure tested.

that has been demonstratively shown again and again.

weapons, well you can't really gauge that can you? A projectile weapon is superior period. No matter how many times you want to create a scenario and wedge your tech in their, a gun supersedes all classical weapons.

relevance counts, tradition is good, but relevance and effective training regimens are far more worthwhile to pursue. Update and upgrade or be stagnant. That is how it is. Can't see it? That's cool, you can't see it.

Good points, but the problem is that there are still many TMA schools that are stagnant and that is the point I am trying to make. There were more challenge matches and actual fights during that time period. Were the fights sh**itty, some probably were. But there is a difference in fighting and pretending to fight, the latter of which is what many TCMA schools devolved into. I agree that with modern technology, training equipment, and better methods, modern fighters should be much better. Sadly, though, many are not.

Ray Pina

10-15-2009, 07:24 AM

Things are MUCH better now.

I can train Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu and western boxing at a competitive level all within a 20 minute drive from another in a single day. I can stop at a number of places and eat a nutritional meal, go to the gym and lift some weights, go home, take a nap, do some work from home, go surf, then go spar with guys ranging from Judo black belts to BJJ brown belts to professional kick boxers.

The standard is also much higher now. Where trading sidekicks to back someone up was good enough in the 80s, today you snatch that kick, take a person down and submit them, or ground and pound them. The new standard requires a larger base knowledge.

It's awesome. There's always new solutions being developed to commonly occurring problems. One of my favorite submissions occur when I shoot and get stuffed and the guy locks in a guillotine. I continue to force the take down, pass to side control (while he's still squeezing the guillotine), then put all my weight on my shoulder choking him out...... what was once a problem has now become an opportunity. That's training. And I got that from NOT being content. A content martial artists is creating his own defeat.

uki

10-15-2009, 07:31 AM

seriously, this idea that the ancients were better is absurd. We are humans, we grow and develop and become more than what we were with each uninterupted generation.imagine living in a world several thousand years ago without ipods, street cars, shopping malls, video games, and other forms of distraction... imagine a world where you chopped down the trees yourself and built your house from the ground up, imagine where if one dedicated their life to a system of how easy it would be to focus on nothing else?? before this "modern era", mankind was forced thru his circumstancial enviroment to be a hardier, sturdier breed of human. by todays standards the ancients were far superiour... it's easy to take for granted the world we live in with all it's creature comforts that cut out physical labour... 60% of americans are obese, this speaks more than just people being overly lazy and mentally incapacitated... and just as we can grow and learn, we can also regress and become ignorant. :)

sanjuro_ronin

10-15-2009, 07:52 AM

imagine living in a world several thousand years ago without ipods, street cars, shopping malls, video games, and other forms of distraction... imagine a world where you chopped down the trees yourself and built your house from the ground up, imagine where if one dedicated their life to a system of how easy it would be to focus on nothing else?? before this "modern era", mankind was forced thru his circumstancial enviroment to be a hardier, sturdier breed of human. by todays standards the ancients were far superiour... it's easy to take for granted the world we live in with all it's creature comforts that cut out physical labour... 60% of americans are obese, this speaks more than just people being overly lazy and mentally incapacitated... and just as we can grow and learn, we can also regress and become ignorant. :)

You don't study much history, do you?

Frost

10-15-2009, 07:54 AM

You don't study much history, do you?

I don't think he has finished school yet... either that or he is very special

Dragonzbane76

10-15-2009, 08:06 AM

we all fear the unknown at some point in the journey.

Not unknown to me thank you. I know exactly where I stand. Ignorance on your part does not constitute such on mine.

Dragonzbane76

10-15-2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76
wow just wow. delusional to say the very least.

delusional only from your perspective perhaps...

A perspective that's tried and true.

What u stated about not using a resistant opponent and having a revelation as to the true understanding of fighting is farce.

your welcome to your opinion and I have no knowledge of your background but from your statements one has to conclude in opposition to your agrument.

anyways, good luck with that again, dragons tend to have great luck as well :) thru cunning means.

Scott R. Brown

10-15-2009, 08:52 AM

wow just wow. delusional to say the very least. Good luck with that.

And what "said" systema did you say you were in? So I can stay far far away from it.

wow just wow. delusional to say the very least. Good luck with that.

And what "said" systema did you say you were in? So I can stay far far away from it. :p

goju

10-15-2009, 09:34 AM

they may have had made wild challenges in the magazines that changed all the time ill not dispute that (Ronion is an idiot after all), but by the same token they never turned away a challenger who turned up at one of their schools or seminars, witness all the challenges at Gracie Torrance, hell didn't one of the smaller cousins accept a fight with a pro fighter once after a grappling seminar he gave, he lost to a guy much bigger than him but he fought.

Pro Japanese fighter Anjoh turned up at Ricksons School with the Japanese media in toe and demanded a fight and got one, although afterwards I bet he wished he had not bothered

You have got to respect that, how many teachers do you know who will take on all challengers?

not many i admit it does take guts even though a big majority of the people showing up are going to be scrubs theres always the possibilty some one may walk in an mop the floor with you lol

however by biggest disdain for the gracies comes because of their egotistical bragging that went along with their challenge matches

theres no need to go running around proclaiming your style is the best and is all a person needs to defend themselves when your slapping around some crack pot from the local mcdojo

thankfully karma came in the form of matt hughes for the gracies

:D

bawang

10-15-2009, 03:22 PM

sanda + loud funny music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNHBLWUR8wk) = muay thai
????

how come thais get to play loud music for muay thai and hit pots? we should do that for sanda tournaments too it would be so cool

David Jamieson

10-15-2009, 05:55 PM

bawang

10-15-2009, 10:21 PM

lion dance music is the manliest music ever. when i hear it i start going berzerk and smash a watermelon
i am serious. when you hear that drumming yo just want to start having a seisure and have foam come out of your mouth and you see red and I AM GUANYU THE GOD OF WAR RARARAR

mma doesnt have loud music with trumpets and banging pots
and you dont get to invite spirits into your body and wear magic bracelets

when mma has spirit possession and loud annoying pots banging i quit kung fu forever

TenTigers

10-15-2009, 10:28 PM

when mma has spirit possession and loud annoying pots banging i quit kung fu forever

and bracelets. Let's not forget the bracelets.
That's really what kept me out of going into the cage all these years. Once I heard no bracelets, I said,"That's it. No fukin deal."
well, that, and being 52, and not wanting to get all hurt n'all....

bawang

10-15-2009, 10:43 PM

i agree. i think they ban magic amulets because they give unfair advantage.
i dont blame them. slap a few daoist sticky papers on me and i can submit rampage jackson

if you want sports fighting to be realistic let both guys take a crack cocaine or pcp before the fight. then the fights get exciting instead of erotic touching each other

bawang

10-15-2009, 11:54 PM

hi, ray pina
if you think you are a warrior then ok cool. i dont think im a warrior.

personally i think tamil tigers are warriors. the navy seals are warriors.
my grandfather fought in war against japanese as a commando with 2 german pistols in each hand(germans allied with china before the war). hes a warrior. im not a warrior.
a worlf war 2 canadian veteran told me he saw germans cut off breats from women in france and throw them in a pile. he found a german who surrendered and shot him in the head with a magnum. he and the german are warriors. im not a warrior.

on google video you can find a documentary of the history of excutions. if you can do that to a man then youre a real warrior. im not a warrior.
i dont think anybody living in big cities has actually killed anything bigger than a mosquito

its easy to look down on people who suck compared to you. especially in kung fu. i think its better to compare yourself to people who are better than you.

yes things need to change. but if you abandon kung fu and let bad people stay then things will never change.

you know why kung fu is bad? the lure of easy money after the bruce lee movies. stop teaching for greed stop teaching your little dragon programs and black sash tests , stop teaching old people, beat your students like a red head step child and kung fu will be better

Frost

10-16-2009, 12:48 AM

not many i admit it does take guts even though a big majority of the people showing up are going to be scrubs theres always the possibilty some one may walk in an mop the floor with you lol

however by biggest disdain for the gracies comes because of their egotistical bragging that went along with their challenge matches

theres no need to go running around proclaiming your style is the best and is all a person needs to defend themselves when your slapping around some crack pot from the local mcdojo

thankfully karma came in the form of matt hughes for the gracies

:D

egoistical bragging LAMO! , every instructor of every kung fu/ karate style I have ever met said their style was the best superior to the others etc, the difference was the Gracie’s actually manned up and proved the effectiveness of their art whilst everyone else was blowing hot air, if you have distain for them what do you think of all those instructors?!

They could not control the people who showed up, some where fighters or instructors that thought they could fight, no one ever came out and said they were turned away from the Gracie schools, as I said Rickson accepted a challenge from one of the best fighters in Japan when he arrived at his school.

Royce put himself on the line against the best fighter of the day and lost, how can you hate on him for that?

bawang

10-16-2009, 01:21 AM

shaolinexecutioner

10-16-2009, 02:32 AM

bawang, you're confusing a warrior with a soldier of war. I have a good friend goig through chemo right now. She's a warrior.

bawang

10-16-2009, 02:35 AM

if u dont go to war how can u be a warrior
i dont understand how ur friend is a warrior she is a cancer patient

Iron_Eagle_76

10-16-2009, 05:37 AM

one moment you say all kung fu sucks then next you say a lot of moderators on your website do kung fu and are good. im confused:confused::confused:

when people made a thread asking how many hours do they train and many people said they train 1 hour to 4 hours a week i stopped reading your website forums

also there was a guy that made a lot of comics making fun of traditional martial arts then it turned out he did taekwando and couldnt fight at all am i rite?

also i thought you were amazing 200 pound bas rutten clone then i saw your fight and you were flabby guy and lost really fast why all the big talk? are you really that proud because you can beat up a 100 pound kung fu fantasy guy? lol

I'm not going to speak for anyone here, but I believe the point that is trying to be made is that in the past, several instructors of TMA made outlandish claims of the superiority of their styles. When the Gracies came on the scene, rather than just making the claims, they backed them up by accepting challenge matches and beating their opponents. You may not like the Gracies, and many do not. However, the impact they have had on martial arts can not be argued. As for the back and forth banter regarding Kung Fu, all I can say is it is what it is. Probably the best example I can give is that fact that in combat sports circles, Muay Thai is usually the striking art of choice. Why? Mostly due to the training methods involved. Having studied both arts, I can tell you at least in my style of Kung Fu, everything found in Muay Thai I had in Kung Fu. The difference were training methods. This is in no way to insult my Kung Fu, but things can be modified and methods can be improved as to gain the results that make someone better at their art and as a fighter in general. Stagnation is what is the destruction of a martial art, and for far too long many Kung Fu styles have remained stagnant and unwilling to change their training methods. So, my fellow Kung Fu gurus, rather than doing forms, work focus mitts or Thai mitts. Rather than doing compliant two man drills, practice clinch work, locks, and throws where your training partner actually resists. And above all else, rather than playing tag and point sparring or pulling techniques or no hitting the head or whatever other garbage play fighting, put on your head gear, boxing gloves or MMA glove, shin guards, groin cup, and spar to where you actually feel when someone hits you. And before I get flamed by one side saying I spar like this already, this is not for you. Before I get flamed from the side that say blah, blah, this is not productive it is not the deadly street fighting, it is bad for you, my name is Uki and you will feel my wrath, why not just try and see what I am saying. If you think I am full of sh**t afterwards, fine. But this argument can only be settled when both sides try both ways and decide for themselves which is better.

sanjuro_ronin

10-16-2009, 05:41 AM

Iron_Eagle_76

10-16-2009, 05:55 AM

Warrior - some one who fights in a war
Soldier - someone who is part of a military team or unit
Fighter- someone who fights.

I know people like to play it fast and loose with what words mean, but this is a MA forum, the least we can do is be true to the original meanings of the words.

Agreed. I have several friends who are veterans and I would not disrespect what they have done by comparing being a fighter to being a soldier of war. The two are vastly different.

Frost

10-16-2009, 06:32 AM

I'm not going to speak for anyone here, but I believe the point that is trying to be made is that in the past, several instructors of TMA made outlandish claims of the superiority of their styles. When the Gracies came on the scene, rather than just making the claims, they backed them up by accepting challenge matches and beating their opponents. You may not like the Gracies, and many do not. However, the impact they have had on martial arts can not be argued. As for the back and forth banter regarding Kung Fu, all I can say is it is what it is. Probably the best example I can give is that fact that in combat sports circles, Muay Thai is usually the striking art of choice. Why? Mostly due to the training methods involved. Having studied both arts, I can tell you at least in my style of Kung Fu, everything found in Muay Thai I had in Kung Fu. The difference were training methods. This is in no way to insult my Kung Fu, but things can be modified and methods can be improved as to gain the results that make someone better at their art and as a fighter in general. Stagnation is what is the destruction of a martial art, and for far too long many Kung Fu styles have remained stagnant and unwilling to change their training methods. So, my fellow Kung Fu gurus, rather than doing forms, work focus mitts or Thai mitts. Rather than doing compliant two man drills, practice clinch work, locks, and throws where your training partner actually resists. And above all else, rather than playing tag and point sparring or pulling techniques or no hitting the head or whatever other garbage play fighting, put on your head gear, boxing gloves or MMA glove, shin guards, groin cup, and spar to where you actually feel when someone hits you. And before I get flamed by one side saying I spar like this already, this is not for you. Before I get flamed from the side that say blah, blah, this is not productive it is not the deadly street fighting, it is bad for you, my name is Uki and you will feel my wrath, why not just try and see what I am saying. If you think I am full of sh**t afterwards, fine. But this argument can only be settled when both sides try both ways and decide for themselves which is better.

That should be the end of this discussion right there… of course it won’t… but it should be

David Jamieson

10-16-2009, 06:57 AM

paragraphs please.

Ray Pina

10-16-2009, 07:15 AM

if you want sports fighting to be realistic let both guys take a crack cocaine or pcp before the fight. then the fights get exciting instead of erotic touching each other

Its tough enough with a lot of these guys I'm fighting now juiced up like a smoothy. :mad:

Ray Pina

10-16-2009, 07:20 AM

Gracie's need no defending. Their record speaks for itself. That family has and continues to step up on an international level and compete against the best in the world in grappling, MMA and Vale Tudo.

Iron_Eagle_76

10-16-2009, 07:47 AM

paragraphs please.

Hooked on phonics didn't work for me:D That and I'm lazy.

goju

10-16-2009, 11:44 AM

egoistical bragging LAMO! , every instructor of every kung fu/ karate style I have ever met said their style was the best superior to the others etc, the difference was the Gracie’s actually manned up and proved the effectiveness of their art whilst everyone else was blowing hot air, if you have distain for them what do you think of all those instructors?!

They could not control the people who showed up, some where fighters or instructors that thought they could fight, no one ever came out and said they were turned away from the Gracie schools, as I said Rickson accepted a challenge from one of the best fighters in Japan when he arrived at his school.

Royce put himself on the line against the best fighter of the day and lost, how can you hate on him for that?

lol yeah like rickson saying he could destroy how many fighters(brock the nog, fedor) and outright ducking alot of them(sakuraba bas rutten etc etc)when they said they wanted to fight them? he did that how many times?

come on mate the gracies are just as guilty of bs braging and not backing it up as alot of the mcdojo chi warriors out there

as far as their instructors ive been impressed with a number of them and as ive said i like the actual style i just dont particularly care for the gracies

bawang

10-16-2009, 12:26 PM

hi ironeagle,
you are very right. more people in kung fu should be doing those things.
i want to say the people making outlandish claims , would never happen if the kung fu sifus didnt get lured by making easy money fooling westerners, or teaching westerners wrong on purpose because of racism.

as far as their instructors ive been impressed with a number of them and as ive said i like the actual style i just dont particularly care for the gracies
the gracies opened my eyes on ground fighting. if you fight one on one in a sport competition you have to learn it. realistic or not doesn't matter. what matters is mma is a growing sport where you dont stop after you go to the ground. to win you have to learn ju jitsu to play by their rules.

the ufc opened my eyes on training realistically. having a lot of bad teachers and rotting martial arts in that past atmosphere can get to you even if you train seriously.

bullshido made me want to never learn ju jitsu because of their g gay attitude. after seeing tv interview of gracies they are very humble and sincere and i have no problem mixing my kung fu with ju jitsu. if bullshiso made their site more humble they would help unrealistically training people instead of driving them further way.

TenTigers

10-16-2009, 01:06 PM

bawang

10-16-2009, 01:43 PM

this is not a "westerners" thing. It is extremely prevalent in Hong Kong and other Asian countries as well.
But, I do admit, Westerners fell in love with the mystery of Asian Martial Arts, and people really do know how to milk it here.

in china in the past there was intense challening and competition like lei tai and military examinations.

if you kill many bandits as a bodyguard, then you can be famous and get paid much as 5000 pieces of silver a year

there was big money to be made escorting goods to jiangzhou and guizhou. there is a saing "if you are afraid to die dont go to lihua. if youre not a hero dont walk the road of jiangnan."
joining upper ranks of military depends entirely on your skill. if you make many confirmed kills you get promoted to duizhang, then paizhang, then buzhang. you can raise to rank of imeprial great general by your skills alone.
there was a incentive for having real skills.

of course there are always scammers. theres always been people who performed two man forms and tricked common people thinking they were fighting, or did fake breaking skills. but you could openly challenge them.

if you try to challenge a old out of shape fat karate sensei today, hell pull a gun on you and tell you to get out of his dojo

uki

10-16-2009, 01:45 PM

there was a incentive for having real skills.and there is one for teaching and promoting watered down ones aswell...

bawang

10-16-2009, 01:49 PM

and there is one for teaching and promoting watered down ones aswell...
to sleep with hippy white woman student?
if i could have babbies with a bald lesbian like chan master shi yanming i would teach kung fu right now

Its tough enough with a lot of these guys I'm fighting now juiced up like a smoothy. :mad:

hey man, seriously speaking, thats a huge problem. everybody in mma is juicing these days. look at tito ortiz's jaw. it grew 3 times its size after the ultimate fighter show. then i see dana keep a poker face saying theres no steroids in ufc. i watch it less seriously after that lol

uki

10-16-2009, 02:00 PM

i watch it less seriously after that loli didn't realize there was anything serious about it...

bawang

10-16-2009, 02:15 PM

ufc should make everyone fight naked like the greeks

uki

10-16-2009, 02:23 PM

ufc should make everyone fight naked like the greeksthen we can really see who is using the steroids... :p

goju

10-16-2009, 02:50 PM

then we can really see who is using the steroids... :p

no the second thought lets just make that rule for gina carrano:D

Yum Cha

10-16-2009, 03:14 PM

Sport fighting, real fighting, touch fighting, play fighting, form fairy dancing....

Why is there this perception that MA has a "one-size-fits-all" measure of excellence?

For an aggressive, fit, young, hard bloke to fight on a regular basis, is one thing.

For a little, unfit, unaggressive student to fight off a mugger unexpectedly is totally different.

Which one is martial arts? Ha! neither!

Lets not forget the beautiful girl working a gim, <-- cue Ronin-- > that's art!

Do you deny training to the passive because they won't become aggressive?
Do you deny training to the aggressive because they won't become passive?

People have character, and that character is different as the day is long, and so is what they look for within and take from martial arts.

You can love one pastime or pursuit without having to hate others, if you have a bit of intellect, self confidence and understanding of the human condition.

One thing I will posit, is that anybody who is trained over many years, full contact or not, will have more skills than someone untrained. To be the best is a noble pursuit, but irrelevant to most the world.

By the way, without having to raise a hand, I know I could kill all of you lot with one hand, except perhaps Ronin, as hobbits have extra stamina, and Jamison, who is already a Zombie. Not sure about Uki, is he a man, or just a massive colony of bacteria?

Just sayin....

uki

10-16-2009, 03:21 PM

Not sure about Uki, is he a man, or just a massive colony of bacteria?i still stink either way. :p

bawang

10-17-2009, 10:31 AM

For a little, unfit, unaggressive student to fight off a mugger unexpectedly is totally different.

unfit unaggressive people cant do anything to anyone

one of my distant relatives got shot delivering pizza in new york. gangsters killed him for fun. dont think any kind of bare hand martial art can save you, kung fu or muay thai or mma or nigerian crocodile wrestling. unless you also have a gun the robber decide if you live or die

if you want to carry kung fu into the modern world but stay traditional, instead of adding ground fighting add knife and gun training.

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 01:59 PM

Hi Bawang,

I think we've pretty well established that gun fu trumps kung fu. As well the concept that kung fu training can take an unfit timid person and give them aggression and fitness.

The rest, as they say, is simply the measure of the man, or woman, and how well they have trained and conditioned themselves, mind and body, to confront aggression and physical danger and deal with it, either through physical or psychological methods. Confidence.

And I do mean to include confidence coming to the conclusion that this is a no-win situation, and looking for an escape, or taking a beating and minimising the damage, as well as I mean taking someone out hard as quickly as possible, or intimidating the threat out of the aggressor.

This 'do what you have to do' thinking is obviously significantly different to sport fighting thinking. I consider one the training, the other is the objective.

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:12 PM

gun fu doesnt have to trump kung fu. they can be the same thing. guns have been in the chinese military for over 1000 years.

i think bare hand fighting of kung fu is a very small part, but is looked too important these days because of bruce lee.

mma is designed to most efficiently fight barehand. barehand kung fu is not. barehand kung fu uses the postures for weapon fighting. you fight like youre holding a invisible weapon because its for training reaction time for weapons.

uki

10-17-2009, 02:23 PM

mma is designed to win one on one empty hand fight in most efficient way possible, kung fu is not.thats because kung fu(considering we use the term as it's applied to the forums here) is designed to whip multiple peoples a$$es at once, not just one on one in a cage or ring with rules and regualtions, which are a form of LIMITATION applied to ones martial capability in a real situation... i agree though, no amount of iron shirt training is gonna stop my 12 gauge 000 buckshot at point blank. :p

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 02:27 PM

mma is designed to most efficiently fight barehand. barehand kung fu is not.

So much said with so few words. Well done, however, I'm not sure I can agree until you clarify a bit.

What is efficiently?
- quickly?
- with less energy?
- with less training?
- sort of a 'grand total' of the lot?

Or

does it have to do with the level of skill attainable by the greatest number of people, maybe a collective measure as opposed to an individual?

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:30 PM

So much said with so few words. Well done, however, I'm not sure I can agree until you clarify a bit.

What is efficiently?
- quickly?
- with less energy?
- with less training?
- sort of a 'grand total' of the lot?

Or

does it have to do with the level of skill attainable by the greatest number of people, maybe a collective measure as opposed to an individual?

hi this is obvious. mixed martial artists train with extreme physical conditioning with scientific methods. they watch their diet, they have special personal training schedules, they take supplments, they test against thousands of other athletes so what doesnt work for them isnt used.

they practice what they preach. theyre not lazy

uki

10-17-2009, 02:32 PM

this is obvious. mixed martial artists train with extreme physical conditioning with scientific methods. they watch their diet, they have special personal training schedules, they take supplments, they test against thousands of other athletes so what doesnt work for them isnt used.and then take these same knuckleheads and place them against a father defending his children and they will be slaughtered faster than sheep in a slaughter house. :)

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:36 PM

chuck liddel doesnt go around breaking into people's houses and pillage your womens like a bruce lee movie. they compete in a ring. they are peorfessional athletes. why do you keep saying that? thats annoying. my balls itch.
lets see you defend against a east coast drive by. lolololo

uki

10-17-2009, 02:43 PM

chuck liddel doesnt go around breaking into people's houses and pillage your womens like a bruce lee movie. i don't care what their name is...

they compete in a ring. they are peorfessional athletes. exactly... they compete in a ring... a different end of the spectrum my friend.

why do you keep saying that? thats annoying. any traditionalist knows repitition is annoying...

my balls itch.thanks for sharing... scratch them silly.

lets see you defend against a east coast drive by. lolololoLOL... most people are afraid to drive their cars down my 200+ yard driveway littered with potholes... but, you can try if you want... after the trees are dropped behind your car i will play target practice with a combination of 1 oz slugs and buckshot - you can run, but our property borders a bog-like area, so you might have a chance if you smear mud on yourself and sink in the lowlands, otherwise... it would be utterly futile for anyone to try. :D

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:47 PM

but a well trained soviet army could crush your house
AND TAKE YOUR WOMANS :(

uki

10-17-2009, 02:48 PM

but a well trained soviet army could crush your house
AND TAKE YOUR WOMANS.of course, but i'll be taking more than a fair share of them out with me.

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:49 PM

but it shows soviet army million man horde is superior

i win

lets just say one day you run out of suppplies for your nuclear bunker, you lock your children in a underground cave and you go to a city for grocery shopping. if you get a gun pointed at you you wont be saying any of this bad ass rambo corny lines. you will be on your knees wearing lipstick and your new name is wanda. wanda johnson.

uki

10-17-2009, 02:52 PM

but it shows soviet army million man horde is superiorthey have to get here first... then they have to get rid of all the rednecks that have nothing left to live for.

i wini wasn't aware that it was a contest...

bawang

10-17-2009, 02:57 PM

i won dont argue anymore okay

yum cha,sure you can teach a system out of respect for tradition but we always need to remember reality

bawang

10-17-2009, 03:04 PM

hi yum cha, there is a important story

in the ming dynasty a prince had a martial art gathering and many famous stick fighters were there
there was a nobody who came ,he claimed he was a shaolin monk. he duel all of the famous guys one at a time, and each get knock out in 1 hit . the people all ask him whats his style whats his secret how does he train, he only said 8 words
"join a flowery style, ruin your whole life"

the chinese martial art world is full of fakes and tricksters since the beginning. you cant stay blindly loyal to one style or only to chinese styles. we ned to be open and humble.

uki

10-17-2009, 03:04 PM

sure you can teach a system out of respect for tradition but you always need to remember realityand the reality is the intention behind the actions...

bawang

10-17-2009, 03:13 PM

no, it is the supplication of the endoplasticity of the meticulation of intention testicluation leading to the greater circle, to the small circle the anus, thus action. that is dao.
*stroke beard

David Jamieson

10-17-2009, 03:31 PM

and the reality is the intention behind the actions...

what are your intentions then?

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 03:35 PM

the chinese martial art world is full of fakes and tricksters since the beginning. you cant stay blindly loyal to one style or only to chinese styles. we ned to be open and humble.

I think this is the point you've been alluding to. I think it is an underlying consideration of us all. What can I say, I agree.

However, once you get beyond the frauds and tricksters and look into yourself, as a student of the arts, its your responsibility to find the rich vein. Learn from your mistakes and move forward, finding training that meets your needs. There is no small amount of luck involved in finding a good teacher.

Still, you do really feel for people who are not getting what they think they are getting.

bawang

10-17-2009, 03:44 PM

David Jamieson

10-17-2009, 03:48 PM

wanda johnson...

that was funny. regardless of who it was directed at. :p

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 03:51 PM

hi this is obvious. mixed martial artists train with extreme physical conditioning with scientific methods. they watch their diet, they have special personal training schedules, they take supplments, they test against thousands of other athletes so what doesnt work for them isnt used.

they practice what they preach. theyre not lazy

Well, you won't get any argument from me that these pros are elite athletes, massively trained and experienced, and awesome fighters.

However, I will dispute the obviousness of the efficiency of this training:

Efficient fighters, in the ring, laying down the skills, well, there are some very efficient moves they can't use, eyes, joints, throat, groin....

Of course, other technical skills do counter-balance that inefficiency, and we are being theoretical...

Also, it takes an extreme amount of training to get there, and while you may get good skills in 2-3 years, the hours would be well beyond some kid in judo class couple of days a week.

Pain, injury, recovery, all part of the training. Lots of it.

I think by now you can see where I'm going. Put it all together and it is elite, not efficient.

Tae Kwon Do, Wing Chun, Judo, Karate, BJJ, Boxing, I think they are pretty efficient when it comes to developing a high level of skill, quickly. Not that I would consider them elite.

So, it is all good to theorise about the skills and efficiency of the elite of the elite, and the practical implications of their highly evolved skills, physical and mental training, but it just does not apply to the reality of the situation for the vast majority of the worlds martial artists.

David Jamieson

10-17-2009, 03:57 PM

taser = efficient way of stopping a potential or real opponent.

martial arts = not

lol

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 03:58 PM

hi yum cha, yes we evolve, but we also need to evolve to be better
if a man evolves into a monkey then thats not good

i think the important thing right now is for the chinese martial arts world to regulate itself, to get rid of people who are fake and not good.

the website bullshido.com is full of people who had horrible, even tramatic experience with traditional martial arts. if we dont change things will stay the same.

Yea, I know what you mean, I don't think we have the same issues here in Oz that you have stateside though. None of the big chain schools, a few commercial operations with weak skills, not naming names, but otherwise, pretty good, face value stuff. There are a good core of solid traditional schools, Chen Yong Fa Choy Lee Fut, Pak Hok from the Chan Hak Fu line and other Chinese schools started in the post wwII migration from HK period. Like I said, luck plays a big part.

bawang

10-17-2009, 03:59 PM

taser = efficient way of stopping a potential or real opponent.

martial arts = not

lol

we are talking about one on one bare hand fighting for competition and entertainment
its easy to use the "weapon" argument

Yea, I know what you mean, I don't think we have the same issues here in Oz that you have stateside though. None of the big chain schools, a few commercial operations with weak skills, not naming names, but otherwise, pretty good, face value stuff. There are a good core of solid traditional schools, Chen Yong Fa Choy Lee Fut, Pak Hok from the Chan Hak Fu line and other Chinese schools started in the post wwII migration from HK period. Like I said, luck plays a big part.

thats good to know. its different in many other parts of canada and us, especially small towns.
any martial art is good enough , but i just think if you want to be the best then mma is best. many western people have trouble using the simplest ideas and concepts from chinese martial arts especially southern

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 04:00 PM

taser = efficient way of stopping a potential or real opponent.

martial arts = not

lol

I think Uki would submit, bacterial warfare....:D

Yum Cha

10-17-2009, 04:02 PM

we are talking about one on one bare hand fighting for competition and entertainment
its easy to use the "weapon" argument

Hey, wait a minute, don't forget self defence...

And yea, weapons kinda trump H2H, given some considerations, we all agree...

bawang

10-17-2009, 04:06 PM

yeah mentioning weapons is really cheap.
we argue with weapons then nuclear bomb beats everything.
or giant alien laser that disables nuclear bomb and blow up eveyrthing

David Jamieson

10-17-2009, 04:21 PM

yeah mentioning weapons is really cheap.
we argue with weapons then nuclear bomb beats everything.
or giant alien laser that disables nuclear bomb and blow up eveyrthing

I can get a taser, or a gun for that matter, but it's a little hard getting your hands on a nuke.

for the street, you need the edge, for the ring, you need to train to the venue.

winner takes all. :)

uki

10-17-2009, 04:45 PM

Efficient fighters, in the ring, laying down the skills, well, there are some very efficient moves they can't use, eyes, joints, throat, groin...which makes them more likely to make muscle-memory knee jerk reactions that are flawed when it comes to an actual un-sanctioned situation... sport fighters are limited and they train to be limited in order to fight in the sport of fighting. :)

I think Uki would submit.the day i submit is the day someone kills me.

taser = efficient way of stopping a potential or real opponent.

martial arts = nota highly subjective presumption... my friend(fellow student) and myself went out drinking one night a few years ago and all hell broke loose in the bar... the police showed up and shot my friend with a tazer and i told them to stop because they were giving him more energy... LOL... they didn't listen of course... two shots later and no effect - it ended up taking 6 grown police officers to get my friend into the squad car.

bawang

10-17-2009, 04:51 PM

I can get a taser, or a gun for that matter, but it's a little hard getting your hands on a nuke.

for the street, you need the edge, for the ring, you need to train to the venue.

winner takes all. :)

you can carry guns in cananda???!?!?!?!how omg

uki

10-17-2009, 04:54 PM

you can carry guns in cananda???!?!?!?!how omgscared, insecure little sh!ts need to carry guns...

bawang

10-17-2009, 04:55 PM

thats right im scared and insecure. now tell me how dave jamieson!!!! i thought only some states in usa allow guns?

uki

10-17-2009, 04:56 PM

i don't carry the shotgun on me... :rolleyes:

David Jamieson

10-17-2009, 07:07 PM

you can carry guns in cananda???!?!?!?!how omg

join a police force.

go hunting!

be a military person.

join a gun club.

etc. :p

Ray Pina

10-18-2009, 03:02 PM

scared, insecure little sh!ts need to carry guns...

I used to feel that way. Now I live somewhere where a lot of aggressive men own and carry fire arms. In that case, I am the insecure little $hit who needs a gun.

Didn't get a chance to go this week but will be getting one soon.

Frost

10-19-2009, 01:07 AM

lol yeah like rickson saying he could destroy how many fighters(brock the nog, fedor) and outright ducking alot of them(sakuraba bas rutten etc etc)when they said they wanted to fight them? he did that how many times?

You need to distinguish between a pro fighter looking for a good pay day, and someone ducking challenge matches, one the family started to fight for money he decided to look after himself and his family by looking for the best paydays he could find

Still as far as I am aware Rickson never ducked a challenger that turned up and offered to fight him, what he did do was a) offer his opinion on fighters when asked it (and what older fighter does not do this) and b) he sought the best pay day for a pro fight he felt he could get at his advanced age.

He fought Funaki over Sak because Funaki was at the time a god in Japan and a much bigger draw and thus a bigger pay day for him (hell I think the pay day he got for that fight was the biggest single purse a MMA fighter has seen to date)

Was he scared to fight Sak, may be but we will never know as his son died when the negotiations were on going and that changed his outlook on life, and who are we to judge that?

As for Bas I can’t remember him ever challenging Rickson directly but I could be wrong, and rickson never fought in the USA because the pay days were so low compared to Japen, can’t blame him for that

Rickson put a very high price on his head for pro fights, and the Japanese were happy to pay it (hell pride was set up just so he could fight Takada for a massive pay date after he had initially refused to fight Takada or any Japanese wrestler because of the fixed fight thing.)

But when challengers turned up at his school he never turned them away, how may instructors do you know that would accept a fight for free with a top foreign fighter?

Frost

10-19-2009, 01:39 AM

Well, you won't get any argument from me that these pros are elite athletes, massively trained and experienced, and awesome fighters.

However, I will dispute the obviousness of the efficiency of this training:

Efficient fighters, in the ring, laying down the skills, well, there are some very efficient moves they can't use, eyes, joints, throat, groin....

Of course, other technical skills do counter-balance that inefficiency, and we are being theoretical...

Also, it takes an extreme amount of training to get there, and while you may get good skills in 2-3 years, the hours would be well beyond some kid in judo class couple of days a week.

Pain, injury, recovery, all part of the training. Lots of it.

I think by now you can see where I'm going. Put it all together and it is elite, not efficient.

Tae Kwon Do, Wing Chun, Judo, Karate, BJJ, Boxing, I think they are pretty efficient when it comes to developing a high level of skill, quickly. Not that I would consider them elite.

So, it is all good to theorise about the skills and efficiency of the elite of the elite, and the practical implications of their highly evolved skills, physical and mental training, but it just does not apply to the reality of the situation for the vast majority of the worlds martial artists.

No need to argue about the elite, take two guys that train 3 times a week, one in a traditional class where he does forms, weapons, chi gung, two man forms and a little sparring. The other does MMA, spars every class, rolls every class hits the bag and pads every class and has done 2 or 3 competitions in a few years.

Now in a real situation where both can use so called deadly techniques, both have probabley drilled them against a moving opponent the same amount of time (ie not that much)…..which one do you is more prepared to defend themselves if an altercation occurs, who will be better situated to deal with the adrenaline dump of a real confrontation?

Frost

10-19-2009, 04:26 AM

which makes them more likely to make muscle-memory knee jerk reactions that are flawed when it comes to an actual un-sanctioned situation... sport fighters are limited and they train to be limited in order to fight in the sport of fighting. :)
.

And you train to hit those weak areas all the time will full force and against full resistance right….?:rolleyes:
Because if not your chances of hitting them in an actual confrontation when the adrenaline is flowing is even less than the sports fighters, who at least are used to hitting someone who is trying to take their head off

sanjuro_ronin

10-19-2009, 05:59 AM

By the way, without having to raise a hand, I know I could kill all of you lot with one hand, except perhaps Ronin, as hobbits have extra stamina, and Jamison, who is already a Zombie. Not sure about Uki, is he a man, or just a massive colony of bacteria?

Just sayin....

Too funny !!

sanjuro_ronin

10-19-2009, 06:03 AM

I can't believe that we are still having the untrained street fighter VS the trained professional fighter debate !!
LMAO !!

Frost

10-19-2009, 06:10 AM

I can't believe that we are still having the untrained street fighter VS the trained professional fighter debate !!
LMAO !!
10,000 posts and you still over estimate the intelligence of the average poster here... shame on you I think you have taken too many hits to the head :D

David Jamieson

10-19-2009, 06:31 AM

Too funny !!

Braaaaaaaiiiiiinnnnnsssss....

sanjuro_ronin

10-19-2009, 07:10 AM

10,000 posts and you still over estimate the intelligence of the average poster here... shame on you I think you have taken too many hits to the head :D

The sad part is that there is too much truth in your post !!
:D

Frost

10-19-2009, 07:20 AM

The sad part is that there is too much truth in your post !!
:D
at lease you have an excuse.... some here do not lol

Yum Cha

10-19-2009, 09:27 PM

No need to argue about the elite, take two guys that train 3 times a week, one in a traditional class where he does forms, weapons, chi gung, two man forms and a little sparring. The other does MMA, spars every class, rolls every class hits the bag and pads every class and has done 2 or 3 competitions in a few years.

Now in a real situation where both can use so called deadly techniques, both have probabley drilled them against a moving opponent the same amount of time (ie not that much)…..which one do you is more prepared to defend themselves if an altercation occurs, who will be better situated to deal with the adrenaline dump of a real confrontation?

I don't think the debate here is about whether pressure training with lots of resisting opponents is better than training without. Similarly, training for top level fitness is better than not. The point I'm trying to make is that if that were the only alternative, many people would simply go without any training.

You guys are so young that you forget, that was the whole promise of martial arts in back in the day, whimpy guys could learn how to fight when the big bullies kicked sand in their face at the beach....oh wait, maybe that was the Jack LaLane ads, but you get my point?

They find an alternative that works for them and in time, it can take them to a higher level. Higher being relative, not absolute.

As I said, taking a good athlete, aggressive and fit and turning them into a good fighter is easy. Working a timid unfit individual into a person able to defend themselves and enjoy more confidence is another matter. A few even get really good, but I wouldn't claim quickly or easily. It has its own rewards as well.

The problem with this argument is the assumption that fighting is the ONLY measure of an individual's return form their study. It just ain't so for the vast majority.

35-40 years of this sh1t, and you find yourself evolving. Enjoy where you are, but don't forget to plan ahead.

Ray Pina

10-20-2009, 12:15 PM

.. sport fighters are limited and they train to be limited in order to fight in the sport of fighting. :)

the day i submit is the day someone kills me.
.

I would bet that a professional MMAer has better striking, throws, locks and submissions than you do... they are only limited from striking a few targets in a few circumstances. The skills are all there.

If a man can clinch you and control you... which I again would bet they would have no problem doing to most, if not all of us here, he can stick his thumb in your eye just as easily as feed you a clean elbow. If he can pin you to the ground in side control, he can work elbows or tear out your throat with his teeth.

Comfort level under duress and violence.... daily, routine resistance training standing, on the ground, against walls.... strikes, kicks and locks from ALL disciplines.... this is what MMA training brings

Why do you assume someone that purposely chose such a violent training and competitive format would have problems stepping it up in a real life altercation but somehow these flowery, non-fighting Kung Fu people are secretly hidden terrors?

Fighters LIKE to fight. I enjoy punching someone in their face. I love kicking someone so good they collapse. Its rewarding.

I had to search far and wide to achieve that in Kung Fu and when I did it was still not to the level that suited me. I had to elsewhere. And I would argue that in NYC I was exposed to better Kung Fu than most.... though I know San Fran and Montreal has some decent stuff.

Ray Pina

10-20-2009, 12:20 PM

Also, this whole, "The day I submit is the day I day" and how the love of your family makes you invincible....

that's all talk. Go to your local BJJ studio and play with a brown or back belt: YOU WILL SUBMIT. Chances are a good blue belt or purple belt would submit you as well.

Go fight one of these "limited" sport fighters. Bring your family. Put them front row. See what your love for each other does for you.

Until you do that, all the talk is just bull$hit.

I never lose when I wear my magic pants but they don't let me fight in them:rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin

10-20-2009, 12:23 PM

the day i submit is the day someone kills me.

.

You have no idea what you are saying, no offense but this post just shows how inexperienced you are with grappling.

goju

10-20-2009, 01:56 PM

persian butt fighting will make you sumbit uki:D

David Jamieson

10-20-2009, 03:12 PM

The barrier that people have in those pursuits that lack any contact is that they lack experience with giving and getting struck. Or given and getting locked.

Trying to get a lock on is often as hard as trying to get out of it.

Planting a decent shot, kick, knee or elbow is also often as difficult to do as to evade or defend from.

The actual feel of the give and take of the clash is alien to many.

To do it (participate in physical jousting) without anger or prejudice is so far out of many people's understanding as to actually reflect upon it as quite remarkable contextually compared to the overall human experience.

People who actually have the will to fight are not common in society as a whole.

And to stay within the law, and still exercise that will, what else is there but mma? Crime? No thanks.

The point of training is to come to understand yourself. If you don't present yourself to yourself at even the level of give and get of sport, without concluding that all conflict must be life threatening and ergo it is black vs white or nothing... then yeah, you probably can beat on someone but likely may or may not actually be able to fight at all.

You just never know if you don't in the case of sportive combative.

It's not like you have to compete all the time or even spar full contact all the time.
mma is a different training path though, that's for sure. goes good with kungfu training in some ways and not so good in others.

meh, what are you goona do? Take it or leave it. It's ok to do either or both.

Yum Cha

10-20-2009, 03:23 PM