Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

[Sal Canzonieri]

Background (from my forthcoming book):

Shaolin Xinyi Quan was influenced from outside the monastery by the Tongbei Quan related Liuhe (Six Harmony) Quan martial arts that came out of the Qianzai Temple that had spread into the Luoyang area of Henan and northwest into Shanxi through the teachings of Ji Longfeng. This transmission was unlike the previous Shaolin Quan system that had been a major root influence on part of the development of Tongbei Quan. Instead, the Taoist side of Tongbei Quan was introduced back into Shaolin via the influence of Ji Longfeng.

First Ji Longfeng had visited Shaolin (most likely more than once) and exchanged much martial art information with the monks there at the time (early 1600s). The monks practiced their animal mimicking styles derived from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system (including Luohan Quan). Also they practiced Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Yuan-Hou (Ape-Monkey) Quan, Mi Quan, Duanda, Rou Quan, and other material, as documented by various books written during the 1500s-1700s time period. They were especially known for their staff, spear, and sword techniques by then, which had been greatly improved through outside military advisors.

One of the animal mimicking methods included a simple set of ancient techniques drawn from the movements of farmers and local domestic and wild animals. Yang Jwing-Ming, in his book Xingyiquan : Theory, Applications, Fighting Tactics and Spirit, argues that aspects of Xingyi Quan (particularly the animal styles) are identifiable as far back as the Liang Dynasty at the Shaolin Temple. Supposedly, Ji was impressed by Shaolin’s movements that were taken from the Rooster, Eagle, and other animals. On the other hand, the Shaolin monks were greatly awed by Ji’s Liuhe spear methods and worked to incorporate his Liuhe knowledge into their martial arts. According to the research of Dr. Yan Zhiyuan, who examined various ancient quanpu manuals, the ‘Spear Method of Teacher Ji,’ which is contained in an ancient Shaolin manual, is a combination of Ji’s spear techniques and text from the Tongbei Quanpu manual. From this first exchange, the Shaolin Xinyi (heart mind) Quan sets were developed.

Shaolin Xinyi Quan
Shaolin practiced various Xinyi Quan sets that resemble movements from the Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan style. Many of the movements are like the Five Element movements of Pi, Zhuan, Beng, Pao, and Heng. Also, points out Dr. Yan, the particular ‘Shaolin Xinyi Quan’ set practiced by the family of Shaolin lay disciple Jia Shuwang was in fact Tongbei Quan; it was probably developed from the boxing taught early on by Ji when he was teaching his spear methods to the Shaolin Monastery. As discussed earlier, this set was originally known as the Xie Xing Quan set (Slanted Walking Boxing) and it shared many postures and movements with those later seen in Chen Taiji Quan sets (such as Jingang Pound Mortar, Single Whip, and much more) and also it contains movements seen in only Xinyi Liuhe Quan (especially of the Rooster, Snake, Beng Quan, and others) as well. Thus, since Tongbei Quan was often called Xing Quan and since it was the foundational material from Qianzai Temple that Chen Wangting and his Li cousins used and that Ji Longfeng had learned as well, then it is very likely that the “Shaolin Xinyi Quan” shown in Jia Shuwang’s book was indeed a Shaolin set derived from the Tongbei Quan influenced boxing that was received from Ji Longfeng.

It is very different from the Xinyi Liuhe quan that Ji later created. It is also different from the ‘12 Moves of the Xinyi Liuhe (Shaolin Xinyi Ba)’ set that was later passed to the Shaolin abbot by ‘Henan Li’, which was taught only to high ranking monks. Obviously, it is very different because it was more like Chen Taiji Quan’s version of Tongbei Quan than it was like the Tongbei Quan influenced Xinyi Liuhe Quan that Ji Longfeng developed. This set is nearly extinct today in the Shaolin temple itself, being seen more in the Henan countryside instead.
Later, Ji Longfeng’s grand students had made a second exchange on their visits to Shaolin, and the Shaolin version of Xinyi Ba resulted. According to the book Pictorial Collection of China Martial Arts written by You Tang Hao, Ji later passed his knowledge to a hermit named Zheng (called Nan Shan Zheng Shi), and Zheng passed the information to a hermit, Li Shiming of Henan (called ‘Henan Fu’ Li), and Li finally passed it to a Luoyang Muslim named Ma Xueli (1714-1790) and to a non-Muslim Li Chen Chun. Li Shiming struck up a friendship with Shaolin's abbot around the years of the emperors' Yong Zheng (1723-1735) and Qian Long's (1735-1795) reigns. Li presented the abbot with a copy of the manual Ten Most Important Truths of Xinyi Liuhe, written by him in the 11th year of Emperor Yong Zheng's reign. This was Shaolin’s last Abbott until modern times, as he eventually resigned his post and left Henan.

Describing the Six Harmonies, Li wrote, “The heart harmonizes with the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe. Six basic forms, each form with the ability to evolve into 12 forms, the 12 forms are still able to be returned back to each parent form.” It was treasured by the Shaolin monks for generations. In addition, he also taught the ‘Secret 24 Character Formula.’ Within this ’24 Character Formula’ is the sentence, ‘Tongbi is famous for its dodging; Xinyi is good at evasion.’ Li's disciple, Ma Xueli, the founder of Luoyang Xinyi Quan, and grand disciple, Ma Sanyuan, visited the temple too. Today, the Ma family Xinyi Ba set and the Shaolin Xinyi Ba still appear to share many features, postures, and movements, showing that they arise from a common source.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This new material branched into two separate but related areas:
a - The Xin Yi Ba material further developed in Shaolin (a long story to get into)
b - the Xin Yi related sets that feature Ji Longfeng and his students (Li Shiming, etc., as mentioned above).

These Xin Yi related sets feature the Rooster, Tiger, and other animal imitating movements that Ji Longfeng used.
Today the best known of these routines are the shorter "Qi Xing Quan" - 7 Star Boxing and the "Chang Hu Xin Yi Men" - Long Protect Heart Mind Gate.

These two sets for some reason are just about always done the same way by practitioners, there is little variation seen.

The Tagou books feature both sets, with Qi Xing Quan being 45 movements and Chang Pu Xin Yi Men being 96 movements.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows for some reason doesn't show the Qi Xing Quan set.
It does show the Chang Pu Xin Yi Men set (page 488 in the 4 volume version)
What is does also show is some related sets: Xin Yi Ba, Xin Yi Quan, and Xin Yi Chang Quan (Heart Mind Long Fist).

(There is also a set shown called Xin Yi Mizong Quan, but I don't know why it is called Xin Yi Quan ER Lu in the book.)
Other booklets published by Shi DeQian do show the Chang Hu Xin Yi Men set though.

Shi Dejun has a book on Qi Xing Quan.

The book "Shaolin Wushu" from 1984 (no ISBN number in it) has the Xin Yi Quan set that was originally called Xie Xing Quan, which is now practiced mostly in Kaifeng rather than at Shaolin. This set is 80 postures, 152 movements.
It looks like a combination of movements from Qi Xing, Chang Hu Xin Yi Men, and Chen Taiji Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Videos (as shown on YouTube):

Qi Xing Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXxI_sJEszQ (most of the time Shi Yongzhi is doing this set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lG3RN1KGY0 (here is does it in the rain without slipping!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OhjZbbQvR4 (again, SYZ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWKVO_wlf2Y (yet again, SYZ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc (SYZ instructional)

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjtAJBlIUcU (Shi Yongzhi, short version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYErJ2GZP4 (Liu Baoshan, short version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ileVWASgtVE (longer version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ctxgoBDNQ


Other:

Shaolin Tiger Catching and Shaolin Xin Yi Ba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LTI0QR28Gk (by Yang Gui Wu, pretty much the set as in the Shaolin Encyclopedia)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5suagXNZsq0

Shi DeJian doing his famous Xinyi Ba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKsVJjfS

少林寺 心意虎拳 Shaolin Shi Xin Yi Hu Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uczQWHDKAfI

Henan Xin Yi LiuHe Quan (you can see the similarities to Shaolin, since both developed from Ji Longfeng and his student's teachings):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYS67ZoL9SU (this is Bear, Eagle, Snake, and Rooster/Chicken)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amUA-VuzuFs (10 Big Animal Shapes set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3uDG9 (Si Ba set)

[RenDaHai]

Oh
I know of one more related style,

Shaolin Yue Fei quan,

Almost extinct, only one set remaining, unless there are other sources my teacher is unaware of.

ANother very unadorned practical set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh
I know of one more related style,

Shaolin Yue Fei quan,

Almost extinct, only one set remaining, unless there are other sources my teacher is unaware of.

ANother very unadorned practical set.

Yes!!! I have been doing research on this set. I have a whole section devoted to it in my forthcoming book. It was once a very important set.
It is between Eagle Claw and Fanzi Quan in substance.
It is a Shaolin duan da set, which developed into the Fanzi Quan like Mian Quan, Cotton Fist.

Can you please see if you can find out any historical info on this set?
When is it from? How it got to Shaolin area? What is it related to? Anything at all you can find out, really.

All the old Shaolin manuals from the 1600s write about this set.

Also, the places that Shaolin monks went to around China during the early days of the Qing takeover also still teach it.
It can be found in Shandong for example, in the Laizhou area, where the Mei Hua Men school teaches it. It was brought there hundreds of years ago. See the Tongbi Quan thread I made, my last posting there has info about this. See in the post that I have this set listed.

It should be kinda like the famous 24 Roads of Yue Jia Ba Shi set that various style practice (Eagle Claw; Taiji Tongbei Quan; and so on).
I have posted videos of it on my YouTube channel.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There is one other book that shows a Xin Yi Ba set, other than the Shaolin Encyc.

It is an entirely different set than it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There's two books I need very much for my research.
Some Chinese used book sites have them for sale.

Can someone please get them for me and I can pay them back right away?
Or trade stuff for them?

If anyone can do that for me, please PM me and I will send you the links to the books.

I really need these two books very much, and have been searching for them for years!

[LFJ]

(There is also a set shown called Xin Yi Mizong Quan, but I don't know why it is called Xin Yi Quan ER Lu in the book.)

here are some sources that are years apart and unrelated that call the same thing by different names.

first, as xinyiquan;

1) i just posted a video from the first-ever shaolin monks tour in the u.s. (1992) with shi guolin demonstrating what is called shaolin xinyiquan (saying nothing about mizongquan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dJNVhbYSI

2) the set shown in the shaolin encyclopedia called xinyiquan erlu says nothing about it being "mizongquan" either.

second, as mizongquan;

1) what master guolin just demonstrated is the same set, although quite different, as done by master deyang here, called mizongquan yilu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvfRaGfJiBo

2) the encyclopedia set "xinyiquan erlu" is shown here by master deyang as "mizongquan erlu", and he says nothing about them being "xinyiquan":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snlDYY68ojk

third, as xinyi mizongquan;

in performance videos from master deyang, however, the mizongquan sets are titled "xinyi mizongquan". as shown in the red title characters at the beginning here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgPKjh1YA8

so, these are unrelated sources, each calling it either xinyiquan or mizongquan, and one calling it xinyi mizongquan.

master deyang has them as mizongquan yilu & erlu.

i'm assuming the matching xinyiquan yilu that is not listed in the encyclopedia is what is demonstrated by shi guolin.

so there we have xinyiquan yilu & erlu, also called mizongquan yilu & erlu, and only once titled as "xinyi mizongquan".

since all of these sources only refer to the sets by one name and dont mention the other, i'm curious of their relation (xinyi to mizong). especially since they are only called mizongquan by shi deyang.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is bizarre indeed.

Not only is there is mixup between what Shaolin calls Xinyi Quan and Mizong Quan (Yi and Er Lu), but there are a series of different Shaolin sets called Xinyi Quan besides these two sets.

First, in the four volume version of the Shaolin Encyclopedia, the Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown is NOTHING like the Mizong (xinyi) Yi Lu set. In fact, it looks pretty much like just a Chang Quan set, or better yet a Tongbi Quan set. It has much more in common with Tongbi Quan than the Xinyi (Mizong) Er Lu set shown in this book.

The Er Lu set that Shi Deyang does that is also shown in the Shaolin book, and the Yi Lu set that Shi Deyang does (that is not shown in the Shaolin book) have a lot in common with sets from the actual Mizong Quan style.

But keep in mind that Shaolin received Mizong from a person hiding out in Shaolin who arrived from Shandong. It was called Yan Qing Boxing by this person, and then Shaolin later called it Mi Quan, "Lost", "Confusing" or "Secret" Boxing. By the 1600s and documented in books published in the 1700s, Shaolin took this Yang Qing Quan and further developed it into Shaolin Mi Quan. In Shandong it continued to develop for 150 more years into Mizong Quan, as a separate branch from Yanqing Quan. During the 1700s, Sun Tong, the founder of Mizong took Yanqing Quan and mixed it with some Shaolin Wu Quan (such as Luohan and Five Animals) that he learned from some named Zhang. So, MIZONG QUAN is very closely related to Shaolin Quan, but YanQing Quan is from an earlier branch and does not share a lot of Shaolin movements and postures that Mizong Quan contains. But, regardless, early Yanqing Quan was a major influence on the development of Shaolin empty hand boxing during the 1600s, which Shaolin called Mi Quan. Thus, we have two different types of related martail arts in association with Shaolin, Mi Quan and Mizong Quan. Hence, there can be totally different sets with almost the same names.

I don't see how in any way is this material got anything to do with Shaolin Xin Yi Quan that comes out of the visits of Ji Longfeng and Li Shimin and their students to Shaolin.

First, lets look at the Shaolin Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
Some parts of my Shaolin research has shown me that this type of Shaolin Xin Yi quan since it was influenced by Ji Long Feng shares some major attributes with Xing Yi Quan, and I have heard that Shaolin Xin Yi Quan was also more correctly known as Xing Quan - Walking or Traveling Boxing, 行拳, and thus would also make it related to Wen Family Xing Quan (later became Ba Shan Fan and Fanzi Quan) and Eagle Claw Xing Quan, which are both closely associated with Dong Cheng's Tongbei Quan, which was also known as Xing Quan - Traveling Boxing.
AND, if you look at videos of all these Xing Quan, they are very much like this Shaolin Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA (鹰爪翻子行拳)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j0M7D6pJoA (鷹爪翻子拳 之 行拳 (喜帖街))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6U4oY6Bjbw (鷹爪翻子拳 之 行拳 (甜蜜蜜))
http://www.youtube.com/user/SifuWu#p/u/155/pCowYkuQVDI (some classic Tongbeiquan -通背拳 - 小连环)

So, let's say for now, that the Xin Yi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin book is correct.

--------------------------

Now, the Er Lu set shown in the Shaolin book and the Yi lu and Er lu sets performed by Shi Deyang are nothing like the Xinyi Quan Yi Lu set shown in the Shaolin Book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvfRaGfJiBo (Shaolin Mizong Quan Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snlDYY68ojk (Shaolin Mizong Quan Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgPKjh1YA8 (same sets called Xinyi Mizong Quan)

Instead, these sets are pretty close to the real Mizong Quan and Yang Qing Quan sets that can be found:

燕青拳 -Yan Qing Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-mrZNJ (Xiao Shi Quan - Small Form Fist)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O400Sw2KS1s (San Bu Jia - Three Step Frame)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxxCJXBtWSQ (another set by same person)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ROOSjmF1Uk (Mianzhangquan - 绵掌拳)

秘宗拳 - Mizong Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVHCpVSDljw （Small Five Animals Fist - 小五虎拳）

By the way, there are Shaolin Yan Qing Quan routines documented as well. I have seen one one set that Liu Zhenhai has shown in his Shaolin routines books.
Here's Shi Dejun doing a 少林燕青拳 set (it's at the end of this annoying video):
http://www.56.com/u80/v_NDY1MTE4NTM.html

[wuseng33]

i was watching this xing yi quan
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
and noticed it has a lot of similar or the same movements to some of a rou quan (er lu) set i previously learned which is also similar to a pao quan set which would also lead me to believe it originally came from a hong quan set? anyones opinions on this?

[Sal Canzonieri]

i was watching this xing yi quan
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDQyMDg3NTI=.html (形意十二行拳)
and noticed it has a lot of similar or the same movements to some of a rou quan (er lu) set i previously learned which is also similar to a pao quan set which would also lead me to believe it originally came from a hong quan set? anyones opinions on this?

Well, now that's very interesting. Very keen observation on your part.

Rou Quan ER Lu set? Is it this one (which I practice and teach)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SabJwXlBwEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJYVYgu_s

Rou Quan came first, then Hong Quan / Pao Quan.

Shaolin practiced Rou Quan a long time before anything else.

But, this particular set comes from a different area of Rou Quan, this set is very much like Taji Quan, which comes from Tongbei Quan, which comes from Shaolin Hong and Pao Quan.

If it's not that particular set, then which one?

[Skip J.]

But, this particular set comes from a different area of Rou Quan, this set is very much like Taji Quan, which comes from Tongbei Quan, which comes from Shaolin Hong and Pao Quan.
Looks a lot like taiji to me...

[wuseng33]

hey sal, sorry im in china and cant watch youtube here unfortunetly but the rou quan er lu I learnt is from the Shi su xi linange. to describe it, i would have to say it has a lot of similar and same movements to pao quan (the one that the old monk preforms on the golf course) however is a lot longer with more defensive movements and silk reeling.
I also recall hearing something interesting a long time ago which i dont know if is true? but was something along the lines of xin yi ba was developed from rou quan, hong quan and pao quan and if you study these 3 systems all the xin yi ba movements can be found? has anyone else heard this? which could mean in theory if you study rou, hong and pao quan forms you may well know some xin yi ba and not realize it depending on your understanding of the movements.

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey sal, sorry im in china and cant watch youtube here unfortunetly but the rou quan er lu I learnt is from the Shi su xi linange. to describe it, i would have to say it has a lot of similar and same movements to pao quan (the one that the old monk preforms on the golf course) however is a lot longer with more defensive movements and silk reeling.
I also recall hearing something interesting a long time ago which i dont know if is true? but was something along the lines of xin yi ba was developed from rou quan, hong quan and pao quan and if you study these 3 systems all the xin yi ba movements can be found? has anyone else heard this? which could mean in theory if you study rou, hong and pao quan forms you may well know some xin yi ba and not realize it depending on your understanding of the movements.

I really would like to see this Rou Quan set you are talking about. I will see if any Chinese websites have any videos of the Rou Quan Er Lu set I linked to YouTube.

Yes, Xin yi ba came out of Ji Longfeng's and Li Shimin's visits to Shaolin.
So, by that time period, Rou Quan, Hong Quan, and Pao Quan already had existed for a long time.
Monks were fearful that the Xinyi Ba would be lost over time, so they embedded postures within other Shaolin sets. Plus, I guess also as you point out, older sets would have the roots of Xinyi Ba within their postures.
This information is out there, Zhu Tien Xi has done many articles for "Real Kung Fu" magazine in Hong Kong on such topics over the last 4 years or so.

OKAY:

here's a chinese website that has a Shaolin Rou Quan Yi Lu set, companion to the Er Lu set:
http://www.56.com/u16/v_MjAzNDg3NzM.html

Please let me know if it is the same one as you are discussing, thanks

[wuseng33]

well, no thats not the set i know. it contains some similar movements which are common to all the rou quan sets i have seen however i was under the impression that this set was put together just for demonstrations as it seems to have a few influences in there and not as simple as the rou quan sets ive seen. also his the fa jing style he useses i have not seen in other rou quan sets i have only seen yan zhuang do it like this. yan zhuang is also know for his shaolin xin yi sets however sorry i dotn know whats been posted previously due to great fire wall. the thing i have found which is strange in the set i leaned are a lot of the movements are repeated on both sides eg. it starts with a xinyi style step (yanzhuang does at 0.33) then repeats on the opposite side and this is common to a quite a few movements in the form.

[LFJ]

sounds like you might be talking about the luohan 13 exercise rouquan set. is it this one?:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMTg0OTA2NDQ=.html

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys

On the encyclopedia mizong quan thing...

When I learned this set it was referred to as 'xin yi mizong quan'.

The Xin yi yi lu set in the encyclopedia I can verify is about right, that is what shaolin xinyi quan looks like (very old set), this is from memory but i remember quite clearly.

You will notice in the old encyclopedia the er lo set (mizong er lo) is drawn in a different style to the rest of the encyclopedia. I think it was added as an afterthought when perhaps they couldn't find the real one.


I agree with sal on the mizong quan yanqing quan stuff, however there is something else...

There are 3 reasons a set can be called mizong quan.

1. Because it is related to yanqing quan as above.

2. Because it later became a term to mean deceptive, so non related but deceptive sets were called mizong quan.

3. Mizong has another meaning. It means 'lost path' and is a name that was given to forms that had lost their lineage. I.e a form that no one can remember where it came from, or a form that was constructed from several different styles could also be called mizong quan.

It is possible this that the mizong quan sets are lost lineage sets so have the name mizong quan. They are very cool, but with very unusual movements.

@wuseng33

On Xinyiba, no its a little more complicated than that. Pao quan can be used well with xinyiba. XInyiba is not just a series of movements, there is some kind of formula....

[LFJ]

also interestingly, in the encyclopedia for the first xinyiquan set it gives the history, and says it was created during the northern wei dynasty by one of the first monks at the monastery, former general and disciple of batuo- sengchou.

it says originally it was only 6 postures, and through a direct line of descendants was expanded to 10 postures. then in the song/yuan dynasties it was further developed upon by monk jueyuan and bai yufeng into the 45 postures set.

of course, if all that is to be believed, then this shaolin xinyiquan (at least from the original 6 postures) must be one of the oldest sets recorded! it would predate the rest of the main shaolin material by at least 5-800 years.

[Sal Canzonieri]

also interestingly, in the encyclopedia for the first xinyiquan set it gives the history, and says it was created during the northern wei dynasty by one of the first monks at the monastery, former general and disciple of batuo- sengchou.

it says originally it was only 6 postures, and through a direct line of descendants was expanded to 10 postures. then in the song/yuan dynasties it was further developed upon by monk jueyuan and bai yufeng into the 45 postures set.

of course, if all that is to be believed, then this shaolin xinyiquan (at least from the original 6 postures) must be one of the oldest sets recorded! it would predate the rest of the main shaolin material by at least 5-800 years.

That is amazing, if true.

Can you read and post here the history material for the Chang Hu Xin Yi Men set in that book? It gives an extensive write up for that set.
Also, for the Xin Yi Chang Quan set shown as well?

thanks!
C

[LFJ]

for changhuxinyimenquan the encyclopedia says it was created in the song dynasty by monk huiwei (惠威) with 36 original postures which were extended by disciples to 66 postures. then in the yuan dynasty it was extended to 72 postures by jinnaluo (紧那罗), then to 82 postures by monk zi'an (子安).

in the ming dynasty it was altered by monks juexun (觉训), tongyang (通样) and others. they improved the skills, made the structure tighter and gave it a distinctive style.

it then names several qing dynasty monks who were well-known practitioners. especially monk jiran (寂然) who after 10 years of hard training with it made substantial alterations. he took out 28 repetitive postures (from the 82 posture set), and added 30 new postures, to total 84.

it then ends by saying monk jiqin (寂勤) during the years of the republic of china taught the set to liu fatai, liu jingwen, wu shanlin, wang dingyi, and others. it also names liu baoshan, wu chaofan, wang zongren and others as today's inheritors of this gongfu.

[LFJ]

for the xinyi changquan set the encyclopedia is very brief. just says monk zhenxu (贞绪) (suxi's master) combined the basic skills of changquan & xinyiquan with his own combat experience to create the set of 46 postures.

[Sal Canzonieri]

for the xinyi changquan set the encyclopedia is very brief. just says monk zhenxu (贞绪) (suxi's master) combined the basic skills of changquan & xinyiquan with his own combat experience to create the set of 46 postures.

Hmm, pretty modern times set then. A fun though set though, none the less.

[LFJ]

right. ven. zhenxu created a lot of new sets. this xinyi changquan, longquanjian (dragon spring sword), yanxingdao (wild-goose shape broadsword), etc.. he also revised some other sets, like the nanyuan shuangdao.

when he came to shaolin from longxing monastery after the passing of his master he started studying with abbot henglin, who as we know from the other thread created the dameihuaquan set. so i guess he inspired ven. zhenxu's creativity. :)

[wuseng33]

LFJ, no its not the shi san gong I studied this also, the set i know is maybe double if not more the length of the shi san gong and also contains similar movements. for me it is similar to doing a cross between shi san gong and pao quan. with elements of both combined. (sorry to go off topic again)

[Sal Canzonieri]

LFJ, no its not the shi san gong I studied this also, the set i know is maybe double if not more the length of the shi san gong and also contains similar movements. for me it is similar to doing a cross between shi san gong and pao quan. with elements of both combined. (sorry to go off topic again)

Oh, you mean the Rou Quan Er Lu set that Zhu Tian XI teaches in his vcd series?
That's not the real name for the set, it's a name used for convenience.

The set is really long, like 108 moves, many more movements.

It contains the whole Luohan 13 Gong (and Luohan 13 Quan) within it.
I had posted on YouTube two versions of it by Zhu Tianxi, one from the VCD series and one from his youth, in which he leaves out a section in the middle.

It starts with "piercing behind the back" and then goes into Kai Men (open the gate) movements (twice), and then goes into Pierce the Ears, then Silk reeling, and then Planting Fist, from that into Luohan Bears a Flag (also known as Tiger movement from Xin Yi Ba), then some movements before going into an elbow strike, etc., etc.

That routine?

[wuseng33]

yes it is the rou quan er lu set i am talking about (sorry if there was some confusion) i am in china and cant see the youtube video's and i have searched the chinese pages but could not find the set on the net but the way you describe it sounds exacly the same.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes it is the rou quan er lu set i am talking about (sorry if there was some confusion) i am in china and cant see the youtube video's and i have searched the chinese pages but could not find the set on the net but the way you describe it sounds exacly the same.

okay! Mystery solved.

Well, I would say that Rou Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, and Pao Quan go together like peas in a pod.
One big interlocking puzzle, the roots of both Henan Tongbei Quan (from 1500s) and later Chen Taiji Quan. Throw in Luohan Quan and you have the roots of Chang family Neijia Quan too.

[LFJ]

wuseng33,

if you call that 108 posture rouquan set "rouquan erlu", then is it the luohan shisangong rouquan set you call yilu?

through ven. suxi's lineage? out of interest, with whom did you study these sets? :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

wuseng33,

if you call that 108 posture rouquan set "rouquan erlu", then is it the luohan shisangong rouquan set you call yilu?

through ven. suxi's lineage? out of interest, with whom did you study these sets? :)

Yeah! I'd like to know that too.

And, what about the SAN LU Rou Quan set.
Luohan Shisan Gong Quan is yi lu, the 108 is er lu, and there is a San Lu.

Have you learned or seen it?

These three sets come from Shi Degen, I didn't know that Suxi learned them from him?

Shaolin has a different Rou Quan Yi Lu and ER Lu, its supposedly from a different lineage and time period.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shi Yong Xin's Chan Hu Xin Yi Men book vs:

- Shaolin Encyc. version is pretty close, up until the very last section, then they go astray pretty much. Shi Yongxin's version has more transitional movements shown as well.

- Tagou version is close to about half way through the set, then they go far far astray from each other, barely matching up to the very end of the sets. Tagou verison has too many repeating parts that get very confusing.

What can I say?

[wuseng33]

yes i was originaly introduced to the louhan shi san gong as just rou quan but later learned of the other name which seems more common for this set, I also thought it was better to call it this as i have seen some different versions of rouquan but whenever i have heard of shi san gong it was always the same set.
the shifu who taught me these sets is shifu brett russell "xing wu" in australia and he learned them from "shi de feng" who is also know as feng shan or benny fan who was a deciple of master suxi and a training brother of master de yang.
there is a 3rd set of rou quan san lu and i have seen shifu brett russell do it and too me from memory "and its been a while" seemed very simlar to chen lao jia forms and is on the top of my list for forms to learn in the future.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes i was originaly introduced to the louhan shi san gong as just rou quan but later learned of the other name which seems more common for this set, I also thought it was better to call it this as i have seen some different versions of rouquan but whenever i have heard of shi san gong it was always the same set.
the shifu who taught me these sets is shifu brett russell "xing wu" in australia and he learned them from "shi de feng" who is also know as feng shan or benny fan who was a deciple of master suxi and a training brother of master de yang.
there is a 3rd set of rou quan san lu and i have seen shifu brett russell do it and too me from memory "and its been a while" seemed very simlar to chen lao jia forms and is on the top of my list for forms to learn in the future.

cool.

LFJ, does Shi deyang do these three Rou Quan sets?

If so, he should do them on video, I think a lot more people would be interested in seeing them vs yet another version of Xiao Hong Quan.

[wuseng33]

yeah would be great to see a few more of these old sets making an re emergence. what particularly interests me also is some of the variations on some of the applications as i have seen a few for these 2 forms with some as plain as day and some that i would have never even imagined.

[LFJ]

Shi Yong Xin's Chan Hu Xin Yi Men book vs:

- Shaolin Encyc. version is pretty close, up until the very last section, then they go astray pretty much. Shi Yongxin's version has more transitional movements shown as well.

- Tagou version is close to about half way through the set, then they go far far astray from each other, barely matching up to the very end of the sets. Tagou verison has too many repeating parts that get very confusing.

the shaolin encyc. introduction to it names liu baoshan as one of the present day inheritors of the style. and i've heard him say changhuxinyimen & qixingquan are the true treasures in tagou.

if thats the case i wonder if their version is not older and/or more accurate. the encyc. also talked about how many of the repetitive sequences were taken out by various monks who edited the set through history, while tagou's seem to still have many of them.

hmm.

[Sal Canzonieri]

the shaolin encyc. introduction to it names liu baoshan as one of the present day inheritors of the style. and i've heard him say changhuxinyimen & qixingquan are the true treasures in tagou.

if thats the case i wonder if their version is not older and/or more accurate. the encyc. also talked about how many of the repetitive sequences were taken out by various monks who edited the set through history, while tagou's seem to still have many of them.

hmm.

Hmm, yeah, that calls for a more finer comparison between the two versions.
Liu Baoshan's sons made the Tagou books.

I have Liu Baoshan's new DVDs on these sets, I'll have to see how he does them himself and compare.

[r.(shaolin)]

Is this this the site in question?

http://www.bennyfan.com/martialarts.html

r.

ps sal and LFJ
here is that crossed and palm crossed palm yinxiang (印相) again
first photo, second row.
http://www.bennyfan.com/photos.html

[Sal Canzonieri]

r.

ps sal and LFJ
here is that crossed and palm crossed palm yinxiang (印相) again
first photo, second row.

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

[wuseng33]

practicing gongfu is different for everyone who practices, there is no right or wrong method and in modern times it is mainly done for health benifits. it is also what you make of it whether you practice for health, martial, historical and cultural benifits like has been noted previously not every taolu has been documented so who is to say who is right or wrong? we can only seach as best possible for the most original information. sal i am not calling you out but would also appreciate seeing some footage of your self, do you have any? I have seen shifu brett russell do some great things in the past that i have not seen many people do such as some hard qi gong and will personaly say that he puts in more hard work than any other foreign martial artist i have ever met. each individual houses their own unique talents and should not be judged until the end product is reached which may just be enlightenment?
I am not here to argue with anyone just continue learning about shaolin.

[LFJ]

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

[r.(shaolin)]

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

First of all I do not disagree, this kind of gesture does have applications and can appear in the middle of sets as well. In our school we have this as well.
However "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手) this name suggests a salute as you say.

This crossed wrist/male/female hand salute (skill/method enforcing wisdom) is a kind of mudra/salute (yinxiang 印相) called 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin) I believe. This yinxiang 印相 can be used to greet one's teacher or other students as well (施無畏印相). Actually the meaning and history of this gesture is more complicated than this.

r.

[LFJ]

This crossed wrist/male/female hand salute (skill/method enforcing wisdom) is a kind of mudra/salute (yinxiang 印相) called 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin) I believe. This is yinxiang 印相 can be use to greet one's teacher or other students as well. Actually the meaning and history of this gesture is more complicated than this.

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

[r.(shaolin)]

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

re: http://www.bennyfan.com/photos.html

That's right. There is both a right; a left (used by bodhisattva guardians (http://fotosa.ru/stock_photo/WorldPicture/p_243036.jpg)) the one we use mostly; a right and left; and a crossed version (http://www.azibaza.com/lecture/images/pos01.jpg) which is possibly 伏魔印 connected to Vajrapani (http://wiki.fjdh.com/uploads/A_DFB_J/0100.JPG) 金剛手菩薩. I'm looking for the characters for these.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

but it is also used in other sets, such as datongbiquan, dameihuaquan, etc.. but as an application, not just a salute. see here at :07, datongbiquan applications;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tT_EZujCg

r.(shaolin),

what is the name of the salute? in the luohan 18 shou yilu set the first one is called "fuzi gongshou" (夫子拱手), which is sort of a salutation type of name. but then, when it flips over it is called "baihu xilian" (白虎洗脸). and at the end it is again different; "xianren guidong" (仙人归洞). they each have different applications, and therefore different names.

One interesting thing about these movements of this set is that they are essentially the same functionally and so on as Bagua Zhang's Single Palm Change. in fact, the whole first section is the first three palm changes, and most of the rest of the set has classic Bagua Zhang postures and movements.

[r.(shaolin)]

hmm, 施無畏印 is the chinese translation of abhayaprada mudra, aka the fearlessness mudra. which is usually just the right hand held up at chest level with the palm facing toward the object as if to say "fear not".

re: http://www.bennyfan.com/photos.html

That's right. There is both a right; a left (used by bodhisattva guardians (http://fotosa.ru/stock_photo/WorldPicture/p_243036.jpg)) the one we use mostly; a right and left; and a crossed version (http://www.azibaza.com/lecture/images/pos01.jpg) which is possibly 伏魔印 connected to Vajrapani (http://wiki.fjdh.com/uploads/A_DFB_J/0100.JPG) 金剛手菩薩. I'm looking for the characters for these.

We also use the yinxiang 印相, of 甘露王 (http://www.bliav.org.au/resources/dharma/statues/north-buddha.jpg) Gan Lu Wang Buddha (seal of Calmness-Buddha calms a charging elephant. This is also is a kind of 施無畏印/Shiwu weiyin.
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Posted by Shifu Xing Wu
There are also many variations of the forms, and some if many aren't documented.....

The interesting thing is, my Shifu, like most Shaolin Temple Masters[old school],not the display ones, . . ..
There are so many more lines of Traditional Shaolin Masters who left the temple,

good point.
r.

[GeneChing]

I appreciate your situation, Shifu Xing Wu, and we've discussed it some privately. An online forum is an organic creature. Everyone and anyone with web access can contribute. We don't ask for ID, credentials or anything. This is not only because that is the general nature of a web forum, but also because we hope to cater to beginners too. Unfortunately, given that this is a martial forum, much of the daily banter has descended to locker room talk. Personally, I'm a little disappointed in that, but when something grows, there's always a pubescent stage. Also, despite our international access, our primary readership is American, and being from Oz I'm sure you'll agree that America is a country stuck in pubescence. ;)

That being said, a forum is a bit like a masquerade. Some of us, like Sal and me, go nekkid into it. We use the same names that are on our birth certificates. Some use their martial titles like you are, and others use whatever made up name they like. That's part of the sport of it, frankly, and should be taken with a huge grain of salt and a large dollop of humor. People besmirch my name here all the time, just like my teammates used to talk smack in the locker room.

Maybe LFJ is a senior Shaolin disciple. Maybe he's a Shaolin wuseng. Maybe he's a punk 11-year-old kid. The only legal identification I am obligated and able to divulge (and this would be in response to legal action) is his IP. Then it would be up to legal to chase down that IP. So it's totally up to LFJ if he wants to 'fess up to his true identity to you.

I'm sorry that your introduction to our forum here has been so volatile. We do have some very good Shaolin discussions here and given your involvement with Shaolin, would enjoy your participation. In movies, the Manchus need to kill your whole family before you take refuge at Shaolin. Here in the 21st century, it just takes someone talking smack to lure you into the first chamber of our forums. I hope we get over this dispute and continue this discussion of Xin Yi.

Sal has extended an olive branch, which is an honorable gesture at this point. As for LFJ, that's between you two gentlemen now.

[Sal Canzonieri]

good point.
r.

Very true, my Shaolin comes from lines outside of Shaolin temple, and many many people have looked to their guidance, including Shaolin Temple itself.

The new series that Abott Shi Yongxin is doing is from the folk masters, they are taking a serious look at the routines Shaolin has been doing and researching amongst the folk masters the most correct way to do the routines.

So, even Shaolin itself is now warmly recognizing the folk Shaolin masters, and are very interested in looking at any routines that have been either lost over time at the temple or were only practiced amongst the folk Shaolin Quan masters.

[GeneChing]

It's more that the general public just wanted to see monks. But if you actually go to Shaolin, it's clear that the folk masters have substantial power and say about the direction of Songshan Shaolin nowaday. It's nice to see this official nod from the Abbot in terms of a publication. However, the Abbot has given many official nods in other media. Taguo, which is as folk master as you can get given that Liu Baoshan is a card-holding communist (so not Buddhist by any measure), set a grand stele within the innermost courtyard of the temple. That's a major nod.

My Nov Dec 2008 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=789) cover story was on a folk master - see Shaolin Masters Keeping the Faith (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=793) by Gigi Oh and me. This is a prime example of why the monks take precedence. With Shaolin, we do our annual Shaolin specials, and it's a major sell point for a robed monk to be on our cover on the newsstands. So Chen Tongshan couldn't be on the cover of our Shaolin special. He wouldn't shave and robe up which is understandable; it would have been totally inappropriate if he did. So to put him on our Shaolin special cover would have been like stabbing ourselves in the foot.

But more to the point, in our 2003 Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397), I penned (or rather keyboarded) an article titled So You Want to Train at Shaolin? Your Guide to Dengfeng and New Shaolin Village. In it, I listed the Tep ten Masters of Shaolin (only one had a monk title - Shi Deqian), as well as the 18 Diamonds of Shaolin and the 18 Lohan of Shaolin, both of which were mostly folk masters. These 3 lists were from official Dengfeng standings.

The folk masters of Shaolin are the hidden treasures of Dengfeng....hidden right out in the open if you're not blinded by bald heads and orange robes (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-001.html). ;)

[r.(shaolin)]

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

In imperial times it was by the opening (and closings) of the sets and the basics/fundamentals that exponents of a lineage recognized each other. The actual sets often varied between generations even from the same lineages and were not a good indication of relationship.

That cross hand '印' used by Shi Su Yun indicates that one time we had a common ancestor.

According to our older generations when the Shaolin school adopted sets from the outside they did two things: made changes to the form so that it did not contradict the basics of the school and secondly they added Shaolin yin 印 to the the beginning and end. Generally the original style salutation would also be left in. This created longer openings for some sets. During the modern period I believe many of these openings have been dropped. This why most of the Shaolin set today just begin after just a generic Buddhist 合十 合爪/合掌 gesture. As well what was passed on to us was that the 合掌 gesture was used only by ordained monks before the yinxiang 印相 of the lineage and laity and lay brothers 優婆塞 and sisters 優婆夷 did not use it.

r.

[GeneChing]

I've seen a folk master do a similar crossed forearm salute in a demo in Dengfeng. Unfortunately, I didn't get that masters name. I'm not even sure he was from Dengfeng. He may have just been visiting. I've seen a lot of Dengfeng demos and they all get blurred together.

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-hq004.html). I've always done my Songshan Shaolin salutes like a namaste bow, which is how Shi Decheng first taught me. Yan Fei has been trying to transmit proper breathing at the beginning and ending of forms, so he shows the other students this way. He never comments on my namaste style (he has plenty of other stuff to comment on with me) but I'm rather attached to it. For me, the forms are very much a part of my Buddhist meditation, so I feel more connected doing it that way. Decheng was under Suyun too, but he never showed me that way of saluting.

[r.(shaolin)]

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade

Is there a pic of this?
r.

[GeneChing]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style. ;)

That's my implied point in all this. We can study the minutiae of the forms, but ultimately, there's variation within each lineage, so it's really muddled research. Of course, now we have youtube and can make some comparisons. But those youtube vids are just snapshots. I've someone was to take a snapshot of Yan Fei's class, they might get the wrong impression. He might be doing something different than his master taught him in an effort to transmit a lesson. I do something different than what Yan Fei teaches me because I've had different input. Decheng does something different than this Suyun bow, possibly because he was connected to the Wushuguan for so many years and they probably standardized all of that for unity of their performances. It's tricky research, and in the end, might have no real meaning whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say that to discourage you in this research. In fact, I really enjoy reading it here. But in a typical Buddhist fashion, I wouldn't get to attached to it.

[r.(shaolin)]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style. ;)

Hi Gene,
These breath sequences appears in the beginning or end of a number of our sets as well.
As you say "'raise your hands, palms up and inhale lower your hands, palms down, exhale'" or as some other similar movement and inhale followed by palms down, exhale'"
But these are not salutes.
r.

[GeneChing]

However, some of my classmates might think it is. And when they do it, just as a qi gathering exercise, I'm doing my gassho salute. I use that salute as a qi gathering movement to frame my form. So for me, it's a floor wax and a dessert topping (http://www.hulu.com/watch/61320/saturday-night-live-shimmer-floor-wax). ;)

[LFJ]

to brett,

the point was never to defame anyone. you have taken offense too early. we were talking about shaolin rouquan, and one of my comments and observations about your claims and practices based on my experience and research stirred you up.

the only interest here has been to continue discussing our research of what we all practice. if we are truly interested in spreading the art, then it is worth the extra effort to understand and gain as much knowledge about its history and theory as possible. which doesnt come through practice alone.

rather than defend your person, defend your stances. please contribute to the research as you apparently know something we dont...

regarding your rouquan, do you think you could offer any sort of hard evidence that it is in ven. suxi's lineage? perhaps even your master doing it, or in some way having him personally confirm its origin as it came to him? or other people in ven. suxi's lineage practicing this set? that would really help the search.

i'm not interested in your flexibility or articles. thats all great though, but not what i'm looking for from you. there is no personal attack on you, but merely a disagreement about your material, large though it may be.

regarding your questions of me and my experience, i have already answered what is relevant to the discussion, but you read over it apparently. also i have seen you copy straight from me, so i'd rather not embarrass you here with the full story. since personal situations are not the focus here, but uncovering the origin and history of shaolin material.

as i said, if you are willing to contribute to that cause, i'm interested in speaking with you more. if you just want a personal fight, join a drama club.

peace. :)

[LFJ]

I've seen a folk master do a similar crossed forearm salute in a demo in Dengfeng. Unfortunately, I didn't get that masters name. I'm not even sure he was from Dengfeng. He may have just been visiting. I've seen a lot of Dengfeng demos and they all get blurred together.

that would also be master yang guiwu, as he performed shaolin hububa (tiger catching), stamping on the dents in the floor in the old shaolin documentary. after his performance he turns toward his group of students and they all salute each other like this.

[r.(shaolin)]

However, some of my classmates might think it is. And when they do it, just as a qi gathering exercise, I'm doing my gassho salute. I use that salute as a qi gathering movement to frame my form. So for me, it's a floor wax and a dessert topping (http://www.hulu.com/watch/61320/saturday-night-live-shimmer-floor-wax). ;)

I'm off to supper :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zum1-2un-Mg&feature=related

[LFJ]

Or what about Kan Jia Fist.......I love this form...awesome real life defence apps..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBagR6tKQ5k

A 10,000 word theises on this perhaps??? Sal , LFJ......

Amitofo
Master Shifu Brett Russell

kanjiaquan? how about a 1 word thesis?

"liuhequan"

compare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQEP54fBMuU

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style. ;)

That's my implied point in all this. We can study the minutiae of the forms, but ultimately, there's variation within each lineage, so it's really muddled research. Of course, now we have youtube and can make some comparisons. But those youtube vids are just snapshots. I've someone was to take a snapshot of Yan Fei's class, they might get the wrong impression. He might be doing something different than his master taught him in an effort to transmit a lesson. I do something different than what Yan Fei teaches me because I've had different input. Decheng does something different than this Suyun bow, possibly because he was connected to the Wushuguan for so many years and they probably standardized all of that for unity of their performances. It's tricky research, and in the end, might have no real meaning whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say that to discourage you in this research. In fact, I really enjoy reading it here. But in a typical Buddhist fashion, I wouldn't get to attached to it.

I was taught to do my Rou Quan sets and my Taizu Chang quan set with similar rising of the arms palms up and circle them back down with palms down, coordinated with breathing deep and rising and lowering of heels. First up and then down, then out like hugging a huge soft ball and then squeezing it into yourself.
I was told this was the very old way of doing the Shaolin salute. I see that many of Shi Degen's students do this as well as some Taizu Quan people.

Both Shi Degen's students Shi Dejian and Zhu Tianxi all first learned Taizu Chang Quan before they learned Shaolin Quan.
I think that Shi Degen maybe also learned Taizu Chang Quan first? Dimly remember reading that.

I noticed that some of Liu Zhenhai's sets (being both from Shi Degen and also from folk traditions) have three or more layers of salutes before they get going, each other is a tag line from some ancient master or lineage.

[LFJ]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style. ;)

actually the namaste bow is also an important opening and closing qigong movement. usually it is done by circling the arms from out wide up over your head, coordinated with the breath, and at the very top you are bringing a "qi ball" into the laogong points on your palms. then bringing it in front of your chest.

this is what really resets your qi at the end or gets it circulating at the start. so whether buddhist or not, it is really important to do this movement, not just the raising and lower of the palms.

also when starting the routines, people hold their fists too wide apart at the waist. they should be held closer to the front of the dantian so as to not "leak" qi. if you open your fists, your fingertips should be able to touch those on the opposite hand.

overlooking this minor detail also results in less energy when running your form.

[Sal Canzonieri]

kanjiaquan? how about a 1 word thesis?

"liuhequan"

compare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQEP54fBMuU

Hmm, Brett, are you sure that video is labeled right? Just checking.
As I have always seen that form you are doing called Shaolin 6 Harmony Boxing, the Liehe Quan set.

Kanjia (Protect the Headquarters or Home or School) Quan sets are a long series of sets usually. They look entirely different from that one that you show on the video.

The Shaolin Kanjia Quan that I have ever seen is like this:
http://www.56.com/u63/v_MTk4MTk4NTI.html

[r.(shaolin)]

actually the namaste bow is also an important opening and closing qigong movement. usually it is done by circling the arms from out wide up over your head, coordinated with the breath, and at the very top you are bringing a "qi ball" into the laogong points on your palms. then bringing it in front of your chest.

this is what really resets your qi at the end or gets it circulating at the start. so whether buddhist or not, it is really important to do this movement, not just the raising and lower of the palms.

also when starting the routines, people hold their fists too wide apart at the waist. they should be held closer to the front of the dantian so as to not "leak" qi. if you open your fists, your fingertips should be able to touch those on the opposite hand.

overlooking this minor detail also results in less energy when running your form.


Just so I'm on the same page when both of you are talking about "namaste bow" we are talking about this 印合掌 yin hezhang (http://www.luckymojo.com/UPLOAD-FOR-LARA/buddha-avalokiteshvara.jpg). We use this yin as well in various sets and training including horse standing for beginning students.
r.

[LFJ]

yes, exactly. joined palms.

[r.(shaolin)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfGb4SJ8NEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

In looking at the stiff leg kicks these video's I think we do this kind of kick differently. Although the dynamics of in Shi De Yang's stiff kick may be using the same 'leg shorting' we use.

The stiff-legged kicks used in our lineage of Shaolin are all done at eyebrow height and do not go above the head. The names of some of the stiff leg kicks we do are:

Qi Mei Tui (齊眉腿)–Stop at Eyebrow Leg
Guan Er Tui (貫耳腿)–Pierce Ear Leg
Xie Guan Er Tui (斜貫耳腿)–Slanting Pierce Ear Leg, also called Xie Gua Tui (斜掛腿)
Wai BaiTui (外擺腿)–Outside Swing Leg, also called Shun Feng Bai Tui (順風擺腿)–Go with Wind Swing Legs.

These kicks generate power and speed by using a totally different kind of internal dynamic than do similar looking kicks which go above the head. Basically power and speed is generated by shortening the arc of the leg at the pelvis during the kick.

r.

[RenDaHai]

Back to Xin Yi quan,

Chang Hu Xin YI men is an important set. THe vast majority around in dengfeng is from tagou from liu baoshan.

I have videos of liu bao shaon, his second son liu hai qin and his third son liu hai ke and they all do it slightly differently, also it is different again in the book written by first so liuhaichao. SHows you how much forms can vary if they vary within the same family.

Tagous is really a great version. Chang hu xin yi men forms a couple with qi xing quan. They are tagous best forms, and since tagou is the biggest school in.. the world pretty much (20,000 students) this must be the most frequently practiced shaolin form.

The version in Yongxins books is actually very similar, except that it uses different basics. It uses hammers instead of fists, and uses a different guarding stance, although with the same meaning. It is pretty much the same applications in the same order. Very interesting variation though, it fits in with the rest of shaolins major forms much more closely than tagous.


Here is another version

http://www.56.com/u98/v_MjAxMTY0NDc.html

On the video, ignore the incorrect subtitles. The first form is Da tongbei quan the second form is Zhaoyang quan (guan chao quan) the third is changhuxinyimen, but it appears to be done with more sections than the standard. DOes anyone know this performer or where this version is from?

[LFJ]

this version, although way too fast and flowery, is the only one i've seen that matches the shaolin encyclopedia all the way. same direction and everything. even ends in mabu instead of gongbu like most.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI0ODMyMjg=.html

[RenDaHai]

this version, although way too fast and flowery, is the only one i've seen that matches the shaolin encyclopedia all the way. same direction and everything. even ends in mabu instead of gongbu like most.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI0ODMyMjg=.html

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly Tagous version (except tagou ends with gong bu). This performance is from Wushu Guan.

THis is the standard, same form but very different look to the one in YongXIns yellow book.

[LFJ]

what do you guys have for the application of the move following the danbian at the beginning, where you shrink in and pull both fists into the dantian area?

[GeneChing]

You're sure of that, are you LFJ? Do you have any idea how many folk masters I've seen demonstrate in Dengfeng? :rolleyes:

[LFJ]

well, "that would also be master yang guiwu". :)

[Sal Canzonieri]

what do you guys have for the application of the move following the danbian at the beginning, where you shrink in and pull both fists into the dantian area?

I can do it as a takedown, if my wrists are grabbed.
Also as a deflection against a punch or grab and end with joint lock if necessary at end.

[LFJ]

here's the salute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn4uvWGmJo).

[LFJ]

how about this set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sHnR08ClU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgxM1MlvZ5k

[r.(shaolin)]

here's the salute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn4uvWGmJo).

Hi LFJ
Do you know any of these folks well enough to ask them about this salute.

I'm working on a post about it and other salutes/mudra's used in Shaolin.
cheers,
r.

[LFJ]

yang guiwu, no i dont know him. think he's pretty old and sickly now, doesnt teach as far as i know.

i can ask master deyang next time though.

[r.(shaolin)]

yang guiwu, no i dont know him. think he's pretty old and sickly now, doesnt teach as far as i know.

i can ask master deyang next time though.

thank you.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thank you.
r.

This salute is found in all the Shaolin Jingang Quan sets (beginning and end).

Also in the Er Lu Xiao Hong Quan set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

LFJ;

The Shaolin Xin Yi Quan set starting on page 130 of Shaolin Encyclopedia, the more I look at it the more it looks like Shaolin Fanzi Quan set, which was originally called Shaolin Xie Xing Quan (Slanted walking boxing) - a set that was descended from Xin Yi master Ji Long Feng's visits to Shaolin.

[LFJ]

@RDH,

I see how Changhuxinyimenquan shares more in common with Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan, than the modern day Xiaohongquan, which is missing the entire first section and loads of transitional movements.

Both Changhuxinyimenquan and Laojia Hongquan start out with a double palm push to the front, then turn to left xubu. Their xiexing-suoshen-xiexing go together without a kick in the middle, and are shortly followed by a danbian, a section that is repeated in both. Then their lihetui is immediately followed by a xieziwei, which appears in the middle. Then finally they have the left-right-left tuizhang doubled near the end.

There are some other similarities with footwork throughout, but I'd love to compare it to the Mogoupai Xiaohongquan.

There are obvious stylistic differences. But if Sal's research is accurate, then it's likely the Laojia Hongquan set was used as a template for Changhuxinyimenquan which uses rooster, tiger, and other animals techniques as came from interactions with Ji Longfeng.

The only question is, why does the Shaolin Encyclopedia state not only that Changhuxinyimenquan is from the Song Dynasty, but also names it's creator as monk Huiwei?

Song Dynasty, that would outdate Li Sou and his Laojia Hongquan set. But perhaps not Mogoupai's Xiaohongquan??

[RenDaHai]

By LaoJiaHongQuan I am not certain the set you mean?

Do You mean the one that looks like XHQ but with hook hand by hip, slightly longer?


In Which case I can explain. This form is actually from a Village called LuoTuoYuan (yup, the home village of Epo's LiangYiQuan). This village is famous for its kung fu and is most famous for TaizuChangQuan (the current shaolin set) which has its origins in this village also. They claim they brought it (TZCQ) from ShanXi Province 700 years ago, and have an unbroken lineage for this time. They have the best version of TZCQ still around. (Shaolin had other versions of TZCQ which don't appear to exist anymore and this set has filled the void).

This LaoJia form is a transition form. If you remember the Nanyuan XHQ I showed you it also has a lot in common with this set. The Nanyuan XHQ is from precisely 360 years ago (they have a well documented history). I think the LaoJia form is from the interim between this set and the current practiced XHQ.

Actually Both the Nanyuan XHQ and the current Shaolin XHQ both have 4 roads. The 2nd road of Nanyuan XHQ is very close to the second road of the current XHQ despite the 360 year separation. The 3rd and 4th sets I have not seen fully.

The LaoJia form is just 1 set. It has techniques from the later sets incorperated into the first road of XHQ. So although it looks like Laojia is a more complete form it is actually a much smaller form. It is just that few people practice the full 4 roads of XHQ nowadays. All the extra techniques you mentioned can be found in the complete 216 move XHQ.


Mogou XHQ is at least 500 years seperate from Shaolin. It is also Xiyuan Pai. I think it outdates all of them and is closer to the original. Mogou XHQ is 1 form in 3 sections but it originally had many many more sections. (XHQ is a 4 road tech set). The later sections have passed into disuse but parts can be seen in MOgous other forms. Mogou XHQ also contains techs from er lu XHQ. What is interesting is that CHXYM paralells MogouXHQ so closely that it must have come from a time after the extra sections of XHQ had already been lost. So not long ago (less than 200 yrs).

The exact time of Mogou XHQ is unknown. They say there is a time 500 years ago where their sect splits form Shaolin, but it doesn't rule out them having their Kung Fu before this.


If you view Mogou-Nanyuan-Laojia-Current XHQ in that order it is a smooth and obvious evolution. I know all these sets. I learned LaoJia in LuoTuoYuan, Mogou in Mogou, Nanyuan in Ruan and Current in Shaolin. I have quite a unique view because I am one of the few who practices all these different versions (and actually bothered to learn them from the source).


Why does the encyclopedia have an early date for CHXYM? It is quite possible the Name is very old. The original may have lost all but a few stances, so they reused the name when they reintegrated Mogou HOng quan. This would get confused when looking over old records as all forms drift with time. The form has other names that slip my mind now. Just a theory, but its all I have on that name CHXYM.


Mogou also has a LaoHong set. One interesting point is that all the XHQ sets feature ShiZiDaZhangZui prominantly, except Mogou XHQ which doesn't have it. However Mogou LAOhongQuan DOES have ShiZiDaZhangZui. Must come from an old technique pool which is older than all the sets.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The problem is with the word Song Dynasty. They didn't recognize the Mongol rule and what it meant is the way later end of the Southern Song dynasty era.

The Xinyi Quan part of the Changxinyi Quan set is from Ji Longfeng and it is documented when he and his students visited Shaolin and what monks learned from them. Its some where in my book that I have had no time to work on for the past 6 months (went through divorce, more surgery coming up, working to build Qigong healing practice, etc., etc).

The time period that Li Sou was at Shaolin is the very end of the Song, which is called the Yuan dynasty most places, but Shaolin didn't drop their loyalty.

[LFJ]

Hmm..

The Southern Song Dynasty ended in 1279. The Yuan Dynasty had begun in 1271. This would perhaps allow for the creation of Changhuxinyimenquan to have taken place in the "Song" period and use Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan as a template, assuming he was in Shaolin early enough in the 13th century.

But then there's the problem that Ji Longfeng lived between the years of 1588 and 1662. So how could a Song Dynasty (even if Southern Song) boxing set have been influenced by him?

Or are you suggesting, they edited the existing CHXYMQ to incorporate Xinyiquan elements?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm..

The Southern Song Dynasty ended in 1279. The Yuan Dynasty had begun in 1271. This would perhaps allow for the creation of Changhuxinyimenquan to have taken place in the "Song" period and use Li Sou's Laojia Hongquan as a template, assuming he was in Shaolin early enough in the 13th century.

But then there's the problem that Ji Longfeng lived between the years of 1588 and 1662. So how could a Song Dynasty (even if Southern Song) boxing set have been influenced by him?

Or are you suggesting, they edited the existing CHXYMQ to incorporate Xinyiquan elements?

When Ji and later his students went to Shaolin, they brought Xinyi Ba there and Spear there. There is a Shaolin published book from that time period that still exists that talks of this, with names and so on.

It would be logical that Xiao hong Quan and Luohan Quan were the base that Ji Long Feng's art was added to.

What we know of today as Changhuxinyimenquan was most likely redone in the Qing dynasty like the rest of the group of the famous Shaolin Quan sets. It is more likely that the original raw version of this set was first developed in the Song and then changed like all the other sets were in the Qing when there was the great revision that collected together the main sets that we know now.

[LFJ]

It is true that the set has been added to and subtracted from over the centuries. So yeah, who knows what it looked like during each time period...

[LFJ]

Noticed in Shi Dejun's version of Laojia Hongquan every time he goes to dingbu or bingbu it is done with both feet flat and the front foot slightly ahead of the other and curved inward, like the jixingbu (rooster step), which seems to give more credibility to the connection between Hongquan and the "xinyi" rooster element of today's Changhuxinyimenquan.

But RDH, I recall you saying in Luotuoyuan they do it as a regular dingbu. Is that so?

It's first done at :15, then :21, :24 and so on here: Laojia Hongquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY)

[chanboxer]

Shi DeJian implies that his XinYiBa has nothing to do with Ji LongFeng saying “ XinYiBa was developed over a thousand years of self-sufficient farming” . Furthermore “XinYiBa refers to Buddha (xin), Chan(YI) and power (Ba)”

Is this documented elsewhere?

[RenDaHai]

Noticed in Shi Dejun's version of Laojia Hongquan every time he goes to dingbu or bingbu it is done with both feet flat and the front foot slightly ahead of the other and curved inward, like the jixingbu (rooster step), which seems to give more credibility to the connection between Hongquan and the "xinyi" rooster element of today's Changhuxinyimenquan.

But RDH, I recall you saying in Luotuoyuan they do it as a regular dingbu. Is that so?

It's first done at :15, then :21, :24 and so on here: Laojia Hongquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEop0aFSRY)

Yes, In LuoTuoYuan these are all Ding Bu. Funnily enough my QiXingQuan and CHXYM also use only DingBu. It is a difficult one because often old masters who can no longer stand in ding bu will adopt the flat foot stance instead and are imitated in their absence. It is also used by part time practicioners who cannot adopt a strong dingbu. However this kind of ShuShen does sometimes appear, but not as a recognised stance, just a natural shrinking of the body. Often when striking downwards, or grasping something and pulling towards.

The rooster step is actually a fairly complex technique as opposed to just a stance.

Its true the XinYiPai do sometimes use a similar stance, although they often have the front toe raised up slightly, which means the front foot is still empty, it is just preparing to move with the heel as opposed to with the toe, it is still effectively a form of Xu bu.

[LFJ]

Shi DeJian implies that his XinYiBa has nothing to do with Ji LongFeng saying “ XinYiBa was developed over a thousand years of self-sufficient farming” . Furthermore “XinYiBa refers to Buddha (xin), Chan(YI) and power (Ba)”

Is this documented elsewhere?

Most of the monks usually say some "history" like this. But this doesn't talk about any factual history, and is just his personal interpretation of it in layman's terms.

The eight layers of consciousness, focused on mainly in the Yogācāra school, appear heavily in the Chan school as well. Such as in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which Bodhidharma is said to have taught from.

In Chinese language, Xin (mind) and Yi (intent) refer to the 8th and 7th consciousnesses, ālayavijñāna and manasvijñāna in Sanskrit, respectively. These are what one needs to be able to control or have mastery over (Ba) and ultimately transform into wisdom, because Yi/ manas/ intent is basically responsible for the "seeds" of karma (intentional action) stored in the 8th consciousness, that have the potential to give rise to further habitual production of karma and bind one to saṃsāra.

So Xinyiba is a practice of using action meditation to transform these two base consciousnesses into wisdom, again in layman's terms.

If you were not familiar with the above, you could see how much easier it would be to explain Xinyiba to the layman as Buddha, Chan, and power. Although that's not really saying anything, it gives a satisfying answer which often doesn't lead to unanswered questions and further inquiry, which is good for an interview situation. The above is too much detail which would require a deeper study of Buddhism, suitable for discussion with your actual students and disciples rather than journalists or even average martial arts enthusiasts.

[RenDaHai]

@LFJ

Nice!

A perhaps more contemporary interpretation, one from a Taoist Martial sect with which I was involved, puts Xin (heart) akin to the Jungian Unconscious Mind (responsible for the uncontrollable aspects of our mind, instinct, emotion, dream, metabolic function etc.). Yi is the intent and the conscious mind. Achieving unification of Xin and Yi, is to understand ones self in a more profound way. To be able to communicate with and listen to the unconscious mind. So Mind, Body and Spirit are one.


Previously I never thought of interpreting 'Ba' as to control but it does make sense. Although Rett (from the forum) thought of it like this in a conversation we had last year in DengFeng.

[LFJ]

Still sounds very much like the ālaya and manas-vijñāna. :cool:

[RenDaHai]

Still sounds very much like the ālaya and manas-vijñāna. :cool:

Indeed it is! But in a more accessible terminology. I have to learn a few more of these buddhist terms....

[LFJ]

Previously I never thought of interpreting 'Ba' as to control but it does make sense. Although Rett (from the forum) thought of it like this in a conversation we had last year in DengFeng.

Somewhere on youtube I saw an interview with abbot Yongxin where he expressed this same interpretation as the goal of practicing martial arts in Shaolin, making mention of the style name of "Changhuxinyimen" and then Xinyiba.

[Xian]

Okay then here again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFNJeYcfFgQ

The name is Rising Dragon Canon Fist ?

What about the set ?LFJ mentioned it is more related to Ji Longfeng.


Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Not just related, it's said to have been created by him. I haven't seen this set in Shaolin, but the relation to Xingyiquan and Shaolin Xinyiquan is quite apparent throughout. And the performer is amazing!

[Xian]

Not just related, it's said to have been created by him. I haven't seen this set in Shaolin, but the relation to Xingyiquan and Shaolin Xinyiquan is quite apparent throughout. And the performer is amazing!

Yeah I had to see it a couple of times to see what you mean. I mean the relation to Xingyi Quan. So The Canon relates here more to the way with which energy he performs the set ? Like a other translation was given by RenDaHai I think it was "Energy Boxing".


Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

No one else can say anything about the set ?



Kind regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

No one else can say anything about the set ?

Kind regards,
Xian

I can't watch it, YouTube is still banned in China.

[LFJ]

A few bucks a month tells me otherwise, RDH. :p

Found the whole thing on youku though: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjA0Njg5MjM2.html

[RenDaHai]

A few bucks a month tells me otherwise, RDH. :p

Found the whole thing on youku though: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjA0Njg5MjM2.html

Always found proxies more trouble than their worth... But PM me the name of the one you use and I'll check it out.

Cheers for the video! Yeah, I thought I recognised the name.

Firstly this is not a Shaolin set. But as you guys say, the relation to XinYi is obvious. Which is pretty awesome because its not referred to as Xin Yi. (Pao Quan is fairly common name to call a stye or a form, even those not belonging to the styel Pao Quan. It means explosive, explosive fist). Why this is awesome is it means the history presented with the set may well be accurate.

i would definately like to see more sets from this style. But Sechuan is a long way.....