Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

[Tainan Mantis]

For those interested in Shaolin staff I have included some translations from Cheng Zengyou's 1624 book Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

For the most part about "the barbarian surrendering Maneuver" first mentioned by General Qi (1528-1588) and published in his New Book on Effective Training Methods (1562). He describes the technique:


The applications are mysterious and limitless. From ancient times to the present other weapons have rarely matched its power. None of the other maneuvers can compare to it.

The Barbarian Surrendering Maneuver (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/barbarian.htm)

[Sal Canzonieri]

For those interested in Shaolin staff I have included some translations from Cheng Zengyou's 1624 book Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

For the most part about "the barbarian surrendering Maneuver" first mentioned by General Qi (1528-1588) and published in his New Book on Effective Training Methods (1562). He describes the technique:


The applications are mysterious and limitless. From ancient times to the present other weapons have rarely matched its power. None of the other maneuvers can compare to it.

The Barbarian Surrendering Maneuver (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/barbarian.htm)

Great article!

[richard sloan]

I love this part Mantis:

An awe-inspiring well arranged display of military force with hundreds or thousands of soldiers in a platoon moving forward makes it impossible for the brave to rush to the front or the cowardly to hide in the rear. As the enemy troops arrange their spears or swords to attack us and we return the attack all the soldiers move together as a single unit. The platoon shape is so dense and tightly packed that even a minor movement of the hand is difficult. How can it be allowed to have everybody jump and move left and right?

At this point it would only take one person to turn back and everyone would feel doubt. It would only take one person to turn around and retreat one small step and everyone would lose their confidence.

I think in general a lot of people have mistaken ideas about the 'martial' part and all that entails, in the training and pursuit of these systems, and much time and angst and panty wringing is placed on 'effectiveness' and 'what works', citing to all kinds of things which are not strictly relative.

[RenDaHai]

This is a thread to talk specifically about the famous 1621 treatise on Shaolin staff method written by Cheng Zong You

少林棍法闡宗

'A disclosure of the Shaolin sect staff method'

[RenDaHai]

First off then;

This is an interesting passage, it was written in 1621 and mentions Shaolin boxing practice. I have transcribed the characters so that if you do not trust in my translation (as presented below) you may come up with your own. Note that there is buddhist specific terminology used which may confuse you if you are not familiar with it. The first is 菩提, that is 'Bodhi' or enlightenment. The hope is that fist practice will ascend to the height of 彼岸 'Paramita' which is akin to perfection. 夜叉 or Yaksha is also used, it is a buddhist spirit which can be a benevolent nature fairy, or it can be a wicked ghost.


或問曰, 棍尚少林, 今寺僧多攻拳而不攻棍, 何也

It was asked: Shaolin staff is so famous, yet the monks of today practice the fist more than the staff, Why is this?

余曰, 少林棍名夜叉, 乃緊那羅王之聖傳, 至今稱為無上菩提矣, 而拳猶未盛行海內, 今專攻於拳者, 欲使與棍同登彼岸也

I answered: The shaolin staff is named the 'Spirit', it is the sacred transmission of King Luo, and until this day is considered supremely enlightened. But the fist art is not so popular throughout the land, so today the shaolin specialise in the fist with the desire that it will reach perfection like the staff.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Doesn't it also say in a different answer to a question, that Shaolin has their beloved Taizu Chang Quan? I remember see that.

[RenDaHai]

Doesn't it also say in a different answer to a question, that Shaolin has their beloved Taizu Chang Quan? I remember see that.

I think so. I have not read through all of it yet but I have seen Taizu chang quan mentioned in several places, it also mentions MianZhang Duanda. It also compares various staff stances to their analogue fist techniques.

Various Martial Arts mentioned are 'YangJia Qiang, SunJia YinShouGun, Taizu ChangQuan, MianZhang DuanDa, Shaolin YeCha Gun'. All of these names exist as Shaolin forms today, With Taizu Changquan and YinShou Gun as two of the most popular even 400 years later.

[Tainan Mantis]

The chapter on questions on answers, where empty hand is mentioned, is chiefly on weapons. The chapter finishes with a brief mention of empty hands.

....鐵拳則有太祖溫家之類。短打則有綿張。任家之類。皆因獨步神奇。....
Iron Fist has both Taizu and Wen Family. Short Strikes has Mian Zhang.

Something very interesting to note about this is that Short Strikes is placed in the sentence opposed to the words Iron Fist.
Iron Fist is this...., and Short Strikes is this....,

Does anyone use the term Iron Fist?
The term has been in use in Shandong to represent a form of Longfist.
Anywhere else?

[Tainan Mantis]

余曰, 少林棍名夜叉,

I answered: The shaolin staff is named the 'Spirit',


夜叉 Yecha was a character in dramatic theatre during the Ming.

[Stickgrappler]

Hello RenDaHai et al:

*bows deeply*

Xie xie! Very cool! look forward to more from you on this.

Very truly yours in the MA,

~sg

[pazman]

Various Martial Arts mentioned are 'YangJia Qiang, SunJia YinShouGun, Taizu ChangQuan, MianZhang DuanDa, Shaolin YeCha Gun'. All of these names exist as Shaolin forms today, With Taizu Changquan and YinShou Gun as two of the most popular even 400 years later.

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think so. I have not read through all of it yet but I have seen Taizu chang quan mentioned in several places, it also mentions MianZhang Duanda. It also compares various staff stances to their analogue fist techniques.

Various Martial Arts mentioned are 'YangJia Qiang, SunJia YinShouGun, Taizu ChangQuan, MianZhang DuanDa, Shaolin YeCha Gun'. All of these names exist as Shaolin forms today, With Taizu Changquan and YinShou Gun as two of the most popular even 400 years later.

Main Zhang Duanda, Cotton Palm Close Strikes, still exists as a style in China.
I have seen some of the routines.

But other books from the 1600s about Shaolin martial arts all mention a Yue Jia (Yue Fei Family, meaning his army) Duan Da.
Yue Duan Da is one of the most important Shaolin martial arts of ancient times, it influenced not only Shaolin close range fighting (chin na and takedowns) but many other martial arts too (Liuhe Quan, Ba Fan Shou via Wen family martial arts, Tang Lang, Xing Yi Quan, Eagle Claw, and others too).

[Sal Canzonieri]

The chapter on questions on answers, where empty hand is mentioned, is chiefly on weapons. The chapter finishes with a brief mention of empty hands.

....鐵拳則有太祖溫家之類。短打則有綿張。任家之類。皆因獨步神奇。....
Iron Fist has both Taizu and Wen Family. Short Strikes has Mian Zhang.
(Here it is likely a typographical error, and the meaning can be Soft Palms or Continuous Palms)
No matter what the style, they all have their unique characteristics.

Something very interesting to note about this is that Short Strikes is placed in the sentence opposed to the words Iron Fist.
Iron Fist is this...., and Short Strikes is this....,

Does anyone use the term Iron Fist?
The term has been in use in Shandong to represent a form of Longfist.
Anywhere else?

Main here is generally considered to mean Soft, Cotton.

Wen Family martial arts are now known as Chuo Jiao and Ba Fan Shou. Military and Scholarly Wen Family martial arts.
I think they are from Shandong. They preserved most of what Shaolin was like during the 1500s.

So, Iron Fist could be a term from Shaondong, many martial artists from Shandong visted Shaolin during the 1500s to 1600s.

[Sal Canzonieri]

夜叉 Yecha was a character in dramatic theatre during the Ming.

Yecha is like a vampire, forked teeth.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

Yang Family were famous, men and women, for their spear play. They were always in the military. Yang Family spear play consists of routines that are based on the length of the spear. So there is the Pear/Plum Blossum spear and the Eight Mother Spear, both two routines within Yang Family Spear. Shaolin still does this "Plum Blossum Spear", of what's left of it.

BUT, Liuhe Spear is meant to be thought of as "SIX Combination" Spear, BECAUSE the methods combine the best ideas of 6 different martial arts masters, Yang being one of them. So Yang Spear is not Liuhe spear.

By the way, Liuhe Spear was considered the most amazingly great spear play to master and it is what Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike) used in combination with Shaolin Xing Quan (Shape Boxing - Rooster, Hawk, Monkey, etc) to create what is now Xing Yi Quan. Its was an internal martial art, this spear because you had to practice whole body movement and qigong to master it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Yecha is like a vampire, forked teeth.

A recording of the martial arts of China Mid 16th century is called Jiang Nan Jing Luo. It gives some details that are missing from Shaolin's own book on the subject.
Shaolin's Yecha Staff is specifically named after the "Sea Patrolling Yecha." A detail not obvious from Shaolin's own book on the subject.

The techniques are divided into the Greater and Lesser Sea Patrolling Yecha.
These technques include using the staff as a staff as well as sword and for using counter spear.

The Yang Family spear was alternately named Liu He Qiang-Six Harmony Spear, as well as other names no longer in popular use. This was documented in the Mid-Ming.

[RenDaHai]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

Well probably not the same forms no, but the same name has persisted and probably a lot of the technique.

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

As to training he mentions competition.

He is also asked a question saying that 'The form does not seem a practical method of training' and he answers it is to gain good control over the staff, a steady grip and fluidity and ease of movement.

Interestingly he also says that a lot of the techniques cannot be used in battle since in formation many of the transformations cannot be used. If we refine to just battle technique there are really only a few.

[RenDaHai]

Shaolin's Yecha Staff is specifically named after the "Sea Patrolling Yecha." A detail not obvious from Shaolin's own book on the subject.


That is interesting. No, he doesn't mention that in this book. The YeCha is specifically buddhist terminology for a type of 'fairy/spirit/nymph/demon' type creature associated with nature, forrest or rivers or mountains etc which are usually benevolent. However on occasion they can also be malevolent.

I assume the name is to infer the magical element of the staff. I think the name YeCha is related to the name FengMo (crazy demon/crazy magic), also a common shaolin staff name. Interestingly the name 'FengMo YeCha Gun' is also common suggesting a shared heritage.

[RenDaHai]

Main Zhang Duanda, Cotton Palm Close Strikes, still exists as a style in China.
I have seen some of the routines.

But other books from the 1600s about Shaolin martial arts all mention a Yue Jia (Yue Fei Family, meaning his army) Duan Da.


Mianzhang is still used as a name in Shaolin forms, though it is rare.

YueJiaQuan has many very different types around Henan, I have encountered it before. There is a specifically YueJia XinYi Quan which uses Songshan form characteristics in a village near ZhengZhou. I have yet to visit this place.

[RenDaHai]

On the spear,

Clearly at the time in Shaolin they practiced the spear a lot, since many of the staff techniques are designed specifically to defeat the spear.

Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used. As such in formation fighting I suspect there is very little difference between the major spear styles. Only a few of the major techniques will be useful.

Cheng also wrote a book on Yang family Spear. He mentions techniques of BaQiangMu, and LiuHeFa.

[bawang]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?
they are not the same forms. the manual describes the forms.


I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.
six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.


More importantly...how were these arts trained back then?
attacking poles, sparring with soft sticks, sparring with cotton pointed spears

[RenDaHai]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

[bawang]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

[Tainan Mantis]

six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.


Before WW2 at Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan Six Harmony Staff was taught.
It is a collection of two person forms strung together into a long sequence.
Most students learned only the solo sequence. But, Master Wu Shaolin (not the shaolin temple) brought the two person sequence to Taiwan and taught a few people. Shi Zhengzhong and Yang Fengshi, my shifu and uncle are the only two I know of.

Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student

Six Harmony Staff Vs Staff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd6gHTOrImQ)

The techniques combine sword and spear with staff though it is all trained with staff.

Then, the sequences are broken down into short parts for partner practice.

[RenDaHai]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. It is going to take me a while to match these techniques up with the modern versions and names since, as I say, the manual is not extremely clear. But I think a lot of it will be represented, certainly some techniques are immediately familiar.

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

[Tainan Mantis]

Cheng mentions that during battle formation many of the changes cannot be used.

Yes, general Qi Jiguang of that same era says the same:


An awe-inspiring well arranged display of military force with hundreds or thousands of soldiers in a platoon moving forward makes it impossible for the brave to rush to the front or the cowardly to hide in the rear. As the enemy troops arrange their spears or swords to attack us and we return the attack all the soldiers move together as a single unit. The platoon shape is so dense and tightly packed that even a minor movement of the hand is difficult. How can it be allowed to have everybody jump and move left and right?

At this point it would only take one person to turn back and everyone would feel doubt. It would only take one person to turn around and retreat one small step and everyone would lose their confidence.

But small groups are not constrained by the rules of large battle formations.

[RenDaHai]

Here is the two person sequence performed by me and a student

Six Harmony Staff Vs Staff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd6gHTOrImQ)


****, wish I could access that.

In the book on the spear written by the same author (ChengZongYou) he lists LiuHeFa as six two man drills, each which contains a different pair of concepts with the spear.

[Tainan Mantis]

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV7demp8_c)

[Tainan Mantis]

****, wish I could access that.

There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?

[RenDaHai]

There is a program to access youtube from China.
Do you need help?

Thanks, but I use a Mac and the program doesn't work and VPN is too slow here in Dengfeng to be worth it.

[bawang]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV7demp8_c)

yin hand just means overhand grip.

[RenDaHai]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV7demp8_c)

I see, its quite difficult to compare huh? Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.

I think the staff used these days is shorter and used less spear like than of that time, and now QiMeiGun is the most prevalent.

[bawang]

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

its the same passage. whats ur point?

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier.

because you do not have any education in science and arts, and you speak Chinese on the level of a child.

the only discussion you can have is
-the book is very cool
-I know this book, I am also very cool
-the book mentions some kung fu styles, that is very cool

[Sal Canzonieri]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

Who care about 'modern shaolin'. Whatever is practiced at modern shaolin is just what was done for them to do exhibitions. That's modern shaolin.

BUT the actual traditional Shaolin Quan is being done all around the countryside and that traditional Shaolin is still alive in the small villages all over Henan. And that stuff makes an appearance through various teachers at the modern Shaolin temple, its still learnable.

[Sal Canzonieri]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.

[RenDaHai]

@Bawang,

Level of a Child huh? Thats actually true. There are children who have been born since I have been here and yet speak much better Chinese than me. Never the less my translation of said passage was a lot better than yours. It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex

This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.

Lets make this more about the manual, less about our personal disagreements.


@ All

For example, let me highlight something; Actually in the majority of the manual he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff. Yang grip is the same grip just with the wrist rotated so that the palm is up putting pressure upwards and outside on the staff. This small wrist movement is the essential feature of stopping a thrust to the heart. The difference is just twisting the staff in your hands while keeping a solid grip. The full change to overhand grip is also present but it is something that is confusing me with terminology used. It is also referred to as shortening the staff, which makes sense.

[bawang]

Who care about 'modern shaolin'.

you are modern shaolin

[bawang]

It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex
it clearly says boxing is a new thing in shaolin. even your own awkward translation.


This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.

you will never allow anything in the ancient manuals that are contradictory to what you have paid for at dengfeng to change your views about kung fu.




For example, let me help you; Actually in the majority he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff.

that's called an overhand grip

[RenDaHai]

that's called an overhand grip

If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.

The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.

If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.

[bawang]

If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.

The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip.

palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.

once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.

[RenDaHai]

palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.

once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.

Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn't separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.

For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.

[bawang]

Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn't separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.

For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.

the "correct structure" is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.

which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.

[RenDaHai]

the "correct structure" is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.

which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.

You have shown your inexperience BaWang.

In weapons sparring structure is EVERYTHING.

Form is too fast to notice these small features. However in sparring with a spear this small wrist rotation and structure is the difference between parrying and being hit. The strength of the structure is what stops you getting hit.

Correct minute structure makes ALL the difference with long weapons and bladed weapons alike.

Trivial matters like grip??? In Spear technique grip and wrist rotation is perhaps the most important feature.

[bawang]

lol "flick of the wrist"
lol "strength of structure"

do u even manual

[Tainan Mantis]

yin hand just means overhand grip.

Yes, I know what that means.
Actually, I base the relationship on analysis of the description of technques of yin shou gun in the book.

[Tainan Mantis]

Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.

Great, I would love to see what you find.

[Tainan Mantis]

There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.

I have a large collection of books from this era. Could you refresh my memory on which Ming era books talk about Shaolin fist methods?

[Tainan Mantis]

There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.

Any clues?

This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou's work

[RenDaHai]

No, I have often wondered that, I assumed it was a part of old mythology. The technique ErLangDanShan appears in all the weapons and fists and is usually compared to 'Dan Bian' and is almost always a both arms straight out in line posture.

Interestingly, the modern version of this technique (in SongShan) the staff is almost immediately caught by the free hand and the staff is carried across the shoulders by both hands and performs a rotation before being unleashed. Appears in many forms.

[bawang]

There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.

Any clues?

This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou's work

there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.

[Sima Rong]

there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.

So no arrows in that particular story then. This throwing mountains story seems very interesting. I thought Houyi was responsible. But then, there are numerous creation myths. So many cultures and religions. :)

[GeneChing]

Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!


I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?
The forms described in the manual don't really map on to the modern forms very well. I'm speaking mostly about yinshougun (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48637), not so much about the others as I haven't really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that's a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn't they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn't someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form? :p

[bawang]

Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!


The forms described in the manual don't really map on to the modern forms very well. I'm speaking mostly about yinshougun (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48637), not so much about the others as I haven't really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that's a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn't they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn't someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form? :p

because it would have no backflips.

[GeneChing]

However, you could add a backflip into any form. Compositionally, a backflip could fit anywhere. :rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.
I wasn't sure if you are joking on this one.

I am looking for the source of the story of Er Lang carrying mountains on his shouldering pole.

[rett]

The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.

If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.

This kind of stuff is really helpful, thanks. Can you elaborate (if it's possible in this word-based format) on how this rotation changes your structure and helps parry a thrust to the heart? I do understand if you want to mainly keep to discussing the manual.

[RenDaHai]

This kind of stuff is really helpful, thanks. Can you elaborate (if it's possible in this word-based format) on how this rotation changes your structure and helps parry a thrust to the heart? I do understand if you want to mainly keep to discussing the manual.

I'll try....

The weapon is long. A small movement of the hands (positioned at the base and midway) will create a large movement of the tip. When you flick the wrist between the yin and yang position the end of the staff does not simply rotate but instead draws an arc. The size of the arc depends on the movement of the rear hand. If you do not turn over the wrists the staff will not draw a powerful arc it will simply move weakly.

When thrusted a spear is long and has no lateral strength or structure. So it becomes weightless and even a small push can send it flying away. The arc can deflect the spear in this way. In the classic technique LanNaQiang, you can press his spear down from above, but to do this your palm must be facing down. If your palm is facing up you would have to 'pull' down to knock his spear down, this is not so controlled or powerful.

When you make contact with the opponents spear sometimes they will stick together and there will be pressure between them, small rotations of the wrist here make a huge difference to how much pressure you can apply as the spear will circle and the direction of force will change. If the opponent feels the structure is weak he can thrust straight in even the though the spears are in contact. You will feel this easily if you cross sticks with someone.

[bawang]

The weapon is long. A small movement of the hands (positioned at the base and midway) will create a large movement of the tip. When you flick the wrist between the yin and yang position the end of the staff does not simply rotate but instead draws an arc. The size of the arc depends on the movement of the rear hand. If you do not turn over the wrists the staff will not draw a powerful arc it will simply move weakly.

nobody flicks their wrist except wushu rubber bendy spears. the longer the spear, the greater the strength you must use.



yang family spear is a very rough and coarse spear style, there are no fine movements. it uses large brute force movements, it was designed for simple men. the spear shaft is very thick and unbendable. yang family spear is strong enough to attach a bamboo firearm. the average yang family spear is 14 feet long.

[RenDaHai]

the average yang family spear is 14 feet long.

Indeed, but we are interested in the use of the Shaolin Staff which is no more than 8 feet.

I am assuming for most of the techniques we will be discussing that we are using a staff fighting against a short spear in a small group or one to one. One on one I am sure the short light spear is a better weapon.

[rett]

Thanks, RDH, that was really clear.

One last question on this if I may. Would you agree that in executing the arc-shaped parry as described you not only rotate the wrist of the forward hand, but also typically extend the arm a bit (from having a somewhat bent elbow to a straighter elbow)? And that a good part of the strength of the resulting structure is related to the new elbow angle?

That's how I'm working with it now, and it feels right. But it's happened many times before that something felt right but turned out to be anything but.

A lot of this is in the parts of the qimeigun I've learned, but I hadn't been given these explanations. Great thread idea.

[bawang]

I am assuming for most of the techniques we will be discussing that we are using a staff fighting against a short spear in a small group or one to one. One on one I am sure the short light spear is a better weapon.

I think ur confused. shaolin staff is a short spear.
<9 feet= staff
>9 feet= spear

[Sal Canzonieri]

Bawang is right about the spear lengths. and that its not really a flick of the wrist, as much as a rotation of the tendon/ligaments which reguires strength, both external and internal. The Yang spear was total battlefield movements where there is no time to waste, so its concepts were simple and its movements were brutal. The Yang family women were known to perfect it too.
Later the 6 Harmony spear masters started to explore applying internal ideas from qigong/neigong to spear play. But either way they had to really understand and have the physical ability to rotate the spear while someone is trying to kill you.

Saying a "flick" implies something different than a parry does.

[GeneChing]

...y'all read Dining Table Kung Fu and Yang Family Spear by me and Gigi in our July/August 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1096), yes?

:cool:

[bawang]

The Yang family women were known to perfect it too.


your Chinese google skills aren't good enough

[RenDaHai]

I think ur confused. shaolin staff is a short spear.
<9 feet= staff
>9 feet= spear

Well, this is a reasonable observation though at least nowadays the standard staff method is not the same as the short spear, the 'Shaolin' staff referred to in the text is. For one it has a small blade in the tip and a pommel on the base, but reading into the technique some of it is closer to modern Shaolins short spear forms than it is to staff forms. These days having gone through the old spear sets there is actually a lot of similarity to some of the forms presented in the book.

Reading the text itself Cheng says that Shaolins staff is 7/10th's spear methods and 3/10th's Staff methods because a thrust is much more powerful than a strike. Though this implies a clear division between what is staff method (striking) and what is spear method (thrusting).

[bawang]

Well, this is a reasonable observation though at least nowadays the standard staff method is not the same as the short spear, the 'Shaolin' staff referred to in the text is. For one it has a small blade in the tip and a pommel on the base, but reading into the technique some of it is closer to modern Shaolins short spear forms than it is to staff forms. These days having gone through the old spear sets there is actually a lot of similarity to some of the forms presented in the book.


because shaolin staff is so long its unwieldy for sword techniques. sword techniques were used for a powerful first strike, such as mountain crush egg, then switch to spear technique for prolonged fighting.

at 8 feet long the staff has leverage to penetrate armor and crush through blocks. because the momentum brings the staff to the ground, the fastest way to recover is to switch to spear stance.

[Sima Rong]

I only know a little, but heres my 5 cents.
That lan na qiang technique seems like it would very effective in formation against spears, whether it is spear vs spear or staff vs spear. Very tight. many of the staff techniques in the yinshougun i have learned, especially towards the end of the form, can be trained in a straight line, even close to a wall for practice.

[rett]

Can someone recommend an online text of this treatise?

[Kellen Bassette]

Can someone recommend an online text of this treatise?

Also, has there been a proper English translation yet?