"Shovel" Concept

[ChinaBoxer]

In my years of wing chun experience, this “shovel” concept IMO is one of the most important. Hawkins Cheung puts alot of emphasis on this concept, so i thought i would share it with everyone. hopefully you get something from the video, peace!

video here (http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/30/shovel-concept/)

[imperialtaichi]

Thank you Chinaboxer for the well explained video. Well done.

Same reason why TaiChi'ers practice with 4m long spears with a 1kg spear head. It is not for the purpose of building biceps, but to learn how to manipulate the heavy spear with ease, with structure.

However, this is not the only way to generate power. Boxers have very scientific methods and their "heel lift" punches are based on very power body mechanics.

The other way is the "Wet Towel" strikes used by a lot of internal arts where the body is completely fluid and "heavy" utilizing the entire body "dead weight" into the target.

Then there is also the Systema "Ballistic" type of strikes of which it is not fun on the receiving end.

Even in WC, the BJD utilized the "heavy chop" types of power generating method with and without the shoveling, so BJD is not just for learning how to used knives, but power training as well.

And the foot techniques... the Tiger Tail Kick and the Gwai Ma.... and the spirals, ginger fists, elbow strikes, Bui Ji etc.... and the lists goes on....

There are so many way to skin a cat. But I do agree the "Shovel" method you explained is definitely a good fundamental one.

Cheers,
John

[HumbleWCGuy]

1. I don't think that you can equate deadlifting stance/structure to a fighting structure. The deadlift is designed to give you maximum pull in a specific direction...up. Fighting structures are designed to give you mobility forward and back and other directions besides up.

2. I think that we can all agree that structure is a fluid concept. If we are rigid with our structure we are dead. You can't take one structure and run it up a flag pole like there is nothing else out there.

Rather than say this is the structure and lets not do anything else, why don't you start with the assumption that the boxer's stance it good, the WCK stance is good, and all the gradations in between are good and figure out how they might apply situationally?

I am going to revisit a post that I made concerning the WCK structure.


In reference to the content as I understand it...
Simple answer... I think that the WCK structure is more flexible than people will admit. However, there is a structure because in WCK isn't an anything goes style.


I see higher levels of WCK as being a person who understands the tendencies and breaks the rules judiciously. In that sense, I believe that there is no structure.


A practical example.
Early on, I learned that I had to adapt. When I first started sparring my kung fu brother and I would meet in the center of the floor and essentially get into a chi sao battle. We learned quickly that we needed to stop, "playing Wing Chun," if we intended to do any serious damage to each other.

Later, I learned that when I was faced with a rigid Wing Chun structure that I could show someone who hadn't made the leap away from rigidity that I wanted to, "play Wing Chun," only to switch and devastate them.

Now I know that I am not seeing your whole curriculum in one video, but when I see videos that sort of down grade other successful striking structures, I feel like I am watching a video on how to "play Wing Chun" rather than win fights.

Also, when I see videos like this it reminds of what my instructor used to tell me. People from poor styles train one way and fight another. Why? After 3 or 4 powerful blows in a fair match a person from a bad style realizes that there structure does not hold up so they do anything they can to win. I am not saying that the structure that you are showing is as bad as all that, but I am saying that it is far more situational than some might care to admit. I am sorry but adhering to that structure will put you in a bad way as will adhering to strict boxing structure.

[sihing]

1. I don't think that you can equate deadlifting stance/structure to a fighting structure. The deadlift is designed to give you maximum pull in a specific direction...up. Fighting structures are designed to give you mobility forward and back and other directions besides up.

2. I think that we can all agree that structure is a fluid concept. If we are rigid with our structure we are dead. You can't take one structure and run it up a flag pole like there is nothing else out there.

Rather than say this is the structure and lets not do anything else, why don't you start with the assumption that the boxer's stance it good, the WCK stance is good, and all the gradations in between are good and figure out how they might apply situationally?

I am going to revisit a post that I made concerning the WCK structure.



Now I know that I am not seeing your whole curriculum in one video, but when I see videos that sort of down grade other successful striking structures, I feel like I am watching a video on how to "play Wing Chun" rather than win fights.

Also, when I see videos like this it reminds of what my instructor used to tell me. People from poor styles train one way and fight another. Why? After 3 or 4 powerful blows in a fair match a person from a bad style realizes that there structure does not hold up so they do anything they can to win. I am not saying that the structure that you are showing is as bad as all that, but I am saying that it is far more situational than some might care to admit. I am sorry but adhering to that structure will put you in a bad way as will adhering to strict boxing structure.


Dude, I'm not trying to answer for Jin, but for me his video's are all about TRAINING, not application. When you are training (as a fellow teacher I've learned this) you have to isolate things, over and over again so that the student can learn what it is the drill or art is trying to teach them. Wing Chun has allot of this, especially when in contact. Also, since WC is a closer range system, boxing mechanics and structure doesn't apply, boxers hit and get out, they don't aim to control while they are hitting. Controlling while hitting requires a different structure and mechanic, watch all of Jin's vids and you will see this. There are no "fighiting" structures, this is static thinking. There are only training structures, which include mobility forward/back, but also allow you to absorb/give force & energy, an important attribute when in close.

Another thing is the idea of this method is better than that method. I don't believe in that type of thinking, nor do I believe Jin is saying any of that in his vid's. The fact is if you are learning different methods of striking simultaneously, unless you are really talented and have all day to train, you will sacrifice skills in all areas because your body will not know what to do. I have a student that is learning WC from me but also is taking karate as well, that is his choice but I can see the conflict on a daily basis. He's trained in karate longer than the WC but because of the duel training there is a conflict happening in his mechanics that impeeds his application of what WC is trying to teach. As an example, he constantly closes off his stance when he is following his opponent in while punching, in essence losing his facing. Most karate, as far as I know, doesn't have facing concepts, this is a problem as it doesn't allow him to use what WC is offering as effectively.

I agree with you that structure is fluid and never fixed, but to get to that point you have to learn it in a fixed way, so that it is natural for you to perform, once that has happened then you relax it, letting it happen naturally for you when you need it. Wong Shun Leung said, "Never be a slave to the system, you are the Master of it, not the other way around", this is a great saying to remember and has taught me that Wing Chun is all about training, not about application, and that hopefully thru hard work and perserverence one's training in WC will help them when they need it the most.

James

P.S. I totally see the signifigance of deadlift training & squat training to one's Wing Chun skills. The movements are not the exact same, but the benifits you can gain from both excersises will transfer to your Wing Chun skills absolutely. People think the pole training in Wing Chun is to learn how to fight with the pole, little do they realize that is not the actual purpose behind that aspect of the WC cirriculum, if you can't realize that within the 1st min of Jin's "shovel" vid then no one can help you.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Dude, I'm not trying to answer for Jin, but for me his video's are all about TRAINING, not application. When you are training (as a fellow teacher I've learned this) you have to isolate things, over and over again so that the student can learn what it is the drill or art is trying to teach them. Wing Chun has allot of this, especially when in contact. Also, since WC is a closer range system, boxing mechanics and structure doesn't apply, boxers hit and get out, they don't aim to control while they are hitting. Controlling while hitting requires a different structure and mechanic, watch all of Jin's vids and you will see this. There are no "fighiting" structures, this is static thinking. There are only training structures, which include mobility forward/back, but also allow you to absorb/give force & energy, an important attribute when in close.

Another thing is the idea of this method is better than that method. I don't believe in that type of thinking, nor do I believe Jin is saying any of that in his vid's. The fact is if you are learning different methods of striking simultaneously, unless you are really talented and have all day to train, you will sacrifice skills in all areas because your body will not know what to do. I have a student that is learning WC from me but also is taking karate as well, that is his choice but I can see the conflict on a daily basis. He's trained in karate longer than the WC but because of the duel training there is a conflict happening in his mechanics that impeeds his application of what WC is trying to teach. As an example, he constantly closes off his stance when he is following his opponent in while punching, in essence losing his facing. Most karate, as far as I know, doesn't have facing concepts, this is a problem as it doesn't allow him to use what WC is offering as effectively.

I agree with you that structure is fluid and never fixed, but to get to that point you have to learn it in a fixed way, so that it is natural for you to perform, once that has happened then you relax it, letting it happen naturally for you when you need it. Wong Shun Leung said, "Never be a slave to the system, you are the Master of it, not the other way around", this is a great saying to remember and has taught me that Wing Chun is all about training, not about application, and that hopefully thru hard work and perserverence one's training in WC will help them when they need it the most.

James

P.S. I totally see the signifigance of deadlift training & squat training to one's Wing Chun skills. The movements are not the exact same, but the benifits you can gain from both excersises will transfer to your Wing Chun skills absolutely. People think the pole training in Wing Chun is to learn how to fight with the pole, little do they realize that is not the actual purpose behind that aspect of the WC cirriculum, if you can't realize that within the 1st min of Jin's "shovel" vid then no one can help you.
I would say that if you couldn't look at that video and have some concerns that no one could help you.

[sihing]

I would say that if you couldn't look at that video and have some concerns that no one could help you.

Oh yeah, well my Dad's bigger than your Dad:p:p:p:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Oh yeah, well my Dad's bigger than your Dad:p:p:p:D
I am sorry but jutting the hips forward is just dead as a basic structure. Situationally it works, but it will just get you beaten up if it is your bread and butter.

I understand what you are saying about this probably just representing a snapshot of the overall structural training. Also, Jin mentions boxing and mischarictarizes its structure instead of explaining a proper boxing stance and its strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, it is hard to accept that he buys into the use of many structures.

Second, I think that you are mischarictarizing WCK to suggest that it is an art that moves in and stays in as WCK is not sophisticated enough on the inside to do so. WCK fighters are not equipped to deal with Muay Thai clinching, wrestling, or Judo. Just like boxing WCK only stays inside as long as the advantage won in bridging can be maintained.

These mischaritarizations are what leads to playing Wing Chun.

[sihing]

I am sorry but jutting the hips forward is just dead as a basic structure. Situationally it works, but it will just get you beaten up if it is your bread and butter.

I understand what you are saying about this probably just representing a snapshot of the overall structural training. However, Jin mentions boxing and mischarictarizes its structure instead of explaining a proper boxing stance and its strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, it is hard to accept that he buys into the use of many structures.

Second, I think that you are mischarictarizing WCK to suggest that it is an art that moves in and stays in as WCK is not sophisticated enough on the inside to do so. WCK fighters are not equipped to deal with Muay Thai clinching, wrestling, or Judo. Just like boxing WCK only stays inside as long as the advantage won in bridging can be maintained.

These mischaritarizations are what leads to playing Wing Chun.

That's a pretty confident statement to make that WC cannot handle MT clinching or wrestling/judo. I guess you know of all the experiences of all the WC practitioners in the world, lol. My experience, which is limited says otherwise. This is the thing with internet forums, your experience is not mine, so there are no absolutes, and the thing is NO ONE is stating absolutes, but to me that is what people here on the forum seem to see over and over again.

I would recommend that you go visit Jin first before you proclaim to know what he "buys" into or not. I fell into this trap before and learned my lesson.

Good luck to you:)

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's a pretty confident statement to make that WC cannot handle MT clinching or wrestling/judo. I guess you know of all the experiences of all the WC practitioners in the world, lol. My experience, which is limited says otherwise. This is the thing with internet forums, your experience is not mine, so there are no absolutes, and the thing is NO ONE is stating absolutes, but to me that is what people here on the forum seem to see over and over again.

I would recommend that you go visit Jin first before you proclaim to know what he "buys" into or not. I fell into this trap before and learned my lesson.

Good luck to you:)

James

It goes without saying that there are no absolutes. But, a pure WCK fighter would have a low probability of defeating the aforementioned fighters on the inside, equal matching assumed of course. I think that my school is up to snuff. I am sure that other ones are as well. I would say more often than not WCK schools in Europe are lagging behind.

[sihing]

It goes without saying that there are no absolutes. But, a pure WCK fighter would have a low probability of defeating the aforementioned fighters on the inside, equal matching assumed of course. I think that my school is up to snuff. I am sure that other ones are as well. I would say more often than not WCK schools in Europe are lagging behind.

I'm not really concerned with matching up my "Wing Chun" with a wrestler or MT guys or whomever stylist, since I don't see WC as a applicaton thing nor as a thing I would want to compare it too. We see Wing Chun as two different things I think. I'm more concerned with realistice self defence, what are the chances that I am going to meet a quality wrestler or MT guy that is in their right mind on the street? For comps it is a different beast which requires different training methodolgy, vegetables and fruits again...

For me there are no "Pure" WC fighters, since WC is just a training system, training systems can't fight, people do.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun is principle based as opposed to technique based so the term "pure" is misleading.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wing Chun is principle based as opposed to technique based so the term "pure" is misleading.


Pure in this context is the commonly practiced WCK without supplementation from other styles. I see your reluctance to use the term pure WCK; in fact, I am sure we share many of the same concerns on the subject.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm not really concerned with matching up my "Wing Chun" with a wrestler or MT guys or whomever stylist, since I don't see WC as a applicaton thing nor as a thing I would want to compare it too. We see Wing Chun as two different things I think. I'm more concerned with realistice self defence, what are the chances that I am going to meet a quality wrestler or MT guy that is in their right mind on the street? For comps it is a different beast which requires different training methodolgy, vegetables and fruits again...

For me there are no "Pure" WC fighters, since WC is just a training system, training systems can't fight, people do.

James

I 100% agree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, I'm not trying to answer for Jin, but for me his video's are all about TRAINING, not application. When you are training (as a fellow teacher I've learned this) you have to isolate things, over and over again so that the student can learn what it is the drill or art is trying to teach them. Wing Chun has allot of this, especially when in contact. Also, since WC is a closer range system, boxing mechanics and structure doesn't apply, boxers hit and get out, they don't aim to control while they are hitting. Controlling while hitting requires a different structure and mechanic, watch all of Jin's vids and you will see this. There are no "fighiting" structures, this is static thinking. There are only training structures, which include mobility forward/back, but also allow you to absorb/give force & energy, an important attribute when in close.

Another thing is the idea of this method is better than that method. I don't believe in that type of thinking, nor do I believe Jin is saying any of that in his vid's. The fact is if you are learning different methods of striking simultaneously, unless you are really talented and have all day to train, you will sacrifice skills in all areas because your body will not know what to do. I have a student that is learning WC from me but also is taking karate as well, that is his choice but I can see the conflict on a daily basis. He's trained in karate longer than the WC but because of the duel training there is a conflict happening in his mechanics that impeeds his application of what WC is trying to teach. As an example, he constantly closes off his stance when he is following his opponent in while punching, in essence losing his facing. Most karate, as far as I know, doesn't have facing concepts, this is a problem as it doesn't allow him to use what WC is offering as effectively.

I agree with you that structure is fluid and never fixed, but to get to that point you have to learn it in a fixed way, so that it is natural for you to perform, once that has happened then you relax it, letting it happen naturally for you when you need it. Wong Shun Leung said, "Never be a slave to the system, you are the Master of it, not the other way around", this is a great saying to remember and has taught me that Wing Chun is all about training, not about application, and that hopefully thru hard work and perserverence one's training in WC will help them when they need it the most.

James

P.S. I totally see the signifigance of deadlift training & squat training to one's Wing Chun skills. The movements are not the exact same, but the benifits you can gain from both excersises will transfer to your Wing Chun skills absolutely. People think the pole training in Wing Chun is to learn how to fight with the pole, little do they realize that is not the actual purpose behind that aspect of the WC cirriculum, if you can't realize that within the 1st min of Jin's "shovel" vid then no one can help you.

Well said James.
For our structure to be "free" it most first be "rooted".
DL is an everyday movement, much like squatting.
Indeed, is one was to train SOLEY as a functional strength trainer you would be doing:
Squats, DL, chins, curls, dips and overhead presses.
All strength exercises that deal with everyday and even performance movements.

[couch]

Pure in this context is the commonly practiced WCK without supplementation from other styles. I see your reluctance to use the term pure WCK; in fact, I am sure we share many of the same concerns on the subject.

This is an old hat, but - it has NOTHING to do with pure WCK. It has EVERYTHING to do with the way people train.

From The Hierarchy of Training by Jamie Clubb http://www.martialedge.net/articles/instructors-and-teaching/the-hierarchy-of-training/

Something I agree with here:
"Oddly enough the solution for someone who felt his stamina was letting him down in sparring was not to simply do more sparring or, if this was not possible, do more work on the punch/kick bag or shadow sparring, but to go for a run.

Yet, it is in this belief that martial artists seem to be pretty much alone. No other physical activity devotes so little time to actually training the specific activity. Swimmers swim, tennis players play tennis, yogis practice yoga and climbers climb. Even writers are advised to write every day. Whereas martial artists… well, they stretch, they run, they lift weights and sometimes they practice martial arts, if time permit of course."

...and that pretty much sums up a lot of TMA training. :)

So, I don't think you can say that Pure WCK will get it's butt kicked here and there by this and that. It just doesn't work that way.

Best,
CTK

[goju]

oh god the mt clinch again lol
look based on the principle of wing chun or even any other bridging hands trapping style isnt that the last thing you should do is leave your hands out there when your trying to grab their neck or body?

im not saying the mt clinch sucks or automatically a chunner or fighter who is good at bridging hands can dismantle a clinch attempt but its not rocket science to get out of it even the mt counters for an mt clinch are the simplest things

[HumbleWCGuy]

oh god the mt clinch again lol
look based on the principle of wing chun or even any other bridging hands trapping style isnt that the last thing you should do is leave your hands out there when your trying to grab their neck or body?

im not saying the mt clinch sucks or automatically a chunner or fighter who is good at bridging hands can dismantle a clinch attempt but its not rocket science to get out of it even the mt counters for an mt clinch are the simplest things

Simple if you know all the clinching position counters, throw counters, entries , and mistakes to avoid. There is more to it than pummeling and grabbing behind the neck. That is just basic. Obviously it depends on the school, but some schools have sophisticated enough clinching to be treated like it a second art. San Shu clinching is probably a notch up still because of the better throwing.

Also, a WCer needs to drill them regularly, and that is the tough part when the focus is in other areas.

[HumbleWCGuy]

When did application get separated from training? Train like you fight... Fight like you train... Right?

[sihing]

When did application get separated from training? Train like you fight... Fight like you train... Right?

Yes and No IMO. If you train like you fight, then the there would be no difference between the two, no distinction. You would just get a fight club going in your town and vola, there is your weekly session. The thing that should be the same in training and fighting (I distingish btwn the two) is the mental focus, intention and always keeping in mind the end goal, you safe and him incapcitated. The differences are wide and varied, but to keep it simple, in training you are isolating things, lessening the intensity so that the process of understanding and absorbtion of what you are training in is possible. There is more of a thought process involved and testing of what works for you and what doesn't when training/learning. Even the top guys in MMA have a coach/trainer by their side to give them some feedback as to what they are doing right and wrong. This process is non existent when you are fighting, as your intent is not to learn or train something, but to apply what you have learned and trained.

So for me there is a difference btwn the two. You can learn from your own experience for sure, but it is faster to learn from someone else's experience than strictly relying on your own, as they can short cut your progress. Eventually you have to experience it for yourself and use your art in your own way, but to gain specific skill sets you need a coach or trainer/Sifu.

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes and No IMO. If you train like you fight, then the there would be no difference between the two, no distinction. You would just get a fight club going in your town and vola, there is your weekly session. The thing that should be the same in training and fighting (I distingish btwn the two) is the mental focus, intention and always keeping in mind the end goal, you safe and him incapcitated. The differences are wide and varied, but to keep it simple, in training you are isolating things, lessening the intensity so that the process of understanding and absorbtion of what you are training in is possible. There is more of a thought process involved and testing of what works for you and what doesn't when training/learning. Even the top guys in MMA have a coach/trainer by their side to give them some feedback as to what they are doing right and wrong. This process is non existent when you are fighting, as your intent is not to learn or train something, but to apply what you have learned and trained.

So for me there is a difference btwn the two. You can learn from your own experience for sure, but it is faster to learn from someone else's experience than strictly relying on your own, as they can short cut your progress. Eventually you have to experience it for yourself and use your art in your own way, but to gain specific skill sets you need a coach or trainer/Sifu.

James

I could be misunderstanding you, but that statement seems to be backing way off of what you have said previously. Have you changed your mind? When I said that Jin's misunderstandings about boxing and kickboxing make his explanation of the classical WC stance dubious (especially concerning its relationship to over-riding fighting strategy), you suggest that it is fine that Jin's video has questionable relationship to a greater context as it is "just training."

I submit that if you don't know what something is for then how can you train it properly? You seemed to have suggested that this is unimportant.

Edit: Without correct context, it is like Daniel waxing on and waxing off, but not understanding that he is doing martial arts. I am not saying that Jin's explanation is as bad as all that, but when he provides context for the techniques, it is not correct.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I was talking to a friend of mine who has also watched many of Chinaboxers's videos. They are best watched without sound. That way, one isn't distracted by how the techniques are put into the questionable to incorrect context, when weightlifting and boxing are referenced.


Without sound, I only see a couple of problems which are 1 or 2 questionable techniques out many. The questionable techniques being his takedown defense and his video on punching where he executes a forward shuffle and pulls himself forward with his font leg rather than push off of his rear leg.

Edit: In general I think that his classical WC is fine when I watch it. It looks good. I just question the the contextual explanations, reasoning, and his representations of other arts.

[Wong Fai]

Hello,

I enjoyed the video/ instruction of WC mechanics and its relation to powerlifting. I also think the powerlifting connection demonstrates that WC initially creates its power from simple body mechanics (yes, structure).
But I would add that you saying the heel is never up in WC or (Chinese Boxing) is not correct. I encourage you to do your straight punches while alternating heel up for each foot, with alternating heel's grounding as each punch is released. Start with the back heel grounding for the rear hand punch and the front heel grounding for the leading hand punch. Then alternate.
After playing around with this you will find your footwork is much more alive and your punches have more potential energy as you are now bouncing your energy off the ground (accelerating it) yet being grounded (for that instant) as each strike is delivered.
Give it a try...the results will surprise you.
Do however, learn and try to master the basic footwork/stance structures of WC before making this jump. If you don't then you will not benefit but simply be dancing around with a heel up.

Have fun,

WF

[Yoshiyahu]

Hello,

I enjoyed the video/ instruction of WC mechanics and its relation to powerlifting. I also think the powerlifting connection demonstrates that WC initially creates its power from simple body mechanics (yes, structure).
But I would add that you saying the heel is never up in WC or (Chinese Boxing) is not correct. I encourage you to do your straight punches while alternating heel up for each foot, with alternating heel's grounding as each punch is released. Start with the back heel grounding for the rear hand punch and the front heel grounding for the leading hand punch. Then alternate.
After playing around with this you will find your footwork is much more alive and your punches have more potential energy as you are now bouncing your energy off the ground (accelerating it) yet being grounded (for that instant) as each strike is delivered.
Give it a try...the results will surprise you.
Do however, learn and try to master the basic footwork/stance structures of WC before making this jump. If you don't then you will not benefit but simply be dancing around with a heel up.

Have fun,

WF

Your Heels are not up. More weight is found on balls. If your heels are up you will lack balance and be vunerable for a pull. If your toes are up you will lack balance and will be able to uprooted easily. The key is having the right substantial and insubstainal. In other words one part of the foot is full and the other is empty. Just like one leg is full and the other empty. Your entire leg is not off the ground just lighter. So it is with your heel. When you shift your heel lightly slides across the floor, ground,mat, carpet, dirt, etc.