Sakuraba: The Greatest Catch Wrestler Of Our Era

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not going to say that Kazushi Sakuraba was not familiar with Japanese jiu jitsu - because he was. He fully understood the jiu jitsu use of guard, half guard, full mount, rear mount, etc.

But none of this negates the fact that he was a catch as catch can (cacc) wrestler, first and foremost.

In fact, the way the Gracie's, for example, took from other systems like wrestling (including catch) and made it part of their BJJ game - without actually changing the main thrust of their BJJ game...

is an exact parallel to the way Sakuraba worked some jiu jitsu into his catch wrestling game - without actually changing the main thrust of his cacc.

And to those who might think that I'm just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that's simply not my intention.

I just want to bring people's attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

Yes, I am a cacc enthusiast, and I'll state that upfront for the purposes of full disclosure.

But I've come to see that the BJJ bottom game (along with some other things that BJJ, and Japanese jiu jitsu/judo in general bring to the table) are important to know and be skilled in.

But here is Kazushi Sakuraba at his cacc best. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g

[goju]

man was a genius on the ground one of the only fighters who made watching a grappling match interresting

[diego]

I'm not going to say that Kazushi Sakuraba was not familiar with Japanese jiu jitsu - because he was. He fully understood the jiu jitsu use of guard, half guard, full mount, rear mount, etc.

But none of this negates the fact that he was a catch as catch can (cacc) wrestler, first and foremost.

In fact, the way the Gracie's, for example, took from other systems like wrestling (including catch) and made it part of their BJJ game - without actually changing the main thrust of their BJJ game...

is an exact parallel to the way Sakuraba worked some jiu jitsu into his catch wrestling game - without actually changing the main thrust of his cacc.

And to those who might think that I'm just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that's simply not my intention.

I just want to bring people's attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

Yes, I am a cacc enthusiast, and I'll state that upfront for the purposes of full disclosure.

But I've come to see that the BJJ bottom game (along with some other things that BJJ, and Japanese jiu jitsu/judo in general bring to the table) are important to know and be skilled in.

But here is Kazushi Sakuraba at his cacc best. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g
thx for the link, should help me with my movement analysis studies:D

[Frost]

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;966345]

And to those who might think that I'm just trying to make this into a catch vs. BJJ discussion, that's simply not my intention.

I just want to bring people's attention to what exactly Sakuraba was doing that made him such an enigma and nemesis to the BJJ world back in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

QUOTE]

So without making this a BJJ against catch thread what in your opinion was he doing that made him such an enigma…? Do you think it was down to him as a fighter or his catch training?

the BJJ guys didn’t have a problem with other catch trained fighters, they went through the likes of takada, Anjoh, Funaki, nakai, Imamura, Fujii etc so what was it about him that made him so special?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sakurba trained to defeat the Gracies, he studied their weaknesses and defeated them.
He never gave them anything, he hardly ever made any mistakes, was never "still enough" to get caught, was strong and had the stamina of a marathon runner.
in short, he was a great athlete with great strategy.
He understood the "know your enemy" view, he learned BJJ to learn how to exploit it and he did it very well.
A lesson there for all those that don't "like" grappling.

[Three Harmonies]

Here is a great interview (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/10/modern-catch-as-catch-can-wrestling.html) with Kris Isatkevich of the Quebec Toe Hold club on CACC and BJJ.

Great clip! Thanks!

[Ultimatewingchun]

The steroid issue aside, Josh Barnett is another guy who has become a catch wrestler (he learned from both Billy Robinson and Erik Paulson) - and has had a lot of success against BJJ and other grappling systems through the years.

So I don't think that Sakuraba's very high level athletic abilities are the only reason for his successes - since he's not alone as testimony to cacc itself.

As to what specifically about the style that presents problems to other systems?

I believe it's a combination of various rides and escapes that others may not be used to seeing, along with certain subs (and sub setups) that they're not used to seeing - and last but far from least, it's the dynamic unpredictability of the whole "catch any hold you can" strategy that messes people up. They are expecting to see a much more formula-like positional game than what catch usually brings to the table.

And when you throw in some of the wrestling takedowns and some of the cacc leglocks/shinlocks/toeholds that sometimes seem to come out of nowhere, yeah, the style can be a problem.

[lkfmdc]

It should be obvious but often isn't, to be a "catch wrestler" you have to be a WRESTLER first....

Sak was a very good wrestler. He had excellent foundation in the basics of wrestling. Most of the other "stiff style" guys in Japan are pro wrestlers, they learned to do stiff style pro wrestling, that doesn't necessarily mean their basic wrestling skills were up to snuff....

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sak also did some pro wrestling before his PRIDE days, didn't he? I'm sure of it.

And in fact, now that I think about it, his background in wrestling began with his training with Takada to be a pro wrestler.

Now Takada was once a training partner of Yoshiaki Fugiwara - Karl Gotch's top student. And Gotch was one of THE best cacc wrestlers of the 20th century. A pro wrestler who could really finish guys with submissions - also known as "hookers".

So there's a connection from Gotch to Sakuraba right from the beginning.

And then later on, Sakuraba spent time learning from Billy Robinson - also a high level cacc wrestler.

In fact, both Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson learned catch (at the same time) in Wigan, England under the legendary Billy Riley back in the early/mid 1950's (it was known as Lancashire catch).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maeda would have kicked all their asses !
:p

[Ultimatewingchun]

Got this from a jiu jitsu instructor's website some years ago: the only two matches that Maeda ever lost were to catch wrestlers while wrestling as a pro in Europe (under the name Count Koma) - and then he spent some time learning some stuff from these guys BEFORE settling in Brazil in 1916.

Interesting, huh?

And then there was Ad Santel (one of Lou Thesz's instructors) who went over to Japan and did real well in matches at the Kodokan (also back in the early 1900's).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Got this from a jiu jitsu instructor's website some years ago: the only two matches that Maeda ever lost were to catch wrestlers while wrestling as a pro in Europe (under the name Count Koma) - and then he spent some time learning some stuff from these guys BEFORE settling in Brazil in 1916.

Interesting, huh?

And then there was Ad Santel (one of Lou Thesz's instructors) who went over to Japan and did real well in matches at the Kodokan (also back in the early 1900's).

Have you read the book on Maeda?

[lkfmdc]

before he ever did "pro wrestling", Sak was a free style wrestler out of the same program most of Japan's olympic wrestling team comes from

[Three Harmonies]

Barnettt's ground game is no where near as good as Sak's! With or without steroids. Barnett is done and over, thankfully!

[Frost]

before he ever did "pro wrestling", Sak was a free style wrestler out of the same program most of Japan's olympic wrestling team comes from

That’s my point Sak trained with Takada et al but he faught better than them so where did he get his skills from? Takada and his guys were by and large owned on the ground, by BJJ guys. Takada got destroyed twice by Rickson as did a lot of the Japanese guys who claim a catch background.

None of them made the catch skills that Victor talks about work nearly as well as Sak did (Barnett is good on the ground but not in the same league), but even if you include him with Sak that’s what, 2 guys claiming a CACC background at the elite level? Where are the rest? If only 1 or 2 people can been seen to making it work then surely its more down to the individuals than the style

[Three Harmonies]

Everyone who fought him got destroyed by Rickson! He is God!
It is always down to the individual. Some folks are still young at this Frost and think it is a style thing. They will learn!
Jake

[monji112000]

Everyone who fought him got destroyed by Rickson! He is God!
It is always down to the individual. Some folks are still young at this Frost and think it is a style thing. They will learn!
Jake

I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..

[Frost]

I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..

I'm sorry and no offence meant but without names and places I'm calling bull on this one, every black belt, pro fighter I know and who has been with him has said the same thing, he is unreal and taps them at will, I tend to believe black belts and pro fighters over unsubstantiated stories, there are simply too many fighters and non Gracie black belts saying how good he is, if someone had truly beaten him and made him look bad, everyone would be talking about it

[Three Harmonies]

I am with Frost on this one. I am sure their have been several people who beat the hell out of Ali, but no one talks about it, no one taped it etc. etc. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Give me a break. IF some "kid" schooled Rickson, that "kid" would have made the rest of his life with that one win!!

And I am sorry, but if it is not in the ring it is not "official"!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know of a few people who have humbled Rickson.. Allot of things went on that are not taped, or privileged to public view. I know of one young kid (at the time he was a kid) who from what i have been told by two people who were training at the time , made him look real bad. No names will be given but you would be surprised. Nobody is perfect.. not even Rickson..

Yeah, I will need more than heresay on this especially since anyone that has even lasted 5 min with him TELLS EVERYONE !!
If someone had "humbled" him EVERYONE would know about it.
Fact is, Rickson is a freak, he is just on another level and I don't even LIKE the guy !

[lkfmdc]

in 1995 I personally sat there while Rickson took on about 200 seminar participants one by one and tapped all of them... he's human and all, but that said, he is also a remarkable BJJ player. And many a mundial champion has said they rolled with him and felt like they were kids and white belts all of a sudden...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes Rickson is/was indeed a remarkable BJJ player - but since this is a thread about Kazushi Sakuraba of all people - is there any doubt that Rickson didn't want to fight Sak because he thought he had little chance of winning? And instead gave the world the lamest of all lame excuses: "His aura isn't big enough".

But some good questions have been raised. Why have all the other Japanese pro wrestlers done so poorly in mma? Even if we include Josh Barnett (which we should do)...why only two quality catch wrestlers?

Actually there were three, because imo we have to include Erik Paulson, who was an amazing fighter. He was a hybrid grappler to be sure - but highly influenced by catch. And as I said on the first post, Sak was also skilled in judo/jiu jitsu and used it along with cacc.

Understanding the BJJ guard game (and being able to use guard as well as being able to beat it) is very important - and Sak was great at both. Understanding mount and back mount, not as emphasized in traditional catch, is also important.

So as always in today's world, crosstraining is important.

But the overall cacc approach - "catch any hold you can" - which means that subs will often be gone for regardless of position - sometimes as an attempt to end the fight, and sometimes as a means of enhancing one's controlling position...along with the other stuff I mentioned earlier that differentiate catch...is what prevailed and differentiated Sakuraba (and to a lessor but still significant extent with Barnett - and a little closer to Sak was Paulson, imo. I think that as good a wrestler/grappler as Barnett is/was - Paulson was even better).

But why so few?

Cacc was basically disappearing for decades, and is still in the process of making a comeback.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, sanjuro, what's the name of the book about Maeda?

[goju]

honestly and i know certain people here willget their solied midget panties in a bunch but i always thought rickson was a overrated wind bag hell even helio said so for christssakes:D


naaaah victor he was just sick thats why he couldnt fight sak lol
he came down with the same thing royce did when he fought hughes

[sanjuro_ronin]

Btw, sanjuro, what's the name of the book about Maeda?

"The Toughest Man who ever lived".

[Three Harmonies]

Rickson did not want to "tarnish" his "perfect" record. At 50 years old he did not want to fight Sak THAT bad! It is ego (common problem with the Gracie clan), nothing more, nothing less.

As for CACC having something special...nothing. All grapplers are going to "catch" any sub they can. That is nothing special to CACC.

As to why we do not see more CACC... I think you nailed it on the head... VERY VERY few teaching it! Not at all popular over here in the US. Jake Shannon is offering stuff if you are rich and can sift through the marketing scheme BS. Few others though.

Again why we do not see more of a specific style has little to do with style, and most to do with coaching. BJJ has more popularity, so more people training, so more people coaching, so better percentages of those coaching who are coaching WELL.
nothing to do with style. Great article by Kris Istakevich here (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/10/modern-catch-as-catch-can-wrestling.html)!

[Frost]

honestly and i know certain people here willget their solied midget panties in a bunch but i always thought rickson was a overrated wind bag hell even helio said so for christssakes:D


naaaah victor he was just sick thats why he couldnt fight sak lol
he came down with the same thing royce did when he fought hughes

I think we have been here before but here goes ....nope he fought Funaki who was a much bigger draw and pay day for him, and negotiations were well underway to finally fight Sak when his son went missing and died.

You are entitled to your opinion but I prefer to take the word of BJJ world champs, and pro fighters (who come from camps that hate Rickson) but who all say he is on another planet in terms of both BJJ and MMA in general

[Frost]

Rickson did not want to "tarnish" his "perfect" record. At 50 years old he did not want to fight Sak THAT bad! It is ego (common problem with the Gracie clan), nothing more, nothing less.

As for CACC having something special...nothing. All grapplers are going to "catch" any sub they can. That is nothing special to CACC.

As to why we do not see more CACC... I think you nailed it on the head... VERY VERY few teaching it! Not at all popular over here in the US. Jake Shannon is offering stuff if you are rich and can sift through the marketing scheme BS. Few others though.

Again why we do not see more of a specific style has little to do with style, and most to do with coaching. BJJ has more popularity, so more people training, so more people coaching, so better percentages of those coaching who are coaching WELL.
nothing to do with style. Great article by Kris Istakevich here (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/10/modern-catch-as-catch-can-wrestling.html)!

I think it has everything to do with style, 20 years ago no one was teaching BJJ outside of Brazil and a couple of garages in California, if catch was truly a good grappling style and an equal to BJJ then I think we would see it being used more. I don’t buy the argument of very few teaching it, it has been taught for years in Japan, in the UK and in the USA in a few places but it still is not popular why?

If a few guys went on a huge winning run in major No gi grappling using catch and in MMA people would be hammering at the doors of the guys that teach it and it would spread like wildfire, just like they did with GJJ and BJJ



By you way this is not meant to take anything away from Sak, he was one of the greatest fighters of his generation and Pride should have taken much better care of him

[sanjuro_ronin]

Considering that BJJ was designed for use with a GI, to compare it with catch wrestling is silly to begin with.
Matter of fact, taking into account that BJJ was designed for Gi work, the fact that it adapted so well to submission grappling and MMA (no gi) speaks volumes for the skill of the teachers.
I don't particularly care for BJJ, it is not my cup of tea, but do deny the effectiveness of it and how it revoltionized MA is just silly.
Fact: BJJ works, period.

[Frost]

It also speaks volumes to the brilliance of the art itself that it works so well in so many different venues.

What has always gotten to me is why people look for esoteric grappling arts or try to resurrect virtually extinct grappling systems when BJJ is such a proven and tested system. Why are they prepared to pay good money to attend training sessions with people of dubious ability and skill or pay lots of money for questionable instructional DVD’s from people who have probably never competed when BJJ can be found in virtually every city in the US and the UK with good instructors who’s competition records are easily checked.

It just strikes me as odd

[Wayfaring]

Yes Rickson is/was indeed a remarkable BJJ player - but since this is a thread about Kazushi Sakuraba of all people - is there any doubt that Rickson didn't want to fight Sak because he thought he had little chance of winning? And instead gave the world the lamest of all lame excuses: "His aura isn't big enough"

I'm not familiar with what happened later on, but this match was all the way to the negotiating stages when Rickson's son died. He quit fighting then and didn't do much at all for almost 6 years. I think that was the main reason.

[Wayfaring]

In fact, the way the Gracie's, for example, took from other systems like wrestling (including catch) and made it part of their BJJ game - without actually changing the main thrust of their BJJ game...

is an exact parallel to the way Sakuraba worked some jiu jitsu into his catch wrestling game - without actually changing the main thrust of his cacc.

Sakuraba is obviously one of the top grapplers for MMA ever. Did he ever do ADCC competitions?

I think with the proliferation of alive training methods and readily available competitions in BJJ and no gi sub wrestling a lot of these skills are blending together in the modern day - BJJ, wrestling forms (freestyle, folkstyle, greco, catch), sambo.

You can get to submission grappling skill from a number of entry points but the personal development has to go through the same cycles - there's no magic to it.



As to what specifically about the style that presents problems to other systems?

I believe it's a combination of various rides and escapes that others may not be used to seeing, along with certain subs (and sub setups) that they're not used to seeing - and last but far from least, it's the dynamic unpredictability of the whole "catch any hold you can" strategy that messes people up. They are expecting to see a much more formula-like positional game than what catch usually brings to the table.

And when you throw in some of the wrestling takedowns and some of the cacc leglocks/shinlocks/toeholds that sometimes seem to come out of nowhere, yeah, the style can be a problem.

I think that some of this may have been more true 20 yrs ago, 10 yrs ago than now. Catch definitely presents many of the same problems to the traditional guard-emphasized BJJ that any skilled wrestler does. In addition it has subs, which most skilled wrestlers don't have. Good wrestlers can neutralize a lot of sub opportunities as well - one example is Randy Couture - a Greco guy fighting Jacare to a draw. A couple things to consider, though:

1) BJJ past beginner levels really isn't "formula-like position". I think the positions, hierarchies, and point assignments in competition were put in place correctly to assess relative advantage in these positions from a real fighting scenario with striking included. The tournament based BJJ butt scooters kind of miss out on a lot of this. One interesting story I heard about this was someone I trained with attended a Royce Gracie seminar where a purple belt tournament hotshot was mouthing off about some of these fundamentals being obsolete. Royce immediately paired everyone off to do a 15 min round with slaps included, paired up with the purple belt and proceeded to pass guard and go from mount to back mount slapping the bejesus out of the guy. Royce himself lost his last MMA fight losing fundamental position to Matt Hughes.

2) There's a whole lot of catch-like stuff showing up in BJJ more lately - leg locks - inside/outside heel hooks, toeholds, calf slicers, etc. It may not use the same terms but it's like an alternative grip to the Americana rather than a top wristlock. All the same stuff though.

3) The one area I hope catch progresses though is a general weakness among most wrestlers of fighting off the back. You have to bring the guard game up to being skilled so that you can have a good training partner to practice passing the guard. You sound like you're migrating more to that perspective as well, which I think is good.

Anyway, cool thread. Nice vid of Sak. Sak's still the man - he got beat half to death by Zelg but still ended up heel hooking him destroying his knee and foot locking him destroying his ankle. I'd much rather be Sak than Zelg after that fight.

[monji112000]

I'm sorry and no offence meant but without names and places I'm calling bull on this one, every black belt, pro fighter I know and who has been with him has said the same thing, he is unreal and taps them at will, I tend to believe black belts and pro fighters over unsubstantiated stories, there are simply too many fighters and non Gracie black belts saying how good he is, if someone had truly beaten him and made him look bad, everyone would be talking about it

no offense taken. Rickson is a amazing grappler, but that doesn't mean he doesn't lose. Maybe you may be able to convince me to tell you in person some of the stories I hear.. but not on the internet. If you were to ask those people they would just laugh at you anyway. Allot of things happen without the public view. Both people are top notch BJJ fighters. One of them was already a well respected black belt..

I don't know why anyone would find this so hard to believe, unless you think he is "perfect".. or is a god. Hey if thats what you feel, get ready for a allot of personal issues in your life.

[goju]

I think we have been here before but here goes ....nope he fought Funaki who was a much bigger draw and pay day for him, and negotiations were well underway to finally fight Sak when his son went missing and died.

You are entitled to your opinion but I prefer to take the word of BJJ world champs, and pro fighters (who come from camps that hate Rickson) but who all say he is on another planet in terms of both BJJ and MMA in general

helio gracie THE BIG CHEESE OF ALL CHEESES IN BRAZILLIAN JUJITSU said himself rickson taps out his white belts and counts that as one of his great victories lol

ill take helios word over anyones on the matter

[goju]

Considering that BJJ was designed for use with a GI, to compare it with catch wrestling is silly to begin with.
Matter of fact, taking into account that BJJ was designed for Gi work, the fact that it adapted so well to submission grappling and MMA (no gi) speaks volumes for the skill of the teachers.
I don't particularly care for BJJ, it is not my cup of tea, but do deny the effectiveness of it and how it revoltionized MA is just silly.
Fact: BJJ works, period.

agreed i feel the same way

certain people just think if you question the gracies at all you think bbj is a joke

no im just not a nut rider lol:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rickson did not want to "tarnish" his "perfect" record. At 50 years old he did not want to fight Sak THAT bad! It is ego (common problem with the Gracie clan), nothing more, nothing less.

As for CACC having something special...nothing. All grapplers are going to "catch" any sub they can. That is nothing special to CACC.

As to why we do not see more CACC... I think you nailed it on the head... VERY VERY few teaching it! Not at all popular over here in the US. Jake Shannon is offering stuff if you are rich and can sift through the marketing scheme BS. Few others though.

Again why we do not see more of a specific style has little to do with style, and most to do with coaching. BJJ has more popularity, so more people training, so more people coaching, so better percentages of those coaching who are coaching WELL.
nothing to do with style. Great article by Kris Istakevich here (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/10/modern-catch-as-catch-can-wrestling.html)!

***HE WASN'T 50 at the time. Sak beat Royce in 2000.

[goju]

i heard some sambo guy kicked ricksons ass any on hear of that?

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's unfortunate that some people want to take such heavy shots at Rickson Gracie on this thread. What I said about his refusal to get in the ring with Sakuraba was just stating the obvious - but that "obvious" doesn't change the fact that Rickson was/is an incredible grappler. Period.

And BJJ is an awesome grappling system.

As much as I personally am a catch wrestling fan, I really don't want to turn this into a Catch vs. BJJ thread.

Comparing and contrasting the strengths and weaknesses (and overlapping) of both systems is a good thing - and as Sakuraba has proven - whether you're primarily a catch wrestler or primarily a BJJ player, if you can use some (or a lot) of both systems - because you understand both systems - then you're way ahead of the game.

And ditto my remarks concerning the anti-BJJ/Rickson posts with those posts that may try to belittle the extensive (and highly effective) grappling system that catch wrestling actually is.

That's unfortunate also. Both systems really work. Period.

[Frost]

i heard some sambo guy kicked ricksons ass any on hear of that?


One of the Tripp brothers threw him for an ippon i believe, rickson locked in an arm bar as soon as the fight hit the ground but the rules stated a perfexct throw won the event

[Frost]

no offense taken. Rickson is a amazing grappler, but that doesn't mean he doesn't lose. Maybe you may be able to convince me to tell you in person some of the stories I hear.. but not on the internet. If you were to ask those people they would just laugh at you anyway. Allot of things happen without the public view. Both people are top notch BJJ fighters. One of them was already a well respected black belt..

I don't know why anyone would find this so hard to believe, unless you think he is "perfect".. or is a god. Hey if thats what you feel, get ready for a allot of personal issues in your life.


Nope don't think he is a god or perfect I find it so hard to believe because every other day a thread pops up asking if he is real or a fake, and so far over all these years of Rickson threads no one has posted of him getting beaten, let alone badly in a sparring match, and considering everyone likes to take shots at him and he has had a bulleye on him for years this is saying something. Eddie Bravo made a career out of beating Royler, can you imagine what someone would make if they schooled Rickson on the mat… they would be set for life.

I someone did make him look bad on the mat the story would be out there by now... too many people that come from camps that openly dislike that side of the Gracie’s (Carlson’s team, BTT, ATT etc) have taken privates with him and admitted how good he is, if someone had beaten him badly it would have gotten out there by now

[Frost]

helio gracie THE BIG CHEESE OF ALL CHEESES IN BRAZILLIAN JUJITSU said himself rickson taps out his white belts and counts that as one of his great victories lol

ill take helios word over anyones on the matter

Show me where Helio said Rickson is not a great grappler or a good fighter, then we can have a discussion.

Fact is he was the Gracie champion for over a decade with his fathers blessing, another fact is Helio didn't like him not fighting Sak straight away after all the others were beaten (Rickson by then was a pro fighter looking for the best pay day and he got it, no one has has a pay day close to what he got in 2000)

When you have blackbelts and pro fighters from teams that openly hate rickson and his side of the family admitting to being schooled by him, that means something.

[goju]

Show me where Helio said Rickson is not a great grappler or a good fighter, then we can have a discussion.

Fact is he was the Gracie champion for over a decade with his fathers blessing, another fact is Helio didn't like him not fighting Sak straight away after all the others were beaten (Rickson by then was a pro fighter looking for the best pay day and he got it, no one has has a pay day close to what he got in 2000)

When you have blackbelts and pro fighters from teams that openly hate rickson and his side of the family admitting to being schooled by him, that means something.

the man chokes out his white belts and counts that as a fight

why does this bring to mind kramer beating up children in a karate dojo on seinfeld:D

[Frost]

the man chokes out his white belts and counts that as a fight

why does this bring to mind kramer beating up children in a karate dojo on seinfeld:D

the man in the 70's and 80's won every BJJ and judo match he had by submission, (and he competed alot).

That takes some doing

I don't understand why you hate on him, he was a great grappler in his time and won a few MMA matches and made a lot of money in Japan, and when asked gives his opinion on fighters just like we all do, the difference is people actually listen print what he says and take notice of it, and what he does is no different from any older sports person, they all say things were harder in their day and the current sports guys aren't as good, so what?

[Vajramusti]

I have seen many of Rickson and Sakuraba's matches. Both are superb at what they do.I admire both of them and see no need of any put downs of either directly or indirectly or comparatively..

I don't do bjj or catch. I enjoy what I do but admire top quality skills when I see it.

Rickson showed amazing timing and flexibility when he was picked up and about to be slammed to the ground- he did a complete turn on the other guy in mid air and ended up on top.

Sakuraba is also superb. I have been around top quality Indian pit wrestling(in India) and can appreciate catch.

Rickson's trainig routine included yoga and Gotch and Inoki's training included some things that pahlwan's do.

But on a given day- things can happen- didn't Royce edge Sakuraba on points in their second match?

joy chaudhuri

[monji112000]

Nope don't think he is a god or perfect I find it so hard to believe because every other day a thread pops up asking if he is real or a fake, and so far over all these years of Rickson threads no one has posted of him getting beaten, let alone badly in a sparring match, and considering everyone likes to take shots at him and he has had a bulleye on him for years this is saying something. Eddie Bravo made a career out of beating Royler, can you imagine what someone would make if they schooled Rickson on the mat… they would be set for life.

I someone did make him look bad on the mat the story would be out there by now... too many people that come from camps that openly dislike that side of the Gracie’s (Carlson’s team, BTT, ATT etc) have taken privates with him and admitted how good he is, if someone had beaten him badly it would have gotten out there by now

everyone taps, nobody alive that has gone from white to black, and then teachers goes without tapping to someone. The idea that you seem to think that Rickson is somehow void of this is very amusing. Everyone respects and looks up to Rickson. Nobody said is isn't good. How do you know that it wasn't Rickson tapping someone 10-15 times and the other person only getting one ? Just because it didn't happen publicly doesn't mean it never happened. Allot of things happened when people weren't looking. Maybe its out there, just not that big of a deal for most people in brazil.. how would I know. after all its not really so shocking.. Top guys look stupid all the time by other top guys.

sounds like someone is sipping the cool-aid too much.

[Frost]

everyone taps, nobody alive that has gone from white to black, and then teachers goes without tapping to someone. The idea that you seem to think that Rickson is somehow void of this is very amusing. Everyone respects and looks up to Rickson. Nobody said is isn't good. How do you know that it wasn't Rickson tapping someone 10-15 times and the other person only getting one ? Just because it didn't happen publicly doesn't mean it never happened. Allot of things happened when people weren't looking. Maybe its out there, just not that big of a deal for most people in brazil.. how would I know. after all its not really so shocking.. Top guys look stupid all the time by other top guys.

sounds like someone is sipping the cool-aid too much.

where did i say he had never been tapped? I pointed out in this thread where he had lost in competition to Ron Tripp, and i am sure he has also been tapped in training, however you said you knew people that had humbled him and made him look look real bad, (your words not mine) and that is a lot differnt than simply tapping them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've already stated that I believe there's way too much Rickson bashing going on here; and no, there's no evidence that someone tapped him behind closed doors somewhere. The guy is a great grappler, there's just no way around it.

But the other side to the coin is this: He's done waaay too much talking about the mma world for a guy who only had what? 7-8-9 fights? And all of them against tomato cans?! He and Rorian Gracie are very easy to dislike, quite frankly, and for a number of reasons. On the other hand Gracie's like Carlson (RIP) and Renzo are so much easier to root for and admire.

Because they never had a giant chip on their shoulders. And they were always willing to crosstrain, unlike the Helio side of the family that probably still believes that GJJ is an unbeatable fighting system, and they try their hardest never to acknowledge a loss - even when a loss occurs.

Another reason why Kazushi Sakuraba is so admired and respected, btw. Which is another thing that should be obvious. The guy was always humble, would fight anybody, (including guys who outweighed him by 20-30-40 lbs.) - and he never made any excuses for a loss. I only wish he would stop fighting before he gets hurt, because his body clearly can't function at a high level anymore.

[monji112000]

where did i say he had never been tapped? I pointed out in this thread where he had lost in competition to Ron Tripp, and i am sure he has also been tapped in training, however you said you knew people that had humbled him and made him look look real bad, (your words not mine) and that is a lot differnt than simply tapping them.

Every time you tap you are humbled, that the amazing thing about the sport. For Rickson tapping to anyone at any time is a big deal. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqmHrFtFfEY&feature=related

[goju]

the man in the 70's and 80's won every BJJ and judo match he had by submission, (and he competed alot).

That takes some doing

I don't understand why you hate on him, he was a great grappler in his time and won a few MMA matches and made a lot of money in Japan, and when asked gives his opinion on fighters just like we all do, the difference is people actually listen print what he says and take notice of it, and what he does is no different from any older sports person, they all say things were harder in their day and the current sports guys aren't as good, so what?

i dont hate him i just think he is an egomaniacal crack pot the minute anyone talks about their 400+ fight record and talks about who he could take out but has never backed it up it tend to get dismissed in my book but hey im kooky that way i tend not to have respect for liars

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, we'll take note of that, goju. :rolleyes:

[Three Harmonies]

Sifu Joy, how have you been? Well I hope.
Someday I would love to hear more about the Indian Pit Wrestling you mentioned.
I wrote a little bit about it here on my blog (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/09/forgotten-legacies-indian-wrestling.html)
Cheers,
Jake Burroughs
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;967848]Sifu Joy, how have you been? Well I hope.
Someday I would love to hear more about the Indian Pit Wrestling you mentioned.
I wrote a little bit about it here on my blog (http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/2009/09/forgotten-legacies-indian-wrestling.html)
Cheers,
Jake Burroughs
________________________
Hi Jake -good to hear from you- I am doing fine- just got through teaching a class. You are in a part of the country that I love-have worked in the Northwest ages ago. That is a nice piece that you wrote on kusthi. I actually met Gama once when he was past his prime and retired and before the partitioning of india in 1947 when Gama moved to the Pakistani side of the Punjab and I was about ten when I met him in 1943....
he had come to Calcutta for a visit. One of his financial sponsors at one time was a Bengali. There was a very good akhada/akhara- wrestling pit near my house-sadly now gone. I used to hang around there often and saw the whole training regimen of the pahlwans. The decline of financial sponsorship and imitating the west with trying to adapt to Olympic wrestling on mats rather than pits contributed to the decline of old style kusthi though it still exits here and there..
The pahlwans were immensely strong, well balanced , fast and very well conditioned. Gotch wrongly called the squats- Hindu squats.The baithaks were Indian squats both Hindus & Muslim wrestlers used them. The dunds- were off shoots of the dynamic yoga suryanamaskar stretches.
Indian wrestling is very old and is there in the Epics like the Mahabharata.
The coming of the Mongols(Moghuls- in India) added more "hooking" to kusthi.The Mongols changed and influenced Chinese wrestling and all the way through India across to Turkey.
I used to get the family's milk from the milkmen in my neighborhood-they were all wrestlers. They squated squeezing a bucket each between their legs as they milked the water buffaloes.
I could tell you much more about the training routines with various clubs and stones-but there are limits to forum posts. The mudgars and maces and clubs were more varied than the persian mils in their own zorkhaneh.

joy chaudhuri

[Yung Apprentice]

But some good questions have been raised. Why have all the other Japanese pro wrestlers done so poorly in mma? Even if we include Josh Barnett (which we should do)...why only two quality catch wrestlers?

Actually there were three, because imo we have to include Erik Paulson, who was an amazing fighter. He was a hybrid grappler to be sure - but highly influenced by catch. And as I said on the first post, Sak was also skilled in judo/jiu jitsu and used it along with cacc.


You forgot the Shamrocks. Ken was trained by Funaki and Gotch, and Ken in turn trained Frank. You could put any of their students down as well, like Guy Mezger, or Vernon White and of course any of their students.

And why isn't Funaki considered successful? Yes, Sakuraba is the better of the two, but Funaki is a legend in his own right. Any man boasting a career with wins over Frank and Ken Shamrock, Guy Mezger and Bas Rutten has got to be a legend. Thats four current of future hall of famers right there. Not to mention wins over decent opponents like Vernon White, Jason Delucia, and Yuki Kondo.

I think the reason there isn't more "successful" catch wrestlers, is because there are less of an abundance of gyms as opposed to BJJ or Judo or wrestling.

[Frost]

Every time you tap you are humbled, that the amazing thing about the sport. For Rickson tapping to anyone at any time is a big deal. ;)



Way to backtrack:rolleyes:

[Frost]

I've already stated that I believe there's way too much Rickson bashing going on here; and no, there's no evidence that someone tapped him behind closed doors somewhere. The guy is a great grappler, there's just no way around it.

But the other side to the coin is this: He's done waaay too much talking about the mma world for a guy who only had what? 7-8-9 fights? And all of them against tomato cans?! He and Rorian Gracie are very easy to dislike, quite frankly, and for a number of reasons. On the other hand Gracie's like Carlson (RIP) and Renzo are so much easier to root for and admire.

Because they never had a giant chip on their shoulders. And they were always willing to crosstrain, unlike the Helio side of the family that probably still believes that GJJ is an unbeatable fighting system, and they try their hardest never to acknowledge a loss - even when a loss occurs.

Another reason why Kazushi Sakuraba is so admired and respected, btw. Which is another thing that should be obvious. The guy was always humble, would fight anybody, (including guys who outweighed him by 20-30-40 lbs.) - and he never made any excuses for a loss. I only wish he would stop fighting before he gets hurt, because his body clearly can't function at a high level anymore.

Victor makes some great points about Sak, I could never believe the way pride made him fight bigger and bigger guys over and over its like they wanted him to get hurt and lose it was stupid.

[monji112000]

Way to backtrack:rolleyes:

How am I backtracking.. its the truth. :rolleyes:

[Three Harmonies]

Joy,
Fascinating! I am surprised more groundwork did not creep into the Chinese arts. I could listen to stories of the old school wrestlers all day! Do you have "The Physical Body" DVD?

Jake

[Ultimatewingchun]

You forgot the Shamrocks. Ken was trained by Funaki and Gotch, and Ken in turn trained Frank. You could put any of their students down as well, like Guy Mezger, or Vernon White and of course any of their students.

And why isn't Funaki considered successful? Yes, Sakuraba is the better of the two, but Funaki is a legend in his own right. Any man boasting a career with wins over Frank and Ken Shamrock, Guy Mezger and Bas Rutten has got to be a legend. Thats four current of future hall of famers right there. Not to mention wins over decent opponents like Vernon White, Jason Delucia, and Yuki Kondo.

I think the reason there isn't more "successful" catch wrestlers, is because there are less of an abundance of gyms as opposed to BJJ or Judo or wrestling.

***Vernon White is 100% jiu jitsu, as far as I know. You're right about Funaki, I forgot about him. As for Ken and Frank Shamrock go, Ken never trained with Karl Gotch to my knowledge. Never. Did he learn some catch from somewhere? Yeah. How good was he at it? Not very. Take the steroids away from Ken Shamrock, and imo he was would have been a nobody. Frank was a roider too, I believe, but more talented than Ken - although Frank's knowledge of catch was also pretty spotty.

[Dragonzbane76]

***Vernon White is 100% jiu jitsu, as far as I know.

huh.. i always thought of him as a stand up striker sort...eh... you learn something new every day..:)

was he doing JJ before he was in K-1?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I was talking about his grappling. Watch his fight with Sakuraba.

[lkfmdc]

The people who trained directly with Gotch are

Antonio Inoki, Fujiwara, Takada, Maeda, Sayama

I beleive that Suzuki and Funaki BRIEFLY trained with him but most of their training came from Maeda actually

The Shamrocks learned from Funaki and Suzuki

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe Dave Ross has got it right.

[lkfmdc]

I believe Dave Ross has got it right.

Antonio Inoki brought Gotch to Japan, they "wrestled" (stiff fake stuff) in Japan

Fujiwara, Maeda, Sayama and Takada were the original stars of the UWF, which was an attempt to keep "strong style" wrestling (as opposed to the WWE scripted soap opera crap) alive with Gotch behind it all the way

Suzuki still has a picture of Gotch in his personal gym and bows to it before and after practices, and he and Funaki like to associate themselves for obvious reasons with Gotch. But they were both "young boys" under Maeda and in fact Maeda is the one who bought their contracts with NJPW and brought them over to UWF

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;967916]Joy,
Fascinating! I am surprised more groundwork did not creep into the Chinese arts. I could listen to stories of the old school wrestlers all day! Do you have "The Physical Body" DVD?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many worked on not being taken down or being static-most likely. I have that DVD and I have Alter's (sp?) book- may have written a book review for it some moons ago.
Thanks for your note.
joy chaudhuri

[lkfmdc]

PS: the "stories" on each direct Gotch student

Antonio Inoki: wasn't a wrestler, was just in the pro wrestling as a business. Used Gotch to set up his organization, give it legitimacy, was very good to Gotch, but wasn't interested in learning the real stuff

Fujiwara: Had the least natural talent but the most dedication and work ethic. Kept detailed notes on everything Gotch taught and said: used to create "super technique" the book

Sayama: Always wanted to do a more MMA, mixing the wrestling with kicking, knees, etc... Gotch didn't like this flavor

Maeda: Bad temper and personality made him impossible to get along with, he was fired from every promotion except the one he owned (RINGS)

Takada: supposedly had the most natural talent but was lazy. When gotch was around to make him work, he was supposed to be the best of the direct students. After Gotch left Japan and Takada got his own promotion (UWFi) he didn't really train at all anymore

PS #2: supposedly after UFC 1 Funaki started trying to do a lot of guard and incorporated it into PANCRASE. When Gotch saw them going to their backs he supposedly got very angry and Funaki (this is a RUMOR.. )

[Yung Apprentice]

My bad, but I have seen conflicting stories about Shamrock training with Gotch, I shoulda verified it but can't. But my point still stands, he was trained by Funaki and Susuki. He learned his submissions from catch wrestlers, he says it his book the lion's den. (I just dusted it off to look at it, and it never says anything about training with Gotch)