Is Southern Praying Mantis the same style as "phoenix eye fist" kung fu/Chukka?

[LaterthanNever]

I've heard of "phoenix eye fist" kung fu and I've heard of Southern praying mantis. Somewhere I read that Southern Praying mantis doesn't have any trademarks of actual Tang Lang, but is instead the same as "Phoenix eye fist kung fu". Can someone fill me in? Thanks...

LTN

[5thBrother]

Hi

Been a few threads on that over the years I think, try search function and should bring up that info as well

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chuka = Chu Gar Southern Mantis, the one in Donn Draeger's book is a branch of Chu gar.

[LaterthanNever]

All I get is 2 responses? Maybe if I asked "Is Southern Praying mantis the same as Shaolin-Do", I'd get a reply...

[Yum Cha]

To the best of my basic, somewhat casual understanding, yes it is a style in the Southern Praying Mantis group.

I've always noticed that this Chukka seems somehow different, maybe a romanisation on Chow Gar / Chu Gar, which are more mainstream SPM, or maybe a romanisation of Hakka, referring to the race of people?

I'm sure the chinese characters would clear that up to someone who could read them.

Phoenix eye fist is common in that group of styles, family styles from southern China, many with Hakka roots.

So, like you, I've noticed it seems to be presented a little differently, but I reckon it comes from the same stuff as SPM, more of less.

That's about the best I can offer.

[AdrianK]

Somewhere I read that Southern Praying mantis doesn't have any trademarks of actual Tang Lang

Its very efficient and from what I've experienced of northern mantis, it has little in common with it.

As for the "actual" tang lang, neither is "actual", one came from the north, one from the south. They are what they are and I don't believe they have any common ancestry.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jook lum mantis is probably the most "mantis" of all the SPM systems.

[TenTigers]

I really don't see Lum Wing-Fay's JL as being a mantis at all. There is much more snake-like movement in it. Chung Yel-Chung was called "The Poison Snake," the spear and staff are refferred to as the poison snake, the knives move like a serpent, they refer to their hands as snakes, and the mindset is that of a snake. The body coils and moves very snake-like. And the energy ripples like a snake.

In one of the popular stories of its origin, it says that the style took the name Southern Mantis to hide its origins from the Ching.

Let me add, that I have only been practicing JL for a few years. I am in no way an authority, and that this is my own opinion, based on my own personal findings and theory, However, I think if we dig a little deeper, more info about this little-known style will emerge.
Just remember folks-ya heard it here first!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really don't see Lum Wing-Fay's JL as being a mantis at all. There is much more snake-like movement in it. Chung Yel-Chung was called "The Poison Snake," the spear and staff are refferred to as the poison snake, the knives move like a serpent, they refer to their hands as snakes, and the mindset is that of a snake. The body coils and moves very snake-like. And the energy ripples like a snake.

In one of the popular stories of its origin, it says that the style took the name Southern Mantis to hide its origins from the Ching.

Let me add, that I have only been practicing JL for a few years. I am in no way an authority, and that this is my own opinion, based on my own personal findings and theory, However, I think if we dig a little deeper, more info about this little-known style will emerge.
Just remember folks-ya heard it here first!

You may have a point, I put mantis in "" because while it looks more "animalistic" than the other branches, Chow Gar for example, it certainly doesn't look northern mantis like.
Snake eh?
Or dragon perhaps...

[LaterthanNever]

ok--well let me clarify the original question. I'm talking about the "phoenix eye fist" style that you see in the book by Master Cheong Cheng Leong. Someone told me that "Southern Praying mantis" IS in fact the phoneix eye style since the founders of the style wanted to "hide it" from being displayed lest they be discovered by the Manchus and jailed or worse.

Can anyone comment? Hope that clarifies...

[Boston Bagua]

It is not the exact system, but it shares many similar moves, and material. It was taken to that part of the world and it evolved as any arts does.

Chuka, and the characters(Hanzi) used for it are the same as Chu Gar, The house of Chu.

[David Jamieson]

Chu Family. Having read the book, it appears to be a collective of sil lum style and other specialized methods that form it's own style separate from the archetypal systems.

[Sam]

Grand Master Lam Sang's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee reflects the characteristics of the Praying Mantis. It contains the Mantis body which has a slight lean. The qualities of eating, spiting, sinking, and floating which come from the Mantis. Center line and defensive elbow positioning/movement. Sudden "shock" energy and movement.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am not certain, but this looks to be southern mantis. The stance is too wide and the arms are wasting energy.

[Yum Cha]

Chuka, and the characters(Hanzi) used for it are the same as Chu Gar, The house of Chu.


Thanks Dale.

[AdrianK]

I am not certain, but this looks to be southern mantis. The stance is too wide and the arms are wasting energy.

I think the stance is rather comfortable and if boxing has shown us anything, its that people can be incredibly mobile in almost as wide a stance as they want.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think the stance is rather comfortable and if boxing has shown us anything, its that people can be incredibly mobile in almost as wide a stance as they want.


I am going to assume that you did not view the picture, which was meant as a joke. However, having done some serious boxing through our local boys club as a youth, I find it to be severely limited in it's scope. But then again, it is a sport form as well. I have noticed though that most everyone will attempt to box when they get into a fight. I guess it is the most common fighting form that most people have watched or seen, so it would be natural to attempt to copy it. When boxing, I found that spreading my feet more than shoulder width reduced my ability to move as quickly. And when actually fighting, I also found that if I had my feet spread more than shoulder width I could not kick as easily and would tend to telegraph my moves. Most people kick with the rear foot, which would have to move a great distance, and a person would have to shift to the front foot to retain any sort of balance. Just lifting the rear foot would make you fall back on your behind. And trying to kick with the front foot would not have the reach and again you would fall forward. You would also have to shift your weight to the rear foot, taking you back out of decent kicking range. I am not impressed with the wide stance at all. I wished everyone would use a really wide stance.

LCP

[Steeeve]

the chuka or pheonix eye fist is more near of the southern white crane fei he flying crane of malaysia....:)

[chusauli]

I am not certain, but this looks to be southern mantis. The stance is too wide and the arms are wasting energy.

No, I think that is fake Mantis...it looks like the person has not been schooled and trying to make up a new form... :)

[Steeeve]

:confused::confused::confused:
whats u mean mr Chu....we have to talk about wing chun ;)

[AdrianK]

I am going to assume that you did not view the picture, which was meant as a joke.

Oh I viewed the pic, I thought your comment was meant as a critique of the stance in general, not of that specific pic.



However, having done some serious boxing through our local boys club as a youth, I find it to be severely limited in it's scope. But then again, it is a sport form as well.

Boxing at a local boys club, I apologize, it is not anywhere near the level of professional boxing gyms. Its like saying you know wing chun because you learned from a newb student :) Pro gyms are much more demanding, much more refined.



I have noticed though that most everyone will attempt to box when they get into a fight. I guess it is the most common fighting form that most people have watched or seen, so it would be natural to attempt to copy it.

Depends on your area I guess. I've always seen and been in street fights with people who wanted to wrestle me. Only a couple ppl have tried to slug with me.



When boxing, I found that spreading my feet more than shoulder width reduced my ability to move as quickly. And when actually fighting, I also found that if I had my feet spread more than shoulder width I could not kick as easily and would tend to telegraph my moves.

Youre putting the blame on the stance. In reality, your quickness depends more on the muscles developed and your coordination. Its up to you to find the best way to move in any given stance, I hardly think there is a balanced position that cannot, with hard training, be easily shifted almost as quick as any other stance.



Most people kick with the rear foot, which would have to move a great distance, and a person would have to shift to the front foot to retain any sort of balance.

Theoretically, do you realize how quickly the shift in stance to a better stance for kicking can be made though? It can be made almost instantaneous.

[TenTigers]

Hey "Uncle" Sam,
Check out the dynamic tension thread here, There is alot of stuff discussing Sam Bo Ging. Your contribution would be very appreciated in this area!

[panthermantis]

the chuka or pheonix eye fist is more near of the southern white crane fei he flying crane of malaysia....:)

You are correct as far as the author of the Phoenix eye fist book said.

[panthermantis]

You are correct as far as the author of the Phoenix eye fist book said.

I meant to say its southern praying mantis mixed with some white crane

[TenTigers]

Fukien White Crane and Five Ancestors seems to be a core in influencing alot of the Hakka fists. There are Crane sets that look extremely similar to SPM.
What do you think was the core style that gave birth to Southern Mantis?

[Steeeve]

well

spm pak mei and dragon lung ying seem to be fromm the same core ......southern white crane and wing chun seem to have the same source:)

[Steeeve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn8xYYh6IXg&feature=related

here fukien white crane ....flying crane fei he from malaysia....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fukien White Crane and Five Ancestors seems to be a core in influencing alot of the Hakka fists. There are Crane sets that look extremely similar to SPM.
What do you think was the core style that gave birth to Southern Mantis?

From the Macao line that I was exposed too, it seems that Dragon (southern), if it was not the origin, had the greatest influence.

[Steeeve]

dragon style seem to stay the same but the pak mei seem to have two version the HK style and the Fukien ....the Hk is a offshoot of the dragon style ...dragon style is probably the core of the hakka;)

[TenTigers]

Someone correct me on this, as I don't quite recall, but I believe Lam Sang, Chun Lai Chuen, and Lam Yui Kwai were all aquainted with each other, and all studied with a Monk. Might have been Lee Siem Si?
(where's Sam, Doc Stier, and Mantis 108, and Jo when ya need them?)

[Yum Cha]

Hi guys,
We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff, - the three masters were contemporary, and there was the power dynamic added from Southern White Crane, the 'faat ging'.

The external stuff is all mostly hakka family style stuff. Loong Ying has more heavy power, Pak Mei and SPM are more 'springy' - SPM uses dynamic tension, Pak Mei uses hyper extension to get there. The end result is rather similar to my superficial examination.

Yes, Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yeu Gwai grew up studying together, and shared a kwoon as young men. They studied from Lam's father, I believe, who studied from a monk "Hoi Fung Sim Si" according to my Dutch mates.

The SPM link, which I can't remember exactly, is contemporary. Perhaps someone else can chip in. 1900 to 1930s is the period in question.

[Steeeve]

Whats about Yau kung mun a blend of pak mei with dragon ;)a little bit of spm .....
its not whos right its whos left :D

[jo]

Someone correct me on this, as I don't quite recall, but I believe Lam Sang, Chun Lai Chuen, and Lam Yui Kwai were all aquainted with each other, and all studied with a Monk. Might have been Lee Siem Si?
(where's Sam, Doc Stier, and Mantis 108, and Jo when ya need them?)

Why don't you ask your teacher? :rolleyes:

-jo

[jo]

Whats about Yau kung mun a blend of pak mei with dragon ;)a little bit of spm .....
its not whos right its whos left :D

And there are those who can use both the right and left equally.

-jo

[TenTigers]

Why don't you ask your teacher? :rolleyes:

-jo
don't even go there, jo. >:-p "thppppppp!" ;-) Anyone who knows me, or has had any interaction with me knows I am always researching. That is not a reflection on my teachers, or myself, but on those don't look deeply into their art's origins..
You and I both know that here are many versions of the origins of the style. Each line has their own story, We have one, but I am interested in seeing the other versions. Even though there are others, each one may have a common thread.

[kungCopper]

Hey lets make this easy, TT what has your teacher told you about the origins, or what has his teacher told him on the origins of this art? I too am always reasearching. I heard this is the art someone used to kill Hung Hei Goon. I was told this is why Wong Kay Ying sent his son to learn Iron wire as that is the only technique that can close off the points attacked in the south mantis forms.
Also I heard Jook Lum temple was started by two famous south shaolin monks, one was San Te (Sam Dat). Of course this is just what I was told.

[LaterthanNever]

Yum Cha,

Thanks for the input. But..

"We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff"

That wasn't my question...

What if I rephrased it this way..Does anyone teach the "phoenix eye fist" system in the USA? If so..where? Thanks..

[chusauli]

Hey lets make this easy, TT what has your teacher told you about the origins, or what has his teacher told him on the origins of this art? I too am always reasearching. I heard this is the art someone used to kill Hung Hei Goon. I was told this is why Wong Kay Ying sent his son to learn Iron wire as that is the only technique that can close off the points attacked in the south mantis forms.
Also I heard Jook Lum temple was started by two famous south shaolin monks, one was San Te (Sam Dat). Of course this is just what I was told.

Ah yes, great kung fu history from Kung Fu Theatre, courtesy of Shaw Bros. LOL!

[Yum Cha]

Yum Cha,

Thanks for the input. But..

"We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff"

That wasn't my question...

What if I rephrased it this way..Does anyone teach the "phoenix eye fist" system in the USA? If so..where? Thanks..

If my comment doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you should consider I was responding to someone else instead?:D

Good luck with your search...

[jo]

As an oral tradition, the stories have been changed over time by people for various reasons.

Thats just human nature. ;)

-jo

[kungCopper]

Yeah there seems to be a lot of "ORAL" traditions in CMA.

Now if only this guy TT could share his teachers story, maybe we can compare all of our Shaw Brothers epics :) and move this thread. I would guess we all agree that Pheonix eye fist (Chu ga) is not the same as Southern Mantis (Chu/Chow Gar). Now lets get to JookLum discussion, which is what this thread was derailed for.

Is it Snake or is it Mantis? Do I train or type?

[TenTigers]

awright, copper. (said in my best Bogie impression) good idea.
This weekend, I am studying Zheng-Gu Tui-Na, so I don't have the time to wade through all the links. But I will when I get back.
In the meantime, if anyone else would like to post some versions, all the better.
As Jo said, they are only oral traditions, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but it would be interesting (to me, at least) to see common threads.

[kungCopper]

Okay TT, thats medicine a whole other subject, maybe for kung fu medicine forum, now how about answering, whats your schools take on Jook Lum as orally given to you? This way we can ALL compare, to see if there are common threads. By the way who do you study from? If your proud enough to answer. When you reveal who you study from, I too will do the same.

[TenTigers]

this is a compilation from several Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai sites. Each version is basically the same, and is basically the version I was told, although each one has one or two details here and there.

Sam Dart/Sum Dot, a Monk from Tibet stayed at Fukien Siu-Lum Ji before founding Jook Lum Ji, on Lung Fu San in the 1800s.(one source says earlier, I was told 1860's) He was apparently also known as Hung Mei Do Yan, meaning the Red Eyebrow Daoist. His style was Nam Tong Long -Southern Mantis.
Sam Dot taught a fellow Monk, Lee Siem Si-who by some sources was also known as Hung Mui-Red Plum Flower Monk. Siem is Cantonese for Chan, or Zen.
Lee Siem Si taught Chung Yu Chang/Chung Yel Jung, a layman follower at Jook Lum Ji. Chung Yu Chang's nickname was "The Poison Snake." According to one source, he was also the first of the Guangdong Sup Fu.
Lee Siem came to Hong Kong in the 1920's to supervise the rebuilding of the Jook Lum Temple of Hong Kong (Kowloon today) and to build another temple in Macao. According to the late Grandmaster Lum Wing Fay (Lum Sang) (1910-1992) Lee Siem was well over 100 years old. The old monk took one of Chung Yu Chang's youngest students, Lum Wing Fay, as a traveling companion and aide. Lum Wing Fay accompanied Lee Siem for seven years.

[TenTigers]

the frustrating thing is, I can't seem to be able to find out anything about Sam Dart's Gung-Fu. What was it before it evolved into Mantis?
It's like Adam and Eve, rather than Darwin.
(jeez, now I'm gonna pizz off the Christians!):rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

the frustrating thing is, I can't seem to be able to find out anything about Sam Dart's Gung-Fu. What was it before it evolved into Mantis?
It's like Adam and Eve, rather than Darwin.
(jeez, now I'm gonna pizz off the Christians!):rolleyes:

Dude, does it matter?
Truly?
In the end YOUR SPM will not be your sifu's SPM, juts like his wasn't his sifu's and so forth.
Can you make it work for yourself?
All the you bring into SPM will effect your SPM, the core may still be "recognizable" but the "style" may not be.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Lineage? BAH !
Effectiveness.

[TenTigers]

Dude, does it matter?
Truly?
.
Hey, I couldn't care if my teacher made it up yesterday. It is truly an amazing system.
I just like digging. It's like finding old recordings of Elmore James to hear the beginnings of what influenced Clapton and Duane Allmann.
It's for my own curiosity, enrichment and enjoyment.

Also, it may unravel some other mysteries about my Hung Kuen. Just connecting the "Dots"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I couldn't care if my teacher made it up yesterday. It is truly an amazing system.
I just like digging. It's like finding old recordings of Elmore James to hear the beginnings of what influenced Clapton and Duane Allmann.
It's for my own curiosity, enrichment and enjoyment.

Also, it may unravel some other mysteries about my Hung Kuen. Just connecting the "Dots"

I understand that, but it may be an exercise in futility, oral traditions are dubious at best and can be outright lies at worse.
Unless we invent a time machine, we will never know for sure.
I am pretty sure there was a core system that the southern systems came from, perhaps a couple even, but the simple fact that other styles developed their own "flavour" should tell us a great deal.