Setting The Anchors

[ChinaBoxer]

developing “rooting” power is a VERY difficult “little idea” to tackle, and can be a very “advanced” concept which also opens up whole new set of “questions”, and to be honest, most instructors don’t have a clear and concise way to teach this concept or don’t fully understand the concept or worse, they contradict themselves while trying to teach this concept.

instructors will say, “root” but when you ask “how”? they usually expain with such vague answers such as “just drop your stance” or “relax” or “get heavy” but how the heck does that really explain anything to the student other than just “skimming the surface”, and the real answer is usually because the instructors only understand the “tip of the iceburg” but don’t even “see” the “huge body of ice” that supports that “tip”.

this video will also help you realize “how i personally see things” from “my point of view”, especially when i get questions from all of you.

don’t take this video lightly, there are many “keys” to your questions here. and this will also help you understand why i say you can’t mix different “methods” of getting power. after seeing this video, hopefully you get why you can’t do this method of wing chun structure and try to incorporate it with a muay thai stance, or a boxers stance which has you light on your feet, heels off the ground, rotating your shoulders etc…

this video shares with you how i teach my students this “grounding” concept, which is the “heart” of Hawkins Cheung’s method of Wing Chun and IMO what makes him completely different than almost every other Wing Chun instructor in the world.

it is one of the “keys” to putting the “big picture” together, so i really hope everyone enjoys it, learns from it, grows from it and appreciates the information.

you can view the video... here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/09/setting-the-anchors/)

Jin

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is "rooting" and why do so many highly effective systems of combat never bother to address it specifically?
The two systems you mentioned, boxing and MT, develop excellent power in their strikes and never is one coached about "rooting".

[Knifefighter]

don’t take this video lightly, there are many “keys” to your questions here. and this will also help you understand why i say you can’t mix different “methods” of getting power. after seeing this video, hopefully you get why you can’t do this method of wing chun structure and try to incorporate it with a muay thai stance, or a boxers stance which has you light on your feet, heels off the ground, rotating your shoulders etc…

Why not? MMA guys mix a wrestling base with boxing and Muay Thai stances all the time. A good fighter should be able to switch his base depending on the circumstances.

Speaking of base (or rooting as it is calling in TMA's), the best way to develop it is to actually do activities, such as takedowns and throws against resisting opponents, that require you to have a good base to defend. You won't find anyone in the world who has better "rooting" than grapplers.

Lots of people think of rooting as sinking, lowering or somehow doing something to your body to make it more stable. Rooting is much more about your response to your opponent's application of force than it is to your specific stance. You'll never develop rooting without practicing against resisting opponents who are trying to "unroot" you and throw, push, or take you down.

BTW, I'm not sure why you would be teaching a triangle step, bringing the feet together when you are trying to teach rooting. The instant you bring your two feet together, you have no base at all.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The instant you bring your two feet together, you have no base at all.

Granted, the base is very very small and difficult to maintain, but there IS a base. It's not the optimal stance for fighting, but training with it can improve one's fighting base: The level of relaxation, attention, and balance required to maintain a feet-together stance under pressure can be transferred to a more functional stance. Nevertheless, for anyone wanting to learn the functional side of their art, functional stance training is probably better to do first.

[IRONMONK]

One of my old intructors used to talk about having the knees pointing towards the tip of the triangle. I don't know if it's coincidence but after practising the form with that visualisation I started to get "runner's knee" in both of my legs which took a quite a while to go away. It could be because I have flat feet but now I just keep the knee over my toe.

[Knifefighter]

Granted, the base is very very small and difficult to maintain, but there IS a base. It's not the optimal stance for fighting, but training with it can improve one's fighting base: The level of relaxation, attention, and balance required to maintain a feet-together stance under pressure can be transferred to a more functional stance. Nevertheless, for anyone wanting to learn the functional side of their art, functional stance training is probably better to do first.

That is almost the least stable position you can be in and have both feet on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

One of my old intructors used to talk about having the knees pointing towards the tip of the triangle. I don't know if it's coincidence but after practising the form with that visualisation I started to get "runner's knee" in both of my legs which took a quite a while to go away. It could be because I have flat feet but now I just keep the knee over my toe.

That's because it causes extra stress on the knee joint and increases the chances of knee injury.

[Buddha_Fist]

Too much talk for a basic concept: Rooting = To use footwork that does not compromise your balance while you're delivering an attack.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rooting/Anchoring with the triangle step is fine - once you've gained access (or a path) to enter into his space and you're now working to eat up more of his space while using your arms/hands to either strike, bridge, or unbalance.

But this all begs the question: Have I gained access (ie.- bridged the gap) without getting hit, (ie.- round punched, overhanded, or hooked around my wing chun guard) - and without immediately facing a takedown by a skilled wrestler/grappler type?

Because the triangular stepping demoed here - and which is so prevalent within the wing chun arsenal throughout virtually (but not necessarily literally) every wing chun system...

has nothing to do with any range other than very close range STRIKING...and is basically useless against a good wrestler/grappler who is still in a position to take you down as you come in with this triangle footwork...or a good boxer, kickboxer, Thai boxer type who is timing your entry for a big punch - like those punches I described earlier.

In conclusion, the triangle step (and all the strong rooting/anchoring it can provide) can work well if, and only if, it's too late for him to land the punch or the shoot.

And even when it's too late for either of those things - there's still the possibility of a clinch - which provides the same dilemma already described: Have I gained access to this range (and while using this footwork) that won't result in a clinch?

Because if not, as knifefighter has already pointed out, I would prefer a more open stance to be "anchored/rooted" with than the close-legged triangular stepping pattern - as the wider base will provide much stronger rooting/anchoring stability against the attempt to clinch by the opponent.

So when is the triangle step efficient, then?

Imo, it's when the opponent is in the process of making a committed move that allows you the time and the angle to get in with this as part of your counter, or you've already landed a punch or a kick from the outside that stunned him - and now this footwork can be used to follow up and possibly finish him with your continued striking and unbalancing.

[duende]

Rooting/Anchoring with the triangle step is fine - once you've gained access (or a path) to enter into his space and you're now working to eat up more of his space while using your arms/hands to either strike, bridge, or unbalance.

But this all begs the question: Have I gained access (ie.- bridged the gap) without getting hit, (ie.- round punched, overhanded, or hooked around my wing chun guard) - and without immediately facing a takedown by a skilled wrestler/grappler type?

Because the triangular stepping demoed here - and which is so prevalent within the wing chun arsenal throughout virtually (but not necessarily literally) every wing chun system...

has nothing to do with any range other than very close range STRIKING...and is basically useless against a good wrestler/grappler who is still in a position to take you down as you come in with this triangle footwork...or a good boxer, kickboxer, Thai boxer type who is timing your entry for a big punch - like those punches I described earlier.

In conclusion, the triangle step (and all the strong rooting/anchoring it can provide) can work well if, and only if, it's too late for him to land the punch or the shoot.

And even when it's too late for either of those things - there's still the possibility of a clinch - which provides the same dilemma already described: Have I gained access to this range (and while using this footwork) that won't result in a clinch?

Because if not, as knifefighter has already pointed out, I would prefer a more open stance to be "anchored/rooted" with than the close-legged triangular stepping pattern - as the wider base will provide much stronger rooting/anchoring stability against the attempt to clinch by the opponent.

So when is the triangle step efficient, then?

Imo, it's when the opponent is in the process of making a committed move that allows you the time and the angle to get in with this as part of your counter, or you've already landed a punch or a kick from the outside that stunned him - and now this footwork can be used to follow up and possibly finish him with your continued striking and unbalancing.

Great post Victor!

Triangle footwork is not the best tool for engagement. Against experienced opponents it is way to easy to crash, and overwhelm.

[anerlich]

to be honest, most instructors don’t have a clear and concise way to teach this concept or don’t fully understand the concept or worse, they contradict themselves while trying to teach this concept

To be honest, posters basically lose credibility with me when they start berating "most instructors" like this. It happens regularly and often on this forum, and you sound just like the aforementioned "most instructors", who do the same thing.

If you really have something good to say, you don't need to drag others down to make yourself sound good.

[Vajramusti]

If you really have something good to say, you don't need to drag others down to make yourself sound good.
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We would all benefit if we cut down on overgeneralizations and stereotypes.

It's good that the videos were put out.

It's so easy to be critical.


joy chaudhuri

[Knifefighter]

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We would all benefit if we cut down on overgeneralizations and stereotypes.

It's good that the videos were put out.

It's so easy to be critical.


joy chaudhuri

I think you missed the point. Anerlich was citing the point that he was putting down other instructors, while saying he did it better.

[ChinaBoxer]

To be honest, posters basically lose credibility with me when they start berating "most instructors" like this. It happens regularly and often on this forum, and you sound just like the aforementioned "most instructors", who do the same thing.

If you really have something good to say, you don't need to drag others down to make yourself sound good.

you make a good point, i didn't mean to sound like that at all, but i do understand where you are coming from, i will definitely keep this in mind in the future. thanks!

Jin

[Vajramusti]

I think you missed the point. Anerlich was citing the point that he was putting down other instructors, while saying he did it better.
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I got the point- endorsed it and praised China Boxer for putting his video up.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

I didn't actually watch the video and have no comment on it. I took issue with the post, which made me feel my time might be better spent doing something other than watching the video.


i didn't mean to sound like that at all

Your words didn't allow many alternative interpretations, I'm afraid.

[sihing]

Your words didn't allow many alternative interpretations, I'm afraid.

Maybe for you Andrew, not all.

JR

[TenTigers]

two things-
1) you can indeed root from one leg, from higher stances, from heels up, etc. It is a matter of aligning your structure against pressure, not about lowering your horse.
2) Dale-don't you practice FMA? Do you use the triangle steps in your practice?
I know when I studied FMA, we did many variations of the triangles'forward, reverse, attacking defending, etc.

Great stuff, CB-keep it up!

[ChinaBoxer]

two things-
1) you can indeed root from one leg, from higher stances, from heels up, etc. It is a matter of aligning your structure against pressure, not about lowering your horse.
2) Dale-don't you practice FMA? Do you use the triangle steps in your practice?
I know when I studied FMA, we did many variations of the triangles'forward, reverse, attacking defending, etc.

Great stuff, CB-keep it up!thanks for the words of encouragement, and just to clarify the "V" step is just a "transitional" movement, it's not a static position. and any martial art that uses "triangle footwork" such as Kali/Escrima, JKD, Silat etc..all use the "V" step as well, to "transition" or use it to kick while in "transition".

Jin

[Knifefighter]

two things-
1) you can indeed root from one leg, from higher stances, from heels up, etc. It is a matter of aligning your structure against pressure, not about lowering your horse.!
It always strikes me a funny when someone claims to be all about structure and then makes statements that show they don't even know the basics of what constitutes structure.

2) Dale-don't you practice FMA? Do you use the triangle steps in your practice?
I know when I studied FMA, we did many variations of the triangles'forward, reverse, attacking defending, etc.
Don't use it because of the fact that it compromises one's base and makes it significantly easier to be taken down.

[TenTigers]

It always strikes me a funny when someone claims to be all about structure and then makes statements that show they don't even know the basics of what constitutes structure.

Don't use it because of the fact that it compromises one's base and makes it significantly easier to be taken down.

ok, we may have different interpetations of structure. Could you please tell me what your definition of structure is, and why my comment is flawed?

Also, I was referring to using triangle footwork for offensive/defensive mobilty in your stand-up game. Could you also in detail explain your points? Thanx.

[Knifefighter]

ok, we may have different interpetations of structure. Could you please tell me what your definition of structure is, and why my comment is flawed?

Also, I was referring to using triangle footwork for offensive/defensive mobilty in your stand-up game. Could you also in detail explain your points? Thanx.

I was referring to your comment regarding having "root" on one leg. One of the basic tenants of structural stability (you can ask a structural engineer about this) is that the narrower the base, the less stable the structure.

[jdhowland]

...One of the basic tenants of structural stability (you can ask a structural engineer about this) is that the narrower the base, the less stable the structure.

That's just silly. Human stability depends on adaptation to forces, not on a synchronic posture. We train in single-leg stances against body crashes as a regular part of our curriculum. The foot usually moves, but balance is maintained. Isn't that a kind of "rooted" stability?

jd

[Knifefighter]

That's just silly. Human stability depends on adaptation to forces, not on a synchronic posture. We train in single-leg stances against body crashes as a regular part of our curriculum. The foot usually moves, but balance is maintained. Isn't that a kind of "rooted" stability?

jd

Of course stability in movement requires adaptation to applied forces. That's what I said in my first post. That still doesn't change the fact that the narrower the base, the more precarious the stability.

There's a reason that one of the first things you are taught in all competitive sports that require contact is to never bring your feet together.

[TenTigers]

I get that. I was pointing out that it is based on alignment and adaptation to directional force more than "base," when someone connects to your bridge, but yes, when dealing with the overall stability of the body, the wider the base, the greater the stability. So we're pretty much in agreement on that.
The reason I mentioned that is because many people-especially in TCMA (who were incorrectly trained) feel that rooting is all about standing low,wide, and flat-footed.

So, could you address the triangle footwork? Thanx.

[Knifefighter]

I get that. I was pointing out that it is based on alignment and adaptation to directional force more than "base," when someone connects to your bridge, but yes, when dealing with the overall stability of the body, the wider the base, the greater the stability. So we're pretty much in agreement on that.
The reason I mentioned that is because many people-especially in TCMA (who were incorrectly trained) feel that rooting is all about standing low,wide, and flat-footed.

So, could you address the triangle footwork? Thanx.

Bringing your feet together gives more options in terms of directional changes. However, it is very easy for an opponent to time this and use it to his advantage.

This type of footwork is much better suited for weapons (especially blades) where mobility is more important than stability.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . hopefully you get why you can’t do this method of wing chun structure and try to incorporate it with a muay thai stance, or a boxers stance which has you light on your feet, heels off the ground, rotating your shoulders etc…

this video shares with you how i teach my students this “grounding” concept, which is the “heart” of Hawkins Cheung’s method of Wing Chun and IMO what makes him completely different than almost every other Wing Chun instructor in the world. . . .
Jin

In our WC we NEVER want our heels on the ground.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Jin, have you ever competed in any full contact events using Wing Chun??

[Xiao3 Meng4]

GM Tsui Sheung Tin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cJkJeKpGt8&NR=1

Jim Fung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJzuNojxr7I&feature=related

I bet these guys wouldn't fight like this, nevertheless there's an idea at play here that if you can successfully maintain structure and balance against pressure on the smallest base possible, then it becomes much easier with a bigger base. Also it's cool at parties. ;)

I'd like to see something similar but with varying force vectors and strategies.

[Buddha_Fist]

GM Tsui Sheung Tin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cJkJeKpGt8&NR=1

Jim Fung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJzuNojxr7I&feature=related

I bet these guys wouldn't fight like this, nevertheless there's an idea at play here that if you can successfully maintain structure and balance against pressure on the smallest base possible, then it becomes much easier with a bigger base. Also it's cool at parties. ;)

I'd like to see something similar but with varying force vectors and strategies.


Nonsense. Both Jim Fung and Tsui Tseung Tin are out of balance as they are leaning into the person "pushing". The guy "pushing" has his arms extended, and can therefore not exert any significant pressure as he's not walking forward. A circus trick with absolutely zero value.

Simple statics: The narrower the base, the smaller is the "resisting moment" opposing the "overturning moment". This applies also to bodies in motion. What is needed is a stable/balanced stance that is highly mobile. The wider the stance the better - until it affects mobility.

[LSWCTN1]

In our WC we NEVER want our heels on the ground.

although i have never studied TWC - i think i can see the value in this.

does it apply to constant forward pressure? as soon as the heels come down its delaying you ever so slightly.

the only problems i can see with this as an absolute rule is that KO power could be affected and sometimes you DO need to move backwards

how would this be dealt with?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Nonsense. Both Jim Fung and Tsui Tseung Tin are out of balance as they are leaning into the person "pushing". The guy "pushing" has his arms extended, and can therefore not exert any significant pressure as he's not walking forward. A circus trick with absolutely zero value.

Simple statics: The narrower the base, the smaller is the "resisting moment" opposing the "overturning moment". This applies also to bodies in motion. What is needed is a stable/balanced stance that is highly mobile. The wider the stance the better - until it affects mobility.

D@mn you and your law of optimals!

[Yoshiyahu]

I get that. I was pointing out that it is based on alignment and adaptation to directional force more than "base," when someone connects to your bridge, but yes, when dealing with the overall stability of the body, the wider the base, the greater the stability. So we're pretty much in agreement on that.
The reason I mentioned that is because many people-especially in TCMA (who were incorrectly trained) feel that rooting is all about standing low,wide, and flat-footed.

So, could you address the triangle footwork? Thanx.

What is the purpose of rooting? In your opinion?

Also why would you need to root on one foot? What would be the purpose?

[Pacman]

What is "rooting" and why do so many highly effective systems of combat never bother to address it specifically?
The two systems you mentioned, boxing and MT, develop excellent power in their strikes and never is one coached about "rooting".

you know the answer to this--we discussed the differences in another post

its not to say that you cannot generate any power without it, but it only makes sense that having a solid base allows you to deliver your power better

other styles may not focus on this, but anyone who throws a punch at a solid object knows he needs a solid base

the reason WC and other styles focus on this is because like other soft styles wing chun focuses on the use of shifting body mass for power generation and not as much on the muscles of the arms/torso

[goju]

rooting is alot more complicated than okay just relax and sink:D

often times you can generate more power when its mastered than you could with a style that doesnt focus on it

[Pacman]

In our WC we NEVER want our heels on the ground.

in our wing chun we also keep on our toes. we also rotate our whole body, rotation is driven by the legs, as we strike

[Frost]

rooting is alot more complicated than okay just relax and sink:D

often times you can generate more power when its mastered than you could with a style that doesnt focus on it


How do you know this have you mastered it?

if so how is it different from the power generated in arts such as boxing?

[Frost]

you know the answer to this--we discussed the differences in another post

its not to say that you cannot generate any power without it, but it only makes sense that having a solid base allows you to deliver your power better

other styles may not focus on this, but anyone who throws a punch at a solid object knows he needs a solid base

the reason WC and other styles focus on this is because like other soft styles wing chun focuses on the use of shifting body mass for power generation and not as much on the muscles of the arms/torso

do you actually really believe boxing generates its power from muscles and not shifting its body weight.....:(

[LSWCTN1]

do you actually really believe boxing generates its power from muscles and not shifting its body weight.....:(

you know what? sometimes a student will take his opinion of something from his sifu, and his sifu may have valid reasons for his own beliefs. but, IMHHHHO, i think that every sifu should offer his experience and beliefs - but not enforce them

i honestly think that this is akin to an instructor teaching only the parts of the art that he likes or those that work for him. if that happens then you are missing something, and i dont think its good. you can be shown the 'best' way, but you must also be shown the other ways too.

[Frost]

you know what? sometimes a student will take his opinion of something from his sifu, and his sifu may have valid reasons for his own beliefs. but, IMHHHHO, i think that every sifu should offer his experience and beliefs - but not enforce them

i honestly think that this is akin to an instructor teaching only the parts of the art that he likes or those that work for him. if that happens then you are missing something, and i dont think its good. you can be shown the 'best' way, but you must also be shown the other ways too.

You can't blame the instructor it is down to the student not to blindly follow him but to intelligently question everything he is told.

If this does not happen you end up with stupid beliefs like…. oh i don't know…... boxers not using bodyweight in shots….. wrestler being easy to knock out as they bend over tand run in to take you down….. with correct stance training you will never be taken down....my system is the only system that uses correct structure and root......it goes on and on.....:(

[bennyvt]

in the wsl method we keep the weight evenly over the feet. Too much on the toes and you fall forward, too much on the heels and you can be pushed back. We keep the heel on the ground as the weight that is created by any impact will be transfered into the heel. The tst demo is normally done with toni bartikos he is the massive guy with the black hair. The idea is to show how the weight is transfered into the back leg if the waist is forward. This is an extreme example with the front leg not being used. While it is a trick it shows the idea. And it seems that every now and then we get people that don't seen to want to ask questions but to show how much they know. I put this down to two things. 1. You are starting a school or doing videos so this is the way you advertise. 2. You simply want people to know you are not a child or person with no credibility and dont want to start a debate with a question through insecurity of how others will think. Point is when threads start with the 'this is what is right and no one else knows what i know' people tend to dismiss it. Hence why i hadn't even bothered to read the thread until people had posted for a while...

[Buddha_Fist]

... The tst demo is normally done with toni bartikos he is the massive guy with the black hair. The idea is to show how the weight is transfered into the back leg if the waist is forward. This is an extreme example with the front leg not being used. While it is a trick it shows the idea...


The body's weight is obviously on the one supporting leg when you lift the other off the ground - there's no option... unless you levitate.

It's a pretty bad demo if it's meant to show the idea of weight redistribution. Plus the gimmick of having the pushing guy appear as he's exerting full force (even with help from another guy behind him) is a circus trick as the position he's adopting doesn't allow for much force generation. Any real force would throw TST on the ground ("overturning").

[Yoshiyahu]

Is there a video on youtube of some guy not able to be pushed while standing on one leg?

Can someone post it...

[Pacman]

do you actually really believe boxing generates its power from muscles and not shifting its body weight.....:(

it does...but less than others...but what im really talking about the overall focus. its like sanjuro and i talked about in another thread the difference between external and internal arts many times is not because one trains or possesses qualities not existing in the other--its the focus

if you have never trained in both or seen both i can see how its hard to udnerstand

[sanjuro_ronin]

it does...but less than others...but what im really talking about the overall focus. its like sanjuro and i talked about in another thread the difference between external and internal arts many times is not because one trains or possesses qualities not existing in the other--its the focus

if you have never trained in both or seen both i can see how its hard to udnerstand

Agreed, in this regard:
It is far easier to SEE rooting in Tai chi, bagua and Aikido, than in Boxing.
Simply because they focus on the specific quality to the ninth degree.
Boxing, wresrlting and judo all have "rooting" in a more dynamic way that is far harder to "see".
But its stiil there.
Like I mentioned before, rooting is very style specific.
The root of WC, for example, will not sever you in Judo or vice-versa.

On a side note, look at a top level boxer and you will see more relaxed striking and in a practical way, that many Taiji people would kill for.

[goju]

didnt you say you trained in tai chi frost and bak mei and dragons style as well?
you should have seen the difference when you saw jing power demonstrated as a result of rooting

it makes it hard to move you as well i dont know if its on youtube but i recall shi goulin demonstrating rooting power by having a group of people holding a tree and running full force and ramming him in the abdomen with it and they could barely move him back because of his root

[sanjuro_ronin]

didnt you say you trained in tai chi frost and bak mei and dragons style as well?
you should have seen the difference when you saw jing power demonstrated as a result of rooting

it makes it hard to move you as well i dont know if its on youtube but i recall shi goulin demonstrating rooting power by having a group of people holding a tree and running full force and ramming him in the abdomen with it and they could barely move him back because of his root

see this all the time in strongman competitions and demos, even the "fat guy" demos taking a cannon ball in the breadbasket.
Tons of it in aikido.

[Pacman]

see this all the time in strongman competitions and demos, even the "fat guy" demos taking a cannon ball in the breadbasket.
Tons of it in aikido.

fat guy cannon ball is because his fat absorbs the impact like a cushion

[bennyvt]

tyson looked pretty grounded when doing his famous uppercutt. My point was that the one leg thing is just a trick. When done properly it shows that when the waist is either inline or past the back foot the force pushes you over as its like just standing on the front leg. If the waist is infront of the foot then the force is pushed through your hands, waist then foot.

[Frost]

didnt you say you trained in tai chi frost and bak mei and dragons style as well?
you should have seen the difference when you saw jing power demonstrated as a result of rooting

it makes it hard to move you as well i dont know if its on youtube but i recall shi goulin demonstrating rooting power by having a group of people holding a tree and running full force and ramming him in the abdomen with it and they could barely move him back because of his root



Yes I did, I have done rooting so being pushed over is hard, I have done short range power and am able to break wood with short range or no range strikes, I have seen it and done it in demo’s, and that’s it, i never seen it in a fight, now I have met little judo guys that feel like a brick house when you try to move them in actual competitions, that’s root

I have seen boxers KO guys from inches away with short power strikes, that’s jing.

As sanuro ronin said you see these demo’s in strong man comps, circus shows etc, they are demo’s and tricks nothing more

[sanjuro_ronin]

fat guy cannon ball is because his fat absorbs the impact like a cushion

Missing the point eh?
They are still rooted or are you gonna tell me that they just stand there, on their tippy toes and take a cannon ball and don't budge?

[IRONMONK]

How different is rooting from when a boxer plants his feet(sit down on punches) to get power?

[Pacman]

Missing the point eh?
They are still rooted or are you gonna tell me that they just stand there, on their tippy toes and take a cannon ball and don't budge?

im saying that the cannon ball demo is about how the guys stomach is so fat it absorbs the blow. it is not a demonstration of how "rooted" he is

that is why you dont see that demo with a skinny guy

can you explain what you mean when you say boxing, wrestling etc etc have rooting in a more dynamic way? do you think WC is not dynamic because of some of the vids on youtube of WC practitioners standing around like a potted plant in a pigeon toed stance during a fight? that is not wc. that is an example of their teachers not understanding the difference between training and real application

[dirtyrat]

im saying that the cannon ball demo is about how the guys stomach is so fat it absorbs the blow. it is not a demonstration of how "rooted" he is

that is why you dont see that demo with a skinny guy



Certainly having a big gut helps to absorb the blow (an advantage over the skinny guys), but that alone is not enough to diffuse the cannon ball. The force has to be dissipated into the ground otherwise you would see him being pushed back. That's proof of his "rooting".

[dirtyrat]

can you explain what you mean when you say boxing, wrestling etc etc have rooting in a more dynamic way?

Its plain to see that in boxing/wrestling the feet is more active. Compare to other kung fu styles, WC's footwork seems lacking. But if the story about WC being develop on the red junks is true, then that's the reason why. There's narrow passages on those junks to take into account and course the swaying on open water.

[Pacman]

Its plain to see that in boxing/wrestling the feet is more active. Compare to other kung fu styles, WC's footwork seems lacking. But if the story about WC being develop on the red junks is true, then that's the reason why. There's narrow passages on those junks to take into account and course the swaying on open water.

footwork is really dependent on the teacher. its goes the same for boxing too. some people have more footwork than others.

with WC there is no rule prohibiting or encouraging the footwork that you can do. that is a personal style that is influenced by your teacher

i know that in youtube you see people like emin boztepe being immobile in a pigeon toed stance or you see this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4Jq6H9pEQ

thats just their personal style or maybe how his lineage does things. it does not speak for all WC practitioners or teachers

[sanjuro_ronin]

can you explain what you mean when you say boxing, wrestling etc etc have rooting in a more dynamic way? do you think WC is not dynamic because of some of the vids on youtube of WC practitioners standing around like a potted plant in a pigeon toed stance during a fight? that is not wc. that is an example of their teachers not understanding the difference between training and real application

When was the last rime you saw a boxing coach or a wrestling coach teach "rooting"? or have the trainee in a "stance" ?
The rooting that is taught is always taught in a dynamic way, ie: In Action.

[Pacman]

i see. i thought you were talking about the application and not the training

fyi, learning the stance statically is just the first stage. next stages are more 'dynamic'

[sanjuro_ronin]

i see. i thought you were talking about the application and not the training

fyi, learning the stance statically is just the first stage. next stages are more 'dynamic'

Why bother learning it "statically" ?

[Pacman]

Why bother learning it "statically" ?

i really cant speak for all WC schools. not everyone teaches things the same.

i really also disagree with the premise of 'rooting' in wrestling. i wrestled for four years in high school and the internal style concept of 'rooting' is no where to be found in wrestling.

i am no pro boxer, but i did box for almost a year before starting WC and the rooting concept was no where to be found either. 'root' is not as simple as planting your foot before throwing a punch

[dirtyrat]

i really cant speak for all WC schools. not everyone teaches things the same.

i really also disagree with the premise of 'rooting' in wrestling. i wrestled for four years in high school and the internal style concept of 'rooting' is no where to be found in wrestling.

i am no pro boxer, but i did box for almost a year before starting WC and the rooting concept was no where to be found either. 'root' is not as simple as planting your foot before throwing a punch

could you please describe the internal style concept of rooting?

I myself once ran into a taijiquan instructor who could do the things you read about. For example, he once had a number of people form up in a line and push at him together. its looks impressive, but if you know the trick, which is to deal with the guy in front of the line, than like any "magic" trick it loses its novelty.

[k gledhill]

lot of tricks in martial arts...
breaking a certain brick in a pile...using Qi :D ? no simply placing a small object under the brick [ marble, washer..] so when you hit it the brick, immediately below it takes the breaking force.

breaking chopsticks held straight into neck ...Qi :D ? no thumb placed under sticks holding to neck, as the other hand slams them [not really] into the neck the thumb of the support hand lifts up and woila !

cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi :( ....the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.

etc... but it its all fun for the onlookers

oh yeah the "break a slab 'o' concrete on my Qi belly" trick...Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.

just a few...

[sanjuro_ronin]

i really cant speak for all WC schools. not everyone teaches things the same.

i really also disagree with the premise of 'rooting' in wrestling. i wrestled for four years in high school and the internal style concept of 'rooting' is no where to be found in wrestling.

i am no pro boxer, but i did box for almost a year before starting WC and the rooting concept was no where to be found either. 'root' is not as simple as planting your foot before throwing a punch

And yet, even without a "rooting" concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.

[chusauli]

lot of tricks in martial arts...
breaking a certain brick in a pile...using Qi :D ? no simply placing a small object under the brick [ marble, washer..] so when you hit it the brick, immediately below it takes the breaking force.

breaking chopsticks held straight into neck ...Qi :D ? no thumb placed under sticks holding to neck, as the other hand slams them [not really] into the neck the thumb of the support hand lifts up and woila !

cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi :( ....the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.

etc... but it its all fun for the onlookers

oh yeah the "break a slab 'o' concrete on my Qi belly" trick...Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.

just a few...

Kevin, you are releasing the true secrets to the public! YOu are now banned from the Magician Society!

LOL!

[chusauli]

And yet, even without a "rooting" concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.

That's all about alignment.

During my trip to Finland this weekend, I saw some Muay Thai and MMA matches - all were great! I saw all the athletes just posting and balance and get their root or regain it.

Sometimes the semantics confuse people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's all about alignment.

During my trip to Finland this weekend, I saw some Muay Thai and MMA matches - all were great! I saw all the athletes just posting and balance and get their root or regain it.

Sometimes the semantics confuse people.

Not sure what you mean Robert, are you saying rooting is just alignment?

[chusauli]

Not sure what you mean Robert, are you saying rooting is just alignment?

They're not exactly the same, but a large component of rooting is alignment. When force is being acted upon you, you relax/tighten certain muscles to facilitate your rooting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They're not exactly the same, but a large component of rooting is alignment. When force is being acted upon you, you relax/tighten certain muscles to facilitate your rooting.

Ah, understood, I wasn't sure when you mentioned "confused by semantics".

[TenTigers]

cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi :( ....the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.

etc... but it its all fun for the onlookers

oh yeah the "break a slab 'o' concrete on my Qi belly" trick...Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.

just a few...


I don't think you can stand on half an apple.:p

ok, really, the sword cuts on the draw, which is why chefs can slice banannas and hit theor thumb with the knive and not get cut.

the breaking the slab of concrete on the belly is simple-the cement is hard and brittle, the belly is soft and yields, absorbing the impact and dissapating it. anyone whos worked with a stone mason knows how to break bricks by holding them in yuor hand and striking them with a hammer.

[goju]

what about when they break the stone over the belly then start hitting the stomach dead on with the sledge hammer?:D

[IRONMONK]

How is it possible to "root" when in motion?

[Pacman]

And yet, even without a "rooting" concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.

yes maybe they do well for their specific task but their tasks are different than wing chun tasks.

the way they punch and throw their weight into it is different than the way we do it--at least compared to YKS style. in boxing the twisting motion as you throw a punch propelled mainly by the waist muscles. this is why they exercise and train the obliques a lot. you throw your weight into a punch by leaning into it and twisting your waist

in YKS WC the rotation is driven by the legs...legs pushing off the ground which is why you need to root, i.e. direct force from the ground. you throw your weight in it not by leaning in but by rotating as much of your body mass as possible, focusing on the hips. this is why in certain styles of KF training and strengthening of the legs is the main focus (why in the old days they trained horse stance for so long)

this is why in tai chi etc you hear a lot about "total body coordination". this is the reason their beginning training involves extremely slow movement; they are training themselves to be able to coordinate/align their bodies perfectly.

again, i have to say this because i know someone will completely misinterpret me:
i am not saying that only certain styles of KF utitlize leg strength or body coordination etc. i am clarifying the differences in technique and training methods/philosophies.

[CFT]

the way they punch and throw their weight into it is different than the way we do it--at least compared to YKS style. in boxing the twisting motion as you throw a punch propelled mainly by the waist muscles. this is why they exercise and train the obliques a lot. you throw your weight into a punch by leaning into it and twisting your waist

in YKS WC the rotation is driven by the legs...legs pushing off the ground which is why you need to root, i.e. direct force from the ground. you throw your weight in it not by leaning in but by rotating as much of your body mass as possible, focusing on the hips. this is why in certain styles of KF training and strengthening of the legs is the main focus (why in the old days they trained horse stance for so long)To say that Western boxing doesn't use the legs when punching is plain silly. If you stand on the ground when you punch you'll be using the legs. You think in all its history, boxing has missed this "trick"?

[bennyvt]

tyson drove through his legs when doing an uppercut. Did you say the power comes from rotation. How is rotation associated with rooting. I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.

[k gledhill]

what about when they break the stone over the belly then start hitting the stomach dead on with the sledge hammer?:D

no follow through...stop and tap , you can make it look powerful then stop short of crushing the spine :D

I knew a group who taught their students to punch metal plates on the floor, drive the same black car...qi things, go to their country and pay to stay in qi retreat festivals, called Kateda in the UK...turned out to be a bunch of con men...duh !? :D you must drive a black car to class lmfao :D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

How is it possible to "root" when in motion?

How is it possible not to?
:D

[couch]

How is it possible not to?
:D

Love this! :D

(Answer: it's called gravity and seems to keep us attached to the ground rather than floating in air.)

[JPinAZ]

... I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.

Very good post!!

[Pacman]

To say that Western boxing doesn't use the legs when punching is plain silly. If you stand on the ground when you punch you'll be using the legs. You think in all its history, boxing has missed this "trick"?

yeah they are standing on the ground. no argument there. but is the focus to use the legs to shift all the body weight? do they focus on developing powerful legs or the upper body to develop a strong punch?

[Pacman]

tyson drove through his legs when doing an uppercut. Did you say the power comes from rotation. How is rotation associated with rooting. I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.

how is rotation associated with rooting? if punch by only extending your arm and you are rooted, then you are maximizing the energy from your arm because you structure is solid. you are reducing energy loss on impact because the recoil is directed to your legs and to the ground. but in the end the only "body in motion" is your arm. not much mass there.

however if you can move more than just your arm then your punch will have more mass behind it and more energy. its like throwing a jab while standing still vs throwing a jab while running at someone.

in our WC most our techniques involve rotation of the entire body to maximize the mass behind a strike. this rotation is driven by the legs.

if you do not have a good "root", you will not rotate and shift your mass effectively. in an extreme example, imagine trying to push off of the ground when it is covered in ice.