Power Of The Squat

[ChinaBoxer]

i’ve now included a “Physical Fitness – Exercises” category in the drop down menu of my tutorial. It will pertain to exercises, conditioning, nutrition etc…that i personally follow and that work for me to enhance my martial arts training.

Today’s subject has to do with “how to do the squat movement” correctly, to avoid injury. I will also go into many key points that relate directly to the wing chun stance and address common mistakes to avoid during training.

video here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10...-of-the-squat/)

take care and peace!


Jin

[IRONMONK]

The weight on the heels definitely puts less stress on the knee joints
However isn't it slower to move forward compared to when you have the weight in the front end of the feet ?

[HumbleWCGuy]

My only problem with any squat video is that they all assume that all people have a proper build to squat a certain way. Squatting is a complex movement that requires a complex ratio of levers torso, femur, and tibia that gives balance to the person and allows the movement to happen. The standard position isn't one that everyone can even get into. In essence, people with incorrect ratios of levers squat but they can't really activate any muscle fibers from the position. This is a waste, and yet they will have people tell them that they have to squat to get big.

What I would like to see in a complete video is information on who should squat, squat work-arounds that adjust the levers, and alternate exercises for those who can't get into the proper squat position. I would also like to see a squat video that shows people how to use a weight belt because almost no one knows how.

[ChinaBoxer]

My only problem with any squat video is that they all assume that all people have a proper build to squat a certain way. Squatting is a complex movement that requires a complex ratio of levers torso, femur, and tibia that gives balance to the person and allows the movement to happen. The standard position isn't one that everyone can even get into. In essence, people with incorrect ratios of levers squat but they can't really activate any muscle fibers from the position. This is a waste, and yet they will have people tell them that they have to squat to get big.

What I would like to see in a complete video is information on who should squat, squat work around that adjust the levers, and alternate exercises for those who can't get into the proper squat position. I would also like to see a squat video that shows people how to use a weight belt because almost no one knows how.
interesting view point, thanks for sharing that. but like i said, this video on squatting and everything else on my tutorial is only what works for ME, and it may not necessarily work for you. but i do get your point and think it's 100% valid.

[IRONMONK]

Is it OK to squat with your toes pointing out ?

[HumbleWCGuy]

interesting view point, thanks for sharing that. but like i said, this video on squatting and everything else on my tutorial is only what works for ME, and it may not necessarily work for you. but i do get your point and think it's 100% valid.

Yea, I was just getting some pent up frustrations off my chest. Not really related to your video per say. Qualifying a squat video with "what works for me." is exactly the right way to go about it IMO.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Is it OK to squat with your toes pointing out ?

The standard recommendation is for the toes to point out slightly.

[dirtyrat]

Respectfully, I don't really see how the squat is a complex movement. Granted, it will be easier for some people than others. It can even be culturally. Americans are use to sitting in chairs whereas certain cultures squat down on a daily basis so they're use to it.

Its acutually a simple movement imho. I think its just a matter of getting use to it.
People tend to make things more complicated than they really are.

It reminds me of a story of a centipede crawling through a garden ran into another bug who asked the centipede how does it coordinate all those legs. When the centipede had to think about it, he found that he couldn't move!

[ChinaBoxer]

Respectfully, I don't really see how the squat is a complex movement. Granted, it will be easier for some people than others. It can even be culturally. Americans are use to sitting in chairs whereas certain cultures squat down on a daily basis so they're use to it.

Its acutually a simple movement imho. I think its just a matter of getting use to it.
People tend to make things more complicated than they really are.

It reminds me of a story of a centipede crawling through a garden ran into another bug who asked the centipede how does it coordinate all those legs. When the centipede had to think about it, he found that he couldn't move!you are right, the squat is a "simple" movement, but simple does not mean "easy". heck, a lead jab in boxing is "simple" to do, but does it make it easy?

[dirtyrat]

you are right, the squat is a "simple" movement, but simple does not mean "easy". heck, a lead jab in boxing is "simple" to do, but does it make it easy?

point taken

[Knifefighter]

i’ve now included a “Physical Fitness – Exercises” category in the drop down menu of my tutorial. It will pertain to exercises, conditioning, nutrition etc…that i personally follow and that work for me to enhance my martial arts training.

Today’s subject has to do with “how to do the squat movement” correctly, to avoid injury.

Rather than avoiding injury, the method you are describing increases the chances of injury... not to mention decreasing the strengthening effect of the exercise.

What is your exercise science background?

[bennyvt]

sorry at work so cant see the video but from the questions.
Its normally advised to have the feet pointed slightly out to ensure the knee goes towars the middle of the feet not into the middle of your centre.
Squat is classed as a complex movement (or compuond movement as it uses muscles that go over several joints and are using several muscles in the exercise, a bicep curl being a simple exercise as it isolates only two muscles. More about the amount of muscles activated not how hard it is to do.

[dirtyrat]

sorry at work so cant see the video but from the questions.
Its normally advised to have the feet pointed slightly out to ensure the knee goes towars the middle of the feet not into the middle of your centre.
Squat is classed as a complex movement (or compuond movement as it uses muscles that go over several joints and are using several muscles in the exercise, a bicep curl being a simple exercise as it isolates only two muscles. More about the amount of muscles activated not how hard it is to do.

thanks for the explanation. though i still don't see how relevant it is. when i move i don't think about the amount of muscle i'm using. i just move. when my boys were born, i let myself go. got fat and really out of shape. when i got back into it, i found that i had to take baby steps to get back certain movements. its all part of the process.

maybe someone can explain it better....

[Wayfaring]

If you want a real resource for the best positions for some of the basic lifts, check out Mark Rippletoe. His book "Starting Strength" is a great place to start. Here is a video that has all the checkpoints of a proper squat:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Squat_Form_Check_Compilation

[Mr Punch]

When I clicked on the link, it says:
Woops!

Sorry, but what you are looking for doesn't seem to be here. Please try again.

Dirtyrat: I can't really see how anyone could explain it any better than Benny already has! But let me try. It is called a compound exercise (some people say complex but most say compound) because it works a large number of large muscles. A simple exercise works a small number of (usually) small muscles.

E.g.: A simple exercise (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Biceps/DBCurl.html) (the curl - please see the muscles that are worked which are listed on the right).

E.g.2: A compound exercise (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat.html) (the squat).

Wayfaring: isn't it Rippetoe?

Humble: the best way to increase your flexibility enough to be able to do proper squats is.... drum roll... to do proper squats! The more you do squats without hitting your full range of movement, the more you are reinforcing bad muscle memory, and increasing wear, tear and inhibition of your nervous system.

Do this (http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=1856085) and then maybe you can progress to this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744#).

:)

[Mr Punch]

thanks for the explanation. though i still don't see how relevant it is. when i move i don't think about the amount of muscle i'm using. i just move. when my boys were born, i let myself go. got fat and really out of shape. when i got back into it, i found that i had to take baby steps to get back certain movements. its all part of the process.

maybe someone can explain it better....As for how relevant it is as to whether it's compound or simple:

Compound exercises rock. They help you in everything you do in everyday life. They make you stronger as a whole (as there is some systemic adaptation to big compound exercises, meaning that if you have a programme of just deads, you curl will also improve, whereas just curls... only your curls will improve, and you may actually end up weakening your back, shoulders, triceps, etc etc)

Simple exercises blow. They have much less crossover into everyday life. They only have use for very simple actions. They increase your likelihood of injury. They sometimes do have use for assisting your bigger lifts (i.e. curls to cleans), but generally they are strictly for bodybuilders.

A few chin-ups (compound exercise which really hits shoulders, upper back and arms inc biceps) with a few kilos tied round my waist are way better than a few curls (simple ex which hits biceps, and prob stresses my lower back).

[Scott R. Brown]

Squats and Deadlifts also stimulate testosterone release which will make you bigger and more manly!:)

[dirtyrat]

Dirtyrat: I can't really see how anyone could explain it any better than Benny already has! But let me try. It is called a compound exercise (some people say complex but most say compound) because it works a large number of large muscles. A simple exercise works a small number of (usually) small muscles.

E.g.: A simple exercise (the curl - please see the muscles that are worked which are listed on the right).

E.g.2: A compound exercise (the squat).

As for how relevant it is as to whether it's compound or simple:

Compound exercises rock. They help you in everything you do in everyday life. They make you stronger as a whole (as there is some systemic adaptation to big compound exercises, meaning that if you have a programme of just deads, you curl will also improve, whereas just curls... only your curls will improve, and you may actually end up weakening your back, shoulders, triceps, etc etc)

Simple exercises blow. They have much less crossover into everyday life. They only have use for very simple actions. They increase your likelihood of injury. They sometimes do have use for assisting your bigger lifts (i.e. curls to cleans), but generally they are strictly for bodybuilders.

A few chin-ups (compound exercise which really hits shoulders, upper back and arms inc biceps) with a few kilos tied round my waist are way better than a few curls (simple ex which hits biceps, and prob stresses my lower back).

Not quite what I was asking for but thanks anyway.

[bennyvt]

a squat replicates the normal movement while walking, shuffling, extension of kicks etc. Although we tend to only use the movement in certain ranges the squat is a good exercise to train full range of motion. It incorperates hip stability as opposed to the leg extension machines. I personally rather one legged squat with less wieght as it really teaches waist stability. The fact you are holding weight also activates the core to keep it up. Squats are normally used for a preperation, hypertrophy and max strength portions of a program with clean and jerks, plyometrics and other things for power and variety. But for a single exercise it teaches a lot.
One main point is the ability to activate the gluteals. Tilting the pelvis up and clenching the gluts(sound familar) when at the bottom of the squat, will help to activate these muscles.
Feet angle can change the resulting muscles of the quad which are worked more. Feet in will tend to work the VMO more which can lead to overdevelopment and knee problems (I got tracking problems and had to rehab)hence most advising to have the feet slightly out.
There have been studies done on how far you should go. Most say thighs parrell to ground, other say full ROM. When dealing without general population do the simple one as the chances of the person using the full range is nil, as long as stretching is done flexibility can be good. Any athlete that needs to be powerfull in the full range like olympic lifters, gymnasts etc (or us for close kicking, knees etc) the full range should be used but you need to build a proper base before doing the movement. Start without gluteal activation exercise, learn to do squat without weight properly. The idea is to get the right muscles working and the movement correct and then build up the strength to to it properly. There are heaps more especially after the squat with plyometrics and powerlifts that when it gets fun.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Respectfully, I don't really see how the squat is a complex movement. Granted, it will be easier for some people than others. It can even be culturally. Americans are use to sitting in chairs whereas certain cultures squat down on a daily basis so they're use to it.

Its acutually a simple movement imho. I think its just a matter of getting use to it.
People tend to make things more complicated than they really are.

It reminds me of a story of a centipede crawling through a garden ran into another bug who asked the centipede how does it coordinate all those legs. When the centipede had to think about it, he found that he couldn't move!

Why are we talking about it if it is not complex?

[dirtyrat]

Why are we talking about it if it is not complex?

i was just wondering what difference it made if a movement is complex or simple. moving is moving, no matter how many muscles are involved. nobody thinks about what muscles need to be contracted or flexed when moving about in their daily lives or in fighting for that matter. there's no time.

just forget i ask. thanks again.

[Mr Punch]

I've told you why it matters, and you said that wasn't what you were looking for. What are you looking for? Validation that any resistance against your muscles is fine as your body doesn't differentiate? While that's true, it's not to say that all exercises are equal. They're not, for reasons that myself and Scott have explained.

Furthermore, how many and what muscles are involved in a movement IS important: not in your fighting, of course, because as you've pointed out (the blindingly obvious) you don't have time to think about it in a fight, and nobody is suggesting you do; but in your training. And that's whether training your body directly in terms of power and muscle function, or in training your fighting skills. You train your muscles in safety and under controlled pressure so they do what they're supposed to do when under real pressure in danger.

This thread is about squats, which is one of those training methods.

So, basically, what's your point?

[dirtyrat]

Mr Punch, your response assumes that i didn't understand Benny's explanation. :confused:

Like I said in my previous post "forget it". thanks.:D

[Knifefighter]

Simple exercises blow. They have much less crossover into everyday life. They only have use for very simple actions. They increase your likelihood of injury. They sometimes do have use for assisting your bigger lifts (i.e. curls to cleans), but generally they are strictly for bodybuilders.

All of these statements are incorrect.

Some simple movements have more crossover to real life than do their complex movement counterparts. The average person is much more likely to perform an elbow flexion (as is done in a standing arm curl) lifting motion in his daily activities than he is to perform a shoulder flexion, adduction (as is done in a pull down).

Rather than increasing injury risk, single joint exercises are also a good way to prevent injuries, as they can be used to balance out muscle imbalances that occur in sports and every day activities.

Isolation exercises also assist in sports such as grappling that require several isolation movements.

[Knifefighter]

i was just wondering what difference it made if a movement is complex or simple. moving is moving, no matter how many muscles are involved. nobody thinks about what muscles need to be contracted or flexed when moving about in their daily lives or in fighting for that matter. there's no time.

just forget i ask. thanks again.

Specificity is the key. You have to look at what the goal is and what movements are specific to that goal. If you are training for a sport, you need to mimic the motions of that sport. If you want to avoid injury, you also need to mimic the opposing motions, as well as to train specifically weak areas that are prone to injury.

Multijoint and single joint (which usually aren't really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.

[taai gihk yahn]

single joint (which usually aren't really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.
exactly; there is really no such thing as a "single joint" movement: for example, anytime you move at all, you engage spinal joints at the very least as stabilizers,

in fact from a clinical perspective, it is sometimes easier for people to do "complex" movements that operate in context of their particular dysfunctional patterns of movement than it is for them to do isolated "single" joint movements that operate outside of that; for example, someone might have no problem at all doing a sit to stand with their left leg forward (a complex, multi-joint movement), but can't do it at all with the right leg forward, and then when you have them try do isolated gluteal contraction on the right leg, which is a simple / single-joint muscle, they can't do it, and fire hamstrings instead (which are a multi-joint one); so in this case, you need to train the single joint, simple action of gluteus max doing hip extension, and you may need to go back to prone and do it, because if you tried it in standing, they would never be able to do it;

simple-stuff is needed to do the complex stuff - but once you get it and put it all together, you will naturally tend to emphasize the complex because it mimics daily living functional patterns;

[dirtyrat]

All of these statements are incorrect.

Some simple movements have more crossover to real life than do their complex movement counterparts. The average person is much more likely to perform an elbow flexion (as is done in a standing arm curl) lifting motion in his daily activities than he is to perform a shoulder flexion, adduction (as is done in a pull down).

Rather than increasing injury risk, single joint exercises are also a good way to prevent injuries, as they can be used to balance out muscle imbalances that occur in sports and every day activities.

Isolation exercises also assist in sports such as grappling that require several isolation movements.


Specificity is the key. You have to look at what the goal is and what movements are specific to that goal. If you are training for a sport, you need to mimic the motions of that sport. If you want to avoid injury, you also need to mimic the opposing motions, as well as to train specifically weak areas that are prone to injury.

Multijoint and single joint (which usually aren't really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.


exactly; there is really no such thing as a "single joint" movement: for example, anytime you move at all, you engage spinal joints at the very least as stabilizers,

in fact from a clinical perspective, it is sometimes easier for people to do "complex" movements that operate in context of their particular dysfunctional patterns of movement than it is for them to do isolated "single" joint movements that operate outside of that; for example, someone might have no problem at all doing a sit to stand with their left leg forward (a complex, multi-joint movement), but can't do it at all with the right leg forward, and then when you have them try do isolated gluteal contraction on the right leg, which is a simple / single-joint muscle, they can't do it, and fire hamstrings instead (which are a multi-joint one); so in this case, you need to train the single joint, simple action of gluteus max doing hip extension, and you may need to go back to prone and do it, because if you tried it in standing, they would never be able to do it;

simple-stuff is needed to do the complex stuff - but once you get it and put it all together, you will naturally tend to emphasize the complex because it mimics daily living functional patterns;

These make sense. Thanks guys!

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue that "clouded" the whole "compound VS isolation" exercises thing was people that were to freaking lazy to do the "big moves" like the squat.
You had guys that couldn't even chin their own BW doing curls, guys that had 20" thighs doing leg extensions and both doing it FOR SIZE !
There is, like Chirs and Dale mentioned, nothing wrong with "isolation moves", and Dale mentioned a perfect example when he said the curl, most be curl more time a day then they "pull-up".
Its not the exercise it is WHAT the exercise is been done for.

[karateguy]

Squats are a very complicated exercise, but it works.. its definitely a compound exercise that everyone needs to try..

[ChinaBoxer]

i've been weightlifting for 27 years and a personal trainer for the past 12 years. the debate over "compound" or "isolation" exercises all boil down to "what are your goals?"

if you are looking to go into "bodybuilding" then you have no choice, you must do both, because their goal is to gain "symmetry, so isolation exercises, such as curls, extensions allow them to correct imbalances.

if you are a weightlifter who does it to enhance their martial arts, such as myself. then you want to focus primarily on "compound" exercises, because they recruit more muscle groups to do the lifts, which is what we want. we want to do "whole body" exercises or "compound" exercises which require you to use as many muscle groups as possible such as the deadlift and squats.

i'm not saying you can't also do bicep curls or tricep extensions because they do have their place (usually after a compound movement) to get a muscle to "failure".

regardless, make sure you have fun and lift in a safe manner. take care and peace!

oh, and "knifefighter" you keep avoiding my question like you avoiding squats in the gym..."how long did you train with Hawkins Cheung and when?" so far i've answered all your noob questions, yet you haven't answered my one question.

Jin

[Knifefighter]

oh, and "knifefighter" you keep avoiding my question like you avoiding squats in the gym..."how long did you train with Hawkins Cheung and when?" so far i've answered all your noob questions, yet you haven't answered my one question.
I didn't see where you asked me that question. I trained with him when I was at the old Kali academy in the late 70's, early 80's. He used to come in and teach there. Why do you ask?

As far as being a trainer, what is your exercise science background?

[Tom Kagan]

A weightlifter lifts weights, but any ol' person who lifts weights should not be referred to as a weightlifter. Here's to the 13th year of being a personal trainer bringing the knowledge of who is correctly called a weightlifter. :D :D (.... and to the knowledge of the difference of base vs. balance while we're at it.)

[kungfublow]

This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don't see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?

[HumbleWCGuy]

This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don't see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?

There is a such thing as too big, but you don't get that way from natural weight lifting. When you lift weights you will lose some flexibility. You won't lose speed as long as you train your speed.

[kungfublow]

There is a such thing as too big, but you don't get that way from natural weight lifting. When you lift weights you will lose some flexibility. You won't lose speed as long as you train your speed.

What types of drills do you do to train your speed?

[couch]

You don't see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?

Look at the top MMA fighters. They're lifting, sometimes weights and sometimes bodyweight without adverse affect - only the contrary: added affect.

Don't believe the Kung-Fu hype of 500+ years ago. :)

[kungfublow]

Look at the top MMA fighters. They're lifting, sometimes weights and sometimes bodyweight without adverse affect - only the contrary: added affect.

Don't believe the Kung-Fu hype of 500+ years ago. :)


The MMA guys are lifting to increase muscle stamina. From what I've seen they concentrate on reps and not weight. They are trying to get lean not big. I'm more talking about guys trying to get big losing their quickness.

[anerlich]

Huge muscles mean your heart and lungs have to work harder to supply them with oxygen, etc.

MMA fighters want to get strong, not huge. If you're trying to make weight, you don't want to pack on muscle for show. Same with lightweight Oly weightlifters and powerlifters who don't want to get huge, just strong.

You can use weights to get a lot stronger without gaining significant size or losing flexibility.

I agree that hardcore bodybuilding and training for combat sports are going to conflict. All that time pumping iron that would probably be better spent on other things, for one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don't see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?

Too much weight lifiting can make your MA suffer in the sense that you devote more time to ST than to MA.
Getting too big has to do with diet, m any people ST and are very strong and don't put on a pound, again to do with diet.
Flexability is not compromized by strength or adding muscle.
Years ago they did a study of flexability of Olympic athletes and, aside from gymnasts (duh!), the most flexable were the olympic lifters.
People who are big and slow are big and slow because they are big and slow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The MMA guys are lifting to increase muscle stamina. From what I've seen they concentrate on reps and not weight. They are trying to get lean not big. I'm more talking about guys trying to get big losing their quickness.

That is a common fallacy, more reps = more muscular endurance not stamina as we tend to view it (muscular stamina over cardio stamina).
Although fallacy may perhaps be too strong a word.
High reps (25+) has a place in MA training but lest be truthful here, MA are NOT endurance atletes, we do not put out a constant output over a specific range, it varies greatly from high intensity burst of explosive strength to sustained submaximal efforts.
MA tend to be very activity specific and the best cradio for that is the SPECFIC sport.
Strength training on the other hand, can be argued that it should be generalized.
In other words:
Cardio vascular endurance and muscle endurance trained by doing the specific MA
Strength trained by doing general strength training to strength the whole body with focus on performance over appearance.

[kungfublow]

That is a common fallacy, more reps = more muscular endurance not stamina as we tend to view it (muscular stamina over cardio stamina).
Although fallacy may perhaps be too strong a word.
High reps (25+) has a place in MA training but lest be truthful here, MA are NOT endurance atletes, we do not put out a constant output over a specific range, it varies greatly from high intensity burst of explosive strength to sustained submaximal efforts.
MA tend to be very activity specific and the best cradio for that is the SPECFIC sport.
Strength training on the other hand, can be argued that it should be generalized.
In other words:
Cardio vascular endurance and muscle endurance trained by doing the specific MA
Strength trained by doing general strength training to strength the whole body with focus on performance over appearance.

I would disagree tha MA does not involve endurance. I think it is the key to many fights that I have seen in MMA. If I guy gets gassed it isn't too long until he is beaten. Although we are not looking at using energy over a long period of time I do feel the muscle endurance is important. While sparring for a long period of time I find my arms getting tired and because of that I feel I make mistakes that I normally wouldn't have. Muscle endurance would help with this type of thing. I don't want to be in a fight and get to tired to fight back.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would disagree tha MA does not involve endurance. I think it is the key to many fights that I have seen in MMA. If I guy gets gassed it isn't too long until he is beaten. Although we are not looking at using energy over a long period of time I do feel the muscle endurance is important. While sparring for a long period of time I find my arms getting tired and because of that I feel I make mistakes that I normally wouldn't have. Muscle endurance would help with this type of thing. I don't want to be in a fight and get to tired to fight back.

I don't think I was clear in my post, allow me to simplify:
Muscular endurance from weigths < sport specific muscle endurance.

[kungfublow]

I don't think I was clear in my post, allow me to simplify:
Muscular endurance from weigths < sport specific muscle endurance.


Oh well then! Thanks for dumming it down a shade for me. I get it.

How does one develop sport specific muscle endurance then?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh well then! Thanks for dumming it down a shade for me. I get it.

How does one develop sport specific muscle endurance then?

That's easy, how does a swimmer develop it, or a runner or a rower or a skiier?
By doing the chosen sport.
You wanna develop muscular endurance and cardio for Judo? do Judo.
Now, there is nothing wrong about supplementing another cardio activity like biking or running or swimming, there is always SOME transference between activities and it keeps the boredom at bay and injuries down, but nothing is better for endurance in a physical event that that very event.

[kungfublow]

That's easy, how does a swimmer develop it, or a runner or a rower or a skiier?
By doing the chosen sport.
You wanna develop muscular endurance and cardio for Judo? do Judo.
Now, there is nothing wrong about supplementing another cardio activity like biking or running or swimming, there is always SOME transference between activities and it keeps the boredom at bay and injuries down, but nothing is better for endurance in a physical event that that very event.

I thought you might say that. I do agree with you mostly. However I find that my training in Wing chun at this point is pretty laid back. Other then sparring I don't feel like I am getting any cardio what so ever just doing drills and lap sao and chi sao. Sparring helps a little but I can't spar everyday. I just don't have that chance. I workout a couple days a week and I can honeslty say I get no workout what so ever from doing wing chun. Judo maybe or MMA maybe but wing chun while you are not sparring is more about theory and developing motor skills. It certainly doesn't leave me winded after a class. I can't say I am developing any muscle endurance from just doing wing chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought you might say that. I do agree with you mostly. However I find that my training in Wing chun at this point is pretty laid back. Other then sparring I don't feel like I am getting any cardio what so ever just doing drills and lap sao and chi sao. Sparring helps a little but I can't spar everyday. I just don't have that chance. I workout a couple days a week and I can honeslty say I get no workout what so ever from doing wing chun. Judo maybe or MMA maybe but wing chun while you are not sparring is more about theory and developing motor skills. It certainly doesn't leave me winded after a class. I can't say I am developing any muscle endurance from just doing wing chun.

I don't think you are alone, unfortunately,

I don't recall the kyokushin class or the boxing session or the judo class that I WASN'T sweating buckets or even on the verge of puking !
LOL !
I recall a quite a few Hung Kuen training sessions that left me 5lbs lighter, and not in a good way !

[kungfublow]

I don't think you are alone, unfortunately,

I don't recall the kyokushin class or the boxing session or the judo class that I WASN'T sweating buckets or even on the verge of puking !
LOL !
I recall a quite a few Hung Kuen training sessions that left me 5lbs lighter, and not in a good way !

My sifu always says " You aren't paying me to make you workout. You can do that at home. You are paying me for knowledge and techniques." He couldn't be more right. I don't need him to make me sweat. I can do that on my own. But what I do need him to do is teach me wing chun. I would think that boxing and judo would have much more high intensity classes. Good fun!

[bennyvt]

the endurance for fighting is more about recovery from hard bursts not normally long interval endurance. So it more like doing fifty 100 metre prints them a 10 km run. So interval training is normally the best. To be able to in all out but still keep going if you didn't knock them out. But like everything you must make a good base to get the best results. With vt you must increase aerobic ability, lactic removal, lactic tolerance then recovery. Different training for each.

[kungfublow]

the endurance for fighting is more about recovery from hard bursts not normally long interval endurance. So it more like doing fifty 100 metre prints them a 10 km run. So interval training is normally the best. To be able to in all out but still keep going if you didn't knock them out. But like everything you must make a good base to get the best results. With vt you must increase aerobic ability, lactic removal, lactic tolerance then recovery. Different training for each.


Man do I agree with this. Interval training is great!

[goju]

This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don't see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?

no this is complete rubbish my uncle was a taekwondo master and a nearly three hundred pound body builder

lol imagine some one the size of brock throwing tkd kicks at you
:D

ive seen a few very large guys as well who do kun fu or other asian styles and are very good at them

as far as flexibilty again no numerous competitors in the mr olympia display splits in their rountines along with back flips etc etc


so thats it pretty much an old wives tale

[bennyvt]

the flexibility thing is because most people don't do full range of motion which increases flexibiliY.

[HumbleWCGuy]

the flexibility thing is because most people don't do full range of motion which increases flexibiliY.

Only in certain circumstances.

[HumbleWCGuy]

no this is complete rubbish my uncle was a taekwondo master and a nearly three hundred pound body builder

lol imagine some one the size of brock throwing tkd kicks at you
:D

ive seen a few very large guys as well who do kun fu or other asian styles and are very good at them

as far as flexibilty again no numerous competitors in the mr olympia display splits in their rountines along with back flips etc etc


so thats it pretty much an old wives tale

How do you get old wives tale out of pulling out a couple of anecdotal examples?
The reality is that as a population, body builders would have difficulty executing martial arts moves.

Too big = reduced cardiovascular endurance
Too big = difficulty in executing strikes
too big = reduced flexibility
Too big = reduced speed

This is true because of changes to the muscles that occur due to weight training and because committing to size as body builders and powerlifters do will take away from training to counteract these affects. There is a reason why fighters over 300 lbs have only had limited success so far.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://coupdetodd.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/squat.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://doubleyourgains.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/crossfit-girl-front-squat.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

****, sorry for the size of that last picture guys !

[Lucas]

****, sorry for the size of that last picture guys !

wtf would you be sorry for? id let her squat me anyday

[HumbleWCGuy]

wtf would you be sorry for? id let her squat me anyday

How can I put this delicately? Muscle girls are not a pretty sight in the bikini region.

[anerlich]

****, sorry for the size of that last picture guys !

Yeah, it should have been bigger!


How can I put this delicately? Muscle girls are not a pretty sight in the bikini region.

How can I put THIS delicately ... I can't, so ... only if you're GAY. ;)

[Lucas]

How can I put this delicately? Muscle girls are not a pretty sight in the bikini region.

look at the picture, shes not one of those overly bound muscle freaks.

really, shes not that big. well, unless your a wet noodle....

[HumbleWCGuy]

look at the picture, shes not one of those overly bound muscle freaks.

really, shes not that big. well, unless your a wet noodle....

The first picture is okay. The second girl is a cream user for sure.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeah, it should have been bigger!



How can I put THIS delicately ... I can't, so ... only if you're GAY. ;)

Nope, I just know what muscle girls look like naked. Look it up!

[goju]

How do you get old wives tale out of pulling out a couple of anecdotal examples?
The reality is that as a population, body builders would have difficulty executing martial arts moves.

Too big = reduced cardiovascular endurance
Too big = difficulty in executing strikes
too big = reduced flexibility
Too big = reduced speed

This is true because of changes to the muscles that occur due to weight training and because committing to size as body builders and powerlifters do will take away from training to counteract these affects. There is a reason why fighters over 300 lbs have only had limited success so far.

well because thats exactly what it is an old wives tale:D people that say that have never had muscle in their life so why should i believe them?

but of course those examples i gave were just exceptions right?
lol they allways are:D

[Lucas]

well because thats exactly what it is an old wives tale:D people that say that have never had muscle in their life so why should i believe them?

but of course those examples i gave were just exceptions right?
lol they allways are:D

u care not for the wimminz?

[goju]

as allways lucas i one up sanjuro with his pics

[HumbleWCGuy]

well because thats exactly what it is an old wives tale:D people that say that have never had muscle in their life so why should i believe them?

but of course those examples i gave were just exceptions right?
lol they allways are:D


If they aren't examples show me the research? Show me a professional fighter who is bodybuilder sized... Let's see it...

EDIT:
BTW... I accept that weightlifting is good as I have been weightlifting for many years. Moreover, I have said that weightlifting is good. Bodybuilder size is not good for upright fighting. In spite of your anecdotes. For grappling, I think that ultra huge size is probably less of a hindrance, but we are talking about kung fu.

[goju]

If they aren't examples show me the research? Show me a professional fighter who is bodybuilder sized... Let's see it...
a professional fighter who is body builder sized?

brock , that african gentlemn checkcongo(lol sorry about the named spell) gary goodridge mark kerr and thats off the top of me head

the reason why i said few earlier is because there are very few actually big body builders period not just in martial arts but anywhere

[HumbleWCGuy]

a professional fighter who is body builder sized?

brock , that african gentlemn checkcongo(lol sorry about the named spell) gary goodridge mark kerr and thats off the top of me head

the reason why i said few earlier is because there are very few actually big body builders period not just in martial arts but anywhere

Cheik nope. Gary was huge when he first started but when he realized that he wanted to win fights more than look good off the bus, he slimmed down. Brock and Mark are close but not a good striker as you would expect. To be honest, how good is Brock really? I could see a lot of pride guys beating him.

[Lucas]

you telling me you would turn this down?!? :eek:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/eg9beast/1246729603870.jpg

[goju]

Cheik nope. Gary was huge when he first started but when he realized that he wanted to win fights more than look good off the bus, he slimmed down. Brock and Mark are close but not a good striker as you would expect. To be honest, how good is Brock really? I could see a lot of pride guys beating him.

well brocks the champ so that speaks to how good he is

and checkongo is the size of a body builder man:D

and how many guys are outstanding strikers to begin with?

[goju]

you telling me you would turn this down?!? :eek:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/eg9beast/1246729603870.jpg
oh lawd look at that @ss!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy hell!!!!

I am going to build a shrine to that girls ass and start a cult to worship it

:d

[HumbleWCGuy]

well brocks the champ so that speaks to how good he is

and checkongo is the size of a body builder man:D

and how many guys are outstanding strikers to begin with?

I am sorry but those guys are not very big. Brock in WWE days was too big and approaching body building size. Brock right now is bordering on too big, but he hasn't faced any legit competition to puntuate that point.

[goju]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[HumbleWCGuy]

you telling me you would turn this down?!? :eek:



Probably because I don't want to see what's under that bikini

[goju]

I am sorry but those guys are not very big. Brock in WWE days was too big and approaching body building size. Brock right now is bordering on too big, but he hasn't faced any legit competition to puntuate that point.

well what do you want a giant ballof deformed muscle? of course thats not going to be functional but check and ker are bigger than some pro body builders

[Lucas]

how many of those big fighters are as ripped as a pro body builder. you know when they flex it looks like iron cables....

conan ftw :D

[Lucas]

oh lawd look at that @ss!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy hell!!!!

I am going to build a shrine to that girls ass and start a cult to worship it

:d

lol, thanks for the laugh man i needed that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

well what do you want a giant ballof deformed msucle? of course thats not going to be functionalbut check and kerr and bigger than some pro body builders

They are not bigger than any modern professionals by proportion. Outweigh some? Probably. Greater muscle proportional to frame nope.

[goju]

yes but again you must consider alot of body builder are disproportioned freaks now adays:D so many of them have bloated stomachs and legs are so big they waddle like ducks
i wouldnt expect this type of musculature to be useful as it obvious isnt when they cant even walk properly:D

as far as body builder go id assume we should discuss a reasonably proportioned one that hasnt leaped into the deformed category:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

yes but again you must consider alot of body builder are disproportioned freaks now adays:D so many of them have bloated stomachs and legs are so big they waddle like ducks
i wouldnt expect this type of musculature to be useful as it obvious isnt when they cant even walk properly:D

as far as body builder go id assume we should discuss a reasonably proportioned one that hasnt leaped into the deformed category:D

That's mostly what I am getting at. Not that many natural weightlifters can get that big so it isn't usually a worry, but sometimes it happens. At a certain musculature level it is just not possible to execute the moves correctly.

Also, from my own experience. When I got overly concerned with lifting, I was benchpressing over 450 lbs. I noticed a decease in striking speed, even when I wasn't sore from lifting. I trained my speed regularly and I noticed a drop off in speed bag performance as I got stronger. Neurologically, striking speed and lifting strength aren't exactly compatible. There begins to be a small trade off at the higher strength levels.


Here are my beliefs when it comes to maximizing ability in striking. Now this might be debatable, I believe that if two guys have the power required to knock one another out with one shot then speed is the trump card.

In addition, there is no question that endurance is affected by size whether it is muscle fat or what. Here again, two athletes have one-hit knockout power and one is slightly smaller and has more endurance. The endurance becomes the trump. Of course, both examples assume that the fighters are compatible in other ways.

[m1k3]

HumbleWCG, you need to look a little ****her for your examples.

1. American football players. Many are over 300lbs. They are fast, strong, flexible and have good endurance.

2. Sumo wrestlers. Most are over 300 lbs. They are strong, fast and very flexible. Their sport doesn't require a lot of endurance.

As for speed trumping size the answer is maybe. While the faster striker may score more the additional mass of the larger man, even if it is fat, will allow him to absorb more punishment.

Its not black and white. There are many shades of gray and a lot of other attributes will play a role in the struggle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, I posted those pics for two reasons, the first girl had nice legs, of course, but what was said in the caption speaks volumes.
Second, the second girl is NOT a body builder she is a "cross fit" girl and her squat form was quite good.
Strength building is NOT body building, you'd think people would know this by now, sheesh !

[HumbleWCGuy]

Guys, I posted those pics for two reasons, the first girl had nice legs, of course, but what was said in the caption speaks volumes.
Second, the second girl is NOT a body builder she is a "cross fit" girl and her squat form was quite good.
Strength building is NOT body building, you'd think people would know this by now, sheesh !

Cross fit or not, the second girl is on the cream which means abnormalities in the bikini region. The acne, square jaw, and vascularity say it all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HumbleWCG, you need to look a little ****her for your examples.

1. American football players. Many are over 300lbs. They are fast, strong, flexible and have good endurance.

2. Sumo wrestlers. Most are over 300 lbs. They are strong, fast and very flexible. Their sport doesn't require a lot of endurance.

As for speed trumping size the answer is maybe. While the faster striker may score more the additional mass of the larger man, even if it is fat, will allow him to absorb more punishment.

Its not black and white. There are many shades of gray and a lot of other attributes will play a role in the struggle.

I don't think that any of these examples hold up because none of them are executing striking maneuvers. Sumo and football (on the lines) both resemble wrestling.

Even if they did do kung fu. You can't say, "I know of a bunch of big and fast kung fu guys; therefore bigger is better." The question is, "what is the ideal, build for striking." Do you believe that a sumo or an NFL linemen is ideally suited for striking or do you think that they could maximize their fighting prowess by restructuring their build somewhat?

We can say with some certainty that leaner is better. Does that mean that a fat guy never wins over a lean guy? Of course not.

[Lucas]

ya and the chick i posted has a nice ass. admit it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya and the chick i posted has a nice ass. admit it.

Under state much ?

[Lucas]

Under state much ?

its a hobby. im going to join goju's cult to worship her ass.

[goju]

bolo yeung was another exceptional huge body builder who was a martial artist and a good one at that


anyone know who that girl is with the nice arse? and possibly have her phone number as well:D

[chusauli]

bolo yeung was another exceptional huge body builder who was a martial artist and a good one at that


Since I am in Los Angeles Chinatown and used to work out at the Bally's in Rosemead, I saw Bolo Yeung on a few occasions. Bolo was a little dude, maybe about 5'4", but pretty big muscles for a little guy.

"Exceptionally huge", maybe on the silver screen. :)

[goju]

Since I am in Los Angeles Chinatown and used to work out at the Bally's in Rosemead, I saw Bolo Yeung on a few occasions. Bolo was a little dude, maybe about 5'4", but pretty big muscles for a little guy.

"Exceptionally huge", maybe on the silver screen. :)

you can stll be big for your height no matter what it is and bolo was body building champ as well i beleive:D

[Lucas]

wikipedia but meh...its probably correct...

"Yang Sze (simplified Chinese: 杨斯; traditional Chinese: 楊斯; Mandarin Pinyin: Yáng Sī; Jyutping: Yeung4 Si1; born July 3, 1938 in Guangzhou), better known as Bolo Yeung, is a former competitive bodybuilder and a martial arts film actor. Primarily cast as the villain in the movies he stars in, he is best known for his performances as Bolo in Enter the Dragon and as Chong Li in Bloodsport, and also for his many appearances in martial arts B-movies"
_______

how about Jamie Eason or Jelena Abbou ;)
:p

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2-7AdSkZA7I/RiJ3B0tsjZI/AAAAAAAACuc/atYaw9VxrOw/s400/Jamie%2BEason_sexy%2Bwoman.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W2oxhVu5JWI/SXZy3MtPy4I/AAAAAAAAB_g/A-VPIba3QTA/s400/jelena_abbou.jpg

[Pacman]

you telling me you would turn this down?!? :eek:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd67/eg9beast/1246729603870.jpg


whos the chick with the crazy @$$

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.tmuscle.com/forum_images/7/a/7af44-Stephanie_16.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.tmuscle.com/forum_images/9/8/98b09-Reef_Girl.jpg

[Lucas]

whos the chick with the crazy @$$

i cant remember where i found that picture >< **** it.

[Lucas]

SR, very very nice ;)

some fine booty thar yarrrrgg

[goju]

How coudl you not know who that is
arghhhhh **** you lucas!!!!