Balls, Middle or Heel?

[hpclub]

Now Ive been training for just under 4 years now and just started to get a little obsessed about when I'm doing the turning/shifting whether I'm doing it on my balls, middle or heel of the foot.

Until recently I've never taken much notice of which part of the foot I shift on but feel it has quite a bearing on your positioning and centre of gravity. For example shifting on the balls of your feet moves you off your centre line more than it would if you shifted just on the heels.

Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web which is quite interesting.

"Turning on the heels maintains the most stable position. The heels are the direct link between the body and the floor; they receive the full weight of the body, unlike other parts of the foot. This makes them the most logical pivot for the body. If one turns on the toes or the center of the foot the whole body will swing off the center axis"

"shifting on the toes or center of the foot throws the body off its primary axis, promoting a loss of balance. Also, if one turns with the toes, they support the body weight and there is nothing left to control balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance"

Now I really donn't know if there is a linage issue or just a case of your own personal body dynamics..shorther legs and feet etc. But I wondered if others are concious of how they are shifting and if they have been trained this way?

Regards

[couch]

Unfortunately, this is a dead issue. While you've been somewhat obsessed with this shifting thing - a lot of people have lost loved ones due to wars waged.

There are lots of arguments for AND against all shifting ideas...and I think that I (mostly) agree with all of them.

I started shifting on the heel, moved to Kidney1/Middle and then back to heel. Shifting is a good thing to practice to understand momentum of force when swung side to side or while throwing a force such as a horizontal elbow.

BUT! I don't get all caught up in all the 'divisions' anymore of shifting, height of my Tan Sau. Because at the end of the day - whatever comes out when I spar is whatever comes out when I spar!

Enjoy your training,
CTK

[Yoshiyahu]

I shift on turn on balls of my feet. I find it gives me more control while shifting especially if I am using my shift to turn my opponents force off or jerk them out of their foundation. But turning on heels present a problem with those who have extreme forward pressure. Its easy to fall backwards or stumble by shifting that way if someone uses forward pressure to uproot you. With the balls of my feet my moves are quicker and more swift. But at first it was not easy. I had to practice many times before I got it right. I have been doing it for years. So When i shift my body automatically adjust and corrections are made instantly. I feel balanced and the transition is smooth.

But I notice this one guy who shifts on heels. He always seems to loose balance or his legs don't seem to be aligned correctly most of the time he shifts.

But I think its just which ever you practice the most will become second nature to you. An eventually you will be able to handle the balance and structure once you gain skill in that form of turning.

[hpclub]

Thanks for the replies I guess the key is like you say what ever you do after practice it will become second nature to comfortable to you. I think uncounciously I was also shifting on the balls of my feet because it felt easier to deal with a strong oncoming force as, in effect, you are shifting more off the cental axis where the force is headed.

Last night I was trying to shift via the heels and felt really wired for me. I think I may give the Kidney1 area a try as a half way house.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for the replies I guess the key is like you say what ever you do after practice it will become second nature to comfortable to you. I think uncounciously I was also shifting on the balls of my feet because it felt easier to deal with a strong oncoming force as, in effect, you are shifting more off the cental axis where the force is headed.

Last night I was trying to shift via the heels and felt really wired for me. I think I may give the Kidney1 area a try as a half way house.

How does your Sifu say to shift?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I turn on my heels when I'm changing a bridged angle. I sidestep/turn or shuffle sideways/turn more on my toes during unbridged moments. This isn't a hard and fast rule, it's just what I've observed in myself so far.

[hpclub]

lol not to sure actually but just checking some vids and it looks like its through the middle..

[hulkout]

I shift on the balls of my feet and frankly, I don't see how you can do it any other way. If you shift on your heels, then your toes have to raise a little bit off the ground. One little push and you're down! If you shift on the balls of your feet, your heels come up a little bit, but then you've got some give in case someone pushes you. I know it varies from school to school, but my sifu has always taught to shift on the balls of your feet while raising your heel just enough to take the brakes off and move. You can move way faster this way and with better balance.

[Lucas]

for me, personally, it depends on the shift/transition. i use the balls for most, but there are instances where ill shift/pivot on my heel. i guess the question may be dependant on exactly what you are talking about.

example:

turn back kick, ball..

roundhouse, ill shift/rotate my lead foot on the heel. but not always....depending on the roundhouse kick

[Pacman]

depends on ur lineage. different lineages do it differently.

[ittokaos]

This is what i was told by my sifu. I have tested it several times and it makes good sense. I suggest that you all test it against a wall bag and make your own decision.

It really depends on what you are using your shifting for that determines the way you do it. If you are using it for wing chun(correctly) then you are using the whole foot but mainly focusing on shifting on the heels. Meaning, you foot is flat on the ground(for the most part) with at least the middle kidney point and the heel on the ground. The toes can lift some what but you don't want to lift the balls as that will disrupt your balance and someone that is quite skilled can knock you back.

The reason you would use the heel is the fact that in wing chun you never just move without attacking. That would be considered wasted movement and that goes against the simultaneous attack/defense as well as economy of movement both of which WC is famous for. Also, moving from the heels throws your weight(power) forward and since WC fights while facing the opponent, this movement from the heel is the most effective.

Shifting on the balls of the foot throws the weight backwards and only works in certain situations but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.

Now make sure that the direction of the toes are changing and that the heel is in the same spot. Otherwise you are not doing it correctly. Technically, all shifting is using the middle of the foot but more for keeping the connection to the ground and not so much for shifting. The ball or the heel is used for the shifting and the middle is touching at all times(for the most part) becuase without the connection the power and balance is lost and the shifting changes from a movement with combative potential to a beautiful spinning movement from ballet(which has it's own combative potential but not in the kung fu way).

I hope this helps. ;D

[Pacman]

...but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.


he is actually talking about turning/spinning

in my style we are on the balls of our feet when we shift/turn

[Yoshiyahu]

I shift on the balls of my feet and frankly, I don't see how you can do it any other way. If you shift on your heels, then your toes have to raise a little bit off the ground. One little push and you're down! If you shift on the balls of your feet, your heels come up a little bit, but then you've got some give in case someone pushes you. I know it varies from school to school, but my sifu has always taught to shift on the balls of your feet while raising your heel just enough to take the brakes off and move. You can move way faster this way and with better balance.

I agree I found the same thing my self. When hitting a heavy bag or wall bag or person with some weight. I found using the heels will unsteady your balance. I tested the heels along time ago. An If the person is rushing in while you are punching they can send your force back to you even though you may hit their body. The force will send you back on your hips to where your balls come off the ground. The thing I like about using the balls is foward spring you get when you step forward and connect with your structure. It makes a nice dispersement of weight and energy in one unit of motion.




he is actually talking about turning/spinning

in my style we are on the balls of our feet when we shift/turn

We do the same thing too...

[couch]

I don't think 'blanket' statements can be made like they were about any type of shifting.

1. It was said that you CAN'T shift on the heels when there's any forward pressure.

2. It was also said that you'd have to raise your toes and that would be bad.

Responses:

1. I take your forward pressure and it goes into my elbow structure, through my hip, into the heel and then the ground. No different than where your pressure goes, except that wherever your weight is (K1, ball)...your weight goes there.

2. Only beginners of the heel shift raise their toes up awkwardly like cutting the back edge of a snowboard. The shift doesn't come from raising up the toes...it comes from the waist and then from the abduction/adduction of my legs. Again...no different than any other shift. Also, I can very well lean right forward while shifting on my heels!

Best,
CTK

[anerlich]

The reason you would use the heel is the fact that in wing chun you never just move without attacking. That would be considered wasted movement and that goes against the simultaneous attack/defense as well as economy of movement both of which WC is famous for. Also, moving from the heels throws your weight(power) forward and since WC fights while facing the opponent, this movement from the heel is the most effective.

Shifting on the balls of the foot throws the weight backwards and only works in certain situations but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.


I can't really agree with this. If you REALLY want to move forward fast and with power, you need to have the calf muscles engaged, not possible when shifting on your heels. You only get pushed back by going on the balls of your feet if your COG is behind them - otherwise, you get driven forward, and much faster.

If moving forward from the heels was the most effective way to drive forward, Hussein Bolt would sprint like that, and quite obviously he doesn't.

An old boxing maxim is "The balls of the feet are the accellerator, the heels the brakes".



I don't think 'blanket' statements can be made like they were about any type of shifting.


What he said.

[sihing]

Good responses Kenton, I agree :)

For me pivoting and the drills associated with it are strictly a training thing, not too be used as it is in training during application. What are we training when pivoting? Bacially we are learning how to connect to the ground, have a solid base, and to keep our centerlines or center axis steady (not swaying side to side). The biggest difference between Wing Chun and other striking methods is that for us we are a "connected" method of striking. This means for the most part when we strike or defend, there is going to be a physical connection between my body and my opponents. We don't strike over/around an object but rather thru it, and to acheive success with this you'd better learn how to have a connected base and structure so that your ability to handle rebound forces and energy is strong. Our elbows are down because this is a more stable structure to absorb energy into our own structure, plus it allows us to gather power from the ground and our legs into our strikes and upper body.

Now regarding the heel/ball/K1 thing, with the heel pivoting there is little to no swaying side to side of our own center axis or spine. When you sway side to side your traveling in the wrong direction, sideways, not forward. For beginners the pivoting movement is large, as one gets used to it and they learn to use the ground power, everything gets smaller and tighter. Eventually you need very little pivots to provide great power to your upper body, for striking, pushing, turning your opponent or accepting their forces upon your own structure. A good drill is to stand neutral with a partner facing you the same way, form a x arm guard with one another connecting at each others wrists, your partner will slowly exert a strike towards your centerline, what you want to do is a slight wu sau action, accepting his force upon your centerline with a feeling that it is going to push you over, at this moment you pivot in the right direction (if your right arm is forward, you would pivot to face right, feet pointing right). The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

I agree with Kenton, the pivot is from the hip and knee's as well, not from the feet turning side to side.

James

P.S. We pivot FROM the heel, not ON the heel, as the latter would imply our weight is back, when it's not.

[hpclub]

[QUOTE=sihing;967769]

The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.



Thanks for this but how would this fit in with the principle of not using force against foce. I accept it is still diverting a strike but playing devils advocate if you shifted on the balls would this not present less strength being used and a greater angle to then work with?

[couch]

Now regarding the heel/ball/K1 thing, with the heel pivoting there is little to no swaying side to side of our own center axis or spine. When you sway side to side your traveling in the wrong direction, sideways, not forward. ... If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

...

P.S. We pivot FROM the heel, not ON the heel, as the latter would imply our weight is back, when it's not.

Hey James, et al,

After a few years doing heel shifting, a year of K1 and then back to heel, I just want to comment on the whole 'swaying' thing. Clearly: It's a selling point for heel shifting.

When you shift on K1...you sink, too.

The way I look at it, is that heel shifting is more suited to a more 'erect' body structure. It also makes things more mobile and 'lighter' on the feet.

When my Sifu and I engage in Chi Sau, I can't move him. He shifts on K1 and really gets low into his stance. He throws me away with his lower centre of gravity, etc. We've discussed things and he knows his mobility is sacrificed for this, but he enjoys the new power K1 has given him through his research.

So that is why I said we can't make blanket statements about other shifting methods.

Because:
1. Others think that heel shifting 'puts you on your heals' and you can't develop/yield to any forward pressure. Us heel shifters know they're wrong.

2. Others think that ball shifting makes you sway and that you move out of the way of the force instead of yielding to it as you described. Those ball shifters know what they're doing. They're sinking and compensating no different than how us heel shifters are by 'leaning forward' or rather: NOT putting all of our weight on our heels.

You can see where I'm going with this. K1 is no different. Talking to an 'old' Moy Yat practitioner and he tells me they were taught to shift the whole foot - so...the centre...or...K1 if you will...but was never officially taught K1 or anything...just to shift the whole foot...and then...somewhere along the way...us lineage folk are doing heel shifting.

Andrew's quote about the boxing maxim makes so much sense after studying the whole "side-back-step-with-Jum-WSL-approach." You step back, put your heel into the ground like a pike (the brake) and start firing punches off the Jum!

Best,
CTK

[sihing]

[QUOTE=sihing;967769]

The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.



Thanks for this but how would this fit in with the principle of not using force against foce. I accept it is still diverting a strike but playing devils advocate if you shifted on the balls would this not present less strength being used and a greater angle to then work with?


I think they should rephrase that saying, and replace the word force with strength. Force against force is always present in combat. If someone exerts force on your arm, do you always have to run away from it? If so, does that follow the priniciple of using efficiency to deal with something? Instead of running away from force, it is possible to accept that force, channelling it thru your body to absorb, dissolve or redirect it. To me that is more efficient than stepping, avoiding it. I've done a method of WC that did that, and although it has it's place (everything does), I concentrate now on what I described above. This does not mean that I "can't" step as well, but that happens on it's own, and not thru thought. I might have to retreat, but within my retreat is an attacking going forward mindset and body feel.

There is always strength present when you fight, there's no way around it. The thing is you can't match strength for strength with guys larger than you, if you do your abilities are limited to those that are weaker than you. What I like about WC is that it teaches you the full potential of total body unity and total body strength. If you are just using your arm, shoulder muscles and I am using my leg muscles, who has the advantage? The training makes a person stronger than they normally would be, due to good body mechanics and structure, combined with their natural muscular strength.

Good angle is present as well with the drill I described, it's gained from making the other guy miss instead of moving yourself. All good WC provides useage of angles in their training and application.

James

[sihing]

Hey James, et al,

After a few years doing heel shifting, a year of K1 and then back to heel, I just want to comment on the whole 'swaying' thing. Clearly: It's a selling point for heel shifting.

When you shift on K1...you sink, too.

The way I look at it, is that heel shifting is more suited to a more 'erect' body structure. It also makes things more mobile and 'lighter' on the feet.

When my Sifu and I engage in Chi Sau, I can't move him. He shifts on K1 and really gets low into his stance. He throws me away with his lower centre of gravity, etc. We've discussed things and he knows his mobility is sacrificed for this, but he enjoys the new power K1 has given him through his research.

So that is why I said we can't make blanket statements about other shifting methods.

Because:
1. Others think that heel shifting 'puts you on your heals' and you can't develop/yield to any forward pressure. Us heel shifters know they're wrong.

2. Others think that ball shifting makes you sway and that you move out of the way of the force instead of yielding to it as you described. Those ball shifters know what they're doing. They're sinking and compensating no different than how us heel shifters are by 'leaning forward' or rather: NOT putting all of our weight on our heels.

You can see where I'm going with this. K1 is no different. Talking to an 'old' Moy Yat practitioner and he tells me they were taught to shift the whole foot - so...the centre...or...K1 if you will...but was never officially taught K1 or anything...just to shift the whole foot...and then...somewhere along the way...us lineage folk are doing heel shifting.

Andrew's quote about the boxing maxim makes so much sense after studying the whole "side-back-step-with-Jum-WSL-approach." You step back, put your heel into the ground like a pike (the brake) and start firing punches off the Jum!

Best,
CTK

Hi Kenton,

It's all semantics really in the end. One can not be so anal as to stick to one principle or idea, and not appreciate anothers method. Heel/Ball or K1 pivoting, all has it's place and IMO is just a basic training method of the system, it depends on what you want to do with it, and what you want to get out of the training method. For me, now at this moment I recommend pivoting from the heel, that can change in the future, who know's. There are no pronouncements that it is the "best" method and all other ways suck. It is good to have the ability to not have to move when force is exerted on you, as well as having the ability to move as well. With your Sifu, he's probably bigger than you and with more experience he can accept your force without having to move, he is doing what is natural for that situation which is exactly what WC teaches us, it may change when dealing with other people.

For me it's all training to gain a skill or attribute, whether or not I will ever use it is another thing, I first have to get into a fight and that hasn't happened for a long long time:) I know one thing for sure, the last thing on my mind will be Heel/Ball or K1 pivoting, lol.


James

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hung Fa works on basic principals when turning. In a forward stance you should have the majority of weight on the rear leg. This allows for use of the lead foot to kick and gives you a solid platform. As you turn, you need to shift the majority of weight onto the new rear leg, so the way I do this is to force the ball down to support the rear leg weight and pivet on the lead heal, using the rear foot to force the turn. I also use body shift. As I complete the turn, the majority of my weight shifts to the heel of the rear foot again.
Shifting and turning are quite different. If you go up on the balls of both feet, you are shifting. You lift the weight of the body up on the ball and shift the heels, which also makes the entire body shift from one spot to another as well as changing directions. Turning on the heels will keep the body in one place, but change the direction it is facing. Both can be done with pretty much the same speed if practiced, so I suppose it don't matter much. The basic principals might not be as evident though. I really don't think one can efficiently turn or shift on the middle part of the foot.

LCP

[k gledhill]

the foot is a tripod...heel / ball/ out side edge....we move the foot heel toe small steps / shuffles to allow the heel to drive into the gtound to shift the lead foot, not drag it.
Simple physics, whatever you drive into the ground is coming back out :D if you have good timing alignment, do drills to strike incoming bodies at the precise angles etc...:rolleyes: you can develop a good ko striking ability...the trick to hitting an incoming object is not to be rooted on the back foot but balanced between both with force generated from the = & opposite force idea Newton came up with...

shifting is done on the heels to maintain a constant axis line..like a revolving door , it spins freely as long as its axis is centered...we shift this revolving door on 'tracks' to allow us to turn and face as the exchanges happen, fluidly, balanced in motion ...

small steps allow the heel to drive the quadriceps into the ground in an unbroken line of force , that can be channeled into the opponent, via a trapped elbow, strikes, jammed lan sao, elbows...etc...the connection is from alignment of the hips , knees...back up.

The alignment of the stance in counter striking is done during the basic seung ma - toi ma drills...the guy doing the counter striking jum sao as he angles off the tans line of entry , stops briefly in the 1/2 step stage to check feet, knees, hips , capable of reaching with two hands ...continue to finish the test of the drill.

we adopt circle stepping to allow subtle balance shifts without committing our line of force to straight lines easily countered...small shifting steps with angling and movement to maintain the assault pressure/momentum.

Chum Kil teaches to turn on your axis line [ revolving door] as the sagittal plane [centerline] is turned only to face the direction of your attack and the position of the recipient of the attack, with tactical directions .iow 'Facing' . to face w ehave to have short steps with shifts and turns along our axis /centerlines to have quick ability to strike while facing and have the rear heel driving into the gound at the precise moment...timing is critical...the inch punch is used to prove this 'moment' . I adopt it to prove the strikes ability to deliver force...I ask the student to shift me 5-6 ft back from the contact point...many start with elbows out , so the energy goes sliding off my chest...then they try to do it again and balance is bad becasue they have to much weigh on the back foot so they knock themselves backwards...then with coaching to focus the points, stance, heel , elbows ...it works ..add motion and attack angling in the chi-sao entry and counter angling drills and you begin to see simple it isnt, so we repeat the action 1000's of times randomly from either side from either partner and others...

Not developing feeling, but striking with force in the 'moment' is it good or not :D it can be amusing to ask someone to give you their best shot no blocking and they still cant move you ... AND stop me from hitting them because their elbow positions are worthless...

the heel is the contact point for force but we can heel/toe to move...small steps 3" x 3"x 3" etc...allow the heel to be driven into the gound while delivering the 'force' out of the hand in a continuous 'pressure hose' along our cotact point. We can deliver a force with no gaps making it impossile for the recipient to regain their balance or counter us once they are turned or lose balance. Controlling people like this is hard and takes time.
I have used it in bar 'events' on numerous occasions that required a controlling force rather than a damaging fist...witnesses ;) a bar full of witnesses !!!! :D

try to focus you mind on the point of contact as you trap guys , not the feet...if you imagine a constant pressure point at your hand and their arm then move the feet to maintain it you can channel the 'unseen' great force of the quads into the guy on the receiving end.....

[ChinaBoxer]

think of it like squatting heavy weight, you can't squat if your back is curved or if you are on your toes. you must keep the weight on the heels and drive the "pelvis" forward" while you "jack up" your opponent or else how can you handle his weight? this same principle applies to shifting.

[hpclub]

think of it like squatting heavy weight, you can't squat if your back is curved or if you are on your toes. you must keep the weight on the heels and drive the "pelvis" forward" while you "jack up" your opponent or else how can you handle his weight? this same principle applies to shifting.

Of course this is relevant to lift a weight on a vertical plane - not sure how it relates to an oncoming pressure.

[punchdrunk]

regardless of lineage... I'd say both methods have their purposes and proper times. To be quick and light on your feet you have to keep your weight on the balls of your feet, to dig in and push from the ground up you have to keep your weight on your heels. I say let function dictate your footwork more than lineage or argumentative theories.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never really paid that much attention at all, over the years it just started to fit properly.

[k gledhill]

you can move lightly on all points of the foot , nobody says you have to drive the heel into the ground for no reason...like a certain guy who wrote a VT book and showed shuffling several feet one direction before turning and shuffling another direction LMFAO if it wasnt the funniest sequence of b&w photos...like being attacked by a geriatric in a parambulator... HAH ...stand still Im coming after you ..shuffle shuffle :D:D:D:D shuffle.


we can move as we like to have mobility and ability to shift back and forth, etc...just stay balanced and let the training kick in.

[Vajramusti]

A not uncommon problem : confusion arises from not distinguishing between development and application.

In development some drills are for internalizing key wing chun concepts- once done- in application you respond to the moment. IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

Just win baby!

[sihing]

Just win baby!

Hard to do when your body doesn't know how.

JR

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hard to do when your body doesn't know how.

JR

After four years, the OP's body "knows how," but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.

[sihing]

After four years, the OP's body "knows how," but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.

I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100's if not 1000's of miles apart from one another? Isn't application a personal one on one thing?

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100's if not 1000's of miles apart from one another? Isn't application a personal one on one thing?

James

I see application as a finite set of possibilities. Just as for boxing, there is a slugger, boxer, volume punchers, hybrid fighters and so on, so too do they exist in WCK or other striking arts. I feel like most people fit into 1 of X number of categories. Each categories comes with a different structure and a structure it is vulnerable to. Structure as Hendrick has pointed out prescribes particular techniques. Being as water to me means recognizing these situations and adapting structure accordingly.
Obviously no two fighters are exactly alike (usually), but these categories have seemed to emerged over time. This is the heart of situational fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So if some one says, Sifu do I pivot on the balls, flat, or heel, I say it depends on the structure that you chose. Are you flat-footed weight on the heel, flat-footed weight on whole foot, or on the balls of your feet? i.e. what is economical given the structure?

[anerlich]

Of course this is relevant to lift a weight on a vertical plane - not sure how it relates to an oncoming pressure.

I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can't do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.

[sihing]

I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can't do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.

The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn't really apply here. If I want to jump, I will squat down, plant from my heel, push up with my legs, and add on to at the end with a push from my calf muscles (simple explaination) which raises my heel off the ground, this is a different goal than using the heel concept in WC. We are talking vegetables here, you guys are talking fruits.

When I plant to recieve force, I will do so by planting it on the heel, doing so with a raised heel will mean your structure is unstable since the calf muscles will not be able to handle someone's force coming into all by itself. To start the process of giving force out, I push from the heel (this stablilizes my structure, without doing that where does the force come from, am I optimizing it?) and can add to it by pushing off the ball of the foot as well, this is application stuff. In training, when learning it you do the basics, learn to plant the foot solidly, to be able to apply the structure in a rudimentary way. In application I can add to it all by lifting at the ball of the foot if I want to, as I am not so concerned with doing it perfect, text book like, but rather to get out of it all that I can. Also when the goal is to hit someone, it is a shorter movement, quicker as well, than pushing something that is heavy. When I practice poi pai, then I have to sit more and can use the heel first for rooting and raised heel for pushing someone out of their position. Pushing and Pulling are helping actions to set up favorable positions as needed.

James

[SAAMAG]

Now Ive been training for just under 4 years now and just started to get a little obsessed about when I'm doing the turning/shifting whether I'm doing it on my balls, middle or heel of the foot.

Until recently I've never taken much notice of which part of the foot I shift on but feel it has quite a bearing on your positioning and centre of gravity. For example shifting on the balls of your feet moves you off your centre line more than it would if you shifted just on the heels.

Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web which is quite interesting.

"Turning on the heels maintains the most stable position. The heels are the direct link between the body and the floor; they receive the full weight of the body, unlike other parts of the foot. This makes them the most logical pivot for the body. If one turns on the toes or the center of the foot the whole body will swing off the center axis"

"shifting on the toes or center of the foot throws the body off its primary axis, promoting a loss of balance. Also, if one turns with the toes, they support the body weight and there is nothing left to control balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance"

Now I really donn't know if there is a linage issue or just a case of your own personal body dynamics..shorther legs and feet etc. But I wondered if others are concious of how they are shifting and if they have been trained this way?

Regards

I didn't read the entire thread, just this first post, but fwiw I first learned to shift on the heel of the foot...later when I looked at other lineages I learned about using the middle of the foot.

To be honest, I'm thinking that no individual method is "correct" per say. It was taught one way or the other long ago, and as time passed....different students of the original method preferred and developed their own ideologies on shifting as well as everything else wing chun people argue about.

When its all said and done, don't worry too much about it. Try it another way if you want, but stick with what works for you.

[anerlich]

The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn't really apply here.

You must have missed the part where I said neither the squat (as brought up by Chinaboxer) nor jump squat was a good example, so thanks for backing me up on that one.

[Phil Redmond]

The bottom line is the one standing after a fight is right. :D

[k gledhill]

unless the guy on the ground is playing possum ;) [cue the flute music !...]
" a dying man always has one action left " :D

[hpclub]

Dear all

A few weeks ago I made the original post about this issue and I thank you all for your responses. I have been practising alternating how I turn and feel alot more comfotable and balanced in my turning.

As I mentioned I used to unconciously turn on my balls (of my feet rather than genetalia) and uite often during the forms found my self off balance. Turning FROM my heels I am far more comfortable and feel there is a lot more power generated.

Once comment from Sihing really got me thinking. By shifting on my balls creating an angle and in a sense moving away and around my opponant I wasn't actually effecting their structure. By shifting oin your heels you are actually turning them more and thereby affecting there structure while maintaining yours.

Again thank you all....good night god bless.

[k gledhill]

you only turn to face an angle on the opponent, not to stand before them like chi-sao and turn chasing arms with blocking arms....etc...pivoting like a statue.

turn to face their motion...

the axis line /spine is like the center of a revolving door, shifting on anything but the heels will shift the revolving doors axis ...you can shift the axis with shuffle stepping 3"x3"x3...etc...allowing the angles to be achieved ,but not losing your control of the axis line ...this is done in chum kil.

the same applies for tilting the doorpanels iow , leaning forwards, sideways...the doors wont turn as they should...keep upright, balanced in movement...

SLT + CK the fighting 'bubble'

[couch]

Once comment from Sihing really got me thinking. By shifting on my balls creating an angle and in a sense moving away and around my opponant I wasn't actually effecting their structure. By shifting oin your heels you are actually turning them more and thereby affecting there structure while maintaining yours.

This was good stuff he wrote. But always remember that you are a human being and have compensating mechanisms (leaning, sinking the knees) to compensate and make it work.

Either way:
"Learn the principle, abide by the principle, dissolve the principle." - Bruce Lee