Importance of Body Structure

[ChinaBoxer]

Julius is a good friend of mine and what makes him great for this video is that he is not a Wing Chun guy, on the contrary, he is a “brawler” and a grappler, aggressive and very very athletic. I asked him to join us for the video because so many wing chun videos out there are just the opposite, where the instructor is the “big guy” and the person he demonstrates on is usually shorter/weaker than themselves. So it’s easy of course to “out muscle” and “out speed” them for the video.

I wanted to do just the opposite, i wanted someone who doesn’t care what his “movements” look like and has an attitude of “i’m going to knock your head off, any way i can”, because these are the kinds of fighters that you are going to get into an altercation with.

you can view the video...here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/09/importance-of-body-structure/)

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I'm about to say is not meant to be insulting, Chinaboxer, so please don't take this personally. But man, there's a whole lot of THEORY going on there - and basically NO twenty-first century reality fighting to back it up.

So you follow his jab back in with your good structure...okay...but what if he hooked off that jab as you came in with your "good structure" ???

You know what I think? It's goodnight at that point!

Oh yeah, a guy as big as Julius...It's goodnight.

[Sihing73]

What I'm about to say is not meant to be insulting, Chinaboxer, so please don't take this personally. But man, there's a whole lot of THEORY going on there - and basically NO twenty-first century reality fighting to back it up.

So you follow his jab back in with your good structure...okay...but what if he hooked off that jab as you came in with your "good structure" ???

You know what I think? It's goodnight at that point!

Oh yeah, a guy as big as Julius...It's goodnight.

You know this is not meant to be insulting either:

But maybe this is why some don't post videos, no matter what happens you are always going to have someone saying "What if".

This is, imho, a good presentation of using structure rather than strength to make your Wing Chun work. No it was not a sparring session but sometimes you need to crawl before you walk. Take the video for what it is a good explanation useful for understanding and training.

I have a friend who plays tennis. She is fairly competitive and practices a lot. You know what a lot of her practice consists of..............focusing on one technique and working that, it may be her serve or backhand or even hitting balls off the wall. While this is not the same as playing tennis itself guess what? It helps her improve her skills and enables her to better apply them in a game. Her coach will also have her return balls rather than always play someone else.

In the time I have known her she, or her team, have made it to the play offs several times, so they must be doing something right.

Let's keep things in perspective; training does not always involve sparring. Although I will agree that hard sparring is a piece of the pie. Also no matter what you do or how you train there is always a counter which can be applied whether it be a hook or something else. I would propose that it is impossible to be prepared for every possible counter, however it is possible to be prepared mentally to accept that one will get hit and maybe hurt and have the will to continue on anyhow.

Oh, one more observation size does not always equate power. While I would not want someone like Julius to hit me, shoot I don't want anyone, big or small, to hit me, to make the assumption that someone larger will always be the victor is not always true. Some people, even small ones, can take a great deal of punishment and keep on fighting. Remember the old saying; "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" or something to that effect.

Of course, bigger and skilled is a deadly combination. :eek:

[ChinaBoxer]

What I'm about to say is not meant to be insulting, Chinaboxer, so please don't take this personally. But man, there's a whole lot of THEORY going on there - and basically NO twenty-first century reality fighting to back it up.

So you follow his jab back in with your good structure...okay...but what if he hooked off that jab as you came in with your "good structure" ???

You know what I think? It's goodnight at that point!

Oh yeah, a guy as big as Julius...It's goodnight.of course, i don't take comments personally, so don't think that. you are absolutely right, once you have "closed the gap" then your "sensitivity" has to be air tight or else you will get knocked the F' out. but that's where all the "chi sau" practice comes into play. you have to keep practicing, just like Sihing73 who used the "tennis" analogy, practice makes perfect. i'll get into sparring in the near future.

oh..and isn't all martial arts styles and methods "theory"?

take care and peace!

Jin

[dirtyrat]

great vids, jin.

[Knifefighter]

Julius is a good friend of mine and what makes him great for this video is that he is not a Wing Chun guy, on the contrary, he is a “brawler” and a grappler, aggressive and very very athletic. I asked him to join us for the video because so many wing chun videos out there are just the opposite, where the instructor is the “big guy” and the person he demonstrates on is usually shorter/weaker than themselves. So it’s easy of course to “out muscle” and “out speed” them for the video.

I wanted to do just the opposite, i wanted someone who doesn’t care what his “movements” look like and has an attitude of “i’m going to knock your head off, any way i can”, because these are the kinds of fighters that you are going to get into an altercation with.

you can view the video...here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/09/importance-of-body-structure/)

The fact that you are not actually going against him in a realistic manner makes his size a moot point. Anyone can demo on a bigger guy. Show the techs against him when he is going hard and fully resisting and they will carry much more weight.

The fact is you are citing other videos out there as doing something wrong and then, essentially do the same thing yourself.

Your videos are no different than the other 99.9% of WC videos out there... all theory and no actual application.

MMA, grappling, boxing, and MT instructional videos usually include footage of the instructor or his students actually using the techniques in competitions or full contact sparring. This is what gives what is being taught on them them credence. You can see them being used for real.

[Knifefighter]

This is, imho, a good presentation of using structure rather than strength to make your Wing Chun work. No it was not a sparring session but sometimes you need to crawl before you walk. Take the video for what it is a good explanation useful for understanding and training.
Good instructionals show the actual application of what is being taught.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Chinaboxer...enjoyed your vid, the explanation and details of the techniques were very well done. I like the unconventional thinking with closing the gap against a more powerful man vs doing the rope-a-dope. Violence of action and catching the bigger man off guard can potentially have great results. Kind of like its not the size of the dog in the fight but....

Too often the psychology of the fight is overlooked, being a bigger man myself, I know the psychological effect of size and power (for both me and the opponent) and I typically expect my opponents to be wary or respectful of it, I must admit having a smaller opponent take the fight to me would give me great pause.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I consider myself a neutral party. ChinaBoxer says a few things that I think are flat out wrong along with making several points that I think are super important.

I looked at this video to be critical of it. However, it just looks like sound Wing Chun to me. One of the things that I expect so see out of Wing Chunners is to tie-up anyone with powerful or skillful hands to avoid taking serious damage. This is a tactic that you see in boxing, mma, and Muay thai. CB is just showing it in a WC context. To be honest, I would like to see Wing Chunners take a clue from these other arts and beef up their skill and knowledge in tie-ups and inside fighting.

Edit: My only problem with the video is that the topic is suppose to be body structure but to me the video is about a method of entering and not body structure per say. The video is about entering by following the jab with some reinforcement about the importance of maintaining structure.

Also, it you are going to use a bigger guy for the purpose of demonstrating effectiveness, then let him attack for real. It serves very little point otherwise. Although, I have no problem in using a big guy if in the manner demonstrated just for dramatic effect.

[Sihing73]

Good instructionals show the actual application of what is being taught.

Hi Dale,

Yes and No depending on the focus.

Have you ever attended a class to learn something new? How often did they jump into the actual subject without building things up first?

Consider an art class; you learn the basic strokes and practice them over and over before you move on to more advanced things. There are instructionals out there showing just the basics. Are the more basic instructionals of any less value because they contain and focus on the basics? Perhaps one reason why so many videos have progressive steps each one showing more and building on the last.

Now if you are trying to show application in a real life type of situation then yes there should be some resistence being given. However if you are instructing in a facet of something then it may not really be needed.

The simple fact is that no matter what one opts to show someone will always find fault.

So did you see anything wrong with the explanations or the concepts being addressed? If so, would you care to explain to the rest of us how the video was lacking in it's explanation from a Wing Chun perspective?

Please not the "lack of a resiting opponent" mantra which you always provide, but an actual break down of what is incorrect in the video as it relates to the concepts and principles taught in Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Examples of good critiques:

“Anyone can demo on a bigger guy. Show the techs against him when he is going hard and fully resisting and they will carry much more weight…Your videos are no different than the other 99.9% of WC videos out there - all theory and no actual application…Good instructionals show the actual application of what is being taught” (KF)


"If you are going to use a bigger guy for the purpose of demonstrating effectiveness, then let him attack for real. It serves very little point otherwise.” (HumbleWCguy)

IN OTHER WORDS....

Demonstrating solid wing chun structure is good. Demonstrating it in a manner that would leave you open to a knockout blow from a good boxer who hooked off his lead jab as you came in with your "good body structure" is not good.

If the actual application within the scenario you have chosen to use wouldn't work, then of course you will be negatively critiqued - regardless of how good the "structure" actually was all on its own and by itself.

And quite frankly, that point is made much more obvious and crucial if you choose to use a big guy to demo with, as opposed to a much smaller guy. Eating a big left hook coming from a guy Julius's size could be devastating.

Why is this important to point out? Well for one thing, ChinaBoxer made a very big point of saying that someone Julius' size can be really difficult and dangerous to deal with - so you need, amoungst other things, good body structure. True.

And all the more reason why using a scenario in the demo that could get you really hurt against someone this size becomes very ironic.

And once again, ChinaBoxer, this is meant as constructive criticism, and not as insult.

[Knifefighter]

Hi Dale,

Yes and No depending on the focus.

Have you ever attended a class to learn something new? How often did they jump into the actual subject without building things up first?

Consider an art class; you learn the basic strokes and practice them over and over before you move on to more advanced things. There are instructionals out there showing just the basics. Are the more basic instructionals of any less value because they contain and focus on the basics? Perhaps one reason why so many videos have progressive steps each one showing more and building on the last.

Now if you are trying to show application in a real life type of situation then yes there should be some resistence being given. However if you are instructing in a facet of something then it may not really be needed.

The simple fact is that no matter what one opts to show someone will always find fault.

So did you see anything wrong with the explanations or the concepts being addressed? If so, would you care to explain to the rest of us how the video was lacking in it's explanation from a Wing Chun perspective?

Please not the "lack of a resiting opponent" mantra which you always provide, but an actual break down of what is incorrect in the video as it relates to the concepts and principles taught in Wing Chun.
The original assertion was that he was using a bigger guy an with attitude of “i’m going to knock your head off, any way i can". This was not the case and he was simply a complying partner, pretty much negating the original stated intent.

My critique would be pretty much the same as Victor stated.

As far as the resisting opponent, if you never have a resisting opponent, you have no way of knowing whether your techniques work or not.

[Knifefighter]

MMA, grappling, boxing, and MT instructional videos often include footage of the instructor or his students actually using the techniques in competitions or full contact sparring. This is what gives what is being taught on them them credence. You can see them being used for real.

I will modify that because there are several BJJ instructionals out there that do pretty much the same thing. They show techniques that are questionable and you never once see the instructor or any of his students (or anyone else in the competition arena) actually pulling off the techniques for real the way that is advocated on the videos they are demonstrating.

[HumbleWCGuy]

the notion that some real-time sparring needs to be shown to make this video correct or incorrect is ridiculous. A sparring demonstration has no effect on the correctness or incorrectness of the video or the techniques demonstrated.

Moreover, when I watch a video, I could not care less whether or not someone in the video can do a technique or not, it all comes down to my ability to functionalize a technique. You give me someone with enough attributes, I can put together a video of them demonstrating all kinds of techniques in real time that probably have marginal effectiveness in anyone else's hands.

[Sihing73]

Hello Victor,

While I can agree with most of what you had said I would like to propose the following:

I challenge you or Dale to provide an example of ANY technique which does not leave your open to some type of counter. Simply put I feel that no matter what you do there is always a way to counter. With this in mind if you are demonstrating one thing and using that to emphasize your point then you would be focused on that precept and not consider every single possible counter.

The dummy is an excellent example of this type of training, focus or mindset. When you apply a technique you often ignore the arms not involved in that technique as they are not party and not relevant at that time.

As I have said previously, take the video for what it was/is. At least the explanations were clear and the concepts valid, IMHO.

[sihing]

Good vid Jin:) You have your work cut out for you here Jin, when you post vids, most everyone is critical, without the personal experience with what you are discussing in the vid to really make a judgement of what is good or bad. By personal experience I mean people coming down to train with you. Lots of Monday morning quaterbacks here per say.

What I got from Jin's vid:
1) Don't give tension to a bigger guy, these leads to a competition of muscles and strength, and since you are the smaller guy you will lose here.

2) Maintain a good structure at all times. Structure is the foundation of everything we do, without it nothing else will work and your ability to use the tools WC provides are useless. When you use structure it can make you stronger than you are or look, because everything is working together, instead of using a particular muscle or group of muscles. Every system of Martial Arts has a structure, every movement known to man is made up of some sort of structure to facilitate what one wants to do physically.

3) Listening or senstivity is important upon contact, and WC training methods give us an edge in that department. So many in WC, thinking of simultaneous attacks/defense all the time, without listening to what your opponent is doing. When you are trying to simul att/def, you are using speed, your timing speed and moving speed will have to be faster than your opponents for this principle to work. Not high % in my book. First rule is to not get hit, hands come up and forward, sometime you can hit thru his attack, sometimes not, your hands coming up is a striking/deflecting action cause you don't really know what he is doing, but you are chasing his centerline and if there is contact you listen for less than a second without tension to give away, your reflexes take over from here. If it is a round attack, center is clear for you to hit, or cover up.

4) A good drill, where one is learning to deal with the first strike, the jab which is the fastest strike with the hands, then learning to follow that strike in with connectedness, from there, you learn to control a bit the partners limbs, more realistic chi sau drill IMO. (last part of the vid)

IMO Jin is sharing concepts or ideas, not showing you how to deal with this or that attack. It's idea thinking, backed up by physical concepts put into action. Most every Martial Art vid I've seen has the same way to demonstrate things, and for every demonstration there are a thousand "what if's" that can come from it. If that is your thinking, then you are really a surface level thinker, because on this level of communication, all one can do is share ideas. The time for the "what if" thinking, is when you have one on one personal contact with that instructor or person demo'g, they show you the drill, you what if them, and then see what they do. Anyone with skill should be able to adapt, that is two fold as you have to adapt to what they are doing as well. On this forum all we can do is share idea's and experiences, each is filtered through our own understand, intent and interest concerning Martial Arts.

James

[ChinaBoxer]

Hey James, thanks for the wonderful post, yea, you got it exactly right, what i was trying to convey in the video! :)

I know that when i post videos, some will get it, some won't, some will get it maybe later on. and everyone is entitled to their views even though it sometimes doesn't coincide with my own. IMO a good martial artist is one who is trained to "respond" and not "react".

i always say, "if it works for you, then keep doing it!" because who am i to say that someone is right or wrong? when i post videos i am only sharing with everyone what works for me, at this moment, and who knows, maybe in the future, it will change again. that's the great part of martial arts training for me anyways, that as I grow and change, so does the martial art.

I think that people forget that wing chun is not a technique based art but rather a concept based art.

thanks for everyone's support, take care and peace!

Jin

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've posted a number of videos on youtube, and some of the critiques that people have posted have been scathing. Hey, you know what? It comes with the turf! Don't lose any sleep over over it, ChinaBoxer. I know I haven't...:cool: ;)

In fact, other than Sihing73, I don't think anybody is! :eek::p

[sihing]

Hey James, thanks for the wonderful post, yea, you got it exactly right, what i was trying to convey in the video! :)

I know that when i post videos, some will get it, some won't, some will get it maybe later on. and everyone is entitled to their views even though it sometimes doesn't coincide with my own. IMO a good martial artist is one who is trained to "respond" and not "react".

i always say, "if it works for you, then keep doing it!" because who am i to say that someone is right or wrong? when i post videos i am only sharing with everyone what works for me, at this moment, and who knows, maybe in the future, it will change again. that's the great part of martial arts training for me anyways, that as I grow and change, so does the martial art.

I think that people forget that wing chun is not a technique based art but rather a concept based art.

thanks for everyone's support, take care and peace!

Jin

Well it's nice when one makes the effort to share information, especially when it is for the sake of sharing and not for the sake of trying to change people's minds. Jin, I think you are just sharing to share, which is rare in this world.

I use to think WC was technique based, then I learned another way. This idea is hard to explain on the forum, but for those that like to travel and experience person to person, it can definelty change one's perspective. The problem is, concept based approaches are not always the easiest to teach other's. I've learned that WC is not the easiest of Martial Arts to learn, but nothing of quality is.

James

[ChinaBoxer]

Well it's nice when one makes the effort to share information, especially when it is for the sake of sharing and not for the sake of trying to change people's minds. Jin, I think you are just sharing to share, which is rare in this world.

I use to think WC was technique based, then I learned another way. This idea is hard to explain on the forum, but for those that like to travel and experience person to person, it can definelty change one's perspective. The problem is, concept based approaches are not always the easiest to teach other's. I've learned that WC is not the easiest of Martial Arts to learn, but nothing of quality is.

Jamesnice! i tell my students that "simple does not mean easy, relax does not mean lazy."

hmm..now you got me thinking..hahaha...maybe i will make a video on my thoughts on this subject and put it on my "philosophy" section of my website. fun! :)

[ChinaBoxer]

I've posted a number of videos on youtube, and some of the critiques that people have posted have been scathing. Hey, you know what? It comes with the turf! Don't lose any sleep over over it, ChinaBoxer. I know I haven't...:cool: ;)

In fact, other than Sihing73, I don't think anybody is! :eek::plol..true true

[HumbleWCGuy]

You have your work cut out for you here Jin, when you post vids, most everyone is critical, without the personal experience with what you are discussing in the vid to really make a judgement of what is good or bad. By personal experience I mean people coming down to train with you. Lots of Monday morning quaterbacks here per say.


If someone is making videos and posting them, it is to communicate ideas to a wider audience. Therefore, I would argue it is even more important to consider the opinions of those who are uninitiated to CB's curriculum, because at the very least it demonstrates a communication gap that needs bridged, correct?

EDIT:
I think that some of these comments have gone way too far. But I also think that CB should consider how he might want to present the material to capture that audience of the uninitiated, if that is a goal.

[Vajramusti]

Keep up your development of wing chun and your good adjustments to comments.
Structure and adjusting distance etc with proper timing is not a bad way to go.
Some others do it too in their own way.
Accentuating the positive in what you do is better than generalized criticism of others is also a good way to go.

good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[TenTigers]

I enjoyed the video, as it hit home on a few things for me.
In my SPM training, when my teacher pressures me during an exchange, is when my structure breaks down. Once that happens, you lose your root, rise up out of your horse, breathe from the chest, elbows come out of alignment, and the shoulders rise.
Structure is everything. It not only aligns you physically/mechanically, but it "grounds" you mentally. When I maintain my structure, I maintain my mindset. When I maintain my mindset, I maintain my structure.

As far as using the bigger guy-My teacher who is 5'10' (maybe less) blasted a guy much larger than himself off his feet-just by bridging him.
And no, I am not talking about those silly "fa-jing" demos. He crashed him. His structure was wired tight, but the other guy did not have the same awareness of structure.

Your style and method of presentation is very good. Relaxed, yet clear, concise, genuine and professional.

[Knifefighter]

My problem with this video is that if you are really going against a someone with that much size discrepancy who also has some experience in grappling, it's going to be nothing like what was shown on the clip. First of all, you won't be able to push the guy around like that. Secondly, the arm control will not happen the way it was shown. The "brawler, grappler" never once worked for underhooks, overwraps, head control, or over/unders, which is what would really be happening. From a technical standpoint, I see that clip as not being representative of what will happen in the situation that was protrayed.

Jin, in your bio, you make reference to having trained at BHJJC. How long did you train there and how long did you train with Bryce?

[ChinaBoxer]

My problem with this video is that if you are really going against a someone with that much size discrepancy who also has some experience in grappling, it's going to be nothing like what was shown on the clip. First of all, you won't be able to push the guy around like that. Secondly, the arm control will not happen the way it was shown. The "brawler, grappler" never once worked for underhooks, overwraps, head control, or over/unders, which is what would really be happening. From a technical standpoint, I see that clip as not being representative of what will happen in the situation that was protrayed.

Jin, in your bio, you make reference to having trained at BHJJC. How long did you train there and how long did you train with Bryce?
i trained at BHJJC for about two years, but due to cost and the economy, i just couldn't afford to keep going there, since then i have continued my NOGI training with Lars Wallin. But once the economy picks back up, i will continue my GI training back at BHJJC, i miss those guys! :(

Jin

[Knifefighter]

i trained at BHJJC for about two years, but due to cost and the economy, i just couldn't afford to keep going there, since then i have continued my NOGI training with Lars Wallin. But once the economy picks back up, i will continue my GI training back at BHJJC, i miss those guys! :(

Jin

If you have a grappling background and understand grappling dynamics, why are you not showing the type of control the grappler will attempt to use once he is in clinching range with you?

[ChinaBoxer]

If you have a grappling background and understand grappling dynamics, why are you not showing the type of control the grappler will attempt to use once he is in clinching range with you?Rome was not built in a day. I can't show every single counter to every single situation in a ten minute video. I let Julius do whatever he wanted, if he would have come in to grapple, then i would have adjusted. If he had just tried to take me down, then someone else would complain that Julius didn't try to box me, or they would say, how come Julius didn't kick you? this kind of thinking is just silly.

You should also go and view all my grappling/anti grappling videos on my website, you can find them by clicking the "categories" tab.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Rome was not built in a day. I can't show every single counter to every single situation in a ten minute video. I let Julius do whatever he wanted, if he would have come in to grapple, then i would have adjusted. If he had just tried to take me down, then someone else would complain that Julius didn't try to box me, or they would say, how come Julius didn't kick you? this kind of thinking is just silly.

You should also go and view all my grappling/anti grappling videos on my website, you can find them by clicking the "categories" tab.

Knifefighter definitely won't like your anti-grappling because a valid criticism of the video is that it appears to be a one size fits all approach that focuses on the tackle, double leg, or pick ups. There is no mention of a different strategy for judo style throws and reaps.

[Knifefighter]

Rome was not built in a day. I can't show every single counter to every single situation in a ten minute video. I let Julius do whatever he wanted, if he would have come in to grapple, then i would have adjusted. If he had just tried to take me down, then someone else would complain that Julius didn't try to box me, or they would say, how come Julius didn't kick you? this kind of thinking is just silly.

What is silly is explaining how you are defending against someone who has a grappling background and then not having him do any of the things that a grappler would do. Either he doesn't have grappling experience or he is just letting you do whatever you want without doing what his training would lead him to do. Anytime a grappler gets into close range with you (assuming he's not working a takedown), he's going to be tying you up, something that never happened, which makes your clip pretty unrealistic in terms of what you explained it was supposed to be.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter definitely won't like your anti-grappling because a valid criticism of the video is that it appears to be a one size fits all approach that focuses on the tackle, double leg, or pick ups. There is no mention of a different strategy for judo style throws and reaps.

LOL... that's for sure, not because of the one size fits all, but because the whole "hips forward" approach. This is exactly the opposite of what one should do to prevent being taken down. Anyone who has ever grappled would have a problem with that approach.

Watch any competitive wrestling match and it will take you about 3 seconds to figure that out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cV9c7Bi3TQ

http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234706-2009-empire-collegiate-wrestling-conference-championships/154356-197-chris-carabello-ithaca-inj-def-tom-voorhis-brockport

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JojAYM4rbmg

Same with judo or Sambo or any activity where one person wants to take the other one down:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5soy6_shinya-aoki-judo-competition_sport

http://fliiby.com/file/124930/2a0fuxgf5q.html

Notice where the hips are... not close, but away, in all of these.


Jin, how many sessions did you do with Bryce, and did he EVER tell you to keep your hips forward when engaging someone who is trying to take you down and you are defending?

[ChinaBoxer]

not sure what you're point is, but every grappler knows that when someone "shoots" in on you, you "sprawl" which is hips forward.

[Knifefighter]

not sure what you're point is, but every grappler knows that when someone "shoots" in on you, you "sprawl" which is hips forward.

My point is the hips are not forward when you are standing, they are back. Did you see ANY of the competitors with their hips forward?

When you sprawl the hips go back and out. You do not weight onto the hips until the opponent in underneath. Notice the hip movement on these sprawls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j8F4bi5QQ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKI1nBkNE6A

Here's a kid who keeps his hips forward. You can see what happens when you do that:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=526018

Every grappler? Which grappling competitions have you been in?

Again, I have to ask, how many sessions did you do with Bryce?

[ChinaBoxer]

My point is the hips are not forward when you are standing, they are back. Did you see ANY of the competitors with their hips forward?

ahh..okay, i see what you're saying now, you mean before the "shoot".

pure wrestlers, grapplers, etc..during competition don't have to worry about knees or strikes or kicks. they can of course duck and bend the hip to get a low center of gravity. but add strikes to the equation and you can't do that. do you see "MMA" fighters stand like that?

watch this fight between Machida and Evans...and i want you to pay attention to the front hip, Machida fights with his hip forward and head back, while Evans fights with his hip bent and head forward...oh..btw, Evans has a huge wrestling background.

also notice how even when Machida punches, he never sacrafices that forward hip structure.

and, just in case you think it's a fluke, don't forget that Machida is not only undefeated, but has never even lost a single round. and Anderson Silva, who is arguably the best fighter in the world, says that when they spar, Machida always gets the better of him.

video here (http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Rashad_Evans_UFC_98?vid=10005048 )

[Pacman]

i watched the video. i enjoy watching machida as he employs real skill in striking

btw, i noticed that joe rogan commented on the karate fighting philosophy of the single power punch to defeat an opponent. on the wing chung/boxing thread i commented on this philosophy vs the wing chun philosophy of continuous hits and was told by someone that i didnt know what i was talking about.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... that's for sure, not because of the one size fits all, but because the whole "hips forward" approach. This is exactly the opposite of what one should do to prevent being taken down. Anyone who has ever grappled would have a problem with that approach.


I was trying not to go there...

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the vid.


IMHO, your structure is a static one. what you do doesnt work in high speed contact. In fact it is a dangerous stuffs to think these type of structuring work.

IMHO, this is the type of structure which will be take down once the opponent is close in.


Excellent job keep training.

[sihing]

ahh..okay, i see what you're saying now, you mean before the "shoot".

pure wrestlers, grapplers, etc..during competition don't have to worry about knees or strikes or kicks. they can of course duck and bend the hip to get a low center of gravity. but add strikes to the equation and you can't do that. do you see "MMA" fighters stand like that?

watch this fight between Machida and Evans...and i want you to pay attention to the front hip, Machida fights with his hip forward and head back, while Evans fights with his hip bent and head forward...oh..btw, Evans has a huge wrestling background.

also notice how even when Machida punches, he never sacrafices that forward hip structure.

and, just in case you think it's a fluke, don't forget that Machida is not only undefeated, but has never even lost a single round. and Anderson Silva, who is arguably the best fighter in the world, says that when they spar, Machida always gets the better of him.

video here (http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Rashad_Evans_UFC_98?vid=10005048 )

I've noticed as well how Machida striking reminds me of WC mechanics. Everything Rogan is mentioning, non telegraphic strikes, being back in the stance (harder to reach the head area), quick movements, all remind me of what we are trying to achieve with our striking, thru our WC training. What is also true is that when one is competing that they need the rest of it to maximise their specific striking method, as Machida is also versed in wrestling and BJJ, he knows how to deal with the takedowns and what to do when on the ground. This is what one needs to do when competiting, but on this forum we are not talking about competiting but rather more street situation stuff, different environments IMO. In comps your looking for points and to KO your opponent, in the street your looking to survive, defend and run when the opportunity arises.

Pacman,

WC is not about continous striking, it has this ability, rather it is about getting the most out of each strike, using the whole body and ground/leg power to achieve this. Efficiency dictates that I use less to get more. Throwing 8 punches a second is meaningless if no power is behind it, and it certainly is not along the lines with the WC prinicples of being simple, direct and efficient.

James

[Pacman]

I've noticed as well how Machida striking reminds me of WC mechanics. Everything Rogan is mentioning, non telegraphic strikes, being back in the stance (harder to reach the head area), quick movements, all remind me of what we are trying to achieve with our striking, thru our WC training. What is also true is that when one is competing that they need the rest of it to maximise their specific striking method, as Machida is also versed in wrestling and BJJ, he knows how to deal with the takedowns and what to do when on the ground. This is what one needs to do when competiting, but on this forum we are not talking about competiting but rather more street situation stuff, different environments IMO. In comps your looking for points and to KO your opponent, in the street your looking to survive, defend and run when the opportunity arises.

Pacman,

WC is not about continous striking, it has this ability, rather it is about getting the most out of each strike, using the whole body and ground/leg power to achieve this. Efficiency dictates that I use less to get more. Throwing 8 punches a second is meaningless if no power is behind it, and it certainly is not along the lines with the WC prinicples of being simple, direct and efficient.

James

continuous movement does not mean that you are inaccurately or weakly or that you strike without creating openings and skill. it just means that the way we train in everything we do is about continuous motion.

of course not all WC schools teach or emphasize this. many WC schools practice like they are doing karate, but it is one of the fundamental philosophies in WC

[anerlich]

WC is not about continous striking, it has this ability, rather it is about getting the most out of each strike, using the whole body and ground/leg power to achieve this.

These two aims are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Lyoto Machida, who somehow seems to have ended up as a WC poster boy (?), is actually pretty good at both continuous movement and hitting hard. Scratch that, he is REALLY good at both and a lot more besides. His roundhouse kicks (that other great WC mainstay, ha ha) and evasion while counterpunching are awesome.

good MMA pugilism isn't necessarily about the grounded strikes, either. Grounding yourself to throw punches in MMA can expose you to leg takedowns. Some pretty good and experienced guys (including a National title holder in Oz) actually adopt a philosophy of leaning forward almost to the point of falling over as they throw punches so that they are always able to sprawl on a takedown attempt, and just run past out of range and turn if the guy sidesteps.

Dare I say, what Machida can do, isn't necessarily something that you or I can.

[HumbleWCGuy]

ahh..okay, i see what you're saying now, you mean before the "shoot".

pure wrestlers, grapplers, etc..during competition don't have to worry about knees or strikes or kicks. they can of course duck and bend the hip to get a low center of gravity. but add strikes to the equation and you can't do that. do you see "MMA" fighters stand like that?

watch this fight between Machida and Evans...and i want you to pay attention to the front hip, Machida fights with his hip forward and head back, while Evans fights with his hip bent and head forward...oh..btw, Evans has a huge wrestling background.

also notice how even when Machida punches, he never sacrafices that forward hip structure.

and, just in case you think it's a fluke, don't forget that Machida is not only undefeated, but has never even lost a single round. and Anderson Silva, who is arguably the best fighter in the world, says that when they spar, Machida always gets the better of him.

video here (http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Rashad_Evans_UFC_98?vid=10005048 )

I am sorry but in your anti-grappling video it is plain as day that you are saying that it is necessary to remain upright to defend the shoot. The shoot comes in and you are adamant that keeping the hip in is what stops the shoot. Don't change your story.

[ChinaBoxer]

I am sorry but in your anti-grappling video it is plain as day that you are saying that it is necessary to remain upright to defend the shoot. The shoot comes in and you are adamant that keeping the hip in is what stops the shoot. Don't change your story.gah, now you guys are confusing me, lol...you don't keep the hip in, you keep the hip out. i haven't changed anything, it's very difficult to stop pressure with your hip bent inwards. this is referred to as the "pelvic tilt" in wing chun and also maintaining the straight spine. have you seen my anti grappling video?

here is one i did awhile back...here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/06/anti-grappling-basic-drill/)

[Frost]

I've noticed as well how Machida striking reminds me of WC mechanics. Everything Rogan is mentioning, non telegraphic strikes, being back in the stance (harder to reach the head area), quick movements, all remind me of what we are trying to achieve with our striking, thru our WC training. What is also true is that when one is competing that they need the rest of it to maximise their specific striking method, as Machida is also versed in wrestling and BJJ, he knows how to deal with the takedowns and what to do when on the ground. This is what one needs to do when competiting, but on this forum we are not talking about competiting but rather more street situation stuff, different environments IMO. In comps your looking for points and to KO your opponent, in the street your looking to survive, defend and run when the opportunity arises.

James


So the only guy in MMA who can show proper wing chun striking is a guy that has never trained wing chun… umm ok may be there is a message there

So on the street you don’t need to survive against someone rushing you and holding and hitting you, or against someone trying to throw you to the ground and stomp the life out of you….. :confused:

[Frost]

These two aims are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Lyoto Machida, who somehow seems to have ended up as a WC poster boy (?), is actually pretty good at both continuous movement and hitting hard. Scratch that, he is REALLY good at both and a lot more besides. His roundhouse kicks (that other great WC mainstay, ha ha) and evasion while counterpunching are awesome.

good MMA pugilism isn't necessarily about the grounded strikes, either. Grounding yourself to throw punches in MMA can expose you to leg takedowns. Some pretty good and experienced guys (including a National title holder in Oz) actually adopt a philosophy of leaning forward almost to the point of falling over as they throw punches so that they are always able to sprawl on a takedown attempt, and just run past out of range and turn if the guy sidesteps.

Dare I say, what Machida can do, isn't necessarily something that you or I can.

This reminds me of when Vitor used to rush in and knock people unconscious in about 10 seconds and everyone claimed it a victory for BJJ lol... although at least Vitor had actually trained BJJ lol :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

gah, now you guys are confusing me, lol...you don't keep the hip in, you keep the hip out. i haven't changed anything, it's very difficult to stop pressure with your hip bent inwards. this is referred to as the "pelvic tilt" in wing chun and also maintaining the straight spine. have you seen my anti grappling video?

here is one i did awhile back...here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/06/anti-grappling-basic-drill/)


Yup, that's the video that I am referring to.


You say "hip forward" in your video. You can say it anyway you want but what what is being demonstrated in that video goes against conventional wisdom versus the shoot. Whether it is Judo, BJJ, Wrestling (Greco Roman, Mongolian, or Catch), Muay Thai, San Shu, Chin Na, Good Aikido, MMA, or what, the hip goes away from the opponent to defend the shoot and and a number of basic judo-style throws.

I am open-minded enough to not say that what you are doing in the video is dead wrong. I would have to see that method done against a legitimate grappler who would be an even match for a practioner of your anti-grappling in terms of weight, age, and experience before I would accept what you are doing in that video as legitimate alternative.


EDIT:
I have watched all of your videos on youtube twice within the last two months as someone asked me to evaluate them. I appreciate what you are doing overall, I was only skeptical of this video, and a few minor points concerning punching. Moreover, I hope that you keep doing videos. You are a breath of fresh air for sure. I know of at least a few other people who like that you are bringing a modern approach to WC and putting it on video. It is very admirable.

[k gledhill]

I would add that , using chi-sao in your VID as base for avoiding 'shoots' is not the right platform to begin with. Your playing the grappling game ...VT tries to avoid the position and the grapple.
We dont start tacticaly from this point [chi-sao], nor do we use 2 equally extended arms facing as the chi-sao drill, these are just mutual points for partners to give a starting point in a basic , systematic, progressive path ..the path doesnt end telling you to stay in front of a 240lb guy looking to take you down, by standing in front of him with hips forwards .
{btw a good solid palm shot to the head of anyone big or small will work wonders}

...we use the basic stance and chi-sao facing in this basic manner, for DRILLING from, ie We have an eqaul starting point to deliver strikes to counter from either side , randomly, so each can develop left?right equally...then the DRILL adds evasive motion/entry/counter striking ?attacking from angles that the partner has given by stepping from either side...we shift to this entry, we MOVE from the line of force direction...

Many adopt a facing 'forever' rolling , wrist'ing, feeling idea, that is dependent on feeling things..iow your making yourself function by feeling things first...so you become reliant on making contact with arms first, lop sao'ing, over trapping, chasing to control arms trying to gain a better position etc... Chi-sao is a stage in developing a simpler idea. It has a redundant factor that unless its explained, will have you doing turning kwan-sao to a guy charging you head on while you do your turn and kwan ...wrong idea :D

The use of chi-sao as your starting pint will get you defeated by a competent grappler, sure we can adapt but we should adapt by learning grappling , not trying to re-invent the drill to make it a ''magic bullet' for all things fighting....

Chi-sao is a specific drill to our goals...it starts with slt >single arms drills that become redundant immediately because we dont strike in 2 beats outside the drill..as the drill makes us in that stage...iow we progress to a single beat strike....we use the single beat [2 actions] strikes in closer proximity in chi-sao 2 handed drills...we develop both sides in unison...facing for alignment ...yada yada..:D with both arms extended to offer each other the training development of each arm equally . The we learn movement when a guy steps at us with force....bull fighting...we adopt role palying for each other , being both the bull and the fighter countering ....
But even a bull fight starts with a gap of space ...no idea what side to go to when to go, how far , etc...that was done in the 'empty ring' facing friends pretending to be the bull and then swapping out...even the best fighter get gored...so its no going to help % by standing in front of the bull with hips forwards ...

then in the stages of 'development' we add entry and angling to a specified side of attack...ie you step in with a left tan strike I counter angle etc...with my right or left arm in fighting ..but drilling I angle offside to you to avoid being in the middle of your 2 arms ...why ? simple % rules...

If I fight 50% of you for as much time as I can while attacking or making you turn physically so you cant 'face' me with 2 hands even better...to start the drill with this idea of angling & moving while striking a moving object coming at you, we have to have an equal starting point to er, ah, start from :D ...you have to get out of the 2 hand rolling feeling thinking idea....standing like a statue in front of an oncoming attack, with 2 extended arms, turning to face an incoming punch.




..As a btw , Machida moves a lot laterally, spoiling attempts to take downs with mobility and evasive actions...

[sanjuro_ronin]

As Knifefighter as mentioned, good instructionals blend instruction with demonstration, IF they can and IF its warranted.
There is no need to show the round kick in action when demoing it because everyone has seen it.
The Dog Bothers have a motto that I believe everyone doing instructionals should follow:
You see it taught, you see it fought.

On a side note, I know that KF doesn't like to toot his own horn that much, but I would suggest to anyone trying to argue to give advice to KF to remember that not only is his a 2nd degree BB in BJJ, but also an original dog brother and a nationally ranked submission grappler in the master class.

RE: demos.
Structure can be explained via a demo, indeed that is what demos are for, explanation.
To test or to correctly show structure one must do it VS a genuienly aggressive and resisting opponent.
Structure is task specific, indeed, it is system and even style specific.

[Knifefighter]

pure wrestlers, grapplers, etc..during competition don't have to worry about knees or strikes or kicks. they can of course duck and bend the hip to get a low center of gravity. but add strikes to the equation and you can't do that. do you see "MMA" fighters stand like that?
As I said in my original post, MMA fighters switch between stances.


watch this fight between Machida and Evans...and i want you to pay attention to the front hip, Machida fights with his hip forward and head back, while Evans fights with his hip bent and head forward...oh..btw, Evans has a huge wrestling background.
At the range outside of contact, you can do pretty much whatever you want, even bring your feet together. Watch Machida when he is inside contact range and is defending the takedown. His hips will move away. Hips are close when you are offensive and away when you are defensive.

You need to spend more time learning the grappling game before you try to instruct it and tell people that your approach is better than other instructors' approach. So far, you are getting all the principles mixed up. I'm guessing, based on our videos and, since you haven't answered anyone's questions regarding this, that you have limited or no competition background and relatively little standup grappling experience.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As I said in my original post, MMA fighters switch between stances.

.
I concur.
In MMA it is a trade off really. Hips in to avoid the knees or hips out to avoid the take down? When the clinch/plumb comes, MMA guys usually adopt a stance that is more bent over than you would see in a kickboxing match and not as bent over as you would see in a BJJ tournament to provide a balance or protection from throws and knees. Beyond that it is just reaction to the opponent's take downs and striking.

[ChinaBoxer]

ahh..okay, now i get what you guys are saying..lol..took me long enough, huh, yes, i know, i can be a bit slow sometimes:p

so you're saying that the hip should be flexible enough to go forward or backward depending on the circumstances. while i'm saying that hip forward should be maintained at all times.

that's a good discussion there, hmm...i understand your point. don't forget, that i have done six years of shooto with Yori Nakamura at the Inosanto Academy, six years of muay thai and another four years of BJJ and two years of wrestling and ten years of wing chun so of course i understand your point because that's how i did it for years and years. and i'm not saying you guys are wrong and i'm right, no no no, i've never said that, i'm only sharing with everyone what works for me now, at this time, in my life. heck, who knows maybe a few years down the road, i will resort to a different method.

martial arts, to me, is an investigation of what works for me, and not for any one else, my tutorial is only to share what i've learned over the past twenty plus years. i always tell everyone, that if something works for you, and it contradicts what i do, then who cares, it works for YOU, keep doing it. who am I to say otherwise? down the road, who knows, you may change it again. and that's completely valid and IMO that's the way martial arts should progress, it has to keep changing and growing because we as individuals keep changing and growing.

so don't look at my videos as me saying, "this is my way or the highway" cause that would just be plain ignorant of me, it's just sharing what works for me, that's all. and if it helps someone along the way, then it's worth it to me to put up the videos.

Jin

[ChinaBoxer]

I have watched all of your videos on youtube twice within the last two months as someone asked me to evaluate them. I appreciate what you are doing overall, I was only skeptical of this video, and a few minor points concerning punching. Moreover, I hope that you keep doing videos. You are a breath of fresh air for sure. I know of at least a few other people who like that you are bringing a modern approach to WC and putting it on video. It is very admirable.
just wanted to thank you for the kind words, heck, i don't think i've seen my own videos that much! :p

and i'm always looking to grow and learn from other peoples experiences. and i'm sure that along the way, i'll pick up a thing or two from you and others here in the forum.

take care and peace!

Jin

[anerlich]

This reminds me of when Vitor used to rush in and knock people unconscious in about 10 seconds and everyone claimed it a victory for BJJ lol... although at least Vitor had actually trained BJJ lol

Some people on this forum have previously used this as an example of WC principles as well. If you want to use MMA fighters to justify what you do, at least use someone like Alan Orr or his students who actually use WC principles while fighting, not a couple of exceptional MMA fighters (Belfort and Machida) who probably have never done a single lesson in WC.

[Knifefighter]

that's a good discussion there, hmm...i understand your point. don't forget, that i have done six years of shooto with Yori Nakamura at the Inosanto Academy, six years of muay thai and another four years of BJJ and two years of wrestling and ten years of wing chun so of course i understand your point because that's how i did it for years and years.

Four years of BJJ- that should make you either a purple or close to purple. How many BJJ/sub-comps have you done? What divisions? What is your belt ranking?

You wrestled for two years? Where? Which program and which competitions did you do? What MT shows did you fight in? Did you ever compete in shooto? If so, which comps?

[taai gihk yahn]

you can view the video...here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/09/importance-of-body-structure/)

the fact that you spent close to 10 minutes anchoring / entraining the guy into your movement paradigm essentially turns him into a compliant partner regardless of whether his movements are "brawler" style or not; the fact that neither you nor him realize that you have set up the operational context in this way is not surprising, as a large percentage of MA folks fall into this trap; but a basic assessment of what you do from a cognitive behavioral perspective readily shows how you have created a compliant situation

next time, go live first without all the preamble, do it with someone who doesn't know you, give them very simple direction (e.g. - "try to hit me / take me down, etc. however you like"), demo what you mean to demo, and then analyze / explain it after;

[ChinaBoxer]

ugh..this is getting silly, first off, there's a reason i posted this on the "wing chun" side of the forum, but it's been sidetracked into MMA vs wing chun methods. look, i do MMA also, i really enjoy sparring. i also enjoy the wing chun. they are both great methods.

what i'm sharing is my point of view on the subject of what works for me, you are absolutely entitled to disagree. and i'm always open to discuss your point of view and in the process, maybe i can learn from that viewpoint.

as for "knifefighter", you sound like my ex girlfriend, jeesh...you keep asking me about my grappling background and how many years this, and how long that. i've been very open with my martial arts experience. i've answered your questions, but now you keep asking me the same thing again and then on top of that you wanna know if i've competed and when and where etc...look, yes, i have competed, yes i fought in shooto, yes, i continue to spar, no i don't compete as often anymore because i'm older now, i'll be fourty next month. right now, i'm getting my students ready for a submission grappling tourney next month. but jeesh...enough with the same questions over and over. oh and btw, competition isn't the end all be all, so get over it. there are amazing grapplers who never compete. and before you ask...yes i do have all my fingers and toes..mmk?

anyways, i respect everyone's comments and i do pay attention to them regardless.

Jin

[ChinaBoxer]

I would add that , using chi-sao in your VID as base for avoiding 'shoots' is not the right platform to begin with. Your playing the grappling game ...VT tries to avoid the position and the grapple.
We dont start tacticaly from this point [chi-sao], nor do we use 2 equally extended arms facing as the chi-sao drill, these are just mutual points for partners to give a starting point in a basic , systematic, progressive path ..the path doesnt end telling you to stay in front of a 240lb guy looking to take you down, by standing in front of him with hips forwards .
{btw a good solid palm shot to the head of anyone big or small will work wonders}

...we use the basic stance and chi-sao facing in this basic manner, for DRILLING from, ie We have an eqaul starting point to deliver strikes to counter from either side , randomly, so each can develop left?right equally...then the DRILL adds evasive motion/entry/counter striking ?attacking from angles that the partner has given by stepping from either side...we shift to this entry, we MOVE from the line of force direction...

Many adopt a facing 'forever' rolling , wrist'ing, feeling idea, that is dependent on feeling things..iow your making yourself function by feeling things first...so you become reliant on making contact with arms first, lop sao'ing, over trapping, chasing to control arms trying to gain a better position etc... Chi-sao is a stage in developing a simpler idea. It has a redundant factor that unless its explained, will have you doing turning kwan-sao to a guy charging you head on while you do your turn and kwan ...wrong idea :D

The use of chi-sao as your starting pint will get you defeated by a competent grappler, sure we can adapt but we should adapt by learning grappling , not trying to re-invent the drill to make it a ''magic bullet' for all things fighting....

Chi-sao is a specific drill to our goals...it starts with slt >single arms drills that become redundant immediately because we dont strike in 2 beats outside the drill..as the drill makes us in that stage...iow we progress to a single beat strike....we use the single beat [2 actions] strikes in closer proximity in chi-sao 2 handed drills...we develop both sides in unison...facing for alignment ...yada yada..:D with both arms extended to offer each other the training development of each arm equally . The we learn movement when a guy steps at us with force....bull fighting...we adopt role palying for each other , being both the bull and the fighter countering ....
But even a bull fight starts with a gap of space ...no idea what side to go to when to go, how far , etc...that was done in the 'empty ring' facing friends pretending to be the bull and then swapping out...even the best fighter get gored...so its no going to help % by standing in front of the bull with hips forwards ...

then in the stages of 'development' we add entry and angling to a specified side of attack...ie you step in with a left tan strike I counter angle etc...with my right or left arm in fighting ..but drilling I angle offside to you to avoid being in the middle of your 2 arms ...why ? simple % rules...

If I fight 50% of you for as much time as I can while attacking or making you turn physically so you cant 'face' me with 2 hands even better...to start the drill with this idea of angling & moving while striking a moving object coming at you, we have to have an equal starting point to er, ah, start from :D ...you have to get out of the 2 hand rolling feeling thinking idea....standing like a statue in front of an oncoming attack, with 2 extended arms, turning to face an incoming punch.




..As a btw , Machida moves a lot laterally, spoiling attempts to take downs with mobility and evasive actions...i agree, nice post. but Machida also controls the distance by placing his weight primarily on his back leg, which makes him hard to reach. that's why grapplers are uncomfortable trying to "shoot" with such a wide gap. but yes, he does use lateral movement well, especially when he starts to feel the cage to his back.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"At the range outside of contact, you can do pretty much whatever you want, even bring your feet together. Watch Machida when he is inside contact range and is defending the takedown. His hips will move away. Hips are close when you are offensive and away when you are defensive." (KF)
..................................

***BINGO.

[ChinaBoxer]

Some people on this forum have previously used this as an example of WC principles as well. If you want to use MMA fighters to justify what you do, at least use someone like Alan Orr or his students who actually use WC principles while fighting, not a couple of exceptional MMA fighters (Belfort and Machida) who probably have never done a single lesson in WC.
this is also a valid point, but wing chun is a "concept" based method and it's concepts can be incorporated into many different martial arts methods, Bruce Lee JKD was founded on the concepts, and he modified boxing to fit within those concepts, that's why his boxing method looked completely different than a traditional boxer.

Machida is of course, not a wing chun practitioner, but he does utilize many of the same concepts, since karate's background is founded by Chinese Boxing. so there are many cross over concepts from one to the other, such as keeping both shoulders facing the opponent, sitting on the back leg, keeping the spine straight etc...and that's all i'm pointing out by using Machida as an example. but i do understand what you're trying to say.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good point about Bruce Lee and JKD...and I do see a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack employed by Vitor Belfort in his early fights.

But Lyoto Machida?

Because karate is originally a child/grandchild/great grandchild of kung fu in general?

WOW! What a stretch that is! :cool:

This somehow makes him a guy who's using wing chun concepts?! He looks NOTHING like a wing chun fighter in even the vaguest sense.

[ChinaBoxer]

Good point about Bruce Lee and JKD...and I do see a variation of the wing chun chain punch attack employed by Vitor Belfort in his early fights.

But Lyoto Machida?

Because karate is originally a child/grandchild/great grandchild of kung fu in general?

WOW! What a stretch that is! :cool:

This somehow makes him a guy who's using wing chun concepts?! He looks NOTHING like a wing chun fighter in even the vaguest sense.lol..yea i agree, it is a stretch, but you're a wing chun practitioner, and i'm sure you can see the same things i do, when you watch him, and that's his stance, his center of gravity, his shoulder line. albeit his hands are definitely not covering his centerline but there are certain aspects of his body structure that is very similar. i've never seen Vitor Belfort's fights, i'll definitely have to take a look at them.

[Knifefighter]

right now, i'm getting my students ready for a submission grappling tourney next month.

Which tournament?

[Ultimatewingchun]

lol..yea i agree, it is a stretch, but you're a wing chun practitioner, and i'm sure you can see the same things i do, when you watch him, and that's his stance, his center of gravity, his shoulder line. albeit his hands are definitely not covering his centerline but there are certain aspects of his body structure that is very similar. i've never seen Vitor Belfort's fights, i'll definitely have to take a look at them.

***WATCH Vitor Belfort's fight against Wanderlai Silva.

As for Machida, no man...still waaay too much of a stretch. Look, the very things you're pointing at as "wing chun-like" can also be said of at least a dozen other systems - because EVERY striking system worth its salt tries to implement a strong and balanced center of gravity and a strong body structure.

[ChinaBoxer]

wow..just saw the Vitor Belfort vs Silva fight. once again, that straight spine, weight sitting on the back leg, which as you pointed out is not just privy to wing chun, but you can't deny that, this type of stance is an extremely important concept to wing chun. also notice Silva's hips are bent in, making his head lean forward. and the chain punch at the end, with the shoulders square was very very nice. good centerline attack.

Belfort vs Silva (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6iqxr_victor-belfort-vs-wanderlei-silva-1_sport)

[ChinaBoxer]

Which tournament?grapplers X in long beach, come join us.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Although what I'm about to say is probably more appropriate to the "MMA - The Unstoppable Historical Force" thread, I suppose it now has relevance here as well.

I see the strategy, concepts, and tactics used by Belfort in that fight as a great example of what I've been saying for a long time: using some boxing from longer ranges can be an excellent "entry" into the shorter wing chun range where you might be able to finish the opponent with some "typical" wing chun, ie.- a chain punch attack as a finisher.

What do I mean by this?

Watch the Belfort/Silva fight again and you'll see that Vitor first stunned Wanderlai from longer range with a big rear (boxing-like) cross - and then followed/finished with the chain punch attack.

From my point of view: beautiful !!!

[k gledhill]

i agree, nice post. but Machida also controls the distance by placing his weight primarily on his back leg, which makes him hard to reach. that's why grapplers are uncomfortable trying to "shoot" with such a wide gap. but yes, he does use lateral movement well, especially when he starts to feel the cage to his back.

thanks, Machida doesnt do VT ;) so he adopts a digfferent method but still evasive and spoiling with distances....

The side stance face offs we use llow quick shifts and lateral moves to entry to us..or simply to re-face the motion of an ongoing fight ..small shifts , turns , steps all combined in fluid action...you can move anywhere you like....obviously you cant be in the right place all the time so we have to parry our way to the flanks or make them available with other options...

MMA has become sportified....add 2 versus 1 or 3 v 1 and a possible glass bottle, chair,etc...random entry of a 4th person and woila ..your at the bar ;) watching the fight and realize YOUR on TV :D smiling after you hit guys ...waving at mom :)

Gladiators had the right idea...get ina ring with swords and spears and have at it ...
throw ina few lions and tigers for 1/2 time :D now that I woudl pay to watch.

[Phil Redmond]

grapplers X in long beach, come join us.
Have you ever competed in full contact events using WC?

[ChinaBoxer]

Have you ever competed in full contact events using WC?
in competitions, no. in sparring sessions, yes. and grapplers x is pure submission grappling, there is no striking involved.

[ChinaBoxer]

this is for "knifefighter", Dale Franks. so you say you trained with Hawkins Cheung? when was this and for how long?

[Frost]

ugh..this is getting silly, first off, there's a reason i posted this on the "wing chun" side of the forum, but it's been sidetracked into MMA vs wing chun methods. look, i do MMA also, i really enjoy sparring. i also enjoy the wing chun. they are both great methods.

what i'm sharing is my point of view on the subject of what works for me, you are absolutely entitled to disagree. and i'm always open to discuss your point of view and in the process, maybe i can learn from that viewpoint.

as for "knifefighter", you sound like my ex girlfriend, jeesh...you keep asking me about my grappling background and how many years this, and how long that. i've been very open with my martial arts experience. i've answered your questions, but now you keep asking me the same thing again and then on top of that you wanna know if i've competed and when and where etc...look, yes, i have competed, yes i fought in shooto, yes, i continue to spar, no i don't compete as often anymore because i'm older now, i'll be fourty next month. right now, i'm getting my students ready for a submission grappling tourney next month. but jeesh...enough with the same questions over and over. oh and btw, competition isn't the end all be all, so get over it. there are amazing grapplers who never compete. and before you ask...yes i do have all my fingers and toes..mmk?

anyways, i respect everyone's comments and i do pay attention to them regardless.

Jin

this is probably why he is asking:

“You need to spend more time learning the grappling game before you try to instruct it and tell people that your approach is better than other instructors' approach. So far, you are getting all the principles mixed up. I'm guessing, based on our videos and, since you haven't answered anyone's questions regarding this, that you have limited or no competition background and relatively little standup grappling experience.”

those of us that have actually grappled know what works and what does not, and when what people say does not actually match with the experience they claim to have we get a bit sceptical

[Phil Redmond]

this is probably why he is asking:

“You need to spend more time learning the grappling game before you try to instruct it and tell people that your approach is better than other instructors' approach. So far, you are getting all the principles mixed up. I'm guessing, based on our videos and, since you haven't answered anyone's questions regarding this, that you have limited or no competition background and relatively little standup grappling experience.”

those of us that have actually grappled know what works and what does not, and when what people say does not actually match with the experience they claim to have we get a bit sceptical
With no offense to Jin I'll have to agree with having. Having competed in full contact events where people are trying to wreck you, not sparring sessions, I can see what will work and what won't with regards to standup.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE Machida,
Not sure why anyone, other than a shotokan nutrider, would want to ride Lyoto's nuts but:
Machida's hybrid shotokan is about as "kung fu ish" as Anderson Silva's reverse elbow.
Lyoto's karate looks just like any karate would look like if it was adapted and trained to fight in a MMA enviroment.
Now, the reason you don't see much of it anywhere else is because, typically, when people do MMA they end up doing MT for their striking and "mixing " it up with BJJ which lends a distinct look to their striking.
Lyoto didn't do that because his father modified traditional Shotokan and made it his own and he was raised on it.
Give the old man serious props for that, he took a page out of the Gracie handbook in that regard.

[Yoshiyahu]

this is for "knifefighter", Dale Franks. so you say you trained with Hawkins Cheung? when was this and for how long?

You will come to find. Some people are MMA fighters who have aspects of Wing Chun but not really WC practioners. This is why many people will asked you about stand up grappling and ground fighting. Because thats their Skill or Niche. Their whole strategy is based on getting you to ground and dominating you there to advoid getting whooped while standing.

[anerlich]

RE Machida,
Not sure why anyone, other than a shotokan nutrider, would want to ride Lyoto's nuts but:...
Give the old man serious props for that, he took a page out of the Gracie handbook in that regard.

Agree 100%.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My problem with this video is that if you are really going against a someone with that much size discrepancy who also has some experience in grappling, it's going to be nothing like what was shown on the clip. First of all, you won't be able to push the guy around like that. Secondly, the arm control will not happen the way it was shown. The "brawler, grappler" never once worked for underhooks, overwraps, head control, or over/unders, which is what would really be happening. From a technical standpoint, I see that clip as not being representative of what will happen in the situation that was portrayed.

***I NEVER WATCHED the entire vid ChinaBoxer made with Julius (on the first post on this thread) until right now. The first time I looked at it, I stopped watching after seeing the way CB was coming in after Julius threw the lead jab and said what I said about eating the big left hook if he did that.

But now that I've seen the rest...oh yeah....Knifefighter is 100% correct. It' not going to happen like that against a fully resisting guy (ie.- Julius) who is a good grappler/mma type fighter, and who's also using underhooks, overhooks, head control, pummeling to body locks, knee and elbow strikes, etc.

No way.

[ChinaBoxer]

i understand everyone's point, but just remember that this is a training video on "structure", it's not a sparring video. i think some of you are making it out as more than what it is.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I can't see how you can have one without the other.

If you want to use a big, strong, tough, multi-skilled dude like Julius (your words in the vid) as an example of the kind of guy you might have to deal with (again, your words)...and he might do something like this, ie.- throw a jab and bring it back...or try to do something after you've bridged into his body with both your arms...

then he's got to do something!!!! :eek: :cool: :D

Like hook off the jab as you come in, for example. Like one or more of the various moves I mentioned in my previous post as a result of your bridging him with both your arms.

Because big, strong, tough, multi-skilled dudes don't just stand there after throwing a jab or getting grabbed.

So no, I don't think you understand my point. To say that it's just a "training" video and not a "sparring" video is highly disengenuous, quite frankly.

That's my opinion.

[ChinaBoxer]

I can't see how you can have one without the other.

If you want to use a big, strong, tough, multi-skilled dude like Julius (your words in the vid) as an example of the kind of guy you might have to deal with (again, your words)...and he might do something like this, ie.- throw a jab and bring it back...or try to do something after you've bridged into his body with both your arms...

then he's got to do something!!!! :eek: :cool: :D

Like hook off he jab as you come in, for example. Like one or more of the various moves I mentioned in my previous post as a result of your bridging him with both your arms.

Because big, strong, tough, multi-skilled dudes don't just stand there after throwing a jab or getting grabbed.

So no, I don't think you understand my point. To say that it's just a "training" video and not a "sparring" video is highly disengenuous, quite frankly.

That's my opinion.lol..i gotcha, bro. i'll keep it in mind for future videos. peace!

[Wayfaring]

i understand everyone's point, but just remember that this is a training video on "structure", it's not a sparring video. i think some of you are making it out as more than what it is.

The times where "structure" has any meaning at all outside of a fighting scenario or sparring training for a fighting scenario is when you have the part in a school play of the tree that stands there for 45 minutes.