There is no such thing as structure

[Hendrik]

Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.


Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.


So, why is it structure becomes popular?

1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point's force vectors execution.

Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.


2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.


Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow.....ect will give you more power .... structure power.....

Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.



"comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.



What do you think?

[CFT]

Some good points Hendrik. But don't you want to be able apply all states depending on the situation? Flexflow seems a bit passive to me, maybe I don't understand how you would use it in most situations. How does it square with "taking the initiative"?

Agree with you 100% about structure. We are still flesh and bone. We can only support so much incoming force before something will give.

How does resistance, withdrawal and dissolving transition into each other?

[HumbleWCGuy]

In reference to the content as I understand it...
Simple answer... I think that the WCK structure is more flexible than people will admit. However, there is a structure because in WCK isn't an anything goes style.

When I talk about WCK principles, I talk about them as preferences for or tendencies towards particular behaviors/techniques. I believe that the notion of structure comes from the tendencies in technique and stance that reveal the principles. In that sense there there is a basic structure or way of executing techniques.

I see higher levels of WCK as being a person who understands the tendencies and breaks the rules judiciously. In that sense, I believe that there is no structure.


A practical example.
Early on, I learned that I had to adapt. When I first started sparring my kung fu brother and I would meet in the center of the floor and essentially get into a chi sao battle. We learned quickly that we needed to stop, "playing Wing Chun," if we intended to do any serious damage to each other.

Later, I learned that when I was faced with a rigid Wing Chun structure that I could show someone who hadn't made the leap away from rigidity that I wanted to, "play Wing Chun," only to switch and devastate them.

[-木叶-]

IMHO, your essay contains what is taught by "來留去送" (comes accept goes return) and "卸力" (dissolving incoming force), and also
Wing Chun's 忌 (taboo) of 斗力 (direct force competition)

This is clear especially in this extract from your essay:
"as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win."

IMHO, however structure is important, for example, understanding why
and how, when two person touch hands, and one is unable to exert
force on the other effectively is important. Grandmaster Chu Song Tin's lectures
on Siu Nim Tao structure is especially good in explaining this, in my humble view.

[TAYLOR1]

Hendrik,

I disagree. I think structure or Ying, is very important. In wing chun I think it helps define who and what we are. Dissolving energy as it comes in, comes from having structure. That doesn't mean we don't harmonize with the opponent and use flow.

[m1k3]

I agree with Hendrick about structure. Structure is a noun, it is static and unmoving. When done wrong one's structure collapses, this implies that it is brittle and subject to being overcome by force.

The problem as I see it is that wing chun is a verb, not a noun. It is a dance between two people with the intent to hit each other. Nothing static here. I'm not sure I like the word freeflow but for now it is a much better description of what you wish to accomplish than structure or rooting or setting anchors. :D

[kung fu fighter]

When fighting from a bridge, without structure the opponent can just run right through you. Tai chi talks about the "needle wrapped in cotton" internal structure or peng jin.


In wing chun there is static structure (feels like fighting a wall when on the receiving end), and dynamic flexible flow structure (no direct contact point can be felt on the receiving end).

[couch]

A building has to have structure (to hold itself up) and flex (so it can sway in the wind). But a building is the same as a branch - if it flexes too much, it breaks/cracks.

In fighting (all fighting), there has to be (body) structure to support the motions and deliver the force (like pushing a car/throwing a cross). This is moreso that the flex, but IMO, this 'flex' allows a change of direction, movement or perhaps an ability to adapt.

Wing Chun has structure for sure. The analogy of being like water is just as simple: water can't stand up on its own like a building.

[chusauli]

Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you've attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes...so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don't need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.

[Hendrik]

Scroll down, from what I have learn, that is exactly how I train my flexflow according to Yik Kam's SLT teaching from the redboat. That is the first post of SLT.

http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm


How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?

any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would like some clarification, and some practical examples of this "no structure" Hendrik. I am seeing too much flowery language, which I think is preventing everyone from being on the same page.

Tell me how your "no structure" plays out in a UFC fight.

[JPinAZ]

In WC training, one of the the first things we are taught is structure, or 'ying'. In a fight, we all have to start from somewhere - a reference point. Setting up the strongest structure in space at that moment gives us the strongest reference point to start from. Now, that does not mean that we hold onto that point for dear life either once things get rolling, but we all start from somewhere.

If my opponent can't deal with my first move, or my 'ying' (structure) then I am already on the winning side. If they can harmonize or overtake my ying, well then I move to another shape (flow).

So, to say there is no structure in WC is to say one doesn't know basics of WC system. I would agree with someone that says you don't get stuck in fixed shapes, or that you should understand the ability to change as needed. But, that doesn't mean one should give up the initial idea of ying! What if you find yourself being crashed or lost, how do you get back to a safe point to fight from? You find your ying again and reastablish your identity! Now you have safe point of reference to move from again.

An example could be a bird flying during a strong windstorm. If you have no structure, you will get blown all about and carried away with the wind. But to truly survive the storm, you will have to set up your pont of reference with the ground or tree limb, or be blown away. If you chose to endlessly flow, you'll be carried away for sure.

Robert said "In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.". I see what he is saying, but without structure, we have nothing to change to or from. We engage with structure, we neutralize with structure, we destroy with structure. while we also have things like flow, crash, destroy, etc we always start and end with Ying.

[JPinAZ]

Scroll down, from what I have learn, that is exactly how I train my flexflow according to Yik Kam's SLT teaching from the redboat. That is the first post of SLT.

http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm


How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?

any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where?

How does sleeping while standing up help you do anything regarding flow if you don't have an opponent?
The only place this practice can get you is on the floor when you nod off :)

[Lucas]

struc⋅ture  /ˈstrʌktʃər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [struhk-cher] Show IPA noun, verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.

–noun
1. mode of building, construction, or organization; arrangement of parts, elements, or constituents: a pyramidal structure.
2. something built or constructed, as a building, bridge, or dam.
3. a complex system considered from the point of view of the whole rather than of any single part: the structure of modern science.
4. anything composed of parts arranged together in some way; an organization.
5. the relationship or organization of the component parts of a work of art or literature: the structure of a poem.
6. Biology. mode of organization; construction and arrangement of tissues, parts, or organs.
7. Geology. a. the attitude of a bed or stratum or of beds or strata of sedimentary rocks, as indicated by the dip and strike.
b. the coarser composition of a rock, as contrasted with its texture.

8. Chemistry. the manner in which atoms in a molecule are joined to each other, esp. in organic chemistry where molecular arrangement is represented by a diagram or model.
9. Sociology. a. the system or complex of beliefs held by members of a social group.
b. the system of relations between the constituent groups of a society.
c. the relationship between or the interrelated arrangement of the social institutions of a society or culture, as of mores, marriage customs, or family.
d. the pattern of relationships, as of status or friendship, existing among the members of a group or society.

10. the pattern of organization of a language as a whole or of arrangements of linguistic units, as phonemes, morphemes or tagmemes, within larger units.

–verb 11. to give a structure, organization, or arrangement to; construct a systematic framework for.

[Hendrik]

I would like some clarification, and some practical examples of this "no structure" Hendrik. I am seeing too much flowery language, which I think is preventing everyone from being on the same page.

Tell me how your "no structure" plays out in a UFC fight.



Robert has described clearly what is no structure above.

[Hendrik]

How does sleeping while standing up help you do anything regarding flow if you don't have an opponent?
The only place this practice can get you is on the floor when you nod off :)


Isnt it strange that all the internal TCMA has to practice these year in and year out..... ?

[punchdrunk]

Scroll down, from what I have learn, that is exactly how I train my flexflow according to Yik Kam's SLT teaching from the redboat. That is the first post of SLT.

http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm


How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?

any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where?

sounds like your trying to sell something. What does the method contain? What is the purpose and what has been your results?

[Hendrik]

sounds like your trying to sell something. What does the method contain? What is the purpose and what has been your results?

I have nothing to sell.

[JPinAZ]

Isnt it strange that all the internal TCMA has to practice these year in and year out..... ?

No, it's strange that you think falling asleep while standing will in any way help you fight with WC.

You asked in relation to your video:
"How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?"

It doesn't. You can't flow without an opponent or training partner. You can't develop power by sleeping. If this is how you train, I'd love to see the results of you sparring someone with that.. :rolleyes:

"any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where"

Only a bump on the head when you hit the floor asleep.... seems like you've done that a few times.

[Hendrik]

No, it's strange that you think falling asleep while standing will in any way help you fight with WC.

You asked in relation to your video:
"How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?"

It doesn't. You can't flow without an opponent or training partner. You can't develop power by sleeping. If this is how you train, I'd love to see the results of you sparring someone with that.. :rolleyes:

"any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where"

Only a bump on the head when you hit the floor asleep.... seems like you've done that a few times.



What do you all think on above reply?

Any thoughts?

[anerlich]

Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you've attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes...so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don't need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.

So your four structure tests are just an illusion then, eh Robert? ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you've attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes...so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don't need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.


Robert,

What's the difference between how you apply structure by using alignment to relax/tighten certain muscles compare to what Hendrik refers to as "there is no structure but flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action Similar to water.

[chusauli]

So your four structure tests are just an illusion then, eh Robert? ;)

Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system...finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don't you don't. Even if you have it and don't do it at the right time, you don't have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately... :)

[chusauli]

Robert,

What's the difference between how you apply structure by using alignment to relax/tighten certain muscles compare to what Hendrik refers to as "there is no structure but flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action Similar to water.

Navin,

I just answered your question. Hendrik is talking about "letting go of self". if you missed what I wrote, "If you have it, you have it. If you don't you don't. Even if you have it and don't do it at the right time, you don't have it."

You only have it when you let go.

[stonecrusher69]

Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.


Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.


So, why is it structure becomes popular?

1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point's force vectors execution.

Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.


2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.


Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow.....ect will give you more power .... structure power.....

Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.



"comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.



What do you think?

Good post I think you answered your own questions about structure and what you call the flex flow. What I call empty or a flowing structure one that is motion like water. Structure as you said is a begiining not the end alll be all. even flex-flow is not the end. One must learn how to crawl before one can walk.

[chusauli]

With the risk of confusing the heck out of you guys:

All directions are within the mind. I am not asking you to look in any particular direction. Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling ‘I am’. The ‘I am’ is not a direction. It is the negation of all directions. Ultimately even the ‘I am’ will have to go for you need not keep asserting what is obvious. Bringing the mind to the feeling ‘I am’ merely helps turning the mind away from everything else.

Go deep into the sense of ‘I am’ and you will find. How do you find a thing you have mislaid or forgotten? You keep it in your mind until you recall it. The sense of being, of ‘I am’ is the first to emerge. Ask yourself whence it comes or just watch it quietly. When the mind stays in the ‘I am’, without moving, you enter a state, which cannot be verbalized, but which can be experienced. All you need to do is to try and try again. After all the sense of ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it- body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions and so on. All these self-identifications are misleading, because of these you take yourself to be what you are not.

- Nisargadatta Maharaj

That is why Hendrik appears to be sleeping.

[ChinaBoxer]

Hendrik is correct.

In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

Structure is just a useful tool, but when you've attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes...so it is not just how a system looks.

Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don't need that boat anymore.

Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.
nicely put, bro. i agree 100%!

[HumbleWCGuy]

Robert has described clearly what is no structure above.

I understand now. You have an interesting point. Hopefully, my understanding is adequate so that I can explore it with you. I typically refer to what you are talking about as "no mind" or void rather than structure. Myself, and others, tend to perceive structure as a standard way of going about things within a system. Although, I see your point about how at a high level that the standard structure can lose its character as well.

I am not a JKD man or anything but I respect Dan Inosanto as a true master of what he does. He once said something to the effect of, "At high levels it all just looks like kicking and punching." On some level, I see how as masters of different arts converge in mental states, they also converge in form, or lack there of as you say. Do you agree with this?

Also, in your training, I see an external representation of relaxation and what appears to be you being in the moment. What is your internal/mental state?

[Hendrik]

I understand now. You have an interesting point. Hopefully, my understanding is adequate so that I can explore it with you. I typically refer to what you are talking about as "no mind" or void rather than structure. Myself, and others, tend to perceive structure as a standard way of going about things within a system. Although, I see your point about how at a high level that the standard structure can lose its character as well.

I am not a JKD man or anything but I respect Dan Inosanto as a true master of what he does. He once said something to the effect of, "At high levels it all just looks like kicking and punching." On some level, I see how as masters of different arts converge in mental states, they also converge in form, or lack there of as you say. Do you agree with this?

Also, in your training, I see an external representation of relaxation and what appears to be you being in the moment. What is your internal/mental state?


To be real honest,
Once you need to hold on a certain structure you have set up your weakness for attack.

In general, why is so many WCner get take down easy? the structure doesnt work? Nope, the structure they train in work perfectly, the only thing they mis calculate is all existing structure got weakness. and unless one can adaptively change structure, keeping one structure is dead deal.


Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self no mind in daily layman term?

simple, it is just not stuck in one mind set. see every mind set is a self. and self got nothing wrong, it is that stuck in one mind set and thinking that is everything that screw us.

Same with physical same with mental, not stuck is flow. that simple, but then we mostly keep training on one type of mind set and or one type of physical way and thinking that mind set and physical way will become the rule of the universe, well, sorry, at the end we all will be dissapointed because not keeping one mind set is the truth. thinking one mind set or one physical way is the ultimate is actually walking into doom's day --- stuck or as is it said in Buddhism Dukka everything stuck and nothing move.



Zen is simple, just dont attached. no self is just dont purposely get stuck in emphasis on oneself. no mind is just knowing different variaty of thoughts surface but not get carry away be them blindly. practice that daily and you practice zen.

and if you mind dont get stuck your physical will not get stuck too.

[Hendrik]

flewflow is the dynamic structure. one first learn all the key structures then master all of them, then forget about structure, then one will become what it needs to be when one needs a structure.

no mind, mind is just a hinderance. No applied this tan sau that fook sau that body behind the elbow.....etc.


No thinking. by passed thinking.


until one get to that state one doesnt know dynamic structure but similar to a parrot trying to mimic human. getting stuck with this structure or that tan sau indicate a stuck in the mind that means stuck in the body execution.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self no mind in daily layman term?



No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being "hot," people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, "everyone looked open."

[Hendrik]

No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being "hot," people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, "everyone looked open."



For me, No self is a Zen term. and I present it as it is how I learn from Zen.

[anerlich]

All directions are within the mind.

I guess you don't have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert? :D

[Wayfaring]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


What can be achieved from Hendrik's clip???

***

Stand, Relax & Breath is a very useful tool for many aspects of development!


1) If you cannot just stand still, completely relax and breath effortlessly then how do you expect to do it while moving or stepping or even in combat? The quality of Sung must be achieved.

2) The 1st 3 layers of ones training can be tuned thru the simple concept of Stand, Relax and Breath. Physical conditioning, Mind conditioning and Breath conditioning. So, it is a Lab for your development.

3) The so-called "soft boxing arts" are supposed to be rooted in (yang sheng) or life nourishing exercise. This means, when you practice you should not deplete but re-vitalize. So, in stillness you activate every cell in the body, evenly and smoothly nourish all the organs and other great benefits.


The end results are wholesome soft force and segmented power. Not a structure that can be attached to, and controlled, but a constantly alive and adjusting type of state of attainment. Someone once asked??? How can you condition without doing anything? Similar to untangle a telephone cord! Hang it upside down and let it (body/spine) untangle gradually and smooth. Unlike some forms of Yoga and other Hard types of conditioning. What would happen to the tele cord if you just grabbed both ends and pulled? Would it untangle? Maybe a little but a totally different approach. This is the difference between natural and un-natural process.

So, when you think about just standing still and what kind of results are going to happen from this??? Well, there are many! It is an important and useful tool on many levels but it brings awareness to the three main keys! Posture, relaxation and breathing.


Back to lurk mode!!!


Peace,

[kung fu fighter]

Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system...finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don't you don't. Even if you have it and don't do it at the right time, you don't have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately... :)


So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

[m1k3]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

Good post. This is what I was trying to say, but better and clearer.

[chusauli]

I guess you don't have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert? :D

If you think about it, all directions are in the mind. If I drive home, I don't have to think this is North, this is West, then turn South, etc., if I know the route.

But if all else fails, there's GPS... :)

[chusauli]

So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

Yup. And even after a while, I can have Fuk energy in Biu Sao, or Tan Sao. And I put all energies in my Jik Chung Chuie. Then I have no "one set structure".

But if no one has this cultivation/work, they don't have the necessary skill.

[chusauli]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

Good post, but the term "base" can be confusing, too.

Would "Frame" be better? Or perhaps "Body alignment", "vector force alignment"?

It all becomes semantics and preference.

Sometimes we do a drill of standing in one place - a la Mui Fa Jong or Baat Sien Toi, or on top of 5 bricks and play - it is just a drill for base.

[Hendrik]

speaking about structure or dynamic structure .. how then is dissolving in coming force be done? what type of structure and or what type of dynamic structure?

and why is dissolving is not withdraw and not resisting.


Some says one root and the force comes going down to the ground. it that dissolving or is it withdrawing or it is resisting?

[duende]

Guys...

Ying (structure/shape) is Energy. One of the Five energies to be exact.

For one to think that structure is simply a static, fixed position physical expression is truly a beginning level understanding of the nature of Ying. On the contrary Ying is a dynamically changing expression... what we refer to in HFY as "Structural Energy" and represents the core foundation within which Tin Yan Dei body mechanics are developed.

Muscle, Bone, Tendon, power generation (ging) although related is a separate topic.

LAU energy or FLOW does not replace YING but instead adds to it and COMPLIMENTS IT.

Lau (Flow) without Ying (structure) is like driving a car with out breaks. As soon as you try to take a turn without someway of controlling and reducing your speed... your car will inevitably spins out of control, and off the road.

This translates into WCK as the practitioner losing their awareness of themselves and falling into distortion body mechanics such as being stretched out, over-extending, or collapsing and compromising one's spacial integrity.

This is specifically why in HFY we have defined system structural reference points and their energy expressions/ussages.

This allow's the HFY practitioner the ability to easily distinguish when they are using distortion/san sau body mechanics, and when they are using system body mechanics... and flow in between.



On a side note...

In regards to Hendrik's demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value. Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.


Anyways, I'm glad for him that he finally understands the importance of Jaam Jong and how it can benefit one's WCK. As not too long ago, he was vehemently opposed to it, and made many insulting posts here on KFO as to why it had no place in WCK.

I'm glad to see by his actions, that he takes all that back now.


Good training to all. :)

[Hendrik]

Guys...


In regards to Hendrik's demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value.

Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.




Could you please enlightent me what is

[B]
Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.[/B


mean?


Thanks in advance.

[Vajramusti]

There is no such thing as structure
Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.(Hendrik)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes and no. Depends on meaning and context. "No" sounds dogmatic and absolutist.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

[Yoshiyahu]

What exactly does it mean to have Structure? Does the structure change between variations? Can structure be altered to change effects of a desired technique?

[Hendrik]

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA



What is the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve?

[Hendrik]

Could you please enlightent me what is


Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.


mean?


Thanks in advance.



I am still waiting for your sharing.

[duende]

I am still waiting for your sharing.

Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I've little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though...

If you truly seek enlightenment... accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others... is key.

There's more than one star in the sky.

[Hendrik]

Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I've little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though...

If you truly seek enlightenment... accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others... is key.

There's more than one star in the sky.



Here I passed your discussion.

Thanks.

[Yoshiyahu]

Little impatient are we Hendrik?

Perhaps while you were waiting you could have shared with us all how you came to this complete 180 about Jaam Jong and WCK??

Anyways, I've little reason to help a person who asks questions out of one side of their mouth and makes insults out of the other.

I will tell you this though...

If you truly seek enlightenment... accepting differences of understanding, appreciating experiences of others... is key.

There's more than one star in the sky.

if you read hendrik message he was a waiting for an answer from himself ha ha

Quote:


Originally Posted by Hendrik
Could you please enlightent me what is


Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.


mean?


Thanks in advance.



I am still waiting for your sharing.

[Hendrik]

who really knows the music of flow?

[m1k3]

who really knows the music of flow?

I do.

It is the heavy beat of the war drums mixed with the sounds of bag pipes.

It is the sound of Thor's hammer cleaving the universe.

It is the pounding sound of your own heartbeat drumming in your ears.

It is the coppery taste of adrenaline in your mouth.

It is the world turning red as seen through your eyes.

It is the song of the berserker!


Of course that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[anerlich]

who really knows the music of flow?

Easy.

Seven Nation Army - White Stripes.

[Eric_H]

Easy.

Seven Nation Army - White Stripes.

Nice :)

I can see why Hendrik has so much structure troubles, heck his WC doesn't even have Chum Kiu or Biu Gee!

[Yoshiyahu]

who really knows the music of flow?

Well what is flow. To flow you need Sung. With out sung there is no flow. To flow is to be like endless river which pounds a rock to dust. One needs to Sung the Waist to have power. But what is Flow Hendrik...Is it not like water that continues its journey uninterrupted and never stopping. flow is motion that is unbroken continuity. It is like flowing water. Can you catch water in your hands. Can you hold it in your arms. It will continously make its way around to a opening and leak out. Can you hurt flowing water. If you strike it will it not dissolve your attack while still moving. Stand in a river. Can you stop its flow with your strength? Flow is unbroken and smooth and fluid. It is soft but devasting. In movement flow like a thunderous waving river. In stillness be like a mountain. Be like water. In stillness it can be heavy as a mountain but soft as cotton. When you hit it you can not break it or cut it. It returns back to its normal posistion. But when Water hits you it is strong like an avalance knocking you off your feet and sending you hurling feet away...But if you are double weighted you can not flow. You will be sluggish and slow. Your weight must be empty at one place and full in another. Just as water is both full and empty.

The Music of Flow is Like this:

"When the flow is swift it is difficult to resist. Coming to a high place, it swells and fills the place up;meeting a hollow it dives downward. The waves rise and fall, finding a hole they will surely surge in."



Without "sung" and activation of one's CTS. One is just wasting time intellectually discussing these things. It's impossible to understand the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve without first achieving the state of "sung":)

In order to understand sung or activate anything you must first know yourself and know others. You learn your self by practicing the form slowly you know others by doing chi sau.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

were you able to use dissolving flexflow no structure when Andreas Hoffman applied his body structure method against you? if not how is this skill useful in self defense?

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

were you able to use dissolving flexflow no structure when Andreas Hoffman applied his body structure method against you? if not how is this skill useful in self defense?

I hear crickets:D

[Hendrik]

I hear crickets:D



You beat your wife last night?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

You beat your wife last night?

Gotta love Mondays. :p

[chusauli]

Hawkins Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Leung Ting, William Cheung, Victor Kan, Ho Kam Ming, Tsui Sheung Tien and others "beat me up", threw me down, "broke" my arm, smashed my head and face, kicked me in the groin, and demonstrated how easily I would "die" during seminars when I was asked to be their demonstration partner.

Andreas Hoffman has also thrown me down, mounted me and shown me his attainment in BJJ and weng chun when I asked him to teach me his version of Chi Sao.

My student, Alan Orr, has also choked me and joint locked me and ground and pounded me when I wanted to learn more about ground fighting. Guro Mark Wiley disarmed me and clubbed me with his escrima during training and explaining estrella, cadena real, pluma and other Ilustrisimo methods. Master Lui Yon Sang at 82 disarmed me of my Luk Dim Boom Gwun and struck me 5 x in succession. Senior Chan Bong stabbed me numerous times at spear sparring. Master Michael Guen threw me 10 feet with his Tai Ji structure...

I am honored to be beaten and learn. A real student always learn something new and in martial arts, it is good to see what others have.

I was there at Andreas' take down demonstration. Hendrik offered no resistance. There was no challenge, just a demonstration. Who doesn't do this as a real student of martial arts?

[kung fu fighter]

You beat your wife last night?

Got ya So dissolve and flexflow no structure only work when you lube up to beat your meat with your wives the palm sisters, not against people with body structure method. :D

Hendriks wedding song to his wives, what a Bizarre Love Triangle :

I call you when I need you, my heart's on fire
You come to me, come to me wild and wild
When you come to me
Give me everything I need
Give me a lifetime of promises and a world of dreams
Speak a language of love like you know what it means
And it can't be wrong
Take my heart and make it strong baby

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

In your heart I see the star of every night and every day
In your eyes I get lost, I get washed away
Just as long as I'm here in your arms
I could be in no better place

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

Each time you leave me I start losing control
You're walking away with my heart and my soul
I can feel you even when I'm alone
Oh baby, don't let go

[Hendrik]

RC,

Excellent post!


The Chinese said

Lost and Win are usual for those in military.


If one is in martial art then one expect both lost and win for no one is God as even Mas Oyama got taken to the hospital while fighting a few guys in the same time.


peace

[Yoshiyahu]

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.


- Sun Tzu

[chusauli]

But if you have no enemy, perceive no enemy, and don't take too much stock in a "self", you are in peace.

[Yoshiyahu]

But if you have no enemy, perceive no enemy, and don't take too much stock in a "self", you are in peace.

Two Chinese principals are as followed.

You know your self by practicing Forms!

You know your enemy by practicing chi sau!

[duende]

But if you have no enemy, perceive no enemy, and don't take too much stock in a "self", you are in peace.

Until your friend comes up from behind and tries to choke the life out of you!

:D

[kung fu fighter]

Is that so? Then why, when you met a Weng Chun Master and he put you on your on your a$$, did you yell "that's not Wing Chun, that's not Wing Chun!!" ;)

Hendrik,
still alot of crickets:D

[chusauli]

Hendrik,
still alot of crickets:D

KFF,

I was there, you were not. It was a demonstration.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Also, I've read you are a fighter and have competed... have you never been struck or taken down? What is your point besides attacking Hendrik here?

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik,
still alot of crickets:D

Great Points...

Silence is golden isn't it!

[Yoshiyahu]

Hendrik,
still alot of crickets:D


Got ya So dissolve and flexflow no structure only work when you lube up to beat your meat with your wives the palm sisters, not against people with body structure method. :D

Hendriks wedding song to his wives, what a Bizarre Love Triangle :

I call you when I need you, my heart's on fire
You come to me, come to me wild and wild
When you come to me
Give me everything I need
Give me a lifetime of promises and a world of dreams
Speak a language of love like you know what it means
And it can't be wrong
Take my heart and make it strong baby

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

In your heart I see the star of every night and every day
In your eyes I get lost, I get washed away
Just as long as I'm here in your arms
I could be in no better place

You're simply the best, better than all the rest
Better than anyone, anyone I've ever met
I'm stuck on your heart, and hang on every word you say
Tear us apart, baby I would rather be dead

Each time you leave me I start losing control
You're walking away with my heart and my soul
I can feel you even when I'm alone
Oh baby, don't let go



This Post was comical and great creativity...wow