Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, Shaolin Pao Quan is another group of sets that are really mixed up as far as routines go.

Originally, Shaolin Quan was called Shaolin Chui, as in Hammer strikes.
There are reports that the early Shaolin material that was presented in an exhibition for the newly installed Tang Emperor consisted of some Rou Quan and Pao Chui (Soft Boxing and Cannon Hammer strikes). The Rou Quan material came from the nei gong routines of the elder Shaolin monks; the Pao Chui material came from the military advisers that were influencing Shaolin martial arts at the time.

More than likely this Pao Chui material came from the Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) that was popular along the Yellow River Basin and practiced by the Sui and Tang military.

During the later 1400s of the Ming Dynasty, thanks to Li Sou, Bai Yufeng, and Jue Yuan, Shaolin martial arts incorporated the Da Hong Quan style that these people have imported from far western China (Shaanxi and Gansu Shanxi).
Originally part of this Hong Quan system included a series of sets called Pao Chui.

During the Qing Dynasty, the Pao Chui material became practiced separately from the Hong Quan material and they started mixing in other stuff into the movements of these sets. Eventually they became their own sub-style known as Shaolin Pao Quan.
(this material had a large influence on Chen family Taiji Quan's Pao Chui sets, as well as the Pao Chui sets from the neighboring Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style).
(also, the style of Tong Bei Quan was developed from out of this Hong Quan and Pao Quan material, along with Taizu Chang Quan.)

Anyways, no two people seem to be doing their Shaolin Pao Quan sets that same way. No two schools or lineages neither. There seems to be great divergence. Researchers say this could be because the material separated a long time ago and different branches of practitioners did not communicate with each other or simply that hardly anyone had learned or remembered the full sets and they started changing them or adding in other material to supplement what was lost.

One thing that should be seen in Pao Quan / Pao Chui sets is, because of the Li Sou/ Bai Yufeng / Jue Yuan connection, some postures and movements overlapping with Shaolin Luohan Quan and also Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan.

So, here again, I am going to present whatever videos are easily available on the internet of these sets and some commentary.
Anyone who has more information about the sets, their history, and so on, please let us know, thanks.
Same as how we all did the Luohan Quan, Rou Quan, and other thread, thanks!

The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows these Pao Quan sets:
1- Shaolin Pao Quan (55 postures)
2- Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu (24 postures)
3 - Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Er Lu (29 postures)
4 - Shaolin Da Pao Chui (38 postures) - supposed was influenced by Emei Pao Chui style (does look very similar to Emei San Huang Pao Chui - Three Emperor Cannnon Hammers)

The 5 volume / revised 2 volume Dengfeng Tagou school books show two Pao Quan sets.
1 - Shaolin Xiao Pao quan (112 postures), which is the same as #1 above Shaolin Pao Quan, except it has a much longer ending section.
2 - Shaolin Da Pao Quan (31 postures)

In the VCDs released by Liu Zhenhai, he shows three Pao Quan sets that look nothing like the Xiao Pao Quan and Da Pao Quan shown in the Tagou school's books, which are the Eagle Claw Pao Quan, the Zhuo Shou Pao Quan, and a different Xiao Pao Quan.
He also has three VCDs of a Pao Quan Yi lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.

Shi deyang also does a very short Xiao Pao Chui set that looks pretty much like Da Pao Quan under closer examination. It is not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu or Er Lus ets shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

videos:

Shaolin Pao Quan from Shaolin Encyclopedia, also known as Xiao Pao Quan in Tagou books:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOuTptAkJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lev-mkcR4s (as done by Liu Jun Hai himself)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5JATHlmpEc (here it is called Lao Pao Chui - Old Cannon Hammers)

interesting version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPA7I-xlexk

Pao Quan Yi Lu set from Liu Zhenhai, IDENTICAL to Da Pao Quan set in the Tagou books:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

Pao Quan Er Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (pretty much same as Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan first section, from above):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA

Pao Quan San Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (roughly same as second section of Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan (提手炮拳 - Lifting hand cannon fist) set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

Shaolin Eagle Claw Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBe2lUtIOgQ

Shi Deyang's Xiao Pao Chui (which is basically Tagou's short Da Pao Quan set):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmn5x3fYVuo

Shaolin Pao Quan set (same as in Abbot Shi Yongxin's book), here called Da Pao Quan, first half of set, the rest is cut off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNK0ARYRwT8

Pao Quan set that is very similar to what is called Xiao Pao Quan in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (but not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan of the Tagou books):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFInayzqygI

Other:

Pao Quan set from the style of Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWqhMUh47vE

Shaanxi Hong (red) Quan - Pao Chui [陕西红拳 - 炮锤]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC1xArKobE0

Northern long fist pao quan from Shandong area jia men chang quan (islamic long fist):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9P60vuB86o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMZN7q (San Lu Pao Quan)

I will add more as I find them. Feel free to direct me to more for this list. thanks

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal

You've mixed up the names a little.

THe book from Tagou will be by 'Liu Hai Chao' not by Liu Zhen Hai. Similar names I know. Liu hai chao is the first son of liu bao shan, headmaster and founder of Tagou. He speaks good english, he wrote Tagous books. Liu hai chao does not have kung fu ability himself but he is a scholar of kung fu.

LiuZhenHai is someone else. COmes from a Dengfeng martial arts family and was a student of Degen Da shi. Liu Zhen hai is a great master and has perhaps the largest repertoire of forms of anyone ever.

This explains why their sets are different.

Thanks, I made the corrections to the text.



@PAO quan. Shaolin has many sets called Pao quan. The eagle claw pao quan is from LiuZhenHais lineage, that is probably a performance from his son. Many many styles use a form called pao quan. The pao quan in DengFeng is generaly Da pao quan. This form is rather short and insignificant. The Pao quan in Tagous books is very long, I have no idea where this comes from...

Generally what is considered as real Pao Chui is the form from WuShanLin's Lineage. This is the one with all the hammers and lots of gong bu xie xings. Usually when we talk about Pao quan we are referring to this form. The vast majority of this form now practiced in Dengfeng comes from WuShanLin. It is remarkable how much it has changed in the hands of each school.

WuShanLin's lineage is survived now by WuNanFang and SHi De Jian (who is very famous now). WuShanLin died in 1970 and most of the pao quan surviving now is 3rd hand from him at best. WuShanLin was one of Degen Da Shis Masters. He is generally considered as having the best shaolin of the last 100 years. I am very lucky in that my master SHi Yong Wen actually trained with Wushanlin himself back in 1968 and learned Pao Quan, XinYiBa and Shi Ba Dian Mei Qi Gun. However he considers all these forms as shaolins secrets and does not teach them. I have been lucky enough to see his Pao quan however. It is very similar to those I learned before.

This form is actually two forms put together to form one. As with many shaolin sets there is also a 3rd set. I have only seen a video of this. As to the extra sets by Liu Zhen Hai they are a different pao quan, shaolin has many (the first set he does is the same however). The pao quan we are referring to was returned to shaolin by Wushanlin.

On an interesting note Pao quan follows the symmetry of xiao hong quan closely, as if it were created with xiao hong quan as a template. You will have to practice both a lot to see what I mean.

This set of Pao quan is, in my humble opinion, the quintessence of shaolin quan. If you are confused by the myriad forms of Pao quan, forget them all and highlight only this one.

If no one has heard of him It is worth looking up the name Wu shan lin (sometimes wu san lin).

Yes, I agree, my research has shown that Xiao Hong Quan and Pao Quan come from the same original system. It is very clear when you learn both and practice the movements.

Do you know of a good video of this definitive Pao Quan so we can show the other people reading this?

[wuseng33]

the last shifu in the clip seems to be doing a shaolin tantui form. before i studied a 12 road tan tui which came from the shi suxi linage and it has some lines identical to these.
however the first shifu performs parts of the pao quan I have seen before. not to discredit anyone but are you sure this is from wu san lin as I have also seen their linage do a different version of this (pao quan). If i can find it again i will post it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Abbot Shi Yong Xin's new book on Pao Quan shows a form I have never seen before.
it's very different from what is shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia and Tagou books as Pao Quan.

[wuseng33]

where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?

[Sal Canzonieri]

where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?

I'd say the only thing worth buying in the last 5 years are Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books on the Shaolin routines.

I have gotten all of mine (there are I think 10 of them out so far) from www.frelax.com, sometimes Amazon.com has some of them.
You can get them from most Chinese book selling websites, if you know Chinese.

They are yellow.

Check the end area of the Luohan Quan thread, I give a link to all his books on frelax.com, you can order from them in english, and they are very fast with delivery, and they give free delivery too!

[wuseng33]

who is the shifu actualy doing this pao quan? i have seen this version on youtube however it is missing a lot of moves I think? correct me if im wrong? the wu nan fang version is also slow and precise like this however as you said the mechanics are different. it may be in this site although i dont have time to look at the moment.
http://www.chanwuyi.com
i think it was one of his students doing it. I have also seen some quick village versions similar to the one you posted although containing a lot more moves.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Wuseng33

I don't know the guy doing this one. It says his name in the vid, but I don't know his lineage or where he teaches.

No, this is the standard for the form. It is only 2/3 sections, but to be fair I have only seen the 3rd section performed by one person, once. Most of the time it is practiced like this.

I have a video of Wunanfang doing pao quan. His 'shen fa' (body mechanics) are even more exagerrated than Dejian. What i mean is none of the stances are clear, his entire body moves in a strange almost undular way which is not really characteristic of Shaolinquan. The website you quoted 'chanwuyi' should be correct. He is president of Chanwuyi I think.

Wunanfang and Shidejian do the same length pao quan as above, the only major difference is the 'hold the tigers head' stance. Wunanfang and Shidejian use a slight variation on the stance.

Far as I know, the reason is because they have incorporated Chen Taiji SMALL Frame into the movements. Plus, the movements from Xinyi Ba.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Wuseng33

I don't know the guy doing this one. It says his name in the vid, but I don't know his lineage or where he teaches.

No, this is the standard for the form. It is only 2/3 sections, but to be fair I have only seen the 3rd section performed by one person, once. Most of the time it is practiced like this.

The remaining third section is shown in the new revised Tagou two volume series. Looks to be the complete 3 section 112 movements Pao Quan set (which is called Xiao Pao Quan in the book). Xiao for small movements, not meaning "short set"; likewise the Da Pao Quan is very short, but it is large movements. Like how Chen TJQ has a large frame and a Small frame version of the same sets.

Also, Liu Zhenhai teaches all three sections in his VCDs.

[RenDaHai]

@sal

Now I think about it yeah, tagous book does show the complete form, your right.

The ones by liu Zhen Hai are different though. His yi lu is the one we are referring to but er lo and san lo are a different pao quan.

As to the xiao in xiao pao quan I think it is a recent addition. All the old schools just refer to it as just Pao quan. During the 80s since many of the best masters were dead shaolin absorbed a lot of dengfeng forms into its curriculum. Often forms from dengfeng were called Da (greater area) and the original shaolin temple forms xiao. This is the case for pao quan, tong bi quan and others, before they were just referred to as pao quan, or tong bi quan. For some forms (like Xiao and Da hong quan of course) it has more specific meaning and has been this way a long time. Not to say the Da xiao nomenclature is modern, it appears in all styles for a long time, but it doesn't apply to forms like the current Da xiao pao quan as these two forms are unrelated. just as Da xiao tongbi are unrelated (at least unrelated for a long long time).

[LFJ]

i always liked this performance. filmed from the rear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4vZnGwAac

[Sal Canzonieri]

@sal

Now I think about it yeah, tagous book does show the complete form, your right.

The ones by liu Zhen Hai are different though. His yi lu is the one we are referring to but er lo and san lo are a different pao quan.

As to the xiao in xiao pao quan I think it is a recent addition. All the old schools just refer to it as just Pao quan. During the 80s since many of the best masters were dead shaolin absorbed a lot of dengfeng forms into its curriculum. Often forms from dengfeng were called Da (greater area) and the original shaolin temple forms xiao. This is the case for pao quan, tong bi quan and others, before they were just referred to as pao quan, or tong bi quan. For some forms (like Xiao and Da hong quan of course) it has more specific meaning and has been this way a long time. Not to say the Da xiao nomenclature is modern, it appears in all styles for a long time, but it doesn't apply to forms like the current Da xiao pao quan as these two forms are unrelated. just as Da xiao tongbi are unrelated (at least unrelated for a long long time).

I just posted on YouTube (sorry you can't see it in China) the three Pao Quan sets of Liu Zhenhai.

I cross checked his three routines with every resource I have.

His Pao Quan Yi Lu set is IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to the Da Pao Quan set in the Tagou books. No changes whatsoever.

His Er Lu and San Lu are abbreviated versions of Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan set.
Looks to be Er Lu is most of the first half, with the beginning missing.
San Lu is most of the second half, with the ending missing.

One mystery solved, almost.

Now, what I am wondering is:

1- where do the Xiao Pao Quan Yi lu and Er Lu sets come from that are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia - which are different from all these sets.

2 - what the heck is the Xiao Pao Quan that Shi Deyang is showing?

3 - Da Pao Chui shown in Shaolin Encyclopedia appears to be very closely connected to San Huang Pao Chui (3 Emperor) from Emei, Sichuan. Same intro salute, to give a clue, as well as many similar postures and movements. Wonder which came first?

4 - What is this Pao Quan set shown in Shi Yongxin's new book? It looks to be ancient, not modern at all. It is short, 23 postures (with 52 movements).

[RenDaHai]

@sal.

Its been a while since I saw the LiuZhenHai videos....

I seem to remember there being a set with lots of xu bu bai fo, rest stance with prayer hands. This is from a different pao quan. Perhaps he has even more than 3 (he has a lot of stuff). I'll take your word on that, I'll try to watch them again soon.

Ok, so Liu zhen hai is simply the full Pao quan that we are aware of, Tagous books are a good frame of reference. There are always small inconsistencies between forms, SO lets say with Tagou as reference Liuzhen hai does the full Xiao and Da pao quan.

I don't have access to my encyclopedia, but I do remember looking at the Pao quan in it before and being bewildered (as with many forms in that encyclopedia, no idea where that big luohan quan comes from).

Deyang; I spent time at his school THe video of deyang is Da pao quan, same as in tagous books (almost). He doesn't have a xiao pao quan video that I am aware of, but the xiao pao quan they practice in his school is the same as the one we are talking about (2/3, last section omitted as usual). The main difference I remember is that they emphasize the elbows when using hammers, makes it look a bit different.

Pao quan is one of those famous forms that every style has a version of. It usually shares the 'explosive' characteristics. If you watch the video above by yongwen he lists many styles of pao quan, it is entirely possible the form coud be of the same style at e'mei. I was at wudang earlier this year and even they have an explosive pao quan, not wudang character at all.

As to YongXins little yellow book... I am planning to go to Shaolin next week if i have time. Can't go on the weekend because its too busy (shame, the weather is perfect today). I'll try and pick up all the books while I am there and have a look. I'll let you know if there are any new ones out. 23 postures? Are you sure its not a reiteration of Da pao quan, it can vary quite a lot, the things to look out for is some sort of claw at the begining and a xu bu with 'tiger comes out of cave' like hands in the middle. Plus some strange ma bu footwork, usually a 360 spin, but sometimes just stepping backward several times.

[LFJ]

2 - what the heck is the Xiao Pao Quan that Shi Deyang is showing?


the video he has of xiaopaoquan is exactly the same set as the dapaoquan from liu zhenhai (yilu on the video). it is only missing the middle section after the slapkick and double punch, but comes back in with the spin around gongbu punch. should be fairly easy to see.

it is the same set shown here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxkuqTcSrkc

his dapaoquan videos (yilu and erlu) together is one set, the same set as liu zhenhai's xiaopaoquan (or erlu and sanlu paoquan on the video). the difference is, when they are put together to form an entire set, deyang's lacks the whole ending section shown on the sanlu video you uploaded.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the video he has of xiaopaoquan is exactly the same set as the dapaoquan from liu zhenhai (yilu on the video). it is only missing the middle section after the slapkick and double punch, but comes back in with the spin around gongbu punch. should be fairly easy to see.

it is the same set shown here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxkuqTcSrkc

his dapaoquan videos (yilu and erlu) together is one set, the same set as liu zhenhai's xiaopaoquan (or erlu and sanlu paoquan on the video). the difference is, when they are put together to form an entire set, deyang's lacks the whole ending section shown on the sanlu video you uploaded.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Because it said "Xiao" on his vcd, I didn't compare it to the other Pao Quan sets. So, since the Tagou Da Pao Quan set is shorter, it does make more since to call it Xiao. I wish they didn't start using this Xiao and Da nomenclature.

So, the Tagou Da Pao Quan set, the Liu ZhenHai Pao Quan Yi Lu set, and Shi Deyang Xiao Pao Quan are all the same set, more or less.

Shi Deyang's Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu are clearly the Tagou Xiao Pao Quan / Liu Zhen Hai Er Lu and San Lu set, more or less.

The ending of the Pao Quan set is even longer than that. I think the the 112 movement Tagou Xiao Pao Quan has a very long ending, which looks like another routine that continues from where most of them end.

okay, that's another mystery solved.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@sal.

Its been a while since I saw the LiuZhenHai videos....

I seem to remember there being a set with lots of xu bu bai fo, rest stance with prayer hands. This is from a different pao quan. Perhaps he has even more than 3 (he has a lot of stuff). I'll take your word on that, I'll try to watch them again soon.

Yes, one of the 6 Pao Quan VCDs does show that, I think it is the Xiao Pao Quan one? I wonder where his Xiao Pao Quan comes from? Or his Zhuo Shou Pao Quan and Ying Zhuo Pao Quan as well?


Ok, so Liu zhen hai is simply the full Pao quan that we are aware of, Tagous books are a good frame of reference. There are always small inconsistencies between forms, SO lets say with Tagou as reference Liuzhen hai does the full Xiao and Da pao quan.

Pretty much. His Pao Quan Yi, Er, and San Lu, we know now is Tagou's Da Pao Quan going into Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan. His Er and San Lu are not exactly the same as Xiao Pao Quan, but really close. I'd like to see them get together and confer these sets.


I don't have access to my encyclopedia, but I do remember looking at the Pao quan in it before and being bewildered (as with many forms in that encyclopedia, no idea where that big luohan quan comes from).

What do you mean here by "encyclopedia"? The Shaolin one or the Tagou one?
The Shaolin one, I have no idea where they got their Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets from?

The Tagou book's Da Luohan Quan is authentic, I have other books with the same set, from Liu Zhenhai lineage, and the set is very similar. As I said elsewhere, if you put the two versions together, you have a complete set, each one is missing one section, but two different ones.



Deyang; I spent time at his school The video of deyang is Da pao quan, same as in tagous books (almost). He doesn't have a xiao pao quan video that I am aware of, but the xiao pao quan they practice in his school is the same as the one we are talking about (2/3, last section omitted as usual). The main difference I remember is that they emphasize the elbows when using hammers, makes it look a bit different.

LFJ answered that one well/


Pao quan is one of those famous forms that every style has a version of. It usually shares the 'explosive' characteristics. If you watch the video above by yongwen he lists many styles of pao quan, it is entirely possible the form coud be of the same style at e'mei. I was at wudang earlier this year and even they have an explosive pao quan, not wudang character at all.

Well, it is well documented that San Huang Pao Chui comes from Emei, AND that there was a Shaolin influence brought into them, hence they share some postures (and Chen Taiji Quan shares the same ones in their Pao Chui set)


As to YongXins little yellow book... I am planning to go to Shaolin next week if i have time. Can't go on the weekend because its too busy (shame, the weather is perfect today). I'll try and pick up all the books while I am there and have a look. I'll let you know if there are any new ones out. 23 postures? Are you sure its not a reiteration of Da pao quan, it can vary quite a lot, the things to look out for is some sort of claw at the begining and a xu bu with 'tiger comes out of cave' like hands in the middle. Plus some strange ma bu footwork, usually a 360 spin, but sometimes just stepping backward several times.

Ah, last night I found a video on the internet of Shi Yongxin's Pao Quan as in his book.
Only it was a horribly mangled modern version of the set in the book. And the video cuts off early, so I can't see the end.
They called it Da Pao Quan in the video! AHHHHH, another Da set!
Wish I could see a nice clean copy of the set. I didn't bother saving a copy it was so bad. But since the set does some very unique movements, I could see that it was indeed the same set, just done with modern wushu body mechanics unfortunately.

[LaterthanNever]

Pao Quen=Leopard Fist?

Are you referring to the Leopard fist or the elusive "Leopard Style" that some claim exists yet which, would seem to be a dead system(with the possible exception of being absorbed in some respects by other styles--such as CLF)?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Pao Quen=Leopard Fist?

Are you referring to the Leopard fist or the elusive "Leopard Style" that some claim exists yet which, would seem to be a dead system(with the possible exception of being absorbed in some respects by other styles--such as CLF)?

Leopard is really Bao Quan, many people pinyin-ize it wrong.
Plus in some dialects P = B and B= P.

No, I am talking about Cannon Boxing. The chinese characters clearly are for Cannon. Shi Yongxin in the book says that he thinks that Pao Quan should stand for Power Boxing, rather than Cannon Boxing.

[RenDaHai]

@Sal
When I say Encyclopedia I mean the 4 book big encyclopedia, not Tagous books. I know the Luohan quan exactly as in Tagous books.

I would have to agree with YOngXin on this one,
I don't think Cannon is a great translation. 'Da Pao' is cannon. But Pao in chinese i literally like saying 'bang' in english. I like to call it 'explosive' fist. Everything explosive uses the character Pao.

Ok, looks like we have cleared a lot up about Pao quan.

The Xiao and Da naming system is too confusing. I think we should either abandon it or only use it in reference to Tagous books (because they are the only ones in English).

SO we have Shaolin temple Pao Quan (wu shan lins, Xiao pao in Tagous books) has 3 roads. Most people only perform 2 of them. THe 3rd is almost a different form which I don't think there are any available videos of ( i have 1 but don't know how to rip it and upload it, can't access you tube anyway). Tagous Xiao pao quan appears to be all 3 put together in one form. Many SHaolin sets have 3 forms.

Next we have Dengfeng Pao quan (Da pao in Tagous books, xiao pao in deyangs videos, Yilu pao in Liuzhenhais videos, also the pao quan in yongxins yellow book apparently). This is a short form with a couple of unique stances and a cool spin into a gong bu punch. It is short and doesn't compare to shaolin pao quan above. My teacher said this is the Pao quan practiced in Dengfengs folk wushu.


So to avoid confusion lets call them Dengfeng Pao quan (short) and SHaolin pao quan (long, 3 roads).

There are other Pao quans but these two are the most important. Liu Zhen Hai clearly has a few others which we don't know much about.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal
When I say Encyclopedia I mean the 4 book big encyclopedia, not Tagous books. I know the Luohan quan exactly as in Tagous books.

I would have to agree with YOngXin on this one,
I don't think Cannon is a great translation. 'Da Pao' is cannon. But Pao in chinese i literally like saying 'bang' in english. I like to call it 'explosive' fist. Everything explosive uses the character Pao.

Ok, looks like we have cleared a lot up about Pao quan.

The Xiao and Da naming system is too confusing. I think we should either abandon it or only use it in reference to Tagous books (because they are the only ones in English).

SO we have Shaolin temple Pao Quan (wu shan lins, Xiao pao in Tagous books) has 3 roads. Most people only perform 2 of them. THe 3rd is almost a different form which I don't think there are any available videos of ( i have 1 but don't know how to rip it and upload it, can't access you tube anyway). Tagous Xiao pao quan appears to be all 3 put together in one form. Many SHaolin sets have 3 forms.

Next we have Dengfeng Pao quan (Da pao in Tagous books, xiao pao in deyangs videos, Yilu pao in Liuzhenhais videos, also the pao quan in yongxins yellow book apparently). This is a short form with a couple of unique stances and a cool spin into a gong bu punch. It is short and doesn't compare to shaolin pao quan above. My teacher said this is the Pao quan practiced in Dengfengs folk wushu.


So to avoid confusion lets call them Dengfeng Pao quan (short) and SHaolin pao quan (long, 3 roads).

There are other Pao quans but these two are the most important. Liu Zhen Hai clearly has a few others which we don't know much about.

Agree with just about everything you said.

Only thing, that Shi Yongxin's Pao Quan book is not the Dapao Quan of Dengfeng.
That one video called it Da Pao Quan, but the routine clearly is not.
It looks like a very old style routine to me, very connected to its Hong Quan roots.
It starts with Tiger Claws for a few postures and then goes into entirely different directions, postures, and movements from all these different Pao Quan sets we have been looking at so far.
I was surprised to find a video that came close to it, Ithink the vidoe is from a Dengfeng area school; but remember that these booklets that Abbot Shi Yongxin is publishing are the results of research he is conducting by having Shaolin monks confer with Henan folk masters and they investigate what the movements in the routines are supposed to me.
In each booklet, a routine is revitalized, it's gone through the wringer and analyzed to got to a definitive version of the set.

Also, he is using the amazing Shi Yan Zhuang as a model for each routine in the series! Seems weird that I am older than Shi Yan by three years.

(By the way, the person doing the classic version of Shaolin Pao Quan that is always in the videos is Shi Yongxin.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

The next set of Shaolin Routines that we should give this treatment should be the Tongbi Quan sets! Now those are pretty mixed up too!

Also, another thing to look into is that there are different lineages at Shaolin doing different sets of routines that are entirely different from other people.

The sets we have talked about so far in threads here of Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Luohan Quan, etc., are all from a common source.
That's one lineage, so to speak.
(Note: from out of this material, plus Wudang Nei Jia Quan's 13 Postures, the styles of Henan Tongbei Quan and Chen & Zhaobao Taiji Quan later developed during the 1600s!)

But, there is another very old lineage of sets that are Xin Yi Quan based. These come from the interaction between Ji Longfeng and later his students visiting Shaolin and there being a feedback loop between the two. Ji learned Tiger and Rooster from Shaolin (and other stuff), in return he taught them 6 Harmony Spear and Boxing that he had picked up from what he learned during his visits to Qianzhi Temple. Ji developed his Shanxi Xin Yi Quan and later his students returned to Shaolin and showed the monks this material.

From out of this interaction came not only the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, the Xin Yi Quan, Xing Quan Walking Boxing), and other related sets, but also the famous Shaolin Qi Xing sets!
This series of sets needs some investigation as well, since they are considered some of Shaolin's oldest routines.

SHI YONG ZHI, b. 1968, 33rd Generation is famous for his demonstrations of Qi Xing Quan - Seven Star Boxing. (I'm older than him too by 8 years, ha)

[LFJ]

The next set of Shaolin Routines that we should give this treatment should be the Tongbi Quan sets! Now those are pretty mixed up too!

agree...


From out of this interaction came not only the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, the Xin Yi Quan, Xing Quan Walking Boxing), and other related sets, but also the famous Shaolin Qi Xing sets!
This series of sets needs some investigation as well, since they are considered some of Shaolin's oldest routines.

SHI YONG ZHI, b. 1968, 33rd Generation is famous for his demonstrations of Qi Xing Quan - Seven Star Boxing. (I'm older than him too by 8 years, ha)

and why are the mizongquan sets called xinyinquan心意拳? i've seen that in a few unrelated sources, years apart.

i started a thread a while back about qixing and changhuxinyimen.
perhaps we could pull that one back up and continue from there.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51555

[Sal Canzonieri]

agree...



and why are the mizongquan sets called xinyinquan心意拳? i've seen that in a few unrelated sources, years apart.

i started a thread a while back about qixing and changhuxinyimen.
perhaps we could pull that one back up and continue from there.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51555

okay, cool.

Let's do the Tongbi Quan things first, there is some stuff to clear up about the sets.

After that, we can work on the Qixong and Changhuxinyiman, and the other related sets, that's a lot of stuff to cover and much to say. History goes way back.
I have names now, exact names and so on for when this stuff got into the temple.
It's from an outside influence, Taoist.

Also, Mizong comes from outside Shaolin, it was introduced, I have the whole history in my book covered. But it is a totally separate lineage from Xinyi Quan, they are completely unrelated and from different time periods, and the people that brought them to Shaolin are from two different opposite areas of China.

So, it would be easier to clear up the Tongbei / Tongbi Quan sets first.

[Sal Canzonieri]

One last entry on remaining Pao Quan mysteries:

1. There being a Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu in the Shaolin Encyclopedia that doesn't match anything anywhere else. I spent a few hours today going through all my archives on Shaolin Quan. I found more Shaolin Quan books that showed these same two sets, exactly as shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, no variations. I've never seen any videos that showed these two sets anywhere either. I wonder where these two sets originally came from? I know that Shi De Qian went to many different countries looking for Shaolin lineages that came from Song Shan. I also know that he went through all the hand written copies that were made of Shaolin's rountine books (Quan Pu) that were copied before (obviously) the big fire that burned down the temple. I have one book that has drawings in it that were from the monk that hand copied the books secretly at night (thank god that he did that!) and these two forms are in there.


2. I have a book by Liu Zhenhai (I have many by him) and one of them has three sets in it of Pao Quan, which are labelled Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu Pao Quan!
The book is Shaolin Quan Gun Dao Xie Tao Lu Jing Cui, 1990, isbn 7563901140.

Okay, so I dug them up today and have been comparing them to the videos.

- The Yi Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is exactly his Ying Zhua Pao Quan set, with no changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

- The Er Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a much more detailed version of the Tagou Dao Pao Quan set (which is the Yi Lu set in his videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

- The San Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a full 76 posture set / 139 movements, and is the most complete version I have ever seen of the Xiao Pao Quan set (Tagou), much more detailed and with all the transition movements shown that aren't even in his VCD videos of the set (his Er Lu and San Lu videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

In my opinion, this is the definitive version of the long Pao Quan set, much more complete, smooth, and coherent than the Tagou version or of any videos.

By the way, Liu Zhenhai says that the Eagle Claw Pao Quan set dates back from the Song Dynasty and was created by a monk named Zhao.
Also, he states that the Siezing Hand Pao Quan set comes down from the teachings of high monk Miao Ju.

[RenDaHai]

Ok so,

Liu Zhen hai has Dengfeng pao quan, shaolin si sanlu pao quan (collectively his 1,2,3 sets in his videos).

He also has Ying Zhao pao quan (eagle claw)

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

So he has the most complete Pao Quan.

Went to the Shaolin Temple today.

Got the yellow book by Yongxin with Shi Yan Zhuang performing. ANd I met him in person, check the Luohan quan thread, it was a good day.

THe version he performs in the book is indeed our Deng Feng short Pao quan set. Took me a couple of readthroughs to realise it. He uses Meng hu chu dong while standing on one leg rather than in Xu bu. He does the three steps back ward...twice, he also does the spin into gong bu punch (page 31, act 4...270 degree spin), except he does it standing up so it is hard to tell. This is the best version of Dengfeng Da Pao quan I have seen, but it is definately the same form. SO another mystery cleared up.

We have Dengfeng Da Pao quan, Sanlu shaolin xiao Pao quan, Yingzhao pao quan and qi shou pao quan.


The main shaolin forms seem to be arranged in this way, 1 long sanlu (3 road) form followed by 1 short accompanying form;

Changhuxinyimen (long, 3 sections) Qixing quan (short)
Zhaoyang Quan (long 3 sections) Guanchao quan (short)
Tongbi quan (long 3 sections) Da Tongbi (short)
Pao Quan (long 3 sections) Da Pao quan (short)
Da Hong quan (long 3 sections) Xiao Hong quan (medium)

The above forms (20 distinct taolu, or 10 distinct taolu depending how you look at it) form the essence of shaolin quan. If you know all of the above you have the best of shaolin forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ok so,

Liu Zhen hai has Dengfeng pao quan, shaolin si sanlu pao quan (collectively his 1,2,3 sets in his videos).

He also has Ying Zhao pao quan (eagle claw)

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

So he has the most complete Pao Quan.

Went to the Shaolin Temple today.

Got the yellow book by Yongxin with Shi Yan Zhuang performing. ANd I met him in person, check the Luohan quan thread, it was a good day.

THe version he performs in the book is indeed our Deng Feng short Pao quan set. Took me a couple of readthroughs to realise it. He uses Meng hu chu dong while standing on one leg rather than in Xu bu. He does the three steps back ward...twice, he also does the spin into gong bu punch (page 31, act 4...270 degree spin), except he does it standing up so it is hard to tell. This is the best version of Dengfeng Da Pao quan I have seen, but it is definately the same form. SO another mystery cleared up.

We have Dengfeng Da Pao quan, Sanlu shaolin xiao Pao quan, Yingzhao pao quan and qi shou pao quan.


The main shaolin forms seem to be arranged in this way, 1 long sanlu (3 road) form followed by 1 short accompanying form;

Changhuxinyimen (long, 3 sections) Qixing quan (short)
Zhaoyang Quan (long 3 sections) Guanchao quan (short)
Tongbi quan (long 3 sections) Da Tongbi (short)
Pao Quan (long 3 sections) Da Pao quan (short)
Da Hong quan (long 3 sections) Xiao Hong quan (medium)

The above forms (20 distinct taolu, or 10 distinct taolu depending how you look at it) form the essence of shaolin quan. If you know all of the above you have the best of shaolin forms.

Well, if you know Taizu Chang Quan and the Rou Quan set and the neigong sets (6 harmony, Chan Yuan, and Luohan 13 Gong)
THEN you will know WHY Shaolin is the way it is.

Those other sets give you the externals, but the internals come from Chang Quan and Rou Quan.

[LFJ]

AND Qi Shou Pao quan (not sure, shou is hand)

提手炮拳 tíshǒupàoquán

tishou means a handle, but can also mean "hand-held" as an adjective, as ti means to lift or carry and shou means hand. so "hand-held cannon boxing".

tishoupao is a common movement name in the paoquan and other hongquan sets. it usually refers to the technique in which the back of the rear hand does an under-strike forward into the opposite palm held low on the inside of the knee in gongbu, usually followed by a jump forward into pubu qiezhang as in the three dahongquan sets.

these are the characters of the set shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

but sal named it "zhuo shou" (seizing hand).

sal,

i think you misread the characters. they are very similar. but zhuo is 捉 and ti is 提. the ti character has an extra horizontal stroke in the box, and under it.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Cool, good answer.

Yes I'm familiar with the move, in my school its referred to as 'Yao Bu'. Its not actually pu bu but a different stance.

You hit the hand foreward, you can use this to hit the opponants groin, or as in 'seizing hand' the hands coming together symbolises capturing the opponants wrist. E.g they grab your wrist, you capture, turn then jump into yao bu.

Where as Pu bu the emphasis is on the straight leg kicking out, in yao bu it slides out so as to enter the opponants 'sphere'. Some people actually do this without pu bu at all, they keep the toes pointed upward but still drop very low.

A lot of schools do this as Pu bu, but recently the more traditional schools I have been frequenting use yao bu. Similar, but an interesting variation. Depending which version of 2 lo 3 lo you use Da hong quan can have this move 6 times!

[Sal Canzonieri]

提手炮拳 tíshǒupàoquán

tishou means a handle, but can also mean "hand-held" as an adjective, as ti means to lift or carry and shou means hand. so "hand-held cannon boxing".

tishoupao is a common movement name in the paoquan and other hongquan sets. it usually refers to the technique in which the back of the rear hand does an under-strike forward into the opposite palm held low on the inside of the knee in gongbu, usually followed by a jump forward into pubu qiezhang as in the three dahongquan sets.

these are the characters of the set shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

but sal named it "zhuo shou" (seizing hand).

sal,

i think you misread the characters. they are very similar. but zhuo is 捉 and ti is 提. the ti character has an extra horizontal stroke in the box, and under it.

Yes, you are entirely correct. I stubbornly keep trying to avoid using my new reading glasses in a feeble attempt to deny I need them.
Yes, after putting on my reading glasses, it is indeed Ti not Zhuo, thanks, much appreciated. I will correct that posting.

[LFJ]

Where as Pu bu the emphasis is on the straight leg kicking out, in yao bu it slides out so as to enter the opponants 'sphere'. Some people actually do this without pu bu at all, they keep the toes pointed upward but still drop very low.

right, or as the video of the old layman practicing dahongquan does it on the heal, with the toes pointing up!

pubu qiezhang just naturally came to mind for the technique, but at master deyang's it is called "jianbu dancha".

箭步 jiànbù as a compound word means "a sudden big stride forward", and separately means "arrow step", which i like to think of as a "shooting in" technique.

what is the character and/or meaning of yaobu?

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

I'll have to get back to you on that one

@all

Its just gotton a little more complicated,

Just watched Liu Zhen Hais video, His 'Xiao Pao quan' is another distinct form. Its the one with the xie bu Bai fo.

So LiuZhenHai has 1lo, 2lo, 3lo, Ying Zhao, Tishou, and Xiao Pao quan. This version of xiao pao is something new, nicely symmetrical, lots of Dan bian posture.

[LFJ]

Just watched Liu Zhen Hais video, His 'Xiao Pao quan' is another distinct form. Its the one with the xie bu Bai fo.

So LiuZhenHai has 1lo, 2lo, 3lo, Ying Zhao, Tishou, and Xiao Pao quan. This version of xiao pao is something new, nicely symmetrical, lots of Dan bian posture.

any videos of it online?

it doesnt look like this "paoquan" has been discussed:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_Mjg2MzU3MTc.html

lots of danbian, and various moves from taizu changquan and hongquan sets. but looks terribly fast and modernized. not sure what its supposed to be.

might as well add shi dejun's paoquan performance too. his sets are pretty good:
http://v.ku6.com/show/gzstAOc5e18yzi40.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

@LFJ

I'll have to get back to you on that one

@all

Its just gotton a little more complicated,

Just watched Liu Zhen Hais video, His 'Xiao Pao quan' is another distinct form. Its the one with the xie bu Bai fo.

So LiuZhenHai has 1lo, 2lo, 3lo, Ying Zhao, Tishou, and Xiao Pao quan. This version of xiao pao is something new, nicely symmetrical, lots of Dan bian posture.

Yes, I've not seen it in any of his books or anywhere else so far, but it looks very authentic nonetheless.

And, there is still the Shaolin Encyclopedia's Yi Lu and Er Lu Xiao Pao Quan that I wonder where it comes from as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

any videos of it online?

it doesnt look like this "paoquan" has been discussed:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_Mjg2MzU3MTc.html

lots of danbian, and various moves from taizu changquan and hongquan sets. but looks terribly fast and modernized. not sure what its supposed to be.

might as well add shi dejun's paoquan performance too. his sets are pretty good:
http://v.ku6.com/show/gzstAOc5e18yzi40.html


the routine is this one:
Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBe2lUtIOgQ

Ugghhh!!! That first link you gave, I've been avoiding to look it that one again!
I think it is modern wushu set of Pao Quan. Its on youtube somewhere, I saw it there too.
If it was a traditional routine once, it's now ruined.

I like Shi Dejun. He always does a strong job, and he does some rare sets sometimes, like his Lao Hong Quan (the one that goes with Xiao Hong Quan).

[RenDaHai]

Yeah,
About Dejun.
How authentic is his Lao Hong quan?

I vaguely know this set. It is basically xiao hong quan but all the moves are slightly larger frame, hence it is often referred to as Da Hong quan 4 lo in dengfeng. The school Wuseng tuan uses it as Da hong quan.

I've heard a lot about Lao hong quan sets but have little experiance with them, is this the most authentic Lao hong quan? If so I will meet some of my teachers and revise it.

I often wanted to go to find Dejun to see if he knows all 13 sets of KanJia quan. I encountered another shaolin school once who practced exactly the same sets, but under a different name, and there were only 10. I found one school in Dengfeng where the headmistress knew all 13 sets, but she wouldn't teach :-( I'm quite interested in both Lao hong quan and Kanjia quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah,
About Dejun.
How authentic is his Lao Hong quan?

I vaguely know this set. It is basically xiao hong quan but all the moves are slightly larger frame, hence it is often referred to as Da Hong quan 4 lo in dengfeng. The school Wuseng tuan uses it as Da hong quan.

I've heard a lot about Lao hong quan sets but have little experience with them, is this the most authentic Lao hong quan? If so I will meet some of my teachers and revise it.

I often wanted to go to find Dejun to see if he knows all 13 sets of KanJia quan. I encountered another shaolin school once who practiced exactly the same sets, but under a different name, and there were only 10. I found one school in Dengfeng where the headmistress knew all 13 sets, but she wouldn't teach :-( I'm quite interested in both Lao hong quan and Kanjia quan.

Well, lets clarify something.

There's two different things called Lao Hong Quan.

1. there's the Four sets of Lao Hong Quan practiced in Dengfeng and other others areas. Liu Zhenhai teaches and has written a book on it.
These four sets are directly from Zhao Kuangyin's visit to Shaolin. They are a merger of his family Da Hong Quan style (which appears to be the Big Vast Fist that is practiced in Kaifeng / Luoyang and other areas that the Tang military congregated along the Yellow River) AND Shaolin Rou Quan. He went there to learn the essence of Shaolin Rou Quan.
I have learned these four sets and can verify that they are indeed a merger of these two styles.
These four sets are unlike the Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets that Shaolin is most known for. There is some overlap in specific movments, but the sequences of postures does not follow any in Xiao and Da Hong Quan.

2 - the set you are talking about is also practiced by Liu Zhenhai and in that region. Calling it Lao Hong Quan is not really good, as it is confusing, and it's original name was Da Hong Quan, because that's what Li Sou's style from Gansu was called. It is a longer version of Xiao Hong Quan. I have learned this set as well. There is a first section, and then at a certain point that rest of the set follows along the Xiao Hong Quan set, the only difference being it is much more complicated and advanced and has many more intermediate movements and postures than Xiao Hong Quan. This set has many similarities to Ba Qua Zhang, some of the movements are just like doing Ba Gua. In fact, Gao style Ba Gua is directly related to it, as the Gao family practiced Shaolin Da Hong Quan (this type) for a few generations.

Some people call this set Da Xiao Hong Quan, some call it Lao Xiao Hong Quan.
What it is exactly is the same setup as the other Shaolin sets:
1 - Xiao Hong Quan - the short set
2 - this related Da Hong Quan - the long set, which is in 3 sections (like all the long Shaolin sets).

Liu Zhenhai and Shi Dejun both teach this Old version of Da (Xiao) Hong Quan. There is slight variation between them. What is often see is that Shaolin has you turned around to face the audience, whereas the Liu Zhehai versions don't do that, you have your back to the audience about half the time or more. Shaolin doesn't like doing that, since they rely on exhibitions so much (and it is considered impolite).

3 - The 3 Road Da Hong Quan that most are familiar with is a totally separate style, it doesn't go with Xiao Hong Quan at all really. It is a distinct different style.
And it is not 3 Roads only, it is 13 Roads in full total. In Dengfeng you can find the first 6 Roads easily, it is very hard to find anyone still alive that knows all 13 roads.
The first 3 Roads came from Henan, the rest of them were developed in Shandong. The full 13 Road Da Hong Quan can be found in Shandong still to this day.

So, you have three options in the Dengfeng area if you want to learn this material:

1 - Learn the full version of this (old) Da (Xiao) Hong Quan set that comes from Li Sou's Da Hong Quan - Flood Fist (I posted all the names of the postures once in this forum). If you learn this, then standard Xiao Hong Quan is very basic and simple in comparison.

2 - Learn the Four Roads of Zhao Kuangyin's Lao Hong Quan style, which comes from Yellow River Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist). They are amazing sets to learn, I teach them and I practice them just about everyday. The short road that goes with this is Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures set. There is some overlap with these sets and Chen Taiji Quan, by the way, they share a lot of sequences of movements and postures.

3 - Learn the remaining Six Roads of Shaolin Da Hong Quan style (or more of the 13, if you can find them).


-----------------------------

The Kanjia Quan sets.
I've never seen Shi Dejun do all 13 sets. Most people have merged some sets and made them into 10 sets (these are the 10 sets that eventually reached Shandong and became the "Bei Shaolin Quan" style that is pretty famous.)
Different regions of Henan do their Kanjia different ways.
Some don't call the sets Kanjia Quan, they use different names. One calls it Jingang Quan, but that isn't right.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows all 13 sets of Kanjia Quan. Don't know how perfect it is done, but it's there.

This style was practiced mostly in the shrine areas surrounding Shaolin temple, and was considered an anti-qing rebel style during the 1700s. It is very close to the Da Hong quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) style, which makes it basically village Hong quan or Folk hong quan mixed with some Shaolin Quan of that era (Luohan and so on).
Around 1735-1765, the Qing forced out the shrine area "martial monks" and rebels and they left for Shandong province. Hence, that is how the Bei Shaolin Quan style developed there.
Over time the sets were condensed and mixed with local martial arts and became the famous 10 sets that people know today.

[RenDaHai]

Cool,

The 4 road lao hong quan sounds the most interesting. I've seen just one of these sets by Liuzhenhai.

The 'xiao - Da' hong quan I never really used to like, its basics are a little different from standard shaolin sets. I'll learn it again if the oppertunity presents itself.

I much prefer the standard Xiao hong quan, its simplicity is what makes it great.

I heard about DaHong quan having 13 sets. Many of the sets I see in dengfeng are just variations on 2 and 3. Liu ZhenHai has 4,5 and 6 THen I have seen a distinct 7 and 8 in another place. As to the others I have not seen. Most of them contain mainly moves from the first 3 in different combinations. Da hong quan is fantastic, would be great to learn more of it.

The Place i saw that had Kanjia quan in 10 sets under a different name (I think it was Dashanmen) this place also had 10 road jingang quan as a different set. THe school was not in shaolin though and its basics were a little removed. Must have left some generations ago.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cool,

The 4 road lao hong quan sounds the most interesting. I've seen just one of these sets by Liuzhenhai.

The 'xiao - Da' hong quan I never really used to like, its basics are a little different from standard shaolin sets. I'll learn it again if the oppertunity presents itself.

I much prefer the standard Xiao hong quan, its simplicity is what makes it great.

I heard about DaHong quan having 13 sets. Many of the sets I see in dengfeng are just variations on 2 and 3. Liu ZhenHai has 4,5 and 6 THen I have seen a distinct 7 and 8 in another place. As to the others I have not seen. Most of them contain mainly moves from the first 3 in different combinations. Da hong quan is fantastic, would be great to learn more of it.

The Place i saw that had Kanjia quan in 10 sets under a different name (I think it was Dashanmen) this place also had 10 road jingang quan as a different set. THe school was not in shaolin though and its basics were a little removed. Must have left some generations ago.

I love the 4 Roads of Lao Hong Quan because I totally love Taizu Chang Quan and Rou Quan. It is the missing link and a real treasure. The sets may seem simple at first (and being ancient, they should, considering the source was a young soldier named Zhao Kuang Yin), but once you ingrain them into you, you see how they serve as the root to much of what internal martial arts does.

The "Xiao" Da Hong Quan, well that set really grows on you. If you really get to explore it's ideas and strategy, you can see it is the complementary long set to the short standard Xiao Hong Quan. It's a real artifact from Li Sou and it should be deeply respected, once you get into it.
Plus, the Bagua Zhang aspects give you a new range of applications that other Shaolin sets don't offer. It really teaches you how to get out of the way of incoming attacks and divert it and then reverse yourself to clobber someone from behind or flank.

All of the sets from 4 to 13 were made from rearrange sets 1 to 3 and merging in Shandong local martial arts here and there. Kinda fun to find the puzzle pieces.


Hmm, maybe that place learned their Kanjia and Jingang direct from the Shaolin Encyclopdia, ha hah.

[RenDaHai]

Hmm, maybe that place learned their Kanjia and Jingang direct from the Shaolin Encyclopdia, ha hah.

Haha, yeah I though of that, but no, its actually removed from this area by a while. The basics are all different, the same moves but done in a different way. Also the form is different, but it is enough the same to see that it is kanjia quan. THeir version doesn't stay on a straight line but goes in all 4 directions, although it is the same applications in the same sequence it no longer really looks like shaolin quan. Very interesting to see though. In some respects closer to the encyclopedia than Dejuns sets, but in other respects further removed.


The Xiao, Da hong quan looks like someone has tried to improve xiao hong quan. I can see the applications are good, but it doesn't quite seem to fit with shaolin character to me, the 'flavour' is different... Still if I get the chance I'll revise it.

I can see some Taizu movements in the lao hong quan of Liuzhenhai, very interesting.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Haha, yeah I though of that, but no, its actually removed from this area by a while. The basics are all different, the same moves but done in a different way. Also the form is different, but it is enough the same to see that it is kanjia quan. THeir version doesn't stay on a straight line but goes in all 4 directions, although it is the same applications in the same sequence it no longer really looks like shaolin quan. Very interesting to see though. In some respects closer to the encyclopedia than Dejuns sets, but in other respects further removed.


The Xiao, Da hong quan looks like someone has tried to improve xiao hong quan. I can see the applications are good, but it doesn't quite seem to fit with shaolin character to me, the 'flavour' is different... Still if I get the chance I'll revise it.

I can see some Taizu movements in the lao hong quan of Liuzhenhai, very interesting.

Strange that their Kanjia does that. But, as I said, kanjia is Shaolin's version of folk hong quan. As such, each shrine area had their own way of doing things. If practice space was limited, I can see changing the roads to go in four short directions instead of long roads.

About the long Xiao Da Hong Quan set, well, yeah, sure it looks "foreign". Its from outside Shaolin originally, its from the Gansu Da Hong Quan style that Li Sou introduced into Shaolin. Shi Dejun does a good job of it, but he does it with more Shaolin like emphasis. I have seen it done with more of it's own flavor and it looks more interesting.
He also introduced the original staff fighting methods that they became famous for later.

[LFJ]

so... there is also a tiebiquan (铁臂拳, iron arm boxing) that shi xingsen does on the performance vcd we've been discussing.

it is the short "dapaoquan" set, up until the 360 gongbu chongquan, which is basically the whole set, but then the ending has a completely different sequence.

not sure about this one...

all of those sets on the performance vcd have individual instructional vcds as well, by the way.

[Sal Canzonieri]

so... there is also a tiebiquan (铁臂拳, iron arm boxing) that shi xingsen does on the performance vcd we've been discussing.

it is the short "dapaoquan" set, up until the 360 gongbu chongquan, which is basically the whole set, but then the ending has a completely different sequence.

not sure about this one...

all of those sets on the performance vcd have individual instructional vcds as well, by the way.

WHAT! The TiebiQuan VCD is really Dapaoquan? with an extra section at the end?

Hmm, maybe Dapaoquan was originally this way?

ALSO, Liu's vcd on Golden Child Luohan (Arhat) is actually a more complex and traditional looking version of the Tagou ER LU (refined) Luohan Quan set!
So, that base is covered.

All these Shi Degen guys have been doing their routines for hundreds of years in that lineage (before and after Shi Degen himself, I am counting).
The Shaolin people have only been doing sets since 1980 and those are really the ones that Wu San Lun brought back to them, yes?

[LFJ]

WHAT! The TiebiQuan VCD is really Dapaoquan? with an extra section at the end?

Hmm, maybe Dapaoquan was originally this way?

i dont know. if you dont have this one i will upload it on youtube.


ALSO, Liu's vcd on Golden Child Luohan (Arhat) is actually a more complex and traditional looking version of the Tagou ER LU (refined) Luohan Quan set!
So, that base is covered.

yeah, but very short.


All these Shi Degen guys have been doing their routines for hundreds of years in that lineage (before and after Shi Degen himself, I am counting).
The Shaolin people have only been doing sets since 1980 and those are really the ones that Wu San Lun brought back to them, yes?

wu shanlin was invited by ven. zhenxu to teach. so he brought his oldest son wu qianyou and taught ven. zhenxu, degen, dechan, and others. so there is some overlap there, as far as wu shanlin lineage.

ven. zhenxu was also known to practice his own package. abbot henglin too. so they've done their own bit as well. ven. zhenxu died in 1955. ven. suxi and other shaolin masters learned from him, so i'm not sure what you mean by "shaolin people" starting taolu practice in 1980 via wu shanlin.

[LFJ]

here is the tiebiquan performed by shi xingsen
(basically dapaoquan with a different ending):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss39SG30fFk

here is the same set performed at shi xingsen's school by his student (thats him in the background).
the ending sequence to this one is much longer. it does everything in the tiebiquan above, and then an additional section. the tiebiquan video above only has a few extra moves not in the dapaoquan set usually:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wjNzlxhqQ

funny thing is his student is solid. does it much better than him. the student's version is also more interesting. and i'm not sure where this extra sequence of moves comes from.

[Sal Canzonieri]

i dont know. if you dont have this one i will upload it on youtube.



yeah, but very short.



wu shanlin was invited by ven. zhenxu to teach. so he brought his oldest son wu qianyou and taught ven. zhenxu, degen, dechan, and others. so there is some overlap there, as far as wu shanlin lineage.

ven. zhenxu was also known to practice his own package. abbot henglin too. so they've done their own bit as well. ven. zhenxu died in 1955. ven. suxi and other shaolin masters learned from him, so i'm not sure what you mean by "shaolin people" starting taolu practice in 1980 via wu shanlin.

I have the Tiebi Quan set on VCD, but thanks for uploading anyways, I can make a flv file that I can keep on my pc. I'll look it over and compare to Da Paoquan. ok, yes, it is indeed that Dapao Quan set, it's the first 25 postures, just missing a few at the end right before the final salute. The main difference is the flavor with which this is done. It has the strong emphasis on the circling fist thing, which isn't like modern people showing Da Pao Quan, so that's the Iron Arm thing then. Heck, who knows now what is going on? It's a much cooler way to do the set though, don't you think? This seems a lot less modern looking.
Liu Zhenhai has a set called Shaolin Za Quan, which means Smashing Fist, and it is so much like Shaolin Shi Tuo (Meteor), but Liu's order of postures is different, you can see that they are very much of the same style, but the sequences are different between the two sets.

Golden Child Luohan is very short compared to the modern Er Lu Luohan, but I bet it is the original way, because real old Luohan sets were always done in short sections, not long forms (Da Luohan is a bunch of short sets strung together). The modern version seems to have added a lot of stuff from Xiao Luohan and Lao Luohan and other sets and mashed them together.

By "Shaolin people" and "1980", I meant the performance "monks", the people that go out and do exhibitions and show the famous 10 sets (or 24 sets) of Shaolin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

here is the tiebiquan performed by shi xingsen
(basically dapaoquan with a different ending):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss39SG30fFk

here is the same set performed at shi xingsen's school by his student (thats him in the background).
the ending sequence to this one is much longer. it does everything in the tiebiquan above, and then an additional section. the tiebiquan video above only has a few extra moves not in the dapaoquan set usually:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wjNzlxhqQ

funny thing is his student is solid. does it much better than him. the student's version is also more interesting. and i'm not sure where this extra sequence of moves comes from.

Tiebi Quan just ends a few movements earlier, about 4-6, in comparison to the Tagou books version.
The Shaolin Encyc doesn't have Da Pao Quan, it does show an almost pretty much it version called Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu. but shorter.

That second video, I like it by the way, is the whole set, as in the Tagou books and elsewhere, only with an extra sweeping kick at the very end.
So, I would say that this is the definitive version of Dapao Quan / Tiebi Quan.

[LFJ]

nice. wonder why its called tiebiquan though.

how do the others end without the sweep and kick?

[Sal Canzonieri]

nice. wonder why its called tiebiquan though.

how do the others end without the sweep and kick?

With standing on one leg, one arm up in the air and other on leg.

[richard sloan]

sick thread!

thanks gentleman, this is awesome reading, I'm envious, my mandarin sucks.

in some of these vids it looks like some of the moves share similarities to a baby leopard fist we have...and a da pao chuan seminar is coming down the pipe so it's very timely.

much respect.

[LFJ]

Please Watch

Here is as Video by Shi Yong Wen;

http://www.56.com/u39/v_MTM3OTA2ODQ.html

It contains some clips of him performing WuShanLins pao quan. It also contains a lot of information on the many styles of Pao quan (if you can understand chinese).

shi yongwen in this clip says "shaolin wushu has a three section one road 'dapaoquan', and a single section 'xiaopaoquan'". (at about the 2 minute mark)

seems his naming for the sets is the same as shi deyang's. the short one is "xiao" and the long one is "da".

who all calls the long one "da" and the short one "xiao"? just tagou?

[Sal Canzonieri]

shi yongwen in this clip says "shaolin wushu has a three section one road 'dapaoquan', and a single section 'xiaopaoquan'". (at about the 2 minute mark)

seems his naming for the sets is the same as shi deyang's. the short one is "xiao" and the long one is "da".

who all calls the long one "da" and the short one "xiao"? just tagou?

I thought I had seen an interview with Liu Baohsan where he said that long ago the names were switched to fool people trying to copy their stuff? I dimly remember something about this. Not totally sure though.

[RenDaHai]

The names are different to everyone who practices them, don't pay attention to it.. It should just be Pao quan.

Watched the Liuzhenhai VCDs of 1+2+3 pao quan today.

his yi lu is the same as the one in Yanzhuangs book precisely.

his Erlo is the standard Pao quan (with all the hammers) 1st and 2nd section.

His san lo is the illusive third section of pao quan. Same as tagous books. It is quite funny though. He stops his er lo a little earlier than most people do, and starts san lo with a few moves from the end of er lo at the begining. this confused me on first watch.

This shows that as far as he was concerned it was all one form, he just split it for the VCd. SO his 2+3 are one form.


Actually by the way Tagou refers to the Xiao Pao quan as the long one. Deyang does the opposite. It doesn't matter, there are may other poa quans as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Plus, there is the fact that Pao Quan was part of Hong Quan system.
They weren't a separate style as they are often done today.

By the end of the Ming era, after much of Shaolin was lost by the end of the Yuan Dynasty (Shaolin was in complete disrepair and suffered much destruction by invaders from north).

TZ Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, and staff forms were all one system (through Li Sou's introduction into Shaolin).

Luohan 18 Hands and Rou Quan was the earliest system, what was preserved from Song dynasty to Yuan Dynasty.

Luohan Quan (which contained some Five Animals) was a new system that was a combination of the other two Shaolin systems (through Jue Yuan's efforts).

Wu Quan (which was lost at Shaolin and went south to Fujian) was another system (through Bai Yufeng's efforts).

During the mid to late Qing many new systems and routines were developed from loads of outside influence and from recombining Shaolin routines to make new ones.

Anything from Pre-Ming times is very hard to find records of since Shaolin was wrecked at least 3-4 times in history.

Hence, the folk material is very important since it preserved a lot of routines.

[Eugene]

Bakc in this Pao Quan

Is there more information about the monk doing Wu Sanlin`s pao quan
who his teacher was, and where he is even ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o

He also called Shi yongxin, he looks like 45/50 or so ...maybe older, a mysterius master with no background info.

The commentaror of the video also said, this form has a mysterius background.

He mentiones that the most famous practicionars of Pao Quan are : Wu Sanlin, Shi Degen,
is the first name he tells : Shi Dejun ? and the last Shi Xing Shu ? Its difficult to hear it correctly.

This is one of the videos I have watched the most and is very inspiring to me.

I watched it today again and noticed, that he holds his mouth real stiff and seems to bite on his teeth during his form, ( i just read today that its a good way to hold your qi in xin yi ba )

Greetings Eugene

[Eugene]

BTW,

Maybe he lives on that golfcourse :)

[David Jamieson]

Sal, a couple fo those videos are marked private and can't be viewed.

thanks.

[LFJ]

is the first name he tells : Shi Dejun ? and the last Shi Xing Shu ? Its difficult to hear it correctly.

shi zhenjun, 29th generation monk.

and shi xingshu, an elder monk of the 32nd generation, is this shi yongxin's master. he is also the well known shi yongzhi's master, along with his brother shi yongxiu who opened a school together nearby yongtai nunnery.

[Eugene]

Thx LFJ for making that clear,

Shi Xing Shu... I saw a picture of him somewhere.

Great information

[LFJ]

yes, pictures of him are rare. he was one of those who stuck around through the dark ages in the past half century.

this shi yongxin has a personal website in chinese, by the way. this is his intro: http://www.shaolinyongxin.com/intro/intro.php

[Eugene]

I was on the website, but I am just starting to learn Chinese lol, google translator made a mess of that website, I got some info, thx :)

I guess the best lineage of Pao Chui Quan is from Wu Sanlin right, is there a dharma name of Wu Sanlin ?

I know that from Xing comes Yong, and before Xing is De right ?

Do you practice this Pao Chui Quan LFJ from Wu Sanlins lineage ...

Peace

[Eugene]

I searched alot for some lyrics of Shaolin Pao Chui, the Wu Shanlin`s set.

But cannot find it with google, or this search engine here, any one know a link ?

I am just blown away each time I watch the video of this master Yongxin doing the set and i have watched it more then 1000 times perhaps.

Its the most mysterius set to look at for me, you see something but you dont. His moves are so clear and perfect, but at the same time it hides the hidden internal ways...

and to read that it is only 2/3 of the set, i wonder how the 3rd part is.

Well, anyway, seeing the video another time with lyrics seems very cool :)

[RenDaHai]

@eugene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

Earlier on the thread, i can't view you tube but i think this contains the third section of pao quan. It starts near the end of the standard version and does the complete third section.

And for your interest;

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTk4MDk1OTY=.html

Its a interesting version of pao quan, The schools master is a disciple of Yang Gui Wu (himself a high student of Shi De Gen and he should have trained with Wushanlin) however this seems different to other Pao quans from Degens lineage and Wusanlins, so i assume it has come form one of the headmasters other teachers...

I like the way their 'san Za chui' looks, but I don't think it shares the practicality and sheer viciousness of the standard version of the move. (the move where the elbows drop in horse stance).

[Eugene]

@RenDaHai,

Thx for the video`s, the first one was the right one, it shows the 3rd set very clear.

I am wondering about Wu Shanlin`s Pao Chui ( Quan ) line. I was reading an article today that he was the second son of Wu Gulun, who brought Xin Yi Ba into the system.

Did Master Wu Shanlin practice his famous Pau Chui set with Xin Yi ba ?

Zhing Qingje, I believe his name is, is on the pictures also doing Xin Yi ba, and shi De Jian and Wu Nanfang al from this lineage. They use different body structures as you said doing the sets.

Wugulun is doing the sets according to there * shen fa * and Xin Yi Ba right ?

The different is so large, for example Shi Yong Wen or Shi Yongxin doing the Shaolin Pao Chui.

Wu Shanlin must have did this set in 2 types of shen fa i suppose, and to one person he showd the classic and the others the wugulun way ?

[LFJ]

Wu Shanlin must have did this set in 2 types of shen fa i suppose, and to one person he showd the classic and the others the wugulun way ?

i dont think wu gulun practiced with the small frame structure at all. i think others who have trained with his son, wu shanlin, have said that he didnt practice that way either.

not sure who started it, but if shi xingxing (zhang qinghe) practiced that way and taught it to shi dejian and shi defang (wu nanfang), it may have even come from his first master, ven. shi chunqian- head monk of jingang monastery who later encouraged him to study from wu shanlin.

[Eugene]

@LFJ

Wugulun and Wu Shanlin didnt practice with the small frame then, maybe it came from this Master and Doctor ChunQian, the second master of ZhangQinghe.

I was just wondering where this kind of shen fa comes from.

@RenDaHai,

That stranger doing Pao Quan, somehow I have seen him do Xiao Hong Quan as well one time on you tube or somewhere.... I have to look for it.
The video seems in the middle between the small and big work.

I dont know so much about the princibles of wushu, that is above my head for now ! :)

[Eugene]

I have 2 video`s that seems to share some kind of movement relating to the Yongxin Pao Quan video maybe..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aci5zxTRYM Wu Nanfang fron 0:46 Sec, opening of the hand going to the side,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o Yongxin, also somekind of opening of the hand and going to the side at 0:20 sec,

And the Pao video of Yongxin at 0:23 sec, I dont know so much about all forms, but do they use this posture also ? I only have seen such a posture in the Xin Yi Ba video of Yang Gui Wu in the buddha hall - fist next to the ear and knee up..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn4uvWGmJo

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, a couple fo those videos are marked private and can't be viewed.

thanks.

Which ones?

[Eugene]

I have been watching these days this video, and it looks alot like the yongxin`s one, his line, most i c, look to the left when pulling the elbows down in mabu...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSAu_y6H81s ( shi de jian, on a wall doing pao quan, from 1:48, VERY impressive !

I hope you guys dont mind me asking alot, I am a lil enthausiastic, and very interested ....

[Eugene]

Do you guys know what kind of fist this is, i copied the stances of Shi Yongxins Pao Quan,

It seems he punches with the side of his pink, he turns his wrist kinda ..
I dont see alot of other performers turn there fist in this way

Sorry that the pictures arent any bigger.

Greetings Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do you guys know what kind of fist this is, i copied the stances of Shi Yongxins Pao Quan,

It seems he punches with the side of his pink, he turns his wrist kinda ..
I dont see alot of other performers turn there fist in this way

Sorry that the pictures arent any bigger.

Greetings Eugene

That's an internal punch, as done in Tai Chi.
Why? Because Tai Chi is partly based on Pao Chui sets.

It can be used a grasp, or a hook, or a pressure point strike.

[RenDaHai]

@ Eugene,

In a lot of the more traditional schools the vast majority of strikes are done this way. Its generally referred to as a hammer. Its kind of like doing a downwards hammer fist but using it in all directions. Its not with the 'pinky' but with edge of the hand and parts of the palm. Its generally quite blunt. If you get it right you can hit a rough brick wall full power without hurting yourself, which you can't do with an ordinary fist. Generally used in powerful movements. Can strike anywhere.

If you watch more of Wugulun schools videos (dejian, wunanfang etc) you will see they almost never use a fist, they nearly always use this type of hammer, even on 'straight' punches.

As Sal said, it is an internal strike. I can't go too far into the specifics, but the wrist is often turned up slightly so the centre of the palm faces into the strike. (this is important).

[Sal Canzonieri]

@ Eugene,

In a lot of the more traditional schools the vast majority of strikes are done this way. Its generally referred to as a hammer. Its kind of like doing a downwards hammer fist but using it in all directions. Its not with the 'pinky' but with edge of the hand and parts of the palm. Its generally quite blunt. If you get it right you can hit a rough brick wall full power without hurting yourself, which you can't do with an ordinary fist. Generally used in powerful movements. Can strike anywhere.

If you watch more of Wugulun schools videos (dejian, wunanfang etc) you will see they almost never use a fist, they nearly always use this type of hammer, even on 'straight' punches.

As Sal said, it is an internal strike. I can't go too far into the specifics, but the wrist is often turned up slightly so the centre of the palm faces into the strike. (this is important).


Exactly.

This Chui, hammer, strike goes back to the Tang or even Sui dynasty in military martial arts.
They had the "red fist" and the "white hammer" back then, which went to Shaolin eventually.
The earliest use in Shaolin is supposed to be in the Rou Xing Chui, Soft Shaped Hammers set, which was said to have been performed for the first Tang emperor, which the Shaolin monks mentioned on the stele were the ones that help usher him into power (by saving the kidnapped nephew and all that).
I have this set showing on my YouTube.com page.
It alternates a soft movement with a hard hammer movement every other posture. Interesting set.

Eventually this stuff morphed into the Hong Quan for soft and the Pao Chui for hard, as other influences merged into Shaolin's Rou Quan material over time.

[Eugene]

Thx alot Mr. Canzonieri and RenDaHai,

i guess that`s why they call it pao, as in explosive fist, or exploding fist, meaning it can break through anything. Can I see it that way ?

Quite a cool fist, never knew anything would excist like this.

I am very happy with these awnsers, and extra information of the background of this hammer fist !

[RenDaHai]

@Sal, Cool! Great info (as always). I wondered about 'Rouxingchui'. THe hammer is such a specific technique you could probably use knowledge of it to identify links between styles.

@Eugene, This technique is very good, I'll tell you a little more about it. When you use a fist you will find you can never punch with full full power. Even against a soft punch bag, if you do a 'superhero' punch (like in marvel comics, i.e a massive swinging punch) you will snap your wrist. The wrist is actually a little delicate. THe 'hammer' however is done in such a way as to eliminate the wrist joint. THe wrist is turned in such a way so that the edge of the hand locks in a straight line with the forearm. Then you turn the forearm in such a way so as to strike with basically the bottom normally unused part of the fist and the outside side of it. So you are basically hitting with the end of the forearm bone. Its like hitting with the end of a pipe. It is blunt, and therefore the force hits 'inside'. Rather than creating a localized sharp stabbing force it shakes the inside. Also because the centre of the palm faces towards the strike it can be used to 'Fa Qi' but we won't go into that. YOu don't have to worry about hurting yourself, you can strike out with absolutely full power. (Using a bare fist it is actually very easy to hurt yourself against the hard parts of the opponents face).

ANy technique in any form from shaolin can be done using the hammer instead of the fist or palm. SOme schools (typically Nanyaun pai) use the hammer alot. Xiyuanpai (the 'standard' shaolin) typically favours the fist but for the technique 'dan bian' it still uses the hammer. (the picture you showed was the technique 'xie xing' it is identical to 'dan bian' except the technique is used accross the body instead of along. Dan bian is one of the absolute most important techniques of shaolin (and many other styles, in fact i don't know of a style that does not use it, even wing chun contains the technique in the form 'xiao nian tao').

Dan bian, xie xing and Pan zhou are all one technique. They are part of the continuos turning waist technique of shaolin, there is a way to link them and form almost a complete striking style using effectively only dan bian.

[RenDaHai]

One thing i forgot to mention about the hammer;

What also makes it an excellent technique is that it can be used in almost any direction successfully.

Bruce lee said that 'the shortest distance between two points is a straight line'. This is absolutely true. However many people have misunderstood this information and taken it to mean that you should always use straight punches. One should understand that all of the joints in the human body provide circular movement. COmbining them to form straight lines is not easy. Often to do a straight punch from certain positions actually does not follow a straight line, you have to prepare the fist. Often the 'straight line' is a short arc of the forearm. In such a situation you will find the hammer more useful than the fist.

If you imagine a position of say blocking high, in order to turn that fist into a straight punch you would have to 're insert' it and follow a circular path. When ironically a straighter faster line would be formed by simply swinging the arm in a short downwards arc. Even though the arc is downwards the force can still be converted to going forewards by a minute final movement of the hammer. Its difficult to describe in words.

[YouKnowWho]

Do anybdy know the relationship between the Shaolin Pao Quan and the long fist Pao family San Lu Pao Chuan 三路炮拳?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbttFZr-X-U

[RenDaHai]

@youknowwho

The main style of the performer is Zha Quan. THis San lu pao quan may refer to the fact that the third road of his zha quan is called pao quan or it may be that he has a series of pao quan of which this is the third form. (san lu means third line).

Actually it looks a little like one of the shaolin forms 'Da Pao quan' as it appears in Tagous books. (referred to as xiao pao by deyang and simple pao quan by shaolin temples books series). But i would have to learn it to compare.

I can't watch the video because its youtube, but i have seen it before many times. Does anyone know if there are videos of his er lu or yi lu pao quans?

The immediately obvious similarities (for those familiar with shaolin da pao quan) are the 'meng hu chu dong' posture on one leg (the double punch looking tech) and the jump spin 360 degrees then gong bu reverse punch. Both of these appear in the shaolin form as well. As do a few of the other techs. ANyone see any other similarities? the most complete version of the shaolin da pao quan is the video by Liuzhenhai, where it is referred to as yilupaoquan. Maybe Sal has that one online.

Actually I'd be interested to know Sals opinion on this one, if your reading, thats a good question by 'youknowwho' , Sal do you think there is anyway this Zha quan Pao quan could be related to the shaolin Da pao quan? I saw the similarities when i first watched this video a long time ago but i didn't think it was enough... but since its on the table now its an interesting question.

[YouKnowWho]

I have heard that there are 10 roads Pao Chuan, but I only know the 3rd road. My friend in NYC knows the 1st road and 2nd road. As far as I know, the long fist Pao family and long fist Zha 查 family are different family. Each has 10 to 12 roads forms.

[RenDaHai]

Yes, that seems about right. THe styles of Pao quan will certainly be related, but i am now wondering if the actual taolu, the exact sequence is related also.....

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know most long fist guys in Taiwan cross train 查花洪弹砲. I have learned 查花弹砲 families except the 洪 family. Some long fist guys called their system as northern Shaolin. The Shaolin and long fist family must have very close relationship.

[Eugene]

Hey RenDaHai,

I have been reading these things you said alot, and its great information, I have experienced somewhat with finding a hammer fist and understand it a little,

In combat i wonder sometimes about a normal fist, i have learned in a time period, that when I punch , I would mainly focus on my two knuckles, to not harm my fingers in an attack, I am lucky I never have to use it in a fight, but in a stressfull situation it seems very hard to focus, where to hit someone on the face and wich presicion, I can imagine in a situation of a fight you want to punch someone and smack someone on the chin with the middle of the fingers under the knockles and have it all broken.

I amagine a fist like the hammer could come handy in such away.

And also I learned then to focus mainly on the point of attack and the 2 knuckles.

You once told that Wugulun uses not there fist as focus but whole arm, I find it hard to get a feeling of correct landing of the fist in this way.

Maybe its just 1 million times practice and it becomes mother nature.

Greetings Eugene :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do anybdy know the relationship between the Shaolin Pao Quan and the long fist Pao family San Lu Pao Chuan 三路炮拳?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbttFZr-X-U

Cha Quan system (Shandong province) has sets with the same name as in Shaolin, but are not related, so they have Pao Quan and Hong Quan and other sets but they are surely all based on Cha Quan ideas of postural movements.

The Taiwanese Long Fist system's sets come originally from an area of Shandong which merged local martial arts (Plum Flower, Hua Quan, Cha Quan. and Mizhong Quan) with Shaolin sets, this happened in the 1600s, when the Qing took over.

An excerpt from my forthcoming book:

Note: Baijiazhi Meihuaquan (白家支梅花拳) – ‘Bai Family Branch Plum Blossom Boxing’ is practiced in South West part of Shandong Province. After reaching Taiwan, this school took the name ‘Beipai Shaolin Meihuaquan’ (北派少林梅花拳) – ‘Northern Faction Shaolin Plum Blossom Boxing ’ or ‘Meihuamen’ (梅花门) – ‘Plum Blossom School’.

Also, ‘Meihua Changquan’ (梅花长拳) – ‘Plum Flower Long Fist’ is the name given to Taiwan to another branch of ‘Meihua Quan’ taught there by Han Qingtang, inside of a wider system that included also other martial art of the north of China, for which its students call ‘Chang Quan’ or ‘Beishaolin’. Han Qingtang learned this ‘Meihua Quan’ in Jimo from Sun Maolin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), two masters originally from Liangshan, Shandong, where the ‘Meihua Shaolin Men’ school was founded by monks from Henan. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizitang (十字趟); Taizu Changquan (太祖长拳). Also, there is training set named ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’. This school in Shandong was composed of material originally from the Henan Shaolin Luohan Quan system.

[hajimesaito]

Shaolin has two different styles: Pao Chui, and Bao quan. The former is translated as "Cannon hammers" and the latter as "Leopard fist". Shaolin Leopard style is lost now and Pao Chui is also only found as a small part of other family styles or martial arts into which it was incorporated.

[RenDaHai]

I just want to add again that if I ever inferred that Wunanfang was anything other than awesome i am sorry.

Many of the masters in shaolin today could improve their skill a great deal by training under Wunanfang.

And As a message to anyone who is thinking of going to or returning to dengfeng and want to study some genuinly genuine shaolin gong fu, PM me and I'll direct you to Wu Nan Fangs school. His style is like Dejians, and he is at least equal in skill.

[Eugene]

Hey RenDaHai,

I have seen alot of video`s of Wunanfang, but i am sure in real its even more better, on a website he says that * Running in the morning is a waste of the qi energy,its all lost then * Do you have an idea about this ?

Its an inspirational man, i saw an interview, where he really seems at peace.

There are alot of videos on the web on how he trains and what they do on a day,
In a book I read from ChenManChing, he desribes also that when you push. dont watch the hand, move your whole body, as you mentioned, from foot to hand its all one move. That was pritty cool when was reading this.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Eugene,

No, don't worry about losing Qi. By tradition in china there are lots of things that cause you to lose qi... But I wouldn't worry about them unless you are in a stage of meditating all day every day, and you will only do this for a few days at a time...

Even then, I know an old qi gong master who runs every morning, so i wouldn't worry.

But still, Wunanfang is very very good, certainly if you come to dengfeng to train i would suggest looking for his school.

[Eugene]

Hey MichaBusch,

thx for making it clear, running away in a fight is handy sometimes.

Eugene

[LFJ]

Totally exhausting yourself by doing a lot of springting, frog jumps, bear crawls and other fun stuff that they do in the morning at most of the schools in Dengfeng will make you lose Qi. But normal jogging is no problem at all.

this sounds like an excuse to avoid bitter training.

you have to expel all the stagnant qi to develop fresh qi.

[Xian]

Hey dont know if its accurate here,but Sifu Wu released two Pao Chuis from Shaanxi school of Pao Quan.
If its not right here, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgq1XRKQ5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJfXAoisWM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vEOYJsx6F0&feature=related


Kind regards,
Xian

[YouKnowWho]

Cha Quan system (Shandong province) has sets with the same name as in Shaolin, but are not related, so they have Pao Quan and Hong Quan and other sets but they are surely all based on Cha Quan ideas of postural movements.

The Taiwanese Long Fist system's sets come originally from an area of Shandong which merged local martial arts (Plum Flower, Hua Quan, Cha Quan. and Mizhong Quan) with Shaolin sets, this happened in the 1600s, when the Qing took over.

An excerpt from my forthcoming book:

Note: Baijiazhi Meihuaquan (白家支梅花拳) – ‘Bai Family Branch Plum Blossom Boxing’ is practiced in South West part of Shandong Province. After reaching Taiwan, this school took the name ‘Beipai Shaolin Meihuaquan’ (北派少林梅花拳) – ‘Northern Faction Shaolin Plum Blossom Boxing ’ or ‘Meihuamen’ (梅花门) – ‘Plum Blossom School’.

Also, ‘Meihua Changquan’ (梅花长拳) – ‘Plum Flower Long Fist’ is the name given to Taiwan to another branch of ‘Meihua Quan’ taught there by Han Qingtang, inside of a wider system that included also other martial art of the north of China, for which its students call ‘Chang Quan’ or ‘Beishaolin’. Han Qingtang learned this ‘Meihua Quan’ in Jimo from Sun Maolin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), two masters originally from Liangshan, Shandong, where the ‘Meihua Shaolin Men’ school was founded by monks from Henan. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizitang (十字趟); Taizu Changquan (太祖长拳). Also, there is training set named ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’. This school in Shandong was composed of material originally from the Henan Shaolin Luohan Quan system.

It's amazing that you understand my longfist system in such a detail. Would you mind to share who your teacher is?

Here is the ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’ to share to those who may be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwp33XpQhQ

[LFJ]

Revisiting this thread I've found there are some questions left unanswered.

I can provide an answer on one, but in doing so raise another question.

Firstly, the unanswered question was just what are the Paoquan sets shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. I can't believe we didn't read what the introduction to them says, but here it is:

There are three sets. Xiaopaoquan, Erlu Xiaopaoquan, and Dapaochui.

The first Xiaopaoquan says it is a simplification of Yilu Paoquan, also known as Sanjie Paoquan (three sections). This longer set was simplified as an introduction to it by monk Yongxiang (永祥) who called the new simplification Xiaopaoquan.

(Ven. Yongxiang lived in Shaolin before 1928 and kept many notes and such which he passed to Ven. Deqian to reorganize in the encyclopedia.)

So what is this Xiaopaoquan shown?

It is what we were calling Dengfeng Paoquan. It is what Shi Deyang calls Xiaopaoquan, what the Tagou books call Dapaoquan, and what Liu Zhenhai called Yilu Paoquan in his VCD.

The Erlu Xiaopaoquan shown in the encyclopedia says it is an expansion upon this Xiaopaoquan. I have never seen this set before.

So both of these Xiaopaoquan are quite modern then, but came from Shaolinsi via Ven. Yongxiang.

There is a Dapaochui shown which says it is much older- from Song Dynasty Abbot Fuju. It was based on Luohan Shibashou, Luohanquan, Da Xiao Hongquan, and Tongbiquan.

This Dapaochui was expanded by monk Zhanju in the Qing Dynasty and has three roads, but is not the long Shaolin Paoquan we are all familiar with. I don't recognize this set either.

Since the other two Xiaopaoquan sets are not like the three section Paoquan we were discussing here (Shi Deyang- Dapaoquan / Tagou- Xiaopaoquan / Liu Zhenhai- Erlu & Sanlu Paoquan), then the three section "Sanjie Paoquan" they were based on must refer to this odd Song Dynasty one shown with them in the Encyclopedia called Dapaochui.

So that's that.............................

But it leaves the question of just where this long Paoquan set we are all familiar with came from.

Another question I have is from the beginning of this thread, Sal mentioned some military Paochui material that was practiced along with Rouquan long ago. And then some Paoquan that was part of Li Sou's Hongquan system that he brought to Shaolin. Later in the Ming/Qing or so, the Paoquan material became separated from the Hongquan and evolved into its own Shaolin Paoquan subsystem today.

My question on this is what happened to the old military Paochui, or did that mix with Li Sou's Paoquan stuff to later become it's own Shaolin Paoquan subsystem? And is this perhaps the material from which comes our familiar long Paoquan set? That would probably place it at best and Ming/Qing Dynasty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Li Sou's pao quan was part of the large Hong quan system from his province.

it's what eventually came into Shaolin and became the roots of tongbi Quan and from that Chen Taiji Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The military Paochui 's loose techniques just got mixed into creating what eventually was Shaolin Long First that existed before the Ming Dynasty. Not a great mystery, it's loose techniques are mostly seen in a lot of Shaolin's oldest routines.

You can see them in the Shaolin Rou Quan Pao Chui set that I have showing on my Youtube page. That set looks different from most other Shaolin sets.

Don't forget the major re-organization that Shaolin went through in the Qing dynasty. Most of the major routines were developed then from reconstituting various sets and reorganizing other sets, obviously like they did with the Pao Quan sets.

[RenDaHai]

Pao Quan are many.

According to my research of visiting various villages in SongShan the long Pao quan we are all familiar with, the one with 3 sections, it is a NanYuan Pai form.

It is NanYuan TiShou PaoQuan. (Rising Cannon Fist of the Southern Abbey). However it is now practiced by everyone and has taken on a Xiyuan flavour. Actually XiYuan (Western Abbey) has its own TiSHouPaoQuan which I know, and it is nothing like the LZH TishouPaoQuan (I dunno WHERE that comes from, all though it closes with some techs from 'PoSimen'). It is (XiyuanTiShou) similar to the long Pao Quan in technique but not in structure. LFJ I showed it to you when you were in china.

To make things more confusing there is also a 'JieSHou' pao quan. This Form (which I also know) is obviously adapted from XiaoHongQuans later sets.

The Other Xiao and Da Pao quans a real mystery to me. The LZH xiao Pao quan is an extremely simple collection of fundamental techniques and is probably a 'Rumen' form if you study Pao Quan exclusively. The Da Pao Quan (as Tagous books say) is common enough in dengfeng and contains some reasonable technique but is specialised and less useful than Tishou or JieShou.


Amongst one (now the predominant) NanYuan sect (Which Separated 360 years ago from Shaolin) TiSHouPaoQuan is still practiced. It is similar to the current Long Pao quan. Xiyuan TishouPao is unusual but still survives. It is based on the same set of technique. So I think we are looking at at least a 400 year history of this PaoQuan material. As to Jie shou Pao quan it is clearly Hong Quan. The other Pao Quans are not related and could come from anywhere, the name is a classic kung Fu name.


My ShiYe is the best authority I know of on Shaolins sets, and he told me that there are 4 styles of Pao Quan in Shaolin. Ti shou Pao Quan (what we currently think of as Pao Quan), Jie Shou Pao Quan (basically Hong Quan) and two other which he has not told me the names of.

Ti shou is Rising hand and Jie SHou is intercepting hand.



Recently looking over many different sects there are common small sequences of technique. For example 1 10 move sequence appears in the Tongbeiquan of some schools, in the Meihua Quan of others and in the LiuHe Quan of others. The moves are the same but the form they appear in is different. There are many such short sequences. It implies to me that the techniques are original but sometime in the last few hundred years the sets have been reorganised. Except with older forms like XiaoHongQuan which is remarkebly similar between for example the 360 year old sect and the current version.

I hope I managed to add something useful. There are many other PaoQuans in SongShan but I beleive my master that they were from 4 fundamental schools of PaoQuan.

EDIT: By the way Tishou and Jie shou pao quan are not just individual forms but distinct substyles. Not all the roads have survived, but I believe Nanyuan Tishou has 4 surviving sets.

[LFJ]

LFJ I showed it to you when you were in china.

I remember you showing me some really neat looking stuff. Just wish my memory were super pictographic!


The Other Xiao and Da Pao quans a real mystery to me. The LZH xiao Pao quan is an extremely simple collection of fundamental techniques and is probably a 'Rumen' form if you study Pao Quan exclusively. The Da Pao Quan (as Tagous books say) is common enough in dengfeng and contains some reasonable technique but is specialised and less useful than Tishou or JieShou.

Not sure about his Xiaopaoquan but that one with the 360 punch and all that is a modern set as stated in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. It was created by Ven. Yongxiang as a simplification of a longer three section Song Dynasty Paoquan also shown in the encyclopedia (which no one recognizes).

He had copied some notes before leaving Shaolin in 1927 to care for his father who had fallen ill. Then in 1981 he passed all the info onto Ven. Deqian to reorganize into the Shaolin Encyc.


EDIT: By the way Tishou and Jie shou pao quan are not just individual forms but distinct substyles. Not all the roads have survived, but I believe Nanyuan Tishou has 4 surviving sets.

So, Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is the name of the long three section Paoquan everyone does today, and it has three more sets in addition to this?

But we still don't quite know what its origin is? Likely Qing Dynasty extracts from Li Sou's Hongquan system?

Also, do you know why it is called Tishou? I've only seen this name in for example Dahongquan as the hand technique that immediately precedes the yaobu / jianbu dancha movement.

LZH's Tishou Paoquan is said to have come from another monastery. I don't remember now, but in the video he mentioned the name of the monastery and the monk who taught it. But again, I'm not sure why they are called Tishou. Do you know?

[RenDaHai]

Well, that would make sense about DaPaoQuan.

Makes sense on LZH's Tishou as well, thats why it seems unrelated to the others.

Yes, according to my research the long PaoQuan is Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan.

Actually I think as performed by LZH is in total 3 sets merged. But some people say it is just 2 sets merged. THere is a performance by GuoDejiang who does the whole thing and splits it into 3 sections. But I don't know, a lot of people vary on this. I only witnessed the 1st road of an old nanyuan version of it, it was shorter, but similar. This year I plan to learn this rare old version if I can, then I will know for certain.

I would imagine the 'JieSHou Pao Quan' is the one related to Hong Quan, as it is obviously hong quan material if you see it. I think TiShou is the classic Shaolin Pao Quan.

Why TiShou? Great question. Of that I have no idea. A lot of the sets are characterized in this way. In my sect we refer to it as simply 'Pao quan' and only add the Tishou if we are talking about other Paoquans. For example there is also Renshou Tong bei, Yaoshou LiuHe, CaShou Luohan e.t.c I think it is probably a very old name (especially if it is in the other temples form as well). It probably had a predominant 'tishou' movement originally, but that has been modified over the years, but the old name remains by right of tradition. It does begin with a 'rising' like movement in all versions....But I don't have a specific technique called 'tishou'. I will ask the NanYuanPai next time I go there.

[LFJ]

I would imagine the 'JieSHou Pao Quan' is the one related to Hong Quan, as it is obviously hong quan material if you see it. I think TiShou is the classic Shaolin Pao Quan.

And by "classic" are we perhaps talking about as early as Song Dynasty?

Ven. Yongxiang's short set was based on an old three-section Paoquan, and there is in fact a three-section Song Dynasty Paoquan set shown there that we don't recognize. I'm assuming that's what it was based on, since they are shown together. There is also an er lu to that short set, made as an expansion on it. But I have never seen this one anywhere either, besides the encyclopedia.

I'm wondering if our Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is not also from Song Dynasty, Abbot Fuju, times...

But that would of course predate Li Sou's Hongquan, hence making it unrelated to the Paoquan material that came from that system.

[RenDaHai]

I'm wondering if our Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is not also from Song Dynasty, Abbot Fuju, times...
.

My assumption was that it is the oldest PaoQuan. It is refferred to in the village along with XiaoHongQuan as the true heritage of JinNaLuoWang. Don't know if that helps.

Again I find myself without my encyclopedia, but I will have to check out those other Pao Quans. I remember them having some strange ones I didn't recognise.

There is so much Pao Quan. TiShou Pao Quans seems to be the most popular. It is a good collection of technique. I think I will pursue it above the others.

[LFJ]

I have an old book from 1983 that shows this set simply as Paochui, and shows all three sections (also all three sections of Dahongquan).

I'm not sure of the accuracy of the third section, but the first two are standard. Nothing wrong at all. The third section has all the similar moves to Liu Zhenhai's video, but does some things in another direction. LZH's video version flipped and flopped some segments of the first two sections. So I'm gonna say, based on the accuracy of the first two sections in this book, that the last section is accurate as well. I don't have much else on hand to compare it to right now though....

In the introduction it speaks of the demo the monks did for the Tang emperor, showing Rouquan and Paochui. It doesn't exactly say this was the set shown, but is suggestive at least. (Why mention that when showing this set, if it's not the one you're talking about?)

Also, it uses the 'red' character for Dahongquan.

[RenDaHai]

Yeah, rare sections get chopped around a bit. The directions don't matter, as long as it is the same moves there abouts contained. I have LZH demo, GuoDeJiangs demo, Tagous book and my own versions of the third section to compare amongst. They are all pretty similar, definately a few changes, and some direction changes but nothing major. Can see its the same set.

PaoChui as a name is certainly old, they may have assumed it is that set, and it may well be the same.... Certainly I think That that Pao Quan is the remanant of the original, but looking at the differences between XHQ's it could well have changed a fair bit.

Dahong as red fist? Well, the person writing down may have heard wrong, There is a red hong Quan in shaolin, but It's no where near as famous.

[LFJ]

That's what I think on this Paochui as well.

Wasn't the Dahonguquan style from Gansu that Li Sou practiced a 'red' Hong, and changed to 'flood' in Shaolin? But anyway, the Dahongquan shown in that book is the three road set that Shi Deyang does.

The author is photographed being trained in front of Shaolin by Xingzheng, Xingshu, and some others. He's also photographed with Dechan several times in the book. It's from 1983, as I said.

[LFJ]

This is a terrible example, because you can hardly see it, but the third section shown here is most like whats in the book I have- directions and everything. It has a "meng hu chu dong" done with the right leg off the ground and leaning into the technique. This is not in the Liu Zhenhai book or video version.

One thing though, in the first section here it switches the placement of the chuaitui section with the later jump to pubu section, just like Liu Zhenhai's version.

Shi Deyang's version, which most people seem to do, have these the other way. As does the old book I have.

Anyway:

http://www.56.com/u72/v_NDA3Nzk4Nzc.html

[kuni]

any body know liu zhen hai lineage does he come from she suxi

[LFJ]

any body know liu zhen hai lineage does he come from she suxi

No, Liu Zhenhai was a folk master from Dengfeng who studied under Shi Degen in his younger years.

[kuni]

thanks alot ,
according to this artikel http://www.poundthemortar.com/shaolinlineage.htm

shi SuXi 1926-2006, DeGen 1914-68, how come that suxi more senior than degen.

so actually the lineage all go to wu gu lun ?

regards,

[GeneChing]

Your generation name only signifies who you took vows under. If you're a De (31st), you took vows under a Su (30th). It doesn't have anything to do with age or seniority. For example, I'm almost the same age the master I took my layman vows under. He's a De so I'm a Xing (32nd). I'm currently training under a former Yan (34th) and he's considerably younger than me.

[LFJ]

I always like to point out that the abbot during the early 1900's, Shi Henglin (1865-1923), was 35th generation!

This website is simply wrong when they place him as 28th generation.
http://www.poundthemortar.com/shaolinlineage.htm

The 28th generation has the character Chun, not Heng.

Although the 29th generation master Shi Zhenxu studied under Shi Henglin when he came to Shaolin Monastery, he didn't take discipleship under him. He was originally ordained under master Shi Chunzhi (28th gen.), hence the "Zhen" 29th generation name. If he had taken discipleship under Shi Henglin, he would have the 36th generation name Miao.

Zhan (26) - Ji (27) - Chun (28) - Zhen (29) - Su (30)
De (31) - Xing (32) - Yong (33) - Yan (34) - Heng (35)

[kuni]

thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

regards,

[RenDaHai]

thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

regards,

Haha, No. This is a common and unfounded opinion. Few were killed. The fire in shaolin was not to kill people but to destroy it as a tactical position. It burned for a month, but people had lots of time to get out. Unfortunately many books and relics were lost. That is all. There is no generation gap.

Also all of Shaolins techniques are and were practiced heavily in the nearby mountain villages of which there are hundreds. They still practice today, untainted.

So really no boxing was lost. What did considerably more damage was the communist era of famine, cultural revolution and the banning of effective boxing. From 1949-1972 traditional Wushu took a step backwards, but it was still practised by the most committed. And many who learned before this period still live today.

Recently the Shaolin Temple catalogued over 1500 traditional forms of Shaolin in SongShan, and there are probably many more. All of which are classified as Shaolin, and none of which are modern era forms. Despite the cultural revolution and the destruction of the Shaolin Temple, SongShan Shaolin is still the largest of any style of GongFu.

Nothing is lost.

[Xian]

@Rendahai

Something most have been lost somehow. Otherwise why are you researching after original forms, tradtional ways to walk them, old master, how the differents systems really had been structured, like the relation between Hong Quan, Pao Quan and so on or how many sets one art had and so on.. I guess I am now reading your research threads for at least one and half year and they are pretty interesting indeed. And after all I could learn from you, you can say a lot but not that nothing is lost of Shaolin even if there are about 1500 forms. Something is missing.


Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

@Xian

There is an evolution of the arts of course. There are existing links that can be traced, and "missing" links which can be (and have been) found to help continue that tracing as far back as possible. We are attempting to trace those links, rather than simply jump gaps.

What sometimes makes things seem to be missing is the evolution they have gone through along with name-changes, history borrowing/rewriting/misunderstanding and all.

[Shen Yi]

Hi,

I'm the author of the Poundthemortar site and just wanted to let you know I have corrected the information about Shi HengLin. Thanks for pointing that out.

[LFJ]

thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

regards,

Not sure what generation gap you are referring to. Some dates:

Yuan Shikai died in 1916, before any of the following events.

The burning of the temple under warlord Shi Yousan happened in 1928.

Shi Henglin died in 1923, before the burning.

Shi Miaoxing died in 1934, after the burning.

Shi Zhenxu died in 1955, well after the burning.

The generation difference between Shi Henglin and Shi Zhenxu is irrelevent, because Shi Zhenxu was of the 29th generation, while Shi Henglin (although older in age) was of the 35th generation.

All this means is that in Shi Henglin's line of ordination, the monks took disciples sooner (35), whereas in Shi Zhenxu's line there are fewer over time, hence a fewer number of generations (29).

Both Shi Henglin and Shi Zhenxu's lineage can be traced back master-by-master without a gap. My master's line comes from Shi Zhenxu, and we have the names of each monk in order back to Xueting Fuyu as the 1st gen. transmitting the Caodong school of Chan, and even further back to the 6 Chan patriarchs to Bodhidharma as 1st Chan patriarch, and if you want to press it, Bodhidharma's lineage as the 28th patriarch of the Dhyāna school is listed name-by-name in an unbroken line back to Śākyamuni Buddha himself, in the Platform Sutra of Huineng, including Vasubandhu (21st patriarch of Dhyāna and founder of the Yogācāra school) and Nāgārjuna (14th patriarch of Dhyāna and founder of the Mādhyamaka school). :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

But counting 30-some generations from Xueting Fuyu as the beginning of the Caodong sect in Shaolin is enough. :p

The Shaolin generations are a line of ordination however. Martial arts instruction has a lot of overlap, including lots of folk masters as well. So really, generation of ordination often has little to do with the transmission of martial arts, as each master may learn from a number of different monks and folk masters regardless of generation of ordination, which is a separate topic.

[kuni]

thank you for your comprehensieve answer?
do any body know from where come the black tiger form black tiger is one of the tiger in chinese mytology http://www.whats-your-sign.com/chinese-animal-symbolism-tiger.html

wang leishen lineage( liuhe ziran) has this from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWyLHbjdwXQ

indonesian chinese shantung shaolin also has this http://bookmoving.com/book/shantung-black-tiger-a-shaolin-fighting-art-north-china_31612.html.

although there form are different they have many similarity.

Does black tiger has special meaning in henan shaolin?

[RenDaHai]

@Rendahai

Something most have been lost somehow. Otherwise why are you researching after original forms, tradtional ways to walk them, old master, how the differents systems really had been structured, like the relation between Hong Quan, Pao Quan and so on or how many sets one art had and so on.. I guess I am now reading your research threads for at least one and half year and they are pretty interesting indeed. And after all I could learn from you, you can say a lot but not that nothing is lost of Shaolin even if there are about 1500 forms. Something is missing.


Kind regards,
Xian

Don't get me wrong, its not easy to find, but its not lost. All the techniques are preserved, but yeah the forms have changed and evolved. And to better understand the essence of the techniques I like to see how techniques are used in the different sects. The general level of the Wulin fraternity may have regressed, and forms go extinct al the time, but the best of them is always preserved in some way. Its something that needs work, but there are always a few dedicated people.

I suppose if one travels to Shaolin now, it is not as shaolin should be, and in that way something is missing. But it can be rebuilt and rekindled, its not lost forever. There is always someone, somewhere who knows how.

[RenDaHai]

Does black tiger has special meaning in henan shaolin?



In Shaolin Black Tiger means techniques which are hidden. The black is not so much the colour of the tiger but the fact that a Tiger is hidden in the darkness. When you position yourself so that the off hand prevents the opponent seeing or parrying the striking hand... This would be an example of a black tiger technique.

We also have White tiger. These are techniques which are obvious. The attack directly with no deception or disguise. Often used are techniques which can strike slowly and still cause damage. They move slowly so are not perceived as a threat and are hidden in plane sight. Feints are also typical examples of White tiger strikes.

[kuni]

thank you very much. do you also know the meaning of chin lung (green /coil dragon) form and mei hua these from is very common in chinese martial arts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc38Hr6EqBo

[Xian]

But it can be rebuilt and rekindled, its not lost forever. There is always someone, somewhere who knows how.

Yeah with this I can agree, thanks

Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFNJeYcfFgQ

Rising Dragon Cannon Fist ? What about that set ? Any relation ?



Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

This video would be more relevant in the thread on Shaolin Xin Yi related sets (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55550&highlight=xin+yi+related).

That set is attributed to Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike, 1588-1662) of Shanxi, which you can clearly see the style bears similarity to Xingyiquan and the Shaolin Xinyiquan material, both of which are said to have been influenced (created) by him.

[Xian]

This video would be more relevant in the thread on Shaolin Xin Yi related sets (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55550&highlight=xin+yi+related).

That set is attributed to Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike, 1588-1662) of Shanxi, which you can clearly see the style bears similarity to Xingyiquan and the Shaolin Xinyiquan material, both of which are said to have been influenced (created) by him.

Ah sorry I just put the video in this thread in reference to the name of the form. So one could say more something like "Xinyi Pao Quan "? I am hoping one can tell a bit more in the relevant thread.


Thanks,
Xian

[LFJ]

Paoquan is a common term, but by the looks of it, I don't think it has anything to do with Shaolin Paoquan. More in the Xinyi thread.

[Matthew]

i dont think wu gulun practiced with the small frame structure at all. i think others who have trained with his son, wu shanlin, have said that he didnt practice that way either.

not sure who started it, but if shi xingxing (zhang qinghe) practiced that way and taught it to shi dejian and shi defang (wu nanfang), it may have even come from his first master, ven. shi chunqian- head monk of jingang monastery who later encouraged him to study from wu shanlin.

Interesting, but which students said this? Was it his longer term students is probably most relevant, as Wu Shanlins very own sons passed this "small frame" onto master wu himself before learning from Xing Xing.


I don't think Shi De Gen or shorter term students would be a good reflection of the core style and were less likely to have been taught the core shenfa.

[Xian]

Shaolin Zhou Tong Pao Quan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm1E0h4gYj0&feature=plcp


Shàolín Zhōu Dòng Pào Quán
This form was almost lost and today is rarely seen.
According to tradition this form was passed down to the monks at Shaolin by Master Zhao Tong (the better known Ying Zhua Pao Quan form is also attributed to Zhou Tong).
Shaolin tradition says that Zhou Tong learned the martial arts and military skills passed down from three kingdoms period General Jiang Wei as a Child in the Tongguan area of Shaanxi After this he Journeyed to Shaolin where he studied under master Tan Zheng Fang. Later he became known by the name "Iron Arm" Zhou Tong and travelled around mastering a great number of esoteric martial skills which he passed down to his students. Among his students were many famous heroes including several of the outlaw heroes of Liang Shan (the Water Margin) such as "Leopard Head" Lin Chong, "Jade Unicorn" Lu Junyi, "Sickly Officer" Sun Li, and "Pilgrim"/"Tiger Fighting Hero" Wu Song.
However he is best known as the teacher of great General Yue Fei who was his last and best student to Whom he Taught Archery, Boxing, Stick Fighting, and military strategy among other things.
Besides being remembered at Shaolin he is also said to have passed on Chuo Jiao and Fanzi Quan to Yue Fei and several of the Liangshan Heroes. He is said to have Learned Chuo Jiao from it's creator, Taoist Deng Liang. Besides this he also is supposed to have passed on many forms of martial Qigong and to have taught Yue Fei a system of Qinna that he used as the basis for his Eagle Claw Methods
However Most of What Is traditionally told of him appears to Be from Ming and Qing dynasty popular novels.
According to Song Dynasty material he was Yue Fei's second teacher in the military arts from his first teacher he had learned military spear methods and from Zhou Tong he learned Archery and along with military strategy. Yue Fei was said to be Zhou Tong's favorite student to whom he gave two of his best bows. After his death Yue Fei mourned him greatly offering sacrifices of wine and meat twice a month at his grave and firing three arrows in his memory each time.
So Basically in the early material Zhou Tong is only described as a local hero from the Anyang area of Henan province(not Shaanxi) who was a teacher of Archery and military skills to Yue Fei. There is no mention of any Kungfu until Hundreds of Years later.



Shaolin Lao Pao Quan from a competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbruVoBstoc&feature=plcp


Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan: (Looks very similar to how Deyang does it I think)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O3pu3RedWs&feature=plcp


Dejian doing Pao Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQGeukYWlEI&feature=plcp


Best regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

@by the way.

I reread that thread for the third time in the last months I guess. Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

And what about the Ying Zhao Pao Quan mentioned earlier by Sal ? I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).
Very interesting but still a bit confusing.


Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.


Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

Yes. Put together it makes one long set, usually broken into three roads, of which the third is rarely seen. As I remember, his Erlu VCD showed the first 2/3 or so, and the Sanlu finished. It has been a while since I've seen it though.


I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).

"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr? :D

In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

[RenDaHai]

I think the Zhou TOng looks familiar... I think I know the area it may be from, looks like nanyuan pai.... Also it has a similarity with YingZHua pao Quan in the way it uses GuiBUQiXing-Danbian, Unusual for a Shaolin form, but common in other styles.


@LFJ

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

[Xian]

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.

Yeah I also work on the Pao Quan so I saw the similarities. It looks basically like a shorter version I guess, with some moves applied unsually(at least for me).
I was interested in the History TeaSerpenti researched with it. I mean I know that many arts are attributed to famous persons. But I think calling my art Zhou Tong Pao Quan is really a claim.



"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr? :D


What the ?:D First time reading it I thought I might have confused English with German while writing, wouldnt have been impossible :D Google Translator ?

Nein, ich suche eben das Zitat von Sal heraus:




2. I have a book by Liu Zhenhai (I have many by him) and one of them has three sets in it of Pao Quan, which are labelled Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu Pao Quan!
The book is Shaolin Quan Gun Dao Xie Tao Lu Jing Cui, 1990, isbn 7563901140.

Okay, so I dug them up today and have been comparing them to the videos.

- The Yi Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is exactly his Ying Zhua Pao Quan set, with no changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

- The Er Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a much more detailed version of the Tagou Dao Pao Quan set (which is the Yi Lu set in his videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

- The San Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a full 76 posture set / 139 movements, and is the most complete version I have ever seen of the Xiao Pao Quan set (Tagou), much more detailed and with all the transition movements shown that aren't even in his VCD videos of the set (his Er Lu and San Lu videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

In my opinion, this is the definitive version of the long Pao Quan set, much more complete, smooth, and coherent than the Tagou version or of any videos.

By the way, Liu Zhenhai says that the Eagle Claw Pao Quan set dates back from the Song Dynasty and was created by a monk named Zhao.
Also, he states that the Siezing Hand Pao Quan set comes down from the teachings of high monk Miao Ju.

I spoke of this qoute from Sal. See what I mean ?


In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

Sorry maybe my post was not clear. I did spoke of Liu Zhenhais Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu as shown in VCD. As far as I could figure out his Pao Quan Er and San are basically Xiao Pao Quan.

Thanks and Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

@Xian: Mein Deutsch ist immer noch sehr schlecht, weil ich letzte Woche gerade angefangen habe, Deutsch zu lernen! :eek:

I see now, because I didn't have the book. But it sounds like it looks like this:

According to the book:

Yilu = Yingzhao Paoquan
Erlu = Dapaoquan
Sanlu = Xiaopaoquan (in full)

According to the VCDs:

Yilu = Dapaoquan
Erlu = 1st 2/3 of Xiaopaoquan
Sanlu = final 1/3 of Xiaopaoquan
And Yingzhao Paoquan stands alone.

Of course, the book makes more sense, and shows more detail than the VCDs. The three sets in full should be separate lines like this. But not that they are "roads" of the same system.

[LFJ]

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

I think all the info I had on him came from the Encyclopedia or was related to it. But I seem to have accidentally erased it from this computer. I just have an empty folder pointing to it. I had an electronic version. It must be on an external harddrive somewhere.

The main thing I remember reading was that he was in Shaolin prior to the 1928 incident, and retained his information all of which in the 80's he passed onto Shi Deqian to compile in the Encyclopedia, and performed many of the sets as reference for the drawing and writing the steps.

In the intro to the short Paoquan set it said he created it as an introductory set for his students. At some point in the Encyc. it may have named some of them. Don't remember. Will have to look through it again.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsKSs5FxR_0&list=UUmR0ShS4iz7OW4XVdZr5abQ&index=1

Looks like he is using claws in some positions.


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

I think all the info I had on him came from the Encyclopedia or was related to it. But I seem to have accidentally erased it from this computer. I just have an empty folder pointing to it. I had an electronic version. It must be on an external harddrive somewhere.
read or get its OCRed&Bookmarked PDF electronic version from here:

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts, 4-volume set + searchable text & English index bookmarks (http://www.scribd.com/collections/4133108)

[The 1st one]

read or get its OCRed&Bookmarked PDF electronic version from here:

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts, 4-volume set + searchable text & English index bookmarks (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0Bxl1KoIWMP3-OGE3TFNqUUxEYzg/edit)

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[SHemmati]

hey, thanks.