what came first??

[uki]

the student or the master??

if the student, who was his master - if the master, how did he learn??

:cool:

[MasterKiller]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/KlayLoudermilk/couragewolf.jpg

[No_Know]

The student is the master. A tree grows even after it is accepted as being a tree. The master is still the student. By remaining the student the master grows.

Application and database. Experience and exposure. If one continues--persistance/dilligence. These things increase. With this increase comes improvement as there is understanding.

There is no tree without the seed/acorn. Being is a process. From the seed/acorn to the still growing grand tree is the same being.

Descriptors...catipillar and butterfly, seed/acorn and tree, egg and chicken. zygote and woman/man

Same being, differing perceptions of the same being or more at being in process. With understanding and growth one might say a person or thing is different based on its growth/understanding.

We believe what is put in front of us. We choose from options handed to us. A coin has Three sides. A cup/glass contains fluid.

The master is what we call a student who has studied and understood or one with comprehension and deliverability.

Day is 23 hours 56 minutes and 54 seconds or some such. But day light is also called day. A day is made-up of or contains day and night.

The master is a student who continued studies.

A student who continues to study might master those studies. And realize the application and ramifications related to what has been studied.

When we look at we say master. When they look at themselves they might think student.

Perception, Intention, Perception, Reflection

To be a master one usually must study.

The chicken is a deviation of whatever laid the egg. The egg came first the chicken would be a deviation that stuck.

The student is seen first. But the master decides to begin studies.

No_Know

[No_Know]

As far as how did the master learn, the master knew (regardless of the background) would like to be a/the master--Commitment/Dedication.

No_Know

[SPJ]

the student or the master??

if the student, who was his master - if the master, how did he learn??

:cool:

chicken or egg first ?

chicks hatched from eggs.

eggs are layed by chickens.

:confused:

[uki]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/KlayLoudermilk/couragewolf.jpgi guess you think this is some sort of koan or something?? are you implying a metaphorical lesson here?? LOL... another fine demonstration of incapability from our dear friend "master*snicker*killer".

[MasterKiller]

http://13.media.tumblr.com/xKP5mpCv3o7ddlopON6Z7FIoo1_500.png

[uki]

you're not important enough for me to repeat my post. :)

[MasterKiller]

http://memegenerator.net/Instances/679/Courage-Wolf-UKI-DOESNT-SHOWER-YET-I-CAN-STILL-SMELL-HIS-FEAR.jpg

[uki]

http://memegenerator.net/Instances/679/Courage-Wolf-UKI-DOESNT-SHOWER-YET-I-CAN-STILL-SMELL-HIS-FEAR.jpghc1 box 98 bartonsville, pa 18321... 4th driveway on the right tough guy. :)

[MasterKiller]

hc1 box 98 bartonsville, pa 18321... 4th driveway on the right tough guy. :)

LOL! Not only a public e-challenge, but a Private Message challenge to boot!

A true master of the Tao, indeed. :rolleyes:

[uki]

LOL! Not only a public e-challenge, but a Private Message challenge to boot! A true master of the Tao, indeed.exactly the point... some people like to keep it real. this goes for anyone on the internet... fear is a disease - i don't have it. if you want to pretend to be tough to your internet buddies, then so be it, but you and your internet buddies have seen that i do not taske lightly to idle gossip - speak with your heart or STFU... i know who i am and what i am capable of. :)

masterkiller here is a mod, yet his greatest purpose in life is to hear the lamentations of his enemies women... his forum name is the orgasmic desire to be what he obviously is not... bogged down with worldly responsibilities, he escapes the reality of the pain he chooses to endure by pretending to be something he is not...

[MasterKiller]

exactly the point... some people like to keep it real. this goes for anyone on the internet... fear is a disease - i don't have it. if you want to pretend to be tough to your internet buddies, then so be it, but you and your internet buddies have seen that i do not taske lightly to idle gossip - speak with your heart or STFU... i know who i am and what i am capable of. :)

masterkiller here is a mod, yet his greatest purpose in life is to hear the lamentations of his enemies women... his forum name is the orgasmic desire to be what he obviously is not... bogged down with worldly responsibilities, he escapes the reality of the pain he chooses to endure by pretending to be something he is not...

You wear your fear like badge, Sookie. You're the little boy huddled under his blanket in the deep of night that believes if he just keeps telling himself that monsters are afraid of the dark, too, then it just might be true.

[uki]

You wear your fear like badge, Sookie. You're the little boy huddled under his blanket in the deep of night that believes if he just keeps telling himself that monsters are afraid of the dark, too, then it just might be true.lol... yes... you are right. you know the monsters would kick yer a$$ if you ever visited their lair with your attitude. :)

[SPJ]

the student or the master??

if the student, who was his master - if the master, how did he learn??

:cool:

one has to be a student first before becoming good at whatever one is doing.

a master of A may be a student of B.

we can only be master of one or just a few things.

jack of all trade is a master of none.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDtR2QybB58&feature=related

hard to imagine college girls and working women may arm themself and serve as home guards of beijing

I meant wow.

a lot of drooling on the keyboard. too many pretty and tall women together.

no can fight. I surrender already.

:D

[David Jamieson]

The master who is not a student is neither.

[GeneChing]

What is it? Chinese breast cancer awareness month?

If the white on those uniforms was swapped with black and those boots had stiletto heels, then you'd be talking. A brigade like that would strike fear in any infantry. ;)

P.S. don't post challenges publicly here please. Come on guys, you know the drill about that. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

So sayeth Gene...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5489&d=1255373095

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDtR2QybB58&feature=related

** boing **

[David Jamieson]

** boing **

Like an Austin Powers movie.
:p

[uki]

P.S. don't post challenges publicly here please.it was hardly a challenge... it's kind of difficult to publicly show no fear, i was shooting from the hip by posting my physical address. :p

besides... i wouldn't want masterkiller to bite off more than he could chew. :D

[MasterKiller]

it was hardly a challenge... it's kind of difficult to publicly show no fear, i was shooting from the hip by posting my physical address. :p

besides... i wouldn't want masterkiller to bite off more than he could chew. :D

I guess the PM enticing me to your house was just your latent hom0sexuality being expressed?

[AdrianK]

fear is a disease - i don't have it.

Fear's a natural response.

If you don't have it there's likely something psychologically wrong with you.

[Scott R. Brown]

Fear's a natural response.

If you don't have it there's likely something psychologically wrong with you.

Or you don't feel like you have anything to lose. You only fear when you fear to lose something, face, your life, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fear's a natural response.

If you don't have it there's likely something psychologically wrong with you.

People without fear make stupid ****ing mistakes.
fear is there for a reason, it keeps us alert and helps us not underestimate anyone.

[Scott R. Brown]

People without fear make stupid ****ing mistakes.
fear is there for a reason, it keeps us alert and helps us not underestimate anyone.

Conquering fear is part of Ch'an/Zen training. It possible and is a normal psychological condition, albeit rare.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Conquering fear is part of Ch'an/Zen training. It possible and is a normal psychological condition, albeit rare.

I would argue that it is not CONQUERING fear but "understanding" it and "using" it, that is part of Zen training.
One does not conquer our natural instincts, they are there for a reason.

[dirtyrat]

How would you guys define fear?

IMO I don't think recognition of danger is the same thing as fear.

[Ray Pina]

The student.

The first master ever had to start as a student himself, of his surroundings and how they operate.... if he's a real master at all he never stopped being a student.

[David Jamieson]

Conquering fear is part of Ch'an/Zen training. It possible and is a normal psychological condition, albeit rare.

This is true.

I would add that the fear doesn't go away though. It is as you state conquered though and regulated.

:)

[uki]

How would you guys define fear?fear is disease of the spirit... a lack of harmony with oneself, with who and what they are and why they are here.



The first master ever had to start as a student himself, of his surroundings and how they operate.... if he's a real master at all he never stopped being a student.ahhh... so would you agree that nature was the master??

[David Jamieson]

fear is a mechanism.

actual definition from a psych standpoint (sic)

a normal emotional response to consciously recognized external sources of danger such as those often associated with loud noises, threatening gestures, strange people and thunderstorms; it is manifested in animals by flight, by attack or by cringing.

[uki]

actual definition from a psych standpoint (sic)as provided by who??

[David Jamieson]

as provided by who??

medical dictionary. pick one.

[dirtyrat]

fear is a mechanism.

actual definition from a psych standpoint (sic)

a normal emotional response to consciously recognized external sources of danger such as those often associated with loud noises, threatening gestures, strange people and thunderstorms; it is manifested in animals by flight, by attack or by cringing.

There is something not totally right with that definition. People can recognize danger and not feel the emotional reponse. For example, before crossing the road one might see oncoming cars & recognize the danger they represent and not feel fear.

So you might ask yourself when does the emotional response called fear arise and why?

[Scott R. Brown]

I would argue that it is not CONQUERING fear but "understanding" it and "using" it, that is part of Zen training.
One does not conquer our natural instincts, they are there for a reason.

You do not understand your own mind very well and don't understand Ch'an. Just because one cannot conceive of something for them self as being possible does not mean it is not possible. It only means you cannot conceive of it for yourself.

There is no fear when there is no attachment. There are Taoist stories addressing the conquering of fear as well as Ch'an stories.

But I do agree that "conquering" does not need to be used to describe it, we could say it is transcendence of fear.

Transcendence of fear does not necessitate psychological instability. In fact it enhances clear perception and intuitive insight allowing one to make clearer, more effect decisions!

[Scott R. Brown]

This is true.

I would add that the fear doesn't go away though. It is as you state conquered though and regulated.

:)

I have to disagree with you David, there is only fear when attachment is present. If one is not emotionally attached to an ego identity, they have nothing to lose, when there is nothing to lose there is nothing to fear.

Fear is present when events present an impending loss to us. It is the attachment to life that creates the fear of death. It is the fear of injury or death that creates fear when facing a tiger a bear, a beating down!

When one is no longer attached to anything there is no fear present because there is no fear of something to lose.

[Scott R. Brown]

How would you guys define fear?

IMO I don't think recognition of danger is the same thing as fear.

Fear arises when one is attached to anything. With emotional attachment the fear of losing what one is attached to is created with it.

So when one is attached to life, health, their wife, children, car, job, etc. fear arises automatically just as Yin arises automatically with Yang.

When one is no longer attached, fear disappears on its own.

It is that people cannot conceive of living without attachment, so they convince themselves that fear cannot be transcended. This is erroneous thinking, once attachment ceases, with it goes fear.

There is a famous Taoist story about a man who was running from a tiger. The tiger chased him to a cliff. He climbed down the cliff and was hanging perilously by a vine. The vine began to come up by the roots and as it was beginning to give way he spied a strawberry. He grasped the strawberry and ate it, enjoying its taste!

This is an example of living without fear.

Before anyone says, "Yeah! Well he ran from the tiger!" Living without fear does not make one an idiot. Of course the smart thing to do when faced with danger is to protect yourself and others. This is only reasonable behavior, but reasonable behavior in the face of danger should not be confused with fear!

[Ray Pina]

I'm not scared to talk to girls or women. I used to be scared to fly but aint no more. I fly to China every year now. I'm not scared of losing my job. and ultimately, I'm not scared of dying..... but when I'm out surfing and a 30-foot wave blocks out the horizon, I'm scared. There's fear there. Surfing has helped me come to terms with fear, but I haven't met anyone who's fearless.

The most important thing is not to inherit other people's fears. People will make you feel fear about doing things that they themselves are afraid to do.

I also think arguing over these things, which everyone knows intuitively, is childish. Bunch of grown Buddha's with nothing better to do with their enlightened a$$es.

[uki]

The most important thing is not to inherit other people's fears. People will make you feel fear about doing things that they themselves are afraid to do.yes!!! this is like a plague in american society... i love it when people lock and secure their car alarms simply to go and get a pack of cigarettes even though they parked right in front of the shop windows... average americans are filthfully afraid of their own shadows.

[David Jamieson]

Fear is an emotional response. An autonomic response to stimuli that is external to the self.

You can regulate emotion, but to do away with them is an error in my opinion as it is our emotions that are part of our whole.

I would endorse a modern behavioural sciences assessment of what fear is before anything else.

Why guess at it? The clinical science and studies have been done and the information is totally available.

I don't understand why people return to their piles of rubble after being presented with useful and working houses. lol :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You do not understand your own mind very well and don't understand Ch'an. Just because one cannot conceive of something for them self as being possible does not mean it is not possible. It only means you cannot conceive of it for yourself.

There is no fear when there is no attachment. There are Taoist stories addressing the conquering of fear as well as Ch'an stories.

But I do agree that "conquering" does not need to be used to describe it, we could say it is transcendence of fear.

Transcendence of fear does not necessitate psychological instability. In fact it enhances clear perception and intuitive insight allowing one to make clearer, more effect decisions!

Yes, that's true, there is A LOT of STORIES about many things.
Of course some of us that have actually served on front lines and seen and felt true fear, seen its look on the eyes of people being presecuted and slaughtered, seen it's look on the guy next to us or the guy in our cross-hairs, for those that have experinced that, "stories" don't mean much.
But good luck with that.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, that's true, there is A LOT of STORIES about many things.
Of course some of us that have actually served on front lines and seen and felt true fear, seen its look on the eyes of people being presecuted and slaughtered, seen it's look on the guy next to us or the guy in our cross-hairs, for those that have experinced that, "stories" don't mean much.
But good luck with that.

Let experience be your gauge. :)

even with ch'an, which is not a vehicle to sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies, it is a vehicle of self recognition. Part of yourself is your fears. Fear is a mechanism that is there as a sort of an add in to our innate want to live and to survive.

you can regulate whether the emotion will paralyze you through mental training and technique, but if it is eliminated, then that is a mental problem by definition.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let experience be your gauge. :)

even with ch'an, which is not a vehicle to sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies, it is a vehicle of self recognition. Part of yourself is your fears. Fear is a mechanism that is there as a sort of an add in to our innate want to live and to survive.

you can regulate whether the emotion will paralyze you through mental training and technique, but if it is eliminated, then that is a mental problem by definition.

Fear is a health emotion, when used properly and controlled.
Emotion are not conquered, nor should they be, it is not natural.
To deny what makes us, US is just silly, we have to understand it and control it.
I recall a buddy of mine, part of the JTF ( yeah, one of those guys), we did a Halo jump, I was scared ****less and he was loving it, he enjoyed the feeling of fear.
His daughter got real sick, I mean REAL sick, he finally understood real fear and it made him a far better soldier and person.
She made it out just fine by the way.

[Ray Pina]

yes!!! this is like a plague in american society... i love it when people lock and secure their car alarms simply to go and get a pack of cigarettes even though they parked right in front of the shop windows... average americans are filthfully afraid of their own shadows.

I'll tell you what though. When I was in college I parked my Jeep about 40 yards from what used to be an Army/Navy store of MLK BLVD. in Newark. As soon as I reached the storefront I realized it was transformed into an urban fashion outlet with Cardhart jackets and sneakers.

Walking back, I see some guy peeking in my back window. As I get closer, he's now fumbling with the small triangle mirror. I call out and start to jog my approach... to make myself known, be aggressive, but also not running to get some time to take in the situation. The guy jumps into a car idling beside my jeep and takes off.

The next day someone was shot on that corner in a car jack attempt.

There are things to be afraid of. That's my point.

You need to control your mind of unreasonable fears. You need to understand the nature of fear, but not only does fear exists, at times it is good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll tell you what though. When I was in college I parked my Jeep about 40 yards from what used to be an Army/Navy store of MLK BLVD. in Newark. As soon as I reached the storefront I realized it was transformed into an urban fashion outlet with Cardhart jackets and sneakers.

Walking back, I see some guy peeking in my back window. As I get closer, he's now fumbling with the small triangle mirror. I call out and start to jog my approach... to make myself known, be aggressive, but also not running to get some time to take in the situation. The guy jumps into a car idling beside my jeep and takes off.

The next day someone was shot on that corner in a car jack attempt.

There are things to be afraid of. That's my point.

You need to control your mind of unreasonable fears. You need to understand the nature of fear, but not only does fear exists, at times it is good.

Ray has toe kicked the correct in the armpit !

[Scott R. Brown]

Yes, that's true, there is A LOT of STORIES about many things.
Of course some of us that have actually served on front lines and seen and felt true fear, seen its look on the eyes of people being presecuted and slaughtered, seen it's look on the guy next to us or the guy in our cross-hairs, for those that have experinced that, "stories" don't mean much.
But good luck with that.

Hmmm well I talked to a Zen Master who was in WWII. Everyone has different experiences. What is important is not to project our world view limitations on to others!

Just because you experienced fear in combat does not mean it will be experienced by everyone. Although clearly it takes special training to transcend fear.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll tell you what though. When I was in college I parked my Jeep about 40 yards from what used to be an Army/Navy store of MLK BLVD. in Newark. As soon as I reached the storefront I realized it was transformed into an urban fashion outlet with Cardhart jackets and sneakers.

Walking back, I see some guy peeking in my back window. As I get closer, he's now fumbling with the small triangle mirror. I call out and start to jog my approach... to make myself known, be aggressive, but also not running to get some time to take in the situation. The guy jumps into a car idling beside my jeep and takes off.

The next day someone was shot on that corner in a car jack attempt.

There are things to be afraid of. That's my point.

You need to control your mind of unreasonable fears. You need to understand the nature of fear, but not only does fear exists, at times it is good.

There is a difference between the recognition of danger and fear. There is no reason to be fearful, but there is every reason to be aware of danger.

Fear is a reaction to impending loss. When we don't want to lose something important to us fear is created when it may be lost, i.e. our life, health, possessions. When you have nothing to lose you have nothing to fear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm well I talked to a Zen Master who was in WWII. Everyone has different experiences. What is important is not to project our world view limitations on to others!

Just because you experienced fear in combat does not mean it will be experienced by everyone. Although clearly it takes special training to transcend fear.

Are you telling me your Zen master did NOT experience fear in combat?
Anyone can transcend fear, I know quite a few idiots that show no fear, just because they are to dumb to realize how close they came to death.
Yep I expereinced fear in combat, for myself, for my team mate, for the people I saw begging not to get slaughtered.
I wouldn't trade that emotion for anything.

[Scott R. Brown]

Are you telling me your Zen master did NOT experience fear in combat?
Anyone can transcend fear, I know quite a few idiots that show no fear, just because they are to dumb to realize how close they came to death.
Yep I expereinced fear in combat, for myself, for my team mate, for the people I saw begging not to get slaughtered.
I wouldn't trade that emotion for anything.

What I am saying is that just because you experience fear does not mean that fear need be experienced by you or anyone else. You appear to have fallen into the common fallacy of, "Because I have no knowledge of it, and no experience of it, it cannot occur!"

There is a looooong history in Buddhism addressing the illusion of fear and its cause. Just because you accept fear as a limitation does not mean everyone need be bound by fear. Feel free to accept fear in your life. That is your limitation to enjoy.

However, for those who wish to transcend the bonds of fear there is a way to overcome it. That is not to say it is easily accomplished, it is to say there is a long and well established tradition amongst men better than you or I addressing the cause of fear and there is a well established process for its transcendence.

I would not force this tradition on anyone, but to say, "All fear because I fear!" or "All fear because it is a common phenomena amongst nearly all men!" is erroneous thinking.

It is very simple....fear occurs when you have something to lose. We have something to lose when we are attached to phenomena, that is, attached to the illusion of a self, an ego, an individuality, possessions, goals, etc. This is old teaching that goes back thousands of years. It is immaterial whether you understand it or accept it. Fear, its origins and its manifestations, is a topic that has been addressed by wise men and there is a means of overcoming it.

Here is a short section from early Ch'an writings. It is amongst the earliest known Ch'an writings:

"What is mind like? It is always your mind-consciousness brush painting and creating these interpretations. You yourself bring on the anxiety. You yourself bring on the fear. In reality within [phenomena] there is neither sin nor merit. Your mind itself creates these interpretations. It is as if someone were to paint the forms of [monsters], ghosts, dragons, and tigers. He himself paints them, but when he looks at them in turn, he himself gets fearful. In the paint ultimately there is no locus to be feared. It is always your mind-consciousness brush discriminating and creating these interpretations….It is always your false thought creating these interpretations.”

If you choose to treasure your limitations, peace be with you! Do not impose your limitations upon others!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scott,
YOU view fear as a limitation, not me.
Notice that I never ONCE said that it was nor that it should hold anyone back.
You did assume as much it seems.
Maybe you should look into that ;)

All the best.

[David Jamieson]

fear is an emotion.

it is there as a service to you, not a limitation.

that would be akin to saying love is a limitation.

fear doesn't necessarily impede action either, although it has been shown that under great stress, people dump adreniline and that in turn can cause a type of paralysis to occur.

regulation of fear is to impede the adrenaline dump when under stress.
this can be achieved through practice of zazen.

but to completely turn off any of your emotions is a slippery slope and to not be fully human.

to be overwhelmed by emotions is also a lacking of sorts, and so these methods are developed to tune an individual more so than to radically alter them away from humanity.

[Ray Pina]

When you have nothing to lose you have nothing to fear.

A man with nothing to lose is dangerous to himself and others.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott,
YOU view fear as a limitation, not me.
Notice that I never ONCE said that it was nor that it should hold anyone back.
You did assume as much it seems.
Maybe you should look into that ;)

All the best.

Hi Sanjuro,

I don't recall stating that you consider it a limitation. It is clear I consider it a limitation, but that has no bearing on my argument. Fear impedes reason and creates many of the atrocities that occur in this world! I consider this a harmful limitation.

If you wish to embrace fear for your own purposes, it is not my place to interfere with your purposes, nor is it my wish. I am merely presenting a different perspective on fear.

Yours is not the last word on the topic and neither is mine. Readers may read both of our opinions and glean from them what they find beneficial for themselves and ignore what they find disagreeable.


fear is an emotion.

it is there as a service to you, not a limitation.

that would be akin to saying love is a limitation.

fear doesn't necessarily impede action either, although it has been shown that under great stress, people dump adreniline and that in turn can cause a type of paralysis to occur.

regulation of fear is to impede the adrenaline dump when under stress.
this can be achieved through practice of zazen.

but to completely turn off any of your emotions is a slippery slope and to not be fully human.

to be overwhelmed by emotions is also a lacking of sorts, and so these methods are developed to tune an individual more so than to radically alter them away from humanity.

Hi David,

Fear is a reaction to events/phenomena as it is interpreted by our minds. A child, unaware of the danger, may walk down the middle of a highway and feel no fear. This is because they do not interpret the circumstance as being dangerous to their safety. The same thing has occurred with children being in the presence of wild animals such as bears and tigers. When we do not interpret the events we witness as presenting an impending loss to us, we do not experience fear.

I once knew a person who, when they were 5 years old, walked into the kitchen of his home holding a large rattlesnake in the middle of its body. He had no fear because he did not recognize an impending danger or loss to his security. His mother, having presence of mind, did not panic. She merely told him, "Yes honey, very nice. Now take it outside please!

The child was not harmed.

Fear is a manifestation of our minds and how we interpret the events we experience.

One may experience an adrenaline dump without experiencing fear, but this too involves a mental interpretation of an event.

While an adrenaline dump may be advantageous under some circumstances it is just as likely to create complications since it also impairs clear thinking.

Eliminating/transcending fear does not necessitate the elimination of love as an experience, however the presence of love does involve attachment as well and love is clearly a limitation under many circumstances.

I am not arguing against love or fear, I am stating that one need not experience fear as an emotion. Once again, that does not mean one does not recognize danger when it exists, it is just that when one is not attached to ego, self, possessions etc. one has nothing to lose and when one has nothing to lose there is no fear created.

I try to explain it like this:

Imagine you are playing a computer game. You have your character and you are playing along. Now imagine you forget that your character is pretend. The goals you have for that character become "more" real than they would when you remember it is all just pretend. When your character loses something or fails to meet a goal, the amount of emotion you feel will be directly proportional to that amount of attachment you have to the success of the character.

When you leave the game you come back to your senses and you realize it was all just pretend. When your character died you did not die. The game was not over, in that it can always be replayed. This is life from the Buddhist perspective. If it is all pretend then there is nothing really lost, when nothing is really lost, there is no need for fear!

This is how Buddhism views life experiences. They are as real as we make them by our attachments to the game. There is no "right or wrong" value attached to it. There are those who enjoy being attached to the game and those who choose to transcend attachment to the game, neither are "better" people than the other. Some merely understand the game is a game and therefore do not become overly attached to success or failure, winning or losing! These individuals experiences life differently than those who remain attached.

The question then becomes, "Is one attached because they willing choose to remain attached or are they slaves to a delusion, a belief that the "pretend" game is real?"

The values we attach to the game are created by our own mind. Some recognize this and there are consequence that attend that realization, some do not recognize this and there are consequences that attend that circumstance as well.

[Scott R. Brown]

A man with nothing to lose is dangerous to himself and others.

If he is ruled/controlled by other attachments this is true, if he is free of all attachments he is not!

[Ray Pina]

So if there are so many fearless buddhas on this forum, why can't anyone go fight and raise the standard of kung fu?
Let me guess, this level of transcendent knowledge accompanies the high-level skill attached only to pacifism. Or, could it be that people are scared? Have fear of damaging these same ego's they're talking about.

Without a sense of self and preserving that self there would be no need to study martial arts or zen. There's be no reason to drink water, eat or sleep.

This is the intellectual bull$hit I can't stand. It's just words.... a WWII vet with no fear? How did he survive? Running around the battlefield fearless?..... doubtful. I'm guessing a good dose of time has softened some of those rememberances .... or just helps in the marketing of being a buddhist.

So many enlightened men paying their online provider monthly to post on the internet.... who would ever of though it?

[MasterKiller]

He who has a why to live can bear almost any how--Friedrich Nietzsche

[Ray Pina]

If he is ruled/controlled by other attachments this is true, if he is free of all attachments he is not!

Who is free of all attachments?

[David Jamieson]

Who is free of all attachments?

The dead are free from attachment. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

So if there are so many fearless buddhas on this forum, why can't anyone go fight and raise the standard of kung fu?
Let me guess, this level of transcendent knowledge accompanies the high-level skill attached only to pacifism. Or, could it be that people are scared? Have fear of damaging these same ego's they're talking about.

Without a sense of self and preserving that self there would be no need to study martial arts or zen. There's be no reason to drink water, eat or sleep.

This is the intellectual bull$hit I can't stand. It's just words.... a WWII vet with no fear? How did he survive? Running around the battlefield fearless?..... doubtful. I'm guessing a good dose of time has softened some of those rememberances .... or just helps in the marketing of being a buddhist.

So many enlightened men paying their online provider monthly to post on the internet.... who would ever of though it?

No Ray it is information you do not understand and rather than attempting to go through the effort to understand it and possibly change your world view, which perhaps scares you, it is easier for you to call it bullsh!t and ignore it completely.

[Ray Pina]

The dead are free from attachment. :)

True. Good post.


........

[Scott R. Brown]

He who has a why to live can bear almost any how--Friedrich Nietzsche

This is true, however they do not necessarily transcend suffering.


Who is free of all attachments?

Good question! If you were really interested in the answer you would benefit from the search.

[dirtyrat]

Interesting discussion.
I agree that to turn off your emotions is not what we want.
Emotions are a part of who we are but most people don’t even understand their emotions. Ask ten people what love is and you get ten different answers.

I think the heart of the matter is we need to grow as a human being. Challenge what we as a society (and so-called experts) established as being true (what love or fear is). Because whether you see it or not, there’s a lot of things that’s messed up in our society.

When we learn to understand ourselves, we can understand others. Maybe then we won’t be so fearful of so many things; things we are sometimes not even aware of. Like why we’re so easily offended and hostile (hostility is an aggressive form of fear) with someone stating their opinion.

Maybe then we can call ourselves ‘masters’.

Not because I have the strength or skills to dominate others, but because….

[Ray Pina]

No Ray it is information you do not understand and rather than attempting to go through the effort to understand it and possibly change your world view, which perhaps scares you, it is easier for you to call it bullsh!t and ignore it completely.


You've been taking a very holier then thou attitude throughout this post. You are not the only one to have pondered and studied these things. I could make a million arguments on your side... I'm choosing to make arguments against your side simply because of your attitude.

No attachments? We have attachments so deeply ingrained in us.... try not breathing for 10 minutes and come back and post about it.

[Scott R. Brown]

You've been taking a very holier then thou attitude throughout this post.

No Ray, that is how you interpret it. All I have done is share what is written in Ch'an literature on the subject. You have a pattern of projecting your own issues on to everyone else. I don't care if others want to cherish fear, or ignore it or transcend it. It is their choice. Neither do the teachings of Ch'an criticize others for cherishing fear. The teachings are meant to provide a solution for those who find a problem in their lives they would like a solution too.

Others have stated their view on the matter and I have stated mine. I am confident in my comments, if that offends you that is your problem to deal with, not mine!


You are not the only one to have pondered and studied these things. I could make a million arguments on your side... I'm choosing to make arguments against your side simply because of your attitude.

Please try to do a better job of it then. And while you are at it try to take the attitude you think I have about this topic and compare it to the attitude to actually do have about REAL fighting and perhaps realize they are the same. Although I do not have the attitude you think I have.

In general, I have found people who cannot express themselves or their ideas as well as others attack the person instead of the argument when they feel they are losing the argument. Instead of worrying about my attitude, perhaps attack my argument since that is where the discussion lies.


No attachments? We have attachments so deeply ingrained in us.... try not breathing for 10 minutes and come back and post about it.

Once again you misunderstand the argument! The question is not about physical necessities of the body, but about fear and whether it is possible to transcend it or not. I have cited information wherein this is addressed in the writings of Buddhism and I have tried to explain the teachings in a contemporary manner in the hopes of making them understandable.

Within Ch'an there is no attempt to "make" others believe the teachings. Those who read the teachings, but do not understand them or practice them, are called "hearers" and are not considered ones who fully understand the teachings.

In fact the teachings are intended to be "a finger pointing the way" rather than the last word on any topic. The intention is for those who are interested to experience directly for themselves. The teachings just point where to look. It is similar to someone saying, "If you want to taste an orange, go here or there, and you will find one. Once you find it eat one! Then you can tell others of your direct experience for yourself!"

BTW, I have a history as an elite swimmer and lifeguard. I have nearly drowned a number of times. I do not panic due to oxygen debt as others do and which is a common reaction. I taught myself not to panic because I was wise enough to understand that panicking uses up valuable oxygen. It works very well thank you!:)

[Lucas]

its my opinion that peoples started with primal instincts. fighting beasts and each other based on instinctory reactions. brute primal force through dominance of genetics and circumstances. until someone began to actually study what was being done, began to learn to grow and to understand, then began to build a foundation that could then be built upon in a continually evovling fashion to get stronger and stronger through a carried tradition of this method gaining power through study and understanding. not necessarly a tradition of martial arts, yet the tradition of study.

imo all masters start and die as students.

chicken and the egg?

well unless you believe that the chicken was created by a creator exactly as it is, it was the egg first. something in that evolutionary chain had to lay an egg that would hatch into what is known as the common, current evoltionary sation, chicken.

what ever layed the egg was just close to a chicken, but not quite there. :p

maybe it could actually fly :eek:

unless you believe it was simply created, poof, then it was what ever the creator decided to create first, either the chicken or the egg.


we crawl before we walk, even though we are born with the ability to eventually run.

edit: im also of the opinion that our hunting methods evolved much earlier than our man to man combat methods.

[Ray Pina]

Mr. Scott Brown, you are a Kung Fu master! You can certainly talk the talk.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like my attachments, they are part of who I am.
I love my wife and my little girls, my family and my art.
After many years away from my lord I have recently found him again and I am very attached to him right now.
I know that many advocate freeing oneself from attachments, but that is not a path I wish to go down, again.
It is not MY way.
You see, returning back to the original topic, there are NO MASTERS, only students and we never stop learning.

[David Jamieson]

Interesting discussion.
I agree that to turn off your emotions is not what we want.
Emotions are a part of who we are but most people don’t even understand their emotions. Ask ten people what love is and you get ten different answers.

I think the heart of the matter is we need to grow as a human being. Challenge what we as a society (and so-called experts) established as being true (what love or fear is). Because whether you see it or not, there’s a lot of things that’s messed up in our society.

When we learn to understand ourselves, we can understand others. Maybe then we won’t be so fearful of so many things; things we are sometimes not even aware of. Like why we’re so easily offended and hostile (hostility is an aggressive form of fear) with someone stating their opinion.

Maybe then we can call ourselves ‘masters’.

Not because I have the strength or skills to dominate others, but because….

Nice! In my opinion, you have demonstrated depth of understanding.
Not that my opinion matters, just supporting what you say. :)



I like my attachments, they are part of who I am.
I love my wife and my little girls, my family and my art.
After many years away from my lord I have recently found him again and I am very attached to him right now.
I know that many advocate freeing oneself from attachments, but that is not a path I wish to go down, again.
It is not MY way.
You see, returning back to the original topic, there are NO MASTERS, only students and we never stop learning.

Yes! This is being human! lol :)

[Scott R. Brown]

I like my attachments, they are part of who I am.
I love my wife and my little girls, my family and my art.
After many years away from my lord I have recently found him again and I am very attached to him right now.
I know that many advocate freeing oneself from attachments, but that is not a path I wish to go down, again

I respect that and think there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of it. I am not arguing that anyone "should" be free of attachments or not. I was just bringing a different perspective on the topic of fear.

[SPJ]

what came first?

your health comes first.

learning or learning to master a skill is a journey.

sometimes most of the fun is on the way/journey.

destination is only a stop or milestone we subjectively placed or marked.--

nissan commercial

life is a journey, enjoy the ride whether it is honda or chevy.

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

I respect that and think there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of it. I am not arguing that anyone "should" be free of attachments or not. I was just bringing a different perspective on the topic of fear.

I know, and that is what is great about internet discussion forums, we can argue different POV and its all good :)

[Lucas]

I know, and that is what is great about internet discussion forums, we can argue different POV and its all good :)

no its not, its never all good. your wrong im right.

:cool: :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

no its not, its never all good. your wrong im right.

:cool: :p

http://www.demotivationalposters1.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/jailbait-demotivational-poster.jpg

[Lucas]

http://www.demotivationalposters1.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/jailbait-demotivational-poster.jpg

How do you know so much about me?!?!?

[Ray Pina]

I like my attachments, they are part of who I am.
I love my wife and my little girls, my family and my art.
After many years away from my lord I have recently found him again and I am very attached to him right now.
I know that many advocate freeing oneself from attachments, but that is not a path I wish to go down, again.
It is not MY way.
You see, returning back to the original topic, there are NO MASTERS, only students and we never stop learning.

I'm close to this way. I have freed myself from many fears, insecurities and what many consider "necessities" ... I don't own a TV. But there are things I've come to enjoy like good cannabis, good books, good waves, women and certain foods. I don't need them, but they're plentiful. If anything, that is my way.... of recognizing the bountifulness of this existence. If you are right within the external things don't matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm close to this way. I have freed myself from many fears, insecurities and what many consider "necessities" ... I don't own a TV. But there are things I've come to enjoy like good cannabis, good books, good waves, women and certain foods. I don't need them, but they're plentiful. If anything, that is my way.... of recognizing the bountifulness of this existence. If you are right within the external things don't matter.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2IcIq_OTlfc/Sfc94bYHUyI/AAAAAAAAAVA/yQP1HwJF3uI/s400/w163801960.jpg

[Ray Pina]

mmmmm...... dale chica.

[goju]

i see you guys like your women to not have attractive faces lol:D

[dirtyrat]

I like my attachments, they are part of who I am.
I love my wife and my little girls, my family and my art.
After many years away from my lord I have recently found him again and I am very attached to him right now.
I know that many advocate freeing oneself from attachments, but that is not a path I wish to go down, again.
It is not MY way.
You see, returning back to the original topic, there are NO MASTERS, only students and we never stop learning.

I'm no buddhist & I'm no expert on buddhism. Here's my take on attachment. There's nothing wrong with loving your family, but as they say, "the Good Lord giveth, the Good Lord taketh." If the day should come when a loved one or something dear to me is loss, I'll grieve for a time. But will I be so attached that I cannot except that mortality is very much a part of the existence that defines us? Will my heart break? Will I dwell in the past? Or will I learn to accept death and loss, and learn to cherish what I have in the here and now?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm no buddhist & I'm no expert on buddhism. Here's my take on attachment. There's nothing wrong with loving your family, but as they say, "the Good Lord giveth, the Good Lord taketh." If the day should come when a loved one or something dear to me is loss, I'll grieve for a time. But will I be so attached that I cannot except that mortality is very much a part of the existence that defines us? Will my heart break? Will I dwell in the past? Or will I learn to accept death and loss, and learn to cherish what I have in the here and now?

The fact that we know we WILL lose all our "attachments" is NOT a reason to abstain from them, but all the more reason to love them as much as we can while we still have them.
I am not, of course, speaking of material goods.

[Ray Pina]

"the Good Lord giveth, the Good Lord taketh." If the day should come when a loved one or something dear to me is loss, I'll grieve for a time. But will I be so attached that I cannot except that mortality is very much a part of the existence that defines us? Will my heart break? Will I dwell in the past? Or will I learn to accept death and loss, and learn to cherish what I have in the here and now?

I learned this lesson when my mother died when she was 37! From cancer!

Learned real quick like can be short. It can change dramatically over night..... live free then die.

[David Jamieson]

i see you guys like your women to not have attractive faces lol:D

meh, you can't tell in a doggy style position anyway. :p

you like em fat with a good smile? :D

[goju]

meh, you can't tell in a doggy style position anyway. :p

you like em fat with a good smile? :D

i like em cheap and french lol:D

[uki]

meh, you can't tell in a doggy style position anyway.

you like em fat with a good smile?as i have heard around the mason supply yard... beauty is but a light switch away. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

as i have heard around the mason supply yard... beauty is but a light switch away. :D

You plug in your inflatable doll?
dude, that could be dangerous.

[uki]

You plug in your inflatable doll?
dude, that could be dangerous.LOL... just don't bite her tit, she might f@rt and fly out the window! :p

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm no buddhist & I'm no expert on buddhism. Here's my take on attachment. There's nothing wrong with loving your family, but as they say, "the Good Lord giveth, the Good Lord taketh." If the day should come when a loved one or something dear to me is loss, I'll grieve for a time. But will I be so attached that I cannot except that mortality is very much a part of the existence that defines us? Will my heart break? Will I dwell in the past? Or will I learn to accept death and loss, and learn to cherish what I have in the here and now?


The fact that we know we WILL lose all our "attachments" is NOT a reason to abstain from them, but all the more reason to love them as much as we can while we still have them.
I am not, of course, speaking of material goods.

For myself I consider it a matter of, "Do I rule my attachments, or do they rule me!":)