Jumping jacks

[Mr Punch]

Read something somewhere about them being bad for you in some way. Er. Anybody any ideas?

Do you do them?

Do you think they're good or bad, and why?

[Oso]

if jumping jacks are bad for you then just about everything we do is bad for you.


i'd have to say that they must be referring to if you do like 600 of them or something...but 600 reps of anything is kinda silly.

100 jj's as part of a class warmup should be fine.

[Mr Punch]

Nah, it was something I read about the neuromuscular connections you reinforce actually buggering up your coordination and balance...

[Oso]

really? seems odd, but i'm not a professional.

i've done all sorts of light plyo type exercises, as we all have...to me, JJ's fall into that category.

for the last 8 years, I've had my students doing a very tight, quick JJ where the feet only move a little bit out side of shoulder width and the arms are not out at full extension but held closer to the body in basically a guarding type position that moves from close to the chest and front of face to a high block type of position.

so, fwiw, no big flailing movements with the arms and quick, quick feet.

it was also a fairly easily attainable goal for beginning students to try and get 100 of those in 60 seconds.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I have that book The Science Of Martial Art Training and they have jumping jacks under questionable or non productive exercises. On jumping jacks it basically says the only true benefit is it raises your heart rate. The time spent doing jumping jacks could be used more wise. Other exercises mentioned as questionable or non productive push ups, sit ups, lying leg scissors, static stretches, duck walking. I have been in a number of schools and every instructor incorporates them. My believe is any exercises is good for you as long as you don't push your self to injury. The book author is Charles Staley, mss pages 133&134.

The thing about these kind of studies is they do not take into account the fact that the human body varies from person to person in response to exercise. What may work well for one person may not work for another. Also, any book that questions the productivity of push ups is questionable at best:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

I've done them for years and years with no ill effect, so, I can't support the findings of that study through validation via my own experiences.

Not to say that is true for everyone.

I think Jumping Jacks would be difficult and possibly not good for someone who is obese for instance, but for someone who is relatively fit and not completely overweight, they are beneficial light plyo and cardio-vascular work to be used in a warm up.

[Scott R. Brown]

It is hard to believe that jumping jacks are bad, but jumping rope is good.

BTW, Jumping Jacks, I think, were invented by Jack LaLanne!

[taai gihk yahn]

jumping jacks were invented by Satan; if you do them, you will become his minion and writhe in the eternal fires of Perdition;

[Scott R. Brown]

jumping jacks were invented by Satan; if you do them, you will become his minion and writhe in the eternal fires of Perdition;

Ahhhh...that explains your appellation: "Christian F***ING Jurak!!!"

[taai gihk yahn]

that explains your appellation
no, this happened in art class, not while mountain climbing :confused:

- CFJ

[Mr Punch]

From here. (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch12.html)


A general warm-up should start with a few minutes of aerobic activity—for example, jogging, shadowboxing, or any exercise or game having a similar effect on the cardiovascular system. The one exception: Don't do jumping jacks.

Why not jumping jacks? Because there is no technique in sports that is similar to and can be improved by doing jumping jacks, but what is more important jumping jacks can neurologically disorganize a person (Diamond 1979). Jumping jacks, even for normal persons, can cause regression to an out-of-sync, ****lateral pattern of locomotion (left arm swings forward with the left leg, right arm with right leg) and “a vague feeling of confusion” (Diamond 1979).1 An instructor who makes athletes do jumping jacks shows ignorance of exercise physiology, proper methods of training, and pedagogy. Jumping jacks raise the blood level of lactate before the main part of the workout and they are not a lead-up exercise for any technique.


1 The normal pattern of locomotion is heterolateral (left leg and right arm forward). Normal babies, when they first begin to crawl, move in a ****lateral pattern (left leg and left arm forward), and as they achieve a higher level of neurological development, progress to a heterolateral pattern. Many children with neurological problems, especially speech and reading difficulties, either have not progressed from a ****lateral locomotion pattern to the heterolateral pattern or have regressed to a ****lateral pattern typical of more primitive neurological organization. Similar regression occurs in people who are under constant stress. In well people such regression, accompanied by a feeling of confusion, can be caused by a ****lateral gait and by other nonheterolateral movements such as bicycling, rowing, weight-pulling or weight lifting, with both arms and especially by jumping jacks. Exercises that use either one limb at a time or use opposite arms and legs do not have this disorganizing effect (Diamond 1979).

So there you go David, you could have been a Nobel physics prize winner if you hadn't have been retarding yourself with all those jumping jacks! Still, it explains a lot of your posts... :p :D

[taai gihk yahn]

wellllll.....

I don't know - I think that you'd have to be pretty neurologically challenged to begin with to have jumping jacks disorient you to the point where you regress to a non-oppositional locomotor pattern! the other thing is that jumping jacks occur in the frontal plane, they do engage the postural system in the same way gait or throwing a ball does (classic example of contralateral patterns) - so if they don't contribute positively to improving sport-specific (contralateral) function, how they could spill over neurologically to disrupt that sort of pattern also seems a bit of a stretch - I'd have to see the original research though to see what the methodological parameters were, including what the specific evidence for regression they found;

I do agree that they aren't sport-specific - and in fact, I personally don't like them - if you wanted to do something like that, I would do more of a contralateral switching pattern myself...but that's just me...

[TenTigers]

we do stance changes instead. Accomplishes the goal of warming up, but is directly applicable. I then add variations, such as bringing the knees up higher, moving forward and back.etc.

[Mr Punch]

I do agree that they aren't sport-specific ...That's my basic gripe.

Like you TT, I prefer stance changes as warm-ups.

[Oso]

interesting...but...isn't martial arts about making your body do what you intend it to do?

so, training odd patterns and getting them correct demonstrates the ability for you conscious mind to control your body exactly as you wish it to move.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Even people with degrees in exercise physiology can be wrong. There are times when you have to find out for yourself.

I have done four count jumping jacks in the past and to very good effect. But let me give you the details on how they were done:

Standing Position

1- Jump out into a horse stance*, arms stretched out

2- Jump Legs together arms up

3- Jump out into horse stance, arms stretched out

4- Jump legs together, arms done

Do 2 Sets of 50-100 repetitions. Can be done with a weighted vest (START LIGHT).

This should be done on matting to reduce shock to the bones and encourage maximal fiber recruitment in the legs. The matting should not be so thick so as to minimize the actions of the calves.

The benefits:

1- Improved leg strength

2- Improved leg endurance

3- Lightness of body in movement from one stance to another. You will run up stairs like they were never there.

Prerequisite: Good strong stance foundation. This is NOT for beginners.

Unlike the conventional jumping jack, the emphasis is an getting through the transitions smoothly and softly. The major bounce through movement only evolves later when your strength improves. The bounce is full physical coordination and not a slight muscular pulse.

*My horse stance was done with the thighs forming a 90 to 120 degree angle to the crotch, with the knees and feet vectoring the same outward line as the thighs.

This four count exercise is similar to some stuff found on ballet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wgj-wwGWxY


Enjoy,

mickey

[Frost]

but should the general warm up be sports specific? surely as long as the warm up increases blood flow, raises core body temperature and gets the body ready for the main part of the warm up it is serving its purpose?

[Oso]

yea, krist, this is almost as bad as the main forum...

Mr. Punch, stop being a pansy ass and just do the jumping jacks, mkay?


;)

[Kevin73]

Nah, it was something I read about the neuromuscular connections you reinforce actually buggering up your coordination and balance...

The body works by cross connecting it's movements. One of the things that therapists do to re-establish neuro connections is having a patient raise up their left knee and then in an exagerated motion touch the knee with their right hand. This motion is called a "Cross crawl" after how neuromuscular patterns are established in babies crawling. Forward to walking...the motion is still crossbody where as one leg moves forward the other hand moves forward. The body has no natural motion where both sides move forward at the same time.

Now, get a young kid around 4-5 years old and try to get them to do jumping jacks. Most of them will have trouble doing them and it takes a lot of work to get them to do the motion because it is not natural and goes against their neuro programming. The reason is that cross body motions activate and utilize the corpus collosum(sp?), which is the tissues that connect both sides of the brain and allow you to use both sides better, which in turns makes the brain better overall in it's development.

People working in the field of proprioception and neuromuscular things will recommend if you are going to do jumping jacks to swith them up a little bit to make them more neuro friendly. Instead of the normal way of doing them, you would reverse the motions so that as the feet go out the hands come down and as the feet go in, they hands go out. This matches the bodies natural neuro patterns better.

If you have lots of other activities that use the cross motion then doing jumping jacks once in a while is not going to "hurt you" since the connections are already made. But, it is not the most beneficial activity for really doing anything.

[taai gihk yahn]

The body works by cross connecting it's movements. One of the things that therapists do to re-establish neuro connections is having a patient raise up their left knee and then in an exagerated motion touch the knee with their right hand. This motion is called a "Cross crawl" after how neuromuscular patterns are established in babies crawling. Forward to walking...the motion is still crossbody where as one leg moves forward the other hand moves forward.
the only wrench in the machine is that there are many therapists who do not do cross crawl or anything even remotely similar, and get just as good results with patients as those who do, indicating that it is not necessarily a more powerful technique just because it engages crossing of midline;
as far as _restablishing neuro connections, that is debatable - plasticity often will take existing pathways and use them for different thing s as opposed to re-establishing old ones that have lost due to some reason - but I'd have to see the current research on that to be sure


The body has no natural motion where both sides move forward at the same time.
this is loaded with assumptions; first, define "natural"; if you want to argue natural versus unnatural, you get into a whole bog of operational assumptions that may or may be not be shared by someone else - any movement the body can make, without causing disrution of tissue, I would say, is "natural"; second, in a functional context, e.g. - environmentally specific, such as one's home or job, you may have to do exactly that sort of movement: for example, when you get in and out of a car, you do that; when you shuffle forward and throw a lead hand jab, you do that; when you fence, you do that; when you have to move between objects that are narrowly space, you do that; if you were edging along a narrow trail on the side of a cliff, you would do that;


Now, get a young kid around 4-5 years old and try to get them to do jumping jacks. Most of them will have trouble doing them and it takes a lot of work to get them to do the motion because it is not natural and goes against their neuro programming.
by the time a typical kid is 5, IMPE, he / she usually has no trouble doing a jumping jack; many can do it by 4; in fact, developmentally, kids typically can do same side, non-oppositional movement well before contralateral stuff - for example, on the Bruininks-Oseretsky Test of Motor Performance, there is a trail where the kid switches sides ipsilaterally (same arm / leg), and then contra-laterally (opposite); the same side switch is considered more primitive and easier, and in fact most kids even up to age ~9 or so (IMPE) have no problem w/the former and a much harder time with the latter, often regressing to the same-side movement when they can't figure out the opposite side one; by your logic, they should have any easier time with the opposite, since it's "natural"


The reason is that cross body motions activate and utilize the corpus collosum(sp?), which is the tissues that connect both sides of the brain and allow you to use both sides better, which in turns makes the brain better overall in it's development.
again, a big assumption - for example, plenty of people who never crawled as babies do just fine with their brains, as well or better than people who did crawl; and then there are cases of just the opposite; also, people who were born without a corpus collosum seem to due pretty much just as well without one in terms of brain function - it's one of those surprising things that gets noted in a neuroanatomy lecture by the prof, because you would think it would result in major functional deficit, which it does not; also, a lot of the crossover connections occur in the spinal cord, not just in the mid-brain so it's not all about corpus collosum (I am a a bit rusty on my neuro anat, to be sure, so I would have to go look up the exact pathways that do this)


People working in the field of proprioception and neuromuscular things will recommend if you are going to do jumping jacks to swith them up a little bit to make them more neuro friendly. Instead of the normal way of doing them, you would reverse the motions so that as the feet go out the hands come down and as the feet go in, they hands go out. This matches the bodies natural neuro patterns better.
again, this is not necessarily the case, but it does reflect the belief systems of certain schools of thought (e.g. - Bobath / NDT and PNF); and in fact, those that would recommend it are vastly in the minority, IMPE;


If you have lots of other activities that use the cross motion then doing jumping jacks once in a while is not going to "hurt you" since the connections are already made. But, it is not the most beneficial activity for really doing anything.
again, determining "benefit" is a highly subjective exercise, and is highly relative to the situation, person, etc.; so from person to person, what is benefit changes, unless you design a study where one has objectively documented outcomes based on standardized protocols (which can be quite difficult to design properly); then, you would have to compare jumping jacks to other types of activity and then see the results on pre-determined outcome measures in order to say that definitively; otherwise, it's theoretical or anecdotal at best; which is, of course, fine - research studies are one sort of useful tool, they are certainly not the end-all, be-all - but what they do enable you to do is generalize beyond one's own subjective perspective; and when dealing with subjective personal clinical experience, as long as one can provide anecdotal evidence for a variety of seemingly contradictory eventualities, then no one particular view is more valid than the other; so one can have a particular viewpoint, and one can propagate it and demonstrate how in their personal experience it is "beneficial", but to say that this viewpoint holds true across the board over another one derived in the same manner, is specious at best, and disingenuous at worst;

[Lucas]

i hate jumping jacks :D

id prefer to jump rope or just do a form

[taai gihk yahn]

i hate jumping jacks :D
Taliban-lover...

[Lucas]

man everywhere i go nowdays i find you jumping jack elitists

[David Jamieson]

Taliban-lover...

I think it goes further than that. He may very well be a full blown terrorist with his jumping jack hating ways.

I mean, it is quite clear that jumping jacks and general calisthenics are hated in those types of social groups.

even when we in the west try to reform them and shape them into the good guys, they still resist the jumping jack as demonstrated here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxOTV_3ohxk

It is how you shall know them!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you want to maximize the time you do MA related moves, when you have a minimal of time to work out, you make the "warm-up" and intricate part of the workout by starting the prescibed moves and slowly increasing range and speed till you are doing the moves as fast and as forceful as you can.
No need for generalized warm-up UNLESS you have the time and want to do it that way.
Jumping jacks are pointless for a MA, but if you like doing them, knock yourself out biotch !

[David Jamieson]

jumping jacks and switch stepping are one of the quickest ways to raise your heart rate. At least that I have found.

Loosen the joints, raise the breath and heart rate, do your workout. That's how I do it. I don't want to blow all my energy warming up. A little goes a long way if you do the right things.

So yeah, I WILL do those jumping jacks thanks! :-)

[Lucas]

I think it goes further than that. He may very well be a full blown terrorist with his jumping jack hating ways.

I mean, it is quite clear that jumping jacks and general calisthenics are hated in those types of social groups.

even when we in the west try to reform them and shape them into the good guys, they still resist the jumping jack as demonstrated here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxOTV_3ohxk

It is how you shall know them!!

every jumping jack i thwart, is an extra virgin in the afterlife for me

[sanjuro_ronin]

every jumping jack i thwart, is an extra virgin in the afterlife for me

Jumping jack virgin:
http://www.hollywoodtuna.com/images2/jacks_jump_small.jpg

[Lucas]

ya, i 'thwarted' that one this past weekend. how are you getting a camera into my back yard desert training area?

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya, i 'thwarted' that one this past weekend. how are you getting a camera into my back yard desert training area?

:D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/2754053235_d94ae1c6d0.jpg

[Lucas]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3100/2754053235_d94ae1c6d0.jpg

rofl!!!

i knew it was the ****ed sand ninjas, i just knew it! i need to fire that gardener who said they were just 'big goffers"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, don't mess with gophers !!
http://www.freewebs.com/damacespage/4_attack_gopher.jpg

[Kevin73]

the only wrench in the machine is that there are many therapists who do not do cross crawl or anything even remotely similar, and get just as good results with patients as those who do, indicating that it is not necessarily a more powerful technique just because it engages crossing of midline;
as far as _restablishing neuro connections, that is debatable - plasticity often will take existing pathways and use them for different thing s as opposed to re-establishing old ones that have lost due to some reason - but I'd have to see the current research on that to be sure


this is loaded with assumptions; first, define "natural"; if you want to argue natural versus unnatural, you get into a whole bog of operational assumptions that may or may be not be shared by someone else - any movement the body can make, without causing disrution of tissue, I would say, is "natural"; second, in a functional context, e.g. - environmentally specific, such as one's home or job, you may have to do exactly that sort of movement: for example, when you get in and out of a car, you do that; when you shuffle forward and throw a lead hand jab, you do that; when you fence, you do that; when you have to move between objects that are narrowly space, you do that; if you were edging along a narrow trail on the side of a cliff, you would do that;





The original poster asked for why jumping jacks "were bad". I gave those reasons in the medical field of why. Like most things in the body, doctors will disagree and it isn't 100%.

As to the "natural movement" you failed to provide a single example of a case where the body does that. When you get in or out of a car, you use one leg and an arm for balance it isn't using both the arm and the leg in conjunction like a jumping jack. and as far as walking on a cliff again, this is lateral motion for the legs and the arms are not moving in conjunction to move the body, the upper body is still and the lower body is isolated for the movement. Throwing a lead jab and shuffling is a learned movement, untrained people do not do that movement. They step with their weak side and throw a big haymaker with their power side, any other type of punch is a learned behavior.

[taai gihk yahn]

The original poster asked for why jumping jacks "were bad". I gave those reasons in the medical field of why.
are you in the medical field?


Like most things in the body, doctors will disagree and it isn't 100%.
when you stated your answers originally, you did not qualify them in this way; as such, someone might be inclined to believe that what you are stating is not open to disagreement, especially someone without specialized knowledge in that field; so the reasons you gave are not necessarily based on objective data, and therefore cannot really be generalized with a high degree of confidence;


As to the "natural movement" you failed to provide a single example of a case where the body does that. When you get in or out of a car, you use one leg and an arm for balance it isn't using both the arm and the leg in conjunction like a jumping jack. and as far as walking on a cliff again, this is lateral motion for the legs and the arms are not moving in conjunction to move the body, the upper body is still and the lower body is isolated for the movement. Throwing a lead jab and shuffling is a learned movement, untrained people do not do that movement. They step with their weak side and throw a big haymaker with their power side, any other type of punch is a learned behavior.

ok, so, you originally said this:

The body has no natural motion where both sides move forward at the same time.
now, I initially interpreted that as describing unilateral forward movement of the ipsilateral lower and upper extremity, but upon reappraisal it appears that I may have misunderstood exactly what you intended to illustrate; perhaps you meant that there is no movement where both arms and legs move forward together at the same time? well, if so, I'd say first that you have described a broad jump; second, the above is certainly not describing a jumping jack - for that, you have simultaneous frontal plane motions of abduction and adduction, there is no forward movement; third, the movements I described earlier, though not perhaps fitting what you intended to describe, still are ones where you have movement that is not contralateral, but still functional - and if you want to call that "unnatural", I strongly disagree with that as a descriptor; now, if you want to say it is less complex movement, I would agree, because crossing midline is more difficult to do than not; but saying it's unnatural is a highly subjective and ultimately imprecise term;

[Oso]

doesn't the basic 'jab' move the arm and the leg on the same side of the body forward at essentially the same time???

i think so.

end of debate.

[taai gihk yahn]

doesn't the basic 'jab' move the arm and the leg on the same side of the body forward at essentially the same time???

i think so.

end of debate.

yes, but he dismissed it as evidence of ipsilateral motion being functional, based on the claim that it was a consciously "learned" movement as opposed to one that was acquired intuitively (like walking), suggesting perhaps that his criteria for "natural" is based on what one does instinctively versus by design? of course, one has to wonder then, where the first person who ever threw a lead hand jab got the idea from...

[Oso]

i still say it's all irrelevent because the point of learning any martial art is to do something the other guy isn't ready for or hasn't seen...OF COURSE we are doing stuff that isn't natural...

[TenTigers]

yeah, and nevermind that guys like me, at 52, have been doing jumping jacks since childhood, with no ill effects.

[Kevin73]

are you in the medical field?


when you stated your answers originally, you did not qualify them in this way; as such, someone might be inclined to believe that what you are stating is not open to disagreement, especially someone without specialized knowledge in that field; so the reasons you gave are not necessarily based on objective data, and therefore cannot really be generalized with a high degree of confidence;



ok, so, you originally said this:

now, I initially interpreted that as describing unilateral forward movement of the ipsilateral lower and upper extremity, but upon reappraisal it appears that I may have misunderstood exactly what you intended to illustrate; perhaps you meant that there is no movement where both arms and legs move forward together at the same time? well, if so, I'd say first that you have described a broad jump; second, the above is certainly not describing a jumping jack - for that, you have simultaneous frontal plane motions of abduction and adduction, there is no forward movement; third, the movements I described earlier, though not perhaps fitting what you intended to describe, still are ones where you have movement that is not contralateral, but still functional - and if you want to call that "unnatural", I strongly disagree with that as a descriptor; now, if you want to say it is less complex movement, I would agree, because crossing midline is more difficult to do than not; but saying it's unnatural is a highly subjective and ultimately imprecise term;

Very limited medical training, and went down a different career path instead. I should have prefaced my first post with the disclaimer that the people who think jumping jacks are bad, think they are bad for these reasons. Also, with the add-on of that it was not something agreed upon in the medical community.

The body is designed to biomechanically work a certain way, there are MANY things we CAN DO, but that does not mean that it is the most efficient use of the body. I discussed both forward locomotion and lateral locomotion of the body to show that it does not move in the way of the jumping jack for anything it is required to do (push ups for example of another exercise that was given questionable status mimics pushing movements that the body uses).

I never said a jab was not functional, nor effective and we were not discussing movements learned in a martial art to be applied in combat (although there are several that will harm the body over time). We were discussing movements the body uses throughout the day to naturally function and not specific learned things we force the body to perform because we have to (ie: jumping jacks). A broadjump STILL does not fit into the category because when you broad jump you are pushing off and the arms propel forward to add momentum to the jump. You don't swing one leg and one arm forward to jump. That being said, I was wrong when I said that the body does not have a natural movement, in which, one leg moves forward along with an arm. When you go to reach out for something you step with the side you are reaching for.

[monkey mind]

Disorientation & neurological regression? Sounds like I might have to look into recreational jumping jacking. A nice legal, cheap alternative.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is all insanity. Jumping Jacks are a simple warm up exercise that increases blood flow to the arms and legs as well as increasing the heart rate. It has been a part of just about every physical education program for a hundred years. It don't make you run backwards or trip on your own feet. It might not be considered a strength exercise, but it has it's benefits. It doesn't have to be a stepping or punching exercise in order to benefit you. Fat people have a problem with it because when all that fat starts jumping around it can indeed make you fumble around and fall. The jell-o effect can actually jerk you clean off your feet.