Starting iron palm

[Lucas]

Im looking to start a long term ip program.

1. I have not been able to find anyone near me to learn from. ie: done internet searches with my city cant find anyone. not sure how else to locate someone i can visit in person.

2. Is it recommended to not begin with a program that is bought online?

3. Does anyone know anyone near portland, oregon that can demonstrate/teach their ip, i dont drive but id be more than willing to take a train up to seattle as well.

4. Thanks in advance for any help :D

[David Jamieson]

It is probably best to have a teacher for the beginning. why? because there isn't going to be any feedback that you need.

for example, 'dropping hand' should be explained, shown, corrected. a dvd can't do that. there are small adjustments to angles, decreases and increase in forces applied and so on.

you could gather quite a bit of information, but someone showing you and correcting you for the first segments is pretty important in my view of this gong practice.

once you're on your way, practice alone is fine. If you really want it, you'll make that effort to go and find a teacher.

Mind you, you never know, maybe someone has an easy to follow program?

Dale? :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Im looking to start a long term ip program.

1. I have not been able to find anyone near me to learn from. ie: done internet searches with my city cant find anyone. not sure how else to locate someone i can visit in person.

2. Is it recommended to not begin with a program that is bought online?

3. Does anyone know anyone near portland, oregon that can demonstrate/teach their ip, i dont drive but id be more than willing to take a train up to seattle as well.

4. Thanks in advance for any help :D

PM Dale Dugas he will be able to guide you.

[Lucas]

sweet deal.

he goes by boston bagua right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

sweet deal.

he goes by boston bagua right?

Correct.
Some of MY IP I got from Dale, who got it from Da Man, Gene Chicoine.
Dale's IP is top notch and his Jow is great and he has some nice packages available.

[David Jamieson]

Correct.
Some of MY IP I got from Dale, who got it from Da Man, Gene Chicoine.
Dale's IP is top notch and his Jow is great and he has some nice packages available.

I think your comments on Dale's package is a little to familiar.

:P

[Lucas]

part of my reasoning is have a realisic approach as i get older. having well conditioned hands will let me have some compensation as i get older for degenerating athleticism.

this is from a self defense stand point.

also i want to get into breaking things, it looks fun :D

besides, when im 65, my ip will go well with my cane sword. ;)

[uki]

besides, when im 65, my ip will go well with my cane sword.only martially dumb guys mess with 65 year olds.

[Lucas]

especially when they carry cane swords!

[uki]

especially when they carry cane swords!especially when they think they are fragile...

[Lucas]

especially when they think they are fragile...

hehe ya. there has been a rash of young adults and teens assaulting elderly people at remote locations of our MAX (city train/trolly system), and beating them severly.

**** like that ****es me off, i always wonder why im never around things like that...


anyhow, working towards that not being me. they will either get stabbed, shot, or broked. or ill get mine i guess......

[uki]

i always wonder why im never around things like that...an old cherokee saying goes... "if you notice something that needs to be done, obviously you are the one chosen to do it."

[Lucas]

well....when is it my turn?!?!

;)

i need a batman suit.....hmm halloween is fast approaching. :D

[uki]

just don't shower for a few day's, wear clothes that smell, and look abit haggard... those who prey on weakness will fall for the ages old trick. :D

[Lucas]

just don't shower for a few day's, wear clothes that smell, and look abit haggard... those who prey on weakness will fall for the ages old trick. :D

thats how i used to roll. my job prevents that though.

this town that i live in is full of posers. pretty much every time ive stepped to someone acting up, the situation is disovled.

portland is full of pussies and hippies.

:D

[Lucas]

lol wow the word D!ck is sensored but pussies isnt?

sweeeet

[uki]

portland is full of pussies and hippies.hippies are pussies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did my part trying to "save the world" and then I realized the world doesn't want saving.

[goju]

i think i remember hearing something about in proper ip training that in the first months you cant eat any fried foods or have sex:eek::eek::eek::eek:

ill stick to the makiwara:D:D:D:D

[Lucas]

i think i remember hearing something about in proper ip training that in the first months you cant eat any fried foods or have sex:eek::eek::eek::eek:

ill stick to the makiwara:D:D:D:D

im fine with that. ive been celebate for years. dont fall down laughing now...;)

[goju]

im fine with that. ive been celebate for years. dont fall down laughing now...;)

lol:D:D i was interested but some of us have nymphomaniac girlfriends who like to cook tasty junk food:D so ill pass

unless you can still get the ip to a lesser degree if you dont follow those steps
which is fine with me the makiwaras allready giving me brutal punches i dont need to be killing folks lol

[David Jamieson]

i think i remember hearing something about in proper ip training that in the first months you cant eat any fried foods or have sex:eek::eek::eek::eek:

ill stick to the makiwara:D:D:D:D

You can have sex, you just can't expel your jing. :)

fried foods are crappy anyway. they make you fat and shiftless and are hard on your vascular and circulatory system.

:)

[GeneChing]

I am bound by duty to plug our Iron Body Master Kit (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvdk-at102.html) here. Somebody's got to pay the electric bills. ;)

I'll also mention our cover story on our last Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=797), which had an interesting take on Iron Palm. Read Iron Palm and Wolf's Hair Brush (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=799) by Gene Ching with Gigi Oh.

Earlier this week I was having a bout of insomnia and wound up watching Oprah on late night. I never watch Oprah, but she was at the Dallas country fair and there was this fried foods competition. This one dude made his entire living just working at the fair for a few weeks selling fried food. He was a competition title holder and that year he was entering a new treat - fried butter. :eek:

[goju]

gene be honest you watch oprah every day:D

[goju]

You can have sex, you just can't expel your jing. :)
:)

lol that can be easier said than done:D

[David Jamieson]

lol that can be easier said than done:D

It takes practice. don't forget your brain is your biggest sexual organ. It controls everything.

Master your mind. :)

[Boston Bagua]

Brothers,

Thanks for the kind words.

Lucas, check you PMs as well.

My program is rather Qi Gong heavy compared to some others that are more into hitting the bag and not training the Qi or intention which in my honest opinion much more important.

You can come visit and pick up the basics with corrections in one afternoon, and be able to start training with a corrected structure that will see you have less problems than if you tried on your own.

Feel free to pm me or email me at info@bostonbaguazhang.com

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can have sex, you just can't expel your jing. :)

fried foods are crappy anyway. they make you fat and shiftless and are hard on your vascular and circulatory system.

:)

Quite correct, no "emissions" for the first 100 days.

[David43515]

Quite correct, no "emissions" for the first 100 days.

When I started they suggested no liquer as well.

[TenTigers]

I got the same advice from my Sifu. "No Liquor." he said. I later found out that due to his Asian accent, I completely misunderstood what he was saying.
What he actually said was,"No, lick her!"
which in my mind, isn't exactly fair...

[goju]

i got the same advice from my sifu. "no liquor." he said. I later found out that due to his asian accent, i completely misunderstood what he was saying.
What he actually said was,"no, lick her!"
which in my mind, isn't exactly fair...

ahhahahahahahahahaahhahha :D:D:D:D

[YouKnowWho]

This is from the 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Damm!t, damm!t”.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.

[Lokhopkuen]

Dale is defiantly the man to ask, I've seen some of his demos and he has cultivated the "effortless touch". Lucas just take it slow, research carefully and avoid the extreme and the absurd. The basics are centered around conditioning, linking your hands to your center and developing "the touch".

My two cents, keep the change.

[Boston Bagua]

Thanks for the kinds words brother.

[Lucas]

Thanks much for the advice. I'm forward to meeting and learning from Dale Shifu early next year. This is going to be a new and fun phase in my martial arts journey, I'm much looking forward to beginning.

I'll likely revisit this thread again for updates and questions/comments.

[goju]

This is from the 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Damm!t, damm!t”.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.

yep comes down to evasion i dont care how good your iron palm is if you cant hit your target

and thats why i feel evasion is the most important technique of all in martial arts

[Lucas]

yep comes down to evasion i dont care how good your iron palm is if you cant hit your target

and thats why i feel evasion is the most important technique of all in martial arts

thats what that guy gets for doing only iron skills. you'd think it common sense to spar regularly if you are going to competatively be fighting....

i guess he should have practiced more common sense above all else.

[Boston Bagua]

It is interesting that some people out there believe if they only train their iron palm, or their iron vest, or iron shin and neglect ALL the other aspects of combat, kicking, punching, blocking, avoiding, throwing, neutralizing, that you can come up against someone who is hell bent on hurting/killing you is astounding.

Train all skills, change it up to keep it fresh, but train all that you have.

[YouKnowWho]

A guy bow to a CMA master and asked if the master could comment on his skill. After the master knocked his head, he ran several steps, jump up in the air, and use a flying side kick to kick his foot right on a tree trunk. The CMA master smiled and said, "Excellent skill. There is a tree 10 miles away from here. I'm sure you can kick that tree just like you did on this one."

I'll always remember that story for the rest of my life. IMO (I did train iron palm in my life), you don't need iron palm ability to knock someone down. It depends where you hit and not how hard you hit. Iron palm training "may" cause arthritis and glaucoma (if you train your finger tip) when you get old. Is it worthy?


i feel evasion is the most important technique of all in martial arts
Agree! If your opponent tries everything he can and still cannot touch or hurt you, he may feel discourage and quit. IMO, that's the best ending for any fight - fight end and nobody get hurt, no law suit, no jail time.

[goju]

oh out of curiosity why do some schools only train the dominant hand for ip and others both is there a reason

[YouKnowWho]

If you ruin one hand, you will still have a good one left. I know someone after he had trained ip, his hand could not even hold a pair of chopstick.

[Frost]

If you ruin one hand, you will still have a good one left. I know someone after he had trained ip, his hand could not even hold a pair of chopstick.


I know a few people too who have limited use of their hands due to IP training.
Makes you wonder why people in this day and age bother with this type of training with the potential for permanent physical issues if done wrong, or even if done right.

I can understand why they were done in the past when people’s life’s were on the line and needed every edge they could get, but is it really necessary to do the hand conditioning IP, iron body stuff now? Why risk damaging your hand so badly you can’t use it?

[Boston Bagua]

common sense Iron Palm is out there.

I practice it and have no issues.

I have incredible dexterity and still have decent ability to use my hand as a weapon or to heal by needling with acupuncture needles.

There is no need to train thousands of reps a day. I also do not train my IP to break bricks. I train it to have a weapon on me that can be used when needed.

Its more about the medicine and the Qi gong anyway when you seriously examine the training.

I do not train my fingertips on bags. I train them in buckets of beans. Different medicines and qi qong to make sure not to injure the shi xuan points on the ends of the finger tips.

[Frost]

I know there is common sense IP is out there (I was taught a fair bit of iron palm and iron body) , but there are also a lot of frauds and guys selling long distance correspondence courses, if you can train with a reputable master who can watch over you and correct any mistakes then that’s all well and good, but it not why take the risk? Who needs to condition their hand to such an extend now? most peoples hands can become formidable weapons by simply hitting heavy bags, knuckle push ups etc

As I said I can understand that people who put there life’s on the line needed to do extreme conditioning and training, but is it necessary in modern times to follow their example?

[sanjuro_ronin]

IP gives you something that you don't get with conventional "forging" and that is relaxed impact force WITH follow through.
I could break slabs and bricks before IP but they were "brute force breaks", pure and simple, my hands were also a bit of a "mess".
My first exposure to IP was the Hung Kuen IP and, I have to admit, I was not a big fan, I dropped it after about 2 years.
Years after that I picked up the IP from GM Chicoine, first via Steven Hamp and then via our very own Dale Dugas.
The difference was night and day.
When I re-trained my HK with my old HK sifu he comment on my IP training and was very pleased with it.
I have NO issues with my hands and they look less forged than before the IP training.
Truly the Jow and the qigong do make quite a difference.
Not to ride Dale's kilt covered nuts, but his Jow is just THAT ****ING GOOD.
I do NOT condition the fingers, its just not part of my arsenal, but I do condition the PE (phoenix-eye) fist and I can say this, never has my PE fist been so good.

[Boston Bagua]

Thanks Brother.

I am very glad I can offer real medicine to those seeking it.

[goju]

yeah im gonna be buying some herbs from dales company to use in my makiwara training as well:D its extremely well priced

[Lokhopkuen]

yeah im gonna be buying some herbs from dales company to use in my makiwara training as well:D its extremely well priced

Incorrigible....:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

yeah im gonna be buying some herbs from dales company to use in my makiwara training as well:D its extremely well priced

makiwara is inferior to iron palm training techniques.
Primitive by comparison.

Just noting it. You should switch. I've done both and makiwara in retrospect was a waste of time comparatively. But, if it's what you want and all you know, by all means, go right ahead. :)

[goju]

oh i have to respectfully disagree
while i know the iron palm is a very useful and powerful training method i know for a fact my strike from makiwara training is just as powerful as alot of peoples iron palm :D

the methods may be crude in comparison to the chinese way but if youve ever felt a punch from a karateka whos been doing makiwara training for most of their life youll understand:D

but if the oppurtunity is present i would not mind learning ip but being that theres an incredible shortage of good martial art schools in colorado ill have to wait until move next year:D

[Lucas]

i just prevented a bank robbery *flex*

[goju]

i just prevented a bank robbery *flex*

did the bank robber happen to looks like this?

[Lucas]

lol, not quite. he's been apprehended. another serial bank robber off the street :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh i have to respectfully disagree
while i know the iron palm is a very useful and powerful training method i know for a fact my strike from makiwara training is just as powerful as alot of peoples iron palm :D

the methods may be crude in comparison to the chinese way but if youve ever felt a punch from a karateka whos been doing makiwara training for most of their life youll understand:D

but if the oppurtunity is present i would not mind learning ip but being that theres an incredible shortage of good martial art schools in colorado ill have to wait until move next year:D

To quote our mutual Sensei, Morio Higaonna, " Makiwara is but the beginning stage of tettsui-te ( iron hand) training".
We had a discussion about CMA IP methods and that is what he said.
Of course he was into CMA IP methods so perhaps he was a tad bias.
;)

[Boston Bagua]

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv155/Boston_Baguazhang/vlcsnap-41035-1.png

makiwara training will not develop this kind of power.

I have the softest hands if and when you ever meet me, but I can hit very hard without having disfigured and obviously forged hands.

[YouKnowWho]

The IP can train your:

- flat palm
- back of your palm
- palm edge
- palm heel
- fingers

Not sure Makiwara can train you all those areas. If you put Makiwara flat on the table, a Makiwara, telephone book, or IP bag won't make much difference IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The advantage that a makiwara has over typical IP training is that the makiwars, because you are hitting it in a more "direct" way, strengthens the wrist, elbow and shoulder in lines with the strike being performed.
Of course this is "irrelevant" if you are doing any kind of serious HB work along with your IP.
Or doing hanging IP work.

[David Jamieson]

makiwara has no more value than a good heavy bag.

it will callous up your knuckles and you will self correct your structure so you don't have poorly positioned wrists when you strike it.

It is rarely laid flat though. usually it is attached to a wall or a post.

It is predominantly for developing the straight punch and hardening the rams head of the fist.

It is definitely not the same as iron skills for the hands that you find in tcma.
Not even using the direct method!

[goju]

To quote our mutual Sensei, Morio Higaonna, " Makiwara is but the beginning stage of tettsui-te ( iron hand) training".
We had a discussion about CMA IP methods and that is what he said.
Of course he was into CMA IP methods so perhaps he was a tad bias.
;)

oh i know and there are bag striking methods in okinawans karate as well:D even with makiwara there is a way to go about striking it alot of people assume you just essentially hold your breath tense up and pound your fist into a board in the ground with out any thought but it is generally more complex than that

[goju]

you can train all areas of your hand with the makiwara:D

also the chinese have other methods of conditioning than the ip bag even ones that are generally crude like tree punching

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh i know and there are bag striking methods in okinawans karate as well:D even with makiwara there is a way to go about striking it alot of people assume you just essentially hold your breath tense up and pound your fist into a board in the ground with out any thought but it is generally more complex than that

You just mentioned 3 things NEVER to do with makiwara ( or Ip for that matter) training:
Hold your breath,
tense
Pound

That is all that is wrong with ANY type of "forging" process.

[David Jamieson]

You just mentioned 3 things NEVER to do with makiwara ( or Ip for that matter) training:
Hold your breath,
tense
Pound

That is all that is wrong with ANY type of "forging" process.

well to be fair, he didn't say he did these things, he said this is what people assume makiwara training is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well to be fair, he didn't say he did these things, he said this is what people assume makiwara training is.

Oh, I know, I just wanted to point out how wrong those things are.
I didn't mean to insinuate that groin ache thought those things were correct.

[David Jamieson]

lol. "groin ache"?

:p

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Jackie Chan on a German challenge show. The challenge: break 3 spacered concrete slabs (:rolleyes:) ... without breaking the raw egg he is holding in his breaking hand. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsOcTp5it8&feature=related