Question about Chi

[Yoshiyahu]

When holding the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Posture(Stance) the Kuit Kuen says:


Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....

[chusauli]

The Dan Tian is filled with good sleep, proper nutrition, less stress, healthy emotions, proper exercise and avoiding activities that drain the Dan Tian (Excessive sex, strong emotions like hatred, jealousy, etc., injury, prolonged illness).

Qi is distributed naturally through the training process and with the good health.

"Distribute the strength to all parts of the body" also refers to using the intention (Yee Nim), to make movements - these in turn move the qi and blood.

These are exactly what the Kuen Kuit mean in the Chinese medicine/metaphysical sense.

[IRONMONK]

Is chi released when you f@rt?

[Yoshiyahu]

How does one make movements of the Chi using the Intention or Yi Nim?


"Distribute the strength to all parts of the body" also refers to using the intention (Yee Nim), to make movements - these in turn move the qi and blood.

[chusauli]

Is chi released when you f@rt?

Yes, foul Chi...aka Xie Qi (Evil Qi). :)

In some, it is more foul than others. It depends on your diet.

[chusauli]

How does one make movements of the Chi using the Intention or Yi Nim?

Its automatic.

No Qi = no life energy.

The Yi Nian (Yee Nim) is guided by the Shen (spirit) which is housed in the Heart. Heart is the like the Emperor or Ruler.

Shen is clear = clear purpose, good life, clear mind.

Shen not clear = poor purpose in life, wandering about aimlessly, mind unclear.

You can clearly see how people fit in life.

[Hendrik]

How does one make movements of the Chi using the Intention or Yi Nim?

if you are impotent then you dont have enough Chi even if you have intention.

If you are not impotent, then you dont have to ask me.

[Yoshiyahu]

if you are impotent then you dont have enough Chi even if you have intention.

If you are not impotent, then you dont have to ask me.

I am asking Robert actually...

So Robert how does one direct the chi flow by use of Yi(Yee). Please explain what the Yi is. What does it mean by intention? Is it simply thinking or meditating on the energy traveling to your limbs and and other extremities?

I am not asking about Chi cultivation or storing Shen. But what I am asking about is actually making the chi move to where you want it to go via the intention (YI).

Please give detail to how this is accomplish?

[Hendrik]

I am asking Robert actually...

So Robert how does one direct the chi flow by use of Yi(Yee). Please explain what the Yi is. What does it mean by intention? Is it simply thinking or meditating on the energy traveling to your limbs and and other extremities?

I am not asking about Chi cultivation or storing Shen. But what I am asking about is actually making the chi move to where you want it to go via the intention (YI).

Please give detail to how this is accomplish?



hahaha, I have already told you the answer. Why think too much?

Just will it . It is a simple nature phenomenon and why makes it sooo complicated.

[Yoshiyahu]

hahaha, I have already told you the answer. Why think too much?

Just will it . It is a simple nature phenomenon and why makes it sooo complicated.

how do you Will it?

Please explain by what is meant by Will or Intent?


is it really that simple?

[Hendrik]

how do you Will it?

Please explain by what is meant by Will or Intent?


is it really that simple?



I keep telling you you just speculate too much with you mind.

Reality is not as what your complicated logical thinking.

If things are not simple how the heck is one going to use it in a high speed martial art action where you have no time to think.

[Yoshiyahu]

I keep telling you you just speculate too much with you mind.

Reality is not as what your complicated logical thinking.

If things are not simple how the heck is one going to use it in a high speed martial art action where you have no time to think.

So simply tell us the answer Hendrik..instead of saying go basai tell us the answer?

[Hendrik]

So simply tell us the answer Hendrik..instead of saying go basai tell us the answer?

This is the last time I am going to tell you.

The analogy is as for those who know how to swim. they just swim. and answers and ideas for those who have never going down to the sea means nothing at all.


You need to Baisi because from Zero to be able to Swim in the Sea, there are lots of effort spending in practice that simple stroke.

[goju]

cocentrating breathing with your stomach instead of your chest focuses chi down to your dan tien doesnt it?

[chusauli]

I am asking Robert actually...

So Robert how does one direct the chi flow by use of Yi(Yee). Please explain what the Yi is. What does it mean by intention? Is it simply thinking or meditating on the energy traveling to your limbs and and other extremities?

I am not asking about Chi cultivation or storing Shen. But what I am asking about is actually making the chi move to where you want it to go via the intention (YI).

Please give detail to how this is accomplish?

Hendrik is very clear with his answers.

The Shen (Spirit) clear, you manifest your intentions. You want Tan Sao, you do Tan Sao. You want Pak Sao, you do Pak Sao.

The Shen wills, intention follows, intention brings forth Qi and blood in movement automatically.

Yi is intention, thought, idea. You have the idea of a Tan Sao, and your body moves into Tan Sao. You don't have to think or concentrate, you just do.

A person comes to me with a headache, I put a needle in the body and have intention to clear the headache. The patient's body immediately responds, and has Qi and blood flow to the area I intend.

Is your intention in the wrist, palm, fingers? Where do you will it? Unless you have some neurological disorder, you just move.

Hope this helps.

And there's nothing wrong with asking your sifu. If they are a sifu, they understand the metaphoric language of Chinese Medicine physiology.

[chusauli]

cocentrating breathing with your stomach instead of your chest focuses chi down to your dan tien doesnt it?

That's a component of it, but filling the dan tian up is dependent upon your health.

If you had a big night partying and releasing gobs of Kidney Jing, your Dan Tian is sure to be more vacuous and empty. :)

[duende]

If you had a big night partying and releasing gobs of Kidney Jing, your Dan Tian is sure to be more vacuous and empty. :)

That sounds like a man speaking from experience! :D ;)

[kung fu fighter]

The Shen (Spirit) clear, you manifest your intentions. You want Tan Sao, you do Tan Sao. You want Pak Sao, you do Pak Sao.

The Shen wills, intention follows, intention brings forth Qi and blood in movement automatically.

Yi is intention, thought, idea. You have the idea of a Tan Sao, and your body moves into Tan Sao. You don't have to think or concentrate, you just do.

Is your intention in the wrist, palm, fingers? Where do you will it? Unless you have some neurological disorder, you just move.



So basically we all do this naturally just by moving about regardless if we know kung fu or not, so why does Hendrik make such a big deal about it about dissolve and flexflow no structure:)

[CFT]

So basically we all do this naturally just by moving about regardless if we know kung fu or not, so why does Hendrik make such a big deal about it about dissolve and flexflow no structure:)You don't just get to that point by mindless movement. If we could get there naturally then it wouldn't be an issue.

As infants we "learn" to walk. As adults we don't consciously think about the action of walking (maybe if we are competitive speedwalkers). If we need to step around obstacles, step over potholes, etc. we do not need to consciously think about the task only the goal.

I don't think for a second that anything we do in Wing Chun, or any martial art is natural. I guess the trick is to make the unnatural natural. To achieve that level of naturalness that is in our everyday motion.

Another example is driving a car. Possibly the most complicated piece of machinery that most people will operate on a daily basis. Nothing natural about it whatsoever. However, after many years of driving the mechanical skills of driving fade into the background and the task is more about navigation, anticipation, etc. How many people have driven from A to B on a daily commute and not remembered the journey?

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for your answers

Robert

CFT

Gojo

kung fu fighter


Hendrik never mind i want asked you to explain anything more...I just tell you...

Chusli what is Kidney Jing globs?

[Hendrik]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=968208&postcount=12

[HumbleWCGuy]

The correct question is... Does chi exist? The answer is NO.

Martial arts instructors who claim Chi are usually on of these:

1. Delusional
2. Looking to keep students through the promise of magical power at some point.
3. Narcissist personality disorder sufferers looking to to be worshiped by students.


4. Less often... use chi as an alternate explanation for bio-mechanical processes.

[Hendrik]

The correct question is... Does chi exist? The answer is NO.

Martial arts instructors who claim Chi are usually on of these:

1. Delusional
2. Looking to keep students through the promise of magical power at some point.
3. Narcissist personality disorder sufferers looking to to be worshiped by students.


4. Less often... use chi as an alternate explanation for bio-mechanical processes.




Again, with an analytical model, you are absolutely right.

However, for those who practice chinese internal art knows, when the physical is loose up, the mind is quiet, and the breathing is nature, Qi got to surface.

That is a phenomenon of a living system where no analytical model cant over write and cant understood by analytical model which is keep disecting element to nothing left.

and the IMA's interest is to lead to the Zhen Qi's surface and use it. That 80% of the people doesnt know and 90% of the people doesnt reach that state.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Again, with an analytical model, you are absolutely right.

However, for those who practice chinese internal art knows, when the physical is loose up, the mind is quiet, and the breathing is nature, Qi got to surface.

That is a phenomenon of a living system where no analytical model cant over write and cant understood by analytical model which is keep disecting element to nothing left.

and the IMA's interest is to lead to the Zhen Qi's surface and use it.

Although I will say from my perspective that there are real benefits to practicing internal arts. I just get concerned that hucksters will take advantage of someone who is naive.

[Hendrik]

Although I will say from my perspective that there are real benefits to practicing internal arts. I just get concerned that hucksters will take advantage of someone who is naive.



in fact it is rare to see a real deal sifu, but we cant shut down every one right?

[Jim Roselando]

HumbleWCGuy wrote:

Does chi exist? The answer is NO.


******

Really???? :eek:


Contact Umass:


EFFECTS OF CHI ENERGY EMISSION ON NB2a CELLS


The medicinal benefits of chi, or the body's inherent natural healing energy, have been used in Asia for many years. Therapeutic anti-cancer effects remain somewhat unclear due to placebos with humans. Here the placebo effect was negated through use of neuroblastoma cells (NB2a). The purpose of this study was to identify phenotypic effects in vitro on NB2a cells after several minutes of chi emission by a Chi Gung Master. A Chi Gung Master performed energy emission to 9 plates of equal confluency using two methods: Open Palm and Fingertip. Time intervals of 6 and 12 minutes were used to evaluate any deviation among emission time. After all plates were counted via hemacytometer and compared to controls. Results showed time difference (6 vs. 12 minutes) did not have any significant impact. Open Palm-type emission rendered to be non-statistically significant, showing an overall 2.87% decrease from control plates. Fingertip emission, however, showed an overall decrease of 50.23%. The change in cancer cell plates receiving Fingertip emission compared to controls suggests there may be direct in vivo anti-cancer benefits from this modality of substanceless medicine.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HumbleWCGuy wrote:

Does chi exist? The answer is NO.


******

Really???? :eek:


Contact Umass:


EFFECTS OF CHI ENERGY EMISSION ON NB2a CELLS


The medicinal benefits of chi, or the body's inherent natural healing energy, have been used in Asia for many years. Therapeutic anti-cancer effects remain somewhat unclear due to placebos with humans. Here the placebo effect was negated through use of neuroblastoma cells (NB2a). The purpose of this study was to identify phenotypic effects in vitro on NB2a cells after several minutes of chi emission by a Chi Gung Master. A Chi Gung Master performed energy emission to 9 plates of equal confluency using two methods: Open Palm and Fingertip. Time intervals of 6 and 12 minutes were used to evaluate any deviation among emission time. After all plates were counted via hemacytometer and compared to controls. Results showed time difference (6 vs. 12 minutes) did not have any significant impact. Open Palm-type emission rendered to be non-statistically significant, showing an overall 2.87% decrease from control plates. Fingertip emission, however, showed an overall decrease of 50.23%. The change in cancer cell plates receiving Fingertip emission compared to controls suggests there may be direct in vivo anti-cancer benefits from this modality of substanceless medicine.

I would have to read the full paper, but I doubt that these results can be taken seriously. Typically, the problem with such results is that the results can't be duplicated. If results could be duplicated don't you think that doctors would employ such treatment? Just on a surface There is one instance showing that chi doesn't exist and one showing that it does. There seems to be no logical reason why finger tips matter over palms. Isn't that an inexplicable based on what chi masters claim? Without the complete paper, this is pretty easy to chalk up to experimenter error.

[Jim Roselando]

Humble wrote: I would have to read the full paper,

Be my guest. Here is all the contact info you need. JR

***

Tom Shea PhD1, Donald Wong2*, Ryan Gilbert3*

April 25, 2008

University of Massachusetts - Lowell; Lowell, MA 01850

***

Humble wrote: But I doubt that these results can be taken seriously.


Why read the research since you already made up your mind??? Some prefer to see the actual results of the lab testing by professionals and with professionals before they come to any decisions. JR


Humble wrote: Just on a surface level of analysis, why should finger tips matter over palms?


What has more of a concentrated beam? A flash light or laser? JR


Back to lurk mode!

[HumbleWCGuy]

Humble wrote: I would have to read the full paper,

Be my guest. Here is all the contact info you need. JR

***

Tom Shea PhD1, Donald Wong2*, Ryan Gilbert3*

April 25, 2008

University of Massachusetts - Lowell; Lowell, MA 01850

***

Humble wrote: But I doubt that these results can be taken seriously.


Why read the research since you already made up your mind??? Some prefer to see the actual results of the lab testing by professionals and with professionals before they come to any decisions. JR


Humble wrote: Just on a surface level of analysis, why should finger tips matter over palms?


What has more of a concentrated beam? A flash light or laser? JR


Back to lurk mode!
It's funny that you accuse me of the same bias that you share. Interestingly, you have read the abstract and decided that you have proof positive where I have read the abstract and asked for more information because there isn't enough information. I do research for a living by the way.

To be honest, one study or experiment in the world of research is usually just the basis for further research rather than considered proof positive. The existence of chi has been investigated many times and shown be non-existent. As a rule (a statistical artifact) a small percentage of studies will contradict these findings due to error by the experimenter or random error. In my field of psychology, we like to use meta-analyses to account for these errors so that we may get closer to a true result. The meta-analysis is where the results of many studies are combined using a weighted (by sample size) average.

Rather than contact them. Give me the title to the article and the journal it was published in. I am an academic so I can just look it up. If this result is unpublished it is typically do to errors in method.

[Jim Roselando]

Mr Humble wrote:


It's funny that you accuse me of the same bias that you share.


The problem with forum discussions is giving a piece of info. but not participating in the entire discussion. You are assuming I use only that 1 test, which would mean I am bias, But, the truth is I only posted that one test since it was recent and related to the topic/thread. Experience is the other big factor and what I would recommend (more than anything) to anyone who is looking into this field before making personal decisions.

So, I do not use One lab test to make any decisions for me, I did say "Some" prefer to see results before blah blah bla......... It was just food for thought.

After you contact Umass Lowel you can contact Harvard's Benson Institute for Mind/Body science..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvplo5_EtV0


Adios!

[Vajramusti]

These kinds of discussions are not really resolved in short internet forum discussions. Science is at it's best in physics- as science approaches human affairs it can become easily loaded with more cultural and personal assumptions and models... and becomes loaded with epistemological issues not just verbal definitions. And the context for different issues and meaning a become very important.

You don't have to "believe" in "chi" to do wing chun- just do wing chun "correctly" and chi will take care of itself. The problem is in the meaning of "correctly".Not an easy subject IMO.

In any case, without chi, prana or pneuma- I would be dead. But healthy motion, and many good Asian arts-are helped by an understanding of how the chi flows in motion--if you have a successful acupuncture treatment- it's in part due to the practitioners understanding of the chi flow. The practitioner does not have to use the word chi. Because of Marxist materialism under Mao--they
underused the word chi- but honored TCM and acupuncture.One has to drop both materialistic assumptions and non materialistis assumptions to experiment with what is there in human motion and flow.
You can always tell in taiji in using certain motions- who understands chi in fingers and who doesnt.
CXW in correcting Chen postures personally- before his English got better would say "chi here" at the end of the pathway..
First rate yoga teachers- not the fitness center ones also make sure that your prana(chi) is flowing the right way.
In YGKYM when done well the chi will flow up and down and into your hands and fingers.

Burr's (published) work at Yale in the 1930s experimentally showed that electro- magnetic current runs in all living things.
Licensed DOs-specializing in neuro fascial manipulation also have the working assumption of
a life force being involved in detrmining health or disease.
Interesting as it is one doesn't have to look at the references that Jim is mentioning.

There are different ways of mustering force in a punch- one can be knocked out by 1.a hit by a strong man or Hulk Hogan 2. a punch by a Tyson or 3. a punch by CXW or a top flight wc person.
The potential of #3 takes more training but also last longer in one's life. #1 these days often involve steroids. #2 involves rapid decline after peaking-often leaving some bad side effects on body and mind. The long run of #3 can be diluted by smoking and drinking among other excesses.

Not debating- a considered and devloped opinion and a POV.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mr Humble wrote:


It's funny that you accuse me of the same bias that you share.


The problem with forum discussions is giving a piece of info. but not participating in the entire discussion. You are assuming I use only that 1 test, which would mean I am bias, But, the truth is I only posted that one test since it was recent and related to the topic/thread. Experience is the other big factor and what I would recommend (more than anything) to anyone who is looking into this field before making personal decisions.

So, I do not use One lab test to make any decisions for me, I did say "Some" prefer to see results before blah blah bla......... It was just food for thought.

After you contact Umass Lowel you can contact Harvard's Benson Institute for Mind/Body science..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvplo5_EtV0


Adios!

Sorry, but medium sized Midwestern University says no. One nut job at Harvard who says yes to Chi is trumped by the rest of the more credible experts who disagree. There are reasons why chi is not accepted by science. Navy seals and cold water swimmers are able to do the same things that these chi masters in the video are doing. There is no magic. Just accept it. If Chi so accepted and credible then why can't you generate credible evidence? Answer, there is none outside of pop-sci articles and video.


To Joy's point. You can only accept the cultural excuse so far, as soon as someone says that Chi can affect physical objects, it can be tested. Thus far there has been no credible documentation.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


Thank you for mentioning Dr. Burr research/work on the Electro Magnetic Field!

Time for me to really go back to lurk mode. I had some free time this sunday to visit good old KFO! It was fun....


:)


***

A New concept appears in physics, the most important invention since Newton's time: The field. It needed great scientific imagination to realize that it is not the charges nor the particles but the field in space between the charges and the particles which is essential for the description of physical phenomena....

In the beginning, the field concept was no more than a means of facilitating the understanding of phenomena from the mechanical point of view.... The recognition of the new concept grew steadily, until substance was overshadowed by the field. It was realized that something of great importance had happened in physics. A new reality was created, a new concept for which there was no place in the mechanical description. Slowly and by a struggle the field concept established for itself a leading place in physics and has remained as one of the basic physical concepts. The electromagnetic field is, for the modern physicist, as real as the chair on which he sits.


--ALBERT EINSTEIN

[Hendrik]

To you all, there might be just something you debate....etc.

To many others, it is how to live and get healthy.


Qi exist ? yes.

Is Qi as what Joy said? that is just partial of it. There are much much more in SLT.

As I mention before, the do called modern scientific model is just an analytical modern where everything is disect until nothing left. The TCM IMA model is a system synthesis model which bring forward the phenomenon of integration or the effect created via interrelationship of the system.


Until one know what it is how can one jump gun for conclusion?


There is no fire in the dry wood, there is no fire in the sun ray, there is no fire in the magnifiying glass.

But, when using the magnifiying glass to focus the sun ray into the dry wood. fire is evoked.

That is what happen, when the fire of heart boiling the water of kidney the Qi surface. and this Qi can be used to heal one's body or do other stuffs.

Unless you know how to make fire with sun ray, unless you know how to evoke Zhen Qi. What to talk?

Also, can one scientifically investigate a dry wood to find fire? a magnifying glass to find fire? if fire is within dry wood why dont it burn itself? ....



EVerything is very clear but a close and fuzzy mind cannot grasp what is going on and turn into making senseless claim.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968364]

To Joy's point. You can only accept the cultural excuse so far, as soon as someone says that Chi can affect physical objects, it can be tested. Thus far there has been no credible documentation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No excuses involved. No where did I say that chi can affect physical objects. The point was that elctro magnetism exists in living organisms-not just mechanics. Eisnstein accepted the idea of a field but battled unsuccessfully thus far against Bohr, Heisenberg and Schrodinger(sp).

Depends on what you accept- ok with me if you don't.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

No excuses involved. No where did I say that chi can affect physical objects.joy chaudhuri
I was just speaking to a broader issue that I though that you touched upon.


The point was that elctro magnetism exists in living organisms-not just mechanics.

I would not dispute that. I think then some general question for science are:

Is Chi electro-magnitism?
If not EM, what is chi so that it can be measured?
Whatever chi is, can a human generate enough to affect themselves an other objects.



Eisnstein accepted the idea of a field but battled unsuccessfully thus far against Bohr, Heisenberg and Schrodinger(sp).
i
I am not sure what you are getting at here, could you clarify?




Depends on what you accept- ok with me if you don't.

joy chaudhuri

As it should be. Ultimately, I accept that some people want to believe one way or another and can't be changed. However, I am concerned for the naive.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As a general note. I would be hesitant to refer to the current in the human body as something that runs in a continuous flow from one point to another. Rather there are a number of discrete currents on the cellular level that do not interact (i.e. sodium potassium pumps).

This is getting to be a bit ridiculous. People cite "evidence" for chi, but it is really just citing chi as a cause or result of something that isn't fully understood. These arguments aren't very strong.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968386]
This is getting to be a bit ridiculous. People cite "evidence" for chi, but it is really just citing chi as a cause or result of something that isn't fully understood. These arguments aren't very strong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to be concerned about chi-which is just fine.

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

After you contact Umass Lowel you can contact Harvard's Benson Institute for Mind/Body science..



UMass never published that quote of yours.

Harvard's Benson Institute has done no research into chi. They published real stuff not your whack job qi masters. Take a look at their publications.

You crap on about this every time saying it's research. Basically appears like you made it up when there's no publications to cite.

The experiments you claim were done never have any publications. Screw them. It's BS.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To you all, there might be just something you debate....etc.

To many others, it is how to live and get healthy.

I think that the training is fine. Although I have an alternate belief about why the training is effective.




Qi exist ? yes.

Is Qi as what Joy said? that is just partial of it. There are much much more in SLT.

As I mention before, the do called modern scientific model is just an analytical modern where everything is disect until nothing left. The TCM IMA model is a system synthesis model which bring forward the phenomenon of integration or the effect created via interrelationship of the system.



Until one know what it is how can one jump gun for conclusion?

When I see some legitimate evidence, I will change my mind immediately. Good science does not take such a reductionist approach. In psychology, for example, behavior is evaluated in terms of biological, social, and cognitive (thinking) components to name a few. However, at no time would someone suggest that behavior be evaluated in terms of subatomic particles. Obviously nothing could exist without subatomic particles, but they are essentially irrelevant to human behavior.



There is no fire in the dry wood, there is no fire in the sun ray, there is no fire in the magnifiying glass.

But, when using the magnifiying glass to focus the sun ray into the dry wood. fire is evoked.

True, there is no fire in any of these things but we can investigate all of the components to see why fire occurred.




That is what happen, when the fire of heart boiling the water of kidney the Qi surface. and this Qi can be used to heal one's body or do other stuffs.

Unless you know how to make fire with sun ray, unless you know how to evoke Zhen Qi. What to talk?

What I know how to do is how to make scientific inquiry and evaluate the legitimacy of evidence. In addition, I have a broad enough education to not be sucked in to believing in chi because I saw someone raise the body temperature or preforms some other feat that appears to be remarkable on the surface, but is well understood by scientists as a physical process.





Also, can one scientifically investigate a dry wood to find fire? a magnifying glass to find fire? if fire is within dry wood why dont it burn itself? ....

Of course not. All of these things must be investigated together to find fire. However, most investigators aren't looking to find out how chi is made because it hasn't be shown to be real yet. What investigators would like, is for a chi master to step forward and demonstrate the effects of chi by demonstrating something that could only be explained by chi.

Put simply, before investigators start looking at the wood, the magnifying glass, and solar rays, they want to see the fire. As of yet, the fire (chi) has not been demonstrated in a convincing manner.



EVerything is very clear but a close and fuzzy mind cannot grasp what is going on and turn into making senseless claim.
Well I am sorry that you think so. Although I don't believe in chi, I think that the training can teach the body to do many amazing things.

As I have said several times, I am concerned about people claiming that they have chi and taking advantage of people. It is very difficult for a laymen to argue against the existence of chi. As this thread has shown, believers will parade apparently fantastic physical feats, questionable philosophical arguments, and questionable research articles out to demonstrate the effects of chi.

It is easy to claim chi when something is not understood. It is difficult to understand the science and sometimes fraud behind the feats.

[Vajramusti]

"As I have said several times, I am concerned about people claiming that they have chi and taking advantage of people."
------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Answer: i share your concern about frauds-but they are there in practically every field.

Given the anonymity- I don't know who you are and what you have learned . If you prefer exclusively bio mechanical explanations for what skills you have developed-that is not unusual at all
and quite acceptable to me.

FWIW-a non fraudulent but a non western perspective :everyone has chi-if they are living--in varying degrees depending on their health. Too little or too much can have undesirable side effects.

In order not to waste time lots of good teachers don't waste their time arguing about chi.

No real dialogue here- I suggest that we drop the thread. Not a missionary bone in this body. Forum discussions often go round and round in circles and the same topics emerge again and again. This discussion on chi I am sure has occurred in this forum many times.Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Edmond wrote:

The experiments you claim were done never have any publications. Screw them. It's BS.

****


ROFLOL hahaha Joy is correct:

No real dialogue here- I suggest that we drop the thread. Not a missionary bone in this body. Forum discussions often go round and round in circles and the same topics emerge again and again. This discussion on chi I am sure has occurred in this forum many times.

Read the full report if you want (or not). My last reply for those who have interest! JR


****


University of Massachusetts - Lowell; Lowell, MA 01850


EFFECTS OF CHI ENERGY EMISSION ON NB2a CELLS

ABSTRACT

The medicinal benefits of chi, or the body's inherent natural healing energy, have been used in Asia for many years. Therapeutic anti-cancer effects remain somewhat unclear due to placebos with humans. Here the placebo effect was negated through use of neuroblastoma cells (NB2a). The purpose of this study was to identify phenotypic effects in vitro on NB2a cells after several minutes of chi emission by a Chi Gung Master. A Chi Gung Master performed energy emission to 9 plates of equal confluency using two methods: Open Palm and Fingertip. Time intervals of 6 and 12 minutes were used to evaluate any deviation among emission time. After all plates were counted via hemacytometer and compared to controls. Results showed time difference (6 vs. 12 minutes) did not have any significant impact. Open Palm-type emission rendered to be non-statistically significant, showing an overall 2.87% decrease from control plates. Fingertip emission, however, showed an overall decrease of 50.23%. The change incancer cell plates receiving Fingertip emission compared to controls suggests there may be direct in vivo anti-cancer benefits from this modality of substanceless medicine.

INTRODUCTION

The medicinal form of treatment researched here originates from ancient Chinese medicine, using the bioelectromagnetic energy of the body to drive out imbalances disrupting homeostasis. This is similar to the theory of meridians used by acupuncturists. Chi Gung, or working with the body's energy, is a fundamental part of Traditional Chinese Medicine often overlooked due to complexities of the placebo effect questioning its true efficacy. Here we eliminated the placebo factor by using NB2a cells. 13 Plates were prepared from the same source and passaged to consistent confluency two days prior to the experiment.

A Chi Gung Master performed the technique Fa Chi, or chi energy emission (CEE). In the practice of working with energy, there is often a connotation of "positive" and "negative" energy manipulated by experienced practitioners. For the entirety of this experiment negative energy was emitted to note destructive phenotypic effects on the cancer cells. CEE was performed at time intervals of 6 minutes and 12 minutes to ascertain any deviation in effect, which there appeared not to be.

Two common methods of emission were used: Open Palm and Fingertip. In Open Palm and Fingertip methods, the Chi Gung Master placed his hand within 3 inches of culture plates. The last plate received Distance Healing, where the Chi Gung Master used intent alone to manipulate negative energy on cancer cells. This action was performed consistently for every plate tested. 4 Plates were used as control, 4 for Open Palm, and 4 for Fingertip. 2 Control plates were left out of the incubator for 6 minutes and 2 for 12 minutes to match the plates receiving some form of CEE. All cells were counted via hemacytometer 2 hours after receiving negative CEE and analyzed for percent change.

MATERIAL AND METHODS

Cells were kindly donated by Ambar Ahmed and reagents by Deepali Gotur of University of Massachusetts Lowell. Two days prior to the experiment NB2a cells (P0) were passaged. Media was removed and cells rinsed in PBS buffer. After, 1 ml of trypsin was added and cells were incubated for 8 min at 37 degrees Celsius. Cells were then pipetted out into a centrifuge tube and serum-containing media was added to reach 3 mls. Cells were spun at 3000 rpm for 5 min and passaged out in a 1:15 dilution into 14 sterile plates with 1.8 ml serum-containing media added. Cells were kept incubated at 37 degrees Celsius. On the third day cells were taken out only for the time period needed for CEE (6 – 12 min) and control plates as well. Each plate was taken out individually for its set time of energy exposure. After CEE was completed for a plate, 2 hrs later hemacytometer cell counts were performed. Serum-media was removed and plates were rinsed in PBS buffer then incubated with 2 mls trypsin at 8-10 min each. Counts were performed using trypan blue in a 1:2 dilution with NB2a cells.

RESULTS
SAMPLE
AVG
W. AVG



Control Plates
52250




Fingertip Emission

26000



6 min exposure

26000
A
34000

B
18000




12 min exposure

26000
C
9000

D
43000




Open Palm Emission

50750



6 min exposure

54000
E
41000

F
67000




12 min exposure

47500
G
44000

H
51000




Distance Healing


I
33000
33000

Figure 2 – Percent Change of Plates Receiving CEE
Plates were analyzed in percent increase or decrease
relative to the control average.


Figure 1 – Averaged Cell Counts
Plates were counted twice via hemacytometer using a 1:2 dilution of trypan blue to help visualize cells. Average cells derived from four control plates came to be 52250. Fingertip-tested plates averaged at 26000 and Open Palm-tested
plates 50750. Plates were also averaged grouped by time exposure to CEE as well as a single sample taken for Distance Healing.
Percent Change to Controls





Fingertip - 6 min
50.23% Decrease
Fingertip - 12 min
50.23% Decrease
Overall Fingertip
50.23% Decrease




Open Palm - 6 min
3.34% Increase
Open Palm – 12 min
9.09% Decrease
Overall Open Palm
2.87% Decrease







Figure 3 – Averaged Cancer Cell Counts After Chi Emission
DISCUSSION

CEE given by Open Palm method proved insubstantial in manipulated the cells phenotype in any way, and no cell death was inferred as the percent change decreased only by 2.87% (Figure 2). While there may still be therapeutic effects in regards to human patients, none was shown through in vitro activity. The Fingertip emission method, however, provides interesting results. NB2a cells decreased by 50.23% and all four plate samples (A-D) resulted in statistically significant lower counts then the cumulative average of the four control plates that remained non-CEE treated. The Distance Healing plate (sample I) cannot be rendered statistically significant as only one plate was tested however it too provides a significant decrease from the control average of non-treated CEE plates (seen in Figure 1).

Duration of chi exposure proved weak in terms of cell death efficacy of CEE as some averages were higher for cells receiving 12 minutes as opposed to 6 minutes. More importantly, it seems the modality of emission plays a larger role in effectively killing cancer cells. On average, twice as many cancer cells were killed using Fingertip Fa Chi emission method than did Open Palm. While not all counts were consistent with level of cell death, certainly more of a trend appeared in cancer cells receiving CEE via Fingertip method. Thus, chi's ability to kill cancercells directly has been shown here to a degree in Figure 3. Being a form of substanceless medicine and lacking any side effects, Chi Gung's importance of manipulating this inherent energy of the body as an anti-cancer practice must be further researched and evaluated.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This experiment could have only been published in a fly-by-night journal if it were published at all. This reads like a high school science experiment or a lab writeup from undergraduate biology that took about 2 hours to complete, both experiment and write up.

Each sample should have acted as its own control. There should be a before and after measure of cells. Also, I would be completely astounded to find that an IRB (Institutional Review Board) let an experiment participant reveal their name. There is too much risk of a person being denied a job because a company does not want to deal with the financial costs associated with hiring a cancer survivor.

There is no discussion of why one type of exposure was better than another. I sent this lab paper to my biologist and physician friends to evaluate as well.

[m1k3]

Did you ever notice how many people are willing to buy into the "alternative medicine" concept?

I wonder how many would be interested in flying in a plane designed and built by alternative engineers?

We don't need no stinking math, we have the secrets of the ancient masters!

I think a lot of you need to have your bullsh1t detectors recalibrated.

[anerlich]

Having read that "study", if I get cancer, I'll ...

ask for an urgent referral to an oncologist

, and I reckon Jim and Hendrik would as well.

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Having read that "study", if I get cancer, I'll ...

ask for an urgent referral to an oncologist

, and I reckon Jim and Hendrik would as well.

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.

I am fairly confident that the paper is just a lab report which is nothing more than a project put together by a couple of kids to meet a homework requirment.

[Edmund]

Read the full report if you want (or not). My last reply for those who have interest! JR


Never published.

There are plenty of real experiments looking into qigong.
Yours is not one of them.

Reason being it's crap. As HumbleWCGuy said, it's very short and reads like a uni assignment.

One of the authors, Donald Wong is a qigong master.
Ryan Gilbert probably his student.
Tom Shea, Ryan's uni lecturer perhaps? That guy has a stack of real publications in cell biology. No qigong stuff though. Wonder why..

What did Ryan get for this report, C- ?

I suppose to you this counts as a publication since he printed it out and stapled it to hand it in.

[Jim Roselando]

Anerlich wrote;

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.?????

****

BINGO! Everyone always gets distracted by the so-called mysterious speculation when it comes to these "stupid" Chi discussions. Anyone who trained Qigong for a lousy two weeks would understand its basic purposes and it has NOTHING to do with mystical crap.

So, you are 100% correct when you ask the above question!!!


My answer to you would be below and no it is not the only way to do what I am describing but a way!

http://www.apricotforesthall.com/DVD_06.html

***

From reading Mr. NotHumbleWCGuy posts on different subjects I would say that James certainly hit the nail on the head with this reply to him:


Oh yeah, well my Dad's bigger than your Dad :) :) :) "Sihing"

****

ROFLMAO

hahahahaha

:D


:cool:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Anerlich wrote;

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.?????

****

BINGO! Everyone always gets distracted by the so-called mysterious speculation when it comes to these "stupid" Chi discussions. Anyone who trained Qigong for a lousy two weeks would understand its basic purposes and it has NOTHING to do with mystical crap.

So, you are 100% correct when you ask the above question!!!


My answer to you would be below and no it is not the only way to do what I am describing but a way!

http://www.apricotforesthall.com/DVD_06.html





Didn't you just post a lab report that you claim proves that chi (an undetectable force) can cure cancer?

[Yoshiyahu]

Question about Chi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When holding the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Posture(Stance) the Kuit Kuen says:




Quote: Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....These Questions have not be completely answered!

[Jim Roselando]

Didn't you just post a lab report that you claim proves that chi (an undetectable force) can cure cancer?


That was to show that there are reports showing Chi can be cultivated and utilized, BUT, I never once said it was mystical or something complicated. That was the speculation of You and some others.

So, just as there are reports showing Chi there are reports that disagree. Both hold the same value IMO......... Unlike you, I do not call the opposite reports wack job info. Mr. "Humble" etc..

Adios! :cool:

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Yoshi,


How does one fill the Dan Tien?


Deep relaxation and Lower Abdominal Breathing over time is the start. The body must return to the natural state so it requires 3 forms of conditioning. Physcial, Mental and BREATHING. JR


How do you distribute chi/strength???


You don't! The natural process is to fill the Dan Tien and when the Dan Tien is Robust it (qi/strength/awareness) will begin to transport to other areas of the body on its own. The wholesome effect is 6 directional force vectors meaning the body is equal at all points. "Up/Down/Left/Right/Forward/Backward" This form of cultivation/awareness develops what I would call whole body structure and segmented power. JR


Sorry for distracting your topic down that normal ugly road! I hope this helps! E-mail me off-list if you want to chat more!


:)

[anerlich]

Anerlich wrote;

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.?????

****

BINGO! Everyone always gets distracted by the so-called mysterious speculation when it comes to these "stupid" Chi discussions. Anyone who trained Qigong for a lousy two weeks would understand its basic purposes and it has NOTHING to do with mystical crap.

So, you are 100% correct when you ask the above question!!!


It was a statement, not a question, and did not require an answer. You misquoted me by adding the ?????. Score -10 for your credibility, though that does not appear to concern you much.

In my estimation I've spent more time training IMA directly than either Hendrik or yourself, and IMO it has WAY TOO MUCH to do with mystical crap.

[m1k3]

Yoshi, the real answer to your question is to close your eyes, take a deep breath, clap your hands 3 times and then chant, "I BELIEVE in the CHI faeries, I do, I do".

Repeat as necessary.

That's it. :rolleyes:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Jim, YOU have embarrassed yourself ridiculously in this thread. I hope that the mods will take pity on you and delete this thread.

[Hendrik]

Yoshi, the real answer to your question is to close your eyes, take a deep breath, clap your hands 3 times and then chant, "I BELIEVE in the CHI faeries, I do, I do".

Repeat as necessary.

That's it. :rolleyes:



hahaha, sure sure. that is great.

[Hendrik]

Jim, YOU have embarrassed yourself ridiculously in this thread. I hope that the mods will take pity on you and delete this thread.



As I know Jim speak the facts may be he has a different facts then you. But it is certainly not ridiculous.

[Hendrik]

In my estimation I've spent more time training IMA directly than either Hendrik or yourself, and IMO it has WAY TOO MUCH to do with mystical crap.


hahaha, how long have you train IMA? which IMA? how many hours a day your practice? practice what? Who is your sifus?

[Hendrik]

Jim,


See, I told you it is much much much better to told everyone to go Baisi?

What do you get by telling the truth? hahahaha


boy, i like this song hahaha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkoX8CmHXew

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow Jim...your one of the few who actually answered the question...Excellent...thank you for sharing your view point openly and honestly...Yea some people wish to mytsify chi and make it mystery. I am glad you can share your practice honestly...


Thank you very much Jim


Hey Yoshi,


How does one fill the Dan Tien?


Deep relaxation and Lower Abdominal Breathing over time is the start. The body must return to the natural state so it requires 3 forms of conditioning. Physcial, Mental and BREATHING. JR


How do you distribute chi/strength???


You don't! The natural process is to fill the Dan Tien and when the Dan Tien is Robust it (qi/strength/awareness) will begin to transport to other areas of the body on its own. The wholesome effect is 6 directional force vectors meaning the body is equal at all points. "Up/Down/Left/Right/Forward/Backward" This form of cultivation/awareness develops what I would call whole body structure and segmented power. JR


Sorry for distracting your topic down that normal ugly road! I hope this helps! E-mail me off-list if you want to chat more!


:)

[Yoshiyahu]

Jim, YOU have embarrassed yourself ridiculously in this thread. I hope that the mods will take pity on you and delete this thread.

Do you disagree with Jim? Why is that? what is your opinion to my question Humble guy. Please show us how Jim is wrong. What is the answer to my question?



As I know Jim speak the facts may be he has a different facts then you. But it is certainly not ridiculous.

Thank you Hendrik for agreeing with someone.


Jim,


See, I told you it is much much much better to told everyone to go Baisi?

What do you get by telling the truth? hahahaha


boy, i like this song hahaha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkoX8CmHXew

Sometimes standing up for the truth gets you persecution. But its better to stand up than to cowar in the corner somewhere!

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yoshiyahu
I don't believe in chi. If you operate in that world, I am sure that Jim is accurately answering your questions. Although, I would prefer to work with someone other people who have chimed in because they seem to be willing to operate in both worlds. Irrespective of my beliefs about the existence of chi, as Joy wisely pointed out, you don't have to believe in chi to receive the benefits of training. I believe he said, to do the training and, "the chi will take care of itself." I do believe that the training has benefits which are often demonstrated.

As for embarrassing himself, Jim has demonstrated a low standard for what he deems as evidence and a penchant for insults when all else fails.

[Hendrik]

Yoshiyahu
I don't believe in chi. If you operate in that world, I am sure that Jim is accurately answering your questions. Although, I would prefer to work with someone other people who have chimed in because they seem to be willing to operate in both worlds. Irrespective of my beliefs about the existence of chi, as Joy wisely pointed out, you don't have to believe in chi to receive the benefits of training. I believe he said, to do the training and, "the chi will take care of itself." I do believe that the training has benefits which are often demonstrated.

As for embarrassing himself, Jim has demonstrated a low standard for what he deems as evidence and a penchant for insults when all else fails.



It is not true that one needs to believe in Chi and it is also not true you don't have to believe in chi to receive the benefits of training.


Chi is like a hand, without knowing and having the hand one cannot move it. thus, there is no benifit.

[Hendrik]

Sometimes standing up for the truth gets you persecution. But its better to stand up than to cowar in the corner somewhere!



The issue now is if anyone follow the instruction to train it. Who's responsibility to make sure things are train properly?

[anerlich]

hahaha, how long have you train IMA? which IMA? how many hours a day your practice? practice what? Who is your sifus?

I don't need to explain or justify my training to you. Go hug a post.

[Hendrik]

In my estimation I've spent more time training IMA directly than either Hendrik or yourself, and IMO it has WAY TOO MUCH to do with mystical crap.



An empty claim, isnt it? hahahaha

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi does in fact exist. I think that none believers are actually looking for something else, that obviously is not to be found. It is not some force that allows one to strike an enemy from a distance, and it cannot project from your body in any way. Chi is your energy field. When you eat well and exercise to make your muscles more effient at using that food energy and oxygen, you are actually cultivating your chi. If you get up the morning after a bender you will find your chi low. If you eat well and get a good nights rest, you awake with a high chi. You are simply more energetic. That is your chi.
You can not project your chi outside your body to smite an enemy at a distance. This can not happen in any case. You can however focus your chi. It is done in every form of martial art that I am aware of. With a fairly relaxed body you strike out, and at the instant of the impact you force out a bit of breath to aid in bringing the core, or abdomen to focus your energy up the striking arm. This only lasts a fraction of a second, and with practice can be done in rapid seccession. This is the way you use your chi. The only way.
If you flex and strain your body as you are attempting to focus your chi, it will radiate in that direction and will quickly drain, making you tired. The ability to focus your chi allows you to meter your energy out with less of a drain, which can help you in endurance. The skill of technique will also help you use your chi more efficiently. I think that this is what everyone is looking for. With constant application of certain techniques you can develop such skill and flow that when you apply your chi the force of energy behind the stike is such that it can literally destroy a persons vitals. This ability is not some mystical magic, but your very own energy being focused into an action that you have practiced over and over until you can do it smoothly and with absolute form and accuracy.
I used to perform a parlor trick when everyone else was breaking boards and bricks. I would have a single 1ftx1ft board, and anyone could break that with ease, but not the way I was doing it. I would take and shove a tack into 2 corners and tie a single strand of cotton sewing thread between them. I would then hang this. The grain was across of course, as breaking it with the grain would require a large hammer. I could hold my hand about 4 inches from the board and knock off 2 inch pieces starting at the bottom, without breaking the thread. The hanging wood would not even swing. Many people that had been breaking bricks and boards of pretty thick stacks could not do that without breaking the thread first. The board would just go flying away as the thread broke. Talk was that I was actually shooting it off with my chi, which of course is silly. It was just something I had learned to do with a great deal of practice. Nothing more, except that I did apply my chi as I focused the finger tip strike on the board.
As far as TCM and accupuncture and all that stuff, I have a great deal of faith in some of it. The flow of your chi allows knowledgable people to alter this flow by use of tiny needles and massage that enhances your body's ability to heal itself. A really nasty injury can heal up by itself given time, and by use of this channeling it can be given more of what it might need to heal. Now lets talk about Dim Mak.

LCP

[Hendrik]

it cannot project from your body in any way. Chi is your energy field. When you eat well and exercise to make your muscles more effient at using that food energy and oxygen, you are actually cultivating your chi. If you get up the morning after a bender you will find your chi low. If you eat well and get a good nights rest, you awake with a high chi. You are simply more energetic. That is your chi.




Chi is more than the above.

Chi is an evoke able energy flow which is can be directed with your will.

Chi needs to be cultivated in a certain way. For it can get stuck and it can dissipate and it can get drain and the body can be very in efficient to strengthen them.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi is more than the above.

Chi is an evoke able energy flow which is can be directed with your will.

Chi needs to be cultivated in a certain way. For it can get stuck and it can dissipate and it can get drain and the body can be very in efficient to strengthen them.

Hendrik, I have said all this, and there is no more. I have been kicking this thing around for a long time, and I have yet to see a single person evoke chi other than what I just described. It can not be projected outside the body. I am sure that in western terms it can be completely explained should someone actually decide to do some serious research, but I don't think they are going to find anything magical at all. I can evoke my chi. I can evoke my chi as I throw a punch. An extremely hard punch. But should one stand a mere inch out of my reach he will not feel the effects of my chi.
If you would be so kind as to explain to me what you do when you evoke your chi. What do you use it to do in other words. I mean if you can evoke it and direct it, where do you direct it and what does it do? What would be your purpose in doing so? Make it simple and please don't talk in riddles again.

LCP

[Hendrik]

I have said all this, and there is no more. I have been kicking this thing around for a long time, and I have yet to see a single person evoke chi other than what I just described. It can not be projected outside the body. I am sure that in western terms it can be completely explained should someone actually decide to do some serious research, but I don't think they are going to find anything magical at all. I can evoke my chi. I can evoke my chi as I throw a punch. An extremely hard punch. But should one stand a mere inch out of my reach he will not feel the effects of my chi.


That is your definition.
The question is have you learn and train from a legitimate school or teacher?
For me you was never expose to real Qigong which comes proper concept, the process to achieve result, and training.







If you would be so kind as to explain to me what you do when you evoke your chi.

All Qigong practioner uses Intention to evoke the qi.




What do you use it to do in other words. I mean if you can evoke it and direct it, where do you direct it and what does it do? What would be your purpose in doing so?


Qigong means cultivate, Grow, smoothing the flow of Qi for various purpose from medical to strengthening.... to martial arts.....etc.

[Yoshiyahu]

That is your definition.
The question is have you learn and train from a legitimate school or teacher?
For me you was never expose to real Qigong which comes proper concept, the process to achieve result, and training.







All Qigong practioner uses Intention to evoke the qi.






Qigong means cultivate, Grow, smoothing the flow of Qi for various purpose from medical to strengthening.... to martial arts.....etc.

Hendrik what is song of Sung?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik what is song of Sung?

Dont understand what are you asking.

[dirtyrat]

Here's an article about Chinese military training during the Ming dynasty based on honest research...

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/qijiguang.pdf

an excerpt from that article I found interesting:


Although boxing, with its agile movements, was considered to be the foundation for weapons use, it was only one element in (General) Qi’s overall training regimen. The training regimen included: maintaining an overall strong fighting constitution (through remaining “lean and mean”); strong hands and arms through training with heaver than normal weapons; strong feet and legs through running over 600 yards without gasping for breath an, using ankle weights (bags of sand) while running; and overall bodily strength and endurance by training while weighted down with heavier than normal armor. [5] Strength, endurance, and agility were physical traits prized in the Chinese military from earliest times. Weight lifting, long distance running, jumping, climbing, and swimming were among the activities associated with military training and martial arts prowess over the centuries. [6] However, this does not mean that brute strength was considered the determining factor in battle. To the contrary, brain was favored over brawn in the tactics of hand-to-hand combat.

No mention of qigong training here. just good old fashion hard training.

On a side note, I have a friend who grew up during the early days of communist China. He said there was a time when food was scarce. So the government encouraged the practice of taijiquan and qigong exercises. My friend said that because food was lacking, people in general didn't have the strength to do "hard" exercises. Perhaps this could explain how taijiquan and qigong became a widespread practice.

[Lee Chiang Po]

That is your definition.
The question is have you learn and train from a legitimate school or teacher?
For me you was never expose to real Qigong which comes proper concept, the process to achieve result, and training.

All Qigong practioner uses Intention to evoke the qi.

Qigong means cultivate, Grow, smoothing the flow of Qi for various purpose from medical to strengthening.... to martial arts.....etc.


Well, he taught for over 50 years. That is what he did in China and in the US until he retired from that. I suppose he was a legitimate teacher. Probably more teaching credentials than most people I know of. He taught for an organization and must have taught over a thousand people. People that made a living with what he taught them.
Using intention to evoke chi. That is talking in riddles again. This is what I am talking about. Any time you go to slug someone you pretty much intend to, right? And if you can then focus your energy, or chi, you are evoking it, right? So what is wrong here? Maybe if I talked in riddles you would agree with me. No, I doubt that. It is easy to say no one else knows anything at all, but then you need to show them that you do know what you are talking about, and talking in riddles will not do that for me. I am really sorry about that, but you really need to stop that and talk like you mean it.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Here's an article about Chinese military training during the Ming dynasty based on honest research...

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/qijiguang.pdf

an excerpt from that article I found interesting:



No mention of qigong training here. just good old fashion hard training.

On a side note, I have a friend who grew up during the early days of communist China. He said there was a time when food was scarce. So the government encouraged the practice of taijiquan and qigong exercises. My friend said that because food was lacking, people in general didn't have the strength to do "hard" exercises. Perhaps this could explain how taijiquan and qigong became a widespread practice.

If you will note, competing athletes seldom look like the Pillsberry Dough Boy. They are an efficient muscle mass that has strong chi. But, if you can not do really hard exercuses because of inadequite food supplies the next best thing would be to do exercises that will tone muscle and allow them to feed and breath efficiently. This in itself will make one more athletic than the dough boy. I have known people that do nothing more than stretching and breathing exercises that are way stronger than the average man.

[Hendrik]

Using intention to evoke chi. That is talking in riddles again. This is what I am talking about.

Any time you go to slug someone you pretty much intend to, right?

And if you can then focus your energy, or chi, you are evoking it, right?

So what is wrong here?

Maybe if I talked in riddles you would agree with me.

No, I doubt that.

It is easy to say no one else knows anything at all, but then you need to show them that you do know what you are talking about, and talking in riddles will not do that for me.


I am really sorry about that, but you really need to stop that and talk like you mean it.



The teaching of Chinese said, when one doesnt know and cant making sense no matter how hard one uses his mind. One needs to go and learn from a teacher.



You know, go get a legitimate Qigong sifu and learn the basic about Qigong practice; then come back and chat.


Talk about Chi Sau how to use the body....structure.....etc forget about it if one cant will the qi.

learn from those who knows. check out start 1.40/2.16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0tLYajHBm8

[anerlich]

An empty claim, isnt it? hahahaha


No, but seeing as you make so many empty claims yourself I'll let you off on that one.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The teaching of Chinese said, when one doesnt know and cant making sense no matter how hard one uses his mind. One needs to go and learn from a teacher.



You know, go get a legitimate Qigong sifu and learn the basic about Qigong practice; then come back and chat.


Talk about Chi Sau how to use the body....structure.....etc forget about it if one cant will the qi.

learn from those who knows. check out start 1.40/2.16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0tLYajHBm8

It is not the Chinese terms I have difficulty with Hendrik, it is you talking in riddles. I went and looked at your link. It is always the same. My dad used to talk the same thing, but my older brothers explained it a little differently, and then from my own experience I have defined it even closer to my own experiences.
It is the difference in culture to some extent, and it is more about old
Chinese wives tales and myths. Say a man gets shot in the chest by a large caliber gun. In old Chinese terms you would say, he was shot, and it disrupted his chi, causing it to back up or drain off and it killed him. In more western terms you might say, this guy got shot, and it busted him wide open and he bled out and died. Either way, the dude is dead as dead can get.

In Pro. Chengs description he states that when you move, your chi moves with you. This is correct. You step a foot or 2 off to one side and naturally your chi will go with you. It is contained within your body. It flows from your very core, where your very existance began however many years ago. It rediates outwards through the body and flows to your skin, out the arms and legs to the finger and toe nails, even to your hair, if you have any. It must have a continuance in order to flow, So it slows back under and meets again at the core. This chi is developed or created within your own body and can not be drawn from any other source.
The western concept of this is simple. They know that in order to be able to even move, the body must make and burn energy. The more activity, the more energy that you have to have because you are going to burn more. It is something that is taken for granted for the most part, even among the Chinese. The old Chinese tried to explain this process in different terms. welling up your energy so that you can have more of it, then willing it to where you want it. Now this aspect I agree with and disagree with. You can not just will it. But you can focus it. You can sort of relax, but not completely or you will fall to the ground. You can focus this energy along the line of your movement in order to expend greater force, but this takes practice and it also requires your technique to be correct. Without that part of it, chi is wasted energy.
Chi is something that if you had your pockets full of it, you still might be searching for it. If you are looking for something that can not exist, you will never find it for obvious reasons. Chi is the energy that is within every living body. Without it, you would cease to exist. It is not some supernatural power, and if that is what a person seeks, then he will never find it.
Years ago, at different times, I recieved cut injuries to my hands. One was very extensive and the other almost so. In both cases, where the cuts occured, it was across the flow of energy, or chi. It remained disrupted for a long time, but eventually it was again flowing. Fingernails grow at a regular rate for the most part, and in a length of time that it would have taken my thumb and forfinger nails to grow a length from the cut to the cudicle, the nail blackened and fell off. This happened first to the thumb, then the forefinger a couple of months later. The same happened when the other hand was injured. If it had occured on the underside of the hand it might not have happened, But the blades went all the way through. This in itself would indicate that the chi flow is extremely slow, but it really isn't. Your tissues must then also flow.

[Buddha_Fist]

Chi does in fact exist.

Oh the irony of your words...

There are no hard solid facts for its existence. Otherwise it would have been at some point all over the news and it would have been a major research subject in all reputable universities of this world... As far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.

;)

[chusauli]

We've been through this too much.

Chinese used the term "Qi" to discuss a phenomenon of change and discussed it in an eloquent way.

You have many kinds of Qi:

Da Qi - Big Qi of the planet, the air you breathe
Zong Qi - The Qi in your Chest
Zhen Qi - the Proper Qi
Ying Qi - Qi flowing in the channels
Gu Qi - Qi of the grain/food you eat
Wei Qi - your defensive Qi - basically, your energetic field surrounding your body
Yuan Qi - Qi that your parents gave to you

This is all in the paradigm of Chinese medicine and metaphysics. By judging it solely by "scientific" proof, well, you have a problem in translation and judging a world view that explained phenomena for thousands of years before "science" was born.

And let's not forget "science" is another paradigm of observing nature.

Many martial artists have no real understanding of Qi...

[dirtyrat]

Translating languages can be difficult to say the least. I do find the Chinese language to be very interesting in the imagery/metaphors they use to convey ideas.

Take the ideogram for "peace" which is the ideogram for 'woman' written under the ideogram for 'roof'. Some think its because one woman in a house represents peace not two. The Chinese have quite a sense of humor.

Again the character for 'good', is compose of the ideograms for 'woman' and 'child' written together.

Qi (hei in Cantonese) can be used to convey attitude & mood. 'Ke' in mandarin means guest, and put together with the word qi means 'polite'. A Cantonese friend would use the phrase (forgive me if I spelled it wrong) cau hei (stink air) which if I remember correctly means 'grouchy'.

So in recognizing how the Chinese language works, you can see that you can't take things too literally. "Sink your qi (air) to the dan tian (loosely translated: center)" could represent an idea. IMHO, being calm and centered results in your breathing being long and deep.

Just a suggestion.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Oh the irony of your words...

There are no hard solid facts for its existence. Otherwise it would have been at some point all over the news and it would have been a major research subject in all reputable universities of this world... As far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.

;)


That was only the few first words of a complete novel that followed. Did you by chance read beyond that?

[Buddha_Fist]

That was only the few first words of a complete novel that followed. Did you by chance read beyond that?

A novel on Chi? No thanks! :D

[Hendrik]

"Sink your qi (air) to the dan tian (loosely translated: center)" could represent an idea. IMHO, being calm and centered results in your breathing being long and deep.
.


this is not correct.

Sink your qi to dan tian means exactly sink your qi to dan tian.

So what is it?

Qi once evoke is a heat ball or heat flow.

Sink is similar to a wood slowly sinking in the water.

So, sink your qi to dan tian means the qi which was evoked sink slowly/naturely similar to the wood slowly sinking to the dan dien.

After one practice qigong properly, this happen as it is.

It certainly not the air or breathing into low abdoment or deep breathing. In fact at this time the breathing is so light that it almost no breathing.


On the other hand, when mis practice, some forcefully pressure the lower abdoment while breathing. That is not sink qi to dandien but pressure breathing to dan dian area.


These above must be clear. miss a little off a thousand mile.

[bennyvt]

wow hendrik. Not only do you know everything, you know exactly what some guy hundreds of years ago meant. Sorry dude but the are many ways you can interpret what that means. Strange that you pretray yourself as a scholar yet are so sure that you know everything. I thought being a scholar meant being open to other ideas that dont just go with your preconceived theory.

[Buddha_Fist]

Many martial artists have no real understanding of Qi...

OR many martial artists never stopped believing in fairy tales...

[Hendrik]

wow hendrik. Not only do you know everything, you know exactly what some guy hundreds of years ago meant.

Sorry dude but the are many ways you can interpret what that means.

Strange that you pretray yourself as a scholar yet are so sure that you know everything. I thought being a scholar meant being open to other ideas that dont just go with your preconceived theory.



Just because you dont know it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.


I know exactly what it is because I have lots of sifus in this area and that is just the first mile stone in Qigong practice.


So, for those who is using Qigong to heal themself, this is a phenomenon will surface.

You know, human should learn to be compassionate? Stop those intepretation BS there is no democratic reasonaing about an attainment. You arrive in that state you know.

For those who have stomach problem, This first mile stone will strengthen the stomach and the kidney.



So the first fifth stanza of Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit said, the Qi meeting in Dan Dien, Ren medirian, sink. That is the state. the qi evoke and slowly and naturally sink to the dan dien. if you cant do it, baisi to a good legitimate qigong master to let him coach you to this state. then, only then you can said "oh, now I can do the fifth stanza."


Some asked me why do I have so many sifus, sure, because each sifu help me to understand and coach me to attain a state. That is the shortest path to know what the ancient writing is about.

[Hendrik]

And let's not forget "science" is another paradigm of observing nature.

Many martial artists have no real understanding of Qi...


RC,

That is forsure. the dangerous part is one think one knows but one not.

[Hardwork108]

Qi once evoke is a heat ball or heat flow.

I get similar sensations during prolonged qigong practice. I feel gradually building heat and tingling sensations around my upper chest and arms area and . I sometimes feel a type of "heat rush" through some joints during moving qigong.

It can feel a little strange in the beginning.

HW108

[Hendrik]

I get similar sensations during prolonged qigong practice. I feel gradually building heat and tingling sensations around my upper chest and arms area and . I sometimes feel a type of "heat rush" through some joints during moving qigong.

It can feel a little strange in the beginning.

HW108



I am not so sure what we talk about is the same thing. you need a legit sifu to verify for you.

A word of caution is that seeking heat sensation and sometimes forcefully create it via stress of mind is one of number one cause for mis-practice Qigong.

Qi sometimes is cool and light instead of heat. So nothing fix. One needs a teacher.

[dirtyrat]

What's interesting about the word 'qi', is the fact that today's ideogram for 'qi' is not the same ideogram used long, long ago.

The orginal ideogram consisted of the words 'no fire'. The goal of qigong was to achieve a state of 'no fire'; a state of balance if you will. Health.

The idea was simple. Not at all mysterious or esoteric.

Anyone saying otherwise is selling something IMHO.

[taai gihk yahn]

We've been through this too much.

Chinese used the term "Qi" to discuss a phenomenon of change and discussed it in an eloquent way.

You have many kinds of Qi:

Da Qi - Big Qi of the planet, the air you breathe
Zong Qi - The Qi in your Chest
Zhen Qi - the Proper Qi
Ying Qi - Qi flowing in the channels
Gu Qi - Qi of the grain/food you eat
Wei Qi - your defensive Qi - basically, your energetic field surrounding your body
Yuan Qi - Qi that your parents gave to you

This is all in the paradigm of Chinese medicine and metaphysics. By judging it solely by "scientific" proof, well, you have a problem in translation and judging a world view that explained phenomena for thousands of years before "science" was born.

And let's not forget "science" is another paradigm of observing nature.

Many martial artists have no real understanding of Qi...the contemporary scientific method is predicated on relative objectivity (e.g. - unconnected groups of researchers arriving at same data / conclusions from an experiment, or statistical significance in randomized double-blind clinical trails, etc.); hence, the experience of the individual is less relevant in terms of the overall system, and therefore any information gleaned in this approach is considered more universally reliable; because of the need for reproducibility in order for technology to be compatible on a large scale this is necessarily how the system needs must operate (for god or bad, that's another topic); "ancient" Chinese empiricism existed in a more subjective field, where the subjective experience of the observer was considered part of the phenomenon being observed; this leads to greater interpenetration of the individual and the environment, but it makes large-scale reproducibility nearly impossible; as such, as a technology per se, TCM is an artifact, as many here are aware, because of the push towards standardizing something that really not standardizable, one's personal experience!

as for "qi", to me it is a way of reconciling the subjective and objective into a system that while being grounded in persona experience, creates a framework of some sort - if it does not increase inter-examiner reliability, at least it may bolster intra-examiner; so is "qi" real? well, define real - if I have a subjective experience based on doing certain movements, or visualizations, or being the recipient of some sort of input from another person, if I experienced something "different" from my typical daily experience, I guess that's as real as anything - of course, if one lacks the technical capacity to look at the body at the cellular level, or the world at the atomic level, then I am likely to come up with some sort of explanation of that experience that fits into the context of my current word view - as there is no capacity to directly observe the actual physiological processes at a level smaller than the observable macro layer (e.g. - that which I can see, smell, touch, taste, hear or "feel"), then I will fill in the blanks based on those macro-observations to create a system that "works" for me in regards to what I do (astrology, medicine, military strategy, etc.)

so "qi" is real - it is an aggregate account of the many processes that occur in the human body and the environment within which that body exists: so it's heat, electricity, muscle tone, fluid movement (blood, lymph, etc.), respiration, digestion, etc.; these things which contemporary scientific knowledge has teased out over the last few centuries and viewed at finer and finer levels of detail (talk about internal!), encompass those macro-observations made centuries earlier; of course, many people, being unschooled in even basic physiology, still find it much easier to talk about "qi" when they subjectively experience things that do not make "sense" to them, and then blithely discount science as having no understanding of these experiences, when in fact, much of what people describe as "qi" phenomenon is well described in context of the function of the autonomic nervous system!

face it - current understanding of physiology is far beyond what was the case in 13th c. China; at the same time, from a systems-theory perspective, the framework within which the paradigm of "qi" came into ascendancy is obviously still of value, mainly because it's a relatively "easier" way of keeping in mind the various interconnections in the body when treating as a clinician - I mean, the body of knowledge is more readily encompassed by one person, because that's how it was designed initially - to be "stored" by one person and then passed on to another over time; those who think so-called "western" medicine isn't holistic are wrong - it's just that the knowledge base is so large because the info is so detailed, for one person to have all that info in their working memory and make all those interconnections without benefit of a mnemonic-style practice is very difficult

personally, I have had various "experiences" that have been verified as "authentic" by the sorts of "authorities" Hendrick is so fond of citing (Daoist (http://sathon.net/) masters, Cha'n (http://www.baus.org/baus/about_us/index.html) and Vajrayana (http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/tdbc-shyfang/article?mid=10&l=f&fid=8) monastics); personally, I don't get too hung up on this one way or another, although it is interesting to me the way in which certain reports are considered indicative of certain things; but whatever; that said, I still maintain that perceiving "qi" as a metaphor for aggregate function of the human organism in its environment will get one a lot ****her in general, or at least will stop one from searching out some sort of "other" force that exists independent of all those readily observed bodily emissions, such as heat, movement, bioelectricity, etc.;

[taai gihk yahn]

I get similar sensations during prolonged qigong practice. I feel gradually building heat and tingling sensations around my upper chest and arms area and . I sometimes feel a type of "heat rush" through some joints during moving qigong.

It can feel a little strange in the beginning.

HW108

welcome back! how was the weather in Banned Land the second time around?


I am not so sure what we talk about is the same thing. you need a legit sifu to verify for you.

A word of caution is that seeking heat sensation and sometimes forcefully create it via stress of mind is one of number one cause for mis-practice Qigong.

Qi sometimes is cool and light instead of heat. So nothing fix. One needs a teacher.
the coolness, IMPE, is as if a light breeze is infusing through each of the joints and around the body in general during movement (during taiji practice specifically) - hard to explain, highly subjective, but from a qualitative perspective very different than when it's not there; first occurred after having experienced "hing" (liteness) phenomenon for some time;

now it's like when I do the form it's as if it's one continuous movement from start to finish without having to re-start at any point in the form - the analogy would be as if the form was done in one long breath, as opposed to lots of little ones; this seems relevant to mention because it seems as if it's the aggregate of all the various stages I have gone through in the past (rootedness, micro-cosmic orbit, liteness, etc.); so I guess I've mastered it, so I'm done now

[Hardwork108]

I am not so sure what we talk about is the same thing. you need a legit sifu to verify for you.

A word of caution is that seeking heat sensation and sometimes forcefully create it via stress of mind is one of number one cause for mis-practice Qigong.

Qi sometimes is cool and light instead of heat. So nothing fix. One needs a teacher.

The qigong exercises that I mentioned were all prescribed by my Wing Chun sifu some years ago. He said that it was expected to get these feelings and sensations when doing such exercises. :)

However, I agree that these exercises have to be learnt from real sifus as they can be harmful if practiced in the wrong manner.

HW8

[Hardwork108]

welcome back!

Thank you. Good to be back :)



how was the weather in Banned Land the second time around?

:confused:???????

Better than the weather in New York's knucklehead MA gyms??? :p


HW8

PS. You can pretend all you want but I know that you missed me dearly. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Thank you. Good to be back :)
Gene must have been in one of his more beneficent moods...
that, and you obviously don't deal well with repeated rejection; talk about knuckle-headed (and I'm sure that you will, certain as the day follows the dawn ;))


:confused:???????
still disoriented?!? you'd think all that time away would have cleared your head...


Better than the weather in New York's knucklehead MA gyms??? :p
you can go right ahead check it out (http://www.wunderground.com/US/NY/New_York.html) for yourself


PS. You can pretend all you want but I know that you missed me dearly. :D
if that makes you feel better, then you go right ahead and think that, old chum ;)

[Hardwork108]

Gene must have been in one of his more beneficent moods...
that, and you obviously don't deal well with repeated rejection; talk about knuckle-headed (and I'm sure that you will, certain as the day follows the dawn ;))


still disoriented?!? you'd think all that time away would have cleared your head...


you can go right ahead check it out (http://www.wunderground.com/US/NY/New_York.html) for yourself


if that makes you feel better, then you go right ahead and think that, old chum ;)

I know what you are trying to do but this is a good Wing Chun thread and I would advise you not to hijack or destroy it.

If you want to "discuss" anything with me then take it to the main forum (or even PM me), otherwise leave this thread in peace.

Thanks in advance.:)

HW108

PS.The fact that you and some of your forum friends are still posting here stands testament to how beneficent and kind Gene can be.

I really thought that you might had "evolved".

[taai gihk yahn]

I know what you are trying to do but this is a good Wing Chun thread and I would advise you not to hijack or destroy it.
If you want to "discuss" anything with me then take it to the main forum (or even PM me), otherwise leave this thread in peace.
LOL; I'm "trying" to do anything - I said "hi"and of course you right away had to throw in a "knuckled head" comment, so if anyone is responsible for "destroying" this thread, as you so dramatically put it, it's you; and, as is typical, you seem to have missed the two posts I made directly on topic; instead of whining, why don't you speak to them? or not, whatever;


Thanks in advance.:)
you are welcome


PS.The fact that you and some of your forum friends are still posting here stands testament to how beneficent and kind Gene can be.
I really thought that you might had "evolved".
the fact that you are back here w/the same attitude is testament to how Gene can be generous to a fault; and somehow I doubt you have given much thought to anything in regards to my "evolution" at all; as far as lack of evolution though, you'd think after being banned twice that maybe you might want to engage in a little critical self-assessment; for example, as is typical for you, you took a little light banter and used it to create a straw man, accusing me of trying to hijack the thread when clearly I have not; but that's your typical m.o. - so clearly, a lack of evolution applies to you; but that's ok if you discount my opinion on this, and really, I'm not going to perseverate on this or any other aspects of your posting style, so if you want to engage in rancorous manner, I'm just going to opt-out on that this time around; that said, if you want to interact, why don't you respond to my various on-topic posts and we can just go from there?

[taai gihk yahn]

When holding the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Posture(Stance) the Kuit Kuen says:



How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....

2 of the taiji principles are:
heih lauh jow tin: qi completes the microcosmic orbit; this is a very specific practice that directly addresses "filling" the dan tien by opening up the governance and conception vessels through various sorts of inner practice (in English, it's a way to regulate and increase to some extent conscious control of ones autonomic nervous system function); it is a fundamental "internal" practice, it is to internal as basic stance training is to external (not that these distinctions actually exist, but anyway); any complete internal practice (martial or heath) necessarily has to have this in one form or another - if your system talks about filing the dan tien, then it would suggest that this practice was part of it at one point and was lost or it still is part of it but is not taught openly; or I'm wrong;
heih daht sei sau: qi arrives at the 4 extremities (teeth, skin, hair, nails) - use what you feel at these 4 terminae to assess the state of qi flow in the body

while these are taiji principles and not wing chun, I think it's fair to say that there are certain commonalities in all TCMA that make the above germaine to WC practice...

[Hardwork108]

I am glad that we are back on topic at hand.



We've been through this too much.

Chinese used the term "Qi" to discuss a phenomenon of change and discussed it in an eloquent way.

You have many kinds of Qi:

Da Qi - Big Qi of the planet, the air you breathe
Zong Qi - The Qi in your Chest
Zhen Qi - the Proper Qi
Ying Qi - Qi flowing in the channels
Gu Qi - Qi of the grain/food you eat
Wei Qi - your defensive Qi - basically, your energetic field surrounding your body
Yuan Qi - Qi that your parents gave to you

This is all in the paradigm of Chinese medicine and metaphysics. By judging it solely by "scientific" proof, well, you have a problem in translation and judging a world view that explained phenomena for thousands of years before "science" was born.

That was a great explanation Robert. I just wonder how many of the none believer "kung fu" practioners here will take the time to research and look into the definitions you have put forward so as to come to a more informed understanding of the phenomenom popularly known as Chi.



Many martial artists have no real understanding of Qi...

Some of the responses in this thread stand testimony to that statement, However, I am hopeful that things will at least partially change in the future, thanks to kung fu exponents such as yourself and Hendrik, who are bringing informed discussion on this subject to forums such as this one. :)

[Hendrik]

躺 女 弓
坐 女 钟
站 女 桩
行 女 風


isnt it tell how much one really know their stuffs?

in this case, hmmm.

[taai gihk yahn]

躺 女 弓
坐 女 钟
站 女 桩
行 女 風


isnt it tell how much one really know their stuffs?

in this case, hmmm.

yeah, wrong middle character, LOL - should be "如" (thanks CFT ;) ); it's what happens when you're trying to figure out how to use an online Chinese dictionary and talking to someone at the same time; and also two further corrections, pointed out to me by my manly-friend, Bawang & CFT; dang hom0phones - next time I'm going to go check my notes first instead of winging it!

and of course, yes, the fact that I made what amounted to typos ('cause, ya know, CHinese isn't exactly my native tongue, I have been known to make mistakes in it from time to time...) is an obvious indication of my complete lack of understanding about what the lines mean in terms of their real-world practice and application, or really anything related to taiji, qigong or internal practice in general

so thanks, Hendrick, for so graciously pointing out this crass error on my part; and to do so in such a straightforward and non-condescending manner! so now you can go back to mendicating to the rest of the forum in your own inimitable style, to point out our many, MANY flaws; and to no doubt do so using the English language in a manner that would make Keats, Milton and Shaw proud!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello!


The Chi thread is still going and going and going hahahaha....... :eek:


Robert wrote:


This is all in the paradigm of Chinese medicine and metaphysics. By judging it solely by "scientific" proof, well, you have a problem in translation and judging a world view that explained phenomena for thousands of years before "science" was born.

***

I like this post as it means a lot with regards to what people believe. Especially scientists! See, if it was not for high tech computers and other technology many of todays beliefs would still be regarded as voodoo to the science community or untrained practitioner. But, when they develop some new instrument to measure things the naked eye cannot see everyone jumps on it like it is something new under the sun but the reality is it actually confirms much of what the ancients have told us.

Not long ago MIT's Traditional Medicine Society has even held an event called; Channeling Qi! They had a panel of people talking about Qi and its benefits but sadly the Qi demonstrations were nothing more than Hung Gar done at Taiji speed. I prefer Dr. Bensons work on the Tibet Qigong called Tun Mo aka, the meditation of Inner Heat but am happy both institutions are active in this field of research!

http://tms.scripts.mit.edu/newsite/index.php

The one thing we must consider is that:

How does one experience the wonders of Nature if one is not in tune with Nature or in the so-called Natural State??? How do you speculate about the taste of Italian food if you never ate Italian food? No book of college education can tell you this!

The 3 basics to start training are Mind, Body & Breath must be in the natural state for the energy realm to begin to surface. So, this requires conditioning of all three gradually over time. All the talk of Micro and Macro this or that is a mile down the road and can trap one into wild speculation.

1) Physically your body must be released! Muscles, tendons, joints etc. all softened and loose. The spine must decompress. The ankles, wrists, neck, ming men will be targeted during this process. The pelvic griddle muscle be dissolved to establish the floating etc.......

2) Your mind must be calm. Obviously this will address the meditation aspects of the training!

3) Your breathing must be EFFORTLESS!

Without the above 3 in check there is no possible chance for Qi cultivation! Qi has a mysterious side to it and even one of my teachers told me something about one of his sifu's: Jim, he had an abundance of the mysterious! Trying to explain how Qi is cultivated within the body brings up unusual stuff that sounds odd but truly is simple and has to be simple otherwise it would have little value. It must first sink to the Dan Tien and then the rest is easy.

What Hendrik is discussing are the Hsin Faat Sum Faat of Noi Gong. The Heart/Mind Methods!


Gotta run!

[Jim Roselando]

A write up from MIT on Qi!

http://tms.scripts.mit.edu/qi/?p=274

**********


What is Qi?

A mystery to be explored…

While there is no definitive answer, here’s one suggestion.
.

Excerpt from Kaptchuk, Ted. “The Fundamental Textures: Qi, Blood, Essence, Spirit, and Fluids.” The Web That Has No Weaver – Understanding Chinese Medicine, 2nd Ed. McGraw-Hill: U.S. 2000.

.

“The notion of Qi is as fundamental to Chinese culture and medical thought as Yin and Yang. Like these polar complementary opposites, no one English word or phrase can adequately capture Qi’s meaning. One can say that, for the Chinese, everything in the universe, inorganic and organic, is composed of and defined by its Qi. Mountains, plants, and human emotions all have Qi. Qi is not so much a force added to lifeless matter but the state of being of any phenomena. For the Chinese, Qi is the pulsation of the cosmos itself.

Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy t the point of materializing. But it is far beyond this simple attempt to bridge the chasm of a western dichotomy. In a single syllable, the word Qi proclaims one of the deepest root intuitions of Chinese civilization.

Qi is the thread connecting all being. Qi is the common denominator of all things – from mineral to human. Qi allows any phenomenon t o maintain its cohesiveness, grow, and transform into other forms. Metamorphosis is possible because Qi takes myriad forms. Qi is the potential and actualization of transformation. The universe moves – ceaselessly manifests and engenders because of Qi. Qi is the fundamental quality of being and becoming.

Without Qi, there would be no Yin and Yang. Qi is the universe’s underlying plastic texture that explains change, the inexhaustible ink of the world. Qi takes countless forms, Qi allows things to become other things. But Qi is more than cause. Qi is the cause, process, and outcome of all activity in the cosmos. Qi is the ceaseless throbbing, the substratum of the cosmos.

In the classical physics and the common parlance of the modern West, change is produced by one object exerting a force on another: change is from external movement. Matter is inert, external force propels change. There is a basic dichotomy. (Obviously, modern notions of physics have begun to modify these notions, but for modern medicine and everyday reality, these notions persist.) As we have mentioned earlier, for the Chinese, causation is primarily an inner transformation. Qi does not “cause” change; Qi is present before, during, and after any metamorphosis. The change has to do with the manifestation of what is already inherent in the earlier state. Things transform because Qi takes on different forms. Qi is the propensity or inclinations of things. “At the most embryonic stage, the tendency toward the fullness of actualization is already latent.”

While change is primarily internal, forms of being can influence other forms of being. Things “evoke” change in other things. For the Chinese, this kind of “causing” or “inductance,” however, is not because of an external compulsion. Things influence other things because they “connect” or “elicit” what is already a “disposition” in things. This ability for one thing to influence another is called in Chinese gan ying, which is usually translated “resonance.” If Qi is the link, resonance is the method.

The Qi of the sun, rain, and soil resonate with the Qi of the seed to bring forth a plant that already contains the germ of the plant and qualities that the sun, rain, and soil touch. Anger can be an aggressive awareness of another person; self-reflection can foster the “same” Qi of awareness to manifest as a benevolent concern for the other. The Qi of illness can be transformed into healthy Qi by a medicine that resonates between the two particular states. Illness contains the seed of health. Resonance is the process “by which a thing, when stimulated, spontaneously responds according to the natural guidelines of the particular phases of vital energy engendered in itself and active in the situation.” The Qi does not “cause” change; the Qi is present before, during, and after the transformation. One Qi elicits the propensity of another Qi that shares a similar kind of “frequency.” Things “energize” each other. Through resonance, one Qi evokes another.

Resonance allows the universe (or any of its parts) to influence a human being. In fact, the macrocosm-microcosm relationship discussed earlier is possible because of resonance. The universe can affect a human being because a person already contains latent forms of the cosmic Qi. Otherwise, a person would be impervious to outside influences. Causality is relationships of resonance and resemblance. Connection, contact, and compulsion is the intimacy of similar Qi. The Nei Jing eloquently explains:

Heaven is round and Earth is square; the roundness of the head and squareness of the Earth resonate accordingly. Heaven has the sun and the moon, human have two eyes; Earth has nine provinces, humans have nine orifices; Heaven has thunder and lightning, humans have sound and speech; Heave has wind and rain, humans have joy and anger…. Heaven has five musical sounds, humans have five Yin Organs. … Heaven has winter and summer, humans have cold and hot; Heaven has Yin and Yang and humans have husband and wife. … Earth has twelve rivers, humans have twelve Meridians. … Heave has morning and evening, humans go to sleep and awake. … Earth has times of no crop, so humans can be childless. In these ways, Heaven and Earth resonate with humans.*

The Chinese believe that the human “cosmos in miniature” is a statement of relationship and “fact.” For the Chinese, the landscape metaphor of the last chapter is more than a descriptive device. It is a statement of resonance and interpenetration. Components of the universe, the Qi of herbs (plants, animal parts, and stones), acupuncture points (junctions of the human rivers), lifestyle activities (movement and rest, food, and relationships), or living environment (seasons, weather, or even air conditioning) share a resonating frequency that already exists in a person. A medicine or a conscious shift in a person’s behavior can resonate with the condition within a person (e.g. a pattern of a disharmony) and induce a person toward health. Also, the different layers of human life, as disparate as the corporeal, psychological, ecological, and moral mutually interact for the same reason: their various forms of Qi resonate. Qi is the cosmic breath that unites disparate forms.”

——————–

* Classic of the Spiritual Axis with Vernacular Explanation [2], sec. 10, chap. 71, p.471. This text, hereafter referred to as the Ling Shu, is the second half of the Nei Jing. Tu Wei-ming has stressed that “the notion of humanity as forming one body with the universe has been so widely accepted by the Chinese, in popular as well as elite culture, that it can very well be characterized as a general Chinese world view.” Confucian Thought, 1985, p.43.

[m1k3]

In case anyone is interested, an event held at MIT
by a new ASA-recognized group at MIT devoted to exploring traditional medicine methods as quoted from their web page does not constitute any sort of scientific endorsement of CHI.

It was a demonstration, a discussion and an event. That's all.

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

[Jim Roselando]

The scientist made a fair statement when he wrote:

What is Qi?

A mystery to be explored…


***

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

***

Sadly, it seems the only people who get their little panties hot are those (well some) who are on the other side of the debate. :eek:

Oh no! They said, Qi!!! Send out the troops! ROFLMAO

[Hardwork108]

The scientist made a fair statement when he wrote:

What is Qi?

A mystery to be explored…


***

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

***

Sadly, it seems the only people who get their little panties hot are those (well some) who are on the other side of the debate. :eek:

Oh no! They said, Qi!!! Send out the troops! ROFLMAO

It seems that many people mistakenly believe that if modern science cannot solve or explain the "mystery" of chi, then chi doesn't exist, Lol.

It seems that modern science is kind of behind ancient Chinese knowledge, in this area at least.;)

HW108

[SAAMAG]

The scientist made a fair statement when he wrote:

What is Qi?

A mystery to be explored…


***

No need to get your knickers in a twist.

***

Sadly, it seems the only people who get their little panties hot are those (well some) who are on the other side of the debate. :eek:

Oh no! They said, Qi!!! Send out the troops! ROFLMAO

That's a good post Jim.

I think though...in terms of the boldened part...to be fair it is not when chi is mentioned, but when the existence and application of it gets a little too far fetched. For example, there are people out there that believe they can actually shoot out chi and defeat an enemy that is 20 feet in front of them--like in the street fighter game. Not to mention that every single person that gets investigated by a third party on their chi-based abilities gets proven to be a fraud when the recipients of the chi demonstration are not "believers".

[HumbleWCGuy]

There is no mystery behind chi because it doesn't exist. The "mystery" if there is any still left has to do with documenting legitimate feats that are reported to be chi related and assigning a medical explanation to them. The other issues it to debunk con artists who are making more extraordinary claims that are performed through the use of slight of hand and magician's tricks.

[chusauli]

If I take just 1 part of Zong Qi and how it is related to Zhen Qi, Da Qi and Gu Qi, perhaps I can explain the metaphor.

Zong Qi is your Qi in your chest - how the incoming Da Qi (Air) mixes with Gu Qi (Nutrients from food), and circulates in your body as Zhen Qi (Nutritive Qi).

If any of you know respiration, Kreb's cycle, and circulation, you understand what the ancient Chinese were describing these processes with the term "Qi". Of course today, we are better in some ways of describing these processes, but amazing to think the ancients were quite capable in their powers of observation of nature.

[SAAMAG]

Well I wouldn't go to that extreme Humble....

The human race doubles knowledge in half the time over and over and over. We may end up finding things out about the human body that we never knew before.

Ancient Chinese medicine was developed with the knowledge at hand at the time. So some things are theorized...just like with Science today. Einstein's theory was broken supposedly a few days ago when particles were transferred faster than the speed of light. IF that's validated (I haven't checked since I read about it) that's going to change the way we look at time and space.

Same thing goes with the human ability. While I don't believe of far fetched examples of using chi as some weapon, I do believe that chi is a form of intrinsic life energy.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To say that chi is just energy created from food and oxygen mixed is reasonable but it blows apart when chi is talked about as being electro-magnetic or transferable from one location to another. The body contains no such system that transports and stores any type of current or field from one location to another. The body and the consumption of what is ultimately glucose happens on a cellular level with trillions of discrete processes. The pancreas is a place that can regulate this consumption through the production of insulin, but insulin and other metabolic regulators simply disperse and affect cells individually. Also, the electrical processes conducted in the body have been shown to be discrete.

[Jim Roselando]

Van wrote:


That's a good post Jim.

I think though...in terms of the boldened part...to be fair it is not when chi is mentioned, but when the existence and application of it gets a little too far fetched.


***


Thanks! The whole Qi Blast is BS IMO. Some call it Empty Force but I call it Empty Farce. :)

[SAAMAG]

To say that chi is just energy created from food and oxygen mixed is reasonable but it blows apart when chi is talked about as being electro-magnetic or transferable from one location to another. The body contains no such system that transports and stores any type of current or field from one location to another. The body and the consumption of what is ultimately glucose happens on a cellular level with trillions of discrete processes. The pancreas is a place that can regulate this consumption through the production of insulin, but insulin and other metabolic regulators simply disperse and affect cells individually. Also, the electrical processes conducted in the body have been shown to be discrete.

Absolutely...agreed on all points. I think it could have more been simply a way to describe the general health of someone. But with the knowledge of anatomy that we have today...with knowledge of biomechanical processes and life down to a checmical level...I just can't believe what some people will fall for.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Well I wouldn't go to that extreme Humble....

The human race doubles knowledge in half the time over and over and over. We may end up finding things out about the human body that we never knew before.

Ancient Chinese medicine was developed with the knowledge at hand at the time. So some things are theorized...just like with Science today. Einstein's theory was broken supposedly a few days ago when particles were transferred faster than the speed of light. IF that's validated (I haven't checked since I read about it) that's going to change the way we look at time and space.

Same thing goes with the human ability. While I don't believe of far fetched examples of using chi as some weapon, I do believe that chi is a form of intrinsic life energy.

Your first two points support what I have been saying. Your second two points do not logically follow from points 1 and 2. **Edit: Although, I am not 100% sure of your conception of chi.

Your 4 points.
1. Knowledge is increasing exponentially (i.e. doubling at double its previous rate over a given time period)
2. Knowledge has expanded so much that even Einsteins theories are beginning to falter.
3. Chi is old so we should believe in it
4. I want to believe in chi as it is necessary for life although it doesn't do anything otherwise.


The longer you go back in human history the much longer it took for knowledge to accumulate. Taking 1000 years for chi to develop as a medical, philosophical, and martial concept is not impressive. Lets look at something very concrete like projectile technology. The spear (probably as old as human existence) to the bow 40, 000 years ago and the gun 500 years ago? How accurate is a theory on chi?

Chi is more sophisticated than blood letting but it isn't modern medicine by a darn sight. In projectile technology terms, chi is an osage orange bow (a quality Native American Bow) but today we have the A-bomb.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Absolutely...agreed on all points. I think it could have more been simply a way to describe the general health of someone. But with the knowledge of anatomy that we have today...with knowledge of biomechanical processes and life down to a checmical level...I just can't believe what some people will fall for.

I can get on board with that but I get upset because people can't leave it there.

[SAAMAG]

Your first two points support what I have been saying. Your second two points do not logically follow from points 1 and 2. **Edit: Although, I am not 100% sure of your conception of chi.

Your 4 points.
1. Knowledge is increasing exponentially (i.e. doubling at double its previous rate over a given time period)
2. Knowledge has expanded so much that even Einsteins theories are beginning to falter.
3. Chi is old so we should believe in it
4. I want to believe in chi as it is necessary for life although it doesn't do anything otherwise.


The longer you go back in human history the much longer it took for knowledge to accumulate. Taking 1000 years for chi to develop as a medical, philosophical, and martial concept is not impressive. Lets look at something very concrete like projectile technology. The spear (probably as old as human existence) to the bow 40, 000 years ago and the gun 500 years ago? How accurate is a theory on chi?

Chi is more sophisticated than blood letting but it isn't modern medicine by a darn sight. In projectile technology terms, chi is an osage orange bow (a quality Native American Bow) but today we have the A-bomb.


I can get on board with that but I get upset because people can't leave it there.

That second response pretty much summed it up on the points thing. The first two points are right in terms of what I was thinking, the second two not so much, but it got answered with the most recent post.

It's the best theory at those times to explain various processes of the human body...martial or otherwise. Today it just continues to flourish from those who simply don't want to accept the facts on hand based on the todays technology.

[Scott R. Brown]

躺 女 弓
坐 女 钟
站 女 桩
行 女 風


isnt it tell how much one really know their stuffs?

in this case, hmmm.

Well if we are going to make assessments based upon each others command of a second language, then we would have to conclude that you are a complete moron, since your ability to communicate in English is deplorable!

OH WAIT!! We have concluded you are a complete moron, but at least that is based upon the content of your posts and not your command of English!


yeah, wrong middle character...!

I got a middle character right here for you, nlnn!

[taai gihk yahn]

I got a middle character right here for you, nlnn!

that's not in any of the online Chinese dictionaries I have...:confused:...r u sure u got it right?

I dunno Scott, maybe you should just stick to your usual vocabulastardization?


oh, but what the hel1 do I know anyway about ANYTHING <throws up hands>

[Hardwork108]

Well if we are going to make assessments based upon each others command of a second language, then we would have to conclude that you are a complete moron, since your ability to communicate in English is deplorable!

OH WAIT!! We have concluded you are a complete moron, but at least that is based upon the content of your posts and not your command of English!



I got a middle character right here for you, nlnn!

That was unnecessary, harsh and uncalled for!

[Scott R. Brown]

that's not in any of the online Chinese dictionaries I have...:confused:...r u sure u got it right

It's a pictograph! Use what little imagination you have, you'll figure it out!:eek:


That was unnecessary, harsh and uncalled for!

Which one?:D

[Wayfaring]

If I take just 1 part of Zong Qi and how it is related to Zhen Qi, Da Qi and Gu Qi, perhaps I can explain the metaphor.

Zong Qi is your Qi in your chest - how the incoming Da Qi (Air) mixes with Gu Qi (Nutrients from food), and circulates in your body as Zhen Qi (Nutritive Qi).

If any of you know respiration, Kreb's cycle, and circulation, you understand what the ancient Chinese were describing these processes with the term "Qi". Of course today, we are better in some ways of describing these processes, but amazing to think the ancients were quite capable in their powers of observation of nature.

There's a lot of merit in looking at qi from this perspective. The ancient Egyptians did brain surgery. Qi from this perspective is probably Chinese culture's medical advancements prior to modern medical advancements with technology.

Of course it doesn't support all the delusional fantasy guys who want to defeat their opponents by "flowing chi" or shooting fireballs out of their @ss through some form of "internal" training.

[chusauli]

As for Qi balls and moving people with their qi demo's, I think they are largely fake. Perhaps I have never met the right people.

I have been exposed to Wai Qi Zhi Liao, Pranic Healing, Reiki, Shamanic healing and other non contact energy healing which requires the patient to be relaxed where the person treating is manipulating the Wei Qi (Protective Qi/Aura) - causing a surge in the Zhen Qi, and movement of energy along the acupuncture channels. I can say with certainty - that it works and I have seen and even felt the effects.

Of course, this is in the realm of healing, and not used as a weapon.

[Yoshiyahu]

As for Qi balls and moving people with their qi demo's, I think they are largely fake. Perhaps I have never met the right people.

I have been exposed to Wai Qi Zhi Liao, Pranic Healing, Reiki, Shamanic healing and other non contact energy healing which requires the patient to be relaxed where the person treating is manipulating the Wei Qi (Protective Qi/Aura) - causing a surge in the Zhen Qi, and movement of energy along the acupuncture channels. I can say with certainty - that it works and I have seen and even felt the effects.

Of course, this is in the realm of healing, and not used as a weapon.

If it aint fake...does it really matter. Chances are if someone spends their life developing chi force to move objects and create visable energy spheres. Chances are they fighting ability will be Nil to Zilch. An sure they can put on a fantastic show of Chi Ability but in actual combat it will be utterless useless and more times then not i am sure these chi masters would get their Arse kicked. In old days in china Chi masters died first and fighters died second!


The original Purpose of this Thread:

When holding the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Posture(Stance) the Kuit Kuen says:



How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....

[taai gihk yahn]

How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....
believe that I did; got no response though...;)

srsly, would be curious if what I posted from a taiji perspective was relevant to a WC one...

[taai gihk yahn]

I have been exposed to Wai Qi Zhi Liao, Pranic Healing, Reiki, Shamanic healing and other non contact energy healing which requires the patient to be relaxed where the person treating is manipulating the Wei Qi (Protective Qi/Aura) - causing a surge in the Zhen Qi, and movement of energy along the acupuncture channels. I can say with certainty - that it works and I have seen and even felt the effects.
IMPE, having done lots of that stuff myself, I have three words: placebo, entrainment, autonomics (all of which are very real and all of which are very powerful, mind you - just not as esoteric as some folks would like for it to be!)


Of course, this is in the realm of healing, and not used as a weapon.
although the way some practitioners work, it's hard to tell the difference :eek:

[SAAMAG]

IMPE, having done lots of that stuff myself, I have three words: placebo, entrainment, autonomics (all of which are very real and all of which are very powerful, mind you - just not as esoteric as some folks would like for it to be!)


although the way some practitioners work, it's hard to tell the difference :eek:

Did you know that on the field when morphine was low they'd inject saltwater into soldiers telling them that it was morphine, and it would help to ease their pain for a little while? The placebo effect is strong indeed. It just goes to show you what sort of control the mind can have over brain patterns and the CNS.

I honestly believe that the theories on chi related to the human body (health-wise) are just a matter of semantics in this day and age. Good post.

[taai gihk yahn]

Did you know that on the field when morphine was low they'd inject saltwater into soldiers telling them that it was morphine, and it would help to ease their pain for a little while? The placebo effect is strong indeed. It just goes to show you what sort of control the human brain can have over things like the nervous system.

yes, and I for one am a big advocate for responsible use of placebo effect - both by patients as well as practitioners; meaning that patient's might take it upon themselves to learn how to have more conscious control over the phenomenon, and practitioners should buy a bridge and get over themselves when they think that they have done something amazing, mystical esoteric, etc. - the human organism has a wonderful capacity to leverage itself towards homeostasis using just about anything remotely "therapeutic" as a fulcrum, including touch, intention and even presence; the problem is that it seems so "out of the ordinary" that people use it as some sort of weird justification for the existence of all kinds of hoo-doo voo-doo...

[SAAMAG]

yes, and I for one am a big advocate for responsible use of placebo effect - both by patients as well as practitioners; meaning that patient's might take it upon themselves to learn how to have more conscious control over the phenomenon, and practitioners should buy a bridge and get over themselves when they think that they have done something amazing, mystical esoteric, etc. - the human organism has a wonderful capacity to leverage itself towards homeostasis using just about anything remotely "therapeutic" as a fulcrum, including touch, intention and even presence; the problem is that it seems so "out of the ordinary" that people use it as some sort of weird justification for the existence of all kinds of hoo-doo voo-doo...

And of course for threads like this...but its good to pass the day until training time.

[taai gihk yahn]

I honestly believe that the theories on chi related to the human body (health-wise) are just a matter of semantics in this day and age. Good post.
"qi" is a functional metaphorical descriptor - it is a vehicle for organizing a variety of patterned observations into a system of usable knowledge; it's not some sort of "other" force, but rather encompasses a variety of things like heat, electricity, light, kinetic energy, etc.: it is a way of qualifying function, / discerning dysfunction in the aggregate of various organ systems, and also has prognostic and predictive value: not bad considering it is based almost entirely on subjective assessment! it also seems to enable the practitioner to discern / make use of signs that from a contemporary perspective would be considered sub-clinical; overall, it allows one to get a handle on the complex interactions that occur without having to be reductive to the degree that biomed practice can get;
so "qi" is very real - it's just that from a contemporary perspective, the things it describes in toto can be broken down and looked at more discretely - sometimes to better effect, others perhaps missing the forrest for the trees...

[SAAMAG]

"qi" is a functional metaphorical descriptor - it is a vehicle for organizing a variety of patterned observations into a system of usable knowledge; it's not some sort of "other" force, but rather encompasses a variety of things like heat, electricity, light, kinetic energy, etc.: it is a way of qualifying function, / discerning dysfunction in the aggregate of various organ systems, and also has prognostic and predictive value: not bad considering it is based almost entirely on subjective assessment! it also seems to enable the practitioner to discern / make use of signs that from a contemporary perspective would be considered sub-clinical; overall, it allows one to get a handle on the complex interactions that occur without having to be reductive to the degree that biomed practice can get;
so "qi" is very real - it's just that from a contemporary perspective, the things it describes in toto can be broken down and looked at more discretely - sometimes to better effect, others perhaps missing the forrest for the trees...

Agreed on all counts. To be fair...early western medicine was based on a lot of subjective observation as well scientific hypothesis testing. Its the technology in recent years that's allowed wester med to improve the way it has. That said, it is impressive to see how the Chinese developed their medicine with such accuracy all things considered.

Funny, I was just explaining kinetic energy to my fiancee a few minutes ago too.

[taai gihk yahn]

Agreed on all counts. To be fair...early western medicine was based on a lot of subjective observation as well scientific hypothesis testing. Its the technology in recent years that's allowed wester med to improve the way it has. That said, it is impressive to see how the Chinese developed their medicine with such accuracy all things considered.

Funny, I was just explaining kinetic energy to my fiancee a few minutes ago too.

so-called "western" medicine for most of its existence was based on models more similar to TCM than not (e.g. - 4 humors, etc.); at its inception, germ / biological approach was ridiculed as total quackery, at least until it started getting much better results than bleeding people did...

incidentally, Europe was exposed to a great deal of Chinese medicine over the last several centuries: France in particular has had a luv affair w/acupuncture since at least the 1700's, AFAIK; and of course, naturopathy, homeopathy, chiropractic, osteopathy are all "western" approaches that read more like TCM than biomed approach;

finally, the thing about contemporary biomed approach - it's holistic; I mean, you have subspecialties, but there is certainly an appreciation for the body as a whole, at least in theory - the things that trips up this concept in practice is a) the economics of medical practice; b) the insane amount of information within each subspecialty which almost necessarily precludes an interdisciplinary approach; however, this is more in the US - my wife is a Russian trained OB/GYN (as well as a French-trained osteopath to boot!), and when she practices she is constantly looking at things that typicaly would be looked at by cardiology, hematology, neurology, etc. (and as a result has gotten quite a local rep for being the "go to" gal for difficult cases); and a lot of other docs find this amazing that she knows so much - her response is that this is how she was trained, especially given that "over there" they rely very heavily on clinical medicine, as opposed to hi-tech diagnostics...

[chusauli]

The original Purpose of this Thread:

When holding the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Posture(Stance) the Kuit Kuen says:

How does one fill the Dan Tien?

How do you distribute chi???

Please share your opinion....

Yoshi,

The answer has been with you all along:

The Dan Tian is filled with good sleep, proper nutrition, less stress, healthy emotions, proper exercise and avoiding activities that drain the Dan Tian (Excessive sex (no gobs of Kidney Jing wasted), strong emotions like hatred, jealousy, etc., injury, prolonged illness).

Qi is distributed naturally through the training process and with the good health.

"Distribute the strength to all parts of the body" also refers to using the intention (Yee Nim), to make movements - these in turn move the qi and blood.

These are exactly what the Kuen Kuit mean in the Chinese medicine/metaphysical sense.

What don't you understand, or is this a case of "Johnny can't read..."? :)

[Yoshiyahu]

believe that I did; got no response though...;)

srsly, would be curious if what I posted from a taiji perspective was relevant to a WC one...

Actually I enjoyed your response much earlier...Thanks Taai Gihk...But what I am really asking is for those who have not answered to give their input...Those who are on here trying to debate Chi existence or who simply reduce chi to western scientific explanations....I am looking for their insight and understanding. What i am doing is simply trying to invoke an intellectual dialog of difference studies and practice. I want everyone to stay on topic and discuss my original purpose for starting this thread....Thanks alot for your answer...As well as some others who have given great answers!!!!!


Yoshi,

The answer has been with you all along:

The Dan Tian is filled with good sleep, proper nutrition, less stress, healthy emotions, proper exercise and avoiding activities that drain the Dan Tian (Excessive sex (no gobs of Kidney Jing wasted), strong emotions like hatred, jealousy, etc., injury, prolonged illness).

Qi is distributed naturally through the training process and with the good health.

"Distribute the strength to all parts of the body" also refers to using the intention (Yee Nim), to make movements - these in turn move the qi and blood.

These are exactly what the Kuen Kuit mean in the Chinese medicine/metaphysical sense.

What don't you understand, or is this a case of "Johnny can't read..."? :)

Thank you Robert Chu...I remember you sharing this with us earlier. i am grateful for your reply very very true....The whole gobs of kidney jing makes me laugh...ha ha...but I am not Johnnny an i can read english as well as very little hebrew. But Thank you for bringing the topic back to my original focus. Now if your able to try to get others back to same mindset...

[taai gihk yahn]

Actually I enjoyed your response much earlier...Thanks Taai Gihk...But what I am really asking is for those who have not answered to give their input...
well, having read my "answers", what are ur thoughts (or others) in regards to them? I mean, does the nature of your experience reflect mine (that is, what I write is not simply regurgitation of dead CHinese guy's writings - if I write something, it's because I have experienced it directly, and it coincides w/the "ancient" teachings); u want dialogue? let's go then :D


Those who are on here trying to debate Chi existence or who simply reduce chi to western scientific explanations....
I am very strongly of the opinion that providing a so-called "western explanation" to qi not only does not "reduce" or diminish it, it actually supports, bolsters and strengthens it, by demonstrating the universality of the phenomena that it describes! if it could not be described from that perspective, then it either means that the "western" perspective is inherently faulty (which it is not), or that the concept of "qi" is too culturally coded to be of any use (which it is not); my primary, my only goal, really, is to build a bridge, but not one that acts as an apologist for the failings of "western" thought, or to propagate the inscrutability / superiority of "qi" - my personal belief is that based on what I have studied / experienced in my personal practice of qigong / meditation and based on what I have learned / practiced from a "western" perspective, the "western" knowledge base is more than adequate to encompass "qi", without adding to or taking away from it - it can simply analyze it as such, in a way that does not invalidate it or seek to change it; at least that's my perspective;


I am looking for their insight and understanding. What i am doing is simply trying to invoke an intellectual dialog of difference studies and practice. I want everyone to stay on topic and discuss my original purpose for starting this thread....Thanks alot for your answer...As well as some others who have given great answers!!!!!
so, again, really, one can talk at length about the house from the outside; I'd be more curious to get into what's under the roof...

[Yoshiyahu]

this is the qoute i was referring when you shared your opinion...i am thankful for that...


the contemporary scientific method is predicated on relative objectivity (e.g. - unconnected groups of researchers arriving at same data / conclusions from an experiment, or statistical significance in randomized double-blind clinical trails, etc.); hence, the experience of the individual is less relevant in terms of the overall system, and therefore any information gleaned in this approach is considered more universally reliable; because of the need for reproducibility in order for technology to be compatible on a large scale this is necessarily how the system needs must operate (for god or bad, that's another topic); "ancient" Chinese empiricism existed in a more subjective field, where the subjective experience of the observer was considered part of the phenomenon being observed; this leads to greater interpenetration of the individual and the environment, but it makes large-scale reproducibility nearly impossible; as such, as a technology per se, TCM is an artifact, as many here are aware, because of the push towards standardizing something that really not standardizable, one's personal experience!

as for "qi", to me it is a way of reconciling the subjective and objective into a system that while being grounded in persona experience, creates a framework of some sort - if it does not increase inter-examiner reliability, at least it may bolster intra-examiner; so is "qi" real? well, define real - if I have a subjective experience based on doing certain movements, or visualizations, or being the recipient of some sort of input from another person, if I experienced something "different" from my typical daily experience, I guess that's as real as anything - of course, if one lacks the technical capacity to look at the body at the cellular level, or the world at the atomic level, then I am likely to come up with some sort of explanation of that experience that fits into the context of my current word view - as there is no capacity to directly observe the actual physiological processes at a level smaller than the observable macro layer (e.g. - that which I can see, smell, touch, taste, hear or "feel"), then I will fill in the blanks based on those macro-observations to create a system that "works" for me in regards to what I do (astrology, medicine, military strategy, etc.)

so "qi" is real - it is an aggregate account of the many processes that occur in the human body and the environment within which that body exists: so it's heat, electricity, muscle tone, fluid movement (blood, lymph, etc.), respiration, digestion, etc.; these things which contemporary scientific knowledge has teased out over the last few centuries and viewed at finer and finer levels of detail (talk about internal!), encompass those macro-observations made centuries earlier; of course, many people, being unschooled in even basic physiology, still find it much easier to talk about "qi" when they subjectively experience things that do not make "sense" to them, and then blithely discount science as having no understanding of these experiences, when in fact, much of what people describe as "qi" phenomenon is well described in context of the function of the autonomic nervous system!

face it - current understanding of physiology is far beyond what was the case in 13th c. China; at the same time, from a systems-theory perspective, the framework within which the paradigm of "qi" came into ascendancy is obviously still of value, mainly because it's a relatively "easier" way of keeping in mind the various interconnections in the body when treating as a clinician - I mean, the body of knowledge is more readily encompassed by one person, because that's how it was designed initially - to be "stored" by one person and then passed on to another over time; those who think so-called "western" medicine isn't holistic are wrong - it's just that the knowledge base is so large because the info is so detailed, for one person to have all that info in their working memory and make all those interconnections without benefit of a mnemonic-style practice is very difficult

personally, I have had various "experiences" that have been verified as "authentic" by the sorts of "authorities" Hendrick is so fond of citing (Daoist (http://sathon.net/) masters, Cha'n (http://www.baus.org/baus/about_us/index.html) and Vajrayana (http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/tdbc-shyfang/article?mid=10&l=f&fid=8) monastics); personally, I don't get too hung up on this one way or another, although it is interesting to me the way in which certain reports are considered indicative of certain things; but whatever; that said, I still maintain that perceiving "qi" as a metaphor for aggregate function of the human organism in its environment will get one a lot ****her in general, or at least will stop one from searching out some sort of "other" force that exists independent of all those readily observed bodily emissions, such as heat, movement, bioelectricity, etc.;


In your opinion how does one move the Chi to the Dan Tien?

[dirtyrat]

In your opinion how does one move the Chi to the Dan Tien?

From a health standpoint, oriental doctors say that disease happens when the natural flow of qi in the body is blocked or disrupted somehow.

Perhaps you can start the search for your answer there... ;)

[Hendrik]

From a health standpoint, oriental doctors say that disease happens when the natural flow of qi in the body is blocked or disrupted somehow.





This is a partial view which is also a mis-understanding.

[dirtyrat]

This is a partial view which is also a mis-understanding.

well I did say its a place he can "start" his search.

Hendrik, I would love to discuss your ideas regarding chi/qi, but frankly I just can't understand what you're trying to say half the time. ;)

[Hendrik]

well I did say its a place he can "start" his search.

Hendrik, I would love to discuss your ideas regarding chi/qi, but frankly I just can't understand what you're trying to say half the time. ;)


How can one discuss something one dont have a clear experience?



you are travel the path of reason what Caroline Myss present here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo

You cant reason with Qi.

[dirtyrat]

How can one discuss something one dont have a clear experience?
.

then why do you even bother talking with us ignorant folk at all?:confused:

interesting video. i actually gave Yoshiyahu my advice to get him off the path of reason; to get him to start trusting what's inside of him.

[Scott R. Brown]

then why do you even bother talking with us ignorant folk at all?:confused:

Because he would rather pretend he is profound than actually say anything that actuallly has any meaning or real benefit for others. All hendrik does is prowl around the forum speaking non-sense and acting like he knows everything without actually saying anything!

It is kind of like the saying:"It is better to keep silent and have everyone thinking you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" Except in henrik's case all doubt has already been removed!

[Hendrik]

then why do you even bother talking with us ignorant folk at all?:confused:


because there is no ignorance folk but people who was mislead into a wrong direction.

[Scott R. Brown]

See what I mean?:rolleyes:

[dirtyrat]

Because he would rather pretend he is profound than actually say anything that actuallly has any meaning or real benefit for others. All hendrik does is prowl around the forum speaking non-sense and acting like he knows everything without actually saying anything!

It is kind of like the saying:"It is better to keep silent and have everyone thinking you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" Except in henrik's case all doubt has already been removed!

thanks, Scott. though my question was sort of rhethorical....;)

[Hendrik]

Because he would rather pretend he is profound than actually say anything that actuallly has any meaning or real benefit for others. All hendrik does is prowl around the forum speaking non-sense and acting like he knows everything without actually saying anything!

It is kind of like the saying:"It is better to keep silent and have everyone thinking you a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" Except in henrik's case all doubt has already been removed!



Sour grapes isnt it? hahaha

[Hendrik]

From a health standpoint, oriental doctors say that disease happens when the natural flow of qi in the body is blocked or disrupted somehow.

Perhaps you can start the search for your answer there... ;)


seriously,

These type of speculation cant get one into the door of true cultivation.

[dirtyrat]

See what I mean?:rolleyes:

indeed! :D

[Hendrik]

thanks, Scott. though my question was sort of rhethorical....;)



if you are a serious Chigong practitioner you will ask for the path. you didnt so, you are not serious.

[dirtyrat]

if you are a serious Chigong practitioner you will ask for the path. you didnt so, you are not serious.

i choose to trust more with what's inside me. i am very selective with the people i choose to discuss qigong with "seriously".

[dirtyrat]

qigong is very interesting to me, but currently only represents one path to the Truth I am seeking.

[dirtyrat]

because there is no ignorance folk but people who was mislead into a wrong direction.

so how do I know whether or not you're one of those that misleads....?;)

[Hendrik]

so how do I know whether or not you're one of those that misleads....?;)


does what you post works? it doesnt isnt it?

[Hendrik]

i choose to trust more with what's inside me. i am very selective with the people i choose to discuss qigong with "seriously".



Trap number one,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo

[dirtyrat]

does what you post works? it doesnt isnt it?

i get by just fine. recently in fact, my better half was sick and was cough like crazy. in my face even! i never caught anything.... don't mean to brag. ;)

[Hardwork108]

How can one discuss something one dont have a clear experience?



you are travel the path of reason what Caroline Myss present here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo

You cant reason with Qi.
Very interesting video, Thank you.

HW108

[Hendrik]

i get by just fine. recently in fact, my better half was sick and was cough like crazy. in my face even! i never caught anything.... don't mean to brag. ;)



Good for you. however, is it based on your theory of qi flow?

[Hendrik]

Very interesting video, Thank you.

HW108


There is a system behind the real deal.

[dirtyrat]

Good for you. however, is it based on your theory of qi flow?

I prefer the theory of letting the qi flow naturally.

Whether its for martial arts or health, for me, its about being “fearless“.

I’m not afraid of germs.

A brick I am about to break should fear me.

For me that is “qi”. Its an unshakeable belief in myself.

The body follows the mind.

The body stops growing, but your “consciousness/awareness” should continue to grow till the day you die.

And that is what martial arts training is for me. A tool to help me grow. Its my path...