Shaolin Tong Bi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Shaolin Tong Bi Quan sets are another mess, not as bad as the others, but with the added mystery of just what are they really supposed to be?

You clearly need to know Shaolin Hong Quan and Pao Quan first before you can master the Tong Bi Quan set.

Tong Bi Quan means "Through the arms" or "Tunnel Arm" Boxing.

It is erroneously sometimes pinyin-ized as "Tong Bei" Quan, which is something entirely different, meaning "Through the Back" Boxing.

Tong Bi was synonymous with "long fist" in ancient times.

The style that was now know as Tong Bei Quan was developed by a Taoist Priest named Dong Cheng during the late 1500s. He learned Shaolin Quan from two students of Bai Yufeng (complete info is in my forthcoming book!). From them he learned Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan sets, Hong Quan sets, and Pao Quan sets. He created something he called Tong Bi Quan after observing some Yellow Gibbons interacting in the mountain slopes and incorporated the long arm movements into his Shaolin Quan. Later still he learned Six Harmony Spear at Qianzai Temple and also Rou Quan. He met up with the nephew (or grandson?) of Zhang San Feng, who practiced Nei Jia Quan. From him, he exchanged routines, teaching Zhang some Taizu and other Shaolin sets and from him learning the Taoist 13 Gong (often called 13 Skills or 13 Postures). He merged all this and developed what was called Tongbei Quan. You can date the lineages of his students from what time period that they learned had from him by them having Quan Pu manuals that are labeled either Tong Bi or Tong Bei. They are very different from each other.
He went on the later influence that founding of Chen Taiji Quan, but that's another long story.

Hence you have to say "Shaolin" Tongbi Quan in order to be clear that you don't mean the other Tongbi Quan style from Dong Cheng of Henan.

Now, back to SHAOLIN TONG BI Quan.

It's movements CLEARLY are found within Hong Quan and Pao Quan. Shaolin Tong Bi Quan shares with them the postures of Single Whip, Tui Shou (push hand), Cloud Peak overhead, and more. But, it also features movements found in the Taizu Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Ape-Monkey Quan set. One important feature of Shaolin Tong Bi Quan is its great use of the Spear Hand posture, in fact it is heavily emphasized. There is also much use of the "lying head on pillow" movement that is found in the Rou Quan and Lao Hong Quan sets from the Dengfeng area and the Shi Degen and Liu Zhen Hai lineages.

There has been some conjecture that Shaolin Tongbi Quan comes from Han Tong's Tongbi Quan, which is mentioned as one of the base styles that Shaolin Quan is based on, including the Taizu Chang Quan set.

But, at Shaolin, the Tongbi Quan sets were practiced mostly by the guards that watched the South, East, and West gate entrances to the Shaolin Temple grounds.

But, when you look further at the movements of Shaolin Tongbi Quan, they share a lot in common with the other most practiced style within that region of Shaolin, which is what?
The Liu Bu Jia (Da Hong Quan - Big Swan Fist), which was practiced by many military people. The Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets contain one important posture not seen in anything else but sets that are related to Liu Bu Jia Da Hong Quan, which is the San Huang Bang (Three Dazzling Wings). The Bang is the same part of the body as the Bi in Chinese, the upper arms (forearms).

I really think that Shaolin Tongbi Quan must have came from village Da Hong Quan. Here's some important points:

1 - Shaolin Tongbi Quan was practiced at the gates on the Shaolin grounds by the temple guards, not in the regular areas.
2 - Tongbi means Tunneling Arms, Through the Arms, etc., and is another way of saying Long Fist.
3 - Shaolin Tongbi Quan was practiced there since the Song dynasty. It was one of the martial arts that Fu Ju brought together to create the TZ Chang Quan 32 set.
4 - If this is true, and General Han Tong practiced Tongbi (which is what the ancient Shaolin books say and other books), then since General Han Tong practiced the same martial arts as Zhao Kuangyin, being from the same army, and since Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist) was practiced in the military since the Sui dynasty, and since it is clear that Lao Hong Quan that came from Zhao Kuangyin is very much derived from Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist), THEN this Shaolin Tongbi is indeed also derived from Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Fist).
5 - Big Swan Fist shares all the Single Whip and other movements that overlap between Shaolin Hong Quan, Pao Quan, and Tongbi Quan. In fact, they practiced them first and for much longer.
6 - Centuries later the guard posts and shrine area of Shaolin practiced the Shaolin Kan Jia Quan style, and the Big Swan Fist books say that Shaolin Kan Jia came from Big Swan Fist (and the sets clearly show this), then more than likely Shaolin Kanjia developed out of Shaolin Tongbi Quan.

Anyway, that's my opinion from analyzing the movements and postures and history of the area.

Now, today there seems to be only a few Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets practiced.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou Books show only two Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets: Xiao Tong Bi and Da Tong Bi. Again, like the Xiao and Da Pao Quan sets, the Xiao Tong Bi set is very long and the Da Tong Bi Quan set is very short.
In fact, the Xiao Tongbi set seems to have three seams; three points where the opening salute is given and the set starts again. So, maybe there originally was three separate sets that are now merged into one.
The Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets shown the Shaolin Encyclopedia and the Tagou Books match each other pretty much. The main different being two:
1 - the direction you are facing when doing certain postures are turned around in the Tagou books, but then return back to facing the same way.
2 - both sets are much longer in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. In this case, which is not often, the Tagou sets seem to be abbreviated a lot.

I compared these two other written sources. The Shaolin sets were the same in all the Shaolin sources I checked, all were longer than the Tagou sets.

BUT, Liu Zhenhai has another book (Shaolin Temple Tao Lu, 1996, isbn 7534947530) in which he shows two sets that are similar to the Shaolin and Tagou Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan set, but much more longer and finely detailed:
1. Yi Lu Tong Bei Quan - 74 postures / 95 movements
2. Er Lu Tong Bei Quan - 32 postures / 46 movements

In Liu Zhenhai's version of the sets, there clearly is shown the movements from the Da Hong Quan (Big Swan Boxing) style, such as San Huang Bang and movements from the Shaolin Ape-Monkey set that are not found in almost all other modern versions of the Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets.
Today's Shaolin Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets when shown appear to be smoothed over and modernized enough to hide the original roots that are apparent in its postures and movements that link to other sets and styles.

I will prepare and post on youtube Liu Zhenhai's vcds of his Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets. He has three VCDs labeled as Xiao Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.

Also, I will gather up whatever versions of these sets that can be found on Youtube that you can see.

One last thing, Shi Deyang not only teaches the main Xiao and Tongbi Quan sets, but also Tongbi Quan sets from other gate tradition. The different gates practiced different routines from each other in case one gate was overcome in battle then the other ones would know different material, which would give better chances to overcome the invaders.
- Shi deyang also has 3 vcds out that are labeled Xiao Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.
- And, he has 3 vcds labeled Nan Yuan (South gate) Da Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.
- Finally, he has one VCD of Da Tongbi Quan as well.
These sets came from his late master Suxi.

Anyone that wants to add info to this posting, please do, thanks!

[Sal Canzonieri]

1. The short Da Tongbi Quan (abbreviated) set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNByYRPmbk (shi deyang - same exact as the Tagou books version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plU5pj-7HSk (made with REALLY ANNOYING CAMERA ANGLE CHANGES! Irritating bozos!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plU5pj-7HSk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od-vIuaMLQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sx9pX00iYM (different way of doing set)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh91XIsii4s (by 31st generation Shi De Ding -Jiao Hong Bo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og023uq6kD8 (Wu Gulun version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlHzKhb8TgE (another version - Wu Gulun style)

[RenDaHai]

AAAh, cant watch the videos again.


On the name. Recently discussed this a lot with my assistant translator. Bi means arm, however it means the entire arm, including the shoulder. Tong means through, however the same character has a second less common meaning and that is full or entire. THis compounds the full arm of bi, often chinese is constructed like this, one character compounds the other. Thus in this situation I beleive TongBi best translates as 'FULL ARM BOXING' emphasizing that the entire arm is used. ANyone who has seen the standard wushu tongbi will understand this name. Tong as through doesn't make as much sense. If it does mean 'through' then it should be translated as 'PENETRATING FIST' another suitable name. Arm-through means nothing in english and is therefore a poor translation. TOngbi is often referred to as Tongbei, this is because in Henan language Bi is pronounced Bei, this has led to lots of people miss translating it as 'back' (also bei).


Tongbi quan is a similar situation to Pao quan. You have the long form which is as you guessed 3 forms put together. Most people only practice two of them at a time. This is the shaolin tongbei quan.

Then we have Da tong bei, this again is very common in dengfeng where xiao tong bi is not. So as with pao quan we have dengfeng short tongbi, and shaolin san lu long tongbi. Just got the yellow book from shaolin temple, although it has some differences I think this is the definitive version, has all three sets completely.

Nanyuan tongbi is another menpai. Deyangs is the only good version I have seen, I have other videos of it. Actually there are many forms from the 'nanyuan' pai, it is generally the kung fu of the abbot ZhenXu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

AAAh, cant watch the videos again.


All these videos are also found on the Chinese versions of YouTube, such as 56.com and all the rest, you can find them.

So far I have only found Da Tongbi Quan videos, none for Xiao Tongbei Quan (or Tongbi Yi, Er, and San Lu) on the english sites. I will check the Chinese sites this morning.


On the name. Recently discussed this a lot with my assistant translator. Bi means arm, however it means the entire arm, including the shoulder. Tong means through, however the same character has a second less common meaning and that is full or entire. THis compounds the full arm of bi, often chinese is constructed like this, one character compounds the other. Thus in this situation I beleive TongBi best translates as 'FULL ARM BOXING' emphasizing that the entire arm is used. ANyone who has seen the standard wushu tongbi will understand this name. Tong as through doesn't make as much sense. If it does mean 'through' then it should be translated as 'PENETRATING FIST' another suitable name. Arm-through means nothing in english and is therefore a poor translation. TOngbi is often referred to as Tongbei, this is because in Henan language Bi is pronounced Bei, this has led to lots of people miss translating it as 'back' (also bei).

Yes, indeed very true. AND, what is very interesting, this "Full Arm Boxing" is the essence of the San Huang Bang movements of Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist), as found in the beginning of their sets, such as Liu Bu Jia, etc.
This whole style is entirely based on using Full Arm Boxing, and a Penetrating Fist. They use these words when describing their style's theory and operations. Its one big long fist from one hand traveling along the arm through the shoulders to the other arm and out to the other hand. You punch like a wave from one end to the other.

This concept of Tongbi was influential to the formation of Taizu Chang Quan, which came from the input of the military advisers from Zhao Kuang Yin's army.
From Zhao came the use of his "Lifting Hands" technique. From General Han Tong (who died in battle against Zhao's rebel forces, when Han tried to defend the child emperor) came the use of this penetrating fist idea, of whole body movement, etc.



Tongbi quan is a similar situation to Pao quan. You have the long form which is as you guessed 3 forms put together. Most people only practice two of them at a time. This is the shaolin tongbei quan.

Yeah, Liu Zhenhai seems to have a very detailed and long version of it. I will review his videos and see how different they are from Shi Deyang's version of the three sets. Hopefully, Liu's VCDs will be like his book's version (that would make things much more neater to deal with).


Then we have Da tong bei, this again is very common in dengfeng where xiao tong bi is not. So as with pao quan we have dengfeng short tongbi, and shaolin san lu long tongbi. Just got the yellow book from shaolin temple, although it has some differences I think this is the definitive version, has all three sets completely.

I will have Shi Yongxin's two Shaolin Tongbi Quan books any day now, they come very fast in the mail. So, there is 一路通臂拳 and 大通臂拳.
Which of these books are you saying has "all three sets completely"? His Tongbei is only Yi Lu on the cover. It has all three parts?
Or do you mean his Da Hong Quan, that was full complete all three parts in one book, very nice!



Nanyuan tongbi is another menpai. Deyangs is the only good version I have seen, I have other videos of it. Actually there are many forms from the 'nanyuan' pai, it is generally the kung fu of the abbot ZhenXu.

I would like to learn as much about the other Shaolin gate routines and styles.
Any information you can provide, I will be grateful, in the spirit of research, thanks!
What other routines come from Nanyuan Pai?

What about the East and West Yuan Pais?

[RenDaHai]

@sal

I didnt bother getting the Da tong bei book because it is the standard Da tongbi, like deyang does, a bit nicer round the edges though, but I have learned this form 10 times and seen it 10,000.

The Yi lu book is the one. That has all 3 forms of xiao tongbi put together in one glorious 76 movement form. The last section, section 3 I have never seen before. It is awesome, and next to san lu luohan quan is the form I want to study from him (yan Zhuang). I never really liked tongbi quan that much but on seeing this book i cant get it out of my head.

Nan Yuan Pai, I think a lot of Zhen Xu Fang Zhans forms were nan yuan pai. I also know that Su xi was primerily nan yuan pai. Its a large sect within shaolin. I don't know a huge amount about it, but I know xuan feng dao (very traditional double saber set) is also nan yuan pai. My master (yong wen) is very familiar with it, I'll ask him what else is nan yuan pai next time i get a chance.

[Sal Canzonieri]

少林小通臂拳 - Xiao Tongbi Quan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OMejSdJlI (Shi Deyang doing his Yi, Er, and San Lu sections, first two sections match the Shaolin Encyclopedia, the third section is nothing like it. His three are like the Tagou book version, abbreviated.)

[Tainan Mantis]

There has been some conjecture that Shaolin Tongbi Quan comes from Han Tong's Tongbi Quan,


Interesting stuff Sal.
As you know the "Surnames of the Founders of Eighteen Styles" lists the first two as:
"Taizu's Longfist is the beginning.
Han Tong's Tong Bei is the mother."

The Bei character used here is 'bei' for 'back.'

within Mantis Fist the Tong Bei of Han Tong refers to a group of techniques called 'seven long' (qi chang).

The manuscript of Seven Long finishes with a description of Han Tong's Tong Bei.


As for Tong Bei, when Han Tong demonstrated his greatness, both his elbows and hips worked as one to pass through the shoulders.
Later generations learned it, stretching forward and bending back, turning to the side and rushing forward. This is what we call Tong Bei.

But, besides Mantis Boxing I have found little mention of "Hantong's" Tong Bei.

Besides Mantis, where else is Han Tong mentioned?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting stuff Sal.
As you know the "Surnames of the Founders of Eighteen Styles" lists the first two as:
"Taizu's Longfist is the beginning.
Han Tong's Tong Bei is the mother."

The Bei character used here is 'bei' for 'back.'

within Mantis Fist the Tong Bei of Han Tong refers to a group of techniques called 'seven long' (qi chang).

The manuscript of Seven Long finishes with a description of Han Tong's Tong Bei.


As for Tong Bei, when Han Tong demonstrated his greatness, both his elbows and hips worked as one to pass through the shoulders.
Later generations learned it, stretching forward and bending back, turning to the side and rushing forward. This is what we call Tong Bei.

But, besides Mantis Boxing I have found little mention of "Hantong's" Tong Bei.

Besides Mantis, where else is Han Tong mentioned?

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

The History of the Song is a huge history book from ancient China.

Supposedly, Han Tong (韩通) was a General along with Zhao Kuangyin (赵匡胤) under the Later Zhou Dynasty. He was stationed at the gate leading into Shandong Province (I think at the junction point where the different provinces all border each other (Hebei, Henan).
When the Zhou Emperor died (I think it was Zhou Shizong) and a infant child was to take the throne, the army generals rebelled and chose Zhao Kuangyin to be the new emperor. When word reached the rest of the Zhou empire, many other generals defected and there was a lot of chaos. The only person who remained loyal to the Zhou emperor and fought with resistance was Han Tong, but he was killed by one of Kuangyin's generals when he reached home. New Emperor Zhao requested a big ceremony for his death and attended the funeral.
The Later Zhou Dynasty was from out of Taiyuan, which was in Shanxi province. Han Tong may have come from there as well. He enlisted in the army at 20 years of age and was a great fighter, quickly rising in ranks to general. He was famous for fighting off the Khitan.
His military life is here in Chinese: http://baike.baidu.com/view/676811.htm


Okay, back to Tongbi Quan.

Hmm, I don't think that using the "back" character for Bi was correct.
In the fact that it is well known that the foundation manuscripts that Mantis uses were hand copied with errors dating from various times. Tong Bei using Back would be something that developed during the early Qing dynasty.
Bi using Arms was always used in more ancient times, synonymous with "long fist".

It is right to translate "Tongbi" as penetrating. The actual main tongbi technique in the Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets is a spear hand. And it is not the tip of the hand that is used, rather the whole arm is thrust out (like in Pi Quan of Five Elements) right past the throat of the opponent, so that the whole arm is choking his neck.
Like this: whole body movement is used from the ground up through spine to elbows, and the elbows thrust out to the hands. The first thrust deflects the incoming attack. The second thrust invades the opponent's space to unbalance him while a whole arm spears through along his throat, causing great shock and choking discomfort. The next thrust attacks and presses down, continuing the choke so that the blood flow is cut off and the person passes out. (one application).
So, yes, this would be a "long" technique to be used in the short range (as Mantis theory is known to say).

IF indeed Mantis is looking to Tongbei (back) for sure, then this is not General Han Tong's Tongbi or Shaolin Tongbi, but rather the Taoist style of Tongbei Quan that developed FROM Shaolin Quan by Priest Dong Cheng.
So, even though Mantis was using the "16 masters Sonnet" from Shaolin sources, it's not really getting the actual methods and techniques from it, it is getting them from the Qing Dynasty era Tongbei Quan, the White Ape style movements that are always used in the Tang Lang legends for when Wang Lang saw the Taoists practicing their martial art and he learned from them to finally merge Shaolin with Taoist Tongbei to develop Tang Lang (as the legend goes).I have seen some people say that they think it may be this Taoist Tongbei rather then Shaolin Tongbi. You would have to look at videos of the two styles and tell me which one you think is most closest to how Mantis actually employs the technique. This would make an interesting thing to check out.
I often see the Taizu Chang Quan in Mantis.
If indeed Mantis is using Taoist TongBei Quan, there should be some overlap with Taiji Quan, because it developed from Tongbei Quan. AND, I have heard quite a few Mantis people say that they have seen this overlap. I think both styles have a similar Elbows routine, for one.
(By the way, Taoist Tongbei Quan is a merger of Shaolin Quan [Priest Dong Cheng had learned Shaolin Wu Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Pao Quan] and Taoist 13 Soft Skills)

Confusing, I know, but worth further investigation and discussion.

Please don't think that I am positioning myself as the Grand Poopah expert and so on. I am fully open to learn more, I am just presenting you what I have ready so far in doing research and my present opinions (which are open to change as more info comes in over time).

Oh, I forgot something interesting. Han Tong in some sources is mentioned as having a hunched back from an early illness!
Perhaps that contributed to his unique fighting style / technique?

[Tainan Mantis]

What the are roots of Han Tong's Tong Bei in Mantis are I can not say.

Here is some more information on the arm vs back character. Usually, I don't read to much into this distinction for several reasons.

arm pronounced 'bi' has the alternate pronunciation of 'bei' making it sound like back.
dialect differences in pronunciation
lack of high literacy in martial artists over the years would explain confusion between arm and back characters.


But, in Mantis there is something you might find interesting.

Within the above mentioned manuscript of 'Seven Long" is something called Connected Fist (Lian Quan). Connected Fist is interesting for several reasons. First of all it uses all the terminology that is explained within the Short Strike Manuscript such as the 24 keywords of short strikes, seven long and eight short, moves from the eighteen masters, eight hard and twelve soft etc.

Connected Fist is written as 64 lines of 7 character verse. It emphasizes entering gates and it also identifies each 7 character line as a gate. It is broken down into three sections which are:

32 gates for the central gate
16 gates for the left gate
16 gates for the right gate


It is the 16 gates to left and right that interest us here.

The complete name of the left gate is
Left Sixteen Gates Piercing Ear Defeats Through the Arms Hand Method Essential Key

The right gate is
Right Sixteen Gates Through the Arms Defeats Piercing Ear Hand Method Essential Key

In both cases 'arm' instead of 'back' is used. But what is interesting is that in the actual techniques, the 7 character verse descriptions, 'back' instead of 'arm' is used.

Example:

Following step raising hands ear piercing fist,
Raising step hang on face add tong bei(back).

another:

Hook and pull tong bei connects three palms

So we have two instances of arm and two of back. I don't think that this is a mistake. Arm is used in the title and back is used in the description. Unfortuneatly I only have the one version of this manuscript and as far as I know this form no longer exists.

The piercing ear that battles with Tong Bi is within 18 Surnames of Masters as being passed on by Tan Fang. have not found out any information on him so far.

Within this Connected Fist all the moves of 7 Long can be found. Can Han Tong be attributed to these techniques or, would ancient popular novels such as Fei Long Zhuan and Shui Hu Zhuan be a possible source of why semi famous generals are listed as founders of styles and techniques?

Kevin

[Sal Canzonieri]

What the are roots of Han Tong's Tong Bei in Mantis are I can not say.

Here is some more information on the arm vs back character. . . .

So we have two instances of arm and two of back. I don't think that this is a mistake. Arm is used in the title and back is used in the description. Unfortuneatly I only have the one version of this manuscript and as far as I know this form no longer exists.

Very interesting.

Well, for one thing, the Tongbi Quan and then Tongbei Quan that developed from Shaolin Quan through Priest Dong Cheng usually catalogs their full amount of training material into 108 different methods and uses 24 Sanda ‘free fighting’ techniques. :
a - 108 methods (which is what Qi style tongbei Quan comes from)
b - 24 techniques (which is what Shi Tongbei Quan comes from).

The description you give of the 24 short strikes is very close to Tongbei Quan's own way of describing their 24 characters techniques.

Shaolin called this all Duan Da.

In the Henan Shaolin area, there exist two sets that exhibit similar theory to that of the Luohan Xing Gong Duanda book, namely the ‘Shaolin Duanda’ (containing 19 sections) and the’ Jiao Shou Shiliu Shi’ (Crossing Hands in 16 Positions).

The Luohan Xing Gong Duanda Tuo Pu makes a point of saying that the foundational material is based on the Taizu Long Fist (which was also then called ‘32 Shou Duanda’ – ‘32 Hands Close Strikes’) and the Tongbi of Han Tang (who was an army general stationed at the Shandong gate that died in the battle against Zhao Kuangyin’s rebel forces that made him become Song Dynasty Emperor ‘Taizu’). The book has key text on how this long fist is short strike and vice versa. In the Shandong area, Taizu Hong Quan was a popular Ming Dynasty martial art. In the more ancient Henan Shaolin tradition it is related to, the Song Taizu Chang Quan also is a long fist style that fights in the short range, using a flowing fist (Hong Quan) method that overwhelms the opponent. The actual name for the Shaolin Song Taizu Chang Quan set is ‘San Er Shou Duanda’ – ‘32 Hands Close Strikes’.

How something similar via Shaolin got to Shandong and to the very village area where the earliest mentions of Tang Lang Quan come from is as I have said before:

At some point during the Ming-Qing transition era, Shaolin monks traveling in the Yingkou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed on a system of what appears to be sets from Mi (Zong) Quan and Shaolin Wu Quan to Cheng (Sheng) Lixian (盛力先) of Shandong province. The system he brought home and practiced in the Laizhou (莱州) village was later named as the ‘Shaolin Meihua Men’.

Some of the sets that they practiced were:
Taizu Quan – Great Ancestor Boxing, 太祖拳
Tang Lang 13 Zhao – Preying Mantis 13 Provocations, 螳螂十三招
Xiao Hu Yan – Small Tiger Swallow, 小虎燕
Yuejia Chui – Yue Family Strikes, 岳家捶 (which is the Duan Da - short strikes)
Heihu Quan – Black Tiger Boxing, 黑虎拳
Meihua Quan – Plum Flower Boxing, 梅花拳
Da Hong Quan – Big Flood Boxing, 大洪拳
Zui Ba Xian Deng - 8 Drunken Immortals, 醉八仙等; among others.
The weapon sets were Taizu and Plum Flower based implements: 梅花刀, 梅花剑, 行者棍, 梅花枪, 梅花叠鞭, 虎尾三节棍 (即宋太祖盘龙棍), 八卦游龙剑, and 虎头双钩等.

The earliest known person to practice Tang Lang Quan in Shantong (and he didn't even call it that, did he?) was Li Bingxiao in the 1700s, who lived in Xiao Chishan village in Laiyang County. Li Bingxiao became known as Li Ergou or "Two Hooks Li" and also "Old Man with Two Hooks" (Ergou Ye), from using Praying Mantis "hooking" techniques. Perhaps his knowledge came from the Shaolin material that Cheng (Sheng) Lixian had brought to the Laizhou area of Shandong?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The piercing ear that battles with Tong Bi is within 18 Surnames of Masters as being passed on by Tan Fang. have not found out any information on him so far.

Within this Connected Fist all the moves of 7 Long can be found. Can Han Tong be attributed to these techniques or, would ancient popular novels such as Fei Long Zhuan and Shui Hu Zhuan be a possible source of why semi famous generals are listed as founders of styles and techniques?

Kevin

Well, just about everyone in the Master's List comes from Shandong, and even in the Shaolin records about the meeting that Fu Ju in the year 962 had with former generals of Song Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin called in as advisers to redevelop Shaolin Quan. Zhao even assigned a specific general to oversee the whole project. (I have his name in my book, I'll have to search for it, if you want it).

Starting with two foundational materials called ‘Taizu Chang Quan’ and General ‘Han Tang’s Tongbi’ (Through the arm boxing), 16 masters and their inspirational skills are listed; they appear to be from the Song dynasty era and many were from Shandong. Also some are known from various fictional novels of martial arts heroes, though they may have historical counterparts. One person listed, Gao Huaide, was an actual famous Northern Song general and also the brother-in-law of Emperor Zhao Kuangyin. Another person listed, Zheng En, is mentioned in the History of the Song as being a regional commander that died in the 4th year of the Jianyan Reign (1130 AD) at the beginning of the Southern Song dynasty. The fictional Zheng En is described as a general living during the beginning of the Song Dynasty (around 960). Even a Wen Yuan and his Duan Quan (Short fist) is listed, alluding to the Song era Wen Family, from whence Ba Shan Fan and Chuojiao are said to come from and of which Duan Quan is part of their system (and are mentioned in General Qi Jiguang’s Ming era book).

The famous and real Southern Song era teacher of Yue Fei, Zhou Tong, is considered the Chuojiao teacher of two of the people listed: Lin Chong and Lu Chunyi (plus his famous legendary student Yan Qing is also listed). Many people think that the Lu Chunyi and Yang Qing mentioned on this list are from the fictional “Water Margin” Ming era novel. But, according to family records of the Lu family that practices Yan Qing Boxing, these two people were actually from the Song dynasty and are were actual people, whose lives do not fit what the characters in the Water Margin book did. Perhaps that the novel based its characters on them, it is not known.

As I am sure that you know (posted more for other people's benefit):

This material is considered to have come from the efforts of Shaolin martial monk Abbot Fu Ju (福居), as written in the Luohan Xing Gong Duanda (罗汉行功短打) Tuo Pu (Arhat Exercising Merit Short Strike Illustrated Manuscripts). The book states that Shaolin martial monk abbot Fu Ju invited various martial arts masters three times for three years each (3x3=9), to help improve Shaolin’s martial arts, been received by a Wang Lang from the Shaolin area of Henan province sometime between the Song and Ming dynasties. Someone nicknamed “Wang Lang” had picked up their skills along with some Shaolin Quan, first developed a Praying Mantis style that eventually spread through Shandong province. A later variation of this book was called the Shaolin Robe and Bowl Authentic Transmission and it attributed to someone called Sheng Xiao Dao Ren; two versions may exist from 1762 and 1794.
Some say that various sources independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history collaborate with this information. Two books that survived the fire when Shaolin monastery was burned down in 1928 are: the "Records of Shaolin Monastery" (Shaolin Si Zhi) - written by Ye Feng, who lived from 1623-1687, and the "The Record of Shaolin Boxing". Both books have the same information about these same events from the beginning of Song Dynasty. One of the Shaolin monastery books provides almost the same list (with names in a different order) and ends it with the concluding passage, "All these were gathered and brought together by Chan (Zen) Master Fu Ju from Shaolin monastery." (Ilya Profatilov, History of Praying Mantis Kungfu article).
The book Manuscript of Shaolin Boxing said that the Great Song Emperor visited the Shaolin Temple and sent famous generals to Shaolin to teach monks about the art of war and at the same time learn from Shaolin’s Martial Arts. The Shaolin Annals of Martial Arts Monks records “The Great Emperor of Song Dynasty, Zhao Kuangyin, as a grandmaster of Kung Fu. He supported the head abbot of the Shaolin Temple and helped organize three National Competitions of Martial Arts for monks, his generals, and folk martial experts.” This represents the first time in history that a national level tournament combined the talents of Shaolin, the military and civilian martial expertise. In total, 16 formal systems came together and competed, with 13 different people staying for three years each to advise them (according to the Shaolin Records book). This makes sense since after subtracting Taizu and Han Tong leaves 16 people, then subtracting the three inspirational people of Lin Chong, Yan Qing, and Liu Xing, leaves 13 people.
The names of the 18 methods from the Shaolin source are:

1. Taizu Chang Quan Qi Shou (Ancestral Long Fist Rising Hands)
2. Han Tong’s Tong Bi Wei You (Through Arm Serves Excellently)
3. Zheng En’s Chan Feng You Miao (Binding Seal Especially Clever)
4. Wen Tian’s Duan Quan Geng Ji (Short Fist More Unusual)
5. Ma Jie‘s Duanda Zui Jia (Close Strikes Best [Most Fine])
6. Kong Heng‘s Hou Quan Qie Sheng (Monkey Fist Also Flourishes)
7. Huang Hu's Kao Shen Nan Jin (Leaning Body Difficult To Approach)
8. Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang Ji Fei (Face Palm Swiftly Flys)
9. Jin Xiang's Ke-Zi Tong Quan (Knocking Through Fist)
10. Liu Xing's Gou Lou Cai Shou (Hook Pulling/Embracing Picking Hand)
11. Tan Fang's Gun Lie Guan Er (Rolling Thunder Piercing Ears)
12. Yan Qing's Nian Na Yue Bu (Sticky Hold Leaps Not)
13. Lin Chong’s Yuan Yang Jiao (‘Mandarin Duck’ Kicks)
14. Meng Huo's Qi Shi Lian Zhang (Seven Forces/Postures Linking Palms)
15. Cui Lian's Wo Guo Pao Chui (Nest Confining Cannon Hammers)
16. Yang Gun's Kun Shou Lu Zhi Ru (Tying Hand Capture Vertically Enters)
17. Wang Lang’s Tang Lang Ke Di (Praying Mantis Subdues Enemy)
18. Gao Huai De's Shuai Liu Ying Beng (Throwing Grab Hard Collapse)

In the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual (Tanglang Quanpu) recorded the late 1700s, the unknown author provides this list (as one can see, some of the names are different from the Shaolin version and they are told in a different order. Also in the Shaolin version Wang Lang’s is just another technique, nothing is said about it being the culmination of all the others, as in the Praying Mantis version.):

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Taizu.
2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.
3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.
4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.
5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).
6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tong Quan) of Master Jin Xiang.
7. The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.
8. The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.
9. The "Short Boxing" (Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.
10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.
11. The "Cotton Fist" (Mien Quan) technique of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.
12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) technique by Master Huai De.
13. The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gun lou guan er) of Master Tan Fang.
14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick” (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.
15. The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.
16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.
17. The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Pao Chui) by Master Cui Lian.
18. “Praying Mantis (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

The problem is that before the Ming era, there is an empty gap of 800 years where there is little information available about martial arts. With the Jin invasion during the later Song Dynasty (and the Song house moving south) and then the Yuan Dynasty Mongol invasion soon after, there were much war time and much moving around and much hiding out. Many temples were burned down, between the invaders and the big fights between Taoists and Buddhists, there was lots of turmoil. Also much information was lost during the many periods of temple burning, book burnings, and the events of the Cultural Revolution, all destroying much valuable information.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's quote from my forthcoming book that is relevant:

"Describing the Six Harmonies, Li Shiming wrote, “The heart harmonizes with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe. Six basic forms, each form with the ability to evolve into 12 forms, the 12 forms are still able to be returned back to each parent form.” It was treasured by the Shaolin monks for generations. In addition, he also taught the ‘Secret 24 Character Formula.’ Within this ’24 Character Formula’ is the sentence, ‘Tongbi is famous for its dodging; Xinyi is good at evasion.’ Li's disciple, Ma Xueli, the founder of Luoyang Xinyi Quan, and grand disciple, Ma Sanyuan, visited the temple too. Today, the Ma family Xinyi Ba set and the Shaolin Xinyi Ba still appear to share many features, postures, and movements, showing that they arise from a common source."

This shows that Shaolin has had the Secret 24 Character Formula for a long time (these people are from the 1600s) and it was related to the new Tongbi Quan that influenced Ji Longfeng's creation of Xinyi Liuhe Quan (via Priest Dong Cheng, from Ji's visits to Qianzai Temple. Thus, Shaolin received this teaching from outside, but over time through Shaolin it further spread to other areas, such as Shandong.

[LFJ]

this video shows how the xiaotongbiquan sets run into each other as one. this is the first two together:
http://www.56.com/u50/v_MjA3MjQ4MzE.html

i dont like how its being done, but you get the point.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I got the remaining Shi Yongxin books yesterday.

Looking at
Yi Lu Tongbi Quan:
- The set shown in Shi Yongxin's book is the exact copy of the Yi Lu Tongbi Quan shown in Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book. All movements are the same (except once in a while one faces the opposite direction during a movement, not a big deal).

- the version of the set shown in the Shaolin Encyc. is different, it is shorter, missing the ending section shown in both Shi Yongxin's book and Liu Zhenhai's. Also, in some sections the movements are totally different or not in the same order.
So, this version doesn't match up too well after the first section it goes astray.

- The Xiao Tongbi in the Tagou books is way shorter, much simpler, gets mixed up in the middle as well.

My vote is that the most accurate version is the Shi Yong Xin/Liu Zhen Hai books version. It is the longest, about 76 postures, and shows most transitional movements.

What I want to know is, these people who make these books all live in very close proximity to each other, whereas we in this forum live thousands of miles away from each other. Why can't they get together and hash out what the definitive set is?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Now, looking at the Da Tongbi Quan:

First, there is an interesting note at the beginning of the book, which says something important. It says that the origin of the Da Tongbi Quan set goes way back to the early Song dynasty when Fuju was developing a compendium of Shaolin martial arts (you know the story). At that time, Fuju used a "discourse" by General Han Tong called "The Routine of Datongbi Boxing" and incorporated it into Shaolin. From then on many people practiced this set and tried to improve on it. Eventually, this led to the current version that exists today.

- In comparison to the version in Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Da Lu book, Liu's version is again much longer and much more complex, it is 32 postures and Shi Yongxin's is only 28 postures. In the last section, the two versions stray far from each other before coming back in and matching up again. Shi Yongxin's version has more kicks and some different moves too. It seems if you put the two together you would have one complete version of the set.

- The version in the Shaolin Encyc. is the most closest to the Shi Yongxin version. They mismatch very rarely.

- The Tagou version is pretty much the same as the Shi Yongxin and the Shaolin Encyc. for once, but again it looks simplified at time in movements.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, well, the three vcds for Yi lu, Er lu, and San lu, don't all at match up to the standard Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan set at all.
These three sets are some totally different routines, they seem to be one complete routine if done together.

In his Shaolin Da Lu book, he called all three sections of the standard Xiao Tongbi Quan just the Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set.
He shows a Tongbi Quan ER Lu set in the book, but it too doesn't match up to anything I have seen in these three VCDs; instead it is like the Da Tongbi Quan set.

So, I don't know what Xiao Tongbi Quan these three VCDs are showing. nor why it is called "xiao".
When I get the chance I will convert and edit to show the sets on YouTube.

Strange, but something seems familiar about his three VCD sets though.
Like I have seen them before under a different name somehow.

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

[LFJ]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

[Sal Canzonieri]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

Yes. the individual Er Lu was different that da hong quan san lu.
It looked more like a Pao Quan set.

[LFJ]

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1iFbG4s&feature=related

[Sal Canzonieri]

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1iFbG4s&feature=related

Yes, I see what you mean, thanks, I'll fix it.
Although, what I meant was how it moved was like Laohong quan. To me anyways. But, yep, your keen eye caught it again, cool!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys!

Just watched the LiuZhenHai 'xiaotongbi 1+2+3'.

Ok, this is really interesting!

first of all these three forms should be together as one.

Second, we all know Da TongBi right? As deyang does it?

Watch Liuzhenhais xiao tongbi yi lu again. It is Da tongbi quan!!! This may be a little difficult for you to see at first. but I can assure you. Keep watching through all 3 forms. YOu can see that the Da Tongbi set that many of us practice today (actually the most common shaolin form) is in fact an abreviation of this long set by liu zhen hai. Datongbi as deyang does it is mainly liuzhenhais yi lu but also contains some moves from er lo as well.

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

This is fascinating. It adds weight to the claim that liuzhenhai really has the oldest versions of forms. This is the only time I have seen this.

So His 1+2+3 are one form and is the set from which are modern Datongbi has been abreviated. I would suggest the modernDatongbi came from this set a very long time ago however.

This is really interesting, I will have to find his disciple to study this set.

[LFJ]

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

what the hell is he talking about?!

sorry, i dont really see it. i know several versions of datongbiquan as well. they do contain many of the same applications, but thats to be expected. its tongbiquan. but this set doesnt have many of the techniques from datongbiquan, and vice versa.

it also doesnt follow the same pattern or sequence in any way, there are just common individual techniques. except for the opening sequence which appears midway through datongbiquan, but it is also the opening sequence for xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan, which are practically the same sets. but these are not tongbiquan.

watching it over and over only shows me that they are related, but not that they are the same set.

[RenDaHai]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

[LFJ]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed. :confused:

[Sal Canzonieri]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

Hmm, just for clarification's sake.

Let's say you are correct, then.

Liu Zhenhai's Xiao Tong Bi vcds are the expanded (original, maybe) version of Da Tong Bei.

Okay, then his book shows a Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set which is clearly a more defined version of all three sections of what most have called Xiao Tongbi Quan.

So, he has a full version of both:
-Da Tongbi (Xiao Tongbi Quan 1-3 vcds)
- Xiao Tongbi (Tongbi Quan Yi Lu book)

Also, his book has a really nice but different Tongbi Quan Er Lu set.
It's not like the Xiao and Da sets are at all.

It's not a long set, but different movements than the other two routines.
I don't think it is Nanyuang Tongbi Quan, since that is 3 sections and this Er Lu is one section.

When I finally get the chance, I will post Liu's three vcds on YouTube, so LFJ can compare them to other sets done by others.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed. :confused:

ok, I posted all three of these vcds on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

So far, I haven't been able to see where Da Tongbi Quan is buried within.
These look like something different, even postures that aren't found in Da Tongbi Quan.

By the way, the Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set (3 sections) is EXACTLY the same in every way with Shi Yongxin's new book on Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, and both these sets are the same exact thing as Tagou book's Xiao Tongbi Quan.

[RenDaHai]

Ok, I'll make it easy for you:

Please bear in mind that when he performs some intermediate stances are cut out which others may emphasize. If we could see it broken down we would see more similarities. ALso note that when i count numbers I count a complete move as one move, so the drawing a bow double punch is counted as 1 move. Gong bu triple punch is 1 move etc.

LIU ZHEN HAI FORMS:

YI LU:

Move 1, parry and punch off front hand. same as Deyangs Da tongbei move 3.

Moves 2+3+4, kick, parry over head punch followed by tiptoe phoenix spreads wings. This is the same sequence as in Deyangs Da tongbei moves 6+7+8. This sequence appears a lot.

Move 7, Gong Bu Xie xing. Appears in Da tong bei as move 15.

Move 13, Ding/xu bu crossed palms. Appears as both 11 and 23 in Deyangs Da tongbei quan.

Move 18, Wind through the ears, same as DTB 24. Notice in this form he attacks low followed by wind through the ears. I n DTB it is wind through the ears followed by the low attack. One is in gong bu, on is on one leg, small difference.

This is on first look, there may be more. above is just yi lu, Look at er lu for the rest of DTB moves...below.


ER LU:

Move 12+13+14: two kicks-Slap the floor in Pu bu. This is the same move as in DTB move 17+18+19. Deyang does it with tiger claws, some do it with fists, its the same move.

Move 16, cross switch palms folled by low block. Appears in DTB as move 13. In DTB the block is in pu bu, in this it is on one leg, but the palm switch is the same. In this case the difference between one leg and xu bu is small.

Move 18, slap the elbow in Ma Bu. This is a very characterisitic move of DTB, appears in all versions of the form as move 14.

Move 22, ma bu punch with parry over head. Appears also as move 22 in DTB, some versions use gong bu. The move 21-22 in this form is a similar piece of shou fa to the three strikes after pu bu slap the floor in most DTB. Stances are different but i think it represents the same bit.

Move 23, Xu bu with fists guarding, like a western boxer might hold his hands 100 yrs ago. This appears in DTB as move 5.

Move 24, double strike, appears in DTB as move 20.

Move 27+28, xu bu with zuo shan hands follwed by parry and punch off front hand. Move 2+3 in DTB.

Move 30, xu bu low block, appears in DTB move 13.

Move 33+34+35 same phoenix spreads wings sequence DTB 6+7+8.

Move 36+37, jump with ma bu parry follwed by drawing a bow double punch. This appears in DTB as move 9+10 (i count the double bow punch as 1 move).

Move 38 Ma bu slap elbow again, DTB 14.

Move 40, double push crossed palms, appears in some versions of DTB, but not Deyangs.

Move 41+42+43 Triple kicking sequence which appears at the end of most versions of DTB.

SAN LU:

San contains some similar moves, crossed palm in tiptoe, pu bu slap floor- double strike, drawing a bow double punch.

There are probably more similarities, but thats all I see for the moment. Without actually learning the form its hard to see. Clearly there are big differences, but given the nature of LZH's forms, I beleive this is an older version of DTB, or an interesting mid evolutionary stage. Da tong bei has always seemed strange to me as it doesn't go with the classic 3 form yi lu tong bei, and it is too short to represent a style in its own right. So this long form would really put it in context.

[LFJ]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

I have to agree with LFJ here.

And really you (RenDaHai) already did agree with LFJ in that you basically said that this 3 road Tongbi Quan set of Liu Zhenhai appears to be the more complete and fuller set. And, perhaps that it is older than the Da Tongbi Quan set.

That would mean that, while they aren't the same set (meaning the 3 section set as an expanded version of the Da Tongbi), the Da Tongbi set seems to be a closely related set, perhaps even sharing the same roots as this bigger 3 road set.

Because of the specific sequencing of its postures and having postures unique to this 3 road set, you really can't say that it is simply an expanded version of Da Tongbi (though that would have been a nice and easy fix), the most that can be said is that they appear closely related and share some roots.

What is really weird to me is that the sections end with the Lao Hong Quan salute (Shoot the Wild Swan posture). I have never seen that in either of the Shaolin Xiao or Da Tongbi Quan sets. Only in Shaolin Lao Hong Quan and in Yellow River Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist).

This 3 road routine is much closer to Hong Quan / Pao Quan postures as well. It makes it look much more older in origin, and perhaps it is. Hence you see Da Tong Bi Quan in it, and by that nature, Xiao Tongbi Quan should be apparent within it as well (which Liu Zhenhai and Shi Yongxin both call Tongbi Quan Yi Lu).

If this 3 road set IS the older set, it really should be much more like TZ Chang Quan (which means related to Hong Quan and Pao Quan - Song to Ming times) than the later developed sets (Qing times). And indeed this 3 road set does appear to share those attributes.

Shi Yongxin did say that the movements from current standard Da Tongbi Quan set were what's evolved from people playing with the original early Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan that Shaolin had adopted.

So, it can be possible that Liu Zhenhai's 3 road set is also derived from the same Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan material, perhaps an older version, from which Da Tongbi was eventually developed from or developed in parallel with.

From what I see, I think that Xiao Tongbi Quan / Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is a newer Tongbi Quan, developed from Ape boxing and other Shaolin sets.
And, Da Tongbi Quan and this 3 Road Tongbi Quan (which Liu calls Xiao TB) was directly developed from Hantong Tongbi Quan.

(Note, not to confuse General Hantong Tongbi Quan with Hongtong Tongbei Quan from Shanxi province.)

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

[LFJ]

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.

[Sal Canzonieri]

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.

okay, I asked you to translate for that reason.

Most Qing dynasty created sets were developed as a reconstruction of Ming era Shaolin. After 1765, people came back to Shaolin and reintroduced martial arts after being mostly a place that most used for religious practices (I think around 1735 the Qing government was pushing Shaolin to stick with religion and drop their martial arts traditions.).
Hence, you see in the Shaolin encyc. that a lot of sets were developed in the later Qing dynasty from the remnants of the Ming era sets (Chang quan, pao quan, luohan quan, etc.; Rou Quan was still practiced by in secret by the eldest monks).

So, also you can see that this 3 road Tongbi Quan of Liu's looks to be something that the folk masters preserved from an earlier time, outside what was newly being developed at Shaolin itself.
That's why I think that it is a lot closer to much older Shaolin quan that existed before the later Qing era.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Since Shi Yongxin's book on Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is exactly the same as Liu Zhenhai's books showing this set using the same name (which others call Xiao Tongbi Quan):

THEN, if Shi Yongxin does an Er Lu book, it should be exactly the same as Liu's book that shows an Er Lu set (which is like Da Tongbi, but not like his 3 roads Xiao tongbi VCD series). Again, it's a very different set than people have usually seen, it is a lot like Luohan Quan. It's a very cool set, I hope that Shi Yongxin does a book on it. It is a much fuller version of Da Tongbi Quan.

I hope he does many more books, especially since I have all of the one he did so far.
He said he was going to do 365 sets, ending with the weapons sets.

Maybe someone can find out if he is planning on issuing some more soon!

I would be great to see books on Luohan Yi and Er Lu, Tongbi Er Lu, that's for sure!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.


On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).


One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

I think that, from what you are saying here, we all really are saying the same thing in a different way.
I think that the three of us can at least agree that these sets were "cut from the same cloth", to put it another way. For sure they are related, closely.
Why? That's still to be learned. And the person that might be able to tell us has possibly died (maybe our questions would have perked up his spirit and he would have lasted a little longer, we'll never know).


The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.

That's very possible, most of time this is true.


On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

He published about 10 books, I have most of them. Each has at least one set that I have never seen before. Most have same sets as others but more transition movements shown.
yeah, I'd like to see the Er Lu Tongbi Quan somewhere else too.
That's why I was hoping that Shi Yongxin was going to do it in a future release of books. Why have an Yi Lu tongbi Quan and leave it at that or a San Lu Luohan and not show the Yi and Er Lu's?


By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).

I think that they are going to be using different folk masters.
These books are way too deluxe and amazing to stop at these few. They are like teasers! they just make me want more!!!!


One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

OKAY, now that I find VERY significant historically! Because that would put things in perspective.
Being a 'Mian Zhang tongbi quan' would be placing the set (much like Shi Yongxin said that the original movements from Da Tongbi came from Hantong Tongbi material that was from early Song era times of Fu Ju's survey of masters and creation of Shaolin sets from this meeting.) during the times of the Song era masters meeting, since Mian Zhang was one citation made (specifically: "Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang Ji Fei (Face Palm Swiftly Flys) ")."Tongbi" just meant a type of long fist technique during that time, hence there would be a Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang and a Hantong's tongbi quan and even others.

So, Shaolin Da Tongbi and Liu Zhenhai Xiao Tongbi 1-3 Roads would be derived from Fu Ju's injection of (General) Hantong's Tongbi quan into the formation of early Song era Shaolin quan

(NOTE: in light of my following posts, then what was saying here is most relevant, in that if Liu's Xiao tongbi Quan ER lu is the exact same set as Tai Zu Chang Quan Er Lu, THEN, indeed these sets are derived from when TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu was created, during the time of Fu Ju and the masters meetings and the subsequent set creations.)

and

Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan and Liu Zhenhai / Shi Yongxin & Shi Yan Zhuang Yi Lu Tongbi Quan would be from that same situation, derived from Song era Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang tongbi quan (nowadays people translate that as Cotton Palm, but it was written as Face Palm, a movement that fits when Song TZ Chang Quan and other sets have a 'face slap" movement. This is also seen in Song era Yue Fei Ba Shou routines, there is always this Face Slap movement. It is also found in many things that are said to be historically related, for instance Chen Taiji Quan, Tong BEI Quan, Shaolin Ape Monkey Quan, some Ba Shan Fan sets, and more.

That would make a lot of sense to me, considering all the material out there about Fu Ju and the different masters meetings starting in 961 (3 meetings of 3 years each, 9 years total).

[Sal Canzonieri]

This was pointed out to me by my KF friend Johan:

This video labeled - Shaolin Luo Han Pu Shen Shi Ba Shou - Arhat Protect Body 18 Hands :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAaj0_r85mM

is basically the same set as the Shaolin Da Tongbei Quan.
Some movements are a little different, some missing and ends much sooner.
Compare to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

This made me think:

If maybe this were the original version of it (as preserved in this lineage), then it should be shorter, 18 postures, which it is. It is should be missing the postures added from Ape-Monkey Boxing and other sets incorporated into Da Tongbi Quan.

Maybe this was the Luohan Quan core from which Da Tongbi Quan was developed from?

But, I remembered I had another video of the Luohan Pu Shen set, and it is different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

---------------

New development:

This set from the video link is embedded in the first third of Liu Zhenhai's Tongbi Quan Erlu set, which is shown in his Shaolin Da Lu book!
So, that would mean that his Er Lu is a more detailed Da Tongbi Quan set?

Liu's set from the book has a different salute that happens before the salute shown in Shi Yongxin's Da Tongbi Quan yellow book.

Man! This was like finding a skeleton key and it opening a bunch of hidden doors!

Once you start at the right place, Liu's Tongbi Quan Er Lu set is for sure the Da Tongbi Quan set, but with missing movements that fill in between the Shaolin and Tagou version's postures.
Liu's has 32 postures, and 46 movements!
Shaolin's has 27 postures and much less movements.

Well, another mystery solved, as far as what the Tongbi Quan sets in Liu's Shaolin Da Lu book are.
Xiao Tongbi Quan (74 postures / 100 movements!) = Yi lu Tongbi
and Da Tongbi Quan (32 postures / 46 movements) = Er lu Tongbi

I, at this point, feel that his book routines are the most complete.
You can easily see how they contain the necessary transition movements between the postures. Routine after routine.

Thanks Liu Zhenhai (from wherever you are watching).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, now things are getting weirder!

My friend Johan, Shaolin teacher in Spain, translated the names of the postures from Liu Zhenhai's three Xiao Tongbi Quan vcds.
AND I discovered that the ER LU set on the vcd is almost identical to the Tai Zu Chang Quan ER LU set postures named in the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyclopedia!!!!!
The postures not named as still there, just Liu uses a different way of saying the same thing.

(I made bold the postures that are exactly the same in this Er Lu as in TZ Chang Quan ER Lu and they are in the exact same sequence too! Whatever is not bold, Liu uses a different way to say it. A few postures (about 4-5) are missing in Liu's ER Lu set, but almost the whole routine is identical! Now we can see what this long lost Shaolin set looked like! I wonder if the Yi and San Lu are like other TZ sets? This San Lu is not at all like the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan San Lu set, except for the first posture.)

Here's Johan's translation of the 3 sets (I adjusted some misspellings, etc):

Shaolin Xiao TongBi Quan - Liu Zhenhai VCDs

YiLu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó Child worships the Buddha
2. 转身一拳 zhuǎn shēn yī Quan Turn body one fist
3. 侧脚探马捶 Cè jiao tàn ma chuí lateral foot explore horse hammer
4. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind the body
5. 弓步冲拳 gong bu chong quan gong bu rush fist
6. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
7. 蝎子尾右 Xíezi wei yòu scorpion tail right
8. 洛步斜行 luò bù xie xing descending step slanted step
9. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
10. 双?手 shuang liao/ca shou double sweep/leave hand
11. 转身 zhuan shen turn body
12. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
13. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan gǎo?Shou turn body single ? hand
14. 上步枪手 shang bu qiang shou step forward spear hand
15. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
16. 上步冲天炮 shang bu chong tian pao step forward rush heaven cannon
17. 转身扳拳 zhuan shen ban quan turn body pull out fist
18. 猿猴束身 yuan hou shu shen ape monkey binds body
19. 插花十字手 cha hua shize shou insert flower cross hands
20. 起身碰腿 qi shen pèng tui rise body bump leg
21. 怀中抱月 huai zhong bao yue chest center embraces moon
22. 猿猴摘桃 yuan hou zhai tao ape monkey plucks peach
23. 双开弓 shuang kai gong double open bow
24. 下阴捶 xia yin chui down yin hammer
25. 三崩手 san bēng shou 3 collapse hands
26. 提手捶 di shou chui carry hands hammer
27. 冲右肘 chong you zhou rush right elbow
28. 肘顶七星 yun ding qi xing cloud over peak seven stars
29. 单鞭 dan bian single whip
30. 五花坐山 wu hua zuo shan 5 flowers sit on mountain
31. 童子拜佛 tong zi fen fu child prays to buddha

erlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child prays to buddha
2. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
3. 双?手 shuang lou Shou double pulling hands
4. 转身捶 zhuan shen chui turn body hammer
5. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
6. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan jian? shou turn body single donating? Hand
7. 右侧脚 you cè jiao right lateral foot
8. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
9. 斜行式 xie xing shi slanted step posture
10. 转身崩腿 zhuan shen beng tui turn body toppling leg
11. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
12. 转身一掌 zhuan shen yi zhang turn body 1 palm
13. 退步一掌 tui bu yi zhang step back 1 palm
14. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
15. 蝎子尾右侧脚 xie-zi wei you ce jiao scorpion tail right lateral foot
16. 单叉式 dan cha shi single fork/insert posture
17. 起身连三拳 qi shen lian San quan rise body connect 3 fists
18. 交五花 jiāo wu hua intersecting 5 flowers
19. 亮支羽式 liàng zhi yu shi Show raised feather posture
20. 转身双捶 zhuan shen shuang chong chui turn body double rush hammers
21. 双分架 shuang fen jia double divide frame
22. 转?撑 zhuan ? cheng turn ? stab
23. 转身左抓提 zhuan shen zuo zhua di turn body left grab (w claw) lift/carry
24. 转身右抓提 Zhuan shen you zhua di turn body right grab (w claw) lift/carry
25. 探马拳 Tan ma quan explore horse fist
26. 连步一捶 lian bu yi chui connect step one hammer
27. 枪拳束身 qiang quan shu shen spear fist bind body
28. 起身双出捶 qi shen shuang qu chui Rise Body double leave hammer
29. 倒步 dao bu reverse step,
30. 斜行 xie xing slanted row
31. 起身?虎式 qi shen kua hu shi rise body stride Tiger posture
32. 上步一拳 shang bu yi quan advance step one fist
33. 退步连环拳 tui bu lian huán quan step back connected loop fist
34. 左右摆莲 zuo you bai lian left right swing lotus
35. 二起脚 er qi jiao two rising feet
36. 落底 探马拳 Luo di tan ma quan fall on bottom explore horse fist
37. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
38. 转身砸拳 zhuan shen za quan turn body smash fist
39. 双手开弓 shuang shou kai gong double hands open the bow
40. 转身裏 撑架 zhuan shen lǐ cheng jia turn body inside Stab frame
41. 转身双推掌 zhuan shen shuang tui zhang turn body double push palms
42. 右侧脚 you ce jiao right lateral foot
43. 蝎子尾旋风脚 xiezi wei xuan feng jiao scorpion tail whirlwind foot
44. 拉弓式 la gong shi shoot bow posture
45. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha

sanlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child worships buddha
2. 转身双枪 zhuan shen shuang qiang shou turn body double spear hand
3. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
4. 上步砸拳 shang bu za quan step up smash fist
5. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
6. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xǐ liǎn white monkey washes face
7. 转身一捶 zhuan shen yi chui turn body one hammer
8. 迎面捶 yingmian chui face to face /headlong hammer
9. 上步连三捶 shang bu lian san chui step up connect 3 hammers
10. 转身单叉 zhuan shen dan cha turn body single fork
11. 起身双捶 qi shen shuang chui rise body double hammers
12. 转身右侧脚 zhuan shen you ce jiao turn body right lateral foot
13. 上步双推掌 shang bu shuang tui zhang step up double push palms
14. 虎步束身 hu bu shu shen tiger step bind body
15. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xi lian white monkey washes face
16. 转身上冲拳 zhuan shen shang chong quan turn body upper rush fist
17. 束身一拳 shu shen yi quan bind body one punch
18. 里扫腿 li sao tui inside sweep kick
19. 起身迎面 qi shen yingmian ? Rise body headlong ?
20. 原地一拳 yuán di yi quan level ground one punch
21. 外摆脚 wai bai jiao outside swing foot
22. 拉弓架 la gong jia pull bow frame
23. 坐山架 zuoshan jia sit on the mountain frame
24. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha


Review the video of Liu's 3 sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

Now it makes sense why LFJ and I thought it was more related to Lao Hong Quan and so on, and why the sets looked so familiar to me: it is because these sets are from Shaolin TZ Chang Quan system!

And, other Chinese researchers have observed that Shaolin TZ Chang Quan, Hpng Quan, and Pao Quan were the source of Tongbi (and later Tongbei) Quan.

So, what does this mean about Shaolin Tongbi Quan?

Rendahai here pointed out that these three sets from Liu contain all the movements from the Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets.
Well, that would mean that the Xiao and Da sets were also derived from TZ Chang Quan, as some people's research has shown.
(and he already documented the better known Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan in his Shaolin Da Lu book, as Tongbi Quan Yi and Er Lu sets).

(By the way, the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyc. has a bunch more Tongbi Quan sets described, but they are very unlike any of these Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets we have been talking about so far)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Compare Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu VCD set above to lyrics to the following TZ Chang Quan ER Lu (you can see that they match up!):

Er Lu Shaolin Chang Quan (2nd Road Shaolin Long Fist – Tai Zu)

1. Zhuan Shen Chong Tian Pao = Turn body Rush-toward Sky Cannon
2. Shuang Lou shou = both hug-pull hands
3. Zhuan shen chui – turn body hammer
4. Yin-Mian chui = face to face hammer
5. Zhuan shen yi chang = turn body one palm
6. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
7. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
8. Xie xing beng toi = slanting shape stretch leg
9. Xiao su shen = small tighten body
10. Ke xiao-toi = knock/bump small-leg (calf kick)
11. Tui bu yi chang = back step one palm
12. Jin bu you chang = forward step right palm
13. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
14. Zhuan shen you cai jiao = Turn body right trampling foot
15. Yue bu dan cha = leaping step single fork/branch
16. Lian san chui = connected 3 hammers
17. Jiao wu hua = Intersect 5 flowers
18. Liang-chi shi = Show wing position
19. Shuang tuo zhong = Both lift/support with palms the bell-clock (pendulum)
20. Shuang fen-pi = both apart split
21. Zuo quo shi = left wrap position
22. Shuang cheng zhou = both support/prop up elbows
23. Zuo zhua ti = left grasp+lift
24. You zhua ti = right grasp+lift
25. Dan yun ding = single cloud touch on head (peak/top)
26. You da chui = right strike hammer
27. Jia-qi chui = set up/erect lift hammer
28. Bao quan su shen = embrace/wrap fist close body
29. Shuang chu chui = both exits hammer
30. Dao bu = reverse (empty) step
31. Xie xing = slanted shape
32. Hai di pao = ocean bottom cannon
33. Kua hu shi = stride tiger position
34. Shang bu yi chui = lift-forward step one hammer
35. Tui bu yi chui = backward step one hammer
36. You yi chui = again one hammer
37. Shou bu yi chui = trap/gather step one hammer
38. Zuo bai lian = Left wave lotus
39. You bai lian = right wave lotus
40. Er qi jiao = two lift feet
41. Shan men pao = flash gate cannon
42. Wu hua shou = five flower hand
43. Xiao su shen = small close body
44. Ke xiao-toi = bump/knock small leg (calf)
45. Zhuan shen za chui = turn body bang hammer
46. Shuang shou kai gong = both hands open bow
47. Xiang you guo = towards right wrap
48. Shaung Cheng Zhou = both stretch elbows
49. Shuang fen pi = both apart split
50. Zhuan shen tui chang = turn body push palm
51. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
52. Xie-zi chi-wei – scorpion wing-tail
53. Xuan feng jiao = tornado feet
54. La gong shi = Pull bow position

[LFJ]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it? :confused:

[Sal Canzonieri]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it? :confused:

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.

[LFJ]

well, unless they do know, but purposely obscure the material- still leaving just enough hints for those of us keen and enthusiastic enough to bother figuring it out. what fun would it be otherwise? :)

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.


Reply]
These look familiar to me as well. I suspect I have something similar in my video archives. Maybe something from Jamie's Tai Tzu system? Maybe it's just because they have so much of the same flavor as Lao Hong, and Shaolin da hong?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Okay, just to complicate things even further, there is a new Liu Zhen Hai VCD out,
it is called Tongbi Quan, and it is not the same as the three ones we have been discussing.

It is demonstrated by the bald guy with beard (name escapes me at moment).

少林通臂拳-教学与実戦

AND

to top off the confusion there is another new one (same demonstrator), hah ha:

少林朝陽拳-教学与実戦

I haven't seen neither of these in stores in Chinatown NYC where I got the rest of his VCDs from.

[LFJ]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

[Sal Canzonieri]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

Thanks for the name reminder.

These two VCDs were the last two they made, I don't see them on CMAOD nor at Plum either. I haven't seen them in NYC either. I didn't have the demo VCD, since I had most of the other vcds. Well, I guess I need to find these, just to be complete.

So, if this is Da Tongbi, then it is Tongbei ER LU in Liu's book. His forms shown in the books are very detailed and so much more complete than any of their videos. Weird. Well, the videos go to the general public, whereas the books are for people that are more serious.
One of his Shaolin books is all over the Chinese used books sites right now, it has 5 Pao Quan sets detailed in it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, now that what's one Liu Zhenhai's Luohan Quan Vcds is figured out, we're still left with the final mystery of what these Tongbi Quan sets are.

Wish I can find something more about set 1 and set 3.

At least knowing that set 2 is Shaolin Chang Quan Er Lu points to something I hope.

I want to know what this means?

[Eugene]

is it safe to say that like, before one learns Da Hong Quan one must learn Xiao Hong Quan it is the same with Da Tong Bi Quan must be learned after Xiao Tong Bi Quan. And the Tong Bi as in De Yangs Demonstration.

Mr. Canzonieri deserves a stutue of some kind !

Its wonderfull that things get sort out !

I did not read somewhere why de Tong Bi Quan is the third routine in the 10 set but then again I didnt read all info to this day yet.

Does anyone have this experience with * Back Through Boxing * or Full arm Boxing ? That at the end of the routine energie fills the arms ?

And also with all respect, what makes these routines called Tong Bi if half the postures also excist in other routines ...because I am wondering if some postures excist in other sets how can it be called * Full Arm Boxing or Back Through Boxing * I am only thinking that this Energie going to the arms also happens in other sets maybe.

I really want to understand this Boxing method :)

Peace Eugene !

[Sal Canzonieri]

is it safe to say that like, before one learns Da Hong Quan one must learn Xiao Hong Quan it is the same with Da Tong Bi Quan must be learned after Xiao Tong Bi Quan. And the Tong Bi as in De Yangs Demonstration.

Mr. Canzonieri deserves a stutue of some kind !

Its wonderfull that things get sort out !

I did not read somewhere why de Tong Bi Quan is the third routine in the 10 set but then again I didnt read all info to this day yet.

Does anyone have this experience with * Back Through Boxing * or Full arm Boxing ? That at the end of the routine energie fills the arms ?

And also with all respect, what makes these routines called Tong Bi if half the postures also excist in other routines ...because I am wondering if some postures excist in other sets how can it be called * Full Arm Boxing or Back Through Boxing * I am only thinking that this Energie going to the arms also happens in other sets maybe.

I really want to understand this Boxing method :)

Peace Eugene !

No, Xiao firs, then Da in the Hong Quan.

But in Tongbi Quan, it is Da first, then Xiao.

Most of the Shaolin sets build upon previous sets learned, so that why you see some postures from other sets.
The sets are learned in the order of skills to be mastered.

If you practice the sets correctly, you don't have to worry about what 'energy' is doing what, it happens automatically.

Tongbi means really (not what most people say, because they don't understand how to translate concepts from Chinese to English) to "pierce through the arms".
It's concerned with getting power into the strike from the floor through the heel through the leg to the knee to spiral around the waist (intensify) through the spine to the shoulders through the elbows to the hands and out.

It's what a gibbon does when it swings from vine to vine. The gibbon has to reach out (pierce) and point. Watch some videos of this animal.

The more you do, the more you will understand.

As one of my teacher's teacher once said: "You do 20 times then you tell me if you have question".

[Eugene]

Sal Canzonieri ->>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

Does this mean that the performence of the Da Tong Bi of this video, is the best version to see ? I am from Holland and my English is not in the best condition :)

Greetings from Eugene

[Eugene]

And btw Ty for your awnser, I will check some vids of a Gibbon :)

Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal Canzonieri ->>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k (old Shaolin way of doing the set - same as in Shaolin Encyclopedia, but with more transition movements shown. Longer and more detailed than Tagou version of this set. Still not as many postures and movements as Liu Zhenhai's Er Lu version, but very close.) THE BEST VERSION OF SHAOLIN DA TONGBI QUAN readily available to see.

Does this mean that the performence of the Da Tong Bi of this video, is the best version to see ? I am from Holland and my English is not in the best condition :)

Greetings from Eugene

Yes. it is, until something better comes along.

[Eugene]

Very Cool, because I love the way this old man does his set.

Greetings Eugene

[Eugene]

I have watched the old Da Tong alomost all day and noticed that after each blow or when he has a fist he, seems to grab some thing * maybe fruit * and goes into a fist again.

Especially when he comes up from 0:22 sec, the left hands grabs a apple lets say, or someones wrist, it has the move of an ape

at :27 secs he closes his hands into fist, or grabs something again

also from the 0:36 sec, he seems to grab something a bit far away, also maybe a apple or a wrist ??

The whole form seems to be on grabbing something, or taking something and then return it with blows, maybe I am way off this now, but ..... if it is of 1 % help to the Tong subject..

( I hope there is not a posture describing of these moves, then am screwd ! :P

Peace Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have watched the old Da Tong alomost all day and noticed that after each blow or when he has a fist he, seems to grab some thing * maybe fruit * and goes into a fist again.

Especially when he comes up from 0:22 sec, the left hands grabs a apple lets say, or someones wrist, it has the move of an ape

at :27 secs he closes his hands into fist, or grabs something again

also from the 0:36 sec, he seems to grab something a bit far away, also maybe a apple or a wrist ??

The whole form seems to be on grabbing something, or taking something and then return it with blows, maybe I am way off this now, but ..... if it is of 1 % help to the Tong subject..

( I hope there is not a posture describing of these moves, then am screwd ! :P

Peace Eugene

The rule is "when you reach out , always return with something back".

[Eugene]

Thanks again Mr, Canzonieri,

Is there any information available about the Da Tong Bi posutures set. ( the lyrics )

of Shi De Yang or this Old Monk ?

Greetings Eugene

[RenDaHai]

Hey Sal,

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

You posted i couldn't see before... Now i do I think it is really amazing. This really is the best Da tong bei I've seen. It also unites the differences in the wu gu lun form, without dropping any moves. It is such a great version. But you say liu zhen hais book is even better??

Do you know anything about the monk in the video?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks again Mr, Canzonieri,

Is there any information available about the Da Tong Bi posutures set. ( the lyrics )

of Shi De Yang or this Old Monk ?

Greetings Eugene

Yes, if you read Chinese.

But there is one book in Chinese and English of the set (exactly like the old man does it) that was published by Shaolin itself.
But, I don't know where you can get it on America. The book has a yellow cover.
step by step in english, in detail after detail, none better out there.
I ordered the whole set of 9 (or so) different books from Japan.

If you read the beginning of the Shaolin Tongbi Quan thread (do a search) here, there is tons of info about these books, also the same book series is mentioned in the Shaolin Luohan Quan thread.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

You posted i couldn't see before... Now i do I think it is really amazing. This really is the best Da tong bei I've seen. It also unites the differences in the wu gu lun form, without dropping any moves. It is such a great version. But you say liu zhen hais book is even better??

Do you know anything about the monk in the video?

Liu's version in his book has all the missing movements at the end of the set, and the transition movements between major ones.

This guy does it the best as far as videos go, it's very impressive.

I forgot who he is.
I think someone else had mentioned who he was.
someone's sure to know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And btw Ty for your awnser, I will check some vids of a Gibbon :)

Eugene

best example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV-gOL4t9Vk

(other apes arms are too short to do this the same way)

Tongbi is like this, spear the arm out with whole body movement (hip swings from one side to other, like the center moving part of a washing machine does).

Now, these are called "Ape-Monkeys" in Chinese.

On the other hand, the style known as Tongbei Quan is based on the Yellow or Snowy or Hill Macaques, which live in the snowy mountain areas.

[RenDaHai]

@sal

Hey, You know the old guy from the Da Tong Bi video?

Well I just noticed that the same guy is on the intro sequence of LiuZhenHai's VCDs, performing a bit of xiao hong quan.

ANyway, by the looks of the video i think they must have a vcd of him as well! that would be awesome. Also it means he must be realated to LZH's lineage in some way. ALl the videos of him look slightly older, perhaps he is even LZH's master??

I'll do my best to uncover the mystery...

[Eugene]

HERE are the studens of the cool old man, I just came across it by accident, I was looking for Luohan and end up with Da Tong Bi ! haha ( I know this video is somewhere else on this forum )

http://crazymotion.net/shaolin-da-tongbi-quan/wUW4eGQwTNpcjAy.html

[LFJ]

yes, that one is on youtube as well.

this version fills in so many of the missing transitional techniques and postures. i like it a lot.

[Eugene]

I like it alot also, the video really stimulates me.

I dont know when this was recorded, maybe the 80s ? And the man looks like 70 maybe here, so he might have learned this form around 1920, like when he was 10 years....a really wild guess ...

I dont understand yet why Xiao Tong Bi is * a Big set *
And Da Tong Bi is a small set because of the names, I watched Liu his 3 Roads of Xiao , but I dont understand the Xiao of it.

How can I see a road ? Like a free way ? or like 3 different directions from a crosspoint also car speaking to understand it :)

Peace Eugene

[RenDaHai]

Ok, on the name of TongBei quan,

Sal and I were speculating on this earlier on the thread.

But recently I have uncovered what i beleive is the best explanation;

For those of you familier with ZhenQiGong there is a concept called the Micro-cosmic orbit (xiao jiu tian). It involves circulating Qi on a path from the dan tian, through hui yin, then up through the sacrum, past the kidneys, all the way up the spine, past the jade pillow, and to the top of the head (bai hu) then down past the third eye, through the tongue (or to both sides) and down through the throat, past the solar plexus and back down to the dan tian. This forms a circle.

THere is also a method of using explosive power which starts by moving the hips around the dan tian (the center of mass) and goes in a circular path , up THROUGH THE BACK to the arms. It follows the same path. The 'XIaoJiuTian'.

In zhenqigong when we have feeling throughout an area we say 'TOng', complete, through, together, harmonious. Bei means back. So like 'Tong Bei' means that you have already unlocked the spine to qi flow, or that you are able to pass power up through your spine from your center fo mass, up to your arms. So the style is called TongBei.

TongBi will be similar, but for the arms. TongBei is kind of a profound name that implies the practicioner is already practicing Neigong.

[bawang]

anyone know how to contact sal canzonierir? i tried pming him but he didnt respond

[Graculus]

Did you try his website? http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchool/index.html
It has a contact email for him.

I know he was always a busy guy, and sometimes touring with his band, so he might be away for a while.



Graculus
http://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[bawang]

u kn ow now that ive seen his website i dont feel like contacting him anymore.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Did you try his website? http://www.bgtent.com/CMAQigongSchool/index.html
It has a contact email for him.

I know he was always a busy guy, and sometimes touring with his band, so he might be away for a while.



Graculus
http://ichijoji.blogspot.com

I'm sorry that my website upset you.
You should have looked at this one instead: http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/index.htm

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ok, on the name of TongBei quan,

Sal and I were speculating on this earlier on the thread.

But recently I have uncovered what i beleive is the best explanation;

For those of you familier with ZhenQiGong there is a concept called the Micro-cosmic orbit (xiao jiu tian). It involves circulating Qi on a path from the dan tian, through hui yin, then up through the sacrum, past the kidneys, all the way up the spine, past the jade pillow, and to the top of the head (bai hu) then down past the third eye, through the tongue (or to both sides) and down through the throat, past the solar plexus and back down to the dan tian. This forms a circle.

THere is also a method of using explosive power which starts by moving the hips around the dan tian (the center of mass) and goes in a circular path , up THROUGH THE BACK to the arms. It follows the same path. The 'XIaoJiuTian'.

In zhenqigong when we have feeling throughout an area we say 'TOng', complete, through, together, harmonious. Bei means back. So like 'Tong Bei' means that you have already unlocked the spine to qi flow, or that you are able to pass power up through your spine from your center fo mass, up to your arms. So the style is called TongBei.

TongBi will be similar, but for the arms. TongBei is kind of a profound name that implies the practicioner is already practicing Neigong.

This is correct, according to any Tongbei I have learned.
I my research, Tongbei was developed from Shaolin Hong Quan material and Taoist sword fighting and 13 postures material, hence it would have a serious qi through the back component. They use the ape as a symbol for illustrating the loose quality that tongbei movements have that allow one to bring qi from the ground up through the back and out the arms.

The founder of Tongbei, originally called it Tongbi, when he was fresh from learning Shaolin Hong Quan and Taizu Chang Quan; and then when he was much older and more experienced and greatly influenced by Taoist internal martial arts, he changed it to Tongbei.

[RenDaHai]

Cool Info.


Oh AND

http://crazymotion.net/shaolin-da-tongbi-quan/w5tsE3EpxvIwjAy.html

Remember This video??

THis is certainly the best Da tongbei I have seen. Now I can confirm that it is Master CUI XIQI. Cui Xiqi Da shi was born in 1922! He is still alive and is perhaps the oldest true shaolin master of the current time. He is famous for his skill and though you may not have seen him much before you will certainly have seen his disciples.

He himself was a disciple of the great 'Li GenShen' who was a lay disciple who taught Shaolin in 'DaJinDian' (a town just south of the dengfeng) back in the 1930's. A vast amount of the Forms we currently think of as core shaolin are the versions passed down by LiGenShen. But as we can see from this video the forms have degraded somewhat. This is I beleive how Datongbei should be.

It is still possible to find this master. He is a direct link to the shaolin practiced before the temple burned down in 1928.

[Royal Dragon]

Cool Info.


Oh AND

http://crazymotion.net/shaolin-da-tongbi-quan/w5tsE3EpxvIwjAy.html

Remember This video??

THis is certainly the best Da tongbei I have seen. Now I can confirm that it is Master CUI XIQI. Cui Xiqi Da shi was born in 1922! He is still alive and is perhaps the oldest true shaolin master of the current time. He is famous for his skill and though you may not have seen him much before you will certainly have seen his disciples.

He himself was a disciple of the great 'Li GenShen' who was a lay disciple who taught Shaolin in 'DaJinDian' (a town just south of the dengfeng) back in the 1930's. A vast amount of the Forms we currently think of as core shaolin are the versions passed down by LiGenShen. But as we can see from this video the forms have degraded somewhat. This is I beleive how Datongbei should be.

It is still possible to find this master. He is a direct link to the shaolin practiced before the temple burned down in 1928.

Your Link goes to some sort of strange survey site.


EDIT] Never mind, you have to right click-properties-copy the url and paste into the address window and it works.

[sanshuuk]

To add to the list

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uje4VurcOmo

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NrLSCa16no&lc=nDPQSUQrM-dZjTrgIJg3IqGx0R2w6172tXJZDx8TCSc&feature=inbox

Is this Cui Xi Qi ?


Kind Regards,
Xian

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I have been thinking about this. It's been proposed that the Tongbi comes form Hongquan and Pao quan right?

But if it's from Han Tong, then wouldn't it really be a ROOT, or at least a parallel evolution to Hong and Pao Quan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have been thinking about this. It's been proposed that the Tongbi comes form Hongquan and Pao quan right?

But if it's from Han Tong, then wouldn't it really be a ROOT, or at least a parallel evolution to Hong and Pao Quan?

You are mixing together two different styles with the same name.

Han Tong's Tongbi Quan is from Song era, same was Taizu Chang Quan. Da and Xiao Hong Quan and Pao Quan didn't exist yet. DA HONG QUAN (Wild Swan Boxing) pre-existed most other long fists styles in the Yellow River basin (Henan and elswhere) and LAO HONG QUAN (Ancient Flowing Boxing) was a mixture of Shaolin Rou Quan and Zhao Kuan Yin's Hong Quan that he learned in Shanxi, which was basically this Da Hong Quan (Wild Swan Boxing).

The Tongbi Quan that later became Tongbei Quan is from late Ming era and was derived from the Shaolin Hong Quan system, which at that time was composed of Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets (that are seen today), Taizu Chang Quan sets, and Pao Chui sets, and Tongbei Quan influenced the formation Chen TJQ and other Henan martial arts.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh!! Opps, my bad!!

[Xian]

Twist Hands and Tong Bi Quan Yi Lu by Shi De Yong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yd-LrMDJKU&feature=channel_video_title

Does anynone know the set ? Reminds me a little of the first road of Xiao Tong Bi Quan.


Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

That's exactly what it is. Nanyuan Renshou Tongbiquan Yilu.

As I would translate it:

Southern Courtyard Stitching-hands Full-Arm Boxing, road one.

[LFJ]

By the way, on this topic, we have established that the Datongbiquan set was pulled together based on Han Tong's Tongbiquan.

And that Liu Zhenhai's three Xiaotongbiquan sets are Taizu system.

But what have we determined about this Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan, or other Nanyuan Datongbiquan? They seem quite a bit different, what with the obvious monkey traits and all in Renshou Xiaotongbiquan.

Also Song Dynasty, related to Yuanhouquan, predating Kanjiaquan too?

[Xian]

That's exactly what it is. Nanyuan Renshou Tongbiquan Yilu.

As I would translate it:

Southern Courtyard Stitching-hands Full-Arm Boxing, road one.

Hm in the video it is labled as second road. Thats why I was asking.
So Nanyuan had different kinds of Tong Bi sets also like the other gates ?


Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Hm in the video it is labled as second road. Thats why I was asking.
So Nanyuan had different kinds of Tong Bi sets also like the other gates ?


Kind regards,
Xian

The English on the video is wrong. The Chinese characters there say Yilu (一路), first road, which I can confirm it is. I have learned all three sets.

The performer, Shi Deyong is a disciple of Shi Suxi who passed this set also to Shi Deyang. They both do this set the same way, more or less.

This is one of the Nanyuan styles of Tongbiquan. There is Xiao and Da, each with three roads.

[RenDaHai]

LFJ is correct. I also have this video.

DeYong is from what we loosly call 'ZhenXu' Pai. It is disciples of ZhenXu. They also practice XinYiChuiBa and XinYiChangQuan. Nanyuan Pai stuff generally (Southern Abbey).

This DVD is actually one of the best of that series. (the series in general is appalling) but DeYong does actually go out of his way to show a few applications at the end.

LFJ I have new info on LZH XiaoTongBei forms.

The first road I also practice with my master. It is our first form and is called Shaolin 13 Chui. The first and second LZH XTB roads are combined into 1 long form called DaLiuHeQuan, which can also be seen in the series above. The third LZH set is contained entirely in my version of MeiHua Detang Quan.

So the three forms presented as LZH XTB 1,2,3 are sets of technique which are contained completely in 13 Chui, LiuHeQuan and MeiHuaQuan. The technique is identical, I think it just goes under different names in different schools.

[Xian]

Many thanks to you both!!!
:)

[LFJ]

LFJ is correct. I also have this video.

DeYong is from what we loosly call 'ZhenXu' Pai. It is disciples of ZhenXu. They also practice XinYiChuiBa and XinYiChangQuan. Nanyuan Pai stuff generally (Southern Abbey).

This DVD is actually one of the best of that series. (the series in general is appalling) but DeYong does actually go out of his way to show a few applications at the end.

Does it show Shi Deyong's 2nd and 3rd road of Xiaotongbiquan? How does it compare to Shi Deyang's videos?


LFJ I have new info on LZH XiaoTongBei forms.

The first road I also practice with my master. It is our first form and is called Shaolin 13 Chui. The first and second LZH XTB roads are combined into 1 long form called DaLiuHeQuan, which can also be seen in the series above. The third LZH set is contained entirely in my version of MeiHua Detang Quan.

So the three forms presented as LZH XTB 1,2,3 are sets of technique which are contained completely in 13 Chui, LiuHeQuan and MeiHuaQuan. The technique is identical, I think it just goes under different names in different schools.

Interesting... But bizarre that, if you remember, it was discovered that the lyrics to the 2nd road there matched the lyrics to the 2nd road of Taizu Changquan in the "lost forms" section of the Shaolin Encyclopedia. So what must this mean?

[RenDaHai]

Shi Deyong has a seperate DVD of section 2 but no section 3. Its not as good as his section 1 dvd, but he does show a few apps. He does also show apps on his XinYiChangQuan dvds, and his 'small four rounds' Dvd (luohan18shou).

A lot of people don't do section 3. Some versions have section 1 then half of section 2 then finish. It is a fairly repetative form.

There is another major version which is very different all the way through.

Deyangs section 3 always looks a bit strange to me.... I feel like there should be a few moves at the end.

Although I am familiar with his, the version I practice now is closer to Tagous in length (but not technique).



On TongBei, Actually that makes sense. If Taizu Chang Quan Er Lu was lost in form, but those few techniques saved, then it would make sense for them to integrate them into other forms. SO in LZH lineage they have the XiaoTongBei, in some they put it LiuHeQuan, others into Meihua quan... The body of technique survived, but the original form sequence may not have. Its good, it would mean the technique of Taizu ChangQuan is not lost, only the sequence.

[LFJ]

Shi Deyong has a seperate DVD of section 2 but no section 3. Its not as good as his section 1 dvd, but he does show a few apps. He does also show apps on his XinYiChangQuan dvds, and his 'small four rounds' Dvd (luohan18shou).

What I meant was how the sets compare to the way Shi Deyang does them in his videos. Just interested in how much they differ.

I've seen a couple other people do these sets, and I have the Shaolin Encyc. to compare to as well. Xinyichangquan, created by Zhenxu is in the Encyc. I've never actually seen it though.

These vids are so much easier and cheaper to find and buy in China.

[RenDaHai]

CHeck It out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

watch XiaoTongBei ErLu and compare with


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQEP54fBMuU

YaoSHouLiuHeQUan


SOlved!

[RenDaHai]

They are the same huh? Dunno how we missed it before...

There is a longer version of YaoSHou LiHe QUan that contains almost the full set of yilo XIaoTongBei

So they are covered by LiuHeQUan

The third section which in LZH is a bit short and strange is mostly contained within the end of some versions of MeiHua Detang Quan.


So they are all accounted for.

[LFJ]

They are the same huh? Dunno how we missed it before...

Ha.. Yeah! Whad'ya know.... lol

[Xian]

Okay, now it gets weirder: I recently discovered that the ER LU set shown here (middle set) is the same as the Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan ER LU set. Very strange!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

Correct me if I am wrong but I mean to remember that you allready did that.
Dont mind me.:o


Kind regards,
Xian

[Sal Canzonieri]

Correct me if I am wrong but I mean to remember that you allready did that.
Dont mind me.:o


Kind regards,
Xian

you're right, ha!

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, Xiao Tong Bei Quan section 2 is the same form as Yao Shou Liu He Quan
and both are the same form as Tai Zu Chang Quan Er Lu.

Yes?

Sometimes Liuhe Quan sets are lumped under Shaolin Luohan Quan, to make things more complicated.

But as far as I have been able to research, Liuhe Quan started in Shaolin around same time Meihua Zhang, Mizong Quan and Yuefei Duanda reached there too, which is like the 1500s.

[RenDaHai]

Yeah, the videos seem to show that XiaoTongBei and Da/YaoShou LiuHe Quan are the same form.

I think that XiaoTongBei is a new name classification however. I met LZH's son and he talked about this LiuHe Quan as 'LiuHeQuan' (although I didn't see his version I assumed it was this one as I have not seen another single man LiuHe). ALso I practice the first form of XTB, but it is called Shaolin Shi San Chui.... 13 strikes. HOwever my teacher said that 'nowadays it is called xiao tong bei'. And the third section has parts which are contained in MeiHuaQuan.

SO I think Maybe the XTB is a new classification name for it. There is something strange, ZhengShuJi's performance of DaLiuHeQuan contains XiaoTOngBei Yi Lu combined with the above LiuHeQuan to form a longer form. So there must be something that links XTB 1,2 and 3. And yet they have these other names. I am confused.

The ErLuTaizuQuan Link could be part of the explanation. If these sets were part of a fractured substyle of Taizu which no longer exists, the remanants may have been collected as XTB. Perhaps in the original substyle a form was called LiuHeQuan. It is not uncommon for a form to have two names like this for example in my sect Erlu Pao Quan is also JieShouQuan or JieSHouPaoQuan. Perhaps the form is 'LiuHe TongBei Quan' and was part of a substyle called TaizuQuan.... That would be conveniant. Just Conjecture. (for example, in 18 road Luohan quan every form has its own name, but can also be called '?'Lo Luohan quan).

[LFJ]

Just for fun...

This set is also called "Kanjiaquan" by that phoney-baloney guy who a couple years ago asked Sal and me to write a 1,000 word thesis on it! lol :rolleyes: Remember him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBagR6tKQ5k

[LFJ]

By the way, on this topic, we have established that the Datongbiquan set was pulled together based on Han Tong's Tongbiquan.

And that Liu Zhenhai's three Xiaotongbiquan sets are Taizu system.

But what have we determined about this Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan, or other Nanyuan Datongbiquan? They seem quite a bit different, what with the obvious monkey traits and all in Renshou Xiaotongbiquan.

Also Song Dynasty, related to Yuanhouquan, predating Kanjiaquan too?

Renshou Xiaotongbiquan obviously uses the renshou from Yuanhouquan, and has a lot of xiexing, wozhen, and san tuizhang seen in familiar styles such as Rouquan, Paochui/Hongquan.

Do we have anything more concrete on these Nanyuan sets right now?

[RenDaHai]

Just for fun...

This set is also called "Kanjiaquan" by that phoney-baloney guy who a couple years ago asked Sal and me to write a 1,000 word thesis on it! lol :rolleyes: Remember him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBagR6tKQ5k

Oh my god, the same set again!

So now its called Xiao TOngBei, Da/Yaoshou LiuHe, KanJia, TaizuChangQuan

Hmmmm..... Its a good set, Since my master refers to it as YaoShouLiuHeQuan I will say this is the name I trust most.

Kanjia Quan just means to protect the home so it is applied to a lot of forms.

[RenDaHai]

Renshou Xiaotongbiquan obviously uses the renshou from Yuanhouquan, and has a lot of xiexing, wozhen, and san tuizhang seen in familiar styles such as Rouquan, Paochui/Hongquan.

Do we have anything more concrete on these Nanyuan sets right now?

RenShou XiaoTongBei is another mystery to me, its one I need to investigate further. I like the strategy of it, White snake to create oppertunity, Spear hand to enter, XieXing as the main attack, HuBaoTou as main defense and WoZhen if things get sticky.

ALthough they are all familiar techniques they are done a little differently in RSTBQ. Most of the techniques are done empty (XieXing, HuBaoTou, RenShou, ChangShou, TuiZhang) Which is unusual for Shaolin. Also Notice it doesn't stick to the standard shaolin structure of employing Shuang Yun Ding-Qixing-DanBian. This is high on my list to investigate.... The ZhenXu Pai is typically associated with this set, perhaps they have the answers.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shi Deyong has a seperate DVD of section 2 but no section 3. Its not as good as his section 1 dvd, but he does show a few apps. He does also show apps on his XinYiChangQuan dvds, and his 'small four rounds' Dvd (luohan18shou).

A lot of people don't do section 3. Some versions have section 1 then half of section 2 then finish. It is a fairly repetative form.

There is another major version which is very different all the way through.

Deyangs section 3 always looks a bit strange to me.... I feel like there should be a few moves at the end.

Although I am familiar with his, the version I practice now is closer to Tagous in length (but not technique).



On TongBei, Actually that makes sense. If Taizu Chang Quan Er Lu was lost in form, but those few techniques saved, then it would make sense for them to integrate them into other forms. SO in LZH lineage they have the XiaoTongBei, in some they put it LiuHeQuan, others into Meihua quan... The body of technique survived, but the original form sequence may not have. Its good, it would mean the technique of Taizu ChangQuan is not lost, only the sequence.

Which is an interesting take, because before Abbot Fuju and the creation of all the forms from the 18 masters in the beginning song dynasty, styles were formless anyway. They were just techniques on a platform of positioning and entry skills combined with basics and conditiooning.

[Royal Dragon]

Maybe we should be looking at the rest of the Shaolin Liu He system. There is more than this one form according to the intro of this video. I wonder what else matches up to mysteries we have?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGMfZK1E_tQ

[Xian]

Which is an interesting take, because before Abbot Fuju and the creation of all the forms from the 18 masters in the beginning song dynasty, styles were formless anyway. They were just techniques on a platform of positioning and entry skills combined with basics and conditiooning.

What do you mean by formless ? No forms just techniques ?


Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Oh my god, the same set again!

So now its called Xiao TOngBei, Da/Yaoshou LiuHe, KanJia, TaizuChangQuan

Hmmmm..... Its a good set, Since my master refers to it as YaoShouLiuHeQuan I will say this is the name I trust most.

Kanjia Quan just means to protect the home so it is applied to a lot of forms.

Well no, that guy was a big phoney... disregard.

Yaoshou Liuhequan is probably it, because "yaoshou" sounds descriptive of the set with those yaoshou techniques.


Maybe we should be looking at the rest of the Shaolin Liu He system. There is more than this one form according to the intro of this video. I wonder what else matches up to mysteries we have?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGMfZK1E_tQ

The two-person sets of Liuhequan aren't all related though. Four are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. That particular one is from Xu Naluo in the Yuan Dynasty. There is another one by Shi Zhanju in the Qing Dynasty which is way different, it uses a lot of sections from Changhuxinyimenquan.

I've also seen several others that again are stylistically very different, but still called Liuhequan.

A lot of times it's because they are made of six "rounds". A round of a fight is called hui he. That's what the he is in liuhe in that case. In such two-person sets, they come together to engage and split apart six different times. Hence, Liuhequan = Six Round Boxing.

[Royal Dragon]

What do you mean by formless ? No forms just techniques ?


Kind regards,
Xian

It's my understanding that Zhao Kuang Yin instituted the wide spread practice of forms to be used as exams when he was Emperor. Prior to that forms were not very common. Styles didn't have them. all they had was loose technique.

[Royal Dragon]

Well no, that guy was a big phoney... disregard.

Yaoshou Liuhequan is probably it, because "yaoshou" sounds descriptive of the set with those yaoshou techniques.



The two-person sets of Liuhequan aren't all related though. Four are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. That particular one is from Xu Naluo in the Yuan Dynasty. There is another one by Shi Zhanju in the Qing Dynasty which is way different, it uses a lot of sections from Changhuxinyimenquan.

I've also seen several others that again are stylistically very different, but still called Liuhequan.

A lot of times it's because they are made of six "rounds". A round of a fight is called hui he. That's what the he is in liuhe in that case. In such two-person sets, they come together to engage and split apart six different times. Hence, Liuhequan = Six Round Boxing.

Actually, I was siting that the youtube video mentioned a bunch of Liu he sets, not the fact that it was about two man drills.

[LFJ]

Actually, I was siting that the youtube video mentioned a bunch of Liu he sets, not the fact that it was about two man drills.

Yeah, those mentioned are the two-person sets. Each has its own name. The one shown there is Yaoshou Liuhequan. The others mentioned, such as Erba Liuhequan and Tantui Liuhequan, are also two-person sets.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia just has them as Yilu, Erlu, etc., despite having different origins.

[LFJ]

@RDH

You notice in this Yaoshou Liuhequan duilian set it uses the spear hand to open xiexing, just like Renshou Xiaotongbiquan.... and the opening kick sequence is in Dahongquan sanlu.

[RenDaHai]

@RDH

You notice in this Yaoshou Liuhequan duilian set it uses the spear hand to open xiexing, just like Renshou Xiaotongbiquan.... and the opening kick sequence is in Dahongquan sanlu.

Good Observation, My version of this form is similar but different.... Doesn't do that. Perhaps that is the ZhenXu/NanYuan version.... It even uses XuXieCeng with the open palm as well. Deyangs Master SuXi was Nanyuan pai, so I guess it makes sense, I would imagine RenSHouTongBei would have been one of his central sets of technique.

I need to get an 'in' with the ZhenXu Pai..... Anyone have any friends? They are one sect I am not so experienced with. But I really like RenShouTongBei. Anyone know where this ShiDeYong teaches? I thought it was Beijing, but I don't remember clearly.

[LFJ]

Deyangs Master SuXi was Nanyuan pai, so I guess it makes sense, I would imagine RenSHouTongBei would have been one of his central sets of technique.

Yes, in fact a direct disciple of Zhenxu. "Zhan ji chun zhen su" as the poem goes.

I've talked to Deyang about Zhenxu before, and we also discussed the renshou hand shape from this.

But last time I was focussed on getting the bead set from him. My interest has be resparked for Renshou Xiaotongbiquan. I will have to see what I can hear from him on it next time.

[LFJ]

Centuries later the guard posts and shrine area of Shaolin practiced the Shaolin Kan Jia Quan style, and the Big Swan Fist books say that Shaolin Kan Jia came from Big Swan Fist (and the sets clearly show this), then more than likely Shaolin Kanjia developed out of Shaolin Tongbi Quan.

I was looking at some of the Kanjiaquan sets lately, and noticed that several of the sets feature an advancing single left-right tuizhang followed by a simultaneous crossing front-rear tuizhang, which resembles the xiexing posture.

This three move sequence is essentially the main technique of Renshou Xiaotongbiquan, except there it uses qiangshou instead of tuizhang, and the hands are horizontal rather than vertical in the xiexing posture. But it is essentially the same sequence of movements.

Just an observation. The main technique of Renshou Xiaotongbiquan features numerous times in several of the Kanjiaquan sets.

[RenDaHai]

The move is indeed XieXing.

It is one of the most ubiquitous Kung fu moves found within just about every style.

In Shaolins Xiyuan Pai it is often done differently in different forms, sometimes appearing with fists, palms, one fist one palm, rear hand up, rear hand down, rear hand horizontal, vertical fists, horizontal fists, hammers, one hook one palm (like in Taiji). These different versions represent the many different applications. In some shaolin sects however it always appears the same way. This gives less confusion and a more profound movement, but makes it harder to realise the full range of application.

Kanjia Quan does use the same combo, one-two-pow! The combo is more similar even than you mentioned, after the XieXing in kan jia quan it often returns to a xubu guard. RenShouTongBei always returns to a Xubu guard after xiexing. Kanjia Quan is pretty cool. I wonder if Dejun has all 13 sets.....

[Royal Dragon]

For those of us taught in English, where 80% of the techniques we know are named "Do This", what is XieXing?

[RenDaHai]

斜行

Slanted step. Also sometimes 斜型.

Called slanted/oblique/diagonal because the arms are across the stance as opposed to in line with it like Dan bian, although it is essentially the same technique. In SongShan it is often referred to as XieCeng (I cant find the character) which means like to pull something apart, in reference to the way the hands open as you lead with the elbows. This ends attacking on a diagonal.

http://denvershaolintaiji.com/images/xiao_hong_quan_00kx.jpg

(Thanks to DenverShaolinTaiji, its the first image of XieXing I came across)

[GeneChing]

I remember Shi Guolin was coaching me on this and he was really into accentuating the twist in this. One of his shenfa skills focused on spine flexibility, to maximize cross-character strikes (ie right hand, left foot strikes). When he practiced these techniques, he would have so much twist that his front fist and his rear fist would both be in line with his feet. I never had the flexibility to do that like he did. It wasn't really 'slanted' but who was I to argue? ;)

[LFJ]

When he practiced these techniques, he would have so much twist that his front fist and his rear fist would both be in line with his feet.

That's like how the xiexing is done in the Sanhuangbang set where it is called shizichui (crossed hammers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

[GeneChing]

LFJ, for some reason, that bass line really works for that performance for me. ;)

Guolin used to also cross his hand and foot when doing kick-punch combos where the right punch was coupled with the left foot and vice versa. That was odd for me because prior to that, I always tried to visualize my target, consequently aiming both punch and kick to the same center-line. But Guolin did that twist in basics to open up the flexibility more.

[Royal Dragon]

斜行

Slanted step. Also sometimes 斜型.

Called slanted/oblique/diagonal because the arms are across the stance as opposed to in line with it like Dan bian, although it is essentially the same technique. In SongShan it is often referred to as XieCeng (I cant find the character) which means like to pull something apart, in reference to the way the hands open as you lead with the elbows. This ends attacking on a diagonal.

http://denvershaolintaiji.com/images/xiao_hong_quan_00kx.jpg

(Thanks to DenverShaolinTaiji, its the first image of XieXing I came across)

Ahhh!! Gotchya!! I learned it as "Do that one like this"

[Royal Dragon]

That's like how the xiexing is done in the Sanhuangbang set where it is called shizichui (crossed hammers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

This is my favorite set at the moment!! I can't tell if it's the sequence itself, or because I learned it off of this video and I like it due to the funky music!!

I have take down applications for almost every inch of this set btw. It's the best version I have seen, and the only one that makes complete sense from start to finish.

[Howard]

That's like how the xiexing is done in the Sanhuangbang set where it is called shizichui (crossed hammers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

We have Shizi Chui in Bafan Shou but it is a double striking whilst Xie Xing is swing and strike from what I see, so not really same - how it ends up is different to how it moves.

[LFJ]

We have Shizi Chui in Bafan Shou but it is a double striking whilst Xie Xing is swing and strike from what I see, so not really same - how it ends up is different to how it moves.

The xiexing movement is not always done the same, as RDH was speaking on the variations earlier. In my school, the way it is almost always done is with double hammers (chui). Although the body twists and the stance turns the strikes are not swinging like hook punches with the knuckles. They lead with the elbows and 'tear apart' as RDH was explaining in the translation of xieceng, and end up delivering crossing hammer strikes (shizichui). It's much like a spinning top might shoot out a projectile which would not be sent swinging.

[LFJ]

Kanjia Quan is pretty cool. I wonder if Dejun has all 13 sets.....

He should have. The intro on his videos says in 1906, Shi Zhenfang took the Kanjiaquan manual to Shandong province, and in 1936 passed it on to Shi Sufa (who was actually a disciple of Shi Zhenqiu). Shi Sufa then trained it for 50 years and passed it to his disciple Shi Dejun in 1986.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows the sets based on Shi Sufa's demonstration. So, Shi Dejun should have them all. He has videos on roads 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7. But some of those of course change direction and leave out or add moves. His #7 is really strange. It doesn't follow the Encyc. for #7 at all, or any other road. And the silly-looking duck walk he does in that one and another one doesn't seem to appear at all in the Encyc.. So not only are his sets badly marked, but they make you look like a fool if you copy them too!

[RenDaHai]

Cool. Yes I've heard of Sufa,

I have the Kanjia videos somewhere, I'll have to have a look. There is a guy who did VCDs of ShiSanZhua, (completely different to my ShSanZhua) but I think the only video available. In his other videos he has the Kanjia sets, only under a different name and only 10. They are very detailed though. Set 1 is almost identical. I wonder where his stuff comes from...

I met a woman head mistress of a school in DengFeng who knew the Kanjia quan, learned from her father... Her photo is in the encyclopedia. But she wasn't willing to teach, maybe If I'd spent more time there.

Thats the only place I've seen it in dengfeng.

[LFJ]

I have the Kanjia videos somewhere, I'll have to have a look. There is a guy who did VCDs of ShiSanZhua, (completely different to my ShSanZhua) but I think the only video available. In his other videos he has the Kanjia sets, only under a different name and only 10. They are very detailed though. Set 1 is almost identical. I wonder where his stuff comes from...

Interesting. Well, the system has moved around and morphed into different things, like the 10 sets of Northern Shaolin. So I wouldn't be surprised if there were other evolutions of it to be found elsewhere and under other names as well.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rJYx0jz12g


Kind regards,
Xian

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting. Well, the system has moved around and morphed into different things, like the 10 sets of Northern Shaolin. So I wouldn't be surprised if there were other evolutions of it to be found elsewhere and under other names as well.

Oh how those practitioners of Northern Shaolin scream and cry when people show there is an earlier origin to their sets. Like as if their sets fell out of the sky as a gift from heaven. tsk tsk. I would be all like "wow! really? lets check out the original version and see what can be learned from it."

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rJYx0jz12g


Kind regards,
Xian

Cool, thanks Xian.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLOOyGUqmxI&list=UUmR0ShS4iz7OW4XVdZr5abQ&index=1&feature=plcp

More or less(I think he left out a few moves ) a full demonstration of the Ren Shou Tong Bi Quan with all three roads in one sucession.



Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Interesting take on this one, however the wozhen "lying on the pillow" posture at 1:01 following the left leg xuanfengjiao is the end of the second section.

He then adds the usual ending with the kick into zuoshan. So the third section is not there at all.

[Xian]

Fuuuu... :-(

[RenDaHai]

Interesting.

There are two major types of this form. After xie xing you return to the xu bu guard, then 1 type does wo zhen towards the opponent, the other does it away. This one does it away. I always learned towards, but I have seen this type.

[Xian]

here are Shi Deyang's Tong Bi quan videos:

Da Tong Bi quan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7NUHUCb7Ys&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=38)

Xiao Tong Bi quan- road 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xihUzQxpO4&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=40)
Xiao Tong bi quan- road 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5t2ezpEbOs&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=41)

Nanyuan Da Tong Bi quan- road 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xrNwvxakTU&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=42)
Nanyuan Da Tong Bi quan- road 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9SMF2UOOrQ&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=43)
Nanyuan Da Tong Bi quan- road 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgWP80ng0GY&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=44)

all the above Tong Bi forms (with the missing Xiao Tong Bi road 2) are all performed one after the other in this demonstration video:

Demonstration of Shaolin Kung fu and Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77dpS9bxnYk) (for Tong Bi forms go to 15:40)

Here is a single video on Xiao Tong Bi Erlu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rJYx0jz12g



Best regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

here is a video of a form called Wu Hua Tui (5 Blossom Legs). it's surprisingly the same as Da Tong Bi quan (of course with some minor technical differences, like any other form as performed by monks of different lineages):

Shaolin Wu Hua Tui (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLyen4X4RkA&list=PL8F75C68BF1246C2B&index=39)

why [B]this form is the same as Da Tong Bi quan but with a different name?



Probably because there are a lot of DVDs of TongBei Quan already that they wanted to change the name for theirs. This is just DaTongBei. No need to read into it.

DaTongBei is one of the Few traditional forms that everybody knows. Shaolin has so many forms but many people have just learned XHQ, DTB, QXQ... and done so badly in most cases.

Interestingly the final leg technique combination of DaTongBei is called 'Wu Hua Qi Zhu'. Maybe they get the name from that.

WuHeQuan is an entire sub system. It has many forms. The one LZH does is just one, and it is quite a simple one technically. I don't think it is related.

I suppose know I am in a position to revise earlier statements on TOngBei:


TOngBei is one of Shaolins oldest sub-systems. It is split between the XiYuan and the NanYuan who practice quite different ones.

In XiYuan Xiao and Da TOng bei are related. Xiaotongbei 2 is also called LiuHeQuan and XiaoTOngbei 3 is XiaoMeiHuaQuan. Xiaotongbei 1 is called Shisanchui. The DaTongbei has several sets. I am not sure how many are still being played but I believe road 2 may be within my grasp and I may pursue it further.

Renshou TOngBei is NAnyuan XTB and unrelated and I believe it may have other names.

[SHemmati]

Interestingly the final leg technique combination of DaTongBei is called 'Wu Hua Qi Zhu'. Maybe they get the name from that.

yea, thanks, this makes sense!



Renshou TOngBei is NAnyuan XTB and unrelated and I believe it may have other names.
but Deyang's Xiao Tong Bi videos are the same as RenShou Tong Bi, and so they are from Nanyuan Tong Bi quan. my question is that what is Shaolin standard/usual/popular Tong Bi quan? i.e., is Shaolin standard Xiao Tong Bi the same as Deyang's forms, which come from Nanyuan, or it is Deyang's lineage which have adopted their Xiao Tong Bi from Nanyuan?

[RenDaHai]

yea, thanks, this makes sense!


Deyang's Xiao Tong Bi videos are the same as RenShou Tong Bi, and so they are from Nanyuan Tong Bi quan. my question is that what is Shaolin standard/usual/popular Tong Bi quan? i.e., is Shaolin standard Xiao Tong Bi the same as Deyang's forms, which come from Nanyuan, or it is Deyang's lineage which have adopted their Xiao Tong Bi from Nanyuan?


Now thats a tough Question.

The whole Difference between Nanyuan and Xiyuan has broken down since the 80's revival. As did the difference between village sects.

Common forms:

DaTongBei ----- XiYuanPai
RenShou ------ Nanyuan
XiaoPaoQuan-----NAnyuan
QiXingQuan ------ Village style ?Tagou Village? maybe (originally XiYuan)
Changhuxinyimen ----- Village style Tagou/Mogou
TaizuChangquan----- Luotuoyuan village
XiaoHongQUan --- many different versions

So what is real Shaolin temple??

THere is no answer. NOwadays I tend to refer to stuff as SongShanShou. Song Mountain Hand.


Nowadays although I practice many individual sects I keep them seperate becasue sometimes they confuse each other. Teh same techniques are performed slightly differently in different sects and this leads to a lot of confusion. And few people know enough Shaolin to understand.

My main sect is XiYuan Pai which is SHaolin temple until 1928 then diffused. SO I practice XiYuan XiaoTongBei and XiYuan TiSHou Pao (the rarer nowadays). Nanyuan forms still existed but with less practicioners than XiYuan, but a lot still exists in village styles.

Xiyuan XiaoTOngbei is very close to DaTongbei technique so it is more useful to practice them both together rather than renshou tongbei which is different although complimentary to nanyuaan tishoupao quan (xiao pao quan).

[SHemmati]

wowwww! didn't know those!!!!

weird, because nowadays, SongShan Shaolin usual/popular/(is it eligible to use the word standard?) Xiao Tong Bi quan (same as Deyang's Xiao Tong Bi videos and Tagou's and...) is Nanyuan Renshou (Xiao) Tong Bi quan (at least to road 2).

but why Deyang when talking about his Xiao Tong Bi quan says it's Shaolin Xiao Tong Bi quan and talks about Nanyuan Tong Bi as a quite different set? other than this RenShou Tong Bi quan, which seems to have been adopted as SongShan Shaolin Xiao Tong Bi quan, does Nanyuan have any other Xiao Tong Bi quan? because if not, then Songshan Shaolin usual Xiao Tong Bi is the same as Nanyuan Xiao (RenShou) Tong Bi, and then they are different only in their Da Tong Bis.

[SHemmati]

Common forms:

DaTongBei ----- XiYuanPai
RenShou ------ Nanyuan
XiaoPaoQuan-----Nanyuan
QiXingQuan ------ Village style ?Tagou Village? maybe (originally XiYuan)
Changhuxinyimen ----- Village style Tagou/Mogou
TaizuChangquan----- Luotuoyuan village
XiaoHongQUan --- many different versions

after reading this chart, now it's comprehensible why the 3 roads of Xiao (aka Da) Pao Quan and the 3 roads of Xiao Tong Bi Quan have so similar aspects: they are both NanYuan Pai.

of the similarity of XiYuan Xiao Tong Bi to the Da Tong Bi, it's inferable that it's of a more aggressive nature than Nanyuan Xiao Tong Bi. btw, the similarity of NanYuan Xiao Tong Bi to the 3 roads of Xiao (aka Da) Pao quan may make it a better complementary to Xiao&Da hong, Xiao&Da Pao quan sequence of styles.

[RenDaHai]

after reading this chart, now it's comprehensible why the 3 roads of Xiao (aka Da) Pao Quan and the 3 roads of Xiao Tong Bi Quan have so similar aspects: they are both NanYuan Pai.

of the similarity of XiYuan Xiao Tong Bi to the Da Tong Bi, it's inferable that it's of a more aggressive nature than Nanyuan Xiao Tong Bi. btw, the similarity of NanYuan Xiao Tong Bi to the 3 roads of Xiao (aka Da) Pao quan may make it a better complementary to Xiao&Da hong, Xiao&Da Pao quan sequence of styles.

Yes. The current XiaoHong Quan is the same in both XiYuan and Nanyuan but I have learned erlier versions of both and I think the current XiaoHongQuan is from the Nanyuan version predominantly. (Mogou is XiYuan Pai incidentally).

XHQ and NYXTB and NYXPQ are very compatible.

But the overlap is a lot which means it is not so useful to focus on all 3. XHQ is better learned with XHQ 2,3,4. Just as the others are best learned together.

There are a whole bunch of forms in the nanyuan that go very well with nanyuan renshou Tongbei and many which start with the renshou white snake spits venom move.

[LFJ]

3 Roads in 1: Shaolin Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyiOpnEMxMI)

Identical version to books by Shi Yanzhuang, and by Wang Xigan & Liu Zhenhai, where it is called "Yilu Tongbiquan", further description under the video.

[LFJ]

Compared to Shi Deyang's version, the 3rd section in the above video is completely different. I don't know what to say about it. It certainly has some odd parts at the end (just standing and punching in different directions).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OMejSdJlI

Earlier in this thread Sal said the 3rd part in the Shaolin Encyclopedia is completely different from Shi Deyang's 3rd. Following the drawings only, yes it does look quite different (the drawings are messed up), but if you can read the movement descriptions (a bit of a pain for me because it's traditional Chinese) it is pretty much as Shi Deyang does it.

The only thing different is the sweep, which appears to be a standing ankle hook sweep that spins 360 degrees. Everything else is there, in the same order. So, Shi Deyang's videos match the Encyc. pretty closely, save for a few direction/side changes. All the movements are there and in the same order. In fact, if you just read through the movement names in the Encyc., Shi Deyang's videos match perfectly, from Road 1 to 3.

[LFJ]

Xiao Tong Bi quan ends in languid monk lies on pillow posture, as one element of the different levels of deception in Tong Bi quan, to make the maneuvers more puzzling.

Does that really make sense? Are you trying to puzzle yourself? :confused:

Whether you end your set in wozhen or zuoshan won't make a difference to an opponent in actual combat. ;)

Nanyuan Tongbiquan has two forms, Xiao & Da. Both have sequences of main technique that are repeated several times on both sides, but are not meant to be applied as fixed sequences. The sets suddenly change the the final bit of the repetitions by either inserting another technique, which breaks the rhythm, or by changing the final posture. This has little to do with "deception", but is to ensure that you aren't caught in "fixed sequences" as you train your sets at speed.

You should be able to extract individual concepts, create natural combinations of movement and apply them in instinctive responses to the circumstances of a fight, because you can't think for your opponent on how they will react and plan the course of a fight. That's all it's about.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about this video from Liu Zhenhai?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

Shaolin Tongbi Quan from Liu Zhenhai vcds - sections 1, 2, & 3. Referred to as Xiao Tongbi Quan in his vcds, but it is not the same as the usual set that is called Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan (also called the Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set) everywhere else.

Right now what these three sets are and their relationship to what is commonly known as Shaolin Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan is a mystery to me.

I recently discovered that the ER LU set shown here (middle set) is the same as the Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan ER LU set. Very strange! Exactly same posture names as shown in the section of the Shaolin Encyclopedia's "lost sets".

So, if the middle one is Tai Zu Chang Quan Er Lu, what are sections 1 and 3 doing on either side of it?

[LFJ]

We've been discussing those as well.

Basically, the Yilu Tongbiquan (which I posted a complete video of above) is another version of Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan 1-3 roads, as done by Shi Deyang. Only Shi Deyang's 3 roads match the Shaolin Encyclopedia perfectly, but the yilu Tongbiquan above has a completely different 3rd section that is kind of baffling in parts. Doesn't really make sense to me and I'm not sure of it's origin.

The Liu Zhenhai's 3 sets of Xiaotongbiquan are Xiyuan. RDH pointed out:

Road 1: 13 Chui
Road 2: Liuhequan
Road 3: Meihua Ditang

Together, with the common Datongbiquan everyone does, they form Shaolin's Xiyuan Tongbiquan. They contain the same technique and fit smoothly together. There is said to be 6 sets, and RDH's DTBQ has at least another road to it.

He may be able to fill us in better, but what we're looking at is the Tongbiquan subsystem from Shaolin's Xiyuan. The sets are often called by other names, and may be fragments of an old Taizu system pulled together?

Shaolin's Nanyuan Tongbiquan also consists of 6 sets, 3 Xiao & 3 Da. We've also noted the same technique in a different arrangement between the two courtyards. So it is a pretty large subsystem split among the two.

[RenDaHai]

I think there may be an ancient connection with Taizu in the name Tong Bei.

Basically the sets have their own names, but they are all subsets of the TOngbei system.

So 13 Chui is Yi Lu XTB
Da Liu He Quan (Your er lu taizu) is Er lu XTB
and Xiao Mei Hua Di Tang Quan is san lu XTB

This is in the naming of the Xi Yuan. Often 13 Chui and Er Lu are combined into a single set called Da Liu He quan.

But the paralells are not just between these sets, they also contain the same technique as the standard Da tong bei, So i think they are all 1 large set.

i learned them all from the same teacher, though I still do not have the later roads of DaTongBei, I know there is at least 1 more and have seen a bit of it. All these sets start and end the same way in my sect and can be linked easily.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think there may be an ancient connection with Taizu in the name Tong Bei.

Basically the sets have their own names, but they are all subsets of the TOngbei system.

So 13 Chui is Yi Lu XTB
Da Liu He Quan (Your er lu taizu) is Er lu XTB
and Xiao Mei Hua Di Tang Quan is san lu XTB

This is in the naming of the Xi Yuan. Often 13 Chui and Er Lu are combined into a single set called Da Liu He quan.

But the paralells are not just between these sets, they also contain the same technique as the standard Da tong bei, So i think they are all 1 large set.

i learned them all from the same teacher, though I still do not have the later roads of DaTongBei, I know there is at least 1 more and have seen a bit of it. All these sets start and end the same way in my sect and can be linked easily.

the more we dig deeper into all this, the more totally amazing it all seems!
Wow, that the Er Lu of SHAOLIN Taizu Chang Quan is in actuality ALSO the Da Liuhe Quan!
The 13 Chui I have heard said was an ancient set.

The old original Tong BI (not Tong BEI) that is related to Taizu Chang Quan is HANTONG Tongbi Quan, from General Hantong, a contemporary of Zhuao Kuongyin, who he had to kill to take over the empire. But troops learned his Tongbi Quan.

Tongbei Quan is yet again another Shaolin style, that is more related to Hong Quan and Pao Quan (Pao Quan was originally not a seperate system, the Pao Quan sets were just routines within the larger Hong Quan system in Shaolin).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, everyone interested in researching this material MUST GET a copy of Liu Zhenhai's book:

珍藏本 少林傳統套路精選
ISBN 9787539417530

http://www.cp1897.com.hk/product_info.php?BookId=7539417530&cl=english

It has the Xiao Tongbi, Da Tongbi, Lao Hong Quan (Zhou Kuangyin's Hong Quan mixed with Shaolin Rou Quan) four roads, a Luohan 18 hand set I have never seen performed ever (which he mentioned Li Sou as being involved!), the really good Da Luohan Quan set, Da Mei Hua Quan, and lots more. Most importantly, it has a Wu Xing Lian Huan Quan set the is remarkablely like Xingyi Quan's set of the same name (what came first?).

It would be great to have your input (all of you: LFJ, Ren, SHemmati, etc) on these sets, it might solve some of the mystery?

it is available used at a ton of Chinese used books sites:

https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&rlz=&q=isbn++7-5394-1753-0&oq=&gs_l=#hl=en&sugexp=les%3Bcappsweb&gs_rn=6&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=isbn%20%207539417530&tok=z5GPIRl5ySNtQaclUUodQA&pq=isbn%20%207539417530&cp=12&gs_id=2kk&xhr=t&q=%E7%8F%8D%E8%97%8F%E6%9C%AC+%E5%B0%91%E6%9E%97%E 5%82%B3%E7%B5%B1%E5%A5%97%E8%B7%AF%E7%B2%BE%E9%81% B8&es_nrs=true&pf=p&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%E7%8F%8D%E8%97%8F%E6%9C%AC+%E5%B0%91%E6%9E%97% E5%82%B3%E7%B5%B1%E5%A5%97%E8%B7%AF%E7%B2%BE%E9%81 %B8&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg&fp=37c60f132d4584f8&biw=1280&bih=605&bs=1

[LFJ]

it is available used at a ton of Chinese used books sites:

Or you could just download it (http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/23777892.html).

I sent this book to RDH the other day. The Luohan Shiba Shou set in there is what RDH was talking about in the Luohan thread that is in his sect. He has learned it and said its a spectacularly bizarre set done slowly with full stops and lots of neat application ideas. He can tell you more.

The Yilu Tongbiquan is the same as Shi Yanzhuang's book. It is the Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan, but the third section differs from Shi Deyang's, which matches the Shaolin Encyc. almost perfectly all the way through all three sections.

I'm not sure where the third section to this one came from, but the end is strange with just standing there and punching, hopping to the other side and punching again. Unless there's some hidden ideas in there, it just seems silly to me. Anyway, watch a full performance that matches these books done here: NY RS XTBQ (www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyiOpnEMxMI)

[RenDaHai]

The old original Tong BI (not Tong BEI) that is related to Taizu Chang Quan is HANTONG Tongbi Quan, from General Hantong, a contemporary of Zhuao Kuongyin, who he had to kill to take over the empire. But troops learned his Tongbi Quan.

Tongbei Quan is yet again another Shaolin style, that is more related to Hong Quan and Pao Quan (Pao Quan was originally not a seperate system, the Pao Quan sets were just routines within the larger Hong Quan system in Shaolin).

Yes! HanTong Pai, thats the name. Been trying to remember that for a while. My master said some of our forms lineage was HanTong pai, but I thought that was hong quan....I suppose it must be the tongbi.

Also, YEs! Pao quan IS just a subset of Hong Quan. We have a set 'jie shou' pao quan which is just a subset of Hong Quan, it contains the same technques and could easily be the fifth set of XHQ except for the name. In fact it is sometimes referred to as DaHongQuan. Our TiSHou pao quan is different, that is when it comes inot its own as a style, that and PoSiMenQuan.


Can you tell us more about HanTOng Pai? That name is well used in DengFeng but I never really got what it meant.

[RenDaHai]

It would be great to have your input (all of you: LFJ, Ren, SHemmati, etc) on these sets, it might solve some of the mystery?


Its Funny you say that, LFJ sent me that book just the other day!

It is the only place I have seen my Luohan 18 shou, almost identical! Its a great set, very mysterious but feels amazing to do, and for once it actually has 18 named techniques (there are more stances as some techniques span severl moves). I had never seen this set anywhere before my teacher taught me, and it is pretty much the last form we learn of the main syllabus.

The book is cool, it is great to see the rest of Laohong quan, though I still don't recognise it. Lots of Wo Zhen posture and variations. Makes me think it is NanYaun pai by looking but I am not certain.

The Da Luohan set is one I was taught before in Shaolin, this is the longest version, and is pretty much just LZH vcd Luohan 1+ 2 put together.

Xiao TOng bei is the same as the new yellow shaolin books yi lu Tong bei.

There is an interesting YanQingQuan set which I have never seen, though I do know my sect has a YanQing form and I suspect it will be the same since this book also has the same 18 shou and yuan hou quan.

The Za Quan looked interesting but I have never seen it.

WuXing Lian huan I knew existed in Shaolin, though I had not seen it like this before, looks like a good rumen set.

It is interesting to see DaMeihuaQuan in LZH book since in his vcds he calls that set luohan quan road 7.

Awesome book though.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It is possible that these Meihua, Tongbei, Pao Quan, Hong Quan, and so on sets all used to form the roads (Lu) of the original 18 Roads of Shaolin Luohan and 18 Roads of Taizu Quan and they all got lost and mixed as they left and came back to Shaolin over time.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yes! HanTong Pai, thats the name. Been trying to remember that for a while. My master said some of our forms lineage was HanTong pai, but I thought that was hong quan....I suppose it must be the tongbi.

Also, YEs! Pao quan IS just a subset of Hong Quan. We have a set 'jie shou' pao quan which is just a subset of Hong Quan, it contains the same technques and could easily be the fifth set of XHQ except for the name. In fact it is sometimes referred to as DaHongQuan. Our TiSHou pao quan is different, that is when it comes inot its own as a style, that and PoSiMenQuan.


Can you tell us more about HanTOng Pai? That name is well used in DengFeng but I never really got what it meant.

General Han Tong was a co general with Zhou Kuangyin in the Later Zhou Dynasty. The Later Zhou Dynasty was the last of the Five Dynasties that had controlled northern China after the fall of the Tang Dynasty in 907. Zhao Kuangyin, later known as Emperor Taizu (r. 960–976), usurped the throne from the Zhou with the support of military commanders in 960, initiating the Song Dynasty. Zhou troops learned Hantong's Tongbi Quan. Tongbi mostly at that time just meant Long Fist generally. Tunnel Arm, through the arm, it was a method of empty hand combat that was used if one dropped his weapon. It is using staff, spear, sword and broadsword (knife, Dao) postural movements with empty hands.
So, it was common for soldiers to learn this and it passed into the folk arts in the areas where the Zhou troops were stationed or passed through.

[SHemmati]

Whether you end your set in wozhen or zuoshan won't make a difference to an opponent in actual combat...
You should be able to extract individual concepts,
...you can't think for your opponent on how they will react and plan the course of a fight.
valid points. however, being out of logic is something that should be trained via the forms. that's one level of it. however, as another reason, that ending of xiao tong bi of Deyang's form is directly based on the ending of the da tong bi. Shaolin standard xiao tong bi (3 roads from nanyuan) has a larger frame, but it is based on the standard da tong bi (1 road from xiyuan); if one sees through, they have the same streamline almost. the endings are also just 2 different versions of the same ending, both are slanted body in bow-arrow stance, left arm straight, right arm bent beside the head.

[SHemmati]

OK. so Liu Zhenhai's 3 Xiao Tong Bi quan VCDs are XiYuan (west courtyard) Tong Bi quan, together with the Shaolin standard Da Tong Bi quan, which together with 2 other forms forms XiYuan Da Tong Bi quan, like NanYuan (south courtyard) Tong Bi quan, with 3 xiao and 3 da roads.

_______________
OK, after finding this out, let's have a review back to the
XIAO (小: small) & DA (大: big) naming of the forms:

In the standard Shaolin Quan, styles usually consist of a small form coupled with a bigger form. The smaller form consists of 1 road and the bigger one usually of 3 roads. This has some randomness:

The first reason that comes to mind here is that the form with the smaller number of postures can be named Xiao, the one with the bigger number of postures Da. True, but not always.

First of all, notice that Shaolin forms come from different 4 courtyards (院: yuan), 18 families (家: jia), 36 gates (门: men), 72 sects (派: pai), and even from other areas, etc. So a form can be coupled with different forms in each of these classifications. For example, Shaolin standard 3-road (bigger) Pao quan, as we learned from Ren and others, comes from NanYuan. Then, in the standard Shaolin syllabus, it's coupled with a 1-road (smaller) Pao quan, which obviously comes from a different style. These two forms form the standard SongShan Shaolin Pao quan. On the other hand, each of these forms in its mother area is coupled with a different form, so can be called Xiao or Da relative to it. Here, many lineages may keep the original area's name, like many people call it Xiao Pao Quan, but some others may choose the name according to the standard Shaolin coupling, like Deyang's lineage call it Da Pao quan, since it is the bigger 3-road form in the standard Shaolin temple kung fu syllabus.

In the case of Tong Bi quan, Shaolin standard 1-road Tong Bi quan comes from XiYuan, where it's originally one road of 3, and the standard 3-road Tong Bi comes from NanYuan. Incidentally, the 3-road one is Xiao in NanYuan, where it's coupled with another 3-road Da form with a bigger number of postures, and the 1-road form is one of the 3 roads of XiYuan Da Tong Bi, where it's coupled with another 3-road Xiao form. In this incidental case, without any conflict, one can keep the mother place Xiao and Da names for these 3- and 1-road forms, though this time the Xiao one becomes the bigger (3-road) one, the case that I don't like! In this case, the Da Tong Bi (smaller form) is from an older era while the Xiao Tong Bi (bigger one) is from a newer era, which can be the reason why they're called small (younger/newer) and big (older).

Altogether, it comes down to 2 reasons, 'SIZE or AGE': 2 forms can be called small&big because of their 'sizes OR ages' relative to each other; the smaller form can be called small and the bigger one big, or the younger form can be called small (though even bigger in size) and the older (though smaller in size) can be called big. This way, a form can be called Xiao in one lineage, while it's called Da in another lineage, depends on the choice.

[LFJ]

Apparently, this Da/Xiao naming system comes from the arbitrary naming by people in the Dengfeng area. In old Quanpu, with the exception of Hongquan, there is no Da/Xiao distinction. There is just Paoquan, Tongbiquan, Luohanquan, etc.. You might have particular ways to describe each set, such as Tishou Paoquan, Chashou Luohanquan, etc. (which I prefer because it is exact), but no such Da/Xiao distinction. Hence today you have people calling different sets by the same name, or same sets by different names. It is arbitrary and without historical basis.

[Sal Canzonieri]

it is dizzying, ha ha, but I think you summed it up right SHemmati.

There are so many "Shaolins"

[Royal Dragon]

Is there an English Download link?


Or you could just download it (http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/f/23777892.html).

I sent this book to RDH the other day. The Luohan Shiba Shou set in there is what RDH was talking about in the Luohan thread that is in his sect. He has learned it and said its a spectacularly bizarre set done slowly with full stops and lots of neat application ideas. He can tell you more.

The Yilu Tongbiquan is the same as Shi Yanzhuang's book. It is the Nanyuan Renshou Xiaotongbiquan, but the third section differs from Shi Deyang's, which matches the Shaolin Encyc. almost perfectly all the way through all three sections.

I'm not sure where the third section to this one came from, but the end is strange with just standing there and punching, hopping to the other side and punching again. Unless there's some hidden ideas in there, it just seems silly to me. Anyway, watch a full performance that matches these books done here: NY RS XTBQ (www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyiOpnEMxMI)

[LFJ]

Just open the page and click on the big green button. That should start a download. If not, on the new page that opens click the right button that says 下载 on the first PDF.

Anyway, this is the book where the Laohongquan and Yuanhouquan pages come from that you should have.

[Royal Dragon]

Just open the page and click on the big green button. That should start a download. If not, on the new page that opens click the right button that says 下载 on the first PDF.

Anyway, this is the book where the Laohongquan and Yuanhouquan pages come from that you should have.

Awesome!! Thanks!!
No English version?

There are some intentional errors in the sets in this. Sal was able to get the corrections and pass them on to me. I have since worked the Lao Hongquan set out. I have to say, there is some real depth here. I am thinking this may be the definitive example of Zhao Kuang Yin's heart. Especially since it was supposedly made from the techniques he chose to exchange to Shaolin for their teachings.

[LFJ]

Of this book? I highly doubt that! :)

[Royal Dragon]

Of this book? I highly doubt that! :)

Well, it never hurts to ask!

You know, since my Chinese sux and all. Lucky I can say "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" right. all else is calligraphy soup with me.:o

[Royal Dragon]

Hmm, I am having serious trouble downloading this!

First attempt I got 64.8kb Second I only got 24.6kb

Both are corrupt and will not open in adobe. Open office opens them, but they are all jibberish and random code. :(

[EDIT] 617.0kb..won't open in Adobe, same Jibberish in open office....

[LFJ]

I'll email it to you...

[Royal Dragon]

THANKS! Got it!!

[SHemmati]

there have been some discussions related to Tong Bi quan in some other threads. some important conclusions i became aware of are (LFJ posted in Luohan Quan thread):



Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

[Sal Canzonieri]

there have been some discussions related to Tong Bi quan in some other threads. some important conclusions i became aware of are (LFJ posted in Luohan Quan thread):

Yep, and I think that this reconstruction of Shaolin had to have happened after the massacre of the monks by warlord Li Jiyu there in 1641. Why else would they have needed to do so?

Which also, since Nanyuan Tongbi Quan is a forerunner to Shaolin Kanjia Quan, the reason that there was required a further update to create Kanjia was because now the enemy was the Manchurians (instead of the Mongols/Jurchen of the pre-Ming times) and THEIR martial arts were different and Shaolin had to adapt to it.
And also, but then the anti-Qing rebels were staying at Shaolin, it was for them that the Kanjia Quan were created.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Tong BI Quan means through the arms, which was a "bian", a whip, like action that is now seen in what is called Piqua. It comes from a military technique from sword fighting. It strikes down and then diagonally out.

Tong BEI Quan is through the back, it merges Nei gong / Qi gong energy that sprials through the body so that striking energy is moved from the ground, coiled like a spring in the legs and then transformed in the waist/hips up the spine and out the arms and hands.

I have seen Hollyfield punch like that, and obviously it is very effective, ha ha.

[Royal Dragon]

Tong BI Quan means through the arms, which was a "bian", a whip, like action that is now seen in what is called Piqua. It comes from a military technique from sword fighting. It strikes down and then diagonally out.

I don't really see this in any of the old Tonbi sets though. I see that there is an internal connection through the shoulders so the arms are in effect "Connected"

What you are talking about, I see more in the newer Tong Bei stuff mostly.

The old Tongi, to me, is just Hong Quan(Flooding Fist), with a different name.

[SHemmati]

Tong Bi, Through-the-Arms, is obvious in Tong Bi quan, arms mostly come out through each other.

Tong Bei, Through-the-Back, i've seen some Tong Bei styles their fighters lean backward, or turn to a side, and then their arms come out backward. somehow like drunken kung fu fighters, who lean backward and attack backward with their extended arms. i don't know any "Tong Bei" style, but have read it at few places that those styles are called "Tong Bei" because of that backward fighting strategy.

[LFJ]

Which also, since Nanyuan Tongbi Quan is a forerunner to Shaolin Kanjia Quan,

Yes! In the other roads of Luohan Shiba Shou, which appear all Nanyuan Xiaotongbi style, there is a lot of overlap of unique postures in the 13 Kanjiaquan sets, e.g. the opening and closing Xubu crane spreads wings posture in Kanjiaquan is there, the odd slap of the foot on the ground after the jump kick is also there too. And of course, Kanjiaquan has the spear hand- spear hand- xiexing- xubu guard sequence from Xiaotongbiquan. It's all clearly related material, not even mentioning the historical evidence that supports it.

[LFJ]

Regarding the name, I believe it's been mentioned before, at least in the Nanyuan version the meaning is "通通" (all; entire; complete). So Tongbi means "Full Arm", based on the yellow gibbons' long arm movements.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Regarding the name, I believe it's been mentioned before, at least in the Nanyuan version the meaning is "通通" (all; entire; complete). So Tongbi means "Full Arm", based on the yellow gibbons' long arm movements.

Yep, Gibbons swing with their arms as one long arm from one side through the shoulders to the other side.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I don't really see this in any of the old Tonbi sets though. I see that there is an internal connection through the shoulders so the arms are in effect "Connected"

What you are talking about, I see more in the newer Tong Bei stuff mostly.

The old Tongi, to me, is just Hong Quan(Flooding Fist), with a different name.

Yes, correct. The Xiyuan type of Tongbi Quan is the "old", which is from Hantong's Tongbi, which would be a variant of Hong Quan really. Yellow River area folk and miltiary boxing is all Hong Quan, which is now called Big Swan or Big Vast boxing, the Lubujia stuff, etc.

[Sal Canzonieri]

from my book, some interesting connection between Bai Yufeng and Tongbi Quan:


Bai Yufeng also reviewed other existing Shaolin techniques with Jue Yuan to develop their new system using of Wu Quan – five fists, eight trigrams, and animal mimicking movements. They had incorporated both the Wuxing (五行 - Five elements) movements and Bagua (八卦 - Eight gates / directions / trigrams) stepping patterns from a style called Hua 化 (Transforming) Quan, which came to Shaolin from another temple. Also, according to the tradition of a Shaolin linage (from Sun Yu Feng of Shanghai, a student of Shaolin Monk Yuan Tong), when Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yufeng’s religious name) took the position of librarian (Zangzhu 藏主) at Shaolin Monastery, there he found records on older methods like Hua Quan (Transforming Boxing) and revived them, reestablishing an older Shaolin system called Hua Quan at Shaolin.

Legends say that a Zhishan (志善) of Shaolin Monastery created the fighting style called Hua Quan at Shaolin Si. These fighting methods were seen as advancement in combat techniques. But, when Zhishan was killed in a fight, Hua Quan style stopped being practiced at Shaolin. Before the killing of Zhishan, his art were greatly respected at Shaolin, as it had contributed tremendous changes to the training of martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. Before Bai Yufeng’s time, Shaolin Hua Quan used the character 花, which means, ‘blossom’ or ‘flower’ or ‘elegant’. After Bai Yufeng revised these methods, the character was changed to 化 which means “to change into” or ‘transformed’. It can also mean ‘neutralizing’. Bai Yu Feng also made corrections or changes to a number of other sets at Shaolin as well.

Bai Yufeng’s incorporation of this Hua Quan led him to use the Wuxing (5 Elements) movements to create Wu Xing (5 Shapes) postures. Also, he incorporated the Bagua – Eight Direction or Gates stepping patterns. What he created was not just a martial art for self defense, but a complete system that merged this into the health cultivation methods (Neigong) that he already practiced when Jue Yuan met him in Luoyang. But, as it can be seen, these Wu Xing / Bagua concepts already existed at Shaolin before their arrival, and Bai Yufeng was able to find them because of his position as librarian at Shaolin.

Note: According to the book, Zhongzhou Wu Shu Zhi Chang Jia Quan Yu Yuan Xian Tong Bei Quan - 中州武術之萇家拳與猿仙通背拳, there is a style called Yuanxian Tongbei Quan (猿仙通背拳 - Ape Immortal through the Back Boxing) that is from the Yellow River area and is practiced on both sides of the river. The style can be traced to the Xu family in Jiaozuo, according to Dr. Yan’s research, the Xu family Tongbei comes directly from Dong Cheng’s teaching of his Tongbei Quan. Other researchers said that an earlier martial art from this village (before being influenced from Dong’s Tongbei Quan) was once practiced at Shaolin, being the source of Shaolin’s original Tongbi Quan, and that it was brought there during the Southern Song Dynasty era from Jingyin temple, where a monk Hen in the Song dynasty started the style, it was originally named “Jingang-Shi-Hua 化 Quan” - Diamond Warrior (Vajra) Skill Transforming (or Neutralizing) Boxing.

Note: There are sets of Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan, Da Tongbi Quan, and other Tongbi Quan set that were reorganized by the Qing era. They were created by merging Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, and Ape-Monkey Boxing (Yuan-Hou Quan). Shaolin Nanyuan (South Gate) Tongbi was also created by merging Da Hong Quan and Xiao Tongbi Quan. At that time, the various gates into Shaolin had guards that were taught different styles from each, in case one gate was defeated then the other gates would not be defeated the same way.

This material is very similar to the Shaolin Hua 化 Quan written about above, which also is said to have originated in Jingyin Temple first. Much of the movements of this Yuanxian Tongbei style share many similarities in both technique and shenfa with Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan and Shaolin Pao Chui, suggesting that they are all drawing from a common source.

Via his Shaolin Wu Quan training, perhaps the Wuxing and Bagua stepping patterns (13 movements total) of Hua Quan influenced Dong Cheng’s further development of his Tongbei Quan, making it more Taiji Quan like (until he finally learned the Taoist 13 Gong Rou Shou and completed softening his style)? Jingang is sometimes used as a term interchangeably with Luohan as well, so perhaps this Hua Quan style also influenced the development of Shaolin’s Luohan 13 Gong Rou Quan sets? Finally, General Qi Jiguang mentioned the style in his famous book, “in the boxing family’s dynasty of Song Taizu’s 32 Shi Chang Quan - 三十二势长拳, there is also the Liubu Quan - 六步拳, the Hou Quan - 猴拳 (monkey boxing), the Hua Quan - 化拳 . . .”.

[SHemmati]

Tong BI Quan means through the arms...

Tong BEI Quan is through the back, it merges Nei gong / Qi gong energy that sprials through the body so that striking energy is moved from the ground, coiled like a spring in the legs and then transformed in the waist/hips up the spine and out the arms and hands.

i'm not familiar with "Tong Bei" quan, however, i previously described that this name, as i've heard, refers to backward fighting method of this style. nonetheless, let me describe this Qigong through-the-back Qi transmission in more detail:
________
Qi is produced via successive contraction&relaxation of muscles. since Dan Tian (the lower abdominal balloon) area has the largest amplitude of movement for contraction&relaxation, and also it's contraction&relaxation can be coupled with the breathing exhale&inhale cycle, it is the best and biggest source of Qi in human body. after learning the Qigong way of Dan Tian (abdominal) breathing, the practitioner can go on with seated meditation Qigong method to produce Qi in Dan Tian. after some months, when the fire-like warmth and the jerks, which are the signs of presence of Qi, reach a very good level, Qi can be sent into the Small Circulation (from Dan Tian to perineum, up along spinal cord, to top of head, down through the tongue, which is in tough with the palate, and then down to Dan Tian, again and again), after some other months when small circulation became completed, Qi can move to the arms instead of going up to the head, it also can go down to the legs, this is called Grand Circulation. all the Qi we talked about so far is "Yang Qi," the hard Qi, which is used to harden the body, empower muscles, cause damages in opponents' body, etc. if the flow of Qi to the legs is reversed, i.e., instead of giving Qi to the earth we absorb qi from it, it is "Yin Qi," the soft Qi which can decrease or increase the practitioners weight (yeah, it's real, you can see the videos and documentaries in YouTube!), cause serious damages in opponents internal organs, etc. more advanced men breathe "Yang Qi" down to Dan Tian through the nose, absorb "Yin Qi" up to Dan Tian through the legs, and can project Yin or Yang Qi from each part of their body.
________

so, transmitting Qi through the back is a part of Qigong forcing method, and so is an integral part of every style that makes use of Qi, like Shaolin quan. so, i don't think it's something special about Tong Bei or Tong Bi quan.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know, the more I look at all this stuff, the more, and more, and more it's all looking to be the same thing to me.

It's all the same skills, body methods, techniques and fighting strategies just mixed and matched, and remixed and rematched over, and over, and over again by different people as time rolled on.

Once you master all the individual skills, and become fluent in them, is not the style your own at that point?

What we are doing here, is tracing the evolution of the many different forms, that contain a single art.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82mX8T0sLs

Regarding the last developments in the issues of Luohan Quan, Tong Bi Quan and Changhuxinyimen sect. How does the Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui fit in ?



Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Xiyuan Datongbiquan yilu done with 'Wu Gulun' style shenfa.

[SHemmati]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82mX8T0sLs

Regarding the last developments in the issues of Luohan Quan, Tong Bi Quan and Changhuxinyimen sect. How does the Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui fit in ?


Xiyuan Datongbiquan yilu done with 'Wu Gulun' style shenfa.

though i hate Wu Gulun style shenfa, but compared with other performances of this form, some points of this performance will open a new gate to Shaolin shenfa for me.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, reading some Chinese history books and the book "Chinese Martial Arts" by Peter A. Lorge ( I recommend this english book for a general overview of the martial arts dynasty by dynasty), looking for some clues yesterday, there is something very important to consider.

1. During the Ming dynasty AFTER the restoration that Jue Yuan and Baiyufeng did, by the 1500s, MOST of the Shaolin Quan was taught to the local farmers who tended the land for Shaolin, and the security guards who not only guarded Shaolin but also all the local towns that essentially worked for Shaolin. So, it is the countryside where all the Shaolin Quan wound up in

2. There was NO Shaolin Quan being performed at Shaoin for a long time after the massacre in 1641, NONE, various historical figures wrote about visting there, finding no martial monks there, just religious monks, to when it was rebuilt by 1735. After that date, they brought in recruits to be martial monks. By 1750 it was back to having martial arts, since they did a big demo of it for the then Qigng emperor. That's almost a hundred years that Shaolin had no Quan being practied there at all. And what they did get by 1735 was brought in from the local peoples.

And it is very revealing how they got their martial monks, who weren't religious monks at all, they recruited them from the army and body guard services!

So, let's figure out from that information, the origin of the Shaolin sets we know know to exist.
Luohan 27 (36)/54/108 had to come into being during the 1700s.
Same for the various Tongbi Quan gates.
Same for the Kanjia Quan (which may even be from 1800s!)

Meanwhile the countryside around Shaolin had material that Shaolin lost.

Also, don't forget that in some sections of Henan, they practice whole systems of Shaolin Quan that Shaolin still doesn't do today, like the 13 Claws.

[SHemmati]

great info, as always!
actually you did it by "Meanwhile the countryside around Shaolin had material that Shaolin lost." but to put an emphasis on it, it's said that after every destruction, though many documents have been lost, surviving monks and the area people have took as much documents as they've could to save them. add to this the huge number of lay monks and students at every era, who supposedly have known most the quan. so it's said that after every reconstruction, still there's been a huge amount of Shaolin quan knowledge that had returned back. so that there have always been many styles, knowledge, and documents from ancient times in Shaolin, even until today!

[RenDaHai]

Also, don't forget that in some sections of Henan, they practice whole systems of Shaolin Quan that Shaolin still doesn't do today, like the 13 Claws.

Actually 13 Claws is still alive and kicking.

CuiXiQi still practices this set, and I learned it.

It is not the same as the one outside SongShan, though it is similar. It is ALL claws, except for 1 kick and 1 type of elbow.

I really have to get around to filming all my sets.

[LFJ]

You know Sal, there were a ton of small monasteries sprinkled about in the Song Mountains where a lot of monks continued the practice. Many villages have small monasteries where Shaolin tradition was taken. You can't say because there was no training at the Shaolin Monastery itself at a given point that the material had to have been created at a later time when it was restored, or that there were no monks that trained Shaolinquan anywhere!

Shaolin Monastery brick & mortar ≠ Shaolin tradition or lineage. Research "from afar" often erroneously assumes this.

My lineage, for example, can be traced name by name through the centuries with quite a bit of information on many of the monks. Not so long ago, in 1903 Shi Zhenxu ordained at Longxing Monastery before coming to Shaolin, a tiny monastery in ruins today in his home village. It was built in the Song Dynasty and acted as a 'relay station' for monks crossing the Yellow River. This uninterrupted lineage crosses over different Songshan monasteries like this at different periods where Shaolin teachings always continued.

[LFJ]

I really have to get around to filming all my sets.

I've got my camera set up. Just waiting for you to get back over here. :p

[RenDaHai]

Hehe,

Yeah, would be good to get it all on film, there is a lot of rare stuff I think you guys would like.

On Temples Near SHaolin, there is actually a name for special ones which were used as a place for Shaolin monks to retreat to during times of trouble. I can't remember how to say it....Hui something guan I think.....

Anyway, there are a bunch of these near to Shaolin, and these are responsible for their own sub sects. If you travel to them you can find bits a pieces of Shaolin Kung Fu and sometimes a system.

There is about a 10km radius from Shaolin that contains so many different sects. Further than that things start to lose a bit of their 'SongShan' Flavour.

[LFJ]

Anyway, there are a bunch of these near to Shaolin, and these are responsible for their own sub sects. If you travel to them you can find bits a pieces of Shaolin Kung Fu and sometimes a system.

Yes, as far as I'm gathering, Shi Zhenxu had quite a different local tradition before coming to Shaolin and learning the then core content of the monastery martial arts under Shi Henglin.

[ShaolinDan]

Just want to thank you guys for all the work you're putting in on this thread and others like it. I'm not interested enough in the history to do my own research, but it's great being able to read yours. Good stuff!

[RITTERKING1]

Lets talk little about the Techniques of TongBei and TongBi quan.

In the non Shaolin Style, the Tongbei Quan every move is a fighting move.Even Arm swingins for or Back.You train how to hit someone in a Pigua art style.Thats great because every martial art has this Warm Ups.How amazing if you know that you can use every exercise and foot or Armswinging for martial art purposes. The basic Techniques after the Warm Up (martial art techniques) are the 5 element palms. It is the same theory like in Xing Yi.

1.Throw Palm-Metal
You rise your Hand and hit from above your Enemy at his Face with the Backpalm.

2.Cotton Palm-Wood
You hit straight to his Face with the center of Palm

3.Spike Palm-Water
You pierce your opponents face with your fingers with palm down or palm up like the Tansao movement of Wing Chun.

4.Deck Palm-Fire
You rise your hand for a block and after that you hit down with your palmedge like the japanese Shuto.You can block with a spike palm and then continue with this.Yo hit with an explosion down.

5.Drilling Palm-Earth
You grab his hand and pull your Enemy towards you.The same Time you hit him with a straight fist at his Belly or Chest.A technique like Taichis Repulse Monkey.Pull and hit.

All this are characteristic movements of monkeys.Not imitation but the same power use like the monkeys do with their Arms.

Now the Shaolin Tongbi
Many techniques are techniques that you can find in Xiao Hong and Taizu Chang Quan.But you use the same monkey power hands like in Tongbei above in different parts of the Tongbi forms.Go and watch Shimpanzees in the Zoo when they are angry.The hit with their Arms down like in Tong bi and Tongbei.