Wong Long's Staff Hand

[Tainan Mantis]

The hand technique called, "staff hand(gun sho)", is in Lo Guang Yu's basic exercises, "Springy legs in 14 roads(14 Lu Tan Tuei)" the 9th exercise.
If you didn't learn that you can also see it in ,"White Ape Steals the Peach" movements #3 & #4 using a front stance and horse stance respectively.

This ,"gun"-rhymes with ,"win"-is not to be confused with another technique of a similar sound which is translated as "roll."

In the "8 Rigid " techniques (the ones that come right before the "12 flexible" techniques) the 7th one is called,"Left Right Double Staff."

What is the dif between these 2 techniques?

[Tainan Mantis]

In reference to the previous question.
Has anyone ever learned or practiced the "8 rigid" techniques?
I'm talking about the 8 core attacking techniques that make up the Mantis style.

[WenJin]

From my understanding the 8 hard ways are concepts. Sometimes individual movements may be a way of potraying the concept, though thats what they are "concepts of motion". Same goes for all the other theories like soft ways, character principles and the 8 doors as examples.
Therefore the difference is not in the technique but the reasoning and approach.
To understand "Zuo You Shuang Guan" consider the range of motion of the principle and then assess the movement you are identify a difference and think whether it follows the concept and then though the movements may differ the concept shall remain.

Thus in the movements of the First Routine of Bai Yue Tou Toe.
you are referring (which are actually #5 & 6)
(5) "You Deng Shan Zuo Feng Tong " - R Front Stance Left Sealing interconnection (Grapple).
(6) "Chi Ma Shi You Bu Chui" - horse Riding Stance right supplementary punch.

Now are they really similar to those shown to you depicting the hard ways ?

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm referring to moves 3 & 4 in Wang Han Hsun's book White Ape Steals the Peach. Most 7 Star Mantis people learn this form early on but not all school's teach Lo Guang Yu's 14 Lu Tan Tuei.
There is a book of the same name with each of the 14 exercises clearly pictured and explained.
#9 is called Staff Hand. According to this exercise the technique staff hand is 2 punches; an uppercut and heartpunch done by the same hand.
If staff hand is a concept then what other techniques fit this concept.
eg:
1.Uppercut & heart punch
2.heart punch & uppercut
3.uppercut only
4.right straight punch & left uppercut
5.Or what?

[mantis108]

I am not a 7 Stars pratitioner, but I have a keen interest in the style. Well all PM styles for that matter. I notice that with almost each set of White Ape series there is a Mantis counter part. White Ape Steals the peach seem to have Mantis Steals the peach (MSP) as a counter part? I believe it is perhaps the most favorite set of GM LKY. If we take the combination in this set apart we can definitely see a few of the combinations are in the 14 Roads. Staff hand, Black Tiger Steals heart, Golden Rooter Choke throat, etc. I believe there are elements of the Bun Da Bei Moon (ascending order) is in the MSP also. Would it be possible that the 14 Roads and other drills are GM LKY's signature set spilled over? A lot of the combinations in this form seems to be counters to awkard angles and recovers from off beat timing. Would the Steals Peach is sweet because it "steals" the "covered" angles and "lost" timing? Just some thoughts. BTW, I know the 2 set aren't the same. There are a lot more sneaky knee/low kicks to groin and eye poking in the White Ape one. Sorry, I may be off the topic a bit, but I am really curious about this. Thanks

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

To my knowledge, the 14 Roads of 7*PM was a creation of GM LGY while he was an instructor at the Shanghai Jing Mo. The movements taught in 14 Roads were extracted from the forms as a basic introduction to the Mantis techniques and usually taught right after Jing Mo students completed their required basic training (i.e. the first 10 sets) if they chose to specialize in his PM.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis: This is what I heard also. He, Lo Guang Yu, created the entire set in 1 evening(14 Lu).
This is written in the book "14 Lu..." at the back. My teacher got angry when he read this and tore out the page before we could copy the book.(He was given the book by a WHF student)
By the way if you have that book could you scan and send that page?

mantis 108:
I will tailor my staff hand question to your style according to the manuscripts I have.
12 key words has HOOK & ENTER(Diao jin).
Jin or enter is defined as being 1 of 14 "enter" techniques. The very first one is STAFF HAND.
The 8 rigid are written dif in this style also. Using only 8 characters as opposed to 7 Star's 32.
In Taiji Mantis STAFF HAND is the 8th rigid technique.
The 12 flexible are also written dif with some dif names too. But STAFF HAND is the 11th.
From this info we can see that STAFF HAND is a crucial technique to understand. But who can say more?
This info comes from Tse Wing Ming's Beng bu book. But for some reason this particular section is not translated into English.
After providing the following info can you or your friends say anything about STAFF HAND?
I tried to go to that Delphi page where the TJM folks hang out but found it too dif to navigate.

[mantis108]

Hi YoungMantis,

Thanks for the info, my friend. Please see my reply there as well.

Dear Tainan Mantis,

You've got mail. :)

Thank you for visiting and I have put a little orientation there hoping to ease the pain of navigating. I really appreciate the support.

As for the Staff Hand, I will have to read the Bung Bo book first (I recently acquired a copy courtesy of a friend.)

My impression of what you are saying is that the Staff Hand is similar to a double punch with the lead side hand at 45 degree angle (deflect/intercept) and the rear hand as a straight punches (cross/attack)? That move can mostly be executed in either a forward (Dung Shan Ma) or a Kneeling Stance (Yup Weng in 7* term)? It is hard to describe online. If that is the move, this move would in general be an inner gate entry that leads to a takedown (inner gate or outer gate depending on the counter) in TCPM. It could be either hard, soft or just as an entry. So, IMHO, it is quite versatile.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Oso]

ttt

ok, I'll stop for now. :D

[monkeyfoot]

Question - What movement are we talking about.

I thought that routine 9 was 'filing punch - skim off - drill - break - door shuttering kick' or something like that.

Am I getting my numbers mixed up?

craig

[Oso]

I've got the same question.

Sifu Cottrell's contribution to the Mantis Symposium was a nice drill he called 'gun shou' but I think his was the 'rolling' version Tainan Mantis differentiates in the first post.

also, just so you're aware, this is a 4 year old thread. 'Tainan Mantis' is now 'K.Brazier' so hopefully he'll pick up on this and contribute more.

[yu shan]

O/T I`m bringing you video of what I shot at the MQ. Some good stuff of you and Neil.;) Also got Cottrell doing this gun shou. I was very impressed with Steve Cottrell`s contribution that day, what do you think?

[Oso]

I like it.

I've been trying to get my students to utilize it in sparring...not the whole routine but the one overhand stick/roll/punch.



oh, you mean when Neil was beating the crap out of me? Yea, I want to see that and figure out wtf I wasn't getting.