The heavybager vs. The formser

[TAO YIN]

Unsolved Mathematical Fighting Question....

James has a heavy bag that he beats every day, as hard as he can, over and over again. Jack has a practical form that he plays every day as hard as he can, over and over again. They both train equally time wise, agression wise, and all that other wise. With regards to what they are doing in their training, both have good structure, equally. Neither men have ever had a fight. Who wins and why?

:D

[solo1]

Forms, He has trained to move, trained to elude, trained his muscles to move without thinking. Forms and technique will beat brute force.

[MasterKiller]

Forms, He has trained to move, trained to elude, trained his muscles to move without thinking. Forms and technique will beat brute force.

The guy hitting the bag has learned to move, to elude, and trained his muscles to move without thinking as well. He also gets the benefit of using the resistance of the bag to correct his alignment, posture, and root when throwing and landing strikes full power, not to mention his center of balance will be properly aligned when throwing full-power strikes. His sense of range will be better. And his fists/shins will be more properly conditioned to hit someone hard without hurting/breaking.

[Frost]

The guy hitting the bag has learned to move, to elude, and trained his muscles to move without thinking as well. He also gets the benefit of using the resistance of the bag to correct his alignment, posture, and root when throwing and landing strikes full power, not to mention his center of balance will be properly aligned when throwing full-power strikes. His sense of range will be better. And his fists/shins will be more properly conditioned to hit someone hard without hurting/breaking.

Umm what he said, its not rocket science

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Forms, He has trained to move, trained to elude, trained his muscles to move without thinking. Forms and technique will beat brute force.

Play fighting with your imaginary friend will not produce results. Also, since when is working the heavy bag brute force.:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even the ancient hit things, whether it was trees, posts, or sand bags.
You will never understand structure and alignment wtihout hitting, not to mention that the endurance needed for HB work is far more than for forms.
Also, WTF is a "practical form" anyways?

[Dragonzbane76]

Forms, He has trained to move, trained to elude, trained his muscles to move without thinking. Forms and technique will beat brute force.

And a person doing bag work does not???

You do not gain technique from doing bag work??

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

Reading that makes me think that Tao Yin doesn't do his bag rounds regularly.

lol.

5 minutes of nothing but jabs

5 minutes of jab/cross combo

5 minutes of jab/cross/hook combo

5 minutes of hook/ uppercut (or canon fist)

try it and see what kind of understanding you get form it.

even just the once. :)

[Lucas]

i vote bag hitter.

i practice both personally. light on forms though

but i can tell you now that if those guys dont spar regularly, ill beat them both.

:D

[TAO YIN]

Kung Lek,

Nah, I do both regularly, with all the other... Is everyday, give or take an injury here or there, enough? :confused:

You are right though. A person will wear themselves out on a bag long before they will a form. My meaning was, both are these guys are equal. One hits a bag. The other hits the air. Both have never fought. Same of everything else...

Sanjuro,

A practical form is a practical form. I'm thinking something simple like Jik bo from Bak Mei. Jab, Cross, Jab, Cross...That sort of thing. Something that has the basics of a fight in it.

Anyways, back to the answer?:D

[Lucas]

so, how about we change the scenario a bit.

apply that same situation to a western boxer.

one guy only shadow boxes, the other guy works the heavy bag. neither have fought, but both use mit drills as well.

who wins?

[bawang]

u guys sound like hitting bags is some sort of super duper modern elite western training

[Lucas]

u guys sound like hitting bags is some sort of super duper modern elite western training

nah. hitting a bag, or any training target, is world wide.

but hitting a bag, any bag, is better than just hitting air all the time. if someone ONLY hits air, they will never learn how to really hit.

i just hang the bodies of my fallen enemies and hit those....till it starts to stink.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bag hitting is universal
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/jnocker.jpg

[MasterKiller]

so, how about we change the scenario a bit.

apply that same situation to a western boxer.

one guy only shadow boxes, the other guy works the heavy bag. neither have fought, but both use mit drills as well.

who wins?

The guy who hits the bag, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

[TAO YIN]

I should have made it one guy hitting a heavy bag and one guying hitting a hanging wooden dummy...All else equal...That would be a better question...:confused:

[Lucas]

well a wooden dummy routine and a floor routine are pretty different.

at that point i would say it depends on whos feeling better that day, and who ever gets luckier.

i will say however the guy hitting the heavy/sand bag is going to be comfortable with a higher amount of force, as he gets to drill at full force for portions of his training. the wooden dummy guy wont be as familiar with issuing his full force, yet he will be more comfortable with a different type of resistance, ie; the limbs of the dummy.

the conditioning is different, however, either guy without sparring/fight experience is not going to get the job done.

it would be an interesting event to see thats for sure.

those guys would have little idea how to handle the actual confrontation of another violent human being.

[uki]

train forms around heavy bag while using it... duh. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/200138864-001.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F60B352208887077AEA0C85528334C4ED4B40B3E875A785D

[uki]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/200138864-001.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F60B352208887077AEA0C85528334C4ED4B40B3E875A785D now thats what i am talking about - no pansy be'otches allowed. :D

[Lucas]

train forms around heavy bag while using it... duh. :p

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Lucas]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/200138864-001.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F60B352208887077AEA0C85528334C4ED4B40B3E875A785D

me no see picture, red X

[uki]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!LOL... that simple differential equation just popped into the mathmetical question like a comet coming out from behind the sun. :)

[David Jamieson]

Kungfu is progressive.

1. do it in the air

2. do it against a device

3. do it with a partner

4. do it free style


If all you are doing is forms, you are not actually training the entire progressive system of kungfu.

someone is holding out on you if you are not using technique against resistant surfaces, devices or opponents.

seriously. and truly.

real kungfu is more than moving quickly in choreographed patterns. when i say kungfu, i am using the meaning of the traditional martial arts of china.

so many people don't even do wooden man training. lol and i've witnessed people deliberately "touching" the thing and even the ip bags.

Once someone is introduced to force feedback, they acquire a much greater understanding of their own strength, ability to project force and they also understand just how ok or not ok their structure is.

with forms, you have to be corrected externally because you don't receive the feedback that tells you your structure is wrong. when you work on striking at devices and surfaces, you get feedback that helps you to self correct both for increasing power and for making better your structure.

:)

[uki]

Kungfu is progressive.

1. do it in the air

2. do it against a device

3. do it with a partner

4. do it free style


If all you are doing is forms, you are not actually training the entire progressive system of kungfu.

someone is holding out on you if you are not using technique against resistant surfaces, devices or opponents.

seriously. and truly.

real kungfu is more than moving quickly in choreographed patterns. when i say kungfu, i am using the meaning of the traditional martial arts of china.

so many people don't even do wooden man training. lol and i've witnessed people deliberately "touching" the thing and even the ip bags.

Once someone is introduced to force feedback, they acquire a much greater understanding of their own strength, ability to project force and they also understand just how ok or not ok their structure is.

with forms, you have to be corrected externally because you don't receive the feedback that tells you your structure is wrong. when you work on striking at devices and surfaces, you get feedback that helps you to self correct both for increasing power and for making better your structure.great advice david, although i am sure anyone with half a neuron functioning should have been able to figure that out all by their wee-little-selves. :p

[goju]

this is a dumb question:D

both spend their time attacking something that doesnt move or hit back so neither one has an advantage

[David Jamieson]

this is a dumb question:D

both spend their time attacking something that doesnt move or hit back so neither one has an advantage

it's a hypothetical question.

in the progressive model of development, force feedback teaches you more than air.

heavy bag training also teaches you simple ranging, good structure, power generation, stepping and grounding and plenty of other things even with the most simple techs.

there are no dumb questions. :) well ok, there are some dumb questions, but I wouldn't put this as dumb, I'd put it as an opportunity to learn some of the stuff tat other people already know. :)

[goju]

heavy bag training also teaches you simple ranging, good structure, power generation, stepping and grounding and plenty of other things even with the most simple techs.

and that can all go out the window the minute a live person is moving and punches or kicks you hard:D

[YouKnowWho]

- The form guy may be able to start a fight but he may not be able to finish it.
- The heavy bag guy will have better chance to finish that fight - knock out his opponent.

[uki]

so who's to say that the form guy can't simply evade and shuffle around the bag guy because of his well trained footwork?? if the bag guy can't hit the form guy, he won't win and then after he gets frustrated and tired out, the form guy can either A: laugh or B: take advantage of the baggers exhaustion... and lets not have any lame attempts to compare footwork to bag work when it comes to endurance - it's obvious the forms guy can out pace a stationary striker... this is why i train both aspects of this "unsolved" mathmetical equation.

some of you guys have an extreme case of tunnel vision...

[bawang]

punching sandbag is a important traditional kung fu training

[uki]

punching sandbag is a important traditional kung fu trainingso is speak with choppy english. :D

[bawang]

no you lie my english is very good
racist

i poop on you

[uki]

racistthe first one to cry is usually the loudest one to holler. :)

[bawang]

racist 30 year old man who has a crappy job and smells bad and pretends to know kung fu on a internet website but is empty inside and lives near a swamp
LOL!

[uki]

swampactually it's a bog - there's a big difference. :)

[bawang]

hi



//////

[CFT]

so who's to say that the form guy can't simply evade and shuffle around the bag guy because of his well trained footwork?? if the bag guy can't hit the form guy, he won't win and then after he gets frustrated and tired out, the form guy can either A: laugh or B: take advantage of the baggers exhaustion... and lets not have any lame attempts to compare footwork to bag work when it comes to endurance - it's obvious the forms guy can out pace a stationary striker... this is why i train both aspects of this "unsolved" mathmetical equation.LMAO!

Stationary striker? Is that how you train on the bag? No wonder!
Exhaustion? The bag guy will be working his cardio on the bag. I very much doubt a typical form will provide the same type of cardiovascular workout.

Very weak arguments for forms.

[uki]

Very weak arguments for forms.they weren't arguments, they were oppositional points of view... and no, thats not how i work a heavybag - i don't even have one... i use a utility pole. :D

[Dragonzbane76]

if the bag guy can't hit the form guy, he won't win and then after he gets frustrated and tired out, the form guy can either A: laugh or B: take advantage of the baggers exhaustion... and lets not have any lame attempts to compare footwork to bag work when it comes to endurance - it's obvious the forms guy can out pace a stationary striker... this is why i train both aspects of this "unsolved" mathmetical equation.

haha I'm seeing a pattern here. Starting to understand Uki in a sense. the above statement, he really doesn't believe, he just spits it out there because he knows that everyone will be like " hey damit that's not right" and he'll be the center of attention. A troll. LARPING.

But again he doesn't troll all the time, just a good portion of it. Like a fisherman he casts his line and waits to see who will bite. :p

[uki]

Like a fisherman he casts his line and waits to see who will bite.fishing is a great meditation. :D

[CFT]

they weren't arguments, they were oppositional points of view... and no, thats not how i work a heavybag - i don't even have one... i use a utility pole. :DYou're setting up strawman arguments for bag work.

Pole work is good. Mike Pekor has a good demo for Taiji post/pole drills; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYJwKJtD_WA

But you don't have to just stand still do you?

[TAO YIN]

Cool,

I was gonna say the bag guy. Simply because a person can do most anything out of a form on a bag, including practicing footwork too. Assuming they both had equal cardio, I still think that hitting the bag produces a "different" kind of cardio...

Off topic, but how much of winning against a skilled opponent has to do with having better cardio?

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is a dumb question:D

both spend their time attacking something that doesnt move or hit back so neither one has an advantage

Bags hit back.

[David Jamieson]

Cool,

I was gonna say the bag guy. Simply because a person can do most anything out of a form on a bag, including practicing footwork too. Assuming they both had equal cardio, I still think that hitting the bag produces a "different" kind of cardio...

Off topic, but how much of winning against a skilled opponent has to do with having better cardio?

:)


endurance.

if you gas, you lose.

cardio is hugely important and don't let any chain smoking poser tell you different. :)

[TAO YIN]

Seriously, how would you rate it? I should make another thread for that, but...

80%?

Um, I'll make up another thread later.

[Dragonzbane76]

forms give a false sense of contact. Bag work you get the impact and the cardio is much more intense than hitting "air".

You are left to be more imaginative as well on the bag. In a form you are locked into a set and must perform it like given. (unless you are making your own.) On a bag you have an opportunity to express yourself freely and link what ever combo's your mind can imagine.

IMO if you truly want to learn fighting... sparr a resistant opponent.

[David Jamieson]

Seriously, how would you rate it? I should make another thread for that, but...

80%?

Um, I'll make up another thread later.

the man who can walk further, will go further.

[sanjuro_ronin]

forms give a false sense of contact. Bag work you get the impact and the cardio is much more intense than hitting "air".

You are left to be more imaginative as well on the bag. In a form you are locked into a set and must perform it like given. (unless you are making your own.) On a bag you have an opportunity to express yourself freely and link what ever combo's your mind can imagine.

IMO if you truly want to learn fighting... sparr a resistant opponent.

To expand on this:
You can "american kenpo" the air, you can't do that with any decent power on a HB, or a resisting opponent.
Not unless you are into prissy slapping.

[uki]

forms give a false sense of contact. Bag work you get the impact and the cardio is much more intense than hitting "air".forms do not always revolve around hitting air... interesting that you seem to believe that all forms are teaching strikes by hitting air.


You are left to be more imaginative as well on the bag. In a form you are locked into a set and must perform it like given. (unless you are making your own.) On a bag you have an opportunity to express yourself freely and link what ever combo's your mind can imagine. again i marvel that doing forms implies lack of imagination and expression...


IMO if you truly want to learn fighting... sparr a resistant opponent.i'll spar when they come around, but form work and conditioning has been working just fine so far. :D

[Dragonzbane76]

forms do not always revolve around hitting air... interesting that you seem to believe that all forms are teaching strikes by hitting air.

please expand on this? I'm quit interested to hear this.
so are you refering to 2 man fight sets? If you have that other person just go ahead and spar and stop wasting your time.


again i marvel that doing forms implies lack of imagination and expression

well considering your doing someone else's imaginative work... yeah...


i'll spar when they come around, but form work and conditioning has been working just fine so far.

grats...I see your small bubble from the distance... have fun with that.

[bawang]

traditional chinese kung fu
lifting a 350 pound stone block
hitting tree
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVyRJ7IgrSY

the wooden dummy guy wont be as familiar with issuing his full force
orly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kScsmqrisSw

[sanjuro_ronin]

What ???
Strength and conditioning in TCMA ???
That's crazy talk !!

[David Jamieson]

ok, i have my doubts that a concrete block that size weighs 350, but the shoulder pressing and weight lifting, striking of devices and so on is all part of traditional chinese martial arts.

there is just a lot of bs costume wearing leaping fairyness in a lot of how traditional martial arts are presented.

there's plenty of good stuff too. always has been , always will be.

put it in sequins and do it to music though. That's an american thing. lol

[bawang]

im just thinking its lame to compare your self to people who do kung fu for a hobby and dance forms with new age background music, and think because you punch bags you are hardcore
its easy to make fun of those types of people and feel good about yourself but you will be fooling yourself

you guys should be glad you know forms. its boring when your teacher says you suck and tell me to practice 5 techniques for 2 years lolol
its been 6 years and i still havent learnd a form yet :( very sad face
can someone teach me on internet a form

[Lucas]

orly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kScsmqrisSw

didnt watch your vid, im at work, but on average, yes. go hit a piece of hard wood as hard as you possibly can with your bare knuckles, just once, and get back to me. remember, FULL FORCE.

have fun breaking your hand.

[David Jamieson]

im just thinking its lame to compare your self to people who do kung fu for a hobby and dance forms with new age background music, and think because you punch bags you are hardcore
its easy to make fun of those types of people and feel good about yourself but you will be fooling yourself

you guys should be glad you know forms. its boring when your teacher says you suck and tell me to practice 5 techniques for 2 years lolol
its been 6 years and i still havent learnd a form yet :( very sad face
can someone teach me on internet a form

no internet forms, no, but i could teach you a form or two. :-)

only in person.

[bawang]

dude no thx what if u r internet molester
im scare

[Lucas]

you should be scare

he internet molested me yesterday....:(

[uki]

please expand on this? I'm quit interested to hear this. trapping and sticking... suffocation of striking ability.

so are you refering to 2 man fight sets? nope...

If you have that other person just go ahead and spar and stop wasting your time. time is an invented concept... you cannot waste what does not exist. :)


well considering your doing someone else's imaginative work... yeah... free-form/following your intention is not following someone else's imaginative work.


grats...I see your small bubble from the distance... have fun with that.if you see my bubble then come on by and spar with me. :D

[Lucas]

im pretty sure the majority of us here understand that peole dont practice like the hyphothetical question.

i do think though that some people have a scewed idea of what form training is.

perhaps they never got instruction that included well planned form training in the program. perhaps they never have delved into that aspect of martial arts.

no, forms wont make you an elite deadly fighter.

simply doing a weak ass series of movements in the air is NOT the only type of form training.......most think this is how it works, and unfortunately they are wrong. its not their fault though. there are many, many types of forms. with many many types of intent in development.

anyhow, i still stand by my answer, the guy that hits things will probably beat the guy that doesnt.

though one of the things i notice on this forum on a regular basis is that many people have a limited/mis informed idea about forms training and all that it encompasses.

im not a huge forms guy. i have a couple that i maintain. in the past i have learned a lot of forms, which i dropped and kept what i wanted.

i like weights, ( i need to lift because my job is at a desk), i like bags, i like forms, i like sparring, i like weapons, i like theory, i like reading, i like watching vid...etc.

all of these things i like because each is a tool that i personally know benefits me, because i can measure myself and see my progress/road blocks, and ive seen how i have overcome these, and i know at what times ive had personal revelations regarding martial arts...

and guess what....ive had revelations during each of these activites,

that places the value for me...

[uki]

forms are an avenue of expression... like doodling on the paper while talking on the phone - it's not a masterpiece, but it has definition and character.

[Lucas]

its funny also because ive been involved with a few women over the years who were dancers. (dancers focking rule :D) well, ive never been into dancing, but i have seen the personal expression, EVEN THROUGH A ROUTINE DANCE, that has set footwork patterns. watching a beautiful woman dance was the first time i understood the artistic aspect of my form.

a small part of this element of life is played out through my form training.

it may be a set series of movements, but no one does it like i do. you cant. its impossible.

forms are not all about fighting. yes they contain material is drilled for fighting. but there is a whole lot more to life than fighting.

remember, cma is a way of life.... and for me, fighting is not a way of life, but a part of that journey.

[uki]

its funny also because ive been involved with a few women over the years who were dancers. (dancers focking rule :D) well, ive never been into dancing, but i have seen the personal expression, EVEN THROUGH A ROUTINE DANCE, that has set footwork patterns. watching a beautiful woman dance was the first time i understood the artistic aspect of my form.

a small part of this element of life is played out through my form training.

it may be a set series of movements, but no one does it like i do. you cant. its impossible.

forms are not all about fighting. yes they contain material is drilled for fighting. but there is a whole lot more to life than fighting.

remember, cma is a way of life.... and for me, fighting is not a way of life, but a part of that journey.where's the reputation system when you need it... nice post.

[sanjuro_ronin]

its funny also because ive been involved with a few women over the years who were dancers. (dancers focking rule :D) well, ive never been into dancing, but i have seen the personal expression, EVEN THROUGH A ROUTINE DANCE, that has set footwork patterns. watching a beautiful woman dance was the first time i understood the artistic aspect of my form.

a small part of this element of life is played out through my form training.

it may be a set series of movements, but no one does it like i do. you cant. its impossible.

forms are not all about fighting. yes they contain material is drilled for fighting. but there is a whole lot more to life than fighting.

remember, cma is a way of life.... and for me, fighting is not a way of life, but a part of that journey.


Be very clear, for a MA, fighting is an indepensible part of the journey.
You will never arrive anywhere without that part of the journey.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

its funny also because ive been involved with a few women over the years who were dancers. (dancers focking rule :D) well, ive never been into dancing, but i have seen the personal expression, EVEN THROUGH A ROUTINE DANCE, that has set footwork patterns. watching a beautiful woman dance was the first time i understood the artistic aspect of my form.

a small part of this element of life is played out through my form training.

it may be a set series of movements, but no one does it like i do. you cant. its impossible.

forms are not all about fighting. yes they contain material is drilled for fighting. but there is a whole lot more to life than fighting.

remember, cma is a way of life.... and for me, fighting is not a way of life, but a part of that journey.


The problem here is too many people believe that good forms/kata = good fighting. Forms can be beneficial to improve technique or to break a sweat, but that is the extent of their importance. Since we are all unique in our own ways (some more than others:D) no one will ever do a form or anything else exactly like you do.

However, the pattern is still set in forms. Blocks and strikes have a specific purpose, a dreamed up scenirio that those moves are specifically based upon. The person practicing those techniques are usually taught from the get go that these moves are counters for these moves, and so on and so forth. That sounds good in theory, but in reality it is not the case. I have never seen a fight where a TMA guy busts out moves from a form/kata that look like a Shaw Brothers movie. Generally speaking, they look how they practice. A good boxer will look like a boxer, a kickboxer will look like a kickboxer, a kung fu guy will look like a kickboxer, and a bad kung fu guy will look like a bad/sloppy kickboxer.

The reason is simple. Forms are an antiquated, flashy, set of unrealistic movements that exist simply for eye candy, either for the delusional who believe in them or the ignorant who do not know better. I find it sad that so many martial artists waste so much time on something as useless as forms when they are so many other better training options to do.

[Lucas]

Be very clear, for a MA, fighting is an indepensible part of the journey.
You will never arrive anywhere without that part of the journey.

agreed. its a required part of the journey if you make martial arts a part of your life.

at least to one degree or another. some will fight way more than others.

[TAO YIN]

Iron Eagle,

Is that how all of it is all the time? When I do a simple bil jee in the air, I realize what it's for. To jab someone in the eye and at least distract them, or more. I then train that on a bag to see how it works best for me and what aspects of my structure I need to change to get the best strike going. Then I practice it with brothers simply by turning it into a fist while realizing that I could just as easily stick my bent fingers out.

Maybe people make movements to be a lot more complicated than they really are? :confused: Then again, practicing standing arm breaks on a heavy bag is difficult...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Iron Eagle,

Is that how all of it is all the time? When I do a simple bil jee in the air, I realize what it's for. To jab someone in the eye and at least distract them, or more. I then train that on a bag to see how it works best for me and what aspects of my structure I need to change to get the best strike going. Then I practice it with brothers simply by turning it into a fist while realizing that I could just as easily stick my bent fingers out.

Maybe people make movements to be a lot more complicated than they really are? :confused: Then again, practicing standing arm breaks on a heavy bag is difficult...

If you are practicing with resistance, particulary with training partners, you are doing it right. The heavy bag does offer resistance. Forms do not. That is the point I am trying to make. If you only train forms, your training is of very limited use in regards to fighting. Also, while the uber deadly eye poke can be effective, using a small weapon (your finger) to hit a smaller target (an eye) is going to require a hell of a lot of training to make work. Good luck with that.

[Lucas]

The problem here is too many people believe that good forms/kata = good fighting. Forms can be beneficial to improve technique or to break a sweat, but that is the extent of their importance. Since we are all unique in our own ways (some more than others:D) no one will ever do a form or anything else exactly like you do.

However, the pattern is still set in forms. Blocks and strikes have a specific purpose, a dreamed up scenirio that those moves are specifically based upon. The person practicing those techniques are usually taught from the get go that these moves are counters for these moves, and so on and so forth. That sounds good in theory, but in reality it is not the case. I have never seen a fight where a TMA guy busts out moves from a form/kata that look like a Shaw Brothers movie. Generally speaking, they look how they practice. A good boxer will look like a boxer, a kickboxer will look like a kickboxer, a kung fu guy will look like a kickboxer, and a bad kung fu guy will look like a bad/sloppy kickboxer.

The reason is simple. Forms are an antiquated, flashy, set of unrealistic movements that exist simply for eye candy, either for the delusional who believe in them or the ignorant who do not know better. I find it sad that so many martial artists waste so much time on something as useless as forms when they are so many other better training options to do.

yep i see it as a two part problem. people putting to much faith in the routines. likewise people outright dimissing many of these routines, based on sheer ignorance. some forms are very very very simple and basic and work on a specific target area of your practice. these types of forms can be developmental and conditional.

for instance, the two routines that i practice are not flashy. antiquated yes, they are old. although many of the techniques/methods/principles are still up to date. none of the postures are un natural to my body (discounting flexability requirements (shaolin), which im flexable so its not un natural to me personally) i have th old traditional versions of these 2 sets, but i also have my personal versions of these sets which incorporate other elements that are not traditional to shaolin boxing, example: western boxing, stance hight, clinch opportunity, etc.

crap have to work

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Nah, it really doesn't take that much work. It's a timing issue. It's easy to jab someone in the eye with a fist isn't it? It's a little more difficult to do with your fingers. Not much. I think what you mean to say, is that it is going to take a lot of work to do that against Fedor... I don't think that Crocop was making a strange mistake when he broke Saaps orbit. Eye sockets are a pretty normal target. Anyways, I should have just said Gwa Choy, or side kick.

I said nothing of uber. How many times I have left training with a black eye, I can't count...

[bawang]

karate has the simplest techniques ever in asian martial arts but people stil cant do it because their kata is done in a unnatural rigid way
many times people cant use even the basic blocks there is a deep problem in kung fu.

people do the form in the completely wrong motion and rhythm

[Dragonzbane76]

trapping and sticking... suffocation of striking ability.

and your practicing this with the air? how do you know it works? Someone tell you this?


time is an invented concept... you cannot waste what does not exist.

way to avoid the question.


free-form/following your intention is not following someone else's imaginative work.

changing words on me? I stated unless you are doing a form you have made up... if your making the form up as you go then yes that's creative.
If your following a set form then how is this creative? it's not, your doing the movements of someone else. A mymic. Mymicry is not creative.



if you see my bubble then come on by and spar with me.

distance is an invented concept... you cannot travel what does not exist

ah but see what i did there....:rolleyes:

but i don't like avoiding questions.
dear sir, humbling experiences can be life changing I do not think your ready yet

[xcakid]

Unsolved Mathematical Fighting Question....

James has a heavy bag that he beats every day, as hard as he can, over and over again. Jack has a practical form that he plays every day as hard as he can, over and over again. They both train equally time wise, agression wise, and all that other wise. With regards to what they are doing in their training, both have good structure, equally. Neither men have ever had a fight. Who wins and why?

:D


The forms guy. Cause I am recovering fighter transitioning to a forms guy and I carry a gun. :D

[goju]

the most important thing forms teach you is rythim grace and coordination these are very important things to use when you fight or spar or whatever

i remember even shaolin abbot shi goulin saying his best students were the oneswho were dancers or in ballet previously and its because of what i said

rhythm cordination and grace are keys to building good martial arts

[David Jamieson]

the most important thing forms teach you is rythim grace and coordination these are very important things to use when you fight or spar or whatever

i remember even shaolin abbot shi goulin saying his best students were the oneswho were dancers or in ballet previously and its because of what i said

rhythm cordination and grace are keys to building good martial arts

they are components, but in my view it would be a whole different criteria for what are key.

will to fight = #1 key

conditioning and strength = #2

structure and technique = #3

rhythm and co-ordination are developed outside of forms work such as you find in their current iteration which is quite often a convoluted mess.

some systems are hacked together and have no logical progression and others are more neatly arranged and offer the reiterative process to the practitioner to develop their forms and tech within progressively.

forms are not key to become a fighter. the structure of good form does, but strings of techniques put together are not necessary to it and can be detrimental to it in some cases.

[Lokhopkuen]

Forms and impact training are all part of the stages of training from beginner to advanced. After all let’s not forget martial arts trainings are life time pursuits & there is no end point to any level of training.

With that said in the beginning the student learns to efficiently mobilize as well as increase flexibility. When the mobility of a practitioner has been developed to an adequate level the focus should shift to exercises that develop muscular strength and endurance.

Light repetitious weight training, push ups, breathing exercises, practicing with heavy weapons, and training on long forms are some of the ways to develop strength and endurance.

Controlled practices with punching bags are good to help the practitioner feel the sensation of physical impact on a target. Although, for refined training, I personally do not recommend extensive hitting of punching bags or targets. Training with punch bags generally leads to bad bodily postures and wrong applications of muscles for beginning practitioners. It also gives a wrong perception of a real enemy to the practitioner. Punching bags and targets are better used as tools for testing or verification of ones training progress than as regular training tools.
;):D;)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Forms and impact training are all part of the stages of training from beginner to advanced. After all let’s not forget martial arts trainings are life time pursuits & there is no end point to any level of training.

With that said in the beginning the student learns to efficiently mobilize as well as increase flexibility. When the mobility of a practitioner has been developed to an adequate level the focus should shift to exercises that develop muscular strength and endurance.

Light repetitious weight training, push ups, breathing exercises, practicing with heavy weapons, and training on long forms are some of the ways to develop strength and endurance.

Controlled practices with punching bags are good to help the practitioner feel the sensation of physical impact on a target. Although, for refined training, I personally do not recommend extensive hitting of punching bags or targets. Training with punch bags generally leads to bad bodily postures and wrong applications of muscles for beginning practitioners. It also gives a wrong perception of a real enemy to the practitioner. Punching bags and targets are better used as tools for testing or verification of ones training progress than as regular training tools.
;):D;)

LOL, wow, just, wow. I tell you what would be a good experiment. Take a six month form fairy to your local boxing gym and let him go a few rounds with a six month boxer, than come back and tell me just how wrong hitting those bags and mitts has been for the beginning boxer compared to the LARPer dancing around and hitting air. I bet you would find the results quite remarkable.;)

[David Jamieson]

dude no thx what if u r internet molester
im scare

if you want me to molest your internet, you have to pay me.

:p

[David Jamieson]

when you are in a real fight, you are always hitting against something. Task specificity is important.

condition and endurance was alwasy built up before techniques and form were addressed.

striking for force feedback can just as easily correct bad posture because you want to generate more power. that's doen with correct structure ultimately.

It's easier to get bad structure from doing forms first without getting conditioning til later than the other way around.

I've tried both, and in my experience that's how it is. Not saying it's like that for everyone and not saying that the hypothetical should rule the day.

But testing is important. We do it with everything else, heck, when you send your first email, it's usually a test. :p

[Ray Pina]

I'm partial to the heavy bag. It teaches so much: timing, distancing, movement, body connectivity.

Forms trains those things. The heavy bag works them.

There's definitely a place for mechanical refinement/repetition, but I favor the way I trained it in internal, focusing on the how (how to generate power from the foot and direct it to anywhere/everywhere) and not the what. The what changes. Can you deliver your power while moving and free flowing? The bag works that.

For how long can you do it? That's a whole other thing. Try seven 5 minute rounds with a minute rest between rounds. That's not bad training. NOT JUST STANDING THERE SLUGGING AWAY LIKE A MORON. Moving... one two.... sidestep the bag coming back, hook, hook... disengage. Come back with a lead left. Another lead left. A left hook. Clinch and knee.

Five minutes of that is wonderful.

[goju]

LOL, wow, just, wow. I tell you what would be a good experiment. Take a six month form fairy to your local boxing gym and let him go a few rounds with a six month boxer, than come back and tell me just how wrong hitting those bags and mitts has been for the beginning boxer compared to the LARPer dancing around and hitting air. I bet you would find the results quite remarkable.;)

lol as i said you can hit all the mits you want and do your fancy pad drill the minute you go live in sparring its a different matter

neither one of the people here have an advantage over one another because they both hit things that dont hit back

ive seen countless times guys who look good on bags and their technique falls to crap the minute they spar

[Lucas]

I'm partial to the heavy bag. It teaches so much: timing, distancing, movement, body connectivity.

Forms trains those things. The heavy bag works them.

There's definitely a place for mechanical refinement/repetition, but I favor the way I trained it in internal, focusing on the how (how to generate power from the foot and direct it to anywhere/everywhere) and not the what. The what changes. Can you deliver your power while moving and free flowing? The bag works that.

For how long can you do it? That's a whole other thing. Try seven 5 minute rounds with a minute rest between rounds. That's not bad training. NOT JUST STANDING THERE SLUGGING AWAY LIKE A MORON. Moving... one two.... sidestep the bag coming back, hook, hook... disengage. Come back with a lead left. Another lead left. A left hook. Clinch and knee.

Five minutes of that is wonderful.

nice post.

[Lucas]

.

Personally I train movements in forms against people trying to hit with a thai pad as hard as they can.





this is similar to something ive done in the past, just havent done in a while. sometimes to work resistance into your routine, have people attack you while doing the set. yes the attacks are going to be somewhat arranged, such as each person knows the set and knows what comes next and can do an attack they might feel fits that space. you might get it, you might not. ;)

but unlike your standard 2 man form, you get 2-3 guys to hit you from multiple angles during the form. some times one at a time, sometimes 2 or more. you'll get hit, but when you defend/counterattack in that situation according to the techiques in your form, you get a nice bonus out of the set.

this does a few things in addition to working that same exact form solo. you get hit. you hit back. you block/parry/counterattack. yes sometimes you lose the form lol just because it gets so fun and you may get off track. thats fine.

its a fun game.

[Frost]

lol as i said you can hit all the mits you want and do your fancy pad drill the minute you go live in sparring its a different matter

neither one of the people here have an advantage over one another because they both hit things that dont hit back

ive seen countless times guys who look good on bags and their technique falls to crap the minute they spar



I don’t think anyone here is arguing against the fact that sparring is necessary for fighting, or that one can become a fighter only doing pad and bag work….. the question was asked who would win a pure forms guy or someone who just hits the bag, the answer is obvious and masterkiller provided it on the first page (and for the love of god I can’t see how this has managed to reach almost 7 pages)

[goju]

I don’t think anyone here is arguing against the fact that sparring is necessary for fighting, or that one can become a fighter only doing pad and bag work….. the question was asked who would win a pure forms guy or someone who just hits the bag, the answer is obvious and masterkiller provided it on the first page (and for the love of god I can’t see how this has managed to reach almost 7 pages)

i know that and like i said neither one of them has an advantage
like the poster before me said earlier neither one of them spars so they are both not worth a **** they are only concentrating on a small piece of a large puzzle

:D
and i cant beleive it either i would have thought my cyborg dog thats shoots bees when it barks vs a shark with a machine gun would have sparked a heated debate but this!

[Dragonzbane76]

It depends on WHO'S FORMS you are practicing. Generally forms from systems that have rooted connection to progenitors who've actually experienced real life combat are good but they tend to evolve or de-evolve from generation to generation. Forms are part of a methodology of constructing a style that is TEACHABLE. All martial arts have some form of solo practice, No?

There is no who's forms, (meaning just because you train something doesn't mean it's the greatest thing) its the same. I find it humorous that people still stick to these "antiquated" ways as someone stated earlier. Forms do not help you learn to fight period. They show you the movements that someone else thought useful at one point or another. They do not train you to understand impact, body management, circling movements, etc. IMO they are almost useless, if you wanna teach a beginner how to fight start with basic impact drills and controlled sparring.

yes most martial arts have some form of solo, but i'm speaking of forms in general terms of linked movements, set in pattern from someone. (because we all know that all fights are the same :rolleyes:)

anyways, did you copy and paste the rest of that from your schools handbook?

Joking...maybe :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

For those of you who continue to blab on about the greatness of forms, answer me this question. Why is it that trained professional fighters, be it MMA, kickboxing, and boxing, all incorporate (yes, 100 percent) bag work and pad drills into their work outs. Of those, how many do you think do forms regularly. And before someone breaks out the "shadow boxing is a form", no, it is not.

Shadowboxing is a freestyle exercise, meaning there are no set patterns and the practioner throws techniques as they would sparring or fighting. Anyone who thinks bag work or pad drills does not improve someone's actual fighting skill is deluded. That being said, the amount of people arguing over this proves how truly deluded many on this forum really are.:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

For those of you who continue to blab on about the greatness of forms, answer me this question. Why is it that trained professional fighters, be it MMA, kickboxing, and boxing, all incorporate (yes, 100 percent) bag work and pad drills into their work outs. Of those, how many do you think do forms regularly. And before someone breaks out the "shadow boxing is a form", no, it is not.

Shadowboxing is a freestyle exercise, meaning there are no set patterns and the practioner throws techniques as they would sparring or fighting. Anyone who thinks bag work or pad drills does not improve someone's actual fighting skill is deluded. That being said, the amount of people arguing over this proves how truly deluded many on this forum really are.:rolleyes:

no need to get bitter dude. :D We're all in this together!

[Frost]

For those of you who continue to blab on about the greatness of forms, answer me this question. Why is it that trained professional fighters, be it MMA, kickboxing, and boxing, all incorporate (yes, 100 percent) bag work and pad drills into their work outs. Of those, how many do you think do forms regularly. And before someone breaks out the "shadow boxing is a form", no, it is not.

Shadowboxing is a freestyle exercise, meaning there are no set patterns and the practioner throws techniques as they would sparring or fighting. Anyone who thinks bag work or pad drills does not improve someone's actual fighting skill is deluded. That being said, the amount of people arguing over this proves how truly deluded many on this forum really are.:rolleyes:

very well said and this should end this arguement once and for all (but then i thought masterkillers post on page one would do this so what do i know):rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

no need to get bitter dude. We're all in this together!

we might be in here together but were not all on the same page :):)

[David Jamieson]

we might be in here together but were not all on the same page :):)

that's the point isn't it? :p

[Ray Pina]

lol as i said you can hit all the mits you want and do your fancy pad drill the minute you go live in sparring its a different matter

neither one of the people here have an advantage over one another because they both hit things that dont hit back



You should be forced to duck, block, jam and sidestep if you're doing mitt work.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

no need to get bitter dude. :D We're all in this together!

If that is true, we must help this guy:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony/1975788/

[Dragonzbane76]

that's the point isn't it?

well yes, that's why i stated it :p

[David Jamieson]

You should be forced to duck, block, jam and sidestep if you're doing mitt work.

agree, if you are not incorporating this into your mitt or thai pad work, then you are not getting trained correctly with these devices.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You should be forced to duck, block, jam and sidestep if you're doing mitt work.

I've almost KO'd few guys when holding the mitts for them, the mitts are NOT a static drill, neither is the HB.

[Lucas]

people are arguing 'the greatness of forms' ?

i dont see that on this thread....maybe some see some secret hidden posts or something.

ive seen a couple people state some benefits of forms, as well as other types of forms, ie: gongs, etc.....

so far everyone on this thread has made it pretty apparent they feel forms are the weaker portion of martial arts practice. seems to me thats across the board. yes some people do practice forms, and may state why, but im not seeing anyone on this thread say they are superior to the actual hands on drills and practices for fighting. ei: sparring/fighting, pads, bags, you know hands on practice.

i think some people read the word 'form' and instantly assume that person is arguing forms are better....i havnt seen that here. most people simply dont read, absorb, and comprehend all the words written in a post, which im sure this post will come off in some peoples minds that im arguing forms are the ****. which is not the case, but neither is people understanding everything they read...

sure uki is baiting a few of you guys, thats obvious, and funny. but i think that was it.

forms have their place for people that utilize them in a properly constructive manner. but no, as i think everyone here can agree, forms dont make you a fighter, and no forms are not a needed part of martial arts training.

so far i think the best post in this thread is by Ray.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

people are arguing 'the greatness of forms' ?

i dont see that on this thread....maybe some see some secret hidden posts or something.

ive seen a couple people state some benefits of forms, as well as other types of forms, ie: gongs, etc.....

so far everyone on this thread has made it pretty apparent they feel forms are the weaker portion of martial arts practice. seems to me thats across the board. yes some people do practice forms, and may state why, but im not seeing anyone on this thread say they are superior to the actual hands on drills and practices for fighting. ei: sparring/fighting, pads, bags, you know hands on practice.

i think some people read the word 'form' and instantly assume that person is arguing forms are better....i havnt seen that here. most people simply dont read, absorb, and comprehend all the words written in a post, which im sure this post will come off in some peoples minds that im arguing forms are the ****. which is not the case, but neither is people understanding everything they read...

sure uki is baiting a few of you guys, thats obvious, and funny. but i think that was it.

forms have their place for people that utilize them in a properly constructive manner. but no, as i think everyone here can agree, forms dont make you a fighter, and no forms are not a needed part of martial arts training.

so far i think the best post in this thread is by Ray.


Sadly enough there are at least three posters on here arguing that forms are more beneficial to fighting prowess than bag work, which is what the original statement was asking. And no, I did not count Uki in this, he only counts when I need entertained.:D

[Lucas]

Sadly enough there are at least three posters on here arguing that forms are more beneficial to fighting prowess than bag work, which is what the original statement was asking. And no, I did not count Uki in this, he only counts when I need entertained.:D

lol. gotcha.

of course we all know this discussion is never ending in that regards. fantasy fighters will always be out there.

[TAO YIN]

:D

What's funny is...I wonder how much money many so called masters stand to lose without teaching forms and keeping their students thinking they are going to learn a grand high level form with some special name attached to it, ONLY AFTER waiting ten years to do it; seeing of course as how they have to "build" themselves up to that SUPER secret form? TEN YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR...

You want to learn this? It will cost you! And I will teach you the incorrect movements! LOLOL!!!

Bagwork is cheaper, in a more expensive way. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxers and Kickboxers do perfectly fine without forms.

[TAO YIN]

Mike Tyson's "forms" kill any advanced golden trophy winners wushu in my book. You actually CAN see his GING! hehehe

[Lokhopkuen]

There is no who's forms, (meaning just because you train something doesn't mean it's the greatest thing) its the same. I find it humorous that people still stick to these "antiquated" ways as someone stated earlier. Forms do not help you learn to fight period. They show you the movements that someone else thought useful at one point or another. They do not train you to understand impact, body management, circling movements, etc. IMO they are almost useless, if you wanna teach a beginner how to fight start with basic impact drills and controlled sparring.

yes most martial arts have some form of solo, but i'm speaking of forms in general terms of linked movements, set in pattern from someone. (because we all know that all fights are the same :rolleyes:)

anyways, did you copy and paste the rest of that from your schools handbook?

Joking...maybe :)


Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[Ray Pina]

Forms helped me. You work a footwork that you just wouldn't work shuffling, circling and what not. A few karate forms I learned has some nice movements where feet are going one way, the body twisted going another, and somehow the whole movement is elastic.

With that sad, I was always a sparrer. I'd take 3rd in forms because I was a chubby kid but always 1st in sparring. Even then I looked down on the kids who did forms and passed on the sparring. It's karate. You don't join for the forms. You join for the fighting, stay for the forms if you want.

When people go too far they fight. Professional football players take off their gear and fist fight then they can't resolve an issue.

No one says let's go outside and do forms to solve this. Your fists have to hurt the other guy more and faster.... that's it. 5% forms if you must.

[bawang]

we need this and next generation of sifus to change reform and make a difference
but forms is a great way to make monehs there is a dilema

[David Jamieson]

:D

What's funny is...I wonder how much money many so called masters stand to lose without teaching forms and keeping their students thinking they are going to learn a grand high level form with some special name attached to it, ONLY AFTER waiting ten years to do it; seeing of course as how they have to "build" themselves up to that SUPER secret form? TEN YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OR...

You want to learn this? It will cost you! And I will teach you the incorrect movements! LOLOL!!!

Bagwork is cheaper, in a more expensive way. :D

Right now, this is still a factor. It will be less and less so as time passes.
As far as esoteric practice goes, well, some of that stuff takes years to really know.

here's a link to an interesting article about learning. It's not about kungfu directly, but it is about being in a rush to learn.

http://norvig.com/21-days.html

*EDIT*

the pertinent paragraph in that overall article

Researchers (Bloom (1985), Bryan & Harter (1899), Hayes (1989), Simmon & Chase (1973)) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, telegraph operation, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. The key is deliberative practice: not just doing it again and again, but challenging yourself with a task that is just beyond your current ability, trying it, analyzing your performance while and after doing it, and correcting any mistakes. Then repeat. And repeat again. There appear to be no real shortcuts: even Mozart, who was a musical prodigy at age 4, took 13 more years before he began to produce world-class music. In another genre, the Beatles seemed to burst onto the scene with a string of #1 hits and an appearance on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964. But they had been playing small clubs in Liverpool and Hamburg since 1957, and while they had mass appeal early on, their first great critical success, Sgt. Peppers, was released in 1967. Malcolm Gladwell reports that a study of students at the Berlin Academy of Music compared the top, middle, and bottom third of the class and asked them how much they had practiced:

Everyone, from all three groups, started playing at roughly the same time - around the age of five. In those first few years, everyone practised roughly the same amount - about two or three hours a week. But around the age of eight real differences started to emerge. The students who would end up as the best in their class began to practise more than everyone else: six hours a week by age nine, eight by age 12, 16 a week by age 14, and up and up, until by the age of 20 they were practising well over 30 hours a week. By the age of 20, the elite performers had all totalled 10,000 hours of practice over the course of their lives. The merely good students had totalled, by contrast, 8,000 hours, and the future music teachers just over 4,000 hours.

So it may be that 10,000 hours, not 10 years, is the magic number. Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) thought it took longer: "Excellence in any department can be attained only by the labor of a lifetime; it is not to be purchased at a lesser price." And Chaucer (1340-1400) complained "the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." Hippocrates (c. 400BC) is known for the excerpt "ars longa, vita brevis", which is part of the longer quotation "Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile", which in English renders as "Life is short, [the] craft long, opportunity fleeting, experiment treacherous, judgment difficult." Although in Latin, ars can mean either art or craft, in the original Greek the word "techne" can only mean "skill", not "art".

:)

[uki]

time in energy...

[Ray Pina]

Many teachers lack real skill and/or knowledge and/or experience on how to really train... so they teach forms. Eats up a lot of class time. As a bonus you can do them while lion dancing and bring in more money.

Forms are flashy and attract the uneducated who can't see that is not real martial skill. Its self perpetuating.

[Dragonzbane76]

Many teachers lack real skill and/or knowledge and/or experience on how to really train... so they teach forms. Eats up a lot of class time. As a bonus you can do them while lion dancing and bring in more money.

Forms are flashy and attract the uneducated who can't see that is not real martial skill. Its self perpetuating.

100% agree

[sanjuro_ronin]

The sad thing is so many of you would not know real martial art skill until you found yourself picking up your teeth. There are so many idiot teachers in CMA out there that do exactly some of the nonsense that you suggest. My teacher does lion dance and never charges a fee. I have been with him 30 years and have not paid him a dime in tuition in 20 years. I have received hard serious no-nonsense training from the heart in real gung fu.

MMA in the bottom line is a bunch of short cut garbage that leads to a false sense of fighting skill and most of you are in it CAUSE YOU SAW IT ON THE TV:rolleyes: LEMMINGS.....

Fighting in a cage as a spectacle for the pleasure of other miscreants is against the spirit of martial art

My skills are hard won. While others my age are falling apart I have complete flexibility and coordinated full body strength from being trained RIGHT.

Bag training is garbage. Empty Wu Shu fairy forms are laughable.
Well rounded, slowly developed skills last and last.

I work in executive protection 30 years now, my physical encounters are almost never one on one and I ALWAYS come out on top .

Ray you seem a decent guy but I doubt very seriously the way you train and what you train for will leave you in any state of real health beyond forty. Best of luck though.

Dragonbane WTF U'r just a myopic moron end of story.

All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense.

THIS FORUM is related to kung fu and traditional martial art. I took the time to break down the essence of REAL TRADITIONAL Martial Art training and was met with ridicule by some pea brain neophyte that KNOWS SH!T about anything. D-Bane U'r So Fu@king green I smell chlorophyl, Stay ignorant , go rage inna Cage.

Condition yourself to train struggling one on one on the ground and get your face stomped by someones friends. I've seen this more than once once. I was at the after party for "This is it" recently and watched some clown shoot the other's legs and some of the guys friends stepped in to break it up and stomped the crap out of mr shoot-fighter Ha ha ha ha!!

I laugh at this crap and said more than enough.

While I appreciate your position, what you said is rather uncalled for my friend.
As you and I know, TRUE TMA are NOT for everyone and the VAST MAJOROTY of people do far better with Sport MA than TRUE TMA.
We also know that TRUE TMA are harder to find than a virgin in Brasil.

Cut people some slack please.

[Lucas]

We also know that TRUE TMA are harder to find than a virgin in Brasil.



you found one ?!?!?! :eek:

[David Jamieson]

The sad thing is so many of you would not know real martial art skill until you found yourself picking up your teeth. There are so many idiot teachers in CMA out there that do exactly some of the nonsense that you suggest. My teacher does lion dance and never charges a fee. I have been with him 30 years and have not paid him a dime in tuition in 20 years. I have received hard serious no-nonsense training from the heart in real gung fu.

MMA in the bottom line is a bunch of short cut garbage that leads to a false sense of fighting skill and most of you are in it CAUSE YOU SAW IT ON THE TV:rolleyes: LEMMINGS.....

Fighting in a cage as a spectacle for the pleasure of other miscreants is against the spirit of martial art

My skills are hard won. While others my age are falling apart I have complete flexibility and coordinated full body strength from being trained RIGHT.

Bag training is garbage. Empty Wu Shu fairy forms are laughable.
Well rounded, slowly developed skills last and last.

I work in executive protection 30 years now, my physical encounters are almost never one on one and I ALWAYS come out on top .

Ray you seem a decent guy but I doubt very seriously the way you train and what you train for will leave you in any state of real health beyond forty. Best of luck though.

Dragonbane WTF U'r just a myopic moron end of story.

All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense.

THIS FORUM is related to kung fu and traditional martial art. I took the time to break down the essence of REAL TRADITIONAL Martial Art training and was met with ridicule by some pea brain neophyte that KNOWS SH!T about anything. D-Bane U'r So Fu@king green I smell chlorophyl, Stay ignorant , go rage inna Cage.

Condition yourself to train struggling one on one on the ground and get your face stomped by someones friends. I've seen this more than once once. I was at the after party for "This is it" recently and watched some clown shoot the other's legs and some of the guys friends stepped in to break it up and stomped the crap out of mr shoot-fighter Ha ha ha ha!!

I laugh at this crap and said more than enough.

You make it too personal. :)
there are crap cma teachers who teach crap.
there are crap mma clubs filled with people who are there to wear the t-shirt

fighting in a cage is no different than doing it on a lei tai, there is no shame in it.

I agree, that blanket statements about all traditional martial arts are generally spoken out of ignorance or bitterness. It really is not hard to see that.

Every fight, ring or street will have numerous variables.

Speaking in absolutes is what the real problem is. Ultimately, if one is happy with what they have, then that is enough.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you found one ?!?!?! :eek:

Depends which "ONE" you are referring to.

[Lokhopkuen]

While I appreciate your position, what you said is rather uncalled for my friend.
As you and I know, TRUE TMA are NOT for everyone and the VAST MAJOROTY of people do far better with Sport MA than TRUE TMA.
We also know that TRUE TMA are harder to find than a virgin in Brasil.

Cut people some slack please.

What I say is not written in stone brother and just my opinion.

"When people have power the want to put it on display,
When they have a weapon, they can't wait to try it out.."

I'm entitled to my occasional rant.


I'm off the the gym, teach a couple of lessons, then some work.

Peace

[Lokhopkuen]

You make it too personal. :)
there are crap cma teachers who teach crap.
there are crap mma clubs filled with people who are there to wear the t-shirt

fighting in a cage is no different than doing it on a lei tai, there is no shame in it.

I agree, that blanket statements about all traditional martial arts are generally spoken out of ignorance or bitterness. It really is not hard to see that.

Every fight, ring or street will have numerous variables.

Speaking in absolutes is what the real problem is. Ultimately, if one is happy with what they have, then that is enough.

You know how I am David, I ain't mad. I been nice all week an now it's middle finger day...

LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

What I say is not written in stone brother and just my opinion.

"When people have power the want to put it on display,
When they have a weapon, they can't wait to try it out.."

I'm entitled to my occasional rant.


I'm off the the gym, teach a couple of lessons, then some work.

Peace

I know, I know.
:D

[Dragonzbane76]

The sad thing is so many of you would not know real martial art skill until you found yourself picking up your teeth.

Vise versa....


Fighting in a cage as a spectacle for the pleasure of other miscreants is against the spirit of martial art

who cares... really who really cares....spirit of martial arts? come on... I'm a realist.... and this philosophical dogma is bull****, grow up.


Bag training is garbage.

:rolleyes: lol.... go back to your imaginative land of chi power fireballs, you spout enough crap to fill dump trucks. and don't give me "ah I've done the hard work" bullcrap, you've just seen the tip of the iceberge my idiot friend. The reason your probably mad is because one of the above statements about TCMA probably hit a nerve with you, the forms thing or what ever and you got mad.


I work in executive protection 30 years now, my physical encounters are almost never one on one and I ALWAYS come out on top .

grats again... do we give you the award now? Why is it every post i see you start ranting about your background, 'i have such and such a degree, or i do personal protection.' AWESOME...no one else in this world has ever done any of that besides you YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE.


Dragonbane WTF U'r just a myopic moron end of story.

ah empty insults... makes me feel warm and fuzzy....


All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense.

THIS FORUM is related to kung fu and traditional martial art. I took the time to break down the essence of REAL TRADITIONAL Martial Art training and was met with ridicule by some pea brain neophyte that KNOWS SH!T about anything. D-Bane U'r So Fu@king green I smell chlorophyl, Stay ignorant , go rage inna Cage.

Condition yourself to train struggling one on one on the ground and get your face stomped by someones friends. I've seen this more than once once. I was at the after party for "This is it" recently and watched some clown shoot the other's legs and some of the guys friends stepped in to break it up and stomped the crap out of mr shoot-fighter Ha ha ha ha!!

again i must have hit a nerve...:)

you think all i've ever done is MMA? good for you keep thinking that...:cool:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The sad thing is so many of you would not know real martial art skill until you found yourself picking up your teeth. There are so many idiot teachers in CMA out there that do exactly some of the nonsense that you suggest. My teacher does lion dance and never charges a fee. I have been with him 30 years and have not paid him a dime in tuition in 20 years. I have received hard serious no-nonsense training from the heart in real gung fu.


MMA in the bottom line is a bunch of short cut garbage that leads to a false sense of fighting skill and most of you are in it CAUSE YOU SAW IT ON THE TV:rolleyes: LEMMINGS.....

Fighting in a cage as a spectacle for the pleasure of other miscreants is against the spirit of martial art

My skills are hard won. While others my age are falling apart I have complete flexibility and coordinated full body strength from being trained RIGHT.

Bag training is garbage. Empty Wu Shu fairy forms are laughable.
Well rounded, slowly developed skills last and last.

I work in executive protection 30 years now, my physical encounters are almost never one on one and I ALWAYS come out on top .

Ray you seem a decent guy but I doubt very seriously the way you train and what you train for will leave you in any state of real health beyond forty. Best of luck though.

Dragonbane WTF U'r just a myopic moron end of story.

All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense.

THIS FORUM is related to kung fu and traditional martial art. I took the time to break down the essence of REAL TRADITIONAL Martial Art training and was met with ridicule by some pea brain neophyte that KNOWS SH!T about anything. D-Bane U'r So Fu@king green I smell chlorophyl, Stay ignorant , go rage inna Cage.

Condition yourself to train struggling one on one on the ground and get your face stomped by someones friends. I've seen this more than once once. I was at the after party for "This is it" recently and watched some clown shoot the other's legs and some of the guys friends stepped in to break it up and stomped the crap out of mr shoot-fighter Ha ha ha ha!!

I laugh at this crap and said more than enough.

LOL, dude, who ******ed in your corn flakes? I am laughing my a*ss off that a peaceful, Confusious-esque person like yourself suddenly went spastic on the MMA'ers in here. So, for the sake of comedy, let me repute:


MMA in the bottom line is a bunch of short cut garbage that leads to a false sense of fighting skill and most of you are in it CAUSE YOU SAW IT ON THE TV:rolleyes: LEMMINGS.....

It some cases this is true, but overall, a good MMA gym will try to develop a fighter in all fighting ranges as quick as possible. In some cases, you do see many half a*ss fighters, but you see that in Kung Fu as well. Anyone who thinks you need to study a TMA for ten years to be a proficient fighter is seriously delusional.



All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense.

Last I checked this is a public forum. Opinions will vary, so if you think everyone is going to agree with what you say, you are setting yourself up for failure. You also need to drop the whole MMA is against Kung Fu, which is not always the case. I studied Kung Fu for several years, and still use many of the things I was taught. Just because you branch out and learn other things does not mean you forget what you already know.


I took the time to break down the essence of REAL TRADITIONAL Martial Art training and was met with ridicule by some pea brain neophyte that KNOWS SH!T about anything

What you believe to be the essence of real traditional martial arts training may not be what others believe it to be, that being said, if you don't want ridicule, you probably should not be posting on the internet. There will always be someone to disagree with you.


I laugh at this crap and said more than enough.[/QUOTE]

Dude, you are taking this way too personally. In the words of grand master and grand pooba of all lunacy, Uki, everything is subjective.:p

[Ray Pina]

I do what I do for fun.

MMA training is fantastic. I don't train "mma" at one place. I train jiu-jitsu and wrestling with my grappling coach. When my hand heals I'm going to start training striking with a local kick boxing coach. His guys are winning in the local MMA circuit.

My E-Chuan master made me secure in dealing with most real life encounters, safe so far.

What I do now is specializing in fighting fighters. Technical and positional advantages. How to improve my position from position to position. And the MMA competing keeps it real, keeps me conditioned and tough.

I have seen good Kung Fu training like you describe. I've participated in it. I've also had a friend nearly crippled in an accident healed by his Choy La Fut training. Provided free by his Chinese master. He's strong and tough now.

The problem with these instances, from my experience, is that they're isolated. Their sense of elitism keeps them from comparing with others and often leeds to a false sense of advantage.

I respect what you do. But providing security, usually as a member of a team, with communications and weapons, usually supported by local governments, while super cool, is different then fighting someone who specializes in fighting.

For as tough as you are, a competitive MMAer would probably tool you simply because he's fighting, grappling, being hit and hitting, all the time. As specialized as you are with what you do, they are at what they do. MMA specializes in beating a single other man.

When you are the best at beating one, you have a better understand of what it takes to finish a confrontation. You understand the risks and rewards of each attempted strategy. This helps with twos and threes. Or could. Situations like that are unique to time and place.

[Ray Pina]

Also keep in mind, MMA is just a venue, rule sets. It's a game. Like chess.

I love chess. I prefer 2 minute blitz or 5 minute blitz. But I play straight no time chess too. Its chess. They help each other.

To help me fight fighters in the best, most open venue available to me now, I train BJJ and wrestling. I train kick boxing.

This doesn't mean I throw away all the rest. It means I have a place to use my existing methods while adding to and supporting them.

I think MMA helps operating MAers be the best they can be, legally and safely.... otherwise I would train something else.

[Lokhopkuen]

LOL, dude, who ******ed in your corn flakes? I am laughing my a*ss off that a peaceful, Confusious-esque person like yourself suddenly went spastic on the MMA'ers in here. So, for the sake of comedy, let me repute:



It some cases this is true, but overall, a good MMA gym will try to develop a fighter in all fighting ranges as quick as possible. In some cases, you do see many half a*ss fighters, but you see that in Kung Fu as well. Anyone who thinks you need to study a TMA for ten years to be a proficient fighter is seriously delusional.




Last I checked this is a public forum. Opinions will vary, so if you think everyone is going to agree with what you say, you are setting yourself up for failure. You also need to drop the whole MMA is against Kung Fu, which is not always the case. I studied Kung Fu for several years, and still use many of the things I was taught. Just because you branch out and learn other things does not mean you forget what you already know.



What you believe to be the essence of real traditional martial arts training may not be what others believe it to be, that being said, if you don't want ridicule, you probably should not be posting on the internet. There will always be someone to disagree with you.



Dude, you are taking this way too personally. In the words of grand master and grand pooba of all lunacy, Uki, everything is subjective.:p

Don't read into what I say man. I ain't angry. Just expressing it from my POV.:D

Peace

[Lokhopkuen]

I do what I do for fun.

MMA training is fantastic. I don't train "mma" at one place. I train jiu-jitsu and wrestling with my grappling coach. When my hand heals I'm going to start training striking with a local kick boxing coach. His guys are winning in the local MMA circuit.

My E-Chuan master made me secure in dealing with most real life encounters, safe so far.

What I do now is specializing in fighting fighters. Technical and positional advantages. How to improve my position from position to position. And the MMA competing keeps it real, keeps me conditioned and tough.

I have seen good Kung Fu training like you describe. I've participated in it. I've also had a friend nearly crippled in an accident healed by his Choy La Fut training. Provided free by his Chinese master. He's strong and tough now.

The problem with these instances, from my experience, is that they're isolated. Their sense of elitism keeps them from comparing with others and often leeds to a false sense of advantage.

I respect what you do. But providing security, usually as a member of a team, with communications and weapons, usually supported by local governments, while super cool, is different then fighting someone who specializes in fighting.

For as tough as you are, a competitive MMAer would probably tool you simply because he's fighting, grappling, being hit and hitting, all the time. As specialized as you are with what you do, they are at what they do. MMA specializes in beating a single other man.

When you are the best at beating one, you have a better understand of what it takes to finish a confrontation. You understand the risks and rewards of each attempted strategy. This helps with twos and threes. Or could. Situations like that are unique to time and place.

My true point is there are many people touting MMA whist P*ssing all over the reputation of TCMA on a KUNG FU FORUM:mad: There are many CMA schools that have contributed to the poor reputation of these systems and s c r e w them.
Buddy I've always liked your style. You talk about your game and training regimen with never a word of negativity towards others and their practice. I respect that!
You even post vids and pics showing you are a real person.
My issue is with the anonymous bigmouth detractors that never contribute anything positive but are always talking some type of crap:rolleyes:

Best wishes to you and your practice and competitions.

Peace

[uki]

MMA in the bottom line is a bunch of short cut garbage that leads to a false sense of fighting skill and most of you are in it CAUSE YOU SAW IT ON THE TVouch...


Fighting in a cage as a spectacle for the pleasure of other miscreants is against the spirit of martial art LOL... manly ***** wagging... mine is bigger than yours mentality. :D


Bag training is garbage. Empty Wu Shu fairy forms are laughable.
Well rounded, slowly developed skills last and last.very well said...


Ray you seem a decent guy but I doubt very seriously the way you train and what you train for will leave you in any state of real health beyond forty. Best of luck though. he's a tiger, i am sure he'll have some luck around.


Dragonbane WTF U'r just a myopic moron end of story.too bad it won't be the end...


All you spouting garbage about the supposed superior or nature of MMA training are invited to take that crap to another forum that discusses that nonsense. but then who would we have a laughing expense at???


D-Bane U'r So Fu@king green I smell chlorophyl, Stay ignorant , go rage inna Cage. LMAO!!!


I laugh at this crap and said more than enough.there is definitely no shortage of good medicine around here. :D

[David Jamieson]

gonna go round in circles!
gonna fly high up in the sky!


well, i think this thread has had it's day.
we're all just peeing on each others shoes at this point.

:p

[uki]

we're all just peeing on each others shoes at this point.some of us are barefoot and don't give a ****. :D

[Lucas]

he's a tiger, i am sure he'll have some luck around.


on that note, i bet you're looking forward to february

[uki]

on that note, i bet you're looking forward to februaryoh yes... very much. :)

[Lucas]

ive got about 5 more years till its my turn ! :mad:

[uki]

ive got about 5 more years till its my turn !my last year back in 1998 saw me and my brother tossed out of and banned for 10 years from austria. good stuff!!! your first third cycle you have to pass thru your destroying element - in my case it's the year of the metal tiger, as i am a wood tiger. it should be interesting nonetheless... all tiger years kick a$$!!

[Lucas]

whats in store for me at 36?

[uki]

whats in store for me at 36?considering that 36 is the third cycle and reduces to 9... it will be a year of great change. think about it - it will be the first time you pass thru your destructive year... you cannot but emerge a stronger person after experiencing the energy of it.

[Yum Cha]

I fundamentally have an issue with comparing forms to bag work and concluding the same objective.

Bag work is great, heavy bag, crash bag, focus mits...

But form work is more. Significantly more, and a good bit of it is totally unrelated to fighting. And, sorry, I'm pulling the Pak Mei card here, OUR forms are really groovy compared to anything else I've done or seen. Sorry, the rest of you are worthless and weak. Its, OK, I'm used to it.


David -

Great quote on the 10,000 hours thing.

Of course, you've heard the Chinese saying, "A journey of 10,000 steps?"

[Lucas]

considering that 36 is the third cycle and reduces to 9... it will be a year of great change. think about it - it will be the first time you pass thru your destructive year... you cannot but emerge a stronger person after experiencing the energy of it.

or completely and utterly annihilated :D

[uki]

Sorry, the rest of you are worthless and weak.LMAO!!! spoken like white eyebrow himself. :p

[Lokhopkuen]

some of us are barefoot and don't give a ****. :D

I wear vibram five fingers! Almost bare foot but stylish:D

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/74/m_8ef0001360af62ec7e7c17c2a6cbcb8a.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

too bad it won't be the end...

that sir is a correct statement....:)


but then who would we have a laughing expense at???

I know... what would i do with my down time... this is much more interesting.
I've agreed with you on something uki... i better write this down :)
Although its the flip side of it... ah well can't have everything....

your link the yang... and i'm like the yin or some sudo bull crap...anyways... it's always a fun time to see people get bent outta shape over the INTERNET.

[Dragonzbane76]

so uki you do the chinese calendar stuff? curious that's all.

don't jump the gun here and get all huffy... was asking a serious question for a second.

[SPJ]

Unsolved Mathematical Fighting Question....

James has a heavy bag that he beats every day, as hard as he can, over and over again. Jack has a practical form that he plays every day as hard as he can, over and over again. They both train equally time wise, agression wise, and all that other wise. With regards to what they are doing in their training, both have good structure, equally. Neither men have ever had a fight. Who wins and why?

:D

both are needed. bagwork to improve speed, accuracy and power.

froms to practice basic stance, transition stance, stepping, etc

who would win? depending on the conditions

some time you win, some time you lose.

--

just like the weather, sometime it is raining, some time it is sunny.

--

:)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

][/QUOTE]just like the weather, sometime it is raining, some time it is sunny[QUOTE

What if it's doing both:eek::D

[Dragonzbane76]

rainbow? :)

[uki]

so uki you do the chinese calendar stuff? curious that's all.

don't jump the gun here and get all huffy... was asking a serious question for a second.i have been studying it for like one cycle now(12 years). assuming your name is an indicator of your sign(76-fire dragon), your anology is correct - tigers represent yang and dragons represent yin... the yin/yang of power.

so if you have some questions, by all means shoot... i live for this stuff. :D

[Dragonzbane76]

no real questions just interesting that you study it. and yes... my title does represent me in dragon 76 :)

[Wildwoo]

that sir is a correct statement....:)



I know... what would i do with my down time... this is much more interesting.
I've agreed with you on something uki... i better write this down :)
Although its the flip side of it... ah well can't have everything....

your link the yang... and i'm like the yin or some sudo bull crap...anyways... it's always a fun time to see people get bent outta shape over the INTERNET.

Dude;
What is really sad is an experienced, knowledgeable martial arts master took the time to educate you and you we're so busy acting like a child you missed it LOL.:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

Dude;
What is really sad is an experienced, knowledgeable martial arts master took the time to educate you and you we're so busy acting like a child you missed it LOL.

haha lol....OK.

whos the experienced master? lol...I'm a little confused here.

Master is a stupid term IMO... everyones a master on the INTERWEBS.

every five and dime dude on the corner at McD's has a black belt these days I'm not about to bow down to someone I met on the internet. I actually kinda like UKi, but I give no one cred. for words on the internet.

[Lokhopkuen]

I'm no Master I just practice everyday:D

[Dragonzbane76]

was he refering to you? wasn't sure...

If so doesn't suprise me. :cool:

[Lokhopkuen]

haha lol....OK.

whos the experienced master? lol...I'm a little confused here.

Master is a stupid term IMO... everyones a master on the INTERWEBS.

every five and dime dude on the corner at McD's has a black belt these days I'm not about to bow down to someone I met on the internet. I actually kinda like UKi, but I give no one cred. for words on the internet.

So many people have begun to use the title Master, Grand Master to describe themselves that it is as you say any five and dime dude has a blackbelt. There was a time when having the title of blackbelt actually meant something but those days have passed. The term Master is used as a title of respect by one's peers and no practitioner of an real skill would ever use it to describe themselves.

I don't know who you are bro or what you are about but my contributions here are sincere and wether people agree or disagree my writings extend beyond petty contentiousness. I'm up at 5:30AM to teach Tai Chi at 6:30 this morning. I have lived a life studying the martial, experimenting, competing and teaching.

I have participated in my share of misusing it as well.

I laugh when ironeagle referred to me as a Peaceful Confucian when in reality I am anything but. I attempt to project the online image of a practitioner seeking the higher road. I promote peaceful interaction and spiritual development through martial cultivation but I'm just folks. If you met me in life you'd find I am a friendly person and I'd greet you with a smile and a firm hand shake but I am also a rowdy fu@kup and proud of it.

I'm here to make friends, share ideas, debate, philosophize, clown around and have a good time but mainly I'm here because I love martial art.

I have yet to see you contribute anything of martial content here bro.

Why are you here?

You talk tough, speak of your YEARS of experience in BJJ and grappling yet you diss me when I refer to my "experience" but in real life I am known for my contributions to the martial world. I have quite a few students, my face on the TV, in magazines, but we have yet to see your face or read your name whilst you talk all this sh!t.

It's easy to be a bad ass when you are an anonymous troll. :rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

first off..

Your right you don't know me.

second this is the internet... I come here to burn time while at work. I don't come here to list my resume or anything like that. If you like doing that congrats. I throw my 2 cents in there when I feel I think something is wrong or bogus. If you do not like it then ignore me. I DON'T CARE.


I attempt to project the online image of a practitioner seeking the higher road. I promote peaceful interaction and spiritual development through martial cultivation but I'm just folks. If you met me in life you'd find I am a friendly person and I'd greet you with a smile and a firm hand shake but I am also a rowdy fu@kup and proud of it.

again grats. I should care about this because??


I don't know who you are bro or what you are about but my contributions here are sincere and wether people agree or disagree my writings extend beyond petty contentiousness. I'm up at 5:30AM to teach Tai Chi at 6:30 this morning. I have lived a life studying the martial, experimenting, competing and teaching.

again posting and reposting your creds. If your happy with it than continue doing it. My opinions have nothing to do with it.

Just because you post your past like it's a newpaper does not constitue me to start believing you. I don't dislike you or anyone on here, I don't know anyone personally enough to dislike them, you seem to forget this is a forum. No need to get all emotional about words.


You talk tough, speak of your YEARS of experience in BJJ and grappling yet you diss me when I refer to my "experience" but in real life I am known for my contributions to the martial world. I have quite a few students, my face on the TV, in magazines, but we have yet to see your face or read your name whilst you talk all this sh!t.

I spoke a couple times about what i did. YOur the one who went digging in my posts for answers. I'm not dissing you. Just because I don't agree with some of the things you say, I do not make it personal. The reason I started questioning your answers was for the apparent reason of posting your resume every single time. Maybe your someone where you live, but in my world your a name on the internet, whom I could really give a Sh*t about.

so again if you do not like my posts put me on ignore. that will solve your dillema with what I post.

[Lokhopkuen]

first off..

Your right you don't know me.

second this is the internet... I come here to burn time while at work. I don't come here to list my resume or anything like that. If you like doing that congrats. I throw my 2 cents in there when I feel I think something is wrong or bogus. If you do not like it then ignore me. I DON'T CARE.


again grats. I should care about this because??



again posting and reposting your creds. If your happy with it than continue doing it. My opinions have nothing to do with it.

Just because you post your past like it's a newpaper does not constitue me to start believing you. I don't dislike you or anyone on here, I don't know anyone personally enough to dislike them, you seem to forget this is a forum. No need to get all emotional about words.



I spoke a couple times about what i did. YOur the one who went digging in my posts for answers. I'm not dissing you. Just because I don't agree with some of the things you say, I do not make it personal. The reason I started questioning your answers was for the apparent reason of posting your resume every single time. Maybe your someone where you live, but in my world your a name on the internet, whom I could really give a Sh*t about.

so again if you do not like my posts put me on ignore. that will solve your dillema with what I post.

How about I just say fu@k you troll and we'll be done with it:D

[Dragonzbane76]

haha what ever makes you happy... :p

[Wildwoo]

first off..

Your right you don't know me.



The proper spelling is you're? Who would want to know you? How could we/
You're a troll LOL!




second this is the internet....




Have you ever considered detective work?:rolleyes:






again grats. I should care about this because??



again posting and reposting your creds. If your happy with it than continue doing it. My opinions have nothing to do with it.

Just because you post your past like it's a newpaper does not constitue me to start believing you. I don't dislike you or anyone on here, I don't know anyone personally enough to dislike them, you seem to forget this is a forum. No need to get all emotional about words.



Spell checker buddy! This guy is a genius:rolleyes:



I spoke a couple times about what i did. YOur the one who went digging in my posts for answers. I'm not dissing you. Just because I don't agree with some of the things you say, I do not make it personal. The reason I started questioning your answers was for the apparent reason of posting your resume every single time. Maybe your someone where you live, but in my world your a name on the internet, whom I could really give a Sh*t about.


You don't have a very good grasp of the English language do you buddy?:eek::eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

all you can throw back is my grammar? :)
didn't know i was up for a spelling award. Next time I'll study harder I swear.

chirp chirp the little birdy said. your probably his student or something? just taking that from the context.


you can put me on ignore as well,,, i swear it won't hurt my feelings. :rolleyes:

[Wildwoo]

all you can throw back is my grammar? :)
didn't know i was up for a spelling award. Next time I'll study harder I swear.

chirp chirp the little birdy said. your probably his student or something? just taking that from the context.


you can put me on ignore as well,,, i swear it won't hurt my feelings. :rolleyes:

Like I care what you think? He's right you're a clown:p:p

[Dragonzbane76]

Like I care what you think? He's right you're a clown

If you didn't care you wouldn't respond...

I might be a clown...I like making people smile... brightens the day. :)

[Lokhopkuen]

Like I care what you think? He's right you're a clown:p:p

Try not to get emotional:p

[Wildwoo]

I might be a clown...

Tried the forums for Ringling Brothers (http://www.ringling.com/)? We're talking about the Kung Fu here, so maybe quiet down there Bozo.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d18/milacali/HaHaFunny.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

kung fu is a subjective term...

Uki 101...

[Wildwoo]

kung fu is a subjective term...

Uki 101...

I wonder if UKI is comfortable with you hanging from his balls:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

haha don't know ask him...

by the way I like your sig. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

have to admit you 2 have made my morning fly by. Had a lot of down time this morning at work, been enjoyable bantering, makes the day go by faster. althought wildwoo you need to thicken your skin up a bit.

[Wildwoo]

So you do care?:D

[Wildwoo]

have to admit you 2 have made my morning fly by. Had a lot of down time this morning at work, been enjoyable bantering, makes the day go by faster. althought wildwoo you need to thicken your skin up a bit.

I'm getting paid LMAO!:D

[Dragonzbane76]

you're a gud sport :p

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you do care?

I care enough to waste time at work. :)

[Ray Pina]

What happened to this topic?

[Lokhopkuen]

What happened to this topic?

the same thing that happens to most......

[Dragonzbane76]

sorry was probably my fault there. we were having a discussion on difference of opinions and it seems to have gotten a little ousted.

Anyways forms and bag work...

proceed.

[Lokhopkuen]

The bag guy no wait, dudes that do forms:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The bag guy no wait, dudes that do forms:D

It depends. If a guy does bag work on Mondays and Wednesdays, than does forms on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he will be mediocre. However, if he does bag work on Tuesdays and Fridays, forms on Mondays and Wednesdays, than accupuncture on Saturdays and Iron Crotch on Sundays, a great warrior he will become.:D

[Lokhopkuen]

It depends. If a guy does bag work on Mondays and Wednesdays, than does forms on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he will be mediocre. However, if he does bag work on Tuesdays and Fridays, forms on Mondays and Wednesdays, than accupuncture on Saturdays and Iron Crotch on Sundays, a great warrior he will become.:D

Wisdom oozes from you sir:D

[Yum Cha]

The secret to great fighting skills in neither training nor sparring, it is quite simply,

No Sex.



You know that will make you wanna kill someone.

[uki]

What happened to this topic?what happened to your diapers? :D

The bag guy no wait, dudes that do forms.it's about the bag guy who does forms when no one is looking. :p

I wonder if UKI is comfortable with you hanging from his balls.nothing like scrotum lifts. :)

[Lokhopkuen]

The secret to great fighting skills in neither training nor sparring, it is quite simply,

No Sex.



You know that will make you wanna kill someone.

Want to practice seminal retention?

GET MARRIED:eek:

[uki]

Want to practice seminal retention?

GET MARRIEDthe spoken words of a truly experienced master. :D

[Yum Cha]

Young fella carries 1 condom around in his wallet for a year, waiting for the chance to take the skin boat to tuna town...

Once he's had a bit of action, he gets the 3 pack, because, well, you know, on a good night you'll probably use at least 2, and having that third around just in case is comforting.

Married guy buys the 12 pack....

Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, June.....

[YouKnowWho]

What happened to this topic?

If you have never trained your "outside crescent kick" on a heavy bag, the 1st time that you use it against a life opponent, you may twist your own knee when making contact.

Kicking in the thin air is no way to train your kicking skill.

[uki]

Kicking in the thin air is no way to train your kicking skill.train high. kick low... i like kicking trees.

[Dragonzbane76]

speaking of tree's, isn't your head made of wood?

[Yum Cha]

If you have never trained your "outside crescent kick" on a heavy bag, the 1st time that you use it against a life opponent, you may twist your own knee when making contact.

Kicking in the thin air is no way to train your kicking skill.


I agree with your first statement, but kicking the thin air is a way to train your kicking, the beginning, initial steps. You need flexibility and strength as pre-reqs.

Train the form first, then train the power.
Pretty consistent training principle.

[uki]

speaking of tree's, isn't your head made of wood?well, i was born in the elemental year of wood... this might explain the two broken hands that two different people recieved from punching me in the head during some scuffles. :D

on another note... i whacked myself in my left temple with the end of my 21lb iron bar. i mean i was swinging that thing around like a madman doing form and i nailed myself square on - i did not knock myself out, i did not swell up, no bruise, nada, nothing... i was sore for a few hours, but that was it. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

well, i was born in the elemental year of wood... this might explain the two broken hands that two different people recieved from punching me in the head during some scuffles. :D

on another note... i whacked myself in my left temple with the end of my 21lb iron bar. i mean i was swinging that thing around like a madman doing form and i nailed myself square on - i did not knock myself out, i did not swell up, no bruise, nada, nothing... i was sore for a few hours, but that was it. :)

Maybe you're an Ent!

[taai gihk yahn]

Maybe you're an Ent!

well, when we met it did take him about 12 hours for him to introduce himself and agree that we were not orcs...

[Scott R. Brown]

well, when we met it did take him about 12 hours for him to introduce himself and agree that we were not orcs...

And he does work an awful lot on rooting!

[Drake]

well, i was born in the elemental year of wood... this might explain the two broken hands that two different people recieved from punching me in the head during some scuffles. :D

on another note... i whacked myself in my left temple with the end of my 21lb iron bar. i mean i was swinging that thing around like a madman doing form and i nailed myself square on - i did not knock myself out, i did not swell up, no bruise, nada, nothing... i was sore for a few hours, but that was it. :)

TBI doesn't always manifest itself instantly. You may want to have it looked at. Electrocution works similarly, with people who felt fine when it happened dying later.

[uki]

TBI doesn't always manifest itself instantly. You may want to have it looked at. Electrocution works similarly, with people who felt fine when it happened dying later.whats TBI? this happened like 2 or three years ago.

[SAAMAG]

Unsolved Mathematical Fighting Question....

James has a heavy bag that he beats every day, as hard as he can, over and over again. Jack has a practical form that he plays every day as hard as he can, over and over again. They both train equally time wise, agression wise, and all that other wise. With regards to what they are doing in their training, both have good structure, equally. Neither men have ever had a fight. Who wins and why?

:D

Winner: Bag Hitter
Why: Because he has a better grasp of what it takes to hit effectively and with power. If training the heavy bag properly, he will have been practicing with his guard up, using evasive manuvers and footwork, and hit with varying amounts of power. The byproduct is a better sense of what it takes to hit effectively, and the overall cardio on a heavy bag produces better results than doing forms in my experience.

All too often people who only punch the air will collapse their form when they hit something solid--sometimes even hurting themselves.

[uki]

Winner: Bag Hitter
Why: Because he has a better grasp of what it takes to hit effectively and with power. If training the heavy bag properly, he will have been practicing with his guard up, using evasive manuvers and footwork, and hit with varying amounts of power. The byproduct is a better sense of what it takes to hit effectively, and the overall cardio on a heavy bag produces better results than doing forms in my experience.

All too often people who only punch the air will collapse their form when they hit something solid--sometimes even hurting themselves.i swear there is some form of highly contagious and infectionous disease out there affecting most people... how exactly does bag-work teach evasive footwork better than doing form-work?? and why does everyone believe that if someone does forms that they only punch the air? and why do you think that people who do forms don't hit other stuff?? and what makes you believe that what appears to be "punching the air" is actually what is being done?? goodness gracious some of you people are astounding to say the least. :D

[Frost]

i swear there is some form of highly contagious and infectionous disease out there affecting most people... how exactly does bag-work teach evasive footwork better than doing form-work?? and why does everyone believe that if someone does forms that they only punch the air? and why do you think that people who do forms don't hit other stuff?? and what makes you believe that what appears to be "punching the air" is actually what is being done?? goodness gracious some of you people are astounding to say the least. :D


Maybe because the original question was about one of them only doing forms and one only doing pad work...?

Because the bag moves and using it properly entails you moving around with it, dodging it as it comes at you, making sure you are in range all the time as it moves.

It does not matter what your intent is, if the move is done in the air then you are not getting any feedback in terms of correct distance, impact, body alignment that you would when hitting a bag

Its not rocket science for gods sake

[Dragonzbane76]

swear there is some form of highly contagious and infectionous disease out there affecting most people... how exactly does bag-work teach evasive footwork better than doing form-work?? and why does everyone believe that if someone does forms that they only punch the air? and why do you think that people who do forms don't hit other stuff?? and what makes you believe that what appears to be "punching the air" is actually what is being done?? goodness gracious some of you people are astounding to say the least.

yes uki everyone else is wrong and your right....:rolleyes:

how does bag work teach evasive footwork... apparently you've never done it if you have to even ask that question.


and why does everyone believe that if someone does forms that they only punch the air?

because you do not have a resistant target..duh...


and why do you think that people who do forms don't hit other stuff??

wasn't part of the original statement Bag vs. forms


and what makes you believe that what appears to be "punching the air" is actually what is being done??

this sentence makes no sense...:cool:


goodness gracious some of you people are astounding to say the least.

I wouldn't say astounding in your case... just hardheaded and not willing to listen to the general status quo. :p

[bawang]

who would win in a cage fight
royce gracie or guan gong the god of war

[Dragonzbane76]

i'm going with posidon the lord of the sea....:p

[SAAMAG]

Maybe because the original question was about one of them only doing forms and one only doing pad work...?

Because the bag moves and using it properly entails you moving around with it, dodging it as it comes at you, making sure you are in range all the time as it moves.

It does not matter what your intent is, if the move is done in the air then you are not getting any feedback in terms of correct distance, impact, body alignment that you would when hitting a bag

Its not rocket science for gods sake

Thanks...couldn't have said it better myself.

[Ray Pina]

The problem we are having is that a lot of traditional guys like to make sharp, snappy movements in the air to hear their gi, Chinese jacket or some other garment snap.

The thing these types don't understand is that it doesn't snap unless you jerk the strike back, which reduces power, not enhances it.


Then you have the other school of thought, that prides themselves on knowing this so they like to do form and stomp the ground.... also wrong. If your weight is landing heavy on your front foot it is not going into the target.

Form can actually train bad habits if not watched closely by a keen-eyed expert. Too many people think they are expert when they are not. Too many people think they are expert and are not and teach. Too many people too willing to be taught by an expert that aint really an expert that this snapping and foot stomping occur.

Expert martial artists get that way by fighting. They may have their own private methods of training certain things but there's a reason to them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem we are having is that a lot of traditional guys like to make sharp, snappy movements in the air to hear their gi, Chinese jacket or some other garment snap.

The thing these types don't understand is that it doesn't snap unless you jerk the strike back, which reduces power, not enhances it.


Then you have the other school of thought, that prides themselves on knowing this so they like to do form and stomp the ground.... also wrong. If your weight is landing heavy on your front foot it is not going into the target.

Form can actually train bad habits if not watched closely by a keen-eyed expert. Too many people think they are expert when they are not. Too many people think they are expert and are not and teach. Too many people too willing to be taught by an expert that aint really an expert that this snapping and foot stomping occur.

Expert martial artists get that way by fighting. They may have their own private methods of training certain things but there's a reason to them.

EX:
Fedor has lousy form in his strikes.
Silva is another that, when you see him do "forms" you'd think he couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag.

[David Jamieson]

EX:
Fedor has lousy form in his strikes.
Silva is another that, when you see him do "forms" you'd think he couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag.

As much as I think Fedor is a great fighter, I believe he went strikeforce because of two reasons:

1. Dana white
2. Brock Lesnar

Dana White would find someone to do him in.

Brock Lesnar would be that man.

I don't think Fedor could take Lesnar. Lesnar is a monster. Period.

Silva never shows serious form work. He goofs around and looks goofy doing it, but when he pulls the stuff out in a ring in context, that dude can work the weird martial art!

fedor is a power striker. To someone who does forms, that looks weird. To someone who uses force feedback, that doesn't look weird at all, but it does change the way they do their forms.

I can emphatically state that by moving more into mma type training has had me change the shape of a great deal of things inside of forms I've learned and for the better!

You can see it in Chinese Kungfu guys who have fought for real too. They still do forms, but those same forms look very different in shape from how they are done by people who don't normally use the techs within.

you wanna see someone shrimp up and make a diamond shield while doing a black tiger form not unlike Hung Kuen, well, that would be me. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

As much as I think Fedor is a great fighter, I believe he went strikeforce because of two reasons:

1. Dana white
2. Brock Lesnar

Dana White would find someone to do him in.

Brock Lesnar would be that man.

I don't think Fedor could take Lesnar. Lesnar is a monster. Period.

Silva never shows serious form work. He goofs around and looks goofy doing it, but when he pulls the stuff out in a ring in context, that dude can work the weird martial art!

fedor is a power striker. To someone who does forms, that looks weird. To someone who uses force feedback, that doesn't look weird at all, but it does change the way they do their forms.

I can emphatically state that by moving more into mma type training has had me change the shape of a great deal of things inside of forms I've learned and for the better!

You can see it in Chinese Kungfu guys who have fought for real too. They still do forms, but those same forms look very different in shape from how they are done by people who don't normally use the techs within.

you wanna see someone shrimp up and make a diamond shield while doing a black tiger form not unlike Hung Kuen, well, that would be me. :D

Guys that have never done "forms" will look quite different from guys that do, GSP does some very nice shadow boxing for example, the late great Andy Hug was another, but guys that never where "brought up" doing forms will just not look "right" when they shadow box as compared to guys that have, BUT that doesn't effect their ability to actually fight and fight very well.

[David Jamieson]

Guys that have never done "forms" will look quite different from guys that do, GSP does some very nice shadow boxing for example, the late great Andy Hug was another, but guys that never where "brought up" doing forms will just not look "right" when they shadow box as compared to guys that have, BUT that doesn't effect their ability to actually fight and fight very well.

true, but there are fundamental truths to the correct shape for optimum power, force, use of strength etc.

these optimum structures are often stressed in forms and also often stressed incorrectly by "masters" who haven't actually used the techniques and don't actually understand how the structure is correct in use. (I've encountered this on a few occasions in the last 10 years especially)

ultimately, you and I could be taught the same form by teh same teacher and we'd take it away and practice it for a year, ge corrected, come back and we would both demonstrate the form and while the pattern would be the same, the expression of the form would likely be entirely different because my structure and your structure, my understanding and your understanding are different.

also, what is inside the form we will each have a differnet preference, you might like a couple fo kicks and some of the locking moves and i might favour the elbowing and punching techniques.

This will show in how we perform the set as well and will also manifest in our own personal fighting styles.

we've been given the same book to read, but got more out of different chapters of it. :)

An artist can only produce the piece as he feels it, sees it, thinks it. But the observer gets a whole different experience from that same piece.

forms are like this as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

true, but there are fundamental truths to the correct shape for optimum power, force, use of strength etc.

these optimum structures are often stressed in forms and also often stressed incorrectly by "masters" who haven't actually used the techniques and don't actually understand how the structure is correct in use. (I've encountered this on a few occasions in the last 10 years especially)

ultimately, you and I could be taught the same form by teh same teacher and we'd take it away and practice it for a year, ge corrected, come back and we would both demonstrate the form and while the pattern would be the same, the expression of the form would likely be entirely different because my structure and your structure, my understanding and your understanding are different.

also, what is inside the form we will each have a differnet preference, you might like a couple fo kicks and some of the locking moves and i might favour the elbowing and punching techniques.

This will show in how we perform the set as well and will also manifest in our own personal fighting styles.

we've been given the same book to read, but got more out of different chapters of it. :)

An artist can only produce the piece as he feels it, sees it, thinks it. But the observer gets a whole different experience from that same piece.

forms are like this as well.

Very well said, for a pagan kickboxer wannabe !!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Very well said, for a pagan kickboxer wannabe !!

We need to print off T-shirts with a PKW logo and distribute them accordingly.:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pagan's get all the naughty chicks !!
http://www.tothepeople.com/uploaded_images/46223_AmandineWitchCraft_1_123_405lo_123_405lo-729388.jpg

[bawang]

u r a dirty old man

[Boston Bagua]

we need a non-entity tag and logo for all the non-entities here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

u r a dirty old man

Dude, I'm only 40, does that count as old man already ??

[uki]

Dude, I'm only 40, does that count as old man already ??so you admit you are dirty, just not quite sure about the "old man" part, eh? :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

so you admit you are dirty, just not quite sure about the "old man" part, eh? :D

Moi ???
Whatever do you mean?

[bawang]

dude
sanjuro
what if shaolin monks learned brazilian ju jitsu
that would blow my mind

[uki]

dude
sanjuro
what if shaolin monks learned brazilian ju jitsu
that would blow my mindyou blow my mind. :)

[bawang]

i have to agree with ray pina about snappy air punches in kung fu and karate
long fist kung fu isnt meant to be done in a snappy way at all

[sanjuro_ronin]

dude
sanjuro
what if shaolin monks learned brazilian ju jitsu
that would blow my mind

Why would that blow your mind?
Have you seen some brasilian women?
http://www.0funny.com/wp-content/uploads/images/round_asses/1-best_ass_5.jpg

[uki]

i have to agree with ray pina about snappy air punches in kung fu and karateyou know i named my goat wang once...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, lets not take it in that direction ok?

[uki]

Guys, lets not take it in that direction ok?i bet my goat would've gave bawang the run for his money - he probably would've left my dogs alone if he were still with us today...

[bawang]

i really dont understand the limp tinfoil weapons
they dont look good for performance at all. they look terrible. judges at those kung fu tournaments should judge forms by the degree of manliness u display
kung fu should be only for manly men. ive met transvestites that were more manly than many kung fu people

weapon sparring is a joke also
people tickle you and get a point. lame

[Yum Cha]

Very well said, for a pagan kickboxer wannabe !!

You forgot zombie...

[Yum Cha]

Dude, I'm only 40, does that count as old man already ??


At 40, you are no longer the oldest young man, you are the youngest old man.

Congratulations! LOL

[Yum Cha]

The problem we are having is that a lot of traditional guys like to make sharp, snappy movements in the air to hear their gi, Chinese jacket or some other garment snap.

The thing these types don't understand is that it doesn't snap unless you jerk the strike back, which reduces power, not enhances it.


Then you have the other school of thought, that prides themselves on knowing this so they like to do form and stomp the ground.... also wrong. If your weight is landing heavy on your front foot it is not going into the target.

Form can actually train bad habits if not watched closely by a keen-eyed expert...

Expert martial artists get that way by fighting. They may have their own private methods of training certain things but there's a reason to them.

Ray,
Your comments about snappy punches really got my attention, like most of your insight, likewise the stamping foot. I seem to remember you had some southern kf training in a school like that before you went into your mma stages? Was it SPM or PM or something like that? 5 Ancestors? You ended up pretty disillusioned.

Basically, you are right in recognising those flaws, but they are flaws, not proper use of the energy. They are 'theatre' that some people build into their training for whatever reasons. I have to admit, you nailed it.

Jerking back is just plain bad training, and not proper faat ging. The only jerking back is the natural flexation of the tendons, not the muscles, or a transition to something else following hyper-extension.

One thing for sure, if you don't have it, you can't teach it. I agree totally, these short arm schools can't be learned without a good Sifu - one who makes you hit stuff.

My personal favorite is people who do form with Phoenix Fist, but don't make the fist properly, and can't hit anything with it anyway.

All that being said, you can't learn to hit if you don't hit something, this is such a basic and fundamental question I'm really amused at the level of debate. We are one bored lot of time wasters, eh? LOL. I have yet to hear anybody claim training forms is the only way to learn to fight. Its like an attack on somebody who doesn't really exist, just a stereotype.

Forms are just a tool. A unique character to a form of exercise that makes it different from a bunch of alternatives. Just one small element of MA training, in my humble opinion. A great fun part, an intellectually stimulating part, a physically taxing part, but nowhere near the complete whole.

Does 5 and 7 star training count as forms or bag work. Clashing arms and legs?
How about wooden man? Count that as a bag - Bloody hard one! LOL.
Speed Ball? What about focus mitts? Mui Thai target bag held on the body? - kinda like heavy bag....you can hit it hard....? Many ways to skin a cat.

Heavy bag is really good for taking combinations out of forms and working the striking, hard. So is a Paper Bark tree, the 'old school' heavy bag.

I defy one person to stand up and say they hate the big bag, never use it and consider it spawn of the devil. (shaddup Uki...LOL)

I think we often compare beginner or novice attitudes on one side against seasoned, dedicated practitioners on another. And likewise, we attack practices that don't universally exist as if they were commonplace. Come to think about it, nothing more commonplace than mall Tae Kwon Do....and they hit stuff...

[Ray Pina]

Ray, I seem to remember you had some southern kf training in a school like that before you went into your mma stages? Was it SPM or PM or something like that? 5 Ancestors? You ended up pretty disillusioned.
..

I myself was guilty of the snappy double roundhouse kick myself... one low to the knee as a fake, one high to the head for no contact point karate as a kid. Push me, and I'd be on my a$$.

My whole life, no matter where I trained, you'd occasionally run into a guy with a couple years Tae Kwon Do who's new to the school and before class warms up by doing all this snapping. To let people know they know. Funny how people try to show their level and succeed but don't understand its not a good thing.

Anyway, when I met my internal master all this silliness became clear because all we really trained was mechanics and structure. And how to deliver power using the whole body. Then you see this snappy stuff and guys doing Hsing-I stomping back and forth but you see they're disconnected. They're not driving like a single unit off the back leg. Forget the $hit people try to pass off as Ba Gua. Forget about it. Its terrible.

The latest is this new guy at BJJ. He insists on hitting the speed bag during water breaks, after class what have you. He sets his arms up parallel in front of his face nose high and spins them like a blender.... yea, he's hitting it. And the bag's going pretty good..... he must be doing it right and getting something out of it:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

I
defy one person to stand up and say they hate the big bag, never use it and consider it spawn of the devil. (shaddup Uki...LOL)

eh... he would just say...'I use a railroad tie in my backyard to hit.'

thing about uki he just disagrees to disagree. there is no reasoning behind it just the fact he wants to disagree with people or be on the opposing side. I would probably be close to the truth in saying he's probably never even hit a heavy bag. Of course i've been wrong before, at least i admit that much.

[Dragonzbane76]

btw good post....:)



Anyway, when I met my internal master all this silliness became clear because all we really trained was mechanics and structure. And how to deliver power using the whole body. Then you see this snappy stuff and guys doing Hsing-I stomping back and forth but you see they're disconnected. They're not driving like a single unit off the back leg. Forget the $hit people try to pass off as Ba Gua. Forget about it. Its terrible.

[Ray Pina]

I


thing about uki he just disagrees to disagree. there is no reasoning behind it just the fact he wants to disagree with people or be on the opposing side.

I don't necessarily agree with that. In some aspects I think he's on the right track.

I love the heavy bag. A lot of good can come from it. But if all you hit is the heavy bag your punching MAY lack that chasing energy. If all you do is lift and strength train but don't incorporate breathing and relaxed flow into your game, you're a brainless beast who will be bested by someone 20% weaker than yourself but with a little more skill and relaxed flow.

The truth is finding a balance that works. And a balance that works is one that works.... not one that could work or should work or used to work. You have to work it.

I'm tempted to say that some things Uki says reveals he hasn't worked it. But I also believe he's a combat veteran. And guys like that often have experienced life changing things, see things, that they don't have to work it. They can become a fierce animal because they truly know the stakes.

As a martial artists, this is always the problem: dealing with that guy who is just shut off and full of rage.

[Yum Cha]

Don't you remember, a deer 'at' the corn out of his heavy bag. Anyway, juggling shot puts is pretty good for hand strength.

Uki just figuring out who's who.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the reply.
I understand what you mean. I used that same kick back in the day, always got a point! We were allowed to kick to the head, so sometimes it got a bit more.

I also like the low left front, followed by a sweeping right roundhouse head high on the jump, going over the low block.

Two best kicking combos, I reckon.

You know that thing about pulling back, speaking of hands that is, a good way to train out of that is to try punching though cardboard or even newspaper. set a box on a table, unstabalised and punch through a side of it without knocking it off the table. Thinner the paper, the harder it is. You HAVE to penetrate.

The proof comes when you hold a striking bag on your chest and people hit it. You can feel the different strikes. Some rock your feet, but don't hurt. Others don't move you, but hurt. Hurt is good, imho...

I don't know for sure, but I seem to remember hearing that the foot stomping has to do with chi gung as well... :confused: If I stomp my foot, its because its a foot stomp....:D


I myself was guilty of the snappy double roundhouse kick myself... one low to the knee as a fake, one high to the head for no contact point karate as a kid. Push me, and I'd be on my a$$.

My whole life, no matter where I trained, you'd occasionally run into a guy with a couple years Tae Kwon Do who's new to the school and before class warms up by doing all this snapping. To let people know they know. Funny how people try to show their level and succeed but don't understand its not a good thing.

Anyway, when I met my internal master all this silliness became clear because all we really trained was mechanics and structure. And how to deliver power using the whole body. Then you see this snappy stuff and guys doing Hsing-I stomping back and forth but you see they're disconnected. They're not driving like a single unit off the back leg. Forget the $hit people try to pass off as Ba Gua. Forget about it. Its terrible.

The latest is this new guy at BJJ. He insists on hitting the speed bag during water breaks, after class what have you. He sets his arms up parallel in front of his face nose high and spins them like a blender.... yea, he's hitting it. And the bag's going pretty good..... he must be doing it right and getting something out of it:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't necessarily agree with that. In some aspects I think he's on the right track.

like i said I've been wrong before...don't know him personally so i can only assume. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

don't know for sure, but I seem to remember hearing that the foot stomping has to do with chi gung as well... If I stomp my foot, its because its a foot stomp....

in all honesty I can say the forms I got the most from where the tension sets I learned years ago. If for nothing more than the work outs doing them. rooting power downward into the ground with stomps and over zealous movements doesn't mimic fighting to me. I agree with the above statement if you don't learn punching and kicking not chasing someone with it, it really, to me, has no use. you just learn a bad habit. from boxing and muay thai I stated to see the use of passing through a target, and not focusing so much on the movement itself, but the delivery.

[blackjesus]

Forms are important but if the sifu didn't teach them how to apply it in real fight. It doesn't work.

If you never punch a bag or anything you might not able to take the shock neither.

[David Jamieson]

Forms are important but if the sifu didn't teach them how to apply it in real fight. It doesn't work.

If you never punch a bag or anything you might not able to take the shock neither.

Oh, well thanks for putting it in a nutshell all neat and tidy for us there 2 post mcgee. :D

[Ray Pina]

Plus bags are just fun to hit. I can see mine right now but am avoiding it after hurting my already injured hand on it two weeks ago.... gave it a good front kick and lead lefted it on the come back. Forgot for a second that the pinky knuckle/finger is ****ed up.

[blackjesus]

Oh, well thanks for putting it in a nutshell all neat and tidy for us there 2 post mcgee. :D

*hiding at the corner and cry*

:(

[uki]

I can see mine right now but am avoiding it after hurting my already injured hand on it two weeks ago.... gave it a good front kick and lead lefted it on the come back. Forgot for a second that the pinky knuckle/finger is ****ed up.LOL... i see you even lose to your heavy-bag. :p

[Frost]

As much as I think Fedor is a great fighter, I believe he went strikeforce because of two reasons:

1. Dana white
2. Brock Lesnar

Dana White would find someone to do him in.

Brock Lesnar would be that man.

I don't think Fedor could take Lesnar. Lesnar is a monster. Period.

Why do people assume that a multiple national Sambo and Judo champ would be run over by someone who was a D1 wrestling champ, he has destroyed 2 other D1 champs in his time, and if a fight with Brock was ever signed he would have heavyweight Russian wrestlers to train with, who are the best in the world and who would destroy Brock in a wrestling match.

I am not saying that Fedor would walk all over Brock, but that he has the better stand up, and submissions and could if he wanted to work with even better and bigger wrestlers to get ready for the fight, and he went to strike force because of Dana and the deal he got, he has never feared an opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

At 40, you are no longer the oldest young man, you are the youngest old man.

Congratulations! LOL

A bevy of bodacious babes have been sent to you kind Sir !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ray,
Your comments about snappy punches really got my attention, like most of your insight, likewise the stamping foot. I seem to remember you had some southern kf training in a school like that before you went into your mma stages? Was it SPM or PM or something like that? 5 Ancestors? You ended up pretty disillusioned.

Basically, you are right in recognising those flaws, but they are flaws, not proper use of the energy. They are 'theatre' that some people build into their training for whatever reasons. I have to admit, you nailed it.

Jerking back is just plain bad training, and not proper faat ging. The only jerking back is the natural flexation of the tendons, not the muscles, or a transition to something else following hyper-extension.

One thing for sure, if you don't have it, you can't teach it. I agree totally, these short arm schools can't be learned without a good Sifu - one who makes you hit stuff.

My personal favorite is people who do form with Phoenix Fist, but don't make the fist properly, and can't hit anything with it anyway.

All that being said, you can't learn to hit if you don't hit something, this is such a basic and fundamental question I'm really amused at the level of debate. We are one bored lot of time wasters, eh? LOL. I have yet to hear anybody claim training forms is the only way to learn to fight. Its like an attack on somebody who doesn't really exist, just a stereotype.

Forms are just a tool. A unique character to a form of exercise that makes it different from a bunch of alternatives. Just one small element of MA training, in my humble opinion. A great fun part, an intellectually stimulating part, a physically taxing part, but nowhere near the complete whole.

Does 5 and 7 star training count as forms or bag work. Clashing arms and legs?
How about wooden man? Count that as a bag - Bloody hard one! LOL.
Speed Ball? What about focus mitts? Mui Thai target bag held on the body? - kinda like heavy bag....you can hit it hard....? Many ways to skin a cat.

Heavy bag is really good for taking combinations out of forms and working the striking, hard. So is a Paper Bark tree, the 'old school' heavy bag.

I defy one person to stand up and say they hate the big bag, never use it and consider it spawn of the devil. (shaddup Uki...LOL)

I think we often compare beginner or novice attitudes on one side against seasoned, dedicated practitioners on another. And likewise, we attack practices that don't universally exist as if they were commonplace. Come to think about it, nothing more commonplace than mall Tae Kwon Do....and they hit stuff...

Well said.
RE: the PE fist, I can't tell you how many guys have it as their "primary" fist and can't even hit a HB with 1/4 force much less enough force to do damage.
They try to fall back on the old, "its not how hard you hit, its where you hit", but the fact is, in a real fight, people just don't stand there and let you him them with out defending and fighting back.
I drill my PE fist and I drill it hard, I blast my padded wodden dummy with it, I forge it on my IP bag and I drill it hard on my HB.
I onced showed how will it can work on a MT buddy of mine, through a yellow pages, that left a nice welt on his chest for 3 days.
In regards to the stomp, I use it, picked it up from ITF TKD and further developed it and works fine for me.

[Ray Pina]

LOL... i see you even lose to your heavy-bag. :p


That's funny motherfu(ker:)

[uki]

That's funny motherfu(keri know. :p

[Yum Cha]

A bevy of bodacious babes have been sent to you kind Sir !!

Wow, a bevy! I might be gone for awhile guys....

[Lucas]

whats it take a guy to get a bevy around here?

[Yum Cha]

Well said.
RE: the PE fist, I can't tell you how many guys have it as their "primary" fist and can't even hit a HB with 1/4 force much less enough force to do damage.
They try to fall back on the old, "its not how hard you hit, its where you hit", but the fact is, in a real fight, people just don't stand there and let you him them with out defending and fighting back.
I drill my PE fist and I drill it hard, I blast my padded wodden dummy with it, I forge it on my IP bag and I drill it hard on my HB.
I onced showed how will it can work on a MT buddy of mine, through a yellow pages, that left a nice welt on his chest for 3 days.
In regards to the stomp, I use it, picked it up from ITF TKD and further developed it and works fine for me.

We use phoenix two ways (no, not like fish two ways, but I bet it would be good...)
As the drilling strike you mentioned, but also what we call 'nail fist', which is a version of a whipping hand, with the phoenix at the end, with some wrist articulation. Like a snakes tongue flick. Small weak targets.

Sanjuro, you know the phoenix fist cuts too, right? I mean, I've never cut anybody with it, but the boss has. You can slash someones face with it too, given the proper attacks - glancing attacks to the face is the basic technique. Its like the way an elbow cuts I reckon.

I forged it by starting with pushups, then working a heavy bag at the soft top, eye height, then working down the bag. I also condition it on hard stuff, tapping at 10% power, on stone or hardwood, just until it hurts. Its more for the knuckle than the fist structure. Making the fist and squeezing it with the other hand is and easy way to train it too.

I have to admit, I use it like a knife more than a trucheon. I can't hit a HB full force, and probably just 75% - I am impressed at your accomplishment. I understand what you did to get there.

Personally, targets I prefer for don't need full power, they need speed. Because I'm big, I always focussed on speed techniques, you know, always train the weakness...
I've always been surprised by the effectiveness of even 20% power.

Funny story - chi gung master was putting on a show at the Uni Gym. Letting people hit him in the stomach. One of the boys was there and asked if he could try.

Chi gung master didn't like fung ahn choi......he went all red and got cranky....LOL...

All fun and frolic aside, this guy is one of the local Chi Gung Gurus (notice the use of Guru, not Sifu ;) And he was taking the hits from the college boys. But he couldn't take an average Phoenix fist. Shades of Shaolin v Pak Mei.....<evil grin>

[KTS]

ah man, the phoenix eye is some plain old badassery. it really doesnt seem to take much force to hurt someone with it. and it causes this nice, sharp, piercing pain. like being stabbed the round end of a pen.

here is an awesome exercise to build up good structure from the elbow downwards to the fist formation itself. as mentioned above, there are a number of great push up type exercises that are excellent to practice for this.

but, you can start on your bed. yes, your bed! you dont even have to get into a full push up form. just form the fists, and set the PE fists on the bed, and gradually send your weight through your arm into the bed.

be careful with that as you can easily sprain a wrist if your forearms are not strong enough or if you are misaligned. so this is one way i started to make this fist formation stronger and gain confidence in how well i could use it.

i have found the PE fist extremely useful. i love to do it with the drilling fist, works great with a sinking or smashing fist like beng chuan. and as mentioned, u can use it like a hook or kinda like a whip to "cut."
the mid-knuckles can be used like this. try this, tap your mid-knucks on the top side of your hand. hurts, dont it?

[Lokhopkuen]

ah man, the phoenix eye is some plain old badassery. it really doesnt seem to take much force to hurt someone with it. and it causes this nice, sharp, piercing pain. like being stabbed the round end of a pen.

here is an awesome exercise to build up good structure from the elbow downwards to the fist formation itself. as mentioned above, there are a number of great push up type exercises that are excellent to practice for this.

but, you can start on your bed. yes, your bed! you dont even have to get into a full push up form. just form the fists, and set the PE fists on the bed, and gradually send your weight through your arm into the bed.

be careful with that as you can easily sprain a wrist if your forearms are not strong enough or if you are misaligned. so this is one way i started to make this fist formation stronger and gain confidence in how well i could use it.

i have found the PE fist extremely useful. i love to do it with the drilling fist, works great with a sinking or smashing fist like beng chuan. and as mentioned, u can use it like a hook or kinda like a whip to "cut."
the mid-knuckles can be used like this. try this, tap your mid-knucks on the top side of your hand. hurts, dont it?

Be careful! Dragon Ball zee will start whining about how the techniques used in accu-point striking are useless to him and his fantasy MMA world domination league:rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

We use phoenix two ways (no, not like fish two ways, but I bet it would be good...)
As the drilling strike you mentioned, but also what we call 'nail fist', which is a version of a whipping hand, with the phoenix at the end, with some wrist articulation. Like a snakes tongue flick. Small weak targets.

Sanjuro, you know the phoenix fist cuts too, right? I mean, I've never cut anybody with it, but the boss has. You can slash someones face with it too, given the proper attacks - glancing attacks to the face is the basic technique. Its like the way an elbow cuts I reckon.

I forged it by starting with pushups, then working a heavy bag at the soft top, eye height, then working down the bag. I also condition it on hard stuff, tapping at 10% power, on stone or hardwood, just until it hurts. Its more for the knuckle than the fist structure. Making the fist and squeezing it with the other hand is and easy way to train it too.

I have to admit, I use it like a knife more than a trucheon. I can't hit a HB full force, and probably just 75% - I am impressed at your accomplishment. I understand what you did to get there.

Personally, targets I prefer for don't need full power, they need speed. Because I'm big, I always focussed on speed techniques, you know, always train the weakness...
I've always been surprised by the effectiveness of even 20% power.

Funny story - chi gung master was putting on a show at the Uni Gym. Letting people hit him in the stomach. One of the boys was there and asked if he could try.

Chi gung master didn't like fung ahn choi......he went all red and got cranky....LOL...

All fun and frolic aside, this guy is one of the local Chi Gung Gurus (notice the use of Guru, not Sifu ;) And he was taking the hits from the college boys. But he couldn't take an average Phoenix fist. Shades of Shaolin v Pak Mei.....<evil grin>

Some systems back up, root and let you run your tender parts in to it, while others form a bridge while coiling and then explode in to the target. I have developed some pretty effective synthesis from both schools of thought.

[Lokhopkuen]

Oh, well thanks for putting it in a nutshell all neat and tidy for us there 2 post mcgee. :D

Rolling the old red welcome mat of encouragement again their David?:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Rolling the old red welcome mat of encouragement again their David?:rolleyes:

depends. Is this an alias? :p

[Dragonzbane76]

Be careful! Dragon Ball zee will start whining about how the techniques used in accu-point striking are useless to him and his fantasy MMA world domination league

If you want me to then I can..:cool:

I really don't need to say much about it. It speaks for itself as a very useless thing.

Hey I have an Idea you could come over to my fantasy mma gym world with your fantasy chi ball fire blasting arsenal of techniques and we'll discuss further the uselessness of things.

[Frost]

As a former heavy user of the PE fist and a current MMA guy can i chime in as well please :D

i rairly if ever use it in stand up these days, even though mine was forged using the traditional methods, push ups, striking the bag. iron palm methods and i can still do alot of damage with it

i simply find it easier and quicker to form a natural fist especially when moving from stirking to clinching to defending take downs.

Now on the ground, especially when on top and striking the body i find it very useful im causing pain in a few small amount of space.

[Dragonzbane76]

There are so many easier techniques to use than PE. Why would you risk breaking your finger or hand trying to hit someone with that when you could just punch.

On the ground i'm not a big fan of pressure point apps. they could have there uses I guess, but a high school wrestler would have no problem avoiding such things so why use them. To me movement is more important on the ground than trying to get someone with PPs. guess it's a personal pref. but when I grapple I'm more worried about subs. and def. than anything else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We use phoenix two ways (no, not like fish two ways, but I bet it would be good...)
As the drilling strike you mentioned, but also what we call 'nail fist', which is a version of a whipping hand, with the phoenix at the end, with some wrist articulation. Like a snakes tongue flick. Small weak targets.

Sanjuro, you know the phoenix fist cuts too, right? I mean, I've never cut anybody with it, but the boss has. You can slash someones face with it too, given the proper attacks - glancing attacks to the face is the basic technique. Its like the way an elbow cuts I reckon.

I forged it by starting with pushups, then working a heavy bag at the soft top, eye height, then working down the bag. I also condition it on hard stuff, tapping at 10% power, on stone or hardwood, just until it hurts. Its more for the knuckle than the fist structure. Making the fist and squeezing it with the other hand is and easy way to train it too.

I have to admit, I use it like a knife more than a trucheon. I can't hit a HB full force, and probably just 75% - I am impressed at your accomplishment. I understand what you did to get there.

Personally, targets I prefer for don't need full power, they need speed. Because I'm big, I always focussed on speed techniques, you know, always train the weakness...
I've always been surprised by the effectiveness of even 20% power.

Funny story - chi gung master was putting on a show at the Uni Gym. Letting people hit him in the stomach. One of the boys was there and asked if he could try.

Chi gung master didn't like fung ahn choi......he went all red and got cranky....LOL...

All fun and frolic aside, this guy is one of the local Chi Gung Gurus (notice the use of Guru, not Sifu ;) And he was taking the hits from the college boys. But he couldn't take an average Phoenix fist. Shades of Shaolin v Pak Mei.....<evil grin>

Yep. started with the push-ups too myself, to work the structure.
First with a towel and when I got up to 10, with a "rag" and then up to 10 I went to bare floor, wood first and then concrete.
Jow is a must as you know.
Yes, I do that "wrist snapping" PE fist also.
I tend to use it in straight line attacks, I feel that the dragon fist (middle finger knuckle) tends to work better on "hooks" to the body, but that is just me.
I don't use it as a "pressure point" strike though it is, like all strikes, always aimed at the right places.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some systems back up, root and let you run your tender parts in to it, while others form a bridge while coiling and then explode in to the target. I have developed some pretty effective synthesis from both schools of thought.

I tend to "coil and explode" off the bridges that I make/are offered.
Launch it our from about no more that a foot away, preferably closer.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As a former heavy user of the PE fist and a current MMA guy can i chime in as well please :D

i rairly if ever use it in stand up these days, even though mine was forged using the traditional methods, push ups, striking the bag. iron palm methods and i can still do alot of damage with it

i simply find it easier and quicker to form a natural fist especially when moving from stirking to clinching to defending take downs.

Now on the ground, especially when on top and striking the body i find it very useful im causing pain in a few small amount of space.

Yes, it works very well when you are in someone's guard ;)
with me, it tends to "come out" when I close a certain distance, its a very naturla thing.
When I am "outside" I tend to strike with the regular fist, but when I close the PE fist comes out naturally.
My old HK sifu used to use it only as a "coup de grace" type of fist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are so many easier techniques to use than PE. Why would you risk breaking your finger or hand trying to hit someone with that when you could just punch.

On the ground i'm not a big fan of pressure point apps. they could have there uses I guess, but a high school wrestler would have no problem avoiding such things so why use them. To me movement is more important on the ground than trying to get someone with PPs. guess it's a personal pref. but when I grapple I'm more worried about subs. and def. than anything else.

I used to think that way, untill I fought a guy that had a well "forged" pe fist and nurse my ribs and shoulder for a couple of weeks.
The PE fist is a force multiplier, think of it as your own personal "kubotan".
It has nothing to do with PP strikes, well...I should say it has little to do with them.
Think the damage you coudl do with a 3/4" wooden dowel in your hand, or a blunt "push dagger", that is what the PE fist can be like.

[Dragonzbane76]

Yes, it works very well when you are in someone's guard

maybe if the fight has become stagnet, but most of the ground game i've experienced moves a lot.

Everyone there own i guess.