martial ARTIST vs MARTIAL artist

[ChinaBoxer]

Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.

so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.

and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

take care and peace!

Jin

[dirtyrat]

Well said, Jin

[AdrianK]

I agree that many people focus too much on the Martial side.

Now, martial arts were created for war, for killing. What I mean isn't that we *shouldnt* focus on the martial side, or that its not for the most part, the essence of many arts. But more that I've seen plenty of people training day in and day out simply because they genuinely believe that they're going to become some kind of super hero, soldier, or renowned street fighter.

Many people live in that delusion and use martial arts simply to pump up their ego, to give validation to what they probably already believed in the first place, that they're unbeatable street fighters who need to protect their honor and safeguard the weak or any variation of such craziness.

Martial ARTIST or MARTIAL Artist, I believe there is no either or. You train martial arts to protect something - Yourself, your family, etc, and in turn, your training develops you as a person, inside and out.

Of course, plenty of people forsake the latter portion. And plenty of people forsake the former portion. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

For myself, anyways.

Keep in mind that you'll never know when war will break out, or when you might have to use your skills to protect yourself in your home. The optimal weapons wouldn't be your hands or feet, but firearms and such.. of course, MARTIAL arts is a great way to not only support real war skills in the event your first(firearms) and secondary(knives, bats, etc.) defenses are compromised, but they also offer plenty of skills you'd use in combat with those, such as breathing, maintaining your composure, strategy, and the physical stamina you need in those situations.

[Wayfaring]

I think the words "martial artist" are an oxymoron. You wind up with people that accomplish neither. Too "artsy" to fight effectively, and too "meatheaded" to see beauty in anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that before one can even contemplate the artist part of MA, one most first become proficient in the MARTIAL part.

[bennyvt]

martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don't. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don't. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.

I think that is the whole point of Martial ART, the art part IS subjective, not the martial though.
At least it shouldn't be.
What we view as artistic is personal, that part of MA should be just that, a personal expression of the martial.
A MA shoudl be someone that has his/her personal expression (art) of fighting (martial).
The term science tends to denote a certain set of rules set in stone, there isn't much "personal experssion" in science, just "cold hard facts", which I think is GREAT at the initial stages of combat training.
After that Martial science should change to martial art.

[bennyvt]

the rules are who wins is normally the better. Does it pass the test? This is the important thing. You can express yourself but if you suck, you just suck. You can test your style or ability, how do you test art. Vt is not an art, just a set of tools that you use. Difference between an artist designing a house and an architect. One uses a set of rules and the house stays up. One makes it look really nice and it collapses.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the rules are who wins is normally the better. Does it pass the test? This is the important thing. You can express yourself but if you suck, you just suck. You can test your style or ability, how do you test art. Vt is not an art, just a set of tools that you use. Difference between an artist designing a house and an architect. One uses a set of rules and the house stays up. One makes it look really nice and it collapses.

I don't think I got my point across...
To use your analogy:
A true MA would start off as an architect before he becomes an artist.

[uki]

a bit of creativity always paves the way to destruction...

[bennyvt]

yeh i get it and sort of agree. Its just that art is anything and every thing, it can be made by man or a sun rise depending on the individual. It can mean many things to different people. Expressionists can't show how they are better then the art new voue (sp?) guys.

[chusauli]

Some of us are "MARTIAL ARTISTS" as opposed to "MARTIAL artists" or "martial ARTISTS". The first one denotes a balance and respect for martial skills as well as culture, life, health, the second is the fighter, but can also be the extreme meathead, the third is the Wushu dancer. Yes, WCK dudes, you know what you are... :)

Martial arts is not "Wu Yi" in Chinese; so WSL was wrong. We call it "Wu Shu/Mo Shut", in which "Wu/Mo" is "to stop conflict", and "Shu/Shut" is "Science", "the study of" or loosely, "art".

I think sometimes things are confused when it comes to some of WSL's translations...they, get a little too macho... just like his statement "There is no Qi" - which is correct - you don't win with Qi...but he was an exponent of Chinese medicine and knew we are speaking metaphorically for the phonemenom of the body's actions.

Please don't get me wrong...I certainly respected Si Bak WSL, just a lot of his things were taken out of context.

[m1k3]

ChinaBoxer, interesting post and well as the replies from everyone so far. My take on this is somewhat different from any I have read so far. Martial Arts for me are not so much about martial or arts but is more about fulfilling something that is missing for me in modern society. Its about self discipline and having an arena in which to test ones self. It is a chance to return to the primitive and to get in touch with your inner hunter or warrior. To sweat, to earn the respect of your peers, to become part of a pack but in a constructive manner. It is a chance to exorcise many of the demons that build up in a modern polite society where physical struggle is frowned upon. It is a chance to get in touch with that part of yourself which essential for survival for millions of years but is now relegated to the background.

Hope this makes sense.:)

[dirtyrat]

Most martial arts teaches martial skills that are irrelevant and obsolete for today's needs. No one needs to learn sword or staff/spear skills.

Even certain unarmed fighting skills taught today that were relevant in the past but are no longer applicable today. Some kung fu teachers said that most kung fu styles were designed to fight against other kung fu systems. So it had to be modified a bit to be useful against say, muay thai.

If people are really serious about the martial side, then the focus should be place on developing skills that fits modern needs for self-defense. Like learning how to use a gun. Knife and club skills are still relevant. Grappling is always useful. Most classes in many schools don't even touch the subject.

If you're drawn to a martial art that does not address today self-defense needs, than why study it? martial vs art.

[chusauli]

That's a strictly practical point of view. Alll arts inherently have their use, even some of it will be practiced for aesthetics and enjoyment. All have their uses in some way. Even so called posturing in Karate or beautiful poses in Chinese martial arts have some situational application...as a MARTIAL ARTIST, you should look for it.

[dirtyrat]

Exactly my point. For those who say they practice MA strictly for martial reasons, I submit that many systems have "holes" in their game when it comes to modern self-defense needs.

I believe arts like WC have their value that goes beyond a strictly martial sense. Its enjoyable to say the least and as a tool for self-development, its priceless IMHO.

Oh yeah, and the skills developed are cool too.:cool:

[uki]

Most martial arts teaches martial skills that are irrelevant and obsolete for today's needs. No one needs to learn sword or staff/spear skills.

Even certain unarmed fighting skills taught today that were relevant in the past but are no longer applicable today. Some kung fu teachers said that most kung fu styles were designed to fight against other kung fu systems. So it had to be modified a bit to be useful against say, muay thai.

If people are really serious about the martial side, then the focus should be place on developing skills that fits modern needs for self-defense. Like learning how to use a gun. Knife and club skills are still relevant. Grappling is always useful. Most classes in many schools don't even touch the subject.

If you're drawn to a martial art that does not address today self-defense needs, than why study it? martial vs art.the only flaw with this mindset is taking for granted the world we live in... einstein was once asked if ww3 would be fought with atomic weapons, his reply was, "i cannot tell you what ww3 will be fought with, but ww4 will be fought with sticks and stones." sword and staff training is useful for developing technique with instruments of similar shapes... brooms, shovels, bats, and the like can all readily be utilized in a self defense situation... i believe it is relevant to practice with all weapons in order to be a more well rounded martial artist, because the world we live in could turn upside down at any moment... ignorance is not bliss - just because society is the way it is today, does not mean it will still be the same tomorrow. :)

[dirtyrat]

the only flaw with this mindset is taking for granted the world we live in... einstein was once asked if ww3 would be fought with atomic weapons, his reply was, "i cannot tell you what ww3 will be fought with, but ww4 will be fought with sticks and stones." sword and staff training is useful for developing technique with instruments of similar shapes... brooms, shovels, bats, and the like can all readily be utilized in a self defense situation... i believe it is relevant to practice with all weapons in order to be a more well rounded martial artist, because the world we live in could turn upside down at any moment... ignorance is not bliss - just because society is the way it is today, does not mean it will still be the same tomorrow. :)

ooooo-kay.... :p

[bennyvt]

i got those sayings from the wall on our school. I think ill take barry's translations over others, no offence.

[bennyvt]

wsl point was fighting is not dependant on what people think. Except in matches with judges the person who wins is the guy that stopped the other guy. If you look good to others around you doesn't matter. Art is decided on whether people think its art. Like the piece of toast or the child that does massive squiggles that her parents and others class as art. Wsl didn't case about what wu sit or kung fu translated into he meant that vt is a system of combat. Ask a boxes if he is an artist, or an sas and he would laugh. When i used to go out and get into fights my mates said i should do something like copoiera (sp?) because although i was starting to who they thought it didnt look good. I said i would rather look bad and who then look good and get smashed.

[bawang]

i find it very funny in china every one tells me wingchun focuses on real fighting and i come to western world and people always talk about finding something deep or artistic or spiritual in this fighting style made by guangdong boat robbers
lol

[CFT]

Didn't WSL call VT "Wing Chun/Ving Tsun Kuen Hok"? "Hok" as in "the study of"?

[bennyvt]

yes he did. Thats why sifu au yeung (cliff) calls his school a martial institute. To instill wsl's idea of it being a science. Like wsl's video ' the science of in-fighting'. I have a copy of wsl calligraphy saying 'wong shun leung ving tsun kuen hok'.

[Lindley]

Jin, first of all, welcome to the forum. I have watched a couple of your videos and congratulate you on your very good instructional ability and presentation, your ability to language your ideas.

People often don't realize that all relationships have a common base. When you are squared off against an opponent, you and that person have a "relationship". I feel that martial arts has afforded me the ability to understand relationships better, whether as a fighter, a husband, a father, or a friend. To be successful in a relationship, one must understand the true meaning of commitment and trust - not far from a relationsihp with a friend, your spouse, your boss. To commit to my opponent is to offer myself 100% to complete whatever it is we are doing together. To trust my arsenal, my hands and feet, so that I do not need to think. This may sound quite abstract, but the top martial arts people, top sport athletes, experience this.

The problem with martial arts training is it has to have a starting point. What brings someone to your mo kwoon? Most of the time, the latest action star movie. It is the rare student who is looking just to "improve thei lives". Many experience this through music, through religion etc. The Mo Kwoon is also a social gathering, a belonging. Those who say lineage does not matter likely do not experience this. Because all they want to know is "how to fight".

"Kung Fu is learned, not taught". It is nothing but a collection of experiences based on some guidelines passed down from a "teacher". kung Fu is an expression of ones self. I will differ with those who find the Kung Fu techniques "outdated" or obsolete. I will differ with those who speak of weapons that have nothing to do with modern fighting. It is likely coming from those who have not experienced truly advanced levels in the kung fu or been taught in the correct manner.

My Sigung, Moy Yat, was known for his mastery of art - painting and stone. My Sifu recently retired from being a corrections officer at a maximum security prison, well known for using his ving tsun skill in real prison riots. He is truly "battle tested". I have students who have done well walking off the street in sparring tournaments with little preparation. Hence, when someone comes to learn from me my first question is "why do you want to learn kung fu?" It is my job, as the Sifu, to help them reach their goals through the martial art, not to make the martial art fit into them.

Good luck with your kung fu. If you are ever in the Philadelphia area, you are most welcome to visit our schools.

[Ng Mui]

Art is open to interpretation.

A painting that someone might praise, looks like an incoherent mess to someone else. So there is debate.

Martial artists are not open to interpretation.

Someone attempts to block a punch and fails. He lays unconscious on the ground.

Is there debate?......or excuse?

[David]

martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don't. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.

I don't know if you can escape the art, because every student expresses it differently. The day a teacher turns out clones, is the day that school goes down - some script kiddie will publish the 3 step guide to defeating them.

[iwingchun]

i think dirtyrat is right. Well done for your opinion.

[bennyvt]

carl lewis and johnson (the guy that got banned for steriods) both ran, they both had different ways of expressing that skill or style. Does this make it art or just different ways to get to the line first.

[AdrianK]

Art is open to interpretation.

A painting that someone might praise, looks like an incoherent mess to someone else. So there is debate.

Martial artists are not open to interpretation.

Someone attempts to block a punch and fails. He lays unconscious on the ground.

Is there debate?......or excuse?

Ridiculous. The interpretation isn't on the success or failure of the attempt, but the most efficient method for the practictioner.

I can show you 30 different ways to block and/or deflect a punch. Some will be more suited to a mental state or body type than others.

If you weren't so closed minded you'd take a look at boxing and see the MASSIVE amount of interpretations of something as simple as punching and blocking.

Such a statement shows a SEVERE LACK of understanding of the varying types of human bodies and personalities which would create an extreme difference in effectiveness of a given technique, idea or strategy.


****, it pains me to even have to read your nonsense.

[AdrianK]

i find it very funny in china every one tells me wingchun focuses on real fighting and i come to western world and people always talk about finding something deep or artistic or spiritual in this fighting style made by guangdong boat robbers
lol

The difference is in education.
We have far more exposure in the Western world to Art, Science and Philosophy.

The problem is we have many people who have a superficial understanding of these things and talk out of their ass about them.

But to say they don't apply to martial arts? You don't need them, to be an effective fighter. Just like you don't need to understand Physics, Geometry, Anatomy or Psychology to be an effective fighter.

But all of the above is still a very real part of martial arts.

Whether you want to further your understanding in those subjects is up to you.

To say they don't apply is sheer idiocy.

[dirtyrat]

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.


" 'cause chicks dig guys with skills. nunchuck skills, bo skills, computer hacking skills..."

[Yoshiyahu]

"Lineage in WC doesn't matter"

The Lineage, Style, System, Art or even Sifu you have is not equal to skill in fighting you obtain.

A weak non fighting person with a top pedigree lineage, battle tested sifu and great system that has multiply facets to it a waste of space


A strong well season fighter with natural ability and honed skill who has non-fighting sifu an wack lineage but can still destroy the most top fighters is what matters.


Diligent Training

Natural Ability

Experience in fighting

These three things make good fighters not the lineage or sifu....



I regress. The Term Martial Arts is not even Wing Chun term. Its not cantonese or mandrid.

The word originates from Latin the lanaguge of the romans...Meaning Arts of Mars (God of war also known as Ares). The term martial arts was first designated for european fighting styles and combat systems. Not japanese and chinese pugilism.

MARTIAL = Chinese Boxing or Pugilism is the reason WC was design. To fight and kill your enemies in short

ART = Philsopical and Religious and Cultural and Traditional ideology is what makes the art!!!



Religion: It is more than Likely that WC as an art form attributes are found in both chan buddhism and taoism!!! hint pray to buddha thrice!!!

Chi kung and meditation are other attributes to the art form in addition to its other benefits.

Other Styles of Gung fu also adhere to other Chinese religious texts like Baguazhang does to I-Ching.

But in short...WC as taught by non-buddhist in a non-temple setting is secular. Thus nullfying the art form in its entirety. The prime source of the art is derived from its religion and cultural adherence. Westerners do not adhere to Chinese culture. Nor do they conduct their lives by Taoistic precepts on a day to day basis.

The practice of Wing Chun for me is purely Combat and Offense.

WuShu and acrobats are more suited for the beauty of the art. WC is more suited for the fighting aspects...

As for any techniques that are not usable or suitable for todays fighters ie boxers, Muay Thai, BJJ guys. Well simply fight those type of fighters to learn how to adapt your Techniques to the situtation. Every Techique can be innovated to make a complete style out of alone.

The key is to take those techniques that best work for you, your body structure and your mental understanding. An apply them against others who you currently encounter today instead of fantasizing about fighting someone from ancient china in year 1403 B.C.E.


Wing Chun basis theory is about fighting. Not living your life....WC principles is about how to deal with a foe, opponent or enemy not how to drive a car or deal with your boss or job.

WC teaches you techniques and how to apply those techniques against a struggling opponent...If i want to learn morality, character, integrity or how to live a better life i will pick up a bible and read.

if I want to learn fighting strategem. i will study WC, Boxing, and Chin Na!

[nasmedicine]

Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.

so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.

and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

take care and peace!

Jin

Bravo Jin!

[nasmedicine]

"Lineage in WC doesn't matter"

The Lineage, Style, System, Art or even Sifu you have is not equal to skill in fighting you obtain.

A weak non fighting person with a top pedigree lineage, battle tested sifu and great system that has multiply facets to it a waste of space


A strong well season fighter with natural ability and honed skill who has non-fighting sifu an wack lineage but can still destroy the most top fighters is what matters.


Diligent Training

Natural Ability

Experience in fighting

These three things make good fighters not the lineage or sifu....



I regress. The Term Martial Arts is not even Wing Chun term. Its not cantonese or mandrid.

The word originates from Latin the lanaguge of the romans...Meaning Arts of Mars (God of war also known as Ares). The term martial arts was first designated for european fighting styles and combat systems. Not japanese and chinese pugilism.

MARTIAL = Chinese Boxing or Pugilism is the reason WC was design. To fight and kill your enemies in short

ART = Philsopical and Religious and Cultural and Traditional ideology is what makes the art!!!



Religion: It is more than Likely that WC as an art form attributes are found in both chan buddhism and taoism!!! hint pray to buddha thrice!!!

Chi kung and meditation are other attributes to the art form in addition to its other benefits.

Other Styles of Gung fu also adhere to other Chinese religious texts like Baguazhang does to I-Ching.

But in short...WC as taught by non-buddhist in a non-temple setting is secular. Thus nullfying the art form in its entirety. The prime source of the art is derived from its religion and cultural adherence. Westerners do not adhere to Chinese culture. Nor do they conduct their lives by Taoistic precepts on a day to day basis.

The practice of Wing Chun for me is purely Combat and Offense.

WuShu and acrobats are more suited for the beauty of the art. WC is more suited for the fighting aspects...

As for any techniques that are not usable or suitable for todays fighters ie boxers, Muay Thai, BJJ guys. Well simply fight those type of fighters to learn how to adapt your Techniques to the situtation. Every Techique can be innovated to make a complete style out of alone.

The key is to take those techniques that best work for you, your body structure and your mental understanding. An apply them against others who you currently encounter today instead of fantasizing about fighting someone from ancient china in year 1403 B.C.E.


Wing Chun basis theory is about fighting. Not living your life....WC principles is about how to deal with a foe, opponent or enemy not how to drive a car or deal with your boss or job.

WC teaches you techniques and how to apply those techniques against a struggling opponent...If i want to learn morality, character, integrity or how to live a better life i will pick up a bible and read.

if I want to learn fighting strategem. i will study WC, Boxing, and Chin Na!

Right on the money! Lineage, styles do not matter. Truth in your skill and the result of your training is what matters; whether it's internal or external, physical or mental... Truth is truth and that truth is based on how honest you are with yourself and your results.

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago I gave a demo for a local TV station. I performed a TCMA form just like all TCMA guys would do. After my demo, the TV reporter said, "Kung Fu is like dancing ..." After that day, I hated the word "ARTIST".

[nasmedicine]

A fight is like a dance with someone you just met on the dance floor however the difference is that your both trying to time the right moment to step on one another's toes all the while avoiding getting stepped on.

[nasmedicine]

" 'cause chicks dig guys with skills. nunchuck skills, bo skills, computer hacking skills..."

Great movie! :-)

[dirtyrat]

Great movie! :-)

i had to watch it twice to decide whether i liked it or not.... :D

[anerlich]

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for?

I don't regard MA as an overly expensive activity. Auto racing, sailing, polo, kite surfing, heliskiing ...

I'd prefer to be famous as a MARITAL artist ...