favor

[Thomas316]

hello hello everyone. i need a small favor. im interested in seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment. can anybody help? thanks.

[David Jamieson]

i think it's pretty safe to say that most martial arts have little if anything to do with zen at all.

you'd have to find evidence to the contrary if anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Outside of some possible MODERN exceptions, all TMA, be them chinese, Japanese, korean or whatnot, were created for combat.
Any "spirituality" was added later.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Please don't do that. If the truth gets out, at least half the members of this board will be involved in a group seppuku, and I will have no one to flame the hell out of.:p

[lkfmdc]

how about the two dozen or so military mannuals we still have copies of that show martial arts, talk about how to use them to kill and make NO MENTION of buddhism, spirituallity etc?

yeah, but if we do that a few of the forum are sure to committ suicide

[SPJ]

kara te or tang shou or china hand.

it has nothing to do with chan or zen.

unfortunately, meditative meanings are incorporated in modern times.

do the way

ju do: gentle way

a ki do: harmony way

kara te do: way of empty hand

---

they are to cultivate some characters or spiritual persuits in addition to fighting

[SPJ]

if you strip the way away

then

you have the original techniques

ju jitsu

a ki jitsu

kara te jitsu

so take your pick.

so you have wu shu (bu jitsu) and not wu dao (bu do).

[SPJ]

Budo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQU_tnLE92U


ju jitsu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3pT56tMPQ0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmTni0AM-Uo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83iWBsELJFw&feature=related

ju do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=admqVs8vbqM&feature=related

[SanHeChuan]

hello hello everyone. i need a small favor. im interested in seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment. can anybody help? thanks.

You initial claim that most (if any) martial arts were created for the purpose of practicing a religion is erroneous. Where did you come to this position in the first place, it is not a conclusion anyone with more that cursory information of the martial arts would commonly colligate. Against whom do you need to prove you point? Hippies or Zealots?

Though there were many traditions of warrior monks from Buddhism, Zen, and Taoism. Many were similar to that of crusaders or Teutonic knights in that they were faithful but not ordained members of the Church/Temple, having not taken vows, but more like laymen “employed” by the Church. They were temple guards as in the case of Shaolin or the instruments of political feuds like the Sohei of Japan.

Shaolin monks are said to have taken up the martial arts to keep themselves healthy enough to complete their long chants, or to defend themselves from bandits, or more likely just introduced into the temple by monks and laymen who had previously learned the martial arts, but either way they got their martial arts from secular sources. The majority of Shaolin monks have always been non-martial monks, and it is not required for shaolin monks to practice martial arts.

Taoist monks or the Japanese Yamabushi could be said to have practiced their martial arts as a part of their religious practice, as the practice of the martial arts was suppose to lead to supernatural powers. Though, I don’t know that you would call it an act of worship.

I am unaware of any Martial arts being practiced by monks on Okinawa. Martial arts in Okinawa were “supposed” to be exclusive to the Pechin, or warrior class of Okinawa.

However all martial arts originated from folk wrestling and hunting methods which became combat arts designed for the battlefield and then latter modified and adapted for self-defense and other purposes. The Majority of Martial arts even those once practiced in the temples have little connection to any religion beyond a historical affiliation. Most martial arts are wholly secular in origin and practice.

[Dragonzbane76]

Please don't do that. If the truth gets out, at least half the members of this board will be involved in a group seppuku, and I will have no one to flame the hell out of.


how about the two dozen or so military mannuals we still have copies of that show martial arts, talk about how to use them to kill and make NO MENTION of buddhism, spirituallity etc?

yeah, but if we do that a few of the forum are sure to committ suicide

Holy SH!t, you mean martial arts isn't some spiritual mumbo jumbo???? :p

Any you guys need someone to lop your head off while you gut yourselves??

I'm available monday and thursdays in the evening, other than that you'll have to find someone else.

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.

[uki]

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.holy effing hell... idiotcy truly has no limits. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

that it is rampant...

[uki]

that it is rampant...and you're part of the trampled. :D

[Dragonzbane76]

glad to see your beside me in times like this... trampled right along with me :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Some warriors did seek out instruction in Zen for the purpose of training their mind. Their in general their primary purpose was to be a more effective killer.

[YouKnowWho]

止惡 (Zhi E) - Sending the devil to hell is very "spiritual" IMO.

- It's better to save 1 human life then to build 7 store Buddhism pagoda.
- If you kill one devil, you may contribute as much as saving 1,000 life.

[Boston Bagua]

very compassionate.

Let them get instant enlightenment ahead of you.

a true satori for them....

[Thomas316]

has anyone read the book "barezoot zen?" in this book the author says the push hands exercise was originally developed for meditation in the shaolin temple and the shaolin martial arts were developed from the push hands exercises. what does anyone have to say about this?

[jdhowland]

has anyone read the book "barezoot zen?" in this book the author says the push hands exercise was originally developed for meditation in the shaolin temple and the shaolin martial arts were developed from the push hands exercises. what does anyone have to say about this?

I say, ballocks!

As many others have indicated, "shaolin martial arts" derive from a continuum of military and folk arts from outside the temple. To prove that statement the author would have to give evidence that push hands were practiced as an adjunct to meditation in shaolin or any other buddhist tradition.
jd

[solo1]

Recently read "Barefoot Zen" which makes that exact argument that the movements were desgined for meditation and were not originally designed for self defense. The book was a little hard to follow but was loaded with footnotes etc etc. not sure if I bought into it but his arguments made some sense.

[jdhowland]

... seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment.

One source that comes to mind is the books by Donn F. Draeger on classical budo and bujutsu of Japan. As I recall, these are historical surveys but have some reference to older to historical works from the period in which zen began to influence the development of modern budo.

It is true that some zen/chan practitioners adapted martial arts skills as methods of correcting mental processes. Of course, adaptation is not the same as creating the arts for that purpose.

There are some old Japanese ryu that include observance of shinto or of mikkyo esoteric buddhist ritual (or both). Zen wasn't as popular for practical reasons. Among the bushi class warriors could not expect to live long enough to attain "awakening" in this life. It was magical practices, more than meditative skills, that helped them face their hard lives and the likelihood of early death.

In China, the frequent references to taoist and buddhist themes in martial arts traditions indicate cultural connections within Chinese society, but this does not mean that religious practices were the origin of these arts.

jd

[lkfmdc]

has anyone read the book "barezoot zen?" in this book the author says the push hands exercise was originally developed for meditation in the shaolin temple and the shaolin martial arts were developed from the push hands exercises. what does anyone have to say about this?

You'd think I'd seen all the funny stupid stuff there is in the world, then a post like this comes up.....

replace "meditation" with "masturbation" and "Shaolin martial arts" with "wacking off" and THEN maybe you'd be onto something :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

has anyone read the book "barezoot zen?" in this book the author says the push hands exercise was originally developed for meditation in the shaolin temple and the shaolin martial arts were developed from the push hands exercises. what does anyone have to say about this?


Recently read "Barefoot Zen" which makes that exact argument that the movements were desgined for meditation and were not originally designed for self defense. The book was a little hard to follow but was loaded with footnotes etc etc. not sure if I bought into it but his arguments made some sense.

If your forum reading skills are any indication, maybe you misunderstood the book :rolleyes:

[jdhowland]

Recently read "Barefoot Zen" which makes that exact argument that the movements were desgined for meditation and were not originally designed for self defense. The book was a little hard to follow but was loaded with footnotes etc etc. not sure if I bought into it but his arguments made some sense.

I haven't read it. Was it a rehashing of the Bodhidharma myth--teaching yoga to keep his disciples awake, and all that?

Just an observation: the title Barefoot Zen must refer to modern practice. The warriors of China and Japan typically wore shoes for training. Training barefoot indoors is a modern development in Japan.

jd

[lkfmdc]

Yoga like stuff (lihn gung, chi kung, etc) in Asia has always been both spirtual AND warrior caste stuff. The hatha we see today comes from Raja yoga the larger unit and was a system used by elites, who also trained in warfare as necessity of life. IE both the historical Buddha and Boddhidarma were Indians who had lots of martial arts training. Even if some of that training was in fact later used to help some limp monks not fall asleep while meditating (not impossible, as in India the assana DOES help with the meditative) it doesn't change the fact that for as long as humans have walked the earth they have simultaneously engaged in FIGHTING ARTS

[David Jamieson]

To be fair, the historical Buddha was Nepalese wasn't he?
Nepal has never been conquered or possessed by anyone but the Nepalese.

And Bodhidharma may very well have been Persian by some accounts. There are a couple of good arguments for this.

By the time Buddhism rolled into China, it was spread a whole lot further than just India. It was almost a thousand years old when it took root in China in and around 400-550 CE.


Also, barefoot zen is a wankbook that is full of shyte. Hippy dippy shlock of little or no value at it's best.

Don't bother with it. Read Watts, or Suzuki if you want a particularly western look at zen. :-)

[lkfmdc]

To be fair, the historical Buddha was Nepalese wasn't he?
Nepal has never been conquered or possessed by anyone but the Nepalese.

And Bodhidharma may very well have been Persian by some accounts. There are a couple of good arguments for this.



well, sue me for not being PC but INdian culture had spread well beyond what is now India's modern borders and effected most socieities including Nepal, Tibet, etc

IE my point still stands, yoga or yoga like practice which could be used for spiritual purpose was also in fact part of the standard MARTIAL training regime of elites in the region

[David Jamieson]

well, sue me for not being PC but INdian culture had spread well beyond what is now India's modern borders and effected most socieities including Nepal, Tibet, etc

IE my point still stands, yoga or yoga like practice which could be used for spiritual purpose was also in fact part of the standard MARTIAL training regime of elites in the region

I agree with your point. :)

[bawang]

hi,i just read jian jing by yu dayou, the guy that taught shaolin monks their staff in the ming dynasty
i found the word "kil" about 200 times but no mention of zen
almost every sentence has the word kill, so thats some "reliable evidence" 4 u

the only other internet post thomas316 made was asking about buying form dvds and books ,so theres not really any point to explain deeper

if u have monies to waste dont buy kung fu books and dvds ,send all your monies to me. i ned monehs

[SIFU RON]

budo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqu_tnle92u


ju jitsu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3pt56tmpq0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmtni0am-uo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83iwbseljfw&feature=related

ju do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=admqvs8vbqm&feature=related

thank you for these rare videos

ron

[Yum Cha]

To be fair, the historical Buddha was Nepalese wasn't he?
Nepal has never been conquered or possessed by anyone but the Nepalese.

And Bodhidharma may very well have been Persian by some accounts. There are a couple of good arguments for this.

By the time Buddhism rolled into China, it was spread a whole lot further than just India. It was almost a thousand years old when it took root in China in and around 400-550 CE.


Also, barefoot zen is a wankbook that is full of shyte. Hippy dippy shlock of little or no value at it's best.

Don't bother with it. Read Watts, or Suzuki if you want a particularly western look at zen. :-)

For pop zen, "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance" or Herman Hesse "Siddartha" are good reads too. I think Thomas is a younger guy?

I think you're under a couple of mis-conceptions. The first that martial arts all came from Shaolin.
The second that only Chan (Zen) practitioners studied Shaolin arts.

There are many lay arts, family styles, sport styles, personal styles that incorporate no spiritualism beyond the mental discipline, focus and motivation required to excel.

Except for Pak Mei, of course, an evil art designed to break the Shaolin temple training and murder the monks. We worship the devil and call on demons, so, that's kinda spiritual, in a way....

[Lokhopkuen]

If you started with yourself sh!t howdy I'd pay to see that!!:D


Holy SH!t, you mean martial arts isn't some spiritual mumbo jumbo???? :p

Any you guys need someone to lop your head off while you gut yourselves??

I'm available monday and thursdays in the evening, other than that you'll have to find someone else.

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.